Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast. Hi, Hi, guys, it's the week.
Good morning, Jana, Good morning. That would be my current mood. Good morning Jana and Catherine.
Guys.
What a blessed day today is? It's book week. It is book week, and I'm really proud of you.
Thank you.
I got teared up. Did you hear it on the Instagram? I tried to swallow my tears fast, friend, I did.
Why did you get teared?
Probably cry right now?
Okay?
Episode of wind Down. Yeah, I'm just really proud of you.
Same.
Kat had said something to me we were flying back from New York last night, and I sometimes forget because I've we've all lived it.
But I guess.
I in my mind it might have not been as heavy and she was ever she was. I'll let you say what you said to me on the plane about how every time you.
Read it, every time I read anything about it, every time you talk about it, it makes me cry. And I'm not I mean, I am a crier, but I like to avoid my feelings. You know, there is something about this topic that just gets me every single time. I was crying in the car on the way here.
She was and I called her. She called me and I was like, I was just crying and listening to.
Worship music too, because I go I mean, anyway, I don't want to go straight into I mean, it's book week. I'm so excited for you, but yeah, it's a lot, it's emotional.
Well you almost I think I forget I didn't go through all of this alone, and you guys carried a lot of this with me. You were in the book and I can't remember which chapter it was, but we were under a table together, you and me, KB and then Catherine obviously, I mean, you are a ginormous part
of the book. And there's so many things that we'd talk about from the very beginning too, and there's so many things too that you know, are even not in there, that we've been through with everything, and so for I almost forget how much weight you guys have also carried through the last seven years of this next chapter.
Yeah, I think it's about to sixty two hundred and sixty pounds is what we were carrying. Does that feel accurate? I'm not sure exact weight class, but.
I think that, at least speaking for myself, I don't even think I realize until those moments how much weight I was carrying in that time.
You carried double I think, right, it's.
Just like in the moment, it's just like, what do we need to do. Let's take care of things, let's you know, da da da. It's not until I hear y'all talk about it and I go back there, or I read about it and I think about it and I'm so emotional. I don't realize how much weight it actually was on me as well.
What do you think as a friend was the hardest piece for you going through that journey with me those many years.
The hardest part was just seeing you hurt. I mean, it's nobody wants to see anybody hurt, but then to have the person that's so closest to you hurt over and over and over again. But also in part not doing it to yourself, but allowing it, and that's I think was the hardest piece, because it's like you, I understand that you can't see it when you're in the
middle of it. I totally understand that, but that's what's so frustrating on this point, this part, you know, it is like you can't see it, but you're so hurt, and you keep getting hurt, and you're allowing yourself to get hurt. But it's like a it's a it's a frustrating and hard feeling because you know, I mean, as Amy's told me before, like they have to see it for themselves, and you know that. I know that in that moment, but I'm like just praying, like what at
what point? At what point is she going to see it for herself? At what point is the hurt not going to be worth it? It was interesting to me.
I felt like I always was fighting, as long as you were fighting, and then there was the time, like the straw that broke the camel's back for me was not as catastrophic and big as I thought it would be.
I thought it would be like a big.
Like some giant relationship or some huge, you know, something outside of marriage. And I was like, that's it. And I remember exactly where I was when you sent it.
I remember exactly how I typed it in, just sent it from my soul, and I I think it's just difficult because we were friends with him too, and so it was like, stop messing with this, like stop messing with all of us, stop hurting our friend, but then also like we have fun game nights and we're all we all have inside jokes, like Kat and I have both been on the road with you at separate times, like I did all of Texas with you and Mike, you know, like I'm like, but this is too tall, Mike,
Like get it together, dude, you have such a good life. Yeah. And I always well, especially layered for you, Cat, because you have the business side to carry too, Like you defend her as a friend, but then you also defend her as a client. And so that's why to me it always is perceived as double heavy. Not that you have ever framed it that way, but in my brain, I'd always literally had said like, oh, I wouldn't want to be Cat.
Well, it's just a hard wanting to be a friend, but also thinking like but how do we protect her?
You know?
I mean, yeah, you got to think about that. How do we protect finances? How do we protect you know? You have to go into like a business mode and a and it's hard and I can remember very specifically in that time, and I hope you heard it this way. I tried really hard. You know, Okay, this is friend Kat talking, this is business Cat talking now because it
seems so callous. I mean, it just seems so and I understand I am a tough love type person anyways, So then that layered with that having to go okay, but we have to think about this too. It seemed hard and it was hard for me, and it was hard. It made me feel, you know, like I was just too tough sometimes. And you know, at the end of the day, I was probably the one person that from
the beginning said leave. I understand that I'll never forget when you called and say okay, k Beef actually said it's time, you know, because I had just was the only one that kind of from the beginning whether I should have or I shouldn't have. You know, I go back and forth on whether I should have even stated that, but I kind of was the one, you know that just from the beginning was like enough is enough?
Is that where you think he, y'alls, why you think he throughout the years didn't like you? Probably that you guys had that tension.
Yeah, you know, And it's it's so hard because hearing that has really it's really it's really been hard, you know, hearing you say the other day you're not sure if he liked me the whole time. That was hard to hear because, like you said, like I considered him a friend and I'm going to cry because I did. I loved him too, and her husbands loved him. Yeah, and he hates us now, you know, And that's not easy and somewhat not fair. You know, I don't feel like that's fair.
Because we also defended him on the backside so many.
Yeah, every time you said I'm not leaving, I'm forgiving him, I chose to. I don't know if I forgave him, but I chose to move on. Sure, I chose to get along with him. I chose for him to still be my friend. Did I believe everything he was saying? No, I didn't. But I made a conscious choice to if you're going to stay in this, I'm going to be in this. And I think that's just it is.
Man.
It's just hard to really hear that. I guess he didn't feel the same way. Well, I don't know.
I was just right, and you're probably right. There was always that when there was a fight, it would be like, well, Catherine's just your yes person or this or whatever, and.
Well, and what's interesting to that to me is. I was thinking about this the other night. I feel like if I was your yes person, I would have said, oh, yeah, you're right, you can make this work. I was the opposite, and so in that moment, I truly and I wasn't necessarily the opposite, you know. I wasn't always just like, oh my god, you know him or you know or whatever, but it was a y'all can't keep doing this to yourselves.
You can't keep living this way. So yeah, I mean I know that he thought that about me, that I was your yes person. To me, I just felt like that, you know, for the longest time, truly, you just wanted to make it work. You really wanted people to tell you to make it work. In my mind, I think you did well.
I also think you thought it could like you have two kids with someone. This isn't like a totally.
Breakup, right, And when you believe so that when someone says I'll know, it's like you want to believe. Of course you do also the father of your children, right, And so I think that that kept me staying there because it's it's like, well, what if he did what
if he did change? Then then what you know? And I think what I kind of realized through the book and when you guys read it too, is even if and I even said in there, like even if there wasn't some monumental thing, there were so many we were not each other's person and it wasn't just because of the infidelity. And that's something that I realized, Like he didn't meet the needs that I really truly love now and received from Alan and everything else.
So it's he didn't give you a chance to get to know yourself well either. But that's not just on him though, No, I know, you know, but like that relationship never gave you the chance. Well, no, And that's where it always felt very unfair. It's like I didn't get to be the wife that I would have loved to have been. Having said that, I think it's also where I go to We just maybe weren't as compatible and we moved quick obviously, And.
I don't know anything about that life.
It was just toxic kind of from the beginning. Yeah, well can who can be their best selves if they're in a toxic relationship? Well, I remember saying that to you.
Do you remember the day that I told you I was like, I really think you all are going to end up being really good friends, Like I would watch you interact so well as friends. But there was the things that really I felt like mattered on the marriage front, Like the non negotiables were just never there. It was like every time you could gain a little bit of trust back, like a little bit of like the roadback,
it just got scooped out again. And it was like, there's just at some point it's not sustainable, or it becomes sustainable, but both people have to become completely unhealthy to work inside of it. And I was watching you go, I don't want to become unhealthy. I was watching him continue to repeat, and then I felt, and this is interesting, This is the compassion side I have for him, is I felt like he was doing everything he could do to play the character he needed to play, but he
wasn't taking the time to actually learn himself. Oh yeah, So then it was like he was giving the right answers, or he was saying the right things, or he was doing the check ins, but like the two versions of him could never merge and like have a safe place to land even in his own body.
Yeah, I think, but you he'd agree with that piece too, and same, you know, I'm like, I trust you, I didn't trust you. I'm saying I trust you, I don't
trust you. So it's it's same. And I think with this book too, I will say what I'm most excited about is the how it ended up, because again, when I started the book, I was very angry, I was very bitter, and there was a lot of things in there that through the work with Amy and just you know, healing and growing and learning, I took a lot of stuff out because I'm like, it doesn't it's not about him, And that's my most excited piece of it, but also
it's my most fearful piece of this week in book released, because I don't want anyone to make this.
Book about them.
There could be someone in this book that makes it about them and we'll say things or and it's like, this book has actually nothing to do about you or any of my exes. It's all about the stuff that like, I've looked in the mirror and I'm doing things differently and I'm learning and I'm growing and I'm trying, you know, to do better at this. So that's like my excitement, but also my like fear too that someone's gonna try and take it like I'm talking bad about them. I'm like,
it has nothing to do about you. Well, these are my stories, my experiences, and it has nothing to do with it. You might have contributed to my story, but this book is not about you. It's about how I had to look in the mirror and face the fact that I was repeating really toxic patterns over and over and over again, and that when people live an offense, though, they're going to be offended no matter how you word it. If you're a person that lives an offence, you will
take everything personal. And so that is more about them than about you.
For sure.
Is there anything specific you can think about in this book that you're just nervous for it to be out there, Whether it's a behavior of yours that you're putting out there or something that has happened that you know you haven't talked about, or is there just anything that you're just you're nervous about.
Yeah, the night that I talked to Miles because it's such a touchy subject and I don't and I got asked about it in an interview and I forgot to even I was going to text to me like did that come out? Because it's such a I talk about how I pulled the case, my gun case from my drawer. I had no intent of committing suicide. It was just there and I grabbed it as like it was just
I was in a cry for help. And I don't I can't even explain why I grabbed it or but it was just I was I was never going to intend. I wasn't suicidal and a nuts and I can't. I mean, I for people that are, I'm so sorry and I
can't even imagine the pain that you go through. I think in that moment, that was just a cry for help to myself, like because I just wanted the noise to stop from the media and the trolls and the it just but I would never have taken my life, So that's just like for me, I just want that to That's just it was just touchy and I didn't know if I wanted to put it in there, but it was a moment of like I hit.
My rock bottom and it was.
Just there and I just screamed at it, and I think it was that was my way of like get help.
I mean, that's powerful.
Is there anything that you wrote that you maybe wish you weren't so honest about because your kids will potentially read this later on in life.
I took it out.
Good for you, God Creamer, look at you go, because it wasn't those things weren't important. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because I always do. It's important to my story and I keep that in therapy. So there are things that happened that they don't ever need to know about. We know about it. I know about it, My therapist knows about it. Y'all know about it. Nothing else has to be said about it. That's right, well done, Bief. But I'm excited and I really hope this book helps people, and I just, uh, yeah,
I'm I'm I'm I'm proud of it. I'm excited about it, and I'm very much looking forward to the next.
Chapter because a big chapter.
It was just a year, but I've learned again so much since and we'll continue to and obviously we'll chat about it on wind up, but obviously there Uh. I thought it was important to have Mike come on because you know, he we have not spoken publicly about this or anything, and I just thought it was only fair to let him have a space to be able to talk and hopefully we can mend some feelings and emotions.
But let's take a break, y'all, maybe go in the other room, let Mike come back on the couch, and then then we'll have you guys back on in a little bit to chat.
Sounds good. You guys feel good about that.
We feel present.
Okay, right, okay, guys's take a break and we'll get Mike Cousin on the podcast. Everyone, welcome Mike Cousin back on the podcast.
What's up?
How does it feel to be back in the wind down.
The new and improved studio we got here? It's good. It's like riding a bike. I guess. Actually, I will say, yeah. I wasn't nervous until like this morning, really yeah, because I know we had talked about it. This has been a couple of months kind of in the making. I was like, Nah, I'm good, I'm good. I'm good. In this morning, I was like, I don't know if it's the odderall or coffee.
But.
Or maybe the emotions, or maybe just the fact of being behind a microphone or even saying anything for the first time in two and a half years.
Has it been two and a half years since we've podcasted.
Yeah, let's see what mon month.
Are we in?
It's October twenty three.
So we've been divorced for April twenty twenty.
Twenty one, so it's about like ten.
Emotionally, I think dog ears like it's not.
People can't see me. But it's not just my beard that probably makes me look a little older. It's like a few more wrinkles, a few more grays, even less hair in my head.
Is that possible?
I don't know, we.
Know what like do what do you think was it?
Is it?
Yeah, just kind of like being behind a mic again or is that the is that the the the energy or the nervousness that maybe came in this morning.
Yeah, it was more about just being behind the mic again over whatever we're going to end up talking about. Because you know, like you and I have mentioned before to ourselves, you know, this was ours for a long time and we have a we you know, did a lot on this show. So yeah, I was like, man, you know, brings me back a little bit. There's a big part of me that misses this aspect.
Yeah, wind down or being behind a doing because I will say you were I remember when I started originally and then you came on I'm like, we and this
is something we though it was hard. We enjoyed doing the lighter episodes together, and you were really good behind the microphone and you're a great interviewer and something where it was hard when you did leave because I don't have that innate ability or quality to be able to interview like you've interviewed guests, like you're just really good at asking questions.
I appreciate that. I mean, I think there's, like any team doing something, we just complimented each other. Well, you know, we just did in a lot of different ways, especially when it came to professionally. So yeah, I think, yeah, I appreciate that. There is I miss both the wind down because even the tough episodes were a lot of growth, a lot of people that got something from it, as difficult as it might have been for us personally or emotionally.
But even since, you know, twenty eighteen when we started doing it together, feels like a lifetime ago because now everywhere you look, ever, everybody has a podcast. Yeah, right, So it's just it's such an oversaturated market where we benefited from being towards the forefront of of the timeline that is now podcasting especially with TikTok and everything. It's
just SoundBite after SoundBite after SoundBite. So yeah, I missed. Yeah, I missed podcasting in general, and I miss us doing it together.
Can I ask a question about our podcast?
Sure?
Before and then I want to bring someone on that might make you feel back at home, But I think, well, and we got and I don't want to again. I want to respect the space that we're in, and I love the space that we're in. So I don't want to talk too much about the past of certain things,
but I do. I remember when we got divorced, a lot of it was, you know, saying that we wish we didn't share as much on this podcast, and so I kind of thought, well, if we didn't have this platform, then maybe we still would have been married and it wouldn't have been our demise. And I fought with that
for a really long time. And I blame myself for having this podcast so much so that I wanted to quit the podcast because I felt the blame of I'm the reason that you know, this all continued and stuff because you felt like you had to be a certain version or we kept telling the stories and it was in tabloids and so you know, hearing you say you missed it, it kind of in a way goes that makes me feel a little better because for so long I thought I was it was my fault that we got
to this place because of how open we ended up being. And I know we regretted some episodes that we did, but that wasn't the total demise.
Then, I guess, No, I wouldn't say, yeah, I'm sorry to hear that you put that so much of that on you. Yeah, the idea of the idea of our marriage feeling like it became a business. And then yes, the narrative of me always being the bad guy or always feeling like the bad guy, or the interview or talk show or a guest is like it always came up and yeah, that is that wears you down. It would wear down anybody. But by no means was it the demise. Did it help? No, But it's did it
play a factor. I'm sure in some capacity, you know, talking about stuff to nauseum. Yeah, maybe it wouldn't have been the healthiest thing to do on such a platform, but I don't think I think the outcome is what it was supposed to be.
Yeah, I was trying to find that. I had a quote in the book where I said, you know, I was always cast as the eternal victim and you were always cast as the perpetrator, two roles that never truly embodied who we were, nor did we ever get to overcome those.
Yeah, no, you're right, And even if it was, no matter what we talked about or said, those were going to be the narratives written. Yeah, no matter what.
Well, let's have someone pop on right now that I would like to say hello, might have a few questions.
Man, now I really feel back at home.
Oh man, it's good to see you, Mike, it really is. It's good to see you Mark a long time. And you were always very good to me, very nice, very generous, always had a really good time back in burback.
I missed those days, thank you, me too.
Were fun days. So we had a lot of fun.
We did. We did have a lot of fun.
It was it was always weird for me because when there were problems and issues and I was like, it seems like a nice day to me. Yeah, obviously I'm not there with you guys. That's too bad because it looks like a comfortable room you're in right now.
It is. It is Jana's new house or new studio in the house.
It's very well done, it's cozy.
Have you listened to this show at all since you left? And I know that that might be a weird question, but especially the episodes that were kind of about you or the marriage, or the problems or the you know, the post chat on that.
Nope, not one minute. Now, I will say it was actually this morning because I know Jana. She had mentioned to me that she teased the idea of me coming on to the show a couple months ago. So I found that episode and I listened to like the last fifteen minutes just to kind of get an idea maybe where I'm walking into right just a little bit, so I'm not completely blindsided in any kind of way, which you know, Jana and I have talked about some things
before this, But that was it. That's all I've listened to.
And you've done.
Sorry, Mark, you've done I think in the beginning, and I can understand this. I was trying to find the balance. It was really hard, and you were getting people sending you so many stories where you're just like, stop sending me stories, and to me, you're like, stop talking, and I'm like, I don't like, I'm just trying to cope, and this is that's the only way I knew how right right, And I think that was that caused a lot of rift between us.
It did very much. So so it would, Yeah, it would get to the point mark where people would even maybe even people that weren't necessarily close in my life, just maybe acquaintances or some kind of light of friends would send me things or whatever, and I'd be like, look, guys, I don't care, so you shouldn't care. I was like us, me sitting on this or letting it affect me isn't going to help either jam or I or more importantly the kids. So I know China better than pretty much
anyone else to this point. So I know she had to go through what she had to go through, and I did.
It my way back to whether or not wind Doown
was destructive, a destructive element in your relationship? Is there any Is there a positive to that in the sense that it brought you to together for a week for an hour a week and forced you to talk through some things that maybe a typical husband and a wife don't sit down and talk through for an hour a week, some of the fights you were having or whatever it was, there any part of that that was helpful because otherwise I think husbands and wives tend to kind of hide
sometimes when things aren't going great from each other.
Yeah, I think that's exactly it mark where it's almost maybe it even accelerated our timeline to not be together. Where to your point, if we didn't have that platform or the questions arise or whatever, or we probably wouldn't. We would just kind of put on a smile and feel like everything's okay, or act like everything's okay. Where it did force us into some difficult conversations that we would later have to go home and discuss and kind of unpack and talk about or bring up in couple's
therapy or whatever it might be. So, yeah, that's why, you know, I don't think. I don't look at wind down as necessarily the demise. It just accelerated what was inevitably going to happen.
What's your life like these days? I haven't spoken to you in years, how's it going? What's your day to day? Yeah? I appreciate you asking. My day to day is literally work and my children. That's if I'm not with the kids. I'm working.
If i'm i'm with the kids, then I'm just with them. So I'm in the I'll talk about it more later, but I'm in the health insurance industry as an independent advisor, and I'll just say what to anyone else hearing that or listening to be like insurance like gross? Like who likes to talk about insurance? Right? Like no one really cares until you need it. And sure, what I enjoy
about it is just like anyone in life. And I feel like, especially men, we like to have a purpose, right, a professional purpose outside of anything else being a husband or a father or whatever it may be. And so I enjoy being an asset and that's what I am to people now. I'm an asset to people who need help with something that it's a foreign language to most people. Most people don't understand how insurance works. They know that they need it, but they don't know the ins and outs.
So I kind of look at myself as a translator where I'm able to take this information translate it for you so you better understand it and find you a plan or policy that works for you and your family.
And where can people find you?
Mike i'll have Janna post something, but I have an email and I created an Instagram dun Du purely for this. It's not a personal Instagram. It's because I do give people my personal cell phone number as clients because I
come with their policies. I'm there to help them through the lifetime of their policy and so I'm not just going to give out my personal phone number to anybody, but it's you know, if people are interested, especially with open enrollment coming up November first to December fifteenth, I'm available via email and direct message on Instagram to help people navigate that crazy world of insurance.
Insurance is annoying because you just pay them money over and over, over and over and over again. Then when you do need them, they try to screw you over. Now, I think that's for people's impression of insurance.
Agreed, And that's what a lot of it is, especially government based plans. And I primarily work with private market plans which aren't regulated by the government and follow the same kind of rules, so you're able to get more bang for your buck. And it's actually it's a lot easier when you're working with something that's a superior product, right, no matter what it is. If you work with something that you know is just better, it's a lot easier to do for a living right where I don't Some
people call this insurance sales. I don't really call it sales. I call it I'm literally an advisor. If you need help, I'll advise you. And sometimes I can't help you, and that's okay.
We'll give them your email and then we'll take a break and we'll get back on with some more stuff.
All right. My email is Michaelcousin dot agent at gmail dot com. And the Instagram is just I can't believe I'm even saying my Instagram. It's so weird. M underscore costing.
Can we follow each other?
You'll have to teach you how to do that.
I'll teach you.
All right, We'll take a break and be right back. Okay, Mark, you're still.
With us, still here, ready to go?
Yeah, any questions.
I have a lot of questions, and these are some questions that you might not want to answer, and that is totally I totally respect that. I always have you guys have never given me parameters, and I love that about you. And I don't remember you ever telling me to take a question out of the show.
But I'll do it.
Whatever you guys tell me to do, I'll do it. First of all, well, you're working in health insurance. You're working is there. I'm sure if you had the ability to take an erase or to google you would. Do you find that that follows you around, like you interviewed for a job and they say, oh, you're that Michael Cousin. And if you found that notoriety a negative or maybe even a positive.
That's a really great question because that was a huge concern when I started to look for work that first year twenty twenty one. I just took time for myself. I was like, I'm either with the kids or I'm traveling, I'm doing stuff. I'm just away. Then I did some stuff with a buddy with the startup company, and then you know, I've been insurance for a while now, and
it was there. And admittedly there have been moments where, you know, people always think everything's a scam, right, And so whether I call somebody who I've is a lead that comes across my desk and I get their information, I call them and maybe I see that they looked at my LinkedIn because they think I'm not real or they look at whatever in my fear because then if that person's like, oh, we're going in a different direction
and they don't give me a reason why. Now, this has only happened like once one time in the insurance where that I can really remember where I was worried. I was like, you know what, I bet this guy looked at my information. If he looked at my LinkedIn, he probably googled me. And I was like, oh, I don't want to work with this guy. And so that has there have been moments where that's come up where my insecurity around it has affected my confidence to a degree.
Now those moments are few and far between, especially now they but it still exists and that's just part of my story. Now. If anyone had the balls to even to bring it up to me, I to welcome that conversation.
And I think too not to interject with this question. This is something that I really wanted to get across too with us is especially with like the book coming out. I wanted him to know that they might grab a few of the stories, right. But why I also wanted him on this week was important because I don't want that to be the story. I want how far we've come, and I've you know, you've you shared with me a story about someone that you were potentially going on a
few dates with. The very last thing that I would want, because I don't have a pretty past and background, and I have people that still say, oh, well you a couple of years ago, or you were this, or you were that. I don't want to ever be defined by a headline because I know that I've changed and I've grown, and I've I'm a different version of myself than I was from my twenties to two years ago, and so that's not fair for my ex to have that same always headline or that for people to go back to now.
A lot of times, yes I always have to defend the marriages, and I have to defend yes I was controlling, and yes I was manipulative and like. But now it's not so much defending. It's just my past and I'm not that person anymore. And I think that's where he's kind of gotten to too, where it's now just your past. But it's not an easy thing to have to have on a Google search for both of us from our past, and that's where I just I wanted to in a
way because of where we're at now. Protect the fact that you don't deserve to be defined by your past, nor does anybody, nor does Rachel. You Gutell from being Tiger was this mister, Like, you know, people should not be defined by mistakes that they've made in their past.
For sure, And I appreciate that. And I think you know that when you feel that professionally versus personally, because I've anyone that I've dated or or had some time spent some time with in a romantic way. That's one of the first things I bring up where I'm like, what questions do you have? I'm like, look, you obviously know something. If you don't, then you will, you will. Yeah, where I just nip it in the butt. I'm just like, hey,
what questions do you have? And whatever question they have, I answered, like just openly and honestly, because if it is someone that's going to judge you forward or hold it against you, especially in a personal relationship, and I'm like, okay, you're not. You don't need to be a part of my life. So that's been that's been a simpler part. It's definitely been you know what Mark's say in terms of like work has been the only area that I
still have maybe some insecurity around it. And you know, with the book, I remember Janna even asked me Mark before I.
Hated that conversation would be more than anything. I remember it was at the soccer field and I hated it. I hated every second and it happen that conversation with them.
What about you writing the book?
Well, the thing was was.
After our book deal went away, right, I obviously asked for another deal. And you would have hated the first.
Version, Oh for sure. If this book was written in twenty one, well it was, it was, it was published in twenty one.
If it was published in twenty one, and it had been a different.
Story, a whole different story.
And through again realizing that it's not about him or there or another X or this X. It's all about looking in the mirror and realizing my patterns and the things that I had to work on. And even so some of the stories I'm like, damn it, like I don't want that to be want that to ruin this, And so I've really tried to. I skimmed it down as much as I could to respect where we're at relationally and our new what I've been saying kind of
in interviews, is we have a new relationship. Our marriage died, but we have now formed a new relationship, and it's just this is a better relationship, but we have more, we have a Yes, it's a new relationship. And so I when we when I finally agreed that, Okay, I'm
going through this book and this is happening. I remember seeing at the soccer fields and we were talking and I said, and I got a book coming out, And I just tried to because I just I didn't because I'm like, god, we were so good, because we were so bad post divorce for a good year at plus so we got to a good place.
And I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want I don't want that energy again.
Yeah, And even since you first told me that you're writing a book or that a book was coming out, I was skeptical. But even since then, which was probably what last fall, like a year ago that you first told me, things have evolved so much from last Fall to this fall or even you know, Jenne asked me now that it's published and stuff, She's like, you know, before it comes out, do you want to read it? And I told her. I was like, no, because I trust I trust our relationship more now than I ever have,
and I believe Janna. What her point in her narrative is is if I read it, is there are there things that would bother me? Absolutely sure? Right, we all know there's three versions of the truth. Mine her is in the truth, right, so are they?
Even the acknowledged truth might bother you because you're not in that place.
You're not going to love the launder room scene.
Right, And I don't you know, I don't even remember what that.
Is exactly because we were so just right, Yeah, it.
Was a whole different lifetime almost ago. And so for me, I was like, because I thought about I was like, why read it and then rehash in my own work and journey rehash some of these things emotionally and internally and feel any kind of way towards Janne where it's like, I'm again, I trust her, I know where her heart is, and anything in there I know doesn't necessarily directly have
to do with me more. It's just her story, right, And unfortunately the tabloids or the publications or whoever is going to still write stuff about this might try to attach me to this, but it has nothing to do with me, and I trust that now. If she had published it two years ago, that'd have been a different story. But I just I don't care. I support her, I'm proud of her, I'm happy for her. But whatever it says about in regards to maybe referring to our marriage,
it is what it is. There's no point in me occupying time in my heart with it.
Is there anything that you'd want because you've never actually had like a statement. Is there anything you'd want to say that like?
Is your.
Not really, because I've kind of prided myself on not saying anything at any point and just allowing time to take care of this. Now, with that said, I'll just say how grateful and appreciative I am of our situation now, because if it weren't for both of us, we wouldn't be here in this moment. How well we coparent, how much we how much love we have for one another, and how much respect we clearly have for one another
now compared to before. And we all know everyone listening, Mark, you know, we both know many married couples or divorced couples that are just miserable that it is just supervised drop offs or like court things or this or that, and it's just it really has made me appreciate you and our situation tremendously because it could be so, so worse.
And it's good that you know in twenty three, putting this book out in twenty three, you know the spirit is coming from, you know the relationship you have, you know where her mindset is. Two years ago, it would have been more of a venomous situation, correct of how war was still going on. But also I'll also say this, I have many regrets in my life, my relationships, my parenting,
whatever it is. We've talked about them on here. If I had to read a book about my regrets that I have, the times in my life that I wish I'd done differently, I mean, nobody would want to read that book. So I understand that even if it is one hundred percent accurate what is being described, I still want no part of it because I'm not there anymore. And I hated the way I behaved in that situation.
Whatever it is you brought up dating so and the Google world following you around and all that stuff, and the questions that they're allowed to ask ask you. I wonder, how are you seeing anyone right now? Can I ask that?
Yeah, I am seeing someone right now?
Is trust an issue there? I mean it's I think the infidelity.
What happened, Oh, things change, things evolved, Okay, news.
It go ahead. Mark.
Well, I'm just saying the infidelity is going to come up anything she knows anything about you publicly, it's going to be that she can ask you all the questions she wants. But I feel like she's going to have that in the back of her mind. And is that going to be a problem. How do you address that? How do you establish that we're starting fresh, this is a new situation. I'm going to earn that trust.
It's not even about me earning the trust because people that I've dated, I've had, you know, a couple relationships and people I've seen over the last couple of years. And for me, I've been very upfront again, like I said earlier, like if you have any questions, asked now, right, let's clear all this out so you don't then moving forward.
It's look, just because of my past is known, doesn't give you the right to not trust me, right, That's not fair And I won't be in something that I'm not trusted now, I'm not naive and saying that I have a clean slate compared to maybe someone that you don't know everything about. So I'm understanding of that. But all I asked is like, Hey, if you have something come up with you, come talk to me. Don't be passive with me, don't say little comments, don't make little hints.
I can't read your mind. If something is going on, tell me so we can talk about it. And so those moments you know have come up in relationships and everything, and that's fine, but it's I don't have a big tolerance for being things being said in a way that I can tell they don't trust me. Where I'm just like, okay, Like, if you're going to be like this already, I see where this is going. I've been down this road. I've done nothing to give you, specifically, any reason not to
trust me. So let's just call a spade a spade and we'll end it here. So that's one thing I've been very very forthright with and on the front end of things with anyone that I've seen or dated, is you're going to know where we stand. And I don't really have a big tolerance for this passive aggressiveness alluding to things, just come out and say it, And I just can't be in something where I'm not trusted if.
I didn't, I think the best way to get that clean slate and correct me if I'm wrong is to point to the treatment you've been through for your addiction issues. I feel like that's one way of establishing Look, that was me, then, this is what I've been through since, this is who I am now. Do you feel like that is completely behind you? Do you feel like you're not not cured? But do you feel like the treatment has put you in a good place to be a good partner and to be a better person.
Yeah, for sure. And that's a question that's come up, especially in the earlier phases of all of this, when things were a lot more prevalent. Is sex auted questions, sex addiction questions. And what I'll tell people is like, do I believe it's a thing? Absolutely? I know it to be. I know too many guys are still very You're close with guys that I was in program with. For me personally, what I experienced once Jana and I got divorced, if you would have told me before her
and I got divorced. Hey, Mike, you're going to be divorced in three months. What do you think you're going to do. In all honesty, I've been like, I'm in the streets, I'm doing everything and everything I want to do. I'm having fun. For the first two months, I didn't do anything right. I didn't go out, I didn't sleep with anybody. I wasn't even we talked about here watching
porn like nothing. And that time because I didn't want to emotionally run back to things that I would in the past, where like whether it's stuff with Jana and I or even before Jana or whatever, where it's it's like, all right, i'm feeling sort of some sort of way, I'm out, I got to check out, let me go sleep with somebody, let me go watch for and let
me eat whatever, right, because that was my thing. And so that like two months span was the first time where I was just like, I don't need I'm feeling all of these feelings, but I don't need this. And so it was it was a whole evolution and kind of learning process for me. And it wasn't like a thing that I just made a decision for myself it's like, Oh, I'm to your point where I'm cured. I'm no longer no longer going to twelve step meetings, I'm you know whatever.
It was through consultation with my then sponsor, is, through consultation with my therapist, and just an ongoing process of talking about things where for the first time, I wasn't like lying to myself right, I wasn't trying to sit here and overcompensate to like prove something to Janna or make my self look better than I was because of things in our marriage or relationship, or my own shame
or insecurity or whatever it was. It was just me living with me, accepting my life at that point and just understanding it's like the first time, I'm not running to something else to fix this.
In treatment, were you able to get to the route? Do you think of where this comes from? Because I feel like that's when I've looked at the problematic behavior from my past, it's really helped me to get to the why of it. And you don't need to get into the why. But do you feel like you were able to figure out the why and the root?
Yeah? I think once because towards the end, you know, I just wanted to blame everything on Janna unfairly, right, turfault if you didn't keep getting on me. You know, I'll be fine if you didn't do this, if you didn't do that, because that was just the place that I was at where now I could just yeah and treat me. And through all the years I learned more of kind of a root of things, and I was able to just kind of sit with that and accept it. And then I was like, well, I don't have this
thing right in front of me to blame. It was like I used Janna as like my scapegoat to blame it all on her. Well, if I blame it on her, it's not my fault. Well that's bullshit. So yeah, I think it was just that time afterwards, just I was able to focus more on just that original root of things and just kind of live there and deal with it.
I've never heard you say that, I do appreciate that for the girl that.
Blames herself or doesn't feel good enough, what would you say to that person if she's having someone that has continuously cheated on her, that carries that it was my fault, Like, you know, is my fault that now they're all healthy and moved on, and.
It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with that person because like in us, it had everything to do with me, just like you can take it back to what we were talking about earlier. Was this podcast an issue because we talked about things and all of that. Sure, again, do those things affect it? Yes, maybe we're certain ways that Jana was towards me or things that she said or did. Did it affect me? Yes, well, I'm a human. It affected me emotionally, but that's not
why I made the terrible decisions that I made. It was because of me. Period.
I feel like that's narcissism in a lot of ways. That's the definition of that. Like I can do whatever I want, whenever I want, I'll never pay a price for it, and if I do pay a price for it, it's someone else's.
Fault for sure.
Yeah, I think a lot of us have been down there, whether we want to admit that or not.
Absolutely.
We talked about two different ways. This is going to follow you around, and this is a question for both of you. The employment relationships, the kids. The kids are seven and four, They're not always going to be seven and four. They're going to be on the internet. They're going to find out this stuff that they don't already know about. How are you going to deal with that, both of you? Because honestly, Jenny, you brought it up earlier, the stuff in your past that you're not so proud of.
Mike's got these issues, the issues with the both of you. I think that's going to be some tough conversation someday. Are you going to try to nip that in the bud before they find it themselves or are you just going to address it when their friends bring it up? You know, I think that's going to follow you around in that way as well.
I think something incorrects me if I'm wrong, But I think something where we've always kind of said that we would This is when we were still married, but we said that we would sit them down before and be like, well look at us now. And I think it's kind of the same thing where it's so look at us now. Something has happened in our past. Mommy and Daddy had some you know, hard times, but we're such good friends now and we can all do things together and just manage it on the front end, right.
Yeah, I don't I don't think that's changed changed for me at all. My whole goal, Like even if you take the last two and a half years, the driving force of me not saying anything was was the kids. I was like, I don't want for me, I don't want my kids to from this point on to see me say anything negative about their mother, right, and and
that that was my motivating force every single day. And now it's the same thing it were like when Jane save when we're married, it's the same where there by the time we were fortunate that they were young enough during like the heat of all of our past, where by the time they get of age, they're going to know us as mom and dad, like in the capacity that we are now, where.
Jace doesn't even remember you living. Like the other day I was watching a video and he's like, why was Daddy here? And I was like, that was our house maybe, And I was like, oh my gosh, it doesn't even remember that we lived in the same home together.
Yeah, so little, yeah, they're not going to know any e. J Olia will know a little bit of a difference, but even I mean so yeah, I don't even know how to answer that. Mark. I just think when the time comes, we'll know.
But we've learned to love our kids more than hate each other. Right, we just continue that.
We love them so much that we're pretty confident that when that day and never comes, that it's not going to be as big of a deal as maybe we thought it would be.
Yeah, and well, you know, we'll talk about co parenting and some things that we've done later on in the next in the next next.
Oh, good tease, And maybe there's a teachable moment there. You know, there's a you're going to make mistakes in life. You need to own up to them. You know, there's no one's perfect. You see your parents as perfect. When they realize they're not perfect, there's a lesson that we learned there. I think they don't have to be either, and when they make a mistake, they can live up to it. All right, Yeah, okay, one more. When you look back at your marriage, Harry goes, is it you
know it didn't work out? Or is it I we had a good thing and I f that up? Or is it I f that up? But I've I've improved myself. I've worked on myself and I'm in a better place now. When you look back at your marriage. How do you see it?
Right? I look at it and maybe this is just for my own like processing, so I don't live in the past, but I look at it as you know what, we didn't work out for a multitude of reasons, right, majority that I'll take blame for, you know, I'll fall on that sword, I'll die in that hill that I you know, I I've owned my stuff. But ultimately we
just we weren't going to work out. And I think because of the relationship and respect and really blossoming friendship that Jane and I are able to have now confirms that for me where it's like, okay, part of why we're able to be where we're at now is because we're just like, you know what, at least again, for me, it wasn't going to work out.
Is it fair to say there was a toxicity with you two, regardless of infidelity? At times.
It's hard and I write about this in the book, that we didn't really get to have anything but the like For example, in the book, my therapist is like, let's be honest, take away the cheating. You didn't really like them, And I'm like, wait, what She's like, there were so many other things that he didn't meet your
needs and you weren't meeting his needs. But the cheating was always the reason for well, why I acted this way and why you acted that way, And so we didn't really get to have a true we didn't really get to see what our marriage could have looked like really without the infidelity, because it played apart from the get yeah, And I think that piece is where I just kind of go, I'll never know what it would have looked like because I think that toxicity came in
with the distrust and the resentments on both sides, and you know, it's.
Hard to hear.
Even being to super truthful, just like that's just what it was going to be. And it's like I hate that because I wish that, you know, it could have been. There's so many years of so much just yeah, the toxicity and the fighting and the stress and all the I mean, there's just so many years of that. It's like, I wish you had it just if you knew that let it go. But we didn't know that in the moment, right, So we were both trying to like fight for it.
So it's we weren't given it. I don't think an ample chance to have no for a marriage.
No, And that's where you can play the what if game all day. And that's where I'm just like the fact because I can't. Yeah, I have nothing to go back on it and to be like, well if this didn't happen, There's just so much at this point. It's like it's an emotional mental impossibility to put ourselves in a situation without all of the things that come with it.
Yeah.
Last question, is Jenny getting married too soon? Oh?
What a good question. Why are people saying that?
I mean, I said that was your first told.
When I told him, he's like, oh, for fun, He's like he like came off the zoom.
He's like, chan on. I was like, I know, I know.
Here's what I'll say again, I know Jana better than pretty much anybody. I know. Jana loves love or loves love. On paper, is it too soon? Sure, whatever, But I love Alan a lot, like the utmost respect for him, and so it's no one else is able to experience or witness what I am able to write. So yeah, on paper, people would be like, yeah, it's too soon. But from the moment I met Alan, you know, everything
has just been respectful understanding and I see why. And I was teasing Jana at soccer the other day because I was like, Hey, Jana, how does that make you feel You're not the prettiest in the relationship anymore? Because that guy is handsome? Okay? But no, I just I see the fact that talking about Alan is what's making
me emotional right now. It's just it's really hilarious, but it's it's literally what I you know, two and a half years ago when we got divorced, what I would hope this could become is coming to fruition because ultimately I knew Jana was going to find someone before me. I just knew, and this is what I imagined it could be like, and it's actually being that where everybody
is winning, everybody wins. Jana has a man that is incredible and loving and respectful and truthful from all intents and purposes that I've seen that I've experienced, right, so she has what she's looking for. I have someone that I can trust around my kids, that I see taking really good care of the mother of my children, which is all I care about as their father. And then it's someone who also accepts the relationship of all of us because he's divorced himself and he understands and so
he's been through that. And so it's the fact that I can feel as welcome in their home as I do, where I can just walk into their house. It's a little things like that. I'm like, that doesn't go overlooked for me, because he would have every right to be, like, hey, Jana, Like, I'm not comfortable with Mike hanging around after he drops off the kids, where the three of us will sit there and just kind of talk in the kitchen. I'm
not comfortable with Mike, you know whatever. He would be in his right to do that, but it's not that way. It's a very uniform thing, and so and so for that reason, I personally don't think it's too soon because I see them and it makes me happy that Jana has that and that my kids have that.
It's a really happy ending through a difficult story. Thank you guys for having me on. It's great to see you.
Mike. You too great to be on the show.
Thank you.
I could do this all day, all right, Well, thank you, Well maybe we'll we'll do some more later on in the near future. But thank you Mark for coming on. And we're gonna do a part tow you coming up. Next episode will be the Girls.
Let's stay tuned
M hm.