Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'mheart Radio podcast.
Today's episode Whine About It Thursday Therapy. It's going to do with Linda and Charlie Bloom. So they're experts in the field of relationships. They've been married since nineteen seventy two. They've both been trained as seminar leaders, therapists and relationship counselors, and I've been working with individuals, couples and groups since nineteen seventy five. They have a new book out, which
is what we're going to talk about. It's An End to Arguing, a one oh one valuable lessons for all relationships, and now more than ever, couples need guidance for navigating conflict wisely and skillfully. Drawing on insights from their work with couples since nineteen seventy five, the Blooms offer practical tools and strategies that apply to all relationships. An End to Arguing convincingly shows how destructive conflicts can be avoided
and provide stimulus for individual and interpersonal growth. They use compelling examples from their clinical work and their own fifty year marriage, which have had its share of challenges.
I'm excited to get them on because let's just stop there arguing. Hey guys, I'm Jana.
How are you?
Things are going good?
Like good?
Good? Because I know every time it's like people are like, yeah, no, it's good, but really there's you know, like how are you?
How are you really okay? Especially good?
Especially good. We had a wonderful Easter holiday weekend with my son and his girlfriend and my grandkids, and it was beautiful weather. It's especially enjoyable with all the sunshine because we've just come out of three weeks of gloom and rain.
So you must be in California.
We're in California, we're mid coast and Santa Cruz and so I always enjoy the spring, but after all of this rain we've had, it's so wonderful to be able to sit out on the deck in the sun.
And you guys have been married for fifty years?
Is that right, Charlie more than fifty years? Fifty years?
Oh, there you go.
That's why I throw it to you, because I'm like, the guys never know.
Replins, You're right, So okay, I'm really excited to talk to you guys. I'm a big this show is a big advocate for therapy. I've been doing therapy since I was pretty much fourteen, but really like diving in just with all my childhood stuff and trying to you know now that I'm in I got divorced two years ago and now I'm in a new relationship and I'm so excited to your book.
It's an end to.
Arguing and just like I love that, and I wonder, you know, obviously you've been doing clinical work since nineteen seventy five, but what is the biggest like, what is the biggest argument that you've seen in all your years of doing.
What you do.
I think it's when people feel that their trust has been betrayed. It doesn't necessarily have to be an affair, but that's one of the places where it shows up, and it's just a huge psychic assault. And we're both from the school of thought that no matter how big the crisis is in your relationship, if there's motivation on both sides to learn and grow, that that crisis can be fueling your tank to have even a deeper trust and a greater understanding and a more expansive commitment that
you had pre crisis. So we're always working with couples about where is your motivation. Is your motivation strong enough to do the kind of repair that's required after trust has fallen down?
Yeah, I think that's I mean, that's the number one reason why my marriage didn't work.
My ex husband had a bunch of affairs.
And every time that I thought we'd built up lots, there'd be another fall, another discovery of something, and that.
Trust could just never get there.
Like I would just about to be like, Okay, I think I trust him, and then it was taken away and then having to kind of rebuild that, And that went on for about seven years, and I know now I'm curious, like where I'm at today, and I'm almost so triggered by trust and wise that I'm like I can't physically. I'm like, if my boyfriend weren't a lot to me, which I don't think he has that at all, but.
Like I would, I don't know if I could ever.
Recover from from that, because it's such the destruction that it did.
And then who I turned into.
Like I was dating someone post divorce and he had lied to me about something, and I turned into this version of just like.
Someone that wasn't even me.
I just the control and the like the anger, and the like, I didn't even recognize myself and I'm like, okay, and now I know I could never be with someone that I cannot trust. But it's like, but then I see here stories of people that can trust again, I'm like, I don't know where, like how to how to be on the other side of it in a new healthy relationship.
Yeah, it's a very subjective thing from person person and
depending upon the situation. But when when we're working with a person or with a couple around the issue of betrayal, whether it's sexual infidelity or the betrayal of a very important promise or commitment or vow that they made, that it's it's really important to find out first of all, whether you think whether they think it's even possible to repair this, because a lot of you know, a lot of the people that we've dealt with, when we asked that question, one of them will say, no, it's too late,
it's over, And I mean we won't, you know, we'll press a little bit into that, but if they're really committed to holding that position, which is understandable because when you've had a betrayal or multiple betrayals, you reach a point or most people do at some point, you know, I can't put myself in this position again.
I can't.
I'm not willing to allow myself to go through this again because it's ripping me apart. And so the first thing we've got to find out is whether or not they even think it's possible. And in the cases where they both agree it's possible, there's always a big butt yeah. But I don't know if we if we can do it, I don't know what it's going to require. And but
that's that's that's the beginning. Most people underestimate the damage that even one trail, never mind multiple betrayals, what that can do in the amount of time and work and effort and patience and energy it requires to really do a thorough repair. They just don't They don't realize it.
And so, you know, you know, sometimes we'll get situations, I mean, there you'll probably you know, see this, this doesn't make any sense, but you'll get situations where the betrayer will apologize and you know, he'll expect often at him, but it's often it can be her too. She'll expect forgiveness and let's move on. So, you know, three days after the affair, you know, she's quote still hurting, still
upset for three months, still hasn't forgiven him. And you know, even if there's a short period of time like that, you know, he said, well, you know, you know, come on, it's been it's been three days, it's been two weeks. You know, let's get on, get get over this, let's move on, you know, quit holding onto this. That's one of the biggest mistakes that people make is putting pressure on somebody to forgive them when they ain't close to being ready to forgive yet there's so much work to do.
It's not saying I'm sorry.
Doesn't cut it. The evidence has to come in that the person is truly sincerely contrite that they are sorry that they acted out that way. They violated the trust, they caused so much suffering, and they're demonstrating with their high integrity behavior, their honesty, their openness, their their willingness to reveal rather than conceal. That builds the true us back. But even when there is a motivation on both sides, it can take several months or a year or more.
That's I remember saying that.
Yeah, I used to say it's Max and'd be like, what are you going to like, when are we going to move on from this? You keep bringing it up and I'm like, well, it's been two months. And what you don't understand is I think about it every second. Like first it's every second, and then maybe like in a month, I'm like, I think about it every minute, or I have I passed by this hotel, or I see this, or I'm like that's what you don't get, Like you can just be like, okay, done, I apologize,
it's under the rug. It's not for me, like I see it all the time, Like I can't. I'm trying. I'm trying to do my work. But it's like it's a my therapist basically. I remember we were in a couple's session. He was like, you, she was a passenger in a car car accident, her legs are chopped off. Do you expect that person to be over the fact that they don't have legs and there they can't carry themselves.
You know that's a great metaphor, that's great, that's so accurate.
So i'd always be a car crash, Like I'm trying so moving on right, Like I'm in a happy, loving relationship now, And how do you how do people, I guess, not put the face on someone else or like and just go in again trusting because a lot of people are like, how are you able to trust again? And I always say like, well, it's so different. This is a you know, I have to remind myself that this isn't my ex and how he how my boyfriend shows up now is wildly different how my ex did?
You know?
So it's like I have to look at those things.
But there are still times when I have to do you know, inventory check ins with myself or like or what's coming up or you know, And but what would you say to someone that's like, how do I how do I trust again? How to put myself back out there?
Well? To trust again is an act of tremendous courage after it's been violated, and we choose, moment to moment, day to day, incident to incident, we choose to trust and to give them the benefit of the doubt and take the projection of the person who betrayed us. Do you know off of that person and see them as they are and look at them through eyes of appreciation and gratitude that this is a high integrity person, This
is a person who values honesty. This is a person who's generous of spirit enough that when I am triggered and I'm having those fearful, suspicious thoughts, that I can tell the truth about that and they won't make me bad and wrong for it. That they'll respect that I was injured and that I'm in recovery and that it sometimes takes many months even years to make a full recovery. But we're a stand for a full recovery is possible.
And if you have an agreement with this lovely new person who's in your life, that you you have permission, you know that you're it's okay for you to have those moments of fear and that you can speak them in a way that he can console you and he can reassure you, and that he's committed to have an honest, open, above board relationship and that you two are aligned in that value which you didn't have with that other person.
Yeah, and it's it's crazy because I don't have an ounce of distrust and you know, he lives in a different country, so it's like that it's because of how we respect each other. It's so the trust is like it's been I don't have I don't. I don't not trust him, like at ounce of me does not not
trust him. And I think it's again And I don't know if that's a piece into your arguing book, But like, how we respect each other and how we choose our words together is so different too, And I know that takes two people choosing to respect the other person and to and to and to love. But have you seen that, like, is that something that is a trick in your and too arguing? Is how you speak to each other?
Absolutely, and how do you speak to each other really is a function of your own willingness to live in the integrity of the truth. So the way the way you the words that you use when you speak are an expression of what your inner values are. And sometimes you know, people don't realize how much they're revealing about themselves when when they when they speak, and particularly when they make agreements and promise is that they don't keep.
And in almost every case that we've seen where there's been major fundamental betrayals, there has been a breakdown in the fundamental level of trust in the relationship. It's been there since before the event happened that caused the crisis. And and you know most most couples don't really understand how damaging it is to create a track record with the other person where they don't naturally trust the words
of their partner. They don't realize that when when promises are broken, when people are not honest with each other, when they do things that are inconsistent with their words, that this does serious damage. Every time that happens. It takes the integrity of the relationship down another notch. And so people get very suspicious. They start checking each other's phones, and they start doing things and doubting that, questioning whether or not they can really take the other person's word
for it. So there's a breakdown in trust, which makes the relationship very vulnerable to actions that can further jeopardize.
And every great relationship is built on a foundation of trust. So there's a whole series of agreements that when we know kid and keep them makes that foundation solid. And I love the definition. We learned this from Angelusarian that integrity is having what you think and feel and say and do all lined ump is one. So when a couple has an agreement to live in integrity, each of them as an individual to live a life of integrity and to have their relationship be about honesty and openness
and integrity. That's a great contract to make. That's the kind of a contract that brings out the best in each other.
I'm s laughing to myself because when you brought up the phone thing, I used to be the worst. Like I would look in phones. I was because I'm like, I know I'm gonna find it, I'm gonna find it. But it's the only time I've ever looked in someone's phone in a pass like with my exer next relationship, is because they've lied to me. So then I'm like, all right, let me find some more. And that's why, like and I told my boyfriend. Now I'm like, I don't.
The second that I feel like I want to look at your phone, that's when like there's a problem, because I'm like, I don't want to have to ever want or like have the need or the feeling to look at your phone like and that's you know, and I don't, which is great because he hasn't lied to me, right, But when I look back in other relationships, I'm going, well, yeah, Jane,
of course you're looking in their phone. They lied to you, Like of course you're going to want to find more evidence, and it's like the detectiveness comes out again right.
Which doesn't mean that we are perfect all the time. We sometimes are forgetful, or we're sometimes overtired. We sometimes make a mistake, but if we own up to it right away and put the correction in repair, the trust doesn't have You.
Know, something too in your book that I was.
I was curious to know more about is you know, I always say, and this is something that I think everyone not everyone, but a lot of people say, my mom told me this is you know, when I was in relationships, Well, choose pick your battles, choose your battles, and you say, don't And so I'm curious if you can elaborate on that.
Well, we don't mean that you shouldn't be discerning about which things you get upset about and which things you need to talk about. There's a big difference between you know, having having your feelings hurt because your partner forgot your birthday and and them having an affair. I mean, one of them is quite a bit more serious than the other one. The thing that we have an issue with
is more semantics than anything else. It's the word battles, and that is what people how they describe to choose your battles, pick your battles, and so automatically that predisposes people to take an adversarial position. Here, we're going to be fighting. One of us is going to win, one of us is going to lose. This is going to be a battle. Anticipating having an attitude that anticipates that kind of an event predisposes you to be on the
defensive and offensive. So, so you know, we prefer just to talk about those places where you know, we're not sure is this worth is this a hill worth dying on? Is this worth really taking a stand on? Or you know, maybe maybe not. You know, so you know, we're not saying don't be discerning. It's discriminating about what you choose to to talk about. We're just saying, you know, words can be very powerful and the language that we use not only when we're talking to each other, but when
we're thinking it ourselves. You know, Okay, I've got to I've got to is this a battle that I want to fight? So just to kind of frame it in a way that you're looking at it from a different perspure.
And I think something that I've like my way of arguing has changed, where I think I used to always want to be right and I would want them to get my point, understand my point now learning that not probably more times than not, they're probably not going to understand why I feel X, Y, and Z, but they can at least. I think the empathy piece is the only piece that I really crave for. And just like I don't need you to understand it, I don't need
you to be right or wrong. I just need you to listen and maybe be like, how can I help you in the future when something like this comes up, Like, that's literally all I ask and all I need.
And that's a lot to show that level of respect, that we make our best effort to hear their point of view, which may be really discrepant from our point of view, to hear their feelings, to hear their needs, and to show respect. And you mentioned empathy, you know, and to best we can understand. We won't understand completely why this is so important to them, But right along with the trust building is this sense of this person respects who I am and my belief system.
And I.
Am worthy of having their respect and they are worthy of having my respect. And we could have very discrepant points of view, maybe even values that are different, but we make a space that's big enough to hold them. And that's really good individuation. Two unique personalities, two people with process information differently to people with different sore areas. Do you know, but that can be a wonderful, wonderful relationship that we're enriched by our differences, not aggregated by them.
Charlie, I have a question on the guy side. Do you think that.
Do you think men struggle with empathy more than women?
Well, the problem is that they don't struggle with it.
They don't have it the.
Yeah, right, they're not conscious enough to realize that it's
that they've got an empathy deficiency, you know. And I don't mean to make light of this, and I do believe that we're all men and women are all always doing the best that we can do given the level of skill, of consciousness, uh of intelligence that we have in that moment, however, and said that we do live in a culture that reinforces certain traits in men and certain traits in women, and that values some things in one gender that it the values in the other gender,
and women tend to be, to get more encouragement to trust their feelings and to be and to honor the value of feelings. Where you know, men and I know these are gross generalizations, but there's some truth to them. In general, men are more predisposed two relate to things through our intellect, through our cognitive facilities, through analytics.
How to fix how to either defend or defend your fix is kind of what like I'm like, no, no, no, find empathy, not defender fix empathy.
Right, yeah, there's only for most guys. There's only one reason why my wife is going to come to me with a problem, of course, and that's because she wants me to fix it. So she hasn't even she doesn't even get the words out of her mouth. As soon as I smell that there's a problem here, I'm going to be offering advice even though she's only spoken for three seconds, you know, So, I mean we're wired that way. So yeah, the question is how how does you know?
Is it? Is it possible for a guy who has been conditioned in this culture for decades to reinforce and well to diminish the value of emotions. In fact, not only do we got get not get a lot of support to develop it, but we kind of demonize emotions, see it as as a woman's thing, it's a weakness. We don't want to be too emotional because then will appear to be to be weak and not well masculine.
So I mean that the question, then, I think that you're that's implied in your question to me is uh, what do.
We do with this?
You know, like I said, what do you do with it? When that's what you're met with?
So I would like.
To speak to since this is a signature strength of most women, we have a sense of responsibility to appeal to their enlightened self interest about why it's going to be fabulous for our relationship for both of us to develop our empathy, the depth of understanding and the depth of closeness that comes with that kind of.
Heart talk, you know, feeling, and that we reinforce it like mad that we find the sensitivity in our men attractive, that we don't see it as weakness. We see it as being real and we value it, and that when we have that depth of connection, do you know we're going to argue less and have.
Pross And that's what the guy likes to hear so it's a win. I'm going to lean in sure, because then I get to really lean in later there you go, it's like it's like, you know what I mean, it's perfect.
Is what is one of the.
Best arguing tips that you guys have in the book? One of them, not all of them, because we want people to read it.
So we distinguish an argument, which is, you know, the kind of arguments that we're talking about are not simply differences of opinion. There's a big difference between you know, having two different perspectives, two different points of view about something, and that's going to happen. And that's not a problem. That is something that's inherent in all relationships, particularly in close relationships. There are things that we're on the same page about, and then there are things that are we're
on different pages about. So we're concerned about it. And you know, you've probably noticed that in the book. There's a certain kind of an argument that is really potentially very destructive, and that is when there's an issue that comes up for people that's very loaded for one or both of them, you know, perhaps because of some experiences they've had in the past, but they're really sensitive to it. And they have a very strong defensive position on it
about how they want to deal with it. And when the other person confronts them with a different point of view that threatens their security, then they they get triggered. So what I mean by triggered is that they get emotionally activated in a way that makes it very difficult
for them to continue to have a rational discussion. Yeah, right, right, And and so one of the things that's necessary when they start to move into that territory is immediately as soon as they recognize it in themselves, one of them to say, WHOA, I am triggered, just to acknowledge, you know, what they're experiencing, and saying something that simple, just identifying the experience can itself just cool things down enough to begin to bring a little more rational rationality into the
conversation so it doesn't keep deteriorating into a deeper and deeper sense of conflict. You know, we want we want to diffuse the potential for things going down the rabbit hole and for both people amplifying their fear and their anger and getting into more conflict, or else one or both of them just withdrawing and disengaging, because that's that
doesn't work either. So so we want we want people to be willing to just own it, to name it, you know, when when they feel like, whoa, this is uh, I need to take a break here, or you know, we need to do something here to stabilize I need to do something to stabilize myself. It's not a good idea when you recognize the other person is really inflame, try to get them to calm down. Know, somebody tells me to calm down. The last thing I'm going to.
Do is it's like telling your kid you're tired. I'm not tired, Like, no, you're actually so tired.
And that's a good that's a good analogy because when those things happen, we are acting like a kid. We're acting like a five year old. You know, we have lost connection to our neocortex brain that can analyze uh and relate with more skillfulness to differences. We don't have access to that. So yeah, I mean that's you know, we got to first of all, just poled down enough
to be able to engage rationally. And if we can't do that while we're in the midst of this, we need to take a break, and we write about that in several checks.
There's something too that I remember that was really helpful when I was doing couple therapy with my axes. So I have, like, you know, my abandonment issues and fears, and so what our therapists did was they put a when when someone's activated and they need to take a time out, it's like, hey, I'm leaving right now, but I will be back. Can we like set like a time like I'll be back in thirty minutes or I need like essential.
That's essential. You've got to reassure the other person that I'm going to be back and to say when I'm going to be back, because if you just leave, that just blames their abandonments.
And even if you don't, it's like just to be left or to have a door, you know, and I'm against all door slammings now, but you know, just being like I need a minute and it's going to be I'm going to say thirty minutes and then I will come back, and let's try to like, you know, that's something that I'm hopeful to take in to you know, this this one.
Yeah, And we have a kind of a guideline that we offer when we teach our workshops. And when we work with couples that twenty four hours is the absolute maximum at a time. And if you tend to be a stuffer, do you know you need to come back sooner rather than later. But at twenty four hours is the absolute.
Outside But then should that should be rare that you could take anything that long known or is better than later. Yeah, it usually doesn't take more than you know, half an hour or an hour to regulate.
Yourself, or maybe maybe not even half an hour, Maybe just rest is enough. But to make an agreement in place that you know, if you're a shout, if you're threatening, if you have a tendency to be braddy and bullying, that you will calm yourself down before you engage in the conversation again. And if you tend to be a stuffer, and you can go off and you can go days, some people go weeks and they don't they don't re engage.
That you have an.
Agreement in place that you're going to come back, and so we all know, you know which side of the spectrum we're on, whether we're a blurner or whether we're a stuffer, And that's really important to have that conversation and to have an agreement in place before the disruption where you're founded with feeling comes up, so you already have that to turn to.
I love that.
There's a reason this book is a bestseller because we obviously, you know, we're all in relationships, whether it's friendship or husband or you know, romantic relationships, and the arguing there's there's we want an end arguing, and you guys have put that in a book. So Linda and Charlie, thank you so much for coming on, and everybody go get an end too arguing now because it is a book that valuable lessons for all relationships. Thank you guys so much.
Yeah, we enjoyed the interview.
Thank you really appreciate you both. And well we'll have you back on for more therapy one time.
Okay, Well, I love it. Thanks guys, appreciate you.