Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Hey guys, welcome to wind Down. It's just so happened. We just so happened to have Mark here with us. Of course Easton and Catherine and Riley. Everyone's on. Hey guys, how you guys doing.
Okay, Well, let's get into it all right, So enough, so we had our revelation this week.
Everybody's talking about it. Let's talk about it.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Well, there was some posts this week in the media about you having a new man in your life. The name Ian has been out there. I don't think I'm breaking any news here. He is a fitness instructor, I believe. Not well, he sure looks like it. I mean the description works currently ripped.
He's got gat a great body, yes, but.
He's not a fitness and struck. No, he's his own shirts?
Because yeah, that's like the big topic.
Does he ever wear shirts? Listen? That has probably been the funniest thing that I've in my dms, because it's like half the people are like, does he own shirts? The other half of people are like, oh yeah, keep it off, like his shirt, Like he looks amazing. And then we were going to do a challenge on TikTok and someone was like, challenge your boyfriend to not wear a shirt for twenty four or to wear a shirt for twenty four hours. And I was like, there's no way he wouldn't be able to do it.
I wouldn't be able to wear one for twenty four hours.
I mean, you know he because he works out and you know he takes a shirt off and then he just that's true. In his defense, he's like, Jane, you keep the house at like seventy five dearies.
I mean I would sew shirt off too if I couldn't your house.
Why if I looked like that, I would never wear a shirt.
Why I'm a guy who wears a shirt at the beach, like I'm not happy with anything that's going on here.
If I look like that guy, I'd never wear a shirt.
I know.
That's kind of why. Like I'm like, you know, I don't hate it, you hear. My favorite thing.
About it is that, like Jane's stories, it's like snowing so heavily outside and then cut to the man not wearing a shirt.
Literally, I love it.
I love it.
I think what's so funny too, is like when I was I was talking to Catherine and I was like, Okay, you know, it's starting to people are starting to catch on the man and the reflection, and I was just trying to keep it a little bit more because I honestly didn't know, and not that I didn't know that I didn't like him, but that we were dating. But I just it's scary, it's scary to put it out there, and so I was just trying to keep it close.
And but I was trying to figure out what photos to put for the infeed, and I was like, Catherine, everyone I've selected, he does not have a shirt on. So I'm like, I have to add some changed. So I was like, Ian, I'm going just need you to start wearing a shirt, buddy.
Yeah, so what can we know more about this situation?
Like we know, so what can we know? What he does do? Is that allowed?
Yeah? So he he is in private private equity. Oh so he is a he's a former Navy seal, but he's actually in the Navy Seal Reserve right now. So he still has to go to Virginia or I believe at San Diego to you know, every so often to because he's still he's still a part of the Navy Seals, but he's in the reserve. So if a war went off, you know, he said we would discuss because he would probably want to go back and wow. Yeah, so yeah, so he was. He's been a Navy seal for a
long time. But now he works with another one of his Navy seal buddies in private equity. So I guess that they buy companies and sell them or something like that.
It's like totally, I like.
Don't like it seems like a better tax bracket than fitness instructors.
So I like the sound that he could be like in a meeting reviewing someone's portfolio and then just get the call and he has to like put on a parachute pack like go active combat.
Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean he's and then he's also he's uh, he's he's really big into CrossFit too, so he's actually training for the CrossFit games or open or whatever, so he does that as well.
I'm starting to feel a little insecure now now we were getting into a weird area.
Now why he's a superhero.
For that's how all the men feel.
I mean he's yeah, I mean he's he's pretty What is.
It my husband always says, he always says something.
A lot of people call him Captain America likes or some Rambow And he can hold his breath for like, oh yeah, he can hold his breath for like four and a half minutes or something crazy like that, talking about because like in the Seals, like it's I guess, I go. Do you realize that your girlfriend has to plug her nose like when she goes into water? Like, how does that make you feel that when I jump
in water, I'm plugging. I'm literally plugging my nose. And yet you can go down there for four and a half something minutes and hold your breath?
Wow?
I mean, because have you ever seen like what seals have to do to train? No, oh my god, it's like, I mean, people die training to be a seal because it's like the most like badass like training, And I mean they don't, was it not? I think he's downstairs. I can also I can grab him, but he.
Worms.
But just for our own confidence, can you please tell us he has like horrible breaths, like a micro penis or something.
But in the very beginning with the girl like my girls. When I met him, I was like, Okay, he's handsome, he's got a body to die for, like he's his freaking navy seal. He's an act, private act, like he's charming, he's nice, he's like kind, he's got a daughter, he's you know, he's a dad. And I'm like, he's got a small I bet you he has a small penis. That's it. That was like something has to be wrong with him, like he has to have a small and it's I said, it's very nice.
So what is something though? What does he do? This guy was something that's annoying.
Or here's the thing, like I mean. So I met him in October. So he's friends with Andrew East, Sean Johnson's husband, so they work out together. They do like this Dadder Days or whatever on Saturdays. And so when I I went to the the I wasn't actually supposed to be there, and he wasn't he didn't have his daughter that weekend, but his his ex let him, you know, have for the party. And so I go to the party and I see, you know, this guy in an orange shirt and I was like, oh man, he is kaute.
But obviously he's probably married, and you know, I don't really pay like much attention to it. But long story short, Andrew came over to me and was like, hey, there's a guy here I want you to meet. And I'm like, we're at a two year old kid's party, Like what are you doing?
You know what I mean?
Like, please don't try and set me up right now. And he's like, no, seriously, he's a really good dude. Navy see you like da la la la. He's like, he's the guy in the orange shirt. And I was like, shut up. I've been staring at him like this entire time. And then you know, we ended up meeting and that's how we met. And then we just you know talked and and yeah, kind of the rest is history.
Okay, well you're you're going to tell us something negative about him?
Oh no, October. I this honestly, like, how do I say this? It's been so nice not to have anything that's like I've never started, like because you know, like when I started with my ex two weeks and he cheated. So with this it's like I don't have anything that I can say like this bothers me or.
Yeah, I mean.
I will say okay, okay, so okay, there is one thing that he does. Okay, Mark's like, please give me. When he eats, he puts his teeth like on the top of his fork and I can hear the sound of it.
That's what I needed.
That.
And then he kind of eats like he's like a mountain man. So I'm like, do we close our mouth or like we do? I like that so now like every time. So we were to eating dinner last night and he like did it and he goes, oh, I'm sorry. I heard that one.
And I was like, okay, we all, we all need to.
Be trained, and cause he was kind of like, you know, I saw him like he had all the meat he was making dinner and all the meat on the table, and I was like, hey, babe, like next time, do you mind putting that on because it's like the chicken stuff is kind of grossing me out. And he's like, I'm sorry. He's like because he's so used to He's like, I eat dirt and I'm used to just preparing however, you know.
So.
He's roasting like a broncho saurus rib over an open flame.
Yeah, I'm not worried about the chicken.
Yeah, but I feel you know, I will get him on maybe one day. He's he's he's he doesn't like to be like in the spotlight, you know, like he's yeah, he's a normal dude, is a huge and he just is kind of like you do your thing. I mean, yeah, he's doing you know, the the CrossFit stuff, but he's just you know, he just so enjoys it, and I
just I want to support him however I can. But I think what the coolest thing about him is like he's we just have a lot of fun together and he pushes me to to you know, to uh just stretch my limits on things and where I'm scared, like he kind of pushes me and then where he you know, where he falls short in some areas, like I kind of push him to. So I just feel like it's just like a really good It just feels really nice.
And I will say I definitely have tried to push him away a few times, uh, just because I'm scared of it, and you know, I I uh, it's I've kind of been like what's her face? And how to lose a guy in ten day? Like I've had I've I've tried to how to lose a guy in ten days, just because it's just I'm scared and I'm I'm scared of and I was scared to post because I'm like, I don't want to be embarrassed. I don't want, you know, the same history to repeat itself. I don't you know?
And and but you know, Catherine says, this is dating and you don't know the end results. But are you happy?
Yes?
You know, do you? And from what I see, you know he's an honest man, and but I, yeah, I just get so scared. And there's there came a point I don't know, it was like a month ago, and he goes, why are you trying to push me away? And I was like, no, I'm not. And he's like, you are You are actively trying to push me away? And I don't. He's like why, And I just started
just bawling. And I was just like, because you're just gonna leave, and you're you're gonna cheat, or you're gonna lie, and and and he's just and and and then you know, I have to apologize and say I'm sorry, that's just my own fears and it's my own stuff and you've done nothing for me to think that. I was like, but it's just it's just scary, and I'm scared and I and you know the amount of times he've had he's had to like literally like look me in the face and go I am not going anywhere. I'm not
going to hurt you. And it's like I hear it. But then I'm like, I've heard those things before, and so I'm scared of that because it never was followed through last time. So of course you're going to let me down. Of course you're going to hurt me, because that's what happens with every serious relationship in my life, from my father to my ex husband.
So what can you do to reverse this cycle?
Because it can you just can you kind of get in the mindset of one day at a time.
Well and that yeah, and that's what I'm that's what I'm having to do now, where it's like, you know, I'm talking to my therapists about it and my friends and just going, Okay, he's not my ex. I cannot put him in the same category as my ex. I have to look at his actions and how he's being with me, and but I mean, yeah, I have tested him probably to the limits with you know, my traumas
and triggers. But then I have to go back and go, I'm sorry that was my stuff and I feel really bad, and you know, my therapist is even like, you know, he's he's shown that like he's not going anywhere, but at the same time, you know, you got to you can't keep doing this pattern. So it's like, yeah, I think it's just he said to me the other day we went on a run and he looked at me and he goes, one day, you're going to know that you can, you know, trust me and that I'm not
going to hurt you. He's like, because I promise you. He's like I He's like, you know, he's said all this sweet stuff and it was beautiful to hear and it was so sweet, but he was just like he kind of just like you know, hugged me and was just like, I will not hurt you. And it's just like I just started crying because it's like he's in it. Just I just feel like very understood in that in those moments when he does that for me, right, because he understands the pain. It's so hard to believe. But
I'm like, okay, like today you're right tomorrow. I hope so too. He's like, if you don't believe me today, believe me tomorrow. If you don't believe in tomorrow, believe me the next day. If you don't believe me in the next day, believe me the next day.
And all we can do is show you good, you know, yeah, saying it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, and all you can do is show you, and he's showing you, Yeah, let them.
And I have to realize that there's people that you know are not like my ex, Yeah, for sure, and that I deserve it. And that's my therapist, like, you deserve to be happy. I'm like, okay, and you deserve to be treated it. I'm like, but do I I.
Know, Catherine, Are we at all concerned about going so wide with this three months after meeting? I'm not, But I feel like that's a lot of pressure at a relationship to be honest weekly and people and all these other things.
I do too.
But I think it doesn't matter. I think if she does it next year or five years from now or last week or whatever, everyone's going to have something negative to say.
It's not moving too fast.
I don't think it's moving. It's not like they're just dating. Right, What is moving too, asked when you got divorced at April?
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean reover, right.
But I mean my point is, why is there a certain timeline? Why is there a certain and they're just dating. They're not married, they're not engaged yet, right.
I guess.
I guess the publicity puts pressure on it. I feel like it labels it as something maybe more than it is.
So I think the only the one thing that the publicity does for me is the if it doesn't work out, it's just another failed thing, and that puts on I'll feel disappointment. But at the same time, this is dating, right, Like just like with you know, the whole j thing Like this is, you know, I have to date to see who my person is and who I want us. And it's like, if if there's something that comes up, I'm not going to stay with him because US Weekly
wrote an article about us. I'm gonna stay with him because you know, I like him and I care about him, and you know we're together. I'm not going to stay with him because I'm like, oh, I don't want, you know, to be embarrassed.
Again or yeah. And I think that if you're the kind of person that doesn't share as much as you do, yeah, maybe keep it to yourself. But like you love to share stuff, you love, to show your life, you love, and I think that it's hard for you to not share him. So I think it's I think it's you do what feels good to you. You don't worry about what people say, and you just do you. I understand that if y'all were to not work out, that that's going to be hard, But you're dating and that's part
of dating. And people don't have to know why you broke up. If you do break up, you don't have to show you know, it's just it's just you have to be able to live your life. Us weekly is going to email me every day asking for something about it. You have to live your life.
And just does it freak him out because this isn't his world, So does it freak him out that his face is everywhere?
And all?
That's I think the only thing was like his daughter, Like I didn't like the fact they used a picture of his daughter just because that's you know, they didn't ask for that. But at the same time, he was just like, you know, I don't. He's like, I don't care about it. He's like, do you want me to delete Instagram? And I like no, Like, don't lee, You're intill, like you know of your Like, we're just living our lives. And I'm basically showing people that you can find happiness
after pain. And if that's the message, if that's all that this relationship is going to show, which I hope, I hope not. I mean, I who knows, I don't know. But at the same time, I want people to see that there is light after darkness, and you know, and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to share. And again, I don't know what tomorrow holds. I don't know what the next day. I don't know if and when we're going to break up. But I don't want to.
I just want to enjoy the moment that we're in and then go from there.
And you don't want to live life like that, Yeah, I don't. I don't think that that's a healthy place to be. Well, let me just hold on to this because of what's going to happen or what may happen or what like. I just don't feel like it's healthy for you. I think that that keeps you in this place of but what if he hurts me? But what if he cheats on me? And that doesn't allow you to live day to day? You're still living in this
future of what if he hurts me? What if I have to have an s weekly article about us breaking up? Like that doesn't allow you to just enjoy your life and live day by day.
Have you met each other's children?
Yes?
How'd that go?
Fantastic?
That's a big step.
Yeah, And it was one of those things where we because that's important too if we're dating and our kids don't get along or you know, how we parent kids. I mean that's going to be does that work for me? Does that work for us?
Like?
How does that look? And I think to go to that next level of a relationship too, I think that's something that you need to see. And you know, we kind of let them because they technically met the day at that birthday party, right because I met right because I met his daughter there. I was like, oh, Hi, it's my daughter, you know, so technically they had already met. So we just did it as like, hey, do you
want to have a play date today? Mommy's friend that you met at that thing's going to come over and so that's how we kind of organically, Uh did that works? Daughter five, so same age as Jolie, and yeah, and they just get along great and she's a sweetheart. So yeah. So I mean, but I mean, I'm sure there will be challenges along the way with that and co parenting
and the schedules. I mean, our holidays are completely flopped, so you know, there's there's times when I'm like, you know, I I don't it's hard for me to be here when I'm not with my kids, but we're here with your kids, so it's like I need, you know. So it's just like kind of an and vice versa. So it's just kind of figuring that out. And but he is someone He's the first person post divorce that I have wanted to be in a real relationship with.
And it all seems good. Honestly, it seems wonderful.
And he used to be a soccer player too, Mark, So I mean everything you asked for a non celebrity soccer player, you know, like a normal, normal guy.
I honestly, if you put your dream man down on paper, I think you'd be very similar to this guy, A lot of boxes checked here, I know.
Even your boxes, Mark, I mean she made sure.
I was like boxes, I know. So we'll see. So I'm not like, we're not putting pressure on it. We're not like we're just we're having fun. He you know, he's pushing me in areas that you know, I feel like I hold myself back and I just it feels really nice to laugh and just be happy again. So, however that is, it's I will say this, and if this does not work out, I've already survived one of the hardest things and one of the worst things I've ever and hopefully we'll ever have to go through that
any breakup. Moving on is not going to kill me, because if my divorce didn't kill me, this will not kill me.
So, and he's on the show next week. I think we got them booked. I think he's ready to go one week from today. Is that what we said?
Can we drill him on next week's episode?
That okay? Talk about moving fast already having them on the podcast, come on.
Right, all right, you're right, that's.
A little on. It could be fun. Oh lord, I have a lot of questions for him. Oh I'm sure, Lord, I don't know if you're ready for that. That seems a little fussed.
It's going to be a big.
So good Oh my god, you guys like you you you therapist bomb us on. I'm like, this is not Janet and Mike podcast anymore. Guy, We're not doing that. Oh lord, No, no, I'm not ever. I'm not ever going back to that. I'm not gonna overshare like that because it's not going to.
Be anything to talk about. It's just gonna be happy and good time.
Yeah, like your teeth and your teeth annoying me when you hit the fork. It's not like with something. Just feel better about themselves. And did I mention he you know he does my laundry and you know it's real sweet. Yeah, does he do it well?
Does he separate the lights from the darks?
And the other day I was like stressed out, but he was by the way it's like all the you know, the laundry, like, is it's done? I was like, oh my god, thank you?
What does he separate out the colors?
And because you don't, I don't ever, So I don't care, man. But yeah, anyways, he's a sweetheart. And so to the people out there that are having a hard time. Just know that there's there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and if you go to another tunnel and you see light, it's okay. If it goes to darkness again, you.
Can be happy and heal at the same time. I think that's important for people to realize you're that's.
Really good, that it's really important, because I feel like people are like, don't understand that, you know, so just remember you can be happy that still be healing well.
And that's what I told him too, Like I was like, you don't want to be with me and he's like, yes, I do. I was like, no, you don't. I was like, I got a lot of work still to do. And he goes, then I'll I'll help you along the way.
And I was like, okay, there's a light at the end of the tunnel and he is ripped.
Just keep your shirt.
Off there man, oh man, all right, well we have an amazing guest coming on.
Oh yeah, I forgot.
And you know, I'm with all of this, Like, like I said, I've got a lot of healing work to do. I'm still dealing with co parenting with my AX and it hasn't been easy, and you know, there are things that I still have, you know, things that are hurt, and it's hard and trying to balance the two has been very tough because, like I said, I still have a lot of healing work to do, and so that's where I fight a lot of That's where I fight, like pushing him away because I'm like, I can't do
this like that too much. And if well if my ex hates me and you're gonna hate me, and like, so just I'm just gonna be alone. So you know, so I just I know that I still have a lot of work to do, and it is it's very hard, but I do follow this amazing woman. She does the Beterrial Trauma Recovery Instagram and she does the videos for them, Jane, and so we're gonna have her on and you know, just walk through you know, the life of a narcissist and gaslighting and abuse.
I'm excited shot to her.
Here she comes.
Hey guys, it's been and Ashley from the Almost Famous podcast.
It's that time of year where drama fills the air.
The Bachelor is back with an all new season premiering January third.
There's a new host, Jesse Palmer.
And a brand new bachelor, Clayton.
Clayton is a Midwest boy, has that great smile, nice teeth, and he's really tall.
Ash let's call it what it is. He's a beefcake.
Okay.
Well, Clayton seems to be a good guy though, and he can't wait to find love, get married, and have kids. And he believes more than anything that his future wife is on this show.
It sounds like a fairy tale but also a bit of an emotional rollercoaster because Clayton tells three different women he's falling in love with him.
Technically, he told one, I couldn't be more sure that I'm falling in love with you, and another one I'm falling in love with you, and the third one, I am in love with you.
You don't miss a thing.
It's from years of over analyzing everything that guys say. But his heart is in the right place, sure, but.
Other parts of him not so much, as we find out when he admits to two different women that he was intimate with both of them.
Yeah, I don't think it's gonna go over well, we'll.
Be breaking down it all. The famous podcast.
Ben is married now, well, she's a mom well, change your opinions of what we think is acceptable single behavior.
Good question.
Listen to Almost Famous on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
All right, so we're going to bring in Jane. She is, she's incredible. She's a part of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast and then she also does the the Instagram. I don't know, do you watch the middle cap? You need to. There's it's they're so it's so good. So let's bring Jane in right now. Hi, Hi, you know what, well, I watch you every day. That probably sounds really creepy, Like no, it sounds really creepy, but also like, doesn't she look like her therapist?
Yes, that's crazy.
Yeah, you look so much like art. We we have a we don't go together. We don't do a couple of therapy, but I mean sometimes best friends in need couple of therapy, but we don't. But you look so much like my therapist that there's some sort of like, I mean, obviously I go to you know, your podcast in your Instagram to you know, just get all the knowledge and then to also not feel crazy, but you just you look so much like her that. I'm like, oh yeah, there's just like a peaceful I'm like.
Very like, oh, I'm glad. I'm glad that we can.
And her sweet voices. Sweet I know.
So I I, are you allowed to share some of like your past at all or no? Like why like how you got into speaking out and doing what you do?
Yeah? Yeah, okay give it to us girl, yeah anonymously. So yeah, I was. I was married for thirteen years and it was you know, a lot a lot of women who listen to our podcast and find us on social media have similar stories. So I was married, There was there was infidelity, there was pornography, There was a lot of that just betrayal, and I thought it was sex addiction. So I did. I went the sex addiction route that a lot of us go on. You know.
We went to c SATs, which are certified sexual Addiction therapist, and that model does the opposite of the BTR model. We follow the trauma model, which is this is abuse. So if this is happening to you, you are a trauma victim, and there's a perpetrator and a victim in that model versus the sex addiction model, which says, you know,
you need couples therapy, there's communication issues. He is, you know, the perpetrator, the one who is cheating or the one who is lying, or as doctor Omarmon Wallach calls it, has a secret sexual basement. This person is a victim, and so they need to almost like they're sick. And so it's like it's almost like your husband is a cancer victim, and it's your job to make life comfortable for him and to coddle him, to give him more sex and to be more attractive so that he's not
tempted to deviate. And this can see, this can be very difficult for women in faith communities. You know, we have a lot of women in the BTR community who are you know, either extremely indoctrinated into their religious beliefs or their married to pastors or other forms of clergy. That's like a terrible hole to dig yourself out of.
So in my in my experience eventually going down this rabbit hole of sex addiction, trying so hard to make myself exactly what I thought I needed to be, I I eventually started to identify emotional abuse patterns of emotional abuse. And the more I tried to explain that to our therapists. The more crazy I felt, the more gas my therapist began gaslighting me, telling me that I was, you know, finding fault, that I was not meeting my husband's needs.
And that's when I started googling my symptoms, you know, And I think that that's a huge indicator. When you start googling your symptoms, googling what other people are doing in your relationship, that's a big sign that something is really wrong. And that's when I started to find BTR and I was like, oh my gosh, what the heck is betrayal trauma? I'd never heard that phrase before in my life. And I started listening to the podcast. I actually don't do the podcast and does.
She's a sepoet and was also on wind Down a few weeks ago and choose amazing. So if you haven't heard that episode, definitely go back to listen to that one.
Yeah, and using you know, using the BTR podcast as well as other resources. I'm an avid reader, and I started reading other books that were super helpful. They're on our website as well, BTR dot org slash books. We curate these books and make sure that there's nothing in because I mean, there's so many books out there about betrayal, trauma, infidelity, the you know, domestic abuse, covert abuse, and there's a
lot of victim blaming language in these books. You'll read them, you'll get a couple chapters in you're like, oh, my gosh, this explains my story, and then all of a sudden, like and you're codependent, and you're like, I just want something that will help me. But so we read these books, we make sure that there's nothing in there that's going to hurt you, and then we put it on our list.
So anyway, I started reading and learn working with BTR coaches and finally figuring out that there wasn't just not just to downplay it, but there wasn't just sex, you know, sexual deviation and sexual acting out in my marriage. There was also emotional abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, and coercion, and there was even physical abuse that I had not been able to see when I was in the marriage.
And so for me, in my life, one of the most difficult things I've ever had to do was look at in the eyes and be like, I am a victim of domestic abuse. I mean the shame that you feel when you recognize that the fear of knowing I'm gonna have to do something about this. You know, I have children as well that I share with my ex husband, so you know, navigating that, realizing I'm gonna have to face the family court system, it was overwhelming, but I
was able to use BTR resources. I was able to use We really love Tina Swyn from One Mom's Battle. She's also on Instagram. Using those resources, there were a lot of other I don't just powerful moments for myself of just regaining my sense of self that helped me to kind of get through to the other end. And
then I've always been just by I'm a writer. I've been writing for a while just for different organizations, and so I kind of like made my way into BTR by continuously commenting on their different articles, just different things I thought that they should tweak or make better. And eventually and reached out to me and said, look, you just want to write for us. You keep telling us we should do things better. And I was like, ah, sure, So that's kind of how I how I started with BTR.
That's awesome. And how are you now like with your do you still kind of go because I feel like and which is why I reached out to you because I was sending her some screenshots of me and my accent. I was like, I feel crazy, like and I'm like and I'm like, does this Like I'm like, I'm struggling, and I'm just like I need to like reach out to someone because I'm like, I, this is so hard and it's and I go back and like this like
it's this, it's this awful cycle, you know. But I also realized that I one of my issues but and almost because I have to, because the co parenting is like I engage and that's like my biggest issue is that, like I have to stop engaging.
It's so difficult. I think that. And that's the nature of this kind of really covert abuse is that it makes you question reality all the time. You know, you're always wondering, am I actually crazy? Am I the crazy one? Am I starting this? Am I the abuser? And I just want to say, you know, the fact that you're questioning that, the fact that you care about that, indicates that it's not you. Abusers don't care about how their behavior affects other people, only to the extent of how
that's going to affect their image. So they might be like, oh my gosh, I freaked out. You know, they might drop their guard for a second and have a complete freak out yell at everybody, you know, and then they're like they will self reflect like, oh my gosh, I just showed them that I'm a psycho. Now this person's going to think I'm crazy. This it might affect my income in some way, you know, something like that, but not I hurt my family, I hurt my ex wife,
I hurt her heart by scaring her. They don't do that, but we do, you know, we care about how it hurts other peoples feeling. So just keep going back to that, keep going back to intent. You might do things that are not in your character. You might do things that are not who you are, and you might go back and be like, oh my gosh, it's me. I'm crazy. It's not though, it's not. You're reacting irrationally, abnormally to an abnormal situation, which is healthy. That's correct.
You know what's so interesting about what you just said too, because I'm like, you know, at one point he was like, well, I've I've that. One day I came over and was empathetic, and I'm like that was the morning after we had that big incident in the house which I can't share, but like where he kind of went crazy, And that was that afternoon where he was like, I'm sorry, it's like because they want to be worried about his image.
His image.
Yeah, yeah, And I was like, oh my gosh, like that just like totally clicked when you said that.
He said that one morning, I was.
I mean, I know there's that too. What how do you deal though with, you know, co parenting with someone that has well that because it's narcissistic and has her and has no empathy.
That's it's really hard to navigate. I think that. I mean, there's a few key things. So number one, you're gonna want to remember that it's important that you operate remembering the legal system does not favor victims, so unfortunately you kind of have to play their game. And so it would be ideal, it would be amazing if you just never had to see them again, drop off, pick up, not speak to them, but you are going to have
to communicate with them. So one of the things that we advocate at BTR is that you just have one mode of communication. So there's a lot of apps that help you with this. Things like talking parents are a family wizard. I think Wyneth Paltrow made one called fair fa y r. And these apps are cool because the communication you have with you with your ex is quote admissible, and so everything that you communicate between yourself and your
ex can be used in court. So you want to make sure that as you're talking to your ex through these that you're not doing anything that you wouldn't want to judge to read. And the cool thing about that is that you can really kind of you can take a pause, you can take a minute and think, and you can be like, all right, I want to be
strategic about this. I want to make sure that what I'm writing here reflects not my traumatized, overwhelmed really trigger itself, because he might say something like I want to buy Mary, our daughter, a purple backpack, and to a judge, this makes him look like a great dad. But you have some kind of backstory where there's something really triggering about purple backpacks, you know, and he knows that, and he
knows it's going to send you in a spiral. But instead of being like you sichoh, I hate you so much, why would you bring up a purple backpack. I hate you. You're breaking my heart. You know, instead of doing that, you can be like wonderful, thanks Todd, you're the best
and send it. And then you call your best friend and you freak out and you don't can get the same outfit before days and you deal with your trauma, right, But you have shown the court system and your ex that he doesn't have the same kind of power over you he once had. And because the court system is looking, you know, in the event that you end up going back to court, which which unfortunately does happen quite a bit in these situations, because they're constantly they like it,
you know, they like the conflict. In the event that that happens, the courts are looking for two high conflict individuals. They want the back that they don't want it. But they're expecting this back and forth to really immature people. They just hate each other, and that's what they're expecting. Your job is to show I'm not part of this dynamic. He's a psycho. I'm not part of this dynamic. And you don't show them that by constantly trying to expose him.
You just show it by being yourself, by being your authentic, warm, stable self. Given me enough rope, he's going to hang himself, and you can really show that through your communication with him.
You know what I think I was. We're just like not good right now, and it's frustrating because you know, my friends have seen me try to have a good co parenting situation, and I think words that have been spoken. I'm like, as much as I dislike you on many levels, I'm like, I would never say that to my to anybody, and it's like it's like the I'm like, the words that you're saying right now are so incredibly hurtful that I'm like, I don't understand. And but then I you know,
I cry to my friends. I'm a therapist, and I'm like I don't and then they're like, why do you care if someone has been so narcissistic and you know, cheating,
It's like, why do you care? And I'm like I do, and like, I don't know if it's it's if it's the abuse piece or if I'm like, but every time I mentioned abuse, like he's like he laughs at me about it, and then that makes me then feel even more crazy because I'm like, but it was like, whether it was all the above, like it was still form of and then he's like, well, you know you said things to me too where you did this, and so then I'm like, okay, well maybe then I did deserve
that because of X, Y and Z. So then it's just like this constant like and then I'm like, well, and then I want, like the abuser to like me, and I'm like, why why am I trying to get his approval and his He's never liked me, he's never cared about me. He orady wouldn't have done X, Y and Z. So I'm like and I'm like, I don't I don't have the answer, Like I feel like I'm I'm just stuck in that area, like why do I
care or want his approval? Maybe because I never got it or maybe because I'm like hello, I plague like please, like I'm deserving of it, Like why have you never loved me the way that?
Like?
So I don't know, like do you have any insight? Because I literally yeah, therapists are like hands up, well, well, a.
Lot of what you're asking has to do with how he thinks, and it's really important. Patricia Evans talks about this in her book The verbally abusive relationship. Understand that you are operating in one reality. He's operating in a completely different reality. In your reality. When you've harmed somebody, you want to know. For example, if you harm your best friend and she's like, hey, look you hurt me, you want to be like, Hey, what did I do? Tell me how it felt, tell me what happened, because
you want to fully apologize for that. You want to clear all that out, and then I guarantee you a week from then. You're like, hey, are you feeling still hurt? Can you talk to me about it so much? She'd be like, oh my gosh, Janna, drop it. It's fine. You'd be like okay, and then you know two muths on the raadi and be like, okay, but are you do you really forgive me? Because you care? Because that's how that's the reality that healthy, normal people live in. Okay,
you because you live in that reality. Because we are in this reality, we can study and we can learn and we can get PhDs on how these how abusive people think? We cannot think that way though, our brains cannot go there, and so your brain is trying so hard to wrap itself around the fact that he just doesn't care. But you can't. You can't understand it. And so to you, it's like, look, if I done what you did, I would want to apologize. I would want to give you closure. I would want to you know,
shake hands and walk away. I mean, you birthed his children. You guys were together for a long time.
Well, and he has like and he said, like, I've apologized a million times. I'm done apologizing. But I was like, but you haven't apologized, and you haven't owned the ward that you were abusive. And that's the piece that I missing. I need to I need to hear you say not because of X, Y and Z, or like I just need you to say I'm sorry that I was abusive, whether mentally all you know, just of it, just like
I just need you to for some reason. It's like because now that I have done the research, I'm like, wow, that was mentally abusive, that was emotionally or that was financially abusive or you know, and it's like he just will not take ownership of that. And it's like I have a hard time. I just have a heard because then I just feel like crazy for wanting that. I guess and.
It's not enough that everybody else affirms it and tells you and books and therapists and everyone else. You want it from the perpetrator because that's what normal people do, that's what healthy people do. And I think that you know, it's going to take some acceptance just to realize you're never going to get it from him. He will never validate that, he will never give you that kind of closure. That kind of closure is going to have to come
from you accepting reality for what it is. And when you've been gas lit for so long and betrayed for I mean betrayal, it selptic is a huge toll because your whole reality changes. You thought things were one way when there was a completely different reality happening behind the scenes that changed, you know.
And it was you.
Then they they blame you for that. Well, if you didn't do this, or if you didn't like he was always like, well if you were you know, if you didn't say this, like I would have been nicer to you.
And I'm like, what, like, it's just like and then I'm like, oh, then I stay because I'm like, Okay, you're right, that was my fault, you know, or it's so it's hard for you because you know you have things blocked and you can't see certain things, or you know, it's I don't want you going out at three am to a bar or whatever like that's yeah, you're right, that's my fault. I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, that's gaslighting. I mean, gaslighting has tremendous, horrible consequences on our brains over time. It's going to take you time to heal from that. Just surrounding yourself with people who just constantly are affirming to you that your reality is real, that you see things how they are,
that you can trust your intuition. I think as that happens, it's going to be easier for you to let go of the fact that he is denying this, that he won't admit to it, and it's just gonna be enough for you to say I know, and your friends say like, I know, we know that you know. You know, And eventually, some day, as your children get older, eventually if you want this to be part of their story, they'll say,
we know that you know. And you'll have this group of support, of a support system that believes your story, and you won't need him to admit it. He was there he knows. He knows. Okay, they know what they're doing. He will never give you the kind of closure that you need. But you don't need it from him because it's inside of you. You just can't feel it yet because he programmed you not to.
Do you think that the person that he's portraying or the you know after that, Like, do you think people like that stay the same or do you think they can change? So like the perception of who they are today, because you know, he's out of a shame now, and you know, he always says like that, I'm wanting to keep him in a shame like I'm not. I do That's the thing, Like, I don't want you in your shame. I just want the apology that I know that I deserve, you know I.
Okay, yeah, And there's so much to that. I believe. I believe in shame. I believe that when people do shameful things, they should feel ashamed. I feel shame when I do shameful things, and it's good because it helps me to realize I'm not operating on a healthy level. And I believe the word shame is weaponized by abusive men all the time to try to shift responsibility and accountability onto their partners. I hear it happen all the time.
Your desire for him to affirm the level of hurt that he has caused you and your family is not keeping him in his shame. It's simply you expressing the pain that you're in and for him to be like, oh, I want you to stop this now so that I don't feel bad for what I've done to you. That in itself sounds very much to me like emotional abuse. So so there's that.
I have a little, a little, a little asterisk to that, but I doesn't he he has a point, though, like to affirm his side. We are divorced, I should move on. So when he says move on, we're divorce, get over it, mm hmm, Like he has a point. We are I need to move on, I need to get over it.
I okay, I'm I'm You're going No, you don't need to move on and get over anything. You deserve. I'm gonna change that, and I hope you can change that thought in your mind too. You deserve to be loved and to heal, rather than I need to move on, I need to get over it. That's him speaking. I hear women say things where I'm like, that's your abuse are talking, not you, that's his voice in your head,
not you. Rather, you deserve validation and healing. And it's gonna come saying you need to get over such a traumatic event. It's literally like saying to somebody who is hit by a car who's still asking the person who hit their car and is saying, look, I need an apology. You you know they were let's change this analogy. They were driving the car on purpose. They hit a tree with the car fully knowing that there was a passenger in the car. Okay, and then you know, you get divorced,
you move on. Years later, you're like, hey, when you rammed our car into that tree, it scared me, It hurt me. It it made me have a really hard time getting in cars with men. Okay, I would like an apology. He says, get over it. It was years ago. We're divorced now. Yeah, so you can see a couple issues there. He was a psycho to drive that into a tree. Maybe don't talk to him because he's crazy, right, but it makes sense that you want that apology from him.
He should be giving you. He should be doing a lot of things to make restitution for what he did to you. He's not doing them. It makes sense that your brain is like, I want more than what I'm getting, right, But what would you say to that passenger. You wouldn't say get over it. You would say, oh my gosh, what can I do for you? What do you need
to heal? So I want you to treat yourself with that same kind of compassion, because you have been through serious trauma and he's treating it like a splinter when this is this is an emergency room visit. This is an icy U S day, not a splinter with a little band aid, right, Yeah.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's just when you hear those things, I'm like, oh, like all the seven years of the gaslighting and the manipulation and making me feel crazy, it just is still here today, and it's just like I it's just it's taken a lot more time than I but it's also I've discovered so many more things too about what it really was, and like oh wow, like I wasn't crazy, but there's still times where I still believe that, like I am crazy
because of all the things that were said to me, you know, like the proof right in front of I mean, Catherine would sit in there when I would be like, tell me your secret email account. I don't have one.
I me and Katherine just read through all of it, you know, and it's like just it's like even those memories come and I'm like, oh, but maybe he really didn't have one, but like we had the roof right there, you know, like and it's like this is have my friend's witness too, just to be like this slapping me. It's like hello, you know, like wake up.
And I think too, I think we understand why you care. You know, if we ever say the words why do you care, I think we all understand why you care and why you need to be validated and why you need that apology. I think it's more what she said earlier that we know you're never going to get it. He is never going to validate that for you. So it's us praying for you to get to a place where you can do that to yourself, where you can give yourself the closure, not him, because we all can
see it because we haven't been abused by him. You know, you still can't.
Fully I mean, you see it, but you have though he lied to you true, just as much as he lied to everybody listening to the podcast, just as much as he lied to you know people on Mondays.
He did not retrain my brain.
He didn't believe didn't believe him.
No, not really, if I'm being honest, No, not really. I mean sure there were times and little things that I wanted to believe that, But our brain was not abused like yours. You know, we were not treated that fully. So we can see that you aren't going to get what you want. You still want it. I see it in the text between y'all. Now you still want it, you still expect it, you still have this hope for it that you're not.
Going I don't want to be hate. You know what my thing is. I'm like, yes, I want people to like me. That's it's a bad quality to have. I want everyone to like me, and I want one hundred percent of proven rights normal, which I know i'll never get. But like the person that has hurt me the worst, I don't know how he could hate me. That's the part that baffles me. That's the part that hurts so bad. I'm like, how can you hate me when you destroyed everything?
But yeah, you blame me. He oh, I don't think he loves me.
Yeah, I don't think he hates you. He hates himself, but he can't admit that. I do not, for I do not believe that he actually hates you and fully blames you. I don't believe it. I think he knows, but he's never going to admit it. That's my opinion.
But I mean, I don't know, but in my my brain knows it triggers you well, yeah, and it just baffles me. I just don't understand how someone can hate I, Like, I gave a million chances. I tried as hard as I could, and it was like, but yet I was I was controlling and I was this, and it's like, well,
yeah I did. I was controlling at times for sure, because I was feking, terrified that like you were gonna cheat again, and five million times later you did again, you know, Like, but I'm like, how do you?
How do you?
How does that person hate me? Like that's the part that just doesn't make sense to me.
And it doesn't and it won't make sense because you're in You're in reality one and he's in reality too. It cannot make sense. And it's almost at some point you're going to be grateful for this because you're going to realize you're healthy and he's not healthy.
But maybe but he's he seems so healthy right now. That's the thing, Like he seems so like Yeah, I mean he's too you know, he's he's going to mend's like all these things, and I'm just like, man like, okay.
But even you's communication with each other's divorced people is not healthy. Yeah know, it's going to them so and I want to point that out. You saying that he seems healthy to me couldn't be further from the truth.
But maybe it's because he hates me that much. I'm like, maybe he'd like truly just and then I get so upset.
I think that if he's healthy and he hated you that much, he could still be respectful.
I mean I do, is what I'm saying. Well, I mean, I do call him a narcissist, but that's not very nice.
But truth, Jane's like, they will always hate, they will they will always hate people or or you know, honestly, like I'm not jury's out on what kinds of emotions, these kinds of people actually feel hatred to you.
Means something different to him. Love to you mean something completely different to him, to this kind. To an abusive person, love is what can I get from you? What? What do you give to me to boost my image? You know, to make me more financially comfortable? You know, how can I use you? That's love? So then what would hate me? You're not giving me anything anymore. You're not giving me what you used to give me. I have no use for you. You're hurting my image. So, yeah, he hates you.
You're hurting his image by telling the truth. You're being a whistleblower. You're telling you're bringing awareness to narcissistic abuse. Yeah, he hates you. Okay, you're telling that good. You know you're doing a noble good thing here. And you know, I mean what you're asking. Every every single ex wife or ex partner of an abuser asked tod, why did he hate you in the first place? Because abuse is not love. Abuse is hatred, abuse and betrayal. Why would
he have done any of those things? You know, and you can some therapists, you know, sexual addiction therapists will be like, oh, unfulfilled needs, blah blah blah. It was abuse and abuse comes down to power and control. That did not change once you got divorced. It's still about power and control. He was trying to exert power and control when you were married, and now that you're divorced,
same thing as his access to you. So through texting or emails or however you're communicating, he's going to continue to try to be the center of your universe. And he's going to continue to try to control you through that. Control your emotions, control your time, you know, control your health if you're not keeping very well. He knows, and he likes it. He likes knowing how much he's affecting
your life. He enjoys it. Okay, and I can tell you that just because they're all the same, you know, they all kind of operate the same way.
What's your advice then, for someone dealing with someone who's got guess you know, a gas slider narcissist. Is it just no communication or is it just I mean, like ken you said, like okay, thank you?
In yeah, I mean you can't you can't go no contact completely. If you share children, I would say limit your contact to logistics, use something, use a parenting app like Talking Parents or whatever. So you just have one route of communication and then just talk to them about logistics. One are you picking up the kids? You know, if one of the kids is sick, Yeah, she had a fever. She's doing okay though, so and so it's getting braces on this day. Let's you know, John has a birthday
on Friday. You can have him in the morning. I'll have him in the afternoon. Just keep it limited to things like that, only parenting, only logistical issues. He's not the person to process your trauma with. He will not validate it. And if he tries to bring you down that wormhole, you just need to have some because you know, I can tell you this, the moment that you change your energy towards him, the moment that you stop trying to squeeze water out of that rock, he's gonna come
after you. He's I get you know. He probably listens to your podcast and he probably hates me right now and he's so he might he might wait a little while to do this, but I guarantee at some point he's going to say something like I miss you, I don't know why you know I I or I wish I would like some closure on this. Can we meet and can we talk about it? He eventually, if you stop giving him the supply, the attention that he's used to, and with narcissism we call the supply, he will try
to get it back from you. And but you're not going to give it because you're you're going to fill your life up with these other supportive people and you're gonna be able to say, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in going down that road. I only want to communicate with you about our children. We can be the best co parents we can be. And then you're just going
to leave it there. Yeah, and then and then he's going to go off, And unfortunately there will be other you know, other people will have to deal with this abusive person. But but you are going to fill your life with safe people and just move forward.
And I will say it's my fault. I mean, he's you know, I'm the one that keeps being like, hey, you know, I really need closure from the and it's like I just need to know I won't get it, so I just need to stop because I mean, in his defense, like, yeah, I you know, he thinks I'm wanting to bring up a shame.
I'm not.
But I can see like how he may think that that's what I'm trying to do. I just would like to get that full of closure and you know that, Yeah, I will say, like, that's definitely my fault that I'm the one that like keeps wanting to like have those conversations and I'm the one drugg you know, a drug, judging up the past, you know.
So don't blame yourself. Don't blame yourself. Keep keep that analogy. It seemed like that clicked. You have been in serious traumatic situations with this guy. Okay, don't please, don't. I hear him in your head. I hear him like, I feel like you have been through so much and you're expecting a lot out of yourself that is more than you should be expecting. Of Course you want closure, of
course you want these things. I think that working with your therapist whatever, you know, you know what you need. But I just think a huge dose of compassion at beach here. That's like one of our biggest platforms is that self care is really just a ton of compassion for yourself. The things that you're doing that you're like, oh, it's my fault, this doesn't make sense. It makes sense.
You are a victim of abuse, you know, and when you look at other abusive women or you think about other abusive women, I know that we're all like, oh my gosh, that poor woman. I can't believe she went through that. That's you, so see yourself that way, you know.
Yeah, And I'm something's interesting that came up there day because Hughes always say that I and I will admit to this too. I had always had a really hard time apologizing, but when I did apologize, I would really mean it, you know, like if there was something you know, that I did that upset him. But I feel like because I have, you know, I'm now in a new relationship, but I feel like because of my past, I'm constantly having to be like, I'm sorry, that's my past triggers,
and that's like this just came up for me. It has nothing to do with you, and you've been amazing, but like this is like what what I feel, and I'm sorry, and it's like I just I've realized how much baggage I have in my new relationship that it's actually like this apart makes sad, Like I feel it's like it's so unfair to like him, you know, because I'm like, that's not fair, like that, like my like my is now like all over his side, you know.
Yeah.
Yeah, Choosing like a partner post trauma is a really interesting thing because you're gonna need to, you know, find someone or let someone find you who is extremely compassionate. It's a gift to be with a trauma victim. Trauma victims are some of the most compassionate, loving, sensitive, affectionate people on the planet. And why because we know what it's like to be so desperately lonely in a relationship.
We have a ton of love to give. We are we're honest to a fault because we've been accused of being liars. You know, We're so self reflective, and so we require incredible partners. So make sure that whoever you decide to be with understands, you know, rather than being like, oh my gosh, I'm so grateful that anybody wants to be with me because I'm so pathetic. You know what, andership, if the mindset to understanding being with you is a
huge privilege. And I hope all trauma victims who are hearing this understand that we have gone through the ringer and we have come out wounded, yes, but as incredible partners. And so anybody who's with us does have to be, you know, very trauma sensitive, very understanding, and very willing to work through difficult moments with us. But it's very rewarding to be the partner of a trauma victim. So
he's very lucky to be with you. It is going to be a hard time, a hard period of time to work through, but you know, there are books he can read, he can get a therapist, he can listen to podcasts, he can be there for you through this, and that's that is what is going to be required for the relationship to work.
Jane, thank you so much for just coming on. And I appreciate you, and I'm sorry that I you know, DMD you the other day being like I don't.
Say sorry, no, no, no no. We get messages a lot like that, and I just and I feel like I just wish I could tell everybody, every single person who messages us, who comes through with that you're not crazy. You're not crazy, You're not nobody. We're not crazy.
Jane, can where can everybody find the Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It's on Instagram.
We're on Instagram. We're on TikTok. Our handle on TikTok is BTR dot org. You can find us on Apple podcasts just the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, and then our website is BTR dot org.
Jane, you're the best. Thank you and I will be dming you again very soon.
Thank you so much. Right bye, bye girl bye.
I love her, adore her.
I know, I watch her all the time. I just love her videos.
I feel like she's a good one for you. Yeah, Like I feel like you like really kind of heard her.
Yeah, I love but I every day I like listen to her go on her Instagram and I'm like, yes, yes, And then I like, I don't know, but it's okay.
We're giving, we're having compassion for that.
Oh yeah, she's really great. But well hopefully that helps a lot of people, you know. I it's so hard, like because I'm kind of in that spot where you know, I want to be happy, but then there's also things that like going through. But it's it's been really nice because so many people, I think, are you know some of the stuff that I've been putting out there about narcissist or gas you know, gaslighting phrases, and people are like, oh my god, I never realized that. Now I'm they're like,
thank you for you know, talking about it. So at least I feel like I'm like, okay.
You're definitely helping people for sure, which.
Makes me feel better.
I don't think people really fully understand gaslighting and what is considered all forms of abuse and narcissism, you know, so it's helpful.
You know.
One of the things too, one of the gaslighting phrases. I was like, oh shoot, I used to say that. I'd be like, I'm sorry you feel that way. Mm hmm. That's actually technically gaslighting. I could say that you're supposed to say like I'm sorry, because it's not.
Really taking ownership of what you did. It's saying how you yeah perceived the situation.
I wrote it down or actually saut the other day because I was like, oh crap, it's more about.
What I was gonna say. He used to say that. I remember that vividly.
That's where I thought.
I think I got it from I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry you feel that way.
No, it should be i'm sorry that you're feeling this way. I have to look at it.
It was it was I'm sorry for what I do.
I know you say I'm then also it's like I admit that that is hurtful, and what I loved in it too is the correction, like, how what can I do so that it doesn't affect you that way? You know? Is there anything that I can do to help when I love that? Right? Like asking someone like because you don't sometimes like you don't mean to hurt the person, sure, Like I wouldn't know that if I, Oh my god, Cather, I have no idea that I hurt you that I'm so sorry? What can I do Instead of saying I'm sorry?
I feel like, what can I do so that that doesn't happen?
Right?
Yeah? I know for sure?
Is there anything that I need to say sorry for? I'm sorry? I feel that way? All right, guys, talk to you next week.