I got into refereeing when I was a blue belt because I think it does help you to develop your understanding about the sport. You know, we're not trying to like, game it by making sure you get your points or whatever, but understanding how points are given. So when points are given, making sure that you, you get your points.
So like when you sort of see white belts spar or even when you see white belts compete, you know, like, especially when you see kids matches, like they might go top to bottom, top to bottom, top to bottom, but. But did they ever stop in the points scoring position? Hey guys, welcome to another episode of the White Basement podcast. Follow the show on Instagram, find us on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, and if you want to watch head over to Rumble, the home of free speech on video.
Check out our sponsors to support us. And please do share the show. It helps us to grow. My guest today is Jack Burrell, member of the High Council of Wizards at the Resistance in Barnet. Jack is a referee, competitor, teacher, destroyer of knees and locker of squirrels. Although he had never met Peanut RIP Jack, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me, Jason. Finally I've managed to get you on after many months of bending your ear.
I think I'm probably a little bit too self conscious about sort of video and audio, but I thought I'd make the effort and come down and answer a few questions. Yeah, share your knowledge with the Jiu Jitsu community. So yeah, I mean, normally I kind of start off asking people about their journey into Jiu jitsu. Was it, was it your first martial art? I did a little bit of kickboxing when I was so at secondary school, but just during pe.
I don't know if I did a little bit of boxing beforehand or not, but I started jiu jitsu at 27, so not, not too early, not too late. I wish I had started it many years earlier. In fact, I had gone to a sort of trial lesson about five years before that and I just been a bit put off. I didn't enjoy it the first time I tried it. Whereas like most people once have experienced Jiu Jitsu that they're sort of in for good, but I think it was just.
It's the people that you meet and the first sort of session you go to isn't always going to be right for you. It's the gym that's not right for you, not necessarily the sport. Yeah, yeah. So where was that first one? Can you remember? Yeah, that was London Fight Factory. Okay, so do you think just because it was like A big. Yeah, so hectic. I think it was. It was. It was down in Old Street. They were sort of quite close to Old street and it was this really old building, but it was.
It was quite nice. So old school training environment. I think it was also just how grumpy the black belt was and he wasn't even teaching the class. The class was really nice. It was like Armbars from Mount, so, like really classic stuff. But. So it came out afterwards and just wanted to ask a few questions to try and find out more about the sport. And the typical Brazilian, a little bit turned off and he's probably a lovely guy, but just in a bad mood. And I think a lot of black belts are.
You're there on the mat every day and you probably heard these questions like a thousand times and like, if it's your first time, I'm probably not even phrasing the question in a way that makes sense to him. So, yeah, it's probably a little bit grumpy with me or just indifferent. And I was like, oh, no, I'm not going back there again. So was that literally one lesson? Yeah, it was one class and then I didn't train. Yeah, about four or five years. So what was.
What was the kind of catalyst for you to go back again? Well, I had a friend who trained, or he still does train. He comes down to the Resistance on a Tuesday night for my classes. He's a black now. He's called Daniel Key. And I'd known him since I was sort of in secondary school. And he'd started training when he was at university, so he was in Imperial. And I think he started training with Roger Brooking. It was like a Brazilian who was over here. It's like one of.
One of the first sort of guys training and teaching in London. And then he moved over to Fights Fight Factory. And so he'd always talk about it a lot and know sort of occasionally sort of demonstrate sort of a few moves at parties and try and drunkenly, drunkly put him in a headlock and end up on the floor or something and say, oh, this isn't going quite how I planned. So he convinced me to go along and, yeah, so I went down to his gym. So he was there for a number of years.
But, yeah, I just didn't click with me. And then when I got back into it, I think there was a. A brown belt at the time called Gerard Khan who was teaching in Bounds Green. I think they started in Muzzle Hill with Joel and do you know, Foreheads to Teach Ali Pali. Yeah. So these guys, they'd started in Muzzle Hill, which is where I was living, or I was living in the Archway and moved to Muslim Hill. So it was convenient for me, like a bus rides away from my house.
It was like in a, like a school, like school gym. So where you get the mounts out at the beginning of the session, Everyone puts them away at the end. But yeah, once I started there and Yousef was there as well, the first sort of. So Yousef is a black belt at the Resistance. He was there on my first ever class, I think. I don't know if he was a blue belt at the time or sort of like a three or four stripe white belt. So yeah, I kind of end up getting on with him.
And it was a good training environment. No one was too serious. So being so like fairly athletic at the time, so 27 wanted to prove things. I turn up regularly, try and pick up as much as I could. And then eventually they moved. They ended up having to leave the, the gym in Bounds Green and move over to Finchley Central. And it was a really weird environment. It's like similar to the old Resistance place. It was in an office block but like in a quite a small room.
And at that point I just didn't feel like it was right for me anymore. There was a few things like they'd like leave there GI jackets out on a radiator after a session and then you, you come back to the next one and they'd be putting the ghee jacket on from the. I thought, I really don't need that. And I think also like, you know, my social life was sort of going out and sort of going to gigs a lot of the time.
And so like, yeah, if you're going to a place that's not a full time academy, they might be only teaching like two, three times a week. And if that's the case, then you're missing like a Wednesday because you're going out, you're seeing your friends, then you're training like once a week. It's not enough to progress.
So it was at that sort of time that I sort of started looking around, you know, what can I find that's a little bit more professional, that's got people who are training on a regular basis and to try and improve that level. And was that, that was when you found Mill Hill? Yes. Yeah. So Mill Hill was. I kind of went and looked in, did some research. I mean I was kind of looking. I mean there was still a good number of gyms at the time, you know, Roger Gracie.
So on the other side of London, the same with Carlson, Gracie. So I couldn't really make that commitment to travel. I mean, Mill Hill still took me like 40, 45 minutes to get there and back. I kind of liked the fact that I was having to make some sort of sacrifice in order to get there. Because you were still young. Ish. Yeah, yeah. I didn't have the family. Unless you want to make the sacrifices. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So. So I think when I. When I got to Mill Hill, which must have been like 2017 or something, you were already there. Right. What can you remember what? Yeah, I started at Mill Hill, I think in 2012. About August 2012. Okay. Yeah, so that was way before then. Yeah. So just after the Olympics, I moved to Mill Hill, I believe. And did you, you went to Mill Hill as a white belt or did you? I did, yeah.
So I've been training for a number of months, but I was still a white belt when I moved to Mill Hill. And yeah, they were really nice and really welcoming to me, but also sort of realized that, yeah, I had, I did have a basis to my training. So I think within a few months of being there, like I was going off for a trip to Birmingham and I wanted to visit Braun and they had like one of these rules where you can only spar if you're a three strike white belt.
Which, I mean, I don't know what you think of that, but it's. I had zero strikes on my belt at the time because I'd only been at Mill Hill for a few months. I sort of went to Nick and sort of said this and he was like, yeah. And about a week later he put the three strikes on me. Good. Good old Nick. Yeah, yeah. Nick would always. Anything to facilitate your training, right? Yeah. If you need to get some stripes or get a lift or whatever, sleep on the mat or something. Oh, yeah.
I mean, no problem. If it wasn't for him giving me lifts, I probably wouldn't have stuck with it to the extent that I did. Yeah, I mean, I say 45 minutes there on the bus, but he'd give me a lift back. So pretty much every night to Finchley Central because otherwise you have to get the old place. You had to get a bus to Mill Hill east, which is like one of these weird tube stations that only like. Yeah, it's a little. Yeah, it's like a horror film. Right. Like you get stranded at Mill hill East.
Yeah. One train out of every 10 or whatever. That's It, I mean, and it's changed a lot. Like when, when we were getting the. There was. It was kind of like nothing around. Now you go there and there's all these big flats so like all over the place. They probably run the trains a little bit more frequently now. There's all those people there.
Yeah. I mean, I can remember because I grew up in East Finchley and you know, at various times when I was in London, going in and out of London regularly and you know, I remember like looking on the trains and you know, is it High Barnett Edgeware? High Barnett Edgeware High Barnett Mill Hill. Yeah, yeah. One out of one out of seven or eight or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, I think, you know, maybe, maybe at the beginning because you're super kind of enthusiastic and motivated.
You don't, like, you say you don't mind that you've actually got to kind of make that journey, but I mean, as time goes on, having an easy commute to and from training. Yeah. Makes it a lot more sustainable. Yeah. Because you know, you could want to do an. Or an hour and a half glass, whatever if you've got 45 minutes each end. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like two and a half, three hour experience for an hour hour on the mat. Yeah, of course, yeah. Being. So are you still in Musril Hill now?
No, no, now I'm in Arnus Grove kind of area. Okay. On the Piccadilly line. But you. But normally for here you drive up. Yeah, I drive now. So you just go through New Southgate that way, East Barnett, whatever and. Yeah, yeah, so that's, that's not too bad. So when you came over to Mill Hill, did you, did you bring Yousef with you or he was already coming or. No, no, separate things. I think I convinced him to come after you. Yeah. After I'd left.
So I, I sort of told him that I'm going and then sort of probably didn't see him for, for a month or two. And then I think he sort of started turning up. I don't know if he was going to the daytime classes or whatever, but then he sort of sent me a message. Oh yeah, I'm. I'm on board now. So it was quite nice to sort of bring him over. Yeah. And is there any. Did you bring anyone else up from there or it was just you two?
No, I mean, I think Joel had already sort of left so that training group before I'd. I'd joined there. So he was already at Mill Hill. But no, I think the others who were there so far had then sort of started this Alexandra park or Alexandra Palace, Brazilian jiu jitsu, which is still going on. And I think Chris Hearn sort of does sort of seminars and stuff for them now. Is that Yousef teaches sometimes there? I believe so, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Because I see him pop up on Instagram here and there that he's guest instructor or whatever. Yeah. So you have competed a lot. Yes. When did that. When did you. Did, you know, as soon as you got on the mat. Right. I want to work towards competing or what was the kind of switch. I think it sort of didn't become a goal until, you know, probably about eight, nine months into training. I think I did my first competition while I was still training in Bound screen. It was like in Seni.
It was like a martial arts show. Yeah. A few people have mentioned. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it was either like a London cup or something. I think. I think Nick Brooks was actually running that competition at this martial arts show. But I went to this competition and I got disqualified in my first match. I think it was probably a reaping of the knee, but I kind of tried to do like a WWE move, like a Boston Crab. So I tried to turn them over and sit back on the leg. Oh, yeah. Disqualified.
Oh. But it's quite funny because that was. It was like a white belt middleweight at the time, and the person who won that division was Tom Reynolds, who, like, grew up to be a giant. Went on to be 200 kilos. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I got to black belt long before he did because he had quite a long break. But I always sort of thought. Thought back. Yeah. If he hadn't stopped, he would have been fantastic. Yeah, He's. He's a couple of years on his black belt now, right?
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's a. That's a intense gym. Right. I see the. See their pictures. Yeah, I believe so. I mean, I've gone along to a couple of the open mats and stuff, and I've gone to the gradings. But the best roles I've had are, like, people who are brought together by their ethos. So, you know, what's that guy Chris, with the long hair? Not sure I remember. I remember Ed from Mill Hill. Yeah. Silver, obviously. Yeah. Tom Reynolds. And then who's the Asian guy? Sikh guy. Dipesh.
No, not depression. Yeah. No, There was another young guy who I always used to roll with. Okay. And they were. I think they were more like daytime. Yeah. I can't remember his name. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. So, yeah, you. So you did. You went to Seny, got DQ for Boston Crab. Yeah. And. But you were hooked. Yeah, I think so. And so probably a few months later. And when I was at Mill Hill, I kind of wanted to ask permission, almost like, do you think I'm ready to do this again?
And they said, yeah, go for it. And I think it's the kind of thing that I tell people when they first want to compete, is that you go to competition, you win or you lose. You're probably going to lose. But it's the mentality thing you need to. I want to sort of see that someone's ready to lose or ready, like to take it on board when they lose and use it as a learning tool. And I think that's. That's kind of all I did whenever I lost matches.
So I've done north of 200 matches, most of which probably at blue belt and purple belt. I was like competing like once a month at blue belt. And, you know, I've won 150 odd matches, but I've lost probably about 100 matches. But every time I. If I'm competing once a month, and I know I've got like two weeks to, you know, kind of broaden my game, one week to focus it, and then like after the competition, you've got a bunch of points to develop from.
So I know I've got Americana, like twice in my last two competitions. I need to work on how I can defend this. So I think it really is a brilliant development tool. And so would you. If we take that as like a specific example, would you get back in off the comp and go straight to instructor, whoever that is, and say, this is the problem that I had, or would you just sort of try to figure out, or you're watching YouTube or you're asking other people.
What would be your process of addressing those lessons? I mean, I think you got to ask questions occasionally, but you kind of find the right time to do it. Obviously not in the middle of a class because there's always something else going on. But, yeah, I mean, I think not just instructors, but I think at Mill Hill, we had such a good group of guys to work and learn from.
So Mike Hawkins, who's one of the other or is the main instructor at the Resistance, probably my main training partner as I developed probably not a blue, but purple, brown and black belt. So working with guys like him, others brown or black belts, Ed, Stan Strauss, asking them questions and then in the classes, kind of like focusing on, you Know how I can adapt what we were working on to my game?
So, yeah, I think sort of getting into those kind of like sparring sort of like groups and so focusing in there. But, yeah, just having the conversations, being open to taking information from everybody, but then also just concentrating on how you can apply it for your own game. I think everything's about building systems within Jiu Jitsu and adding on pieces. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's.
Maybe we can kind of drill down a bit into that, because I think what I noticed with you when I train with you is that you've. You, You. You seem to have a very sort of good comprehension of Jiu Jitsu in the hole and the sub systems and the sub positions and whatever. Like, you know, today, for example, when we were rolling, I mean, I was just kind of like rolling around. There's the.
There's the odd time when I'm thinking, oh, if I get that sleeve, I can play this position, or when I get here, if I turn backwards, I can go for a foot lock or whatever. But a lot of the time I'm just feeling like, okay, left is nothing. Let me go right, or, you know, let me move forward and then try to turn or whatever. And then you. You would generally afterwards say to me, like, oh, this donkey God position has these problems and it has these, you know, options and whatever.
Yeah. And I'm like, I barely was aware that that even happened. Yeah. Were you. Did you always find that you had that. That kind of brain and that kind of mental model, or is that just kind of developed or you tried to develop over time? Because it can. Jiu Jitsu can be very much like at the beginning, like you're in a washing machine. It just these things going on all over the place. And I certainly found for the first six to 12 months, I literally just.
I didn't really have a clue what was going on. Yeah, whatever decision I was making, I was like, shit, that's completely wrong. And then, let me do this. No, that don't work either. Whereas some people seem to have a bit more of a. Like a better comprehension of the movement patterns and positions. And was that like a natural thing for you, or is that just something that you built? I think you kind of have to build on it and it comes over time.
So I kind of started off developing, like, my triangle and sort of like how I can get into that position from mainly closed guard, but from other positions as well. And then, you know, problem solving around that. Like, every time someone would escape my Triangle was like, well, I take that as a personal sort of front. Like, they shouldn't be doing that and what's going wrong there?
So every time it does go wrong, especially in competition, you break it down, you analyze it, and so you try and correct those problems. But, I mean, I think the game I have now is, you know, a little bit more relaxed at the gym. I'm trying to, like, work through the problems. I'm trying to automate as much as possible. I think that. And that's what you only you get over time. The more you have to think about something, the harder it is. Yeah, I mean, I don't.
I don't play a musical instrument, but I guess it's a bit like that often. Language. Yeah, language. Yeah. I can't speak a second language, but yeah, I guess it is the same thing where you just build these kind of patterns where as soon as you feel something, you know, your body knows. Okay, you going to turn here and turn there. Yeah. And all of that.
But. And I guess, you know, one of the keys then is having, like, even if it's a small group, a decent bunch of kind of training partners who you can workshop stuff with and kind of, you know, sort through problems and have kind of the bodies to work with. You know, people who are not just like, I need to smash Jack every time I roll with him. They're kind of like, no, I can't see that you're trying to work triangle defense or whatever.
So I'm going to just keep trying to throw triangles up here and there and here and there and, you know, to allow you to. Yeah. I mean, I think even outside of jiu jitsu, I think the developer of almost any skill, like, needs to come from not just a teacher instruction, but from a peer group. I think having people who are developing along the same lines of you and asking you those kind of questions, either actual questions or physical questions on the mat. But that's.
That's almost more important than just having the instruction. And that's why, like, a club is just as important and the things that go into a club is just important as the teacher. Yeah. I mean, when Dave Numa was in, he said it's more important to be a good student than to have a good teacher. You know what he's like? He's like, I will repeat, it's more important. But it's a. It's a good. It's a good concept, you know, that you're kind of responsible for your learning.
Yeah. And the teacher maybe is more of a guide, you know, a mentor. You're trying to bring everybody up. Yeah. But, yeah, like, to really improve you kind of. Yeah, everyone's got to bring each other up as well. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, I think the thing with Jiu jitsu that, that it can often feel like you're, you're not really improving because everybody's getting better.
So you still struggle with the people that you struggled with and you can still beat the people that you could be to it. To a degree. Yeah. Because everybody is, is moving forwards and then it's only when you get new people coming in and then you realize, oh, I can, I can hang with people that are bigger than me because I, I did learn something. I do understand some positions I do know which, you know, physical decisions to make here and there.
Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a good thing. So in terms of, of competition, it's, it's been, it's been quite mixed opinions with the people that I've had in as to you should compete or you don't have to compete or you should compete a little bit, should compete regularly or you have to compete to. To get belts. What's your sort of current thinking? My current thinking is competitions cost far too much money and recently very expensive. Right.
I mean, I don't know if I'd be able to get the same level of experience that I did have if I was doing it now. If you're charging 80 quid a competition, how am I going to be competing once a month? How much were they initially? I mean, you could compete for. Yeah, like 20, 30. Like 30 quid. Yeah. I mean, I think when, when I started, the English was like 30 quid. And, yeah, English Open now is probably 100 pound. I think you get in early. It's about 80 quid. Right.
But I mean, last year, because I refereed at the English for a long, long time and they'd normally like, let me compete at the same time as I was refereeing. So I hadn't, hadn't paid for it for a while, probably, since it was about 40, 45 quid. And I was having a look and I made the mistake. I thought, oh, this must be the late entry price. And it was the early entry price. I mean, it is a great competition, I think. So I'm not, I'm not so. But it's saying anything about the cost of everything.
The cost of everything. Everything. Now you have to kind of be a little bit more kind of I don't know. Steadfast in. I really want to do that. Or buy that or eat that. Yeah. Or drink that. Because everything is expensive. Yeah, we. What did we get? Oh, yeah, we went. We just went recently to Egypt for a few days and as usual, you know, we were getting on the. We're on EasyJet. We're getting on the plane to come back. It was like, let's get some crisps. We'll take them on with us. And take this.
And you sit down, you're like, should we just get, like a little drink? So we got two of those little bottles of whiskey, you know, the one, two. One, maybe the two shots or whatever they are. Yeah. Two little cans of ginger ale and one little bag of kind of peanut things. £19, something. Yeah, yeah. It's like, fuck, man. It's like they're on holiday. If you're on holiday, they can rip you off. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're. You're kind of.
And the Egypt flight is about six and a half hours. So, you know, you're kind of like, a drink will help me kind of nod off and just get through the. Get through the flight. But, yeah, I mean, everything. Everything now is. Is expensive. The best part of 100 quid, because you got to get there and back. Train fare or petrol or park. I mean, people paying hotels to stay overnight obviously had, like, people doing that.
And then competitions get canceled or something, and then, you know, they're not getting that money back. Yeah. Or you get there and you get like one, you get more. That's the other thing, because there are so many more competitions. Yeah. The kind of. The age and the weight is spread out over a broader number and you're just not getting the fights. I mean, I do think that competition is really important. I think for me, it's puzzle solving, it's goal setting. Yeah. I got something to focus on.
I know that I need to turn up three times or four times this week. I mean, when I was doing. I mean, the other thing that I have is all these spreadsheets I was using to help me sort of develop. So I was tracking my hours over blue belt, purple belt, beginning of brown belt, probably up until sort of COVID And then I lost track of it. Or. And was. Was that just hours on the mat or were you saying hours of drilling? Yeah, it was mainly hours on the mat.
So I was probably going for quantity over quality. I didn't really have. I wasn't having a focus on refining things to that degree. But, I mean, I, I, at purple belt, I did about a thousand hours. Over a thousand hours at purple belt. So people sort of say you might do what, six hours in a week or more? I mean, I've got some weeks. I did 12 hours in a week or, I mean, so that's. Yes, two years, two and a half years, something like that.
I suppose if you're, if you're on the mat a lot, that's, that's, yeah. And so have you, have you calculated your total number of hours? Because let's say 10,000 hours to be an expert, right? No, I didn't do that because I didn't start tracking when I was a white belt and then I lost track when I was a brown belt. But kind of that blue belt, purple belt sort of phase. I had several thousand hours tracked on my spreadsheets. So you probably getting close to 10,000 possibly.
I mean I don't, I don't manage as many anymore. So I, I do these days I teach at the university. I work out on a Monday. Like it's literally 40 minutes to probably at one one student at most it's like three or four students. So I mean they get, they're getting a good deal. Well, it is. But like basically privates work best when you've got six months or 12 months of JIU jitsu on your belt.
The hard thing teaching people who have never trained before from scratch is that if there's any one of them, they've got no one to watch it on it. And so it depends what kind of learner you are. Yeah, so like me sort of trying to show an armbar and you're experiencing being armbar and you're not getting it from all these angles. So it's tricky from that respect. But yeah, so I do that on a Monday that I teach the resistance on a Tuesday night.
But you know, if there's an odd number of people, I might not spa. I do Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday sparring, you know, with normally good level guys trying to get in as many rounds as possible. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's a, I think probably at black belt it's a difficult balance between teaching and training. I think it's quite, I assume it's quite difficult to kind of to focus on both.
So I mean, it's not really an exact analogy, but at work they've asked me many years to take a pre reg optometrist and I'm always like, I don't want one. Yeah, I just want to do my job. Like I can't really focus on looking after somebody else and checking their patients and answering questions or whatever. And seeing my patients, like, it's just a bit too much for me to be sort of committed to both.
And I think maybe it's a similar thing where once you start to teach, you know, kind of your whole focus is spread in two different directions because training, and certainly training to be competing on some kind of regular basis. Selfish is probably the wrong word, but you're like, you're doing your own thing, right? Your own problem solving and your own game plan and your own fitness and. And cardio and getting your rounds in and whatever.
Whereas teaching, I mean, like, you say odd number, your training with people, even number, you're sitting on the side and just talking. You know, you just got to kind of go with what the class dynamics are. I'm much nicer to roll with when it's me when I'm teaching a class than when I am on a sparring session as well. Yeah, you want to facilitate their growth and. Yeah. Not break people down physically or emotionally. I mean, not that I try and do that in regular sparring, but. But you do.
I mean, again, I've talked about this a few times. Like, I can remember the first couple of times, 2, 3, 4, 5 times when I rolled, when people just put some pressure on. Nothing crazy, but just like a cross face or full mount or just something where you just felt like, oh, my God, I'm completely stuck here. And that. That for me was one of the most kind of motivating. They were the motivating moments for me to feel like I need to learn how to do this.
I need to learn how to make somebody feel like there's no point in fighting. If I want to keep you here, you're staying here. When I want to move to another position, I'm going to move and there's nothing you can do about it. So I think, I mean, I don't know whether you would have the same kind of philosophy on it.
I mean, you're a bit bigger and heavier than me, but, you know, I feel like sometimes with newbies here and there, you need to give them a little squeeze just so they can experience like, wow, this is jiu jitsu's real. It doesn't. It's not just rolling around on the floor. I mean, I think again, it's a couple of different mentalities and you can kind of pick it up when you're rolling with people.
Like some people, they want to kind of know that the black belt is really good and sort of like have it put on them a little bit so that they can sort of then accept that, you know, you're a good, you're not just a good teacher, but you're good at the sport. Other people, you know, you're just going to have a play around and I'll kind of let myself get swept and all sorts of things. And I mean, I think what you're saying about pressure is exactly what I want to improve myself.
I want to become comfortable in the uncomfortable. And I think that's one of the goals in jiu jitsu. And again, it's one of those ones you can bring into other areas of life. I'm fairly uncomfortable doing public speaking, but I said yes because I want to be comfortable in the uncomfortable. So put myself in positions where there's pressure on you and try and learn to thrive under that pressure. That's what we're trying to do. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's you.
Are you a follower of Goggins, David Goggins? I'm probably not. I don't sort of, you know who. He is though, the stay hard, the American guy. Oh, really? No, no. Oh, so you should. He's. Well, the best thing to do is he, he was on Rogan. He's been on a few times, but listen to the first one, it's about five, six years ago.
Yeah. He's written a couple of books, etc, he's, he's got like a few world records for like 24 hours of pull ups and press ups and he's one of those kind of ultra marathon whatever guys. But he, he, his whole thing is finding the absolute most difficult things that he can possibly do and just go and do them. And he's his kind of thing, he's like, you can't break me. It's that mental toughness of like no matter then what life throws at you.
It's just like I've put myself through 10 times worse than this. Yeah. So his, his sort of, the, the stories he, he talks about a lot of stuff on that Rogan, which is, which is kind of motivating stuff. But he, he went and did the Navy Seals. So he was like 350 pounds, couch potato. And then he was like one day, right, I need to lose weight, whatever, lost weight, got fit, got I think into the basic military, went for Navy SEALS tryouts, was, got kicked out because he was no good.
Trained some more, went back again and the second time he went, they have this kind of like hazing thing, you know, where they is just like, they got to whittle down, you know, the. All the recruits down to the 20% who are going to actually go through, like, hell week. And they basically, they're on the beach and they've got these. These big, like, dinghies with the hard bottoms with the motors on them and everything. And I think there's 10 or 12 of them.
They basically pick up this thingy and it's like thousand kilos. Pick this thing up on their shoulders. You run down the beach, launch into the sea. They got to paddle it out to a boy, turn around, paddle it back and pick it up, run back up the beach. They just keep doing it until they've gone from 20 groups down to like five or whatever. Whoever's left, you stay. Whoever gave up, you go. And so he had this thing. They were boat crew too, and he had this thing you can't break, boat crew two.
So they, they were doing it and they got down to, like, the final five or whatever. And the instructors like, okay, cool, you guys are all, like, through. And he was like, fuck you, we're doing it. And they did like another eight hours. They just stayed on the beach. He said, I just wouldn't let him go. We just kept going in and out, in and out, in and out. And he goes, Because I wanted to be in the instructor's head for the rest of the week. Like, you can't break me.
Whatever, whatever you think you're going to do to break me, it's not even, it's not even close. If you're looking at that kind of growth for yourself. He's a really good guy to follow. He's really kind of motivational and the other one, and maybe you're aware of it. Did you hear the Hicks and Gracie story about the being in the rug, rolled up in the rug? No, I don't think so.
So he was, he was saying that when he was young, I think he was like, maybe 13, 14, they already were training on the adult mat. And, you know, because of the name and the family and everything, he goes, you know, I already was good. And then one day, some guy came down, adult, big guy, came down, got full mount, smothered him. And he goes, like, I panicked. Like, I had a proper panic attack. Like, I tapped, had to go off the mat, couldn't train, whatever. And then he goes, he goes.
We went home and he got maybe Hoyler or one of them. He goes, we had like this massive rug in the lounge. And he goes, I said to Hoya, you're gonna roll me up in this rug, and you leave me there for an hour. Like, doesn't matter if I start crying, screaming, whatever. You just leave me rolled up in the rug. And he said, like, after. After he came out the rug, he said, like, I never.
I was never claustrophobic again because I was like, it can never be worse than, like, you're just trapped in this rug. You can't breathe, you can't move. No one's going to come to get you out. But, you know, that again, was that. Was that kind of like, how. How tough a situation do you want to be able to get through? Yeah, but I think that's. I think that's. That's kind of like an important thing for life. Yeah. As you get older, is just addressing the stuff where you don't feel comfortable.
I mean, there's probably some things where you say, I don't feel comfortable, and it's not that important to me. But there's other things where you feel like, okay, I would like to be able to publicly speak or, you know, whatever it is that I think is important, to find a way to kind of address those.
And this I found doing the podcast is as very much like, improved my comfort with speaking and standing up in front of people or whatever, because I remember at the beginning when me and Smith started it, I mean, and it's just us two in the studio, we were so nervous. We were so nervous. Like, you know, what if we. What if we got nothing to talk about?
And what if we say something stupid and, you know, and then you're kind of sitting there and the other person's talking and you're thinking, like, must think of, like, something to say, like, when they finished. But then after doing, like, so many of them, it just. I mean, it's like jiu jitsu, right? It's like after a while, it's like, oh, I'm under full mountain. Yeah. Oh, well, I've got. I got four escapes I can try. You know, there's a buzzer's gonna go off at some point.
Yeah. So I think it is. It's just kind of like that repetition and just. Just sort of keep, Keep, keep doing stuff. So, so are you. Are you then as far as the jiu jitsu, are you, like, actively putting yourself underneath bad positions? Not. Not necessarily. I mean, I'll let people work and, you know, I was rolling with someone today who I know is, like, really good at, like, choking you from certain positions. I'm quite happy to sort of let.
Let him Pass my guard and try and choke me from there. I don't mind too much. And so, yeah, I mean, you're gonna benefit from putting yourself in bad positions, but I think on the whole I'm probably more kind of, you know, resilient when someone's like 90% pass. I put myself into a position a lot where I'm kind of giving up 90% of a pass and then kind of like holding on and sort of seeing what I can get back or seeing if I can sort of sweep from there or recover from there.
And you know, like, when someone's like 93 through, if they turn their hips and hold on tight and drop their weight, it's miserable. And especially like people with like really good grips or really sort of strong guys, but it's always like worth knowing. You know, if they're that bad from like from sort of half guard or from like a 90 through, then they're also going to be that good bad from, from side control, they're going to be that bad from mount.
And I'd rather have like that, that little holding on to the foot where I've got an inkling because at least I've got something I've got once I'm passed, you know, I'm gonna have to find something else. You're gonna have to pull, pull the cat out of the bag. Once that, once they're in mount, you don't want those people on top of you. So I'm gonna hold on as long as possible, not trying to stall. I'll kind of like, especially if it's kind of a around, I'll let the round progress.
But yeah, I'm not going to let them through out of fight. Even if it's, even if they're cross facing the hell out of me, I'm not going to just let them, let them get through without having to earn it. Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite, it's quite important to create those different scenarios. So that would kind of be like one mode of rolling where you allow a pass almost to be there and then you try to defend and work your way back and get back to neutral or back to dominant position or whatever.
What's, what's your thoughts about in terms of your kind of, let's say, training partners or the way that you're rolling in? I mean, do you feel that it's important that you've, you have people that you basically can beat up and you have people that basically can beat you up and you have people where you're very evenly matched. I mean, you do need a mix, I mean, I think so the main thing, I think, comes back to something about trying to bring people up together.
It was ideally, if you have people around the same age and around the same weight. So like, so bigger gyms, like, are really good because, you know, there might be one gym that has a load of really sort of like 70 kilograms, like purple belts.
And because they have like the four 70 kilogram purple belts who all kind of applying and sort of like competing regularly, then it comes like a little microcosm that can like turbocharges, those people who are involved in that and then people who become into their orbit kind of get dragged along. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's more important to get. So I'm trying to get like, good sort of like heavyweight rounds. You know, I'll roll with anyone. I'm quite happy to.
And you say because I can give people an advantage, I can sort of create little challenges for myself, even if I'm rolling with a like 50 kilogram girl. I mean, we're trying to flow a little bit more, kind of move through a load of positions. But, I mean, I can hopefully make it sort of a good role for both of us. You know, once it starts sort of to even out a bit, then, you know, I'm going to put it on you a little bit more. I'm going to try and get my.
My sort of submissions in my sort of passes in. You know, when I'm rolling against most purple brown belts, I'm going to try and tap them. I'm going to try and tap them probably about three times, four times. After that, I kind of will go back to letting them pass a little bit and working from there, but I'm never not going to try and tap someone. Yeah, I mean, I think. I think the. Probably the better you get, the higher level you're at, the more you want even training.
Yeah, people that are, you know, at your level and it's, you know, Ken and Ryu in Street Fighter, like, they both got the same moves and the same power bar and whatever. And it's like whoever's better is going to win. I think sort of earlier on, I think it's important to have people who are either less good or lighter or, you know, whatever, because certainly, like being older and being smaller. Yeah, lighter. Like tonight, for example, I'm looking at who's there and I'm like. I'm like the.
I'm just gonna be like the punch bag tonight. And then obviously Dave's there, me and David. Like, similar size. Yeah. Similar weight and whatever. And then Lucy turned up and I was like, cool. At least I've got a couple of people who sort of around my. My kind of level, speed, size that we can actually have, like, a good role with everyone else. I'm like, okay, this is going to be some version of trying to defend.
Yeah. And I think sometimes, like, I've had this conversation with Smith quite a lot that you get quite good at defense. Yeah. You don't necessarily get a chance to practice attacking because you are. You are on the defensive a lot.
I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that because I think being comfortable in the uncomfortable, you know, feeling like I've had people that outweigh me by 30 kilos sitting on top of me for a whole round and I don't tap and whatever, you know, that's a good sort of base to build. But then you. You don't necessarily get a lot of opportunity to attack just to get good at, you know, finishing off those arm. Bars or you need those kind of, like, revelation moments that.
Yeah, I do know jiu jitsu. I'm good at this. Especially against someone of your own weight and size. So, yeah, I think it's when. When some newer people do come in and you get to roll with them, it's like, yes. Yeah. I think for the blue belts as well. Even, like some of the white belts who've been like, you know, they've been training nine or 10 months and they're getting beaten up by everyone in class because, you know, they're all blue belts or above.
And then someone else comes in and actually, I do have these skills. I have been developing these skills. It's hard to see when everyone's developing at the same time. And that's, that's why, again, like, the competition is good because, like, you really see it when you're taking it outside of that training environment and sort of seeing how you do against other people. Yeah, yeah. I mean, competition is, is. Is very much like.
Like doing exams, like kind of school exams, forcing yourself to just go do it. See whether you can still cope with the stress, with the pressure, how you physically match up. Yeah, etc. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think there's any debate about that, really. And so what's your kind of opinion or guidance or whatever on refereeing and doing the refereeing course and that kind of thing?
Well, I think I first got into refereeing because you used to go to the competitions and see the referees and think, well, actually it's the referees who are the toughest people on these mats because it used to be these big tough Brazilian black belts and when they. Move people back to the middle as. Well, dragging them around and manhandling people. So yeah, yeah, it's like the referees are the real tough guys.
But yeah, I mean, I got into refereeing when I was a blue belt because I think it does help you to sort of develop your understanding about the sport. You know, we're not trying to like, game it by making sure you get your points or whatever, but understanding how points are given. So when points are given, making sure that you, you get your points.
So like when you sort of see white belts spar or even when you see white belts compete, you know, like, or especially when you see kids matches, like they might go top to bottom, top to bottom, top to bottom, but did they ever score, stop in a point scoring position? So yeah, one. Like ideally, in a jiu jitsu match, you're not winning like 30 nil. 30 nil is, is not like a good thing to be winning by. You want to get one takedown, one pass amount and a finish. So like what, like seven points?
He's seven nil. And like, done. That's what we should be aiming for. You know, obviously. What is the, what is the most points? You're going to tell me you scored once, 45, right? No, I've never, I've never been like, so. Because like, yeah, that's normally like when someone regains the guard and you pass again and you regain the guard and so just comes along as performative. Have you ever had the fight where it's turned into that and you're like, I wonder how many points I could get.
Just once I must, must have had something. I mean, I say like, most of my fights are not points wins and that's wins and losses. Like I'm more likely to, you know, get submission than win by points. I don't want to be winning by points. And again, like, I lose by submission occasionally because, you know, I want, I want to like progress the match and you know, I'll take risks and take chances. So especially like a black belt, I've been tapped out a handful of times by some really good guys.
And yeah, put yourself in the position where you. I mean, I went and did the English Open one year when they were doing like a pro league. So they invited like some of the top sort of black belts at no key and somehow invited me along to it as well. So there's like Freddie Vosgrove and Tom Brancher and Shane Curtis also in that. I was in there too. I think I got Tom Brancher in the first round. Is big guy. I think I fought him when he was like 16, like really sort of thin as a rake.
Probably one of his first time fighting in an adult division and then having to compete against him again when he's fully grown and like a beast. Yeah, I mean I got, I got told, but it's gonna happen. I'm 40 years old now and it's too great to sort of be able to step on the mats with some of these guys or. I did a super fight with Lloyd Cooper at black belt and that was, that was great fun. Sort of like again just went out there, I knew he was gonna like, he's got like good foot locks.
I was like, I'm gonna go straight into that. I'm gonna try and foot lock him as well. And it was a good fun back and forth match. And then, you know, I made a bit of an error and yeah, I got a tap. So but like, so just being able to sort of share the maps with sort of high level guys is like it's great that I can still go out and do that. And so did you say, you said you started training properly at 27? 27, yeah. 13 years now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you feel at 40 compared to at 27?
I don't feel too bad. I mean I lost my ACL probably about eight years ago now. Yeah. You never had anything done with it? I never had anything done with it. So like a snapped it, tore it. Whatever, it went pop in a match and I'm like, it wasn't even, like it wasn't even in the middle of a row. Like it was in a static position. Someone like reaped the knee, it was stopped and then they restarted it with the foot on the hip and then just that the static pressure being released because they would.
The whistle went or like the referee said go. Suddenly there's all this pressure and he went pop. But you know, like I've not. I think I was quite lucky because it was a static position. I didn't have any sort of associated meniscus damage or anything like that. It was just the ACL that went pop. But I mean I was back on the mat within two weeks to the point where I was like, has my ACL really gone? I went and got the, the mri, they say it's gone.
You go to the doctor, they Do a test where they kind of almost like push the knee joint in on itself and you sort of see the lateral movement. So, yeah, your ACL has gone, but it doesn't really give me any real sort of disadvantage. I think I've got. I've always had quite strong thighs and I think that the sort of maintaining the muscle mass around sort of the legs and the ligaments is really sort of the key to sort of supporting where the ligament has gone. So are you doing supplementary?
Not really. Strengthen conditioning, whatever. I say, like, Jiu Jitsu is my main. My main sort of exercise. Yeah. I mean, I probably. No yoga. A little bit yoga, a little bit stretching. Yeah. So like many sort of like sparrow or whatever it's called, bird names. I can remember. Those were Sunday mornings, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. So my wife used to teach. I used to love those Sunday morning classes. Yeah, She's. She's not really teaching yogurt.
No. No. So since we had the kids, she never got back into it. She. Does she still practice a bit or. Not really. Yeah, just. Just with a friend. So I think she basically goes round to a friend's house once a week and like, teach it or teaches her or runs a session for her. So there's two of them doing it. But yeah, I think partly it's sort of just time. I mean, she'd love to have more time to do that, and I'd love her to have more time to do that.
And I'm really lucky in that she sort of values my need to do Jiu Jitsu. I mean, it's probably a little bit selfish in that I probably get a little bit more time doing that. I mean, I do get income from teaching, but I mean, I think also she probably also realizes for. For my mental health, I need to. To have that outlet and. Yeah, and that's why. Yeah, I mean, I always try and make sure she gets to that yoga session. So, you know, sports and mental health is completely sort of interlinked.
You need to have those good hormones being released. Yeah. And I think not just. Not just the kind of. The physical side of it, which obviously that's a very, I don't know, direct, measurable benefit. You know, you release good hormones and, you know, sweat out a load of toxins and, you know, all this measurable stuff. I think. I think as well, for Jiu Jitsu, particularly, but probably there's. There's a lot of other things as well. The social aspect. Yeah, yeah.
And also the mental aspect, like the kind of problem Solving constant learning. So. So one thing that I found, I can't remember whether it was with Jiu Jitsu or when it was when I taught myself to edit, like a final cut and that kind of stuff. It was one or the other. I started remembering stuff from my degree from like 10 or 12 or 15 years earlier that I had forgotten just because my. My brain got back into like that learning mode and recall and trying to access.
And then I just started pulling up sort of previous stuff that I'd kind of forgotten. And when I was talking to Julie, Jiu Jitsu Nana, I think she's 60 now, and she started training at 54. And she said the same thing. She said I could feel myself starting to just get a little bit kind of dopey as I was getting older. And she said once she got into Jiu Jitsu, she said, like, everything started to sharpen up, like a thought process and her mind and all of that.
And I think, I mean, I don't think it's an overlooked aspect of Jiu Jitsu because, you know, everyone talks about it as a thing, but I don't think it can be kind of underestimated as you get older as kind of how important that side of it is, the social and the kind of mental and emotional side of things. Because I think as well, I mean, when you've got young kids, I think it's different because kind of like they're your focus. And I assume you.
There's a lot of social stuff develops around the kids. Yes. You know, you've got kids birthday parties, you got parents evenings, they're doing this. We're going for a picnic in the park in the summer or whatever. But as you get older, people kind of drop away, people move or they got married or they died or whatever. You know, use kind of your social circle thins out.
And I. And I think it's really kind of invaluable to have that kind of group of people around where you're constantly kind of interacting and someone's doing something or there's a competition that you can just go and support, or it's someone's birthday or it's Christmas drinks or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I think that that stuff is, is very, is very important. I mean, it's community.
And I think that's partly why I like doing the refereeing is like you putting yourself out in the Jiu Jitsu community. Like some of them, like you got people who compete, you've ref their kids matches going back like six years or whatever. And now they're like 23 or whatever and sort of smashing it on like blue belt, purple belt on something. It's really nice to see. Or just people you've competed against again like a dozen years ago or whatever. Have a bit of a chat and a catch up.
So it's nice to be in that. So, like, for me, the refereeing is not necessarily about, you know, the money, which it's not. Like, it's nice, but it's not fantastic. It's. It's about being there and being surrounded by jiu jitsu. And like, if you, if you're not able to compete as much as you have done previously or, you know, say you're injured, like referee means you're still part of that. You can still sort of be there on these kind of events. So I really like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a good, that's a good aspect to the, to the referee. So. So in the interests of us not sitting there all night. Yeah. Because it's getting late. Let me, let me ask you some quick fire questions. Sure. Yeah. Do you listen to the. Have you got to the end of any of these episodes? They're always a similar question. No, I haven't got to the end. No. Okay. I've just gone through the clips and stuff. So would you rather fight one horse sized duck or 100 duck sized horses? 100 duck sized horses.
100, yeah. One horse sized duck or 100 duck sized Horses? I take the duck sized horses. Horses are like, you know, they're quite sort of docile. A duck, it's got a big beak. It's going to be all up in your face. Yeah. The little horses. Yeah. You're trapped in a TV show for a month. What would you choose? Oh, most of the TV shows I've seen recently, I would not want to be anywhere near watching A House of the Dragon the other day. I don't want to go anywhere near that. What's that about?
Oh, it's like a Game of Thrones spin off. Right. Okay. Especially if you're not a king or a queen. You just don't want to be in these programs. I mean, you could, you can choose your character. Would you be a king or a queen or still. I have no desire to be a king or a queen. That's not my personal neighbors, friends. That'd be, oh, let's have a coffee and friends. Yeah. Well, you can work at the coffee shop and be Gunter's mate in the coffee. Coffee shop.
Yeah. If you could have dinner with Anyone, living or dead. Who would you like to have dinner with? Oh, goodness, I don't know. I really should have prepared for this. No, I mean that's the whole point. You Jason. Oh, lovely. And the follow up question is always, what would we eat? Oh, I'll go for a curry. Oh, nice. Do you cook? Are you. I do cook, yeah. Do you cook a curry? Yes. Yeah, not as much anymore. We tend to do like a dal, so. Which is. Yeah, you're not veggie pescatarian.
Okay. Yeah, yeah. Dal's nice. Yeah, yeah. What do you sing at karaoke? Oh dear. I've done a few karaoke's. Any of them went well? No, not normally. I do. What's it. The song from Blues Brothers. Everybody Needs Somebody. Oh yeah, I was. I've done a few times Rawhide from Blues. That's good, that's a good. That's an easy one, right? Yeah. You can go back to any point in time for 24 hours. When and where would you like to go?
Gonna go watch the Kennedy assassination and find out what's going on there. Nice, interesting one. What's the best piece of advice you ever received? Oh, I don't. I don't know. I can't remember where my. Any good advice has come from or. Do you have a good piece of advice to give? Yeah, I mean just believe in yourself. I think it's good advice. Yeah. What's the best video game you ever played? Probably the Witcher 3. I'm gonna go with that. Never heard of it. No, no. What's. What is it?
It's on be on like Xbox and PlayStation. It's based on these sort of Polish fantasy novels and it's this sort of guy who goes around sort of like killing monsters, but it's because he researches them. But it's a really good story, let's say one of the most like the best games of the last ten years. The Witch. The Witcher. Oh, the Witcher. Oh, the Witcher. Was there a TV show as well? Yeah, there is now. There's like with Henry Cavill. Yes, that's right.
Yeah. Although he's been kicked out and they've got someone else in now. Oh yeah, we don't really watch a lot of telly, but yeah, the Witcher. Yeah. Yeah. You can have one superpower. What would you choose? Yeah, I think sort of seeing the future. Oh, that's a double edged sword. Oh yeah. Yeah, I think I'd want that one. No, you're stuck on a long haul flight and the infotainment is broken. Who would you like to be sitting next to go? With? My wife.
Good. Cool. Hey, Chloe, what's your walkout song? Oh, I've done it in the past. I've had a walkout song. Oh, goodness. I can't even remember what I picked then, let alone now. I think I'll go with some Black Sabbath. Nice. Yeah. Get rolled up. Do you have a funny joke? No. If you could remove one thing from Earth, what would it be? Oh, nuclear weapons. Yeah, good one. Do you have a bug out plan for the zombie apocalypse? I think I'm probably screwed.
My fences won't hold up even with a strong wind, so goodness knows what. You'Re more like Shaun of the Dead kind of style. It gets. Place of record. Final question. Yeah. You can have £10 million in cash right now, but you are being chased by a snail. If the snail touches you, you die a horrible death. The snail cannot be stopped, the snail cannot be killed. The snail knows where you are at all times and he has only one purpose, which is to get to you. Would you take the money? Hmm?
No. It's a 50. 50 split. It has. It has split the guests in half. I think I would go. No. Oh, yeah. Thank you very much for coming in. Thank you very much for training. I hope it wasn't too stressful. No, it's fine. I just need to go find a takeaway to take home to my wife. She's gonna be very hungry. Is this going to be dull? Is this going to be in India? I don't know. I have to do a little bit of research on the way home.
There's a really nice, like, Indonesian restaurant sort of near the Everyman, sort of near Barnet. Oh, just here. Yeah. Have you. Have you guys ever got food from Maggio's in East Finchley? Yes. Yeah, so that's. They do a good darling there. Yeah, it's potent. But we went to the Razoi, which is kind of the Indian restaurant between East Finchley and Muzzle Hill. Is that theirs as well? They. No, no, no, it's further along, near the pub that was the Kinks used to go to.
But it's a really nice restaurant and they do a dal that takes like 12, 14 hours to cook. Like the black dal, it's just so buttery. It's delicious. So I recommend that. Make me hungry. I've got that. I've got chicken broth at home. Yeah. But now I'm thinking maybe I'm going to try and get something more substantial. Making me hungry. What's your social media. You, you Instagram, Facebook. I've got Instagram. I've been really crap on social media. I think it's like Jatak at. On Instagram.
Yeah, it's a weird one, right? The. Why, where's that from, that Jattack? I think it's basically a mixture of Jack and Attack. Oh, okay. Yeah. I did wonder what I thought, you know, people have got like, when they're 50 years old, they've still got that email from when they were 6, which is, you know, like fluffy pink rabbit's 11. You're like, you're a police sergeant. That's a weird email. I've got YouTube account. I put some of my old matches and stuff on there. I tried to.
I had to go editing. Like it was probably the first time in many years we did. We did our Christmas smash and grab, which is kind of like a. Kind of a gym event where people bring in a Christmas present. An old Christmas present. Yeah. So I found that was like really fun. So the first one, I tried to edit it, you know, it kind of probably doesn't do it credit, but it's really fun. Yeah, it's good fun. And what's the YouTube? I think it's reverse triangle. I think it's my YouTube.
If you send me them, I'll put them in the show notes. If you want to follow Jack's YouTube to see the post Christmas. What is it called? I think it's submission smash and grab. Like Santa's stocking. Submission smash and grab. A present they don't want. Right, yeah. Unwanted freshest present and pick. Yeah. You bring something in that's rubbish and you don't want it, you take someone else's rubbish home. Yeah. That could almost turn into like a TV show. Right. I thought it was a really good.
Concept, like a combo between ultimate fighter and like 321. You know, Dusty Bin, one of them kind of shows. Yeah, I like it. All right, so I'll put links in the show notes. Thank you, thank you. Thank you very much. Yes. Thank you guys for listening. I know everyone's time is precious. If you stayed all the way through. I appreciate your time. Make sure you're following the podcast at White Basement Pod is the best place. Put a new episode out every week.
I'm going to probably have a little break end of December, beginning of Jan, because no one listens over Christmas. So a couple of weeks we'll have off. But otherwise, new episode every Tuesday, 5am and we'll catch you next time.
Yeah, rap is such a competitive spot My glasses still on it's the Incredible Daw they want to try me like the fed of a car But I'm unashamed of the gospel I never retort that statement of the rappers of wax offs DJ treat him like Mr. Miyagi and turn they wax off Reaching God's standards We all fall short like trying to shoot a medicine ball from half court.