The Secret to Staying Married

the first two. Here's the o G. Yeah, you know, and my parents have been here, my grandfather, um, you know, this past week and we even asked them, We're like, hey, do you guys know Phil Donahue, And everyone kind of lit up. It was like, yeah, I used to watch

the heck out of that show. I always used to watch it and this and that, and so, I mean everybody knows Phil Donahue and his wife Marlo Thomas, who was actually she was a guest on his show, and that's kind of when everyone saw them, follow them in love because everyone knew that they saw the spark. Um. So she's an actress. Um, she's she was on a show. Actually, I was walking today with one of my girlfriends and

she was on a show called That Girl. UM. And they've been married for over forty years and they have a book out UM on our same imprint with HarperCollins and the books called What Makes a Marriage Last? Because they've been married over forty years. And what they did is they, UM, they took forty couples couples, UM, and they basically interviewed them because they're great at that. They're great interviewing obviously Phil and then you know, UM saying

with Marlowe. But they interviewed these couples and it was so cool because you know, we have a crash course in their book and we got to read it. UM read a lot of it because we just got it the other day, and just to kind of hear the stories of some people that you know, I really look up to, like Viola Davis and her husband, and you know, UM, Kelly Rippa, Mark Nsuelo's, Jamie Lee Curtis and her husband,

and all the couples. They kind of have a requirement for all the couples that they've been married UM a certain amount of years or have been like they have Elton John and David Furnish, who have been in a domestic partnership for over fifteen years, married for the last four to six years because of locality reasons, but they have this kind of prerequisite for these couples, you know, and especially I think all of us at one point have been like, man, how does you know these people

who are of such celebrity status stay in like it's always a genuine surprise when they see that, or even I think so when you see a celebrity couple that have been married for so long, Oh, for sure, you're like, oh, how did they do it? You know, like you think about your yourself. You're like, man, it's hard, and how does someone like that do it? Yeah? For example, like Michael J. Fox and Tracy you look at them and you're like, man, how long? How do they make it work?

What was there? What was the secret? And I know, Mike, I know you always have your headphones on when we travel, but whenever I do see, you know, a sweet old couple, or when I'm on the plane traveling by myself, I'm always like, how long have you been married? And then I'll always say like, Okay, what's your secret? And whenever I play shows, I usually sing love and then I celebrate whoever has had the longest marriage. And so you know, some of these people are thirty forty years and I'm

always like, what's your secret? And I haven't forget this one guy, he's like over medication, over medicating and I was like no, um. And one of them was just like the wife was like we're best friends. Yeah he's like he's like yeah, okay. But that's the cool thing about this book though, because I mean, they get these people to these celebrity couples to really open up and share things that they've been through, what has helped it

work for them? And it's just what's great about it is, you know a lot of things said Jan and I have shared. You know, you guys have commented and responded saying because of what we share, you don't feel so alone. And this book like epitomizes that where it's like, man, if all these couples that a lot of us look up to, you know, and hold with such high regard, and they go through what they go through and all of their marriages, they all look different. Not one of

them is the same. Now you know, some of them have similar beliefs, but some I'm gonna have polar opposite beliefs. And certain things like you know, the the classic debate of going to bed angry versus not going to bed angry, and I mean, it's it's amazing. Yeah. One of the things in UM Ray Romano and his wife um and A story is Ray says it's good to have the same outlook, the same values. UM. But then it's also, and he goes, I'm just speaking for ourselves, it's also

that we're compatible. She's that person. I'm this person. I'm this person who performs and needs attention. She's that person who doesn't feel neglected by this person. So I mean, especially in this business, the pieces have to fit that way. And I think about it's just like, you know, who's your person? Have you found your person? Are you with

your person? You know, as a person, because like with the race story, he's like, I need attention and I need someone, I need laughs, and I need someone to just be that supportive stay at home mom, you know, and and and rock and I need to like feel like I'm you know, a funny, funny person. And it's and she's that person for him. So it's like, what is it like? So I'll ask you, like, what makes you that person? Or me be that person? Or maybe

I'm not you are you are my person? And I think that's something that you find over time, because maybe some people who are newly together, newly married might give a fluffy answer, but I think you start to realize when you go through the day to day, the monotony and the grinding of marriage and having a family, the little things of of how you balance each other out and how much you know you and I've commented how much we balanced each other out in the day to

day stuff, you know, with certain things. And it's because of that that that even that simple stuff reassures me. I'm like, this is my person. I was like, because if I had somebody like me, it wouldn't be nearly as passionate, nearly as magical, and I wouldn't be a better person, you know what I mean. And kind of to that topic, there's something on John mcenroon and Patty

Smith's story. You know, it even starts off the chapter where there's a quote it says women are notorious for saying, oh, he's got the potential, but potential is not good enough, marry the person. Don't marry potential. And you know, I want to ask Phil and Marlow about that question too, but it gets your thinking. It's like in Ray Romano's case and his wife, Um, you know how many of us out there are marrying based on potential? You know,

our people accepting? Can people accept who's in front of them? Yeah?

People will grow, but you can't ask for this drastic change. Yes, I I do fear though that, And I know that I've been um where I've almost thought I could change the person, you know, And I think because I think we as women, and I'm not saying to categorize just us, but I feel like I think a lot of women can be like, oh I can change that, or like no, like I'll be the one he doesn't do this with, or I'll be the one like to change that, and when it kind of hits you in the face, it's like, no, no,

you won't. And you might help them grow and be a better person, kind of like you're doing for me, So that could be for sure the case. But to just straight up change, like if they're gonna stop smoking marijuana because they know I hate marijuana. It's like, well, I mean to to that point. I mean, I think men even look at women in that regard where we

kind of put that power in you as well. Where I always told myself back when I was single, it's like, when I get married, I won't you know, mess around anymore. It's like, because the woman will change me. It'll be because of that interesting, you know what I mean, Like I put such high you know, expectations on that as well, even though as you and I found out, has nothing to do with you in my situation at least, So it's just interesting, if you know, I think it's important.

I think that's an important thing to kind of touch on. And I can't wait again to talk to Phil and Marlow about it. Um on those kind of expectations, but you want to take a break and get them one, Okay, So we are waiting on Marlow and Phil. Are there any ones that any relationships from the Brian Cranson um and his wife or there's member Deepak and Chopra they're in there as well. Um another great couple that Um Lily, there's Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner Sully that Captain Chip

and Joanna Ted Danson Mary. I always wondered how their relationship because there's just Billy, Janice, Crystal Jay and Simon Smith, Kevin Bacon, Kira Sedwick. I'm just I'm so like, I just I hope everyone gets this book because it's it's awesome and I'm you know, we're only kind of a little more than a half in and I'm just so enjoying it. But is there one that you just really

loved reading? I think, uh, you know, content point earlier about how can someone of that stature, that lifestyle being a committed marriage and relationship for however many years they have and Llo cool J is one of those. They've been married for twenty five years. Wow. And he man in the height of his career. Yeah, I mean they met. They met when they were just teens. He had one record out, he was at the beginning of his career, so he hadn't really hit it like main mainstream yet.

And there's only a two year period that they were apart from each other, but that was still when they were just dating. They weren't even married yet. So any takeaways from that one, I think just their maturity talking about their relationship, it's just the way they talk to each other the way they talk about their marriage. There's just such kind of mutual respect there that you know, they value what each other is saying. Um, you know, because that's a cool thing about the book. It gives

a lot of dialogue. So in the book too, it'll say, you'll see the actual dialogue of what they said. So, yeah, of the conversation, so to have like Phil says this, and then you know Locol James, who's he goes by Todd? Todd says this, Simone says this, Mama says this, Toddy, I never knew that. To take away, the beginning of chapter feels like, so what do I call him? Like Ello cool j J? And his assistant was like, now it's call him Todd. What was that shark movie? Elcal

jameson deep? What what was that? Oh? Deep bluesy deeplu. Wasn't there a song that he had in there? Oh? God, was so starting me crazy? IMNA look it up. It was so bad, it was good, It was so bad, it was good. What about for you? What which one stood out so far? Um? Oh my gosh, well, I would say Michael J. Fox is kind of made me a little sad. Really, Well, let me know he's just here. I'll pull up one of the quotes that he they

talked about. But obviously you know, um, he got diagnosed a couple Yeah, I mean it's been I don't want to misquote it, but it's been at least fifteen years, hasn't it since he's been diagnosed with Parkinson's um. And she actually got Marlowe got she cried after she left their interview and because she just saw the beauty um one of the things that she wrote, and I'll tell you right now, I'm going to my little dog ear thing.

And she said, um, well, first of all, Tracy said, in marriage you have to take it all the good with the bad, and if you love somebody, you deal with whatever it is they're dealing with. Their issues become their issues. And I really took a lot from that because that's so true. I mean, especially in the vows when you marry someone, it's until death drew us part signals in health and sickness and in health, and you know that's exactly a thing in marriage. You have to

take it all the good with the bad. If you love somebody, you deal with whatever it is they're dealing with their issues become your issues. And you know, just with sickness or within addiction, or within compulsive this or personality, like your whatever issue that you have or start having in a marriage becomes your spouse's issue. Now you don't have to take it on, but it's still it's it's it's their choice whether or not to be a part

of it, to take it on. And you know that that kind of brings me to the question that we've gotten a lot, and it's like, how do you know to stay? How do you know it's worth it? And just you know, thinking of that quote and what we've talked about is even with that mindset of it becomes you're cross to bear your burden to be not not saying it necessarily from a negative place, but it's, uh,

it still takes both people, you know. So it's it's one of those things where it's not like, well, I'm married, I just have to deal with this. Yeah, And she says, Michael and Tracy showed me to the door. This is Marlowe speaking. And I began the short walk home. I hadn't taken more than a few steps before I began to cry. What I had witnessed for the past ninety

minutes was the very heart of the marital bond. It was uncanny to me and it remains so today that love and pain, joy and sadness, the best and the worst, can coexist so closely, and yet with such grace. Michael's illness is always there. The movement he has little control over is there. His disease is in their marriage, and their marriage is in his disease. They are braided as a given, and that braid is made of love and

commitment and steel. It filled me with love for them, and it filled me with love for my own husband. This is marriage. And I just remember when I when I read that the other day, I was just like, it gave me chills because that's so true. I mean, through illness, through all of it. That is a part

of the marriage. And you take on these It's almost like when we talk about in our book by the baggage, Like it's not saying that's baggage, but it is in a sense where you take on some persons maybe emotional past childhood wounds or that those become part of the marriage. And it's just yeah, it just made me really reflect a lot about you. Know our situation and addiction and and it's just because that is you know, it's it's

it's it's our issue now, it's not just yours. And again I don't take it on, but it is something that we do together as a team. Um yes, yeah, but you know you also yes, yes, it affects but at the same time, like it's there, and um, how do I say this, Like I'm not trying to it affects you, but it's not your responsibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go. And I'm not like I don't play like even though some would say I play victim, I don't like I'm not playing victim to it. It's just

it's there and we acknowledge it. But it's still part of staying and knowing things, just like you know that I I don't know, what's one thing that you know is one of my issues? Your perfect time? Oh my god, shut up? No, but I'm serious, you know, Like it's okay, We've it's almost like the sign up sheet. It's here, we've signed up for it. We we didn't sign up for it, but it's there, and this is marriage and we have to navigate it together. Like for me it

would be compromising on your timeline. So like with your timeline of things, you want things done, like there's no better time than the present. That's an issue exactly. Sometimes it's drop everything and do it now, you know, and so but it's but again that's why I talked about earlier, where we balance each other. It's like there's still a priority of things, like this certain thing can wait till tomorrow or can wait till later. It doesn't have to

be done right now. We don't have to stretch about it right now, we don't have to overthink this situation. Right now. We can cross certain bridges when we get to them right. So that's where I realized back. But also at the same time, at moments I am too laws I fare so you'll get those things in my head or get it, you know, higher on my priority list because it does need to get down or whatever

it is. So yeah, for sure, and I also think too, I mean, I'll give myself a little more and I'll say, you know, one of the issues that you have to deal without me is is from my past to where

sometimes I can maybe portray out on you unfairly. So just like when we said earlier, like childhood wounds or for mind, mostly like adolescent, but there can be certain things where it can Unfortunately you take the brunt of it because of you know, things that I'm still trying to to work through through you know, and in our relationship and stuff to do better and not to like it's not not put your face on it, you know,

for sure, I appreciate that. Um. Also, Kelly Rippa and Mark and Suelos, they were also in the book, and I love during their thing too. Right when they got married, she through the ring like they were over. So there's some juicy stuff in there too. It's so good. Um, but let's take one more break and hopefully we'll be able to get them on. So talking about all this stuff kind of made me think of something I was

on our our buddy Nick Wood six podcast. Um, you know, meet him and his brother a kind of having some dad talk, uh not too long ago, and we're talking about relationships and stuff, and I kind of said something making a point of I feel like when someone has asked a question, why do you love your partner, why do you love your your spouse or whoever? If someone answers quickly, then it's surface level interesting because it's easier to say, because love, as you and I have found out,

it's more than just a feeling. It's it's a concept. It is a feeling, but there's so much more attached to it. It's respect, it's understanding, its forgiveness, it's there's so much where it's more than just Oh, why do

you love Jane? Oh she's beautiful, she's hard working, she's this Like sometimes sometimes when I asked that question, it's it's almost hard to put into words, because how do you put into words everything we've been through and all the reasons that I love you induce into single adjectives, Like it's difficult when you really love somebody, when you're really committed in working at the relationship that you're in.

And I think what you're reading what Marlow was saying about Michael J. Fox's story at the end of that was so beautiful and that had me thinking about it. I'm like, when she was like, this is marriage, like braided together and all of this stuff, I was like, it's so much more than these surface level adjectives and why we love each other. So I just thought what Marlo said was beautiful and it just kind of had that It reminded me of that topic that I've talked

about with Nick. So, what did you come to the conclusion of on why I Love You? That would take a whole episode, honey, were you able to think about anything? She's got her fishing rout out fishing right now for just curious, like if anything, like, because that's what's a problem to like what if you couldn't find anything? Like what if you're like like, that's a bummer too, when when you start to when you don't really when you can't say why you love your spouse and not must

be the worst feeling. Because I've gotten there with I've gotten there with relationships before, but like why do I like, I don't even think I love you? And that like that realization is it's crazy. So I mean just think like, if someone's listening right now, I'm thinking about, Okay, what are the reasons like why do I love my husband? And if you're sitting there and you're just going like that, that's sad. That's that's almost a sad realization. That's a

that's a great a great point, and it's it. I'm sure there's people out there that even if they thought about it, right now like, Oh, why do I love my boyfriend or my significant other whoever they might? Actually I don't know, which is why I want to go thinking like that just sparked um when I was reading this book the other day with Jamie Lee Curtis and her husband, Um Christopher Guest, and she said, Jamie goes, the secret to marriage is how much hatred can your

marriage actually survive? And Marlowe actually goes hatred and Jamie says, yes, the idea that you wouldn't hate the other person is crazy. I think what happens is that people have an idealized agreement. They go into this thing with all the best intentions, and at some point I think they start hating some things, and then they get really terrified and they leave. And what I'm saying is if our contribution to your book about marriage is the word hatred, then both of us,

I think, will feel really good. I'm not saying that we have a perfect marriage. We don't. I don't think there is one. But I think what people want to know is that the other people. This is huge, but I think what people want to know is that other people struggle and that life is hard. It's the reason that quote from The Princess Bride is so profound. Life is pain highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something. And so I think people actually want to know that

other people have struggled. And then her husband said and that they're not alone. And I love this too, because Jamie Lee Curtis is twenty or sober. Shease. There's another quote I learned from recovery. If you stay on the bus, the scenery will change. That basically means that feelings come and go, and they can change from one day to the next. You may hate your spouse one day and the next day you don't hate them. But you wake up and it's a new day and a fresh start.

The scenery has changed. And to end all this, Jamie goes, what's the secret to staying married? Don't leave? Boom. That's awesome. That's like Mike drop right there. Look, I mean I get people sometimes I have no choice but to leave because I truly do believe that if there's just one person working in the marriage, it's not gonna last. And we talked about that a lot in our book, If Fight It's Which, By the way, pre order you can pre order Janna and Mike dot com. But it's two

people have to do the work. But there's gonna be sometimes where you might have to pick up the slack for the other person and vice versa. But I do you know the hatred word is just you know because there might be a tow back to that question. There might be a time when you're thinking, do I even love my spouse right now? Well? I think and that that's where it goes into this the idea. But between like and love, right it's like, I don't like you right now, but but you know I still love you

because to Jamie. To Jamie encouraged the point, it's like, I don't like you today, but I'm gonna stay on the bus because in theory, I'm gonna love. I'm gonna love you tomorrow or the next day or the you know what I mean. Like, so you don't always have to like each other, because God knows we don't always like each other. I just my mom always told me that hate was such a strong word and to never hate, like anytime I ever said I hate her my mom my mom My mom ground me if I said the

word hate. I was not allowed to say the word hate. Like it was just because you know as little girls, You're like, I hate you. It's like my mom would slap me and send me up to my room. Seriously,

I would get grounded for the word hate. So hate kind of I'm like, heye is such an such a scary word to me that I'm like, I don't know if I could ever say to you I hate you, even though there are plenty of times I in the dark days I've know I I would may even called you every other F bomb and a hole in the world, But I don't think I could actually say I h a t eu. She spilled it out of I'm just saying, like, I just like, that's just such a strong word to me.

For sure. I respect your beliefs, you're like, but I hate you. I hated you, No, not at all. It's interesting though, it is interesting, but I get it, Like, I just I think for me, like maybe would make me feel better, is like I've just liked you plenty and you've just liked me plenty. The hates just a little. But it's interesting. How much hate can your marriage survive? Well, let's talk to Phil and Marlow about it. Get them on and uh, I can't wait all right for all

of our listeners. We've been teasing this all episode, and we're so so, so privileged and excited to have the wonderful Phil Donahue and Marlowe Thomas on our show today. Thank you both so much for being here. Thank you, thank you, thank you. So we have been reading your book UM like crazy. It's been. It's such a great book. I love the concept how you guys went about it, but I kind of wanted to dive first into UM

to Marlow. Marlow, I was laughing when I was reading your part where you said that you didn't really even know if you wanted to get married, and then you said marriage is like living with a jailer. You have to please, and I was just like reading at the pools, I was like, I was just dying laughing because I'm because you were just like you had no interest at

all in getting married. No, never, never, never. Well, you know, I grew up with my father was one of ten Lebanese kids, nine of them were boys, So I saw nine Lebanese marriages dominated by these men, I mean, and they were very loving. They weren't abusive or anything. They were very loving husbands and loving dads. But they were the boss and the wives were in service to them.

And I mean, so that's a model I saw. And on my mother's side there she was one of five Italians, four girls and a boy, and they all had those same marriages. So to me, that was the definition of marriage and it was completely resistible. I mean, I thought, well, that's just not for me. And I wasn't upset about or anything. I just knew that's where I didn't want

to go. And uh, I had another line, which was marriages like at a vacuum cleaner and stick stick it to your ear and it sucks out all your energy and ambition. That's my other one. So nobody thought I would ever get married, and I don't think I would have had had you fallen in love with phil on

Um National Television. Yeah, well that didn't hurt. But also the world had changed a little bit, you know, and the definition of marriage relaxed, and I could see that I could, with the right partner, defined my own marriage that it didn't have to be that really strict place that I saw, but it could be a roomy enough place to embrace two whole careers, too, whole lives. Because I had my own life, my own name, my own house,

my own career, as did Phil. So we were very much the mirror image of each other in terms of personality and ambition and so forth. And that wouldn't have been possible. I could never have married a man like my father or my uncle's. It just what wouldn't have happened. So uh so a lot had to happen. I had to I had to meet the right man who I could define my marriage with, and uh and make a new model. And it's funny. The first five years of

our marriage we lived in two different cities. I was working in l A. He was working in Chicago during the Donna Hue Show. I was produced, seeing like about twelve movies in those five years. And he was raising his four sons. He had custody of his four boys. They were in school. So we were traveling every weekend to each other. And an aunt of mine said to me,

that's not a real marriage. And I thought to myself, this is why I never married, because I thought marriage had to be her definition, and in fact, she thought my marriage wasn't even a real marriage. And then, of course, after five years, Phil moved the show to New York. I moved myself to New York and we made a new life. But that wouldn't have been possible. I mean, even a man making the move. You know, when we

went on the sixty minutes. Sixty minutes did a beautiful show on Phil on the Donna Hue Show, and I of course was interviewed for it, and he said to me, you know, he said, I don't know that it's right for a man. He said, maybe I'm old fashioned, but it's not the man that moves, it's the woman that moves. And I said, oh, Mike, you're not old fashioned, your man all and so. And I loved him because he left it in you know that I called the Neanderthal,

but that really was. And Mike, Mike Wallace was an older man. I mean, if he were alive now, he'd be over a hundred years old. So for him, that was just a whole other world where men moved their jobs for a woman. You know. But the reason he moved it is that we talked about how could we make a life together. And Phil said, I can't make a career in in in Los Angeles. You know, I'm not interested, not interested in Hollywood personalities, you know. He put some on, but mostly he was in the world

of politics and so forth. And I said, well, I can't work in Chicago. I mean the places where I could work our l A and New York. And so he said, well I could work in New York. So we actually chose New York. You know, we could have chosen Budapest. I mean, we've shows the place, but we both could work. That's what that decision was about. And ultimately it seems like you guys chose each other and Marlow, I have a question for you again before we go

to Phil. And in the beginning of the John McEnroe Patty Smith, Uh you know section of the book there's a quote saying women are notorious are saying, oh, he's got potential, but potential is not good enough and says, marry the person, don't marry potential. When you and Phil began to court each other, was there anything that you saw your like, Okay, I know I love Phil, but there's some things that need to change. Or did you just accept him for who he was? No, we did

not accept each other but who we were. I think we we fought pretty hard the first ten years of our marriage. I think because we were in a power struggle. Really, it wasn't that I wish that he was someone else. I just wish that he was more like me, and he wished that I was more like him, you know, that kind of thing. But but we we know, what are the interviews that I love in our book Judy VORs who's a great children's writer and also written books

for adult as well. She and her husband Milton have been married for sixty years, and she said, you know, no matter how hard you try, he's never gonna be you, and you're never gonna be him. So you're just gonna have to take it as a given that you're different people and accommodate the differences. Don't try to change him. You don't have to compromise your soul for it. Just

to accommodate who he is, accommodate who she is. And so we we didn't do that on our own, but she put it in the words that I had not put into words before, and that really is the truth. I wanted him to do things more my way. He wanted me to do things more his way. And we and being type A personalities, we're both bossy. We both ran our own shows and so we were used to people doing it the way we wanted to do it,

and you had to get marriage. The other person doesn't do it the way you want to do it, you have to negotiate that, and you have to step back and say, okay. You know, he's more laid back than me. I'm a very assertive kind of personality, and so if there's a a challenge, you know, I'm the one that runs for the telephone, myth let's call this one, let's do that one, let's find a solution. He's the one that says, let's just think this out a second. Wait,

wait a minute, what what what's the pros? What's the cons That used to annoy me? You know, I say, come on, we can we can do this, we can fix this, and he would be annoyed that I was imposedly going forward. But we learned through the years two appreciate each side of it. That a lot of the times it was better to step back and look at it, and a lot of times it was better to jump

for a solution. But we had to negotiate that rather than insist that we do it immediately the way the other one wanted to do it, and then not pout about it afterward if we didn't get our way, so

that that takes some doing, no question. And Phil, let's get to you for a second with as long as you all have been married, and before we dive in with some of the celebrity couples, y'all interviewed and shared stories with what advice would you would you have just in your personal experience for young married men, even like myself, my wife and I just celebrated five years um married and but just went through your experience, would you have

to tell someone like me, your other guys out there, Well, you know, a marriage is a high point. I mean, the white dress, the rice, I mean it's so one you know, dancing, oh, your friends and family, Uh, you know, and you're married in a cloud of lust, and you know, suddenly things become pretty routine day by day and challenging. Yeah, And I think it's important for people to anticipate this. It's amazing really that we get married way up here, higher than a kite, and then all of a sudden,

you know, you have to take out the garbage. So you know, a lot of things, a lot of things change after you're married. And I think that the marriages that last are among our between two people who anticipate these peaks and valleys. There's no such thing as smooth sailing from beginning to end. Every we learned this in our travels meeting all these couples that you know. It's it's amazing that the ones, the ones you look on

from the outside, appear to be so idyllic. After you to talk to him a little while, you begin to realize that they've all faced serious emotional difficulties that they did not anticipate. So you know, I hate to be the person who brings the dark cloud over everything, but I do think it helps if you anticipate the reality.

I don't think it's a dark cloud. I think what you're saying is is important because you know, when you're walking down that aisle, all you can think of is how great this person is, and how great he makes you feel and she makes you feel, and and how you know you're going to be the couple that has

the perfect marriage. Well, you can have a very perfect marriage, except the world comes in at you with disease, with addiction, with loss of money, with loss of job, with infidelity, with the sick child, with a with a child who dies with a sudden illness. I mean, all these things that that had happened with Jamie Lee Curtis was a drug addict. Her husband didn't even know that Neil Patrick Harris's husband, David Burka, had severe alcoholism. They didn't get

married with those problems or knowing about those problems. Jesse Jackson went off and and had an affair with a woman and had a baby outside of the marriage. What's his name? Ciara Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon lost all their savings thirty years of savings in the Bernie Madoff scandal. Um And and uh, Judy Woodruff and al Al Hunt had three children and their first form was born was

fine a bifida, which is a lifelong problem. And Michael J. Fox and Tracy Poland, three years into marriage, we were given his diagnosis of Parkinson's, which would be a lifelong situation. So all of these these things things happened. But you said a great thing, Philip, You said, well, you know, well, you you know about the did these people really wanted it to work? Yeah? That's uh, you know, you can see it feel in what they say, how they act.

Um the marriages at last between two people who really want the marriage the last. I mean, it has to have the will there, and all of them did. I mean, that was one common denominator of all the couples that we interviewed. And they really and they went to marriage count I'm swing, they went to seminars which they had troubles. They really were invested in it. They weren't running for

the exit sign when the big storm came. So when any of those things came, like infidelity, loss of money, loss of job, all that stuff came, illnesses, they didn't run away. And I got the feeling and I hadn't really thought of it before. After talking to all these couples and hearing how they went through each challenge, I thought, you know, I bet most people get a divorce or runaways because they're afraid they can't do it. They're afraid they don't have what it takes to face one of

these big things. They just they don't. It's got to be because what you gotta get chicken, you gotta get scared.

What else would it be? There's no question, And Janna and I have experienced a lot of that firsthand through addiction, infidelity, all of that in our marriage too, and you guys are kind of preaching exactly what we like to say as well, which is, you know, it's so it's much harder to stay than it is to leave, and you know, hitting the eject button and just walking away from these problems when you're not when like you said, Marlo Enfield, when you're scared of them or don't know how to

handle them. It's ultimately, what Joanna and I found out is similar to the stories that you're sharing, is just we wanted it and we're going to do whatever we needed to to make it work. And it's such a you know, reassuring feeling like having couples to of the you know, celebrity stature that you've interviewed that you guys are, and understanding that the rest of us aren't alone. Like we all have our our crap, we all have something

that we've dealt with. And that's what Jane and I really got from your book is just every story there's something everyone's marriage and just like with the with you know, the Michael j Fox and Michael and I were talking about that was like a game of goose bumps, goose bumps when he said, you know she was she was said in marriage you have to, you know, take it all the good with the bad, and you know, their

issues become your issues. And with our marriages, you know, his addiction then became you know, I don't take it on, but it's still a part of our marriage now and it's something we have to to work together on. You know. I think when you go through it, it's like going through a fire. When you get up to the other side of the fire, you burned off a lot of crap that was there. You burned off all the unnecessary

stuff that you fight about. Because once you go through a big thing, you know, you burned off the petty stuff and now you're now you're kind of naked. Now you now you can begin well. And yeah, and I wonder because you know, because our first five have been

just it's been a battle. But I wonder, now, okay, are we gonna because I feel stronger than I did the day that I married him, and you know, even through all the discoveries and stuff, like, I feel we're stronger than we would have been if that didn't happen. In a weird way, like I hate that it's dead.

For all the pain and all the turmoil, but I almost like I love him more because I know all the scars and because of the pain that like we've pushed through and we've endured that now we can communicate more here and you're in it together, and and and communicate together and then and also to have a set of boundaries that, uh, you know, I can't tolerate not being able to trust you. I have to know that you're my guy, you're my girl, know that you aren't

going to wander away from me. I mean, those are commitments that we make to each other, you know, Uh, Phil and I, I mean we've been married forty years, so we have discussed all of those things. Was there something in your marriage where it was almost a breaking point where you just couldn't do it anymore? Well, I think for us it was really the being a part and those our careers were so important to us each individually, and we were able to say to each other, uh,

you know verbally, I really respect your work. I really respect your work. I respect your ambition, aspect your ambition. But deep down we really didn't. Deep down we really were saying to ourselves, if you really loved me, you give that a little bit of that up if you really loved me, you would, you know, not do that

so much. The truth is is that the the ambition that I felt for I mean, a small story about that is that at one point Phil was mad at me that I wasn't coming to Chicago more because I was working in Los Angeles and I was working as a producer and the star of these movies. So I wasn't able to just run away for five days. I would had to be there and so one weekend, you know, I would get there on a Friday night, leave on a Sunday night. Well why can't you come on Thursday?

Why can't you leave on Monday? So he was he was questioning my real commitment, you know, to the marriage. And I said to him, and we were fighting a lot, and I said to him, I said, you know how ambitious you are. You know how much you've invested in your work. I mean, his first marriage really kind of fell apart because he was holding down three jobs and trying to make it. And you know, Gay didn't give as much of the marriage and as all into the

family as one might have wanted. Anyway, I said, so you know how much you've sacrificed for your work. You know how ambitious you are, you know how much you put into it, how hard you've had to work to become who you are. I said, we'll put a skirt on it, and that's me. So if you don't understand that that that's me, then you can't get We can't get there from here, you know. And that really kind of was a turning point for us because you can say all the verbal oh, I really believe in you,

I think you're really what your dreams are important. But if it's an inconvenience to you, you know, if you're you know, then then you're in trouble. It's got it's got to be. It's gotta be all the way. And that's what I saw in my parents marriages and all my uncle's marriages. Sure they love their wives, they wanted their wives to have happiness and all that, but not an inconvenience to them. Yeah. So I think I think our our ambition was a very It was a separating

situation in for us for sure. And nowadays, how do you guys manage your conflict resolution when you have arguments, when things come up, what's y'all's secret or your key to kind of you know, resolving those Well, one of the we interviewed James Carville and Mary Madalen is that when you guys were fighting right before you um went to the interview. Oh that was to Yeah, that was so funny. I was like, I loved that moment. Sorry. It's like they're like, we were fighting and you're like, secret,

we were fighting too, right, James Carville story is funny. Well, it's um. James Carville said, when you find yourself and your spouse going around and around on an issue that is really mickey mouse, when you step back, the thing I like to do is I say out loud to my spouse, let's kick that can down the road. And it sounds very cliche and corny until you do it at which I did. We did when we both came back off the road and we were going around and around on one of those things. Well, you said you

did this, No I didn't, I said. You said, you know, back and forth, back and forth, and you know it usually ends up with somebody pouting and until said, oh, let's just kick this can down the road. And it's true, you can just say, oh this is stupid, let's stop it. So that's one way that's one. It's kind of a

good tool. But I think really more important is that when you get to an impasse where he's holding ground and I'm holding ground, and we're both like stubbornly hanging on to what we each feel is the right way to do something or or the wrong way that the other one did, whatever it is, that impast somebody has to be the one to break the impast that that that's the only way a marriage is gonna work, is that at different times each of you will I call

it take the walk across the desert like sadat did you know? Somebody has to walk across the desert and say, look, I'm sorry if it sounded like this, or I'm sorry that I did that. I sorry I made you feel bad? Or did I do something that made you feel bad? What are you so piste off about? Let's talk about what what are you feeling? You know? Not not that uh, As Peter Herman Mariska Hargeta Sumen said, you can't say I'm sorry if I made you feel bad. You know

they feel bad. I'm sorry I made you feel bad. I'm sorry I said that that that made you feel bad. I was cranky, I was in a bad mood because I just got had a fight with my sister, or

I got rejected for something I wanted. Whatever. You have to look into yourself because a lot of the times when people lash out at each other or pout or something, it's because something else was going on also, you know, but hanging on and holding a grudge, that's just absolutely a no no. You just have to give that up. It is just bad behavior. You're gonna get nowhere with it. Um being stubborn pouting. One of us used to pout a lot. I wonder who that was. I was a

Hall of Fame powder, Yeah, he really, that's funny. It's it's interesting more. I feel like more men do that. I feel like we get defensive more. Yeah, I don't know. You know, I'm a half Italian and half Lebanese, so I'm a very out there kind of person. You don't ever have to try to read my mood. It's pretty obvious. Um, and I don't pout, Harley. I'm curious though, because in the Viola interview, because this is something that UM I

do as well. So you said that you're the chaser and you follow Phil around until you get him to hear you, and I feel like in our relationship it doesn't work because he shut off Phil. Do you actually hear her when she's going after you? Because I feel like I do that And Mike's like, I can't hear you right now, and I'm trying to be like, but listen to me, listen, listen, and he's just like, doesn't want anything to do with me. So I'm like, how

do you make that work? Because I like that strategy and does it actually work well after all these years it works better. It's still his person it's still his personality to walk away from confrontation. It's still his personality. He doesn't it isn't even confrontation. He'll he'll confronted, but when he's feeling all tied up inside, he doesn't know how to get it out. He doesn't have that and the honey stopped me if I'm wrong, But you don't have a he doesn't have a built in path back

to the sanity of the situation he has. He's dealing with it and sometimes he has to leave the room to deal with it, and I chase him and say, come on, let's talk this out. Come on, don't let's do this, let's do that, and you know, and I'll do that, and then sometimes I'll just leave him alone, and then a little while later he'll come to my study or something and say, Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, here's what I was thinking. He wants he I wanted to

be over immediately. He can't get over it immediately, but he's gotten to a place now where he'll get over it quicker. Right. We don't have the same pathway to our own emotions and I nobody does. And everybody is different in that way. And so I think you've kind of given up to it a little bit. Oh, I'm a whole new person for four Y think it's I think it's really important. It's a very good question. How do you get past those two different Well, just you

did it the other day. You're really mad at me about something and I and I got upset and I left the room. I said, well, this is this is just unfair. I'm not gonna listen to this, and I left the room and I went to my study. And about a half hour later, hour later, you came in and said, Okay, I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. And not everybody has to studies, so UM, yeah, you know, it's certainly it'slf does. But uh, you know, as you can see, I'm you know, I'm sort of a B

personality when I'm with Marlowe. I think Phil, I think you and I are cut from the same cloth, because this sounds very, very familiar, right, honey. Well it's interesting though, because marlow what I found is that if I continue to chase Mike, he doesn't hear me, and because I'm almost looking, you know, to resolve or I want an apology. But when I just stop and I don't do that, he comes back so much quicker and then owns the

stuff and he sees it like way sooner. If I'm trying to be like, didn't you can't you see that you did this A B, C, D and E and like. But when I just like, all right, go have whatever mood you want to have and I stay in the room where I go outside, he almost acknowledges it quicker and comes back quicker if I don't chase him. So that's kind of been looking for its exactly exactly. That's

what I'm saying. You have to respect and accommodate the other person's ability to get to find the path back to their own sanity, because it's it's an insane moment when you get that kind of upset. You know, you're not you're not in your comfort zone. You've fallen out of your comfort zone. And again it's fear, you know, it doesn't know how to handle that particular emotion whatever it is, for sure. And and then in the Jamie Lee Curtis and Christopher guest, was it hatred? Was that

the word? Yes? Okay, because at the beginning of the show, we we started talking about that because you know, I was chuckling, but also I'm like, I don't know, I've disliked Mike and he's disliked me many times in our short five years. But I don't know if I could say that I've that I hate him. I don't know, Like I just feel like, so I'm curious, have y'all have y'all felt that or or what? No? Actually, no, that That's why I said a word that I made

her repeat it. Yeah, you know, she said that the that the psychiatrist said to her marriage depends on how much hatred you can bear something like that, And I thought, a toyler and how much hatred you can tolerate, and I thought, wow, hatred. No, I have never felt hatred or Phil. I've been really mad at I'm really piste off and want to kill him, but I haven't hated him. I love it like I wanted to kill too, But I still don't hate you exactly. Hey, it is a

pretty strong word. I once asked Billy Graham on my show, Um, have you ever have you ever thought about divorce? And he said, divorce, never murder. Yes, that's perfect. Was there anyone with the forty couples that you interviewed? Was there anybody on your list that you weren't able to get in the book or it just scheduling didn't work out that you'd like to still have this conversation with in the future. Well, we wanted, We very much wanted to

interview the Obama's and the Bushes. Uh that I'm I was just so interested. Um, you know, being famous is one thing, but being scrutinized every minute of the day is another. And I was just interested in how their marriages didn't grow or did grow, or you know what did that do? Because I know in our marriage when we were first married, I was a little scared off by the scrutiny that we were put under right away.

I mean we were married about six months and and there were already reports that we were getting a divorce and people making up stories that we had seen a lawyer and you know, and none of it had happened. But it was like, wow, this is gonna be weird. You know, people just can make up things, thank god before social media. But it would appear, and you know, in in crumby papers like the Inquirer and stuff. But still it's out there. And what happens is it's out

there in a Crumby newspaper. But then the next time you do an interview in a good newspaper, it'll say there's been reports of their getting a divorce. You said, but wait a minute. That was in a paper that says it has a story about a woman who gave birth to a whale. Why would you take that seriously? Um? So and they so they follow you around, you know, these stories. And so I didn't like the the scrutiny and the and the made up divorce stories at first.

So I can imagine how you know, what that kind of life was doing. How does it how does it work on your marriage? Like for me, when there would be stories about us that were untrue, I wanted to immediately have a statement and have the press age and put out something. And Phil's personality was never complained, never explained. So we battled about that and I would say, yeah, but if we don't say anything, we don't defend ourselves,

it will look like it's true. And he will say, don't You're just going to feed the story, never complain, never explain. Well, it turned out that I did it his way. I mean I decided I didn't do it his way to please him. I did it his way because I decided that he was right. It was contrary to what I was my impulse, but I thought about it and thought, he's right. No, I didn't do it just to please him, because then I would have resented it. I did it because I was convinced by his point

of view. But but but you have to be open to it. I totally get that point. I think with us too. You know, things had come out in the public with us, and there was a point where I kind of wanted to talk about it more just because to set the narrative, and you know, and we kind

of struggled on that a little bit um. So there's there's definitely positives and negatives to it, because you know, now that y'all have talked about your story, you're helping a lot of people too, you know, And I think that's that's kind of the silver lining to being married for forty years and sticking through it and having the in an mede, I guess in the very beginning of not sharing things, but then you know, now having your book and telling your story, that just shows you know

what you all have been through and everything else. So I kind of love that as well. Yeah, and this may this may be a little bit of a cynical question, but with everyone that you interviewed, did you guys ever question their level of honesty when sharing such intimate stories or you know, ideas about their marriage. I don't know, did you. Well? I was shocked at how open everybody was, for sure. Well when they let us in, you know, when we'd go a knock on their door. I remember

they looked at you, like, what what's your angle here? Right? And the minute I said something about our marriage, no matter how trivial, it just seemed to blow open a large door and they couldn't wait to talk about their marriage. So, yeah, I went into this thinking we do maybe minute thirty five minute interviews and how long did we three hours? It would be three hours. And you know, the book was originally supposed to be three fifty pages. It's six pages.

And we had told the publisher that we expected that each chapter would be about words, which is a nice article length. But each chapter is five thousand words. Elton John is six thousand words, um. Because the stories were very rich, we had not expected them to be that interesting. And when we got to you know, we we obviously taped it, uh, and then we got the transcript back and we would go through it and circle, you know what we thought was really good, and there was just

a lot that was so good. And then we started taking ourselves out of it in order to make them shorter. And then we realized, about we take ourselves out of it, it's not really honest as to what had happened. So then we put ourselves back in it, and they were just very long. And when we turned the book in, we thought for sure that our publisher at Harper's would ask us to cut it or to take some stories

out in order to make it shorter. But she didn't, she wrote, She called us and said, I think these stories are very good and I don't want you to touch a word of it. So we didn't. We were very lucky. Yeah, we second that just from our experience of reading it, because it doesn't feel like a six page read at all. And it's like you said, if you guys took your part out or try to condense these stories, it wouldn't be the same, it wouldn't be

as impactful. And so I just know from we're huge fans of it and what you guys did with this book. So yeah, and just again not feeling alone because sometimes I think, are we the only people that have struggled in our marriage? Were the only people that have had these issues? And then when I read stories of other couples and you, it's just like, wow, Okay, we're not alone, So thank you for having for other people and exactly. And you know what's really interesting is that you're the

winner because half of us get divorced. So that's that's what's interesting. The statistics are, which was one of the reasons why we were interested in doing the book, The statistics are that half of us get divorced in this country, so the half of us that don't get divorced. Us you, the people in this book. We've had to go through a lot to burn off the bad stuff to be able to to be able to live with another person

who's completely different from you. I mean, one of the things Jamie Lee Curtis said is that we are completely different from each other in every way. There's nothing And and Rob Ryaner said an interesting thing. He said, you have to work your own side of the street first, each of you, before you can come together as a couple. You've got to fix up all the stuff it's wrong

with you. And then and then all the stuff that you dumped on the other side of the street too, So the stuff that I might have dumped on his side of the street, and then he dumped on my side of the street. So it's like double double clean up exactly each person. And and Ted Dancing and Mary Steamberge and talked about that as well. This is his third marriage, her second marriage. And I said to him, three marriages, where'd you get the optimism to get married

a third time? And he and they've been married thirty years, so it's working. Um, he said, well, I had to change some things about myself, like I had to stop lying. He said, I was a liar. I said about what he said about everything, but what I was feeling. I was also unfaithful. But I didn't tell the truth about who I was because I wanted to be the big, the white knight on a white horse. But so I didn't tell what I was really feeling, my insecurities, all I kept all that away to look like I was

better than I was. I had to learn to be real and vulnerable and say who I was so that I could, you know, not play games. He said in early on in my relationship with Mary, when I would start to play a game, she would look at me, and I could tell that this she could tell that it was a lie. She she would call me on it. You know, I had to be a better person. I had to be not a better person, to be a more honest person of who I was. She could love me who who I was. I didn't have to pretend

to be somebody else. And I think that's we do that a lot to all of us, you know we Chris Rocks has a great line. He says, when you're dating, you're not really dating the real person you're you're dating the representation of the sitting out their representative, you know, their best self. But when you get married, you're gonna see all the other stuff that your representative didn't show before.

And and then you learn to work through that and find those things either darling or attractive, or sensitive or sympathetic or downright unacceptable and you have to work through it, you know. Yeah, And that's just it. I mean, Ted's just what you're saying from Ted story mirrors kind of my own, and some I've a mantra for myself to remind myself when I have those moments. Is just you know, if if I thought the grass was greener, it's just

gonna be the same story but a different cast. If I don't, if I'm not introspective, it's gonna the same thing is going to happen. It doesn't matter who my wife is, doesn't matter who my partner is, and so it's just gonna be the same thing that Janna and I try to talk about on our show and in the book that we're doing. Doing is just you know, like you guys are saying, you got clean your side of the street. It starts with you, right, why did

you decide to do a show. So it actually started with just me UM and I had written a book UM kind of about things, and which you know, he was not ready for it, and he ripped it up and we got into a big old fight about it, and I was like, but I feel like we went through this so we could help people, and and he was still really stuck in a shame at the time. And so then I started this podcast and he came on as a guest, and I said, look, you don't

have to say anything. We don't have to talk about addiction. At the time, no one knew about a sex addiction. And I was like, you just go at your own pace.

We don't have to tell a soul. And it was what two episodes in where we talked about affairs, you know, me being new and twelfth that program of sex addiction and things just kind of took off, and you know, just we realized like, the same thing that we feel read y'all's book is what we got to feel as well, with people being like, oh my gosh, you know my husband's an addict as well, or because you gotta share this, we don't feel so alone we're dealing with infidelity and

and so they kind of grew into what the show is now and it's you know, it can be challenging at times, but I think this the silver lining is knowing that we're able to help people, just as you guys are doing with your book too. And you know, now we have a book with HarperCollins as well as there are publishers too, and comes out September about the Good Fight and things that you know, we are by

no means perfect or you know, have it all figured out. Shoot, you're fighting thirty minutes before this too, and it was just but here are just some of the things that we learned to keep fighting because you know, you gotta get in there and you gotta work it all out because you know, we have two beautiful kids and we want you know, we want to be good parents and good partners for each Really, it's really important to keep fighting,

It really is. I mean, we know so many couples who never had a fight, you know, and they're divorced now because you're not telling if you're not disagreeing with your mate, then you're not telling the truth. People that are not born to peace in a pod. I mean, I I fight with my brother and sister I mean, you can't agree with people all the time, and if you don't let it out, then you have resentment. I mean.

Deborah Roberts was married to Al Roker, talked about resentment that she felt that she gave up a lot of her career in order to take care of their children. He didn't ask her to do that. She made that decision to do that, but she resented the fact that he didn't do it. Well, that wasn't his fault. He didn't tell her to do it in the first place. But she felt as a woman, as a mother, that she had to give up a lot of her career. But she never talked about it. She just resented it.

And then finally she got it out and they went into marriage counseling and so forth. But that's what happens. If you don't talk about it, it will fester and boil until it becomes impossible. Did you guys go to counseling. We've done more therapy, individual couples and intensive We've done it all in the last five years. That's great, but I've I'm more in love with them today that I than I was yesterday. So I like because of our struggle,

like I love our struggle. It's been great. I think if you if you agree to go to counseling, that is a fabulous act of love. That's a person who really wants to make this happened to make the marriage laugh? Uh you know, because who the who wants to go and talk about it with a stranger. But if you agree to do that, uh, that you know, that's pretty

pretty big evidence that you want this marriage. And we discovered that attitude and a lot of the a lot of the people the couples were interviewed, often it's one person that saves the marriage and makes it last by taking by by by bringing up the therapy. But but the couple, But the couple who then do it together like Ron and Show Howard and Brian Kranton and Robin Dearden and all of them who did it together, that

became you know, that's what saves their marriage. And that's that's what's Phil said from the very beginning of his talk that we're having is that really what makes a marriage last is both people wanted to last and work for it, and and there's just no other way because there's no way for two individual people unless you're gonna marry a sponge. You know that that's that's gonna that's gonna work unless you both invest in it, really have to invest in it. And I think that's the beauty

of it and and the fun of it. And and as you were saying, you love him more, you love him more because you do see his his frailties and his imperfections and his desire that for the love of the two of you, he's willing to solve those challenges. That's that's that's great. I mean that that really is I think that is what makes that's called love. That that is it. Well, see, we read about a lot of love in y'all's book What May Some Marriage Last?

And so please everyone, please please please get this book. It's so so so good. Um and Marlow I'm from Michigan too, So Michigan, Michigan love right here and we love St. Jude. It's one of the most magical places ever. So thank you for everything you do. St Jude. Yeah, we um with within country music, We've we've been there a bunch um with the you know, the St. Jude radio thon. So just thank you for everything you do. Um, Phil, I love you. You are an inspiration both of you two.

So thank you so much. Everyone will get what makes a marriage last awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Okay, okay, love I mean I love them. I want to be in their next book. I just want to sit down with them and tell stories and have conversations. Oh for sure, Marlo just is my spirit animal. She really is. I of her. Um. But I hope

you guys got a lot out of this. And there's just one thing I want to say too, because you said it's I think you said it's easier to leave, and I just want to say, because some people say when you say easier, simpler, m it says comparing the decisions, I gotta say, it would be really effing hard to leave. It takes a lot of kudos. I think to leave and to be a single parent. Sometimes it's if you yeah,

like it's easier to stay. When there's because I just for the women that have like I can't like when I think about being a single parent. Sytimes when I'm like, go down to the divorce train. In my mind, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I want them every day by myself? No, No, for sure, I'm saying that I was talking about divorce in general. That's why because people think it's easier just

to leave. Okay, that's what I'm saying generally. That's why it's divorced right in our countries because people have this misconception that it's just easier to leave. Oh, I don't want to go through this pain. I'm just gonna leave, Okay. Cool. I just wanted to make sure for those people out there to be like, wait a minute, no, no, no. I said that one time, and I got in a lot of trouble, so I was just protecting. I knew what you meant, right yeah, no, no, no, no, okay. Um,

we'll just leave it with this. This is part of their book Um in the Tony and Brooke Adams Um, Brooke says the bottom line is, and I say this as a woman, a woman, Women are impossible and men are annoying. We'll leave it at that. Later