Wind Down with Janet Kramer and iHeartRadio podcast. This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Matt Gutman. He is ABC news Chief National correspondent, a multi award winning reporter, and he's got a book out called No Time to Panic. How I Curb My anxiety and Conquered a lifetime of panic attacks.
Let's get him on. How are you, Matt good?
How are you?
Thank you for coming onto wind Down?
So excited.
I'm excited because I have dealt with anxiety since I was nineteen years old and I'm forty now, so it's been just a journey, and so I love I love speaking to people that are open about talking about anxiety because just like when I was reading more about you, because I know who you are, obviously I've seen you on the news and everything that you've done, But you don't know what actually someone is going through. You just see who they are, you know, and what you might think they are.
Right.
So the fact that you even said yourself like that you were privately dealing with anxiety for how many years?
I mean with panic for twenty years? Yeah, anxiety my whole life, right, Like I just you know, I'm a little bit older than you are, and so maybe there was like a half or like quarter generational difference.
But not by much. What are you forty five forty six?
Yeah? Okay, But nobody talked about anxiety when I was young, Like they talked about depression. That was something that people were concerned about, but nobody like I don't remember hearing anxiety or maybe that was reserved for like you know, just like the most neurotic Jews, like, oh, they have anxiety, but nobody talked about it. It's like something that everybody experiences. Are many many people do?
What was for you?
What was the moment that you had your first that you can tie back? Because for me, have you done EMDR and stuff too?
Do you know that's the one thing that I have not done. I've done everything I've done, like all the cognit to behavioral therapy, every pharmacological thing. I never did EMDR and I had a practitioner and I was like, eh, but I've heard it's great.
Yeah, I love it, big advocate for EMDR. But in your past, like, can you draw back that moment like where you think that anxiety was a coming from and then one was the first kind of panic attack?
That you had.
I mean, my first real panic attack was I think I had meaning while I was like super high achiever and put a lot of pressure on myself and like, I think my mom did too. So I went to a school called Williams College, which is a pretty fancy liberal arts college, and my essay to get in was about like a tongue in cheek thing about how my mom thought I was a prophet, and like, well, do you offer classes in being a profit or prophecy at
Williams Because my mom thinks that I'm a prophet. So there was like a lot of press and I love my mom.
It's a lot of pressure, A lot.
Of pressure like it, but it was like super high cheap. I was captain of the football team, captain of the lacrosse, school council president, all aps, you know, is super hard charging,
but I was also a disaster inside. And when I was school council president, you have to deliver, you know, a daily address to the school in front of the podium, and I would have these bouts of what I thought were nerves and I get very anxious and I kind of have tunnel vision and my mouth would get really dry, and these were all symptoms of anxiety or panic, but my first like sweating through my underpants. I'm molting into a werewolf. Something is taking over my body and I
don't know what it is type of panic. Was giving my or defending my college thesis my senior year, and I remember I was wearing a turtleneck sweater, which is a really bad idea whenever you're giving an address, do
not publicly wearing a turtleneck sweater. But I thought it looked like very cool lead you, like, you know, academic and intellectual, and so I remember going up there and sudden they're cats clawing at my neck and their feral cat like started itching and like I had tunnel vision, and my heart started to feel like it was bursting through my chest and I couldn't breathe, and my mouth went dry, and I had feelings of like complete loss
of control. This is like classic panic attack, and I had no idea what was happening to me.
We thought you were probably my first panic attack. I'm like, I'm dying. I'm having a heart attack and I'm dying.
Well, which is super common, right, Like you know, forty percent of everybody who goes to the er complaining of chest pain in the United States is having a panic attack. And fifty eight percent, almost two thirds of all the people who checked themselves in where cardiac issues at the er are either having panic or anxiety. Wow, that's how chronic it is in the US, and that's how or diagnosed it is. And most of those people are sent packing back home not being told that it was anxiety.
They're told, Okay, you know, we can tell you, we've done the EKGs. You're not having a heart attack. We don't exactly know what it is. Only some of them are actually told this is anxiety related. You're okay, you don't have to come back if those exact symptoms persist, if you you know, I don't want to let anybody think out there that if they are having a heart attack that they should not go to right.
Yeah, yeah, still go to the doctors if you feel, yeah.
The problem is. And it's like in the intro to my book, is that you know I interviewed this woman named Kelly croppol Or, who is the a nine to one one operator for seventeen years. Jennen. She was like she had done everything, she had heard every possible call you could imagine, and she was never in her seventeen year career, able to discern the difference between someone who was having a panic attack given the symptoms, and someone who was having a heart attack. To her, it sounded
the same. It's chest pain, shortness of breath, sweating, trembling, shaking, tunnel vision, feelings of impending death. Like all of the symptoms are so closely linked. And there's actually a reason
for that evolutionarily. And I know you just recently did a podcast about the good anxiety, right, yeah, and there is, like there's really good science behind it, and that is your body is trying to let you know that whatever behavior you're doing at that time is a threat or is scary to it, and so it's trying to tell you in the most powerful, possible memorable way not to repeat that behavior. So for some people it's not you don't always want to listen to that anxiety. It's not always the good.
Anxiety, right exactly.
You just have to like figure it out. But you know, public speaking is something that we have to do in our society, so there are ways of getting over it. But basically, yeah, a panic is like the evolution tionary way your body is trying to tell you to avoid a certain behavior and to make it memorable.
Have you ever had a panic attack when you were on air?
Hundreds of my problem. I just want to tell people what a panic attack is, right. So a panic attack is your brain telling your body that it is in threat, right, and it is essentially the stress response. And it's that same thing that you'd feel when you're driving on the freeway to downtown Nashville and there's a pile up in front of you, and your body just jumps into action and you feel like the loosening of your teeth kind of you feel that jolt of adrenaline, and you feel
the bubbling in your stomach. It's the same kind of thing, and your body wants you to remember it, and your body basically would prefer you having a thousand false alarms, which is a panic attack, so long as you don't miss the one real alarm, which is the pile up on the freeway or the interstate. So your body's kind of rig to protect you in that way, even though a panic attack is massively uncomfortable. But I didn't know
any of this at the time. So, like after college, and men are really good at this, I compartmentalized panic attack talking about my thesis and Jenna like, I know a lot of people experience this too, but like that thesis, the thesis was graded, the talk was not like it
wasn't even mandatory. There was nothing riding on my performance, and yet I felt that I was inadequate and that everything was writing on it, and I put so much pressure on myself that I had this panic attack when there was nothing riding on it, and so I put it away because I'm really good at compartmentalizing stuff, and I didn't deal with it. And then I started to do print reporting, and I moved to Israel and I was covering the Palestinian uprising there in the early two thousands.
Then I covered the war in he and Afghanistan, and I went to Syria and Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. I was all over the Middle East covering wars and conflicts,
and I was okay. And then I started doing ABC Radio and I realized that words started to magically disappear from the paper I was reading off and my hands would tremble, and there was sort of the telltale signs of whatever terrible experience I'd had in college and then came back to the US, and I realized that I was having these bouts of quote unquote nerves more frequently when live on air and on television, and over the years, I had them hundreds of times, hundreds and hundreds of
panic attacks on air, and the brutal irony of it was that the EPs, the executive producers of the shows were like, oh, man, Guvernment really has so much energy on air. I love him live, Let's put him on live more. Because I was literally like pooping my pants. You know, I'm having a full on panic attack, which is like a surge of a right on it. So I am zinging with energy and lifeblood. But it's massively
uncomfortable and painful and just it sucked. But it kind of like helped me get where I was, ironically and where I am today, because it seemed like I was just so full of energy, but what was happening was we're panic attacks, and that just like it continued until January twenty sixth, twenty twenty, when.
I like, that's when it stopped. In twenty twenty, No, that's when I had a reckoning.
Oh okay, was it because you had more time to or was it because everything was falling apart around you and the world and everything happening, that you were able to kind of look more inside because I think there was so much reflection during that time, because it was so noisy but yet so quiet in our homes that we had to kind of face what was our internal loudness?
Right?
Yeah, I mean I had to face this internal loudness. And it was just before the pandemic actually started. And you know, I've been all over the world for ABC. I've reported now from like sixty countries, forty eight states or nine states. I still haven't done North Dakota, but like, I've been everywhere, and I've done a lot of things.
And I was home actually on January twenty sixth, twenty twenty, and I got a call from my boss and she's like, and I live in Los Angeles in an area called Encino and Calabasas, where Kobe Brian's helicopter went down is only like ten miles away, and suddenly there is this global story happening in my backyard. And the boss is like, hey, I need you to get to Calabasas asap. We think Kobe Brian's helicopter went down, and we think his daughter Gianna and maybe some of the other we're not sure
who's on there. We've got to get you there a SAP. So I jetted out and during our first live special report on Kobe's death, I made a critical reporting error. And I'd had something very similar happen to me when I was twelve and my father was forty one, so basically the exact same ages as Kobe and Gianna. My father was killed in a plane crash and he was exactly it was forty two and three months when it happened, and I had just eclipsed his age, and so my
whole life, Janna, I thought. And I'd lived life with like blazing speed. I got married, I had kids, I'd been to war, I fallen in love in Argentina, I had, you know, jumped from airplanes, swam with sharks, you know, been shot at. I'd packed everything that I possibly could into the forty two years because I thought, well, I'm not going to live past forty two. That's going to
be a natural terminus of my lifespan. And then once it happened, I was like, oh what now, And I didn't And that was just before the Kobe crash happened, and so I was in this weird like you mentioned that that headspace. I was in that weird headspace when this happened. And then finally the thing I'd feared most, which is losing control while live on television, yeah, and making a critical mistake happened and ABC suspended me for
a month. I had to make a decision with my life, like I had been miserable in my job because of the panic attacks for years. I told my wife about it, and she's like, you know, babe, if this makes you so unhappy, we'll downsize. We'll change jobs. Dude, do whatever you need to do. She was very supportive, And I've been thinking about getting out of TV news because, like,
it sucked. I hated the experience of having not only to experience the panic attack, but anybody who's got anxiety out there or experiences panic knows that the anticipatory anxiety of having a panic attack is as bad as the actual feeling of being in one in the moment. And she's like, do what you gotta do. And you know,
suspension has a way of opening up your schedule. So during the month that I had to like twittle my films and like beat myself up and not sleep and hate myself and feel guilty for the mistake I made and any pain I caused this poor family. You know, Kobe Bryant's the patron saint of Los Angeles. Like the guy was a hero to so many. Aside from being a great basketball player, he was like massively philanthropic and great for this city and like just a good person
and so like I was like, okay, what now. So I had a buddy who was on the lacrosse team in high school who'd now become a yoga instructor and breath coach, breathwork coach, and so was like he'd been telling me for so long to do breath work, and I'm like, oh, I have a bread or what is this meditation to voodoo brews?
Exactly?
Yeah, And then I went and did it because I had time. And I was like, you know, sitting in this room in Venice, California, which is like the crunchiest hippiest place, and what was it called like serenity or sanctumy called sanctum like weeked of Petuli, And I'm like whoa. I go in there and I lie down on my body.
Lane Jaffe, who was just a fantastic practitioner and breathwork coach, just starts telling us, like gets us in the spirit in the head mode, and you know, if people have ever done holotropic breath work, it's kind of like this. You're breathing in twice belly chest out, and you're doing it over and over and over again, and eventually what happens is you're going to hyperventilate, and that means you're taking in too much oxygen and you need carbon dioxide
to break down oxygen. So what you're doing is depriving your body of oxygen. So the oxygen rich blood goes to the center of your body or core, and the rest of your body starts to go numb, and so people get lobster claws, and like I started locking up like this, and my legs locked up, and you go, if you keep going into an altered stake and you're not taking drugs, you're not on anything other than living and changing the pH balance in your body, it's nuts.
And suddenly, like I'm lying there on the floor with a bunch of total strangers and I started sobbing, you know, really crying in a way that I hadn't done in many, many, many years, probably since my father died, like thirty years before that. And I'm crying and crying and Lane comes and he holds space like he just presses all my legs. It's like, I'm here, but keep going, like he doesn't
say that, but that's what he's saying. And it was an amazing cathartic experience weeping in front of these people, and then they were like so massively supportive. And I went back and did it again the next week and cried again, and it was just wonderful, and I realized that, you know, so the panic is a symptom of something else that I've got to go find. I don't know what it is, but I threw myself in it like I would throw myself into any other reporting project or investigation.
And that's like in my own everybody's got to find the modality that works for them. For me, it's like, all right, I have an objective. I am an investigative reporter. I am going to go report the crap out of whatever this thing is that's bothering me. And that's how actually actually not how the book started yet, because I was just trying to fix me. But this is how the journey started. And I know journey is like a cliche term at this point, but that's what it was
for me. It was like three and a half years of trying everything other than the MDR to like figure this out.
Sure, in your book, no time to panic. What is one of the best tips that you think you've put in there for people to help overcome this panic anxiety order disorder?
Listen, I'll put it into a couple of categories. The first category is like, and you know everybody is everybody is different.
Sure, what works for one person might not work for the other.
And yeah, I'm not a psychologist, and I don't think a psychologist is a perfect fit for every patient. But I know what worked for me. I am someone who does things in the extremes, right like I have been covering conflict in war for twenty four years, right Like I am drawn to that place where life is closest to death and where people are experiencing often the worst days of their lives. For me, the intensity of being there and trying to tell their stories is what gets
me going and what keeps me in this business. And I'm drawn to it in the US as well, and that's just part of what I do. So for I was so good and had become so good an expert in fact, in compartmentalizing and saying, Okay, whatever is the symptom of this panic or whatever is the underlying disease quote unquote of my panic. I'm going to put that to the side because I'm really good at that, and I couldn't access it even in talk therapy, which I've
been in for many many years. Couldn't access it with just talk therapy. I needed Jennet to get out of my right mind in order to access it. So for me, psychedelics were very, very helpful because I needed to get out of Matt Gutman in order to examine Matt Gutman's That's interesting.
I was going to do I was going to try ayahuasca, but I'm so I hate not being in control that I was like, I just can't do it. I just I literally It's why you know, I've been drunk once in my life. Like, I don't do drugs. I don't like to feel out of control. It's the fear for me, it's always my anxiety is like the fear of kind of the unknown right, So like I'm afraid the plane might crash when I'm on it.
I'm afraid, you know, I'm going.
To get stuck in Italy when we go on our honeymoon, and it's going to be a disaster. Like I fear the unknown coming up. And that's what always kind of holds me captive with my anxiety now a days. But it's I just for some reason, I couldn't do it. And then again, like it says it works for I've heard amazing things about psychedelics for that, I just I just can't do it.
I needed to lose control. I understand why you are. And worrying is like one of the greatest evolutionary traits that primates apes, great apes humans had ever developed, Like we learned. The reason you're sitting there with your MacBook on your lap and you know, a really nice microphone and we're able to communicate two thousand miles away from
each other is because humans created were worriers. We got scared sooner, and we developed technologies to be able to make our lives easier or to be able to alleviate some of our worries, from fire to the wheel to wireless technology to the iPhone, right, Like all of this is because humans were trying to alleviate their future concerns. So anxiety has been like the greatest invention ever in the history of the planet. It just doesn't feel good always, but.
It's very helpfulful.
Yeah, I had to lose control, right the only way I could find healing is if I found a way to lose control, and if I was essentially conscious or like, if I had control over my mind, I wasn't going to let go.
I heard a therapist tell me recently on here actually that you should you should do the thing that worries you and have your anxiety because then you realize it didn't kill you. So she's like, like, I am so fearful of being because my mind is triggered from PTSD from being trapped when abuser was trying to kill me, and so I don't like to feel trapped. So when I'm on the expressway and it's I will not go on there if it's traffic, because if I feel stuck,
I will go a full blown panic attack. Like no matter if I'm on medication or not or worked on it a million times in the MDR, it's just my body will just like freak out. And so she's she's like, she's like, go do it at five pm rush hour. I'm like, I just I don't want to. I literally don't want to.
I would just take the side streets. It's fine.
But that's how that's how someone had said to do that. But I'm like, I don't want to feel it, you know, I know I'll be fine. That's the thing at the end of the day, Like now I know, Okay, it's just anxiety. I will be fine, Like I'm not gonna die.
Have you done cognitive behavioral therapy, I mean that's what it sounds like she was advising as a form of that.
But I've done I've done versions of it. Yeah, like I've done and where you know, I would talk through it, have the anxiety. But she was saying, like, physically, go do it, like get in the car, get in a jam packed freeway.
And I was like them, good.
So, typically, you know, exposure therapy, cognitive behavior of therapy CBT is a little bit more gradual, like most therapists are not going to throw you into the pit of the thing that you fear most immediately. They would say, okay, is there a side street that typically has worse traffic. You know that, like the lights back up and you get a little bit slower. Try that first, then go don't go into like the peak of rush hour. Try three pm or seven pm, and then work up to
the five pm rush hour like gridlock. The other issue I have with CBT is that I think it's kind of male centric, and it tells us the basic premise is that the thing you fear is unreasonable. The problem with that is the thing you fear, Janna and the thing that I feared were not only reasonable, they happened. You were trapped by a person who has tried to kill you, Like you've experienced your biggest fear, and so you're cognitively certain, well, that thing can happen. I can
become trapped, and I have been trapped. So to brain out of it, to tell your brain that it's unreasonable to fear that thing is crazy, and same with you. Like I feared losing control on air, and then I lost control on air and I said something that was wrong and badly wrong and may have hurt people and certainly hurt my career for a period of time. But like my worst fear about panic actually happened, which is why I felt like, Okay, this is a big deal.
I need to treat it as if it's a big deal, and I'm going to do everything that I need to do and I'm going to throw put my head through the wall to get there. That was just like the mental contortion that I had to get to in order to work towards healing. But again, like different modalities work for different people.
Sure, what is the biggest takeaway that you want for people when they read this book?
Okay, So like, first of all, it's knowing what panic is, which super helped me, you know, and no Time to Panic. That the title is sort of like you know, has double meaning. One is like I got time to panic, Like I got to live life, my work, I want to be with my kids, want I don't want to be riddled with anticipatory anxiety. And the other part was like this is not the time to panic, Like I do not want to be panicking now. And so I
learned a couple of things. First, I went into this crazy jag on evolutionary psychology, like I couldn't understand why it was the humans panic to begin with, Like how could this be evolutionarily beneficial. Right. The bottom line is that your brain doesn't care if you suffer or not. It wants you to live. And the founder of evolutionary psychiatry, Randy NeSSI, was like, no, panic is one hundred percent normal.
Your body would prefer you having one thousand panic attacks as long as you don't miss an actual stress response, right that pile up on the freeway. So you don't miss the pile up on the freeway and you're alive. Your body doesn't care, So a panic is normal. It's okay. You're not like some weird kink in the human genome if you have panic attacks. Because I thought I was two.
The period of panic is fifteen to ninety seconds, and that interesting, the period in which your brain is assessing a threat fifteen to ninety seconds, and after that you're still feeling something, and that's cortisol finishing its work through your system, and a drenalones already passed through. You're feeling anxiety after that, and all of us can deal with anxiety.
We deal with it on a regular basis. So I tell people like, just know, you can get anybody can get through fifteen to ninety seconds, Like we can get through that, and the rest is anxiety. That's cake, right, Like we all live with anxiety. So if you can get through the fifteen to ninety seconds, that's all the actual panic is. The next thing is there are ways to try to prevent having a panic in the first place,
like forget dealing with it acutely. When you're in the midst of a panic, everybody wants the new pharmacological trick, or tell me what kind of psychedelic I need to take, or what's the feenine or whatever additive that I need to put in my coffee that'll make me better. The trick is like, be kind to your body, right, don't drink that extra cup of coffee before you have a presentation. Coffee will give you like if you have too much caffeine,
it will help trigger a panic attack. Get your exercise, eat right, take a walk, breathe air, like all the stuff we know that we should be doing. That is kind of kinder and gentler to our body. We should be doing and reduces the incidence of panic and anxiety. That's science. We have all the chemicals we need, and you're talking to a guy who has tried every psychedelic chemicals. But I have all the chemicals that I need in
my own body in order to adjust myself right. I take a five minute walk and I get a dose of serotonin, which is what I would take when I did seventeen years or eighteen years of taking an SSRI, an antidepressant. Ste Like, you have that in your body and you can secrete it when or you can get
it going with the hormone going in your body. When you take a five minute while sunshine, you get endorphins, which is indogenous morphine, the morphine your body creates naturally by going for a run or exercising hard for thirty minutes. You get oxytocin by crying, by letting yourself cry, which is not a terrible thing, or by hugging a loved one chest to chest, like when you actually nuts, you know, the guy hug.
It's like me and my fiance we have we do as was it a five six second kiss and a like a fifteen second hug, Like that's what they say it gives you. It does, Yeah, it makes your brain waves.
All My wife and.
I have a thing. Whether they're like you know, like there's like the the fifty percent hug and then the seventy five percent, hug in the eighty five and then like sometimes you need one hundred percent, which is like, just like you said, the fifteen seconds of fully embracing, not like the pad, but like in each other. And
that's the science of it. You're releasing oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone, and if feels are really good and it helps, okay, And once you're if you're in a panic attack, there are a couple of mindfulness techniques that that I like or if I feel it coming on. Uh, And luckily I've been pretty panic free for a few years now since doing the book. But what I like and I do anyway, is a five senses routine.
Love that one?
You know that one?
Right?
Yeah?
I was like one thing I noticed in the room right now that I don't notice? What do I smell? What do I hear? What do I taste? What was the other one?
Yeah?
So I do five things that I see, and I pick things that are like like you kind of did, either vibrant or things I might not notice. So I'm looking around and you can the good thing about this is that nobody has to know you're doing a mindfulness technique. It's not like you're tapping yourself weirdly that people do. It's not weird, but yeah, you think or you know, I do a beaded meditation thing where I I have a string and I go down beats and I do
it my imagination. But you can do this one like and people are thinking you're completely with them, just standing. So five things you see, four things you hear, and you have to isolate the sounds around you, which is fantastic because it really takes your mind off of panic.
And the beauty is your brain's just not that great at focusing on multiple things at once, so when you start finding and isolating sounds, that's when the symptoms of panic start to abate because your brain just can't cut it. Three things you feel like, I feel the shoes on my feet, I feel my pants on my legs, I feel my butt in my seat. Then you can do a feel more if you want. Two things you smell, which is often hard for me, and one thing you taste, and just like you go five, four, three two.
One, Yeah, no, I love that one. I think it's I think it's so good.
I've done that many times in my room when I was alone and I felt I was scared or whatever, I would do that one a lot. I also to my therapist, she said, uh, when you when you don't give it power, Like for me, usually I would hold it in and my my best friends wouldn't even know that I'm having a panic attack. But she's like start saying, like, hey, I'm having a panic attack right now. She's like, you
give it less power. And that's been something that's been helpful because then people can either you know, try to be like, oh, like is there anything, just to know that like you're not alone in the situation, that someone they may not understand what you're going through, but they can at least be there for you one hundred percent.
That is so. And I didn't learn that until twenty twenty two. So I'd been dealing with panic for twenty two years before I finally admitted to someone in the moment and this was like doing an interview. It was the first time I've ever had in a panic attack just talking to someone, and I just I just come from a cognitive behavioral therapist. It's like, just as you said, you know, you take you defang it by naming it, and I was like, I'm sorry, I just need a second.
I'm having a panic attack. I've never had this before. And then like five seconds later, I'm like, oh, okay, I'm back. Yeah, I'm so powerful.
Yeah I love that.
The last full on panic attack I had in May of twenty two, so yeah, like that's your one hundred percent right, and that is so powerful. I'm kind of curious, like, how often do you experience panic?
I don't as much anymore. Mine now is just more of the fear of things like when I go travel and when I'm not with my kids. I have more anxiety when I travel.
Now.
I just had a third so you know, and older and hormones and so I'm trying to level it back out. I've been off medicine now for a few years, and I was on for nineteen years or something, but I was on lexebro Okay, yeah, but I got off of it and you know, doing all the tips and tricks, and truly was when I got divorced that my anxiety stopped. But then now it's come back in just different areas
of my life. But I've been managing to can just control it better and feel I feel pretty good of where it's at right now, it's just more of the unknown fear stuff. But you know, that's where I just go back to him, like, all right, what is the worst that can happen? And why even you know, put that on such a beautiful memory that will be you know, had in a couple months, or you know, like I just don't need to do that because the reality is
it's probably going to be fine. You know, my kids will be fine, We will be fine, and it's you know, and kind of take it by the day, not by the future totally. But I do have one very sidebar question then we'll wrap it up because I just and you probably hate this question. You don't even have to
answer it if you don't want. But I've always been so interested to ask a news correspondent person what their thoughts on the morning show is and how accurate it is, Like do you watch it or are you like I hate it.
It's not I've never watched it. Okay, I've heard obviously a lot about it, but I've.
Never sure Okay, just because you're like I don't want to see what I live or you just the dramatization of it, or.
This is going to sound really obnoxious. But I just don't watch a lot of TV. It's like the cop kids go Barefoot. Sure, so we watch very very very little TV. And it's like, you know, I've got two kids, I've got this insane job with weird hours, and so like I put the kids to sleep and often I like, I read a page of a book and I'm out, I'm boring. So it's okay, it's like it anyway. But yeah, so I watch it. But yeah, but okay, I think there is I mean, having heard a lot about it,
you know, there are certain elements that are true. There are certain elements that are are not, that are dramatized, and sure there's a lot of drama.
It is a lot of drama.
People people have drama exactly.
Well, Matt, thank you so much for coming on the show. Everyone go get no time to panic. How I curb my anxiety and congret a lifetime of panic attacks, Matt, thank you so much.
Was fun.