Thursday Therapy: Why We Stay and When To Leave

Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Stephanie qail on. She's a Nashville recording artist, but she has a book out. It's called Why Do We Stay? How My Toxic Relationship can help you find freedom?

We all need that. Let's get her on, Stephanie. Am.

I cannot believe we're doing this.

I literally was.

I was so excited when I saw the rundown because we have not chatted in a very long time. We first and foremost, this is my niece Avas. She's joining today. She's seventeen years old today.

Oh wow, so yes, i'd be birthday.

So and I'm excited because your your book and everything I think is going to be good for seventeen year old years as well.

So much Janet that I had no idea. I really thought it was for like us who have been in it. Yeah, and on the other side, And never in my life have I been so sure that every seventeen year old needs this.

One thousand percent. And me it's a book that I I wish I would have read them too. But okay, so a few things, so I saw you was it the CMT carpet.

Was that the dress? Okay? So I even this.

Is even before I knew you were coming on the show, because I had just found out a couple of days ago, and because I only looked like a few days before I thought that was coming on. But I remember you were on the carpet and I was like a love loved it, genius loved that you know your dress or was it? Because I mean it was the dress, it was the handbag.

Yes, we had the do you know Rachel deeb remind me?

But she does a lot of like BTSs for different artists, and she's a she paints, she did carry Underwood's jacket that she won tour like. She's just super talented, but never kind of front of camera. And so when I asked her, I was like, is there any chance you would paint the cover of this book onto a dress? Because how do you talk about a book with thirty second snippets? Right?

Sure?

So I'm like, oh, this will work, and she was willing. So it just worked.

And then I took the book cover like the outside and just put it over the top of cardboard and then put like a little bag on the inside.

Sewed it to it and just crossed my fingers.

Yeah. No, I mean it looks great because honestly, of all the dress, of all the dresses that night, it's so it was so genius because I'm like, I only remember yours.

Wow.

Yeah.

So and then so there's that. But then as I'm reading the breakdown of you know, the book and everything, I'm like, is this about your the husband that I met?

No?

Okay, because then I was.

Like, oh no, yeah, no, he is he's solid, he's wonderful.

We're together now ten years, almost married, nine these this is my prequel.

Okay.

So it was the man before this that that did you, the two before that did your wrong board.

Yeah, one died in a plane crash, and then the other one I was able to leave.

Oh wow yeah yeah.

How is that talking about someone that went that Oh yeah, but that also so die in such a tragic way but also was not good to you.

It's uh, well, I've come full circle now, right. I found empathy and compassion because at the end of the day, whatever happened in his life is how he became the man he became right.

Right.

He was also the father of this precious little girl.

That has been a part of my life since she was six or seven, and now she is twenty eight years old, and I just went to her wedding, you know, which was just really just beautiful and precious. And so I'm in a healed, forgiven place, and I'm able to forgive, you know, And that's and forgive myself, mainly because that's really the person I've wrestled with the hardest.

So I guess the question then, is why do we stay? What was your reason? Because I know my reasons for staying in our relationships. I'm sure Ava has her reasons why she stays in bad relationships, but and I love it, Like what what do you think is like your why?

Why do why do we stay?

I mean again, I think for me, if I could call it out, it's like, I love the security and of having a relationship, whether it was good, bad, or you know it for some reason, it was just it was better than being alone.

I didn't like to be alone.

Yeah, well, I absolutely relate with that. I think for me, I thought that the potential outweighed the risk of what was in front of me. I am really good at potentializing, and I just saw what could be versus what was So I looked at it like, well, if I keep getting better, maybe i'll be enough and that will create the change to make this person not treat me the way they're treating me.

But I also think it's a mind twist. So I hear you on that, But I also think it's the guy because you know, for my ex he'd always be like, I'll never do it again, It'll never happen again. So it's off of their you say, because of their broken promises. He hooked line and sinkred, you know what I mean? Like, how many times has a guy been like, oh, I won't do that again and You're like, Okay, well I guess I'm going to try to believe him, you know right?

Yeah?

Ava, is this resonating with you?

Yeah?

So, in the instance of his name's Paula, the guy that died in the plane crash, I didn't know he was cheating. So he died on a Wednesday, and five days later at the memorial service that we had at the airport, is when I learned of these other women.

And then I got it confirmed that night.

So I had five days of quasi grief and then it was straight to everything's a lie.

How did I miss this so much?

Shame, guilt, all the things, and this realization that my whole relationship with him, it was all it was, everything was a lie.

And so then it was the like how to wrap my brain around that?

You know?

And he every time I would question him, it was met with you're so insecure, you're so crazy.

And he would only call me by my last name.

Oh that's interesting.

Yeah, I've wondered if that was a way to make sure that he didn't accidentally call me one of the other women's names.

I think, oh, well, there you have it. There's that's interesting theory. I get really I don't want to say triggered, but I get really frustrated when I hear a guy say, oh, she was crazy, because I'm like, that's the first thing a guy goes to is she's crazy, And it's like, well,

Oh yeah, it's the most dismissive word I think that anyone can use about someone else.

I've actually stopped male members of my family when they describe others that way, and I'm like, wait, time out.

I just want to share with you the power of this word.

And is this person in the mental institution when you're referring to them as crazy or is there I mean I can go like full itt.

Well no, because we've all gone through things too, and I think that's like, I mean, I know that I'm labeled as in someone's past like oh she's crazy, and like yeah, I A probably was right, and like where's the empathy for people that do go through things and work through things, and like we're able to have a crazy moment and also be able to to you know, detour rite and go all right, now I've worked on my stuf or continuing to like heal and work and

So I think too, you know, being able to say you're acting like something versus you are something, right, because that's it was never you're acting crazy, it was you are crazy. And both of those relationships so you know, the one that passed away tragically, and then the following one was so fascinatingly good with lying that it made me feel crazy because I was going but wait, I was in the same room when you lied, and now

It's so true. I mean I had to post a war I had a relationship like that. But I'm like, but wait, I'm like I had to write things out to go am I freaking nuts? Or or did X, Y and Z actually happen? And I'm like, yes it did. But they the way that the certain men are able to twist it to make you feel insane, I'm like, holy crap, and you can't see it then you know,

I mean I had to take a lot of showers as I was writing the book, you know.

And because as you know, you like you get to your core. Writing is totally different.

We can do these little micro moments of emotion, but with the book, it was like.

I gotta go, I gotta go take a shower.

So the last guy, what were the things that he did that were the biggest red flags for you?

And then why you stayed?

Yeah, So the first thing was I didn't do the work in between. And I really want to specify that I didn't go to grief counseling.

I didn't do the therapy.

I just you know, went into I will get over it, I will move on, I will fix me.

So I'm still so vulnerable. And the first thing he said to me.

Was I'm gonna when he was, you know, showing interest in all those things, it was, I'm going to show you that you can.

Trust men again.

Oh my god.

Yep, God see doesn't just irritated you didn't even hear. And yet in the moment, I was like, wow, like is he is? He? Is he going to?

You know?

So true?

I had that one guy the same, the same dude that was very gas light. He was like, I don't want you to ever rear makeup around me, because I want you to know like how beautiful you are without all this stuff. He's like, take it all off, like take off the rings and the bracelets and the like the makeup. And he's like, and just stay like that because because you He's like, that's how you're beautiful.

And I'm like.

What, Also, where do they go to school for this?

But it made me feel so beautiful in that moment, And then I was like, wait a minute, it was just a line.

It's just so interesting.

I don't know where they go mm hmm to like get this intel on how to manipulate, and it's pro level. And I think the one thing, you know, as I'm thinking about you, Ava seventeen, and I have a niece named Ava too, So that just makes me just love you even more is you know, we're just not taught, we're not taught to what to look out for. And so I just I'm so proud that you have this

I didn't have any access. I didn't know even where to look. I didn't even know what gas lighting was, like none of that.

I still feel like though even though they this generation has all the stuff, yeah, girls still fall in the same category. Like I feel like we still have to have the same conversations that we'd have no matter what, Like Ava, you don't deserve that, you deserve better, Like if a guy isn't showing up for you and isn't doing what he says, like you shouldn't like stop, like, stop stop liking that kind of person, like he's he's not the right dude.

You know.

But but you know, at seventeen, it's like we think, and then or thirty and then forty, it's like this is the same kind of thing. It's like, I don't think. I think girls just we fall into that that the role in the game of it all. I don't know, I mean, does that does that make sense? Because it's like I could tell you till I'm blue in the face, like that one guy, I'm like, Ava, stop like he's not a good dude. He's not That's not how a guy should treat a girl, especially when you were sixteen.

You know.

No, but this is default. This is what we do. This is what we all do. It starts so young.

I have found through this process and Jane, I don't know. I mean, you got your babies, You're precious. I mean, like you're surrounded with so much love. And I find that now that I'm really owning and loving myself for all my stuff, I can be alone.

Yes, I can be alone in a way I could never be alone before.

And so relate to what you're saying, because it is it just like I don't want to be alone, and I think that's what we have to encourage others.

You've got to be good with being just alone and then people won't take advantage of us.

I had to be forced alone to be okay with being alone, you know, like when I went through my divorce and like I had no other choice, and then when the dating world was just realizing that I had to be alone, I literally was like that moment where I was like, I have no other choice, but I but I need to be alone so I can figure

I get all that.

But still it's you know, it's why we write, It's why you write the books, right, So I mean, what are some of the tips that you given the book, like for because I'm sure you wrote it with Campbell, Yeah.

Expert in narcissism, he was writing about narcissism fifteen years ago. I like the very beginning, well not the beginning of the conversation, it's been around forever, but really giving it the real world terminology. Sure, I think for me now, some of the flags are you know, if it doesn't sound right and it doesn't feel right, and if your gut senses something in your.

Head cocks sideways, you know, so many times that'll happen. I don't. I don't question myself, right, That's I used to.

I used to override my intuition and my gut and every time it was unfortunately confirmed that I wasn't misleading myself. But I would override that. So I think that's super important, right. And also when people show us who they are, we need to believe them.

M hm.

There I mean, we're humans are very revealing off the bat. They can say all the things that we want to hear, but their actions, right yeah, are so powerful.

That's what I tell people now when they ask me, like, what's the difference, and how do you trust Alan, I'm like, I've I've never I mean not even a second, have I not trusted that human because he is constantly doing what he says and says what he does, like, I mean, there is not I mean, he would be the greatest mastermind ever if some thing ever happened, because and I would just be like I you know, because he is uncle.

At that point, You're just like, I guess at.

That point, I'm like, I'll go lesbian, you know what I mean. I mean I wouldn't, but I would. I would be a okay being alone, but I would just be like, well done, you know, because that's just I mean, how he's so respectful, he's so like how he loves and supports and I'm like, unlike anything I've ever experienced before. So that's why I'm like, I trust him because he has not given me a reason to not trust him.

Same I so relate to that.

David is there's no drama, yes, just like solid, even keeled, and I'm just like this.

This is how it's this is what healthy feels like.

But I think when I was so, I'm so familiar with unhealthy that it feels awkward at first.

Why do you think you allowed that into your life? Like where do you think in your past that you went, Okay, this is this is how it's supposed to feel.

M gosh.

You know, when I think about my boyfriends before Paulo, they were just boys, right, They just weren't equipped to be in relationships.

But they weren't bad guys. They just weren't you know, they.

Were unemployed and you know, lived on my couch, and you know, they were just boys. I think with him, I think I was so captivated and just taken by him, and he was taken by I mean, he was all in. I mean when you talk about the word love bombing, I didn't know what that was. I was just like, oh, all of this is how it's supposed to be. You know,

Like, was your debt or was it like is it was it family dynamic? Was it childhood or was it just good.

Blended divorces all the same stuff that everyone spend through. I just think that I was really good at potentializing or the word romanticizing, right.

I always wanted a family, and with him, I got the family.

I got him and his amazing daughter who's still you know, very much before my life, and she's incredible. And you know, he he wove a good game. He wielded words really well. And then the second one was just you know, I mean repeater syndrome for sure.

How did you get out then?

Because I think that's another one that I get asked a lot, like how did you got I know, my out, but like, what did you do with that? Was your kind of like aha moment?

Well, I went to the edge unfortunately in that relationship from the standpoint of when I learned that he was or he had been accused of cheating on me. I didn't go to him saying you did this. I went to him saying, you've been accused of this. I can't believe I'm here again. I'm tapping out.

See that is such strength.

Well, the problem was my way of tapping out was drinking a handle of vodka, and so that took me to my lowest point, Jana, where I was considering, like, how do I get rid of this pain? Because I can't I can't hurt like this anymore. And because I hadn't done the work, it all had compounded. So then that led me into what I call emotional rehab, where I went to work with psycho and just get to

Did she was it a good I mean, I respect the women that I'm saying, Like I talked to some of the affair girls, and I respected I was very upset with one of them, obviously, like the longtime one, like I had a tough conversation, but I respected some of the girls that all of them actually that had the the balls to have a conversation with me.

It's yeah, exactly.

And I just leaned into that because she didn't know that he was in a relationship according to her you know, experience, and when she was able, you know, when you know someone in the way that they speak to you, sure, and then someone else says, how the way that he spoke to her, that's what did it for me. And I was like, Okay, this is this is real and

Stuff and just made the break.

Because he was so good, he was so good at manipulating a line, and he had such good reason for everything.

It took a lot.

What would be the thing that you want people to know?

Hmm, you are your greatest advocate and trust yourself because you are rarely going to be wrong.

And that's the gift that God gives each and every one of us. Is this intuition, And the more we lean into it and trust it, the more it shows up for us. And just I don't know if you feel this way, but I feel like it just gets stronger and stronger to where you just don't even waste your time with people.

You can just sense it.

You're like, no, this is not healthy, not healthy for me, and I'm going to walk away. And I think that we owe it to ourselves to treat ourselves like we treat our friends, you know, like we're so good to other people, you know. I mean you think about your baby, you wouldn't do anything for them?

And would we do anything for ourselves? You know?

And that was a big revelation for me, is like how much I give to others, but I wouldn't give myself the same treatment? Like start with yourself, you know, like Ava, when you wake up tomorrow morning, how do you feel with no one around, not looking at your phone? Like how does Ava feel about Ava?

Today?

And start from there, because I think we get such an influx of not only social media information, but friends and family and expectation and all these things like just how do you feel about you? And like that's been really a fun discovery, like how does Stephanie feel about Stephanie today?

Like how are we doing? Let's move from that.

Place, and I think it's just a really healthy, a healthier mindset, right, And we have access to really great therapists, really great grief counselors, much more affordably than I think ever before.

Seek out the information because it's there.

I mean, my hope, I don't know Jane if you feel this way, but my hope is like people will get time back, like I'll never get those what I call the lost years back, I'll never get get them back. And I feel like I'm probably trying to make up for a lot of that, you know, I just stretching my days as much as I can and not wasting any time.

Well, and you're, you're, you're doing it all too. I mean, you're you have your music career, you know, You're You've got the book out, So it's like you're you're juggling a lot of things while also doing some hard work.

Yeah, I think that.

We're never going to stop learning. And I think it's what this book has revealed is I have so much more to learn about myself and so much more to kind of dive into of Just like I love making adjustments, I just want to be better, right, that's that's you know.

I was talking to my stepmom.

Who she's just just an incredible woman, and she's like, success, true success is when you wake up and can go to bed liking the person that you are and be like this person did a good job today, or you know what, I need to make an adjustment.

I'm gonna be better tomorrow.

And I think that you know, in this business, we have such wild goals for success and what our.

Levels of success are.

But man, that's a super simple version, like do you like yourself today?

Right? Yeah?

Well, Steph, I love you and I've always just been a fan of you, So I'm so excited for everything that you're doing. Everyone please please go get her book? Why do we stay? And I'm just I'm so excited for you, and I hope I'm so much success for the book.

Well, right back at you, I just want to commend you because you're a kicking tail every which way. I didn't get to have littles, and I just commend you for how you when you talk about juggling, you navigate it and you share it and you show.

People it's all possible and that's just awesome. And ab it, you got a good auto. You right there.

I'm trying.

I still think she's like five. I'm like, how are you seventeen? I still tell people you're like, sex, isn't it? Yeah?

I know, it's crazy.

I appreciate you so much.

Thank you for having appreciate you stuff. Thank you