Show Me Your Narcissism

Wind Down with Jandon Kraner and Michael Coffin and I'm.

Her Radio podcast special guests Sarah Gretzky.

Hello, Hello, Hi honey.

I haven't seen you in forever. So excited to catch up a lot wind down, tell me everything. It's still weird, by the way, looking over and seeing your engagement ring.

Is it? It is?

When when we were kind of catching up in the hallway earlier, I.

Was like, oh, this is weird. Did it catch your eye? It did?

Yeah?

I tried a red color. I'm not loving it.

I feel like now when you have a ring on your hand, you can't like do certain colors, and Red's just not happening right now. It's okay, I love it. It's all right, but I love you, I know. So what's going on? Plans?

Oh my god? What's going on? A lot?

Making more traveling so much. Yeah, we've made We've made some moves.

Dress.

Oh yeah, dress is done. I got a wedding planner thrilled. Couldn't be happier. She They've done a lot, like everything.

Did you pick the band?

Oh yeah?

Band video photo there? Did you get my picks with the bridesmaid's dresses? No to you to me, Yeah, I texted you because you sent me you like, which one do you like? And I said the top? Oh yeah, yeah, Oh Sorryry, I thought you meant you sent yeah unclear. I cannot decide on the color wardrobe change.

Oh yeah it's Sarah.

I mean I'm just making sure.

Yeah, I think just for like dancing reasons. I'm a dancing queen.

I can't be bothered by like a train and a so but no, I cannot decide on the color. Okay, like in general, well, what's the color of the wedding?

Unclear? I cannot decide.

Didn't you just want like black and white?

Yeah?

But then it's like is that too boring? And then it's like classy? I know, everyone keeps saying that super classy and then just throw in like a pop somewhere. Well, I wanted them in white, like I wanted all the bridesmaids and white.

I love.

They were like not happening, none of the oh I'll shoup'm like cards.

I just thought it would be so because I wanted to be like Heaven, like I just want.

To be so like yeah, and just the consensus was a no, why why? I think they were just like I know, but they're like, really, bitch, we're not trying to stand up in white next to you while you're in white.

You know, it's not like the most Well.

They also had dresses like tailor made to like their figures.

Yeah, doesn't everybody. You don't buy dress off the rack and not get it tailored some correct.

No, my dresses fit a little differently, like on purpose. No, I want And that's the thing is, I was like, I want them to look good. It's a vibe, Like it's a whole vibe.

They're part of it.

So I'm like, I don't need them showing up looking like Frumpleston, like I need it to. I want them to look chic and sexy. Definitely don't do red hat. What about black with a white embellishment? Black is like leading, but I think a simple black would be really pretty. White tuxes, oh tie though, No, I'm in white.

Yeah, you're look contrast, right, you're in white ties and black. Bridesmaids are in black crimsmans are in white.

Oh contrast contrast.

That's kind of cool, But I kind of thought it would be like super sick if the guys were in like black velvet mmmm no no, because of like where we are and like the time, I don't know I saw you in London.

I mean, oh my god, I would.

I just saw the Ralph Lauren fashion show during Passion Week and it was just like, oh, it was like goatspy vibes.

I was just like feeling it. I just like loved it.

Belack tie, Yeah, I love it.

Oh my god, you're like the first person to be like ye a guy.

Because if I still have your tax yeah, I thought I wrote all over it.

That's my wedding. Teh.

You wrote all over his wedding. Ts I did it with the black sharpie. But how did you see it?

Because he's it was a great Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, sorry, but no I have a black I was.

Angry and I got angry with the black charp. I'm shocked, you know, I'm shocked. That's all you did. So it wasn't.

That's somehow everything all stems back to all this stuff.

Oh no, no, no, no, I know it'll be fun. It's gonna be a time. What is it, six six months?

Okay, because we already said the month. It's gonna be so fun, so fun? Can I wear black, yes, or maybe I'll wear a.

Deep green okay, love love deep emerald green.

Love.

Finally your embracing color.

I love that. Yeah, I love that too. See.

I wish I could tell everyone to wear black, because I just think that would look so cool. But I'm not going to be that bright. And everyone loves black, I know, So that's why I'm I'm like, yeah, wear it, wear it, love it.

What do women when it's a black tie event? Do women usually have to stick to black?

No?

I just feel like it means more of like a gown. It's black tie, I think means long and it just means for a guy. Yeah, because what's black tie optional that a guy just doesn't have to wear a tie? I mean, I have no idea mark, and then you're asking.

The wrong guy.

In fact, we've been invited some charity gala next month in Beverly Hills, and my wife's kind of freaking out because she has sun dresses. She doesn't have gas. Wear your nicest suit, that's what I was. Not a talx, but wear your nicest suit. So what does she she have to wear?

A long?

So confusing for a woman, Like if a man shows up in a talx, like I mean a suit.

It's like, okay, where can I go?

I can go pantsuit, I can go skirt, I can go dress, I can go gown.

I think she'd be fine. I wouldn't say a sun dress, but like an evening dress. Would like it could be short at a MIDDI, amitty is good, she can she can wear a MIDI. I wouldn't wear along for that, but for a wedding ed wear long.

Yeah MIDI. We write that down mid calf.

But then again, I think a lot of people get that confused, and I think they'll still wear the very fancy MIDI.

Yeah. I know.

I kept finding dresses that I liked for bridesmaids, but they weren't quite to the ground, and I was like, no, I can't do that.

I can't have them showing up like half assed.

Yeah, because I feel like people like, you know, Mike's going to show up and show out, you know, yeah.

Buddy, you're so excited to wear your talk.

I love where is even though it's in the closet. Even though I don't have a lot of opportunities to dress up right, I'm not I don't wear a suit every day to work. And stuff.

I love.

There's nothing more I love than buying, like a suit, like going and getting custom made suit. It's like my favorite thing to do, sitting down looking at the little fabrics and the button details and the threat details. I love it, the lapel everything, I love it.

That is hilarious. Yeah, yeah, he's like obsessed. You guys can go get like matching.

Last year for my birthday and I'm doing it. But it's like two years ago, Mike. But I was like, Jane's like, what do you want for your birthday? I was like, I just want to go get a new suit made. And she's like that's great, but why.

What are you going to do with it hanging in your closet?

Like we have enough carpet stuff and you know events carpet do.

You wear a suit? Do you could just totally change your Oh.

Yes, twenty five today. Yeah, don't forget, don't forget to get out there and vote. I feel like you got a lot of people behind you on this one.

I mean Tanya and Becca have like they're like doing sweeps on Kiss FM.

Tony is obsessed. Also, Tanya.

Any downtime she has, she's voting with other people's email addresses.

Oh god, I say, I don't have that.

Okay, I bet you doing it right now.

I bet she's actually you can see from the studio we can see her staring at her phone.

I bet she's voting.

Right.

I'm gonna start doing that.

I'll be your like Tanya like things I know. I like.

Tina's like how to be a week? And I'm like, oh, I forgot to vote this week? Have you voted for I did, like twice.

I haven't.

Oh, I can't. But it's fine.

We don't have We don't have seacrests behind us, and that's okay, it's okay. You know we have Winem we do that market Easton behind us. Well, they also do scrubbing into so we're screwed.

But it's fine.

It's all good. On the other news, I might pregnant.

What the fuck?

Wait, Tory screaming I called it.

She did, which is so weird if I didn't mention it. And now Tanya's.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, Tori, if you're pregnant in my wedding, like, what am I gonna do?

That doesn't matter?

No, but.

My gosh, I called it. You did call it, but I don't know. I'm just I'm lazy. But you have fish like a week ago. I'm so stressed. I know, so I don't. But here's the thing.

What bothers me is that Michael, Michael never got.

You should.

I'm sorry, yes, And I've.

Literally said to him, Michael, make sure you get checked, Michael, make sure you get checked. And He's like, yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it.

Yeah, And now I'm late late, I have a pit. I have a literal pit in my stomach.

I don't know, doesn't matter a couple I'm always on time.

I don't miss.

I think I lost track of how many times since I've gotten Aviseectony that Jane said, you know what, I really want another kid. I really want another kids. Like this is all your.

Fault, I know, I is giving me I needed to have another baby.

Jesus getting too old.

Oh Jesus Christ.

Here's the thing though, so Tanya still has her mouth.

From there.

I don't know. I'm just saying usually I'm very so, so why don't we know, like, why don't we figure it out?

Well? Well, so the other day we're eating casually having dinner, and I go, so I might be pregnant. She's like, I want to slushy slurpy.

And he's like okay, And I said, would you be upset about that?

Oh, she's playing games.

Not games and I and he's like, well, I wouldn't necessarily want another one.

I was like, so you'd be upset.

I said, I wouldn't. I wouldn't be upset either way. I would be upset if we had one. I wouldn't be upset if we didn't.

Well, what a blessing to have another child?

Yeah? We make I mean we make good looking babies.

I would love to I would love But I'm just saying it's worried. So he's like, when should we take a test? And so probably in the next tonight.

Yeah, I was thinking on the podcast.

Yeah, like, can now just go run and get it one now?

Next week?

Sure? Yeah, we just postmates one up. You can posts of pregnant.

I'm sure you can post he can post me anything.

Okay, hold on wait wait, did to show up now a few days late?

Yeah?

Because usually it shows you like every time I took the first one, like it was like six days before I'm a miss period is when it would always show up. So like it would show up now because I'm late. Hold on, because he's getting like this reaction makes me think that like you wouldn't be happy.

All he wants to do is party at my wedding. Okay, that's all he's worried about. He just just concerned. It's all about the wedding.

It is all about the wedding.

Oh my god.

Okay, So like let's see, you're gonna be like September you guys.

Yeah, Torri just asked if she needs an I D to get a pregnancy.

Today. I can't.

Wait.

That is, she's literally running right now to like the nearest, like can you get eleven eleven?

Because can you get one of the whole foods? I don't know. I don't think you can.

I think you can only get public CBS Walgreens' I think you need an ID for like planning pan B but I think also now you can.

Yeah, I don't know. That's that's so funny. Okay, hold on.

Here, I thought we were going to come in here talk about like just not this.

So I mean Mark, doctor Romani's gonna be on in a few minutes, and then after that, I'm thinking we send Janet to.

The bathroom one hundred and fifty percent.

I think, wep, and do.

It in here? Can we just do it?

Pour the cup over, bring the microphone.

No, go pee in a cup, bring it in here, and then put the thing so we can all just be in this together.

We need some sort of a big bowl.

Wait, but is it going to show up? I feel like you need more time. No, it would show promise because mine what.

Are you doing?

Michael?

Whoa, I'm listening.

He's picking his tooth.

Oh I thought you were.

You grabbed your bag to like throw up, and I was like, are you okay?

Are you getting naus? Yes? So, oh my god, I know. So that's the thing.

Are you going to get tested after this though, even if it's it, because I think it's still something you should see if because we're there's no lack of sex in our marriage right now.

And that's the tea. Wait, hold on, I might be confused. Why is what's the problem that he needed to get tested again?

He needed to test to see if.

You're make sure your tubes are clear?

Yeah, I got I got tested. I was supposed to get tested twice and only got tested once. I was satisfied with the results of the first one, they still wanted me to come back again.

But it's fine.

They said there were found one dead one and the one with no motility, right, so like that's good enough for me.

Yeah, And it's.

Been ten years.

This is Jane and I and we were even talking about this when it came up. I was like, you know, we've talked about on here how we go in phases with intimacy and sex and sometimes there's some some issues around it, but we have not had an issue for a while.

Oh my god, these horny.

That's definitely been like the one area that's remained the most consistent and strongest over the last That's.

Impressive, you know what.

That's pretty amazing, and like, let's say it happens. It's like this baby was made out of love.

Yeah, yeah, you know sure. I mean not that they all.

Weren't, but if you're as like connected right now, like it's kind of like I almost don't want to know though, because if it's not, then I I'm kind of excited.

I know, I kind of would love enough.

You're getting back in that chair and getting reversal, so they're getting tested.

Is the worst because you've got to bring it in.

We didn't.

You don't have to do it there, didn't know.

I actually I think I threw away the cup to bring it in. The cup made it with me from l A to the in the move to Nashville. But it's got to be warm. But I haven't used the cup.

It's got to be within thirty minutes. Yeah, I know, yes, I know. It's the worst. And then when you hand it to them, the woman gave me a look like, seriously, you're handing me this.

Like you work here at a job.

I felt like a real schmuck.

Schmuck.

Oh my god, I'm pitting out so hard, like in a good way, in an interesting way.

If it's not, would you be upset?

Did I not remember what I said? I said, if we do, I won't be upset. If it's not, I won't be upset.

So the only really upset this is going to be if it's not. If you're not pregnant, Jen.

Is going to be really disappointed.

I will say this part of me, just with the excitement that we're making us into now, is going to cause me to be a lit upset if we're not, only because like Jace, he's it's such a perfect gauge right now, nine months.

It's exhausted with two. I love you.

You find a way. No, no, I'm so tired. But it's just me, know it is Mark. You just just do it, man.

But I don't want a third.

Yeah no I don't either.

I do and so that you know what a third means, like new plane seats. You know, you're your seating arrangements.

I know.

I five is not a practical amount of people for a theme park, the.

Parks, that's good. Yeah, you have to think.

Part of the world. Jana is never going to go on a roller coaster. So if it's me and the three kids, it's two in the front, in the back, we're good. Mom's the fifth wheel.

Oh my, see that works out great for you guys.

Oh my god.

So we'll see Sarah. When are you baby making soon? I mean, like, yeah, why don't you just like hold off until next year?

I think we could do it?

No, no, no.

What's the difference between now and then?

A lot? A lot that's a long time.

Okay, I don't mean.

Baby, Sorry, sorry, I mean like maybe like, but Mike again has like a very warped sense of time because when we talked about the whole like police thing the other day and I made a poll like, hey, should Mike do police stuff? And there were so many people like he's thirty two, Like you're not, You're so young, You're so young, it's just crazy, Like he's just like it's for you would want him to believe to be a police officer.

But no, I just was saying, whatever he wants to do. Oh yeah, yeah, no, of course not but no, no, no, I'm like, whatever he wants to do, I would like because he was saying like that's something he'd always wanted to do, so I'm like, go do it.

He's like, I'm so old, and I'm like, oh no.

But that's not what's stopping me. It's again anything else that we have going on right now.

But you would be the oldest do you think amongst your like group of cadets in the.

Well?

I will say there's a guy, a childhood buddy and my dad's that served in the fire department with my dad for decades and when he retired from the fire department, he went over and became a police officer.

Just started from at the beginning to wow.

Just to kind of kind of double dip on his.

Yeah, what a nice man is He's a.

Great and he's hilarious and a great man too.

Side note, Easton, when we talked about the stuff going on with your lady, yes, your wife, our girlfriend, Leslie texted us and said, that sounds like he's a fair what's that called again, he's trying a fair dating, like trying to find like someone to She had a word for it.

I can't remember what it.

Was, but yeah, so that's something where it's like it's totally not inappropriate at all.

So she stopped a quick update.

She's like, I'm just gonna just stop responding to this dude because they don't like directly work together. It's not like it's gonna be an awkward thing at work, right, And.

He's a fair hunting. That's a fair hunting.

Listening to the podcast till east and the dude contacting his wife is crossing a major line. Not okay, the guy is married and is telling her how unhappy he's with his wife. That's called a fair hunting.

Yeah, she had.

She cut him off and he sent like a couple like weird messages like the next day. It was like because he saw her work and was like, oh wait up to this weekend, She's like, oh, nothing, just I'm feeling kind of sick. I'm just gonna stay home. And then like I think, she posts on Instagram that she and I went to Disneyland.

He's like, oh, feeling really sick.

Huh like that kind of thing.

Oh my god, you I know, like that was like upsetting and so us like Alison said, like I don't know this guy anything, Like we're not friends.

I don't know.

He's trying to make me feel like I am something that I don't. So just like stopped and uh. He kept messaging, but that was like a couple of days ago and has hasn't been lost two days.

She hit him with the block Sam delete as I say, like just blocked this time time to block hit him with the three I know.

Well, thanks for the update.

Toy is on the phone from the pharmacy.

Tory, Oh, Tory, I'm here.

Did you did you have to use your ID?

No?

So I listen you guys. I don't know how this whole thing works. Do you need to show your ID? I'm currently walking tours of Halloween candy.

Let me tell you what to do?

You Tori twenty one.

Okay, toy, just walk in, grab a pregnancy test and a bottle of water and some candy, and just leap.

I think you should.

Do you have wait, do you have a Do you have a ring? Put it on your left finger and make.

You feel so much better the amount of times I've walked in not married.

You want to know that I literally pointed with my left hand so that they could see I had some kind of gold band on my finger. Oh my god, twenty one over there, That twenty one that went over there.

The ring idea, Yeah, get to get the first response with the lines, not the ones that say yes or no.

Get the first response. Six days before.

I'm a period, I feel like I'm close.

My god, toys like, here's the loop.

There's a lot of loop there.

Next they're by the tampon.

No, I'm literally gonna have to ask her againtory.

You're a college educated woman. You can find them. Don't ask.

I love that Sarah said, get some candy words.

Well, no, you don't want it. Not then you want to let You don't want to roll up with one test.

You gotta act like you just like are stalking up, so you grab like some water because I.

Can't believe it again, and there's like fifteen people in line at the partment.

Not her.

We don't have all day toy there by the I'm trying, I'm you guys, I'm not kidding, I am looking.

Okay, they're by their tampons.

That's all first response. They're usually they actually, which.

Store are you at?

I'm a CBS.

Okay, so CBS.

They might be locked up here in LA because they're expensive.

Yeah, I'm actually thinking that because they're definitely nice.

They're like twenty five bars respect. Oh my god, you're gonna have to ask someone to unlock the thing for you.

Ask her again.

I love that the tequila and the pregnancy text and the razors are behind.

It's so annoying that.

The one three, it's like.

We got to help her.

All right, Okay, we're in action.

Good luck.

All right.

So you saying I'm gonna drink some water, but can you grab me in their smart water?

Thanks? All right?

Well to be continued finished listening to the show to see uh the real real live peing on a stick?

Are you what if we like what if you mean like in like some of so random friend, like you're not but like like Danielle's like, oh, I'll take one for fun and likes pregnant or like Torri or Tania.

The job is god, oh that would be well. So stay tuned. We're having a guest coming up before I do that.

So act Ramani is talking narcissism next.

Super excited.

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Hi, it's doctor Rominey.

How are you hey? I'm good?

Thank you. So.

You have a book coming out It's called Don't You Know Who I Am?

How to Stay Sane in an era of narcissism.

Why did you write this book?

Where was?

Where's your connection to narcissism?

So I've been working in narcissism as an area for over ten years and it was sort of one of those things I was working on quietly, and then there was an election and everybody started talking about it. But in having those conversations, yeah, there's a bigger cultural issue around narcissism, and whether it's how the president behaves or other famous people behave, or social media, it's really bled

On an airplane or at a hotel clerk.

So it seems to be something that's bubbled up into American actually global culture I'm seeing now, and it's really taking a toll on people and all of that cumulatively. I've written another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist that was about narcissism and the intimate space boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, because a lot of relationships were sort of crumbling under that. But after that book, I got a lot more questions.

My mom who's narcissist. Or it's my boss who's the narcissist.

This book takes on all of the different kinds of narcissistic relationships, but also makes us to take a really hard look at our culture and say, how are we all contributing to this?

And how are we all suffering?

Buck Ramani? At what age does it kind of transition from maybe someone just having some character defects or being just an a hole or whatever into actual full blown narcissism.

You know, I actually tell people, especially parents, I'm like, put the brakes, I calling this the.

Name until actually a person's probably.

Into the early mid twenties, until that age of personality. It's almost like a sweater that's too big for someone still kind of growing into it. By twenty three, twenty four to twenty five, you can look at someone how someone's acting and saying, yeah, this is probably going to be a pattern. I wouldn't use this word with a seventeen year old because I'm as a mother of teenagers.

I could say most teenagers are awful.

So yeah, so that's something where you eat it like okay. After that time when yeah, it's a wait and see.

Yeah, do you do you find that are women?

Is it like more men are narcissist or is it more women or do you find that to be different.

Way more men are narcissistic. I'm guessing it's probably eighty twenty to be honest with you, and I for sure the big spread is how the difference between how men and women are socialized. Women are taught to talk about their emotions, they're taught to make stronger relational ties from an early age. They're not taught to be as competitive, they're not as authoritarian. They have very different kinds of relationships with their parents. And boys are really taught to

Girls are like cool, you can cry, like cry this one out.

So we do teach them differently, we socialize them differently.

There's been a lot of talk in the media about toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is sort of a you know, I don't know, sort of a pithy way to say narcissism.

To be honest with you, but is it to catch up?

Yes, I would say, I run into narcissistic women all the time. I have a lot of men who come into my practice and say, what have I done?

Who have I married? And these women are very narcissistic. Lots of people out there had narcissistic mothers.

So I mean, I honestly think that in the next ten to twenty years, we're going to see those scales starting reading out quite a bit.

I guess, like, what really truly makes a narcissist? Though, that's what I was going to ask, Like, I might be a dumb question, but what is a narcissist?

It's a great question because I think a lot of people think narcissist is someone who's really stuck up and loves themselves. It's not, in fact, it's in fact, it's the opposite of that.

They're actually really quite self loathing.

So at the core of it, these are people who lack empathy, who are really entitled. They're really arrogant. They're constantly seeking admiration or validation. Look at me, tell me I'm great. They're really superficial. They're vain, they are very prone to rage, they're very controlling. They're also very charming, very charismatic. They're very confident, but ultimately, at the core of it, believe it or not, they're deeply, deeply insecure,

Not going to brag about it. They're going to be confident like I know, I know this, I got this.

I don't need to behave like a fool and suck all the oxygen out of the room. However, if I'm insecure, I'm going to come out punching, I'm going to come out bragging, and I'm going to get really irritable if things don't go my way.

It's the no empathy that is sort of the shocking part of it, because they truly it's not that they are selfish.

And have no empathy.

They don't really even understand what it would be to have empathy.

Is that right?

Uhh?

No, absolutely, And you nail that. That's actually really well put.

I think where a lot of people will sit in my office and say, I don't get it. Are you telling me they just don't care? And I look at them, I'm like, yeah, I'm telling you, they just don't care. Then people say, what's wrong with me? I said, nothing's wrong with you. They don't care about anybody. Again, it's the insecurity. Really don't care. They don't have empathy. And I got to be honest with you. Every week I get emails and calls from people who say I'm narcissistic.

Can you teach me how?

I gotta tell you it's hard to do as an aftermarket add on at thirty five, to be teaching people.

Stuff they should have learned when they were six.

And so, a self aware narcissist is a horrible thing to witness because they kind of realize they.

Don't really care.

That lack of empathy is what makes it so invalidating to have any kind of relationship with them.

Is it on a spectrum?

Yeah, absolutely on a spectrum. Not only is it on a spectrum, there's different kinds. Like listen, everybody, all of us have a few of those benign and narcissistic friends, like they're a little bit too instagrammy and they were a little bit too edit my pictory and a little

Definitely not someone you take your problems too.

But at the most severe end, we have malignant narcissists that almost feel like psychopaths, like they manipulate, they exploit, they coerce, they bully, they oppress, like they're really.

Really dreadful, if not dangerous people.

And then there's all other sort of your classical narcissists who's sort of like the showy, braggy, you know, charming, charismatic, kind of is the center of tension person but gets grumpy when things don't go that where people aren't noticing them. And then you have sort of that stealth narcissist, which is the covert narcissist. And these are the people who are always victims. They're like, how come nothing ever goes

Do believe that they shouldn't have to work.

Now, I'm a question. And you know, it's interesting. Jane and I talk a lot about the current events and also what's current in our relationship, and so you know, I hear a lot of talk about narcissism nowadays, obviously, and a lot of the traits that you're talking about right now, you know, And I feel these little flags coming up in my brain and I'm like, oh, I

Why I was trying to tell him that it doesn't need to make sense to you. But that's still I'm still allowed to have those feelings.

So my big question would be did you try? Did you try to understand her feelings?

Because empathy has got two pieces of Empathy is not a one way street. Okay, it's not just I get your feelings, but it's also you taking a minute and reflecting on yourself and saying, is how I'm acting now uncomfortable for her?

And because even if you were to say something.

Like you know, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm struggling with this, like with understanding this. But I can look at your face and see that you're hurt, and so I love you or care about you, whatever your feeling is for this person, I don't want you to be hurt, so how can you help me?

Help you? At this point? So it's not you may listen.

We don't always get someone else's feelings, right, I don't understand.

Sometimes when somebody.

Is I don't understand, and my clients and I they scratch on my head thinking they are what are they thinking? But I can read their faith and they're in pain. So this is real. And one of the worst things we can ever do to someone is judge their emotions because we don't.

Get to it.

It's almost like telling someone else you must be hungry. How the hell are you supposed to know that they're hungry. They're the ones it's their stomach. Let them figure it out, so you can't anticipate that. But making a good faith attempt at saying I actually don't intellectually get.

It, but I see it, so please help me because I love you.

I don't want you to be hurt. I don't want you to be hurting. I don't want you to be in pain. I want you to feel understood. We're not always going to be understood. Someone may not understand. For example, let's say somebody I don't goes through a breakup, and six months later they're still obsessing about the breakup and the relationship only lasted three months.

Everyone around them might say I don't get it.

I'd say to them, you may not get it, but this is real for them, and the best thing we can do is just be there attempt to get it. But more than anything, see that our friend is hurting, and that sometimes is all the antidote you need, and that's what can keep a relationship going. I know with my partner, he'll say, you know, honey, I don't get it, and he'll just put his arms around me and that's it and I'm good.

And why is it so hard, though, for him to like.

Do that, because I think he's trying to intellectualize it. You know, never make a feeling intellectual, because it's not it's not a thought, it's a feeling.

It's like being hungry.

Like I said, you don't know if someone else is hungry, and you have to trust in good faith that they are. And let's say you just ate an enormous meal and they say I'm still hungry.

You can't say you can't be hungry. We just ate so much. They just that they're hungry. You have to run and roll with that. So it is about trusting.

The other person, and the arrogance comes from thinking like, no, they can't be feeling that because that's only one person's experience. So it's really about stepping out of yourself and saying this is possible feeling this way.

You have to under standard. I simply need to be here to accept it. There's a difference between understanding and accepting, right.

And the thing is, ultimately I do end up getting to that point, but it is I mean literally last night, but Jana had to like walk out of the room because she was getting so frustrated that I was physically like in agony trying to comprehend, trying to understand.

It sounds he didn't need to understand. I just I didn't need him to. I was just like, that's my just say I'm sorry you feel that way. How can I maybe help you in the future or something, And it just he just physically could not do it. And I was like, I cannot hold your hand through this right now because I'm getting frustrated and I'm walking out of the room.

Right, And so that idea like and I would want to know then what happened in your childhood that understanding became so important because that goes deeper, you know, because it drives that need that somehow in your early environment with your parents or caregivers or even your siblings, there was a need to get it and that might have given you power in the family system or comfort in

Why can't you just feel it? I mean, forgive me for using sort of a I don't know, like a bit.

Of a sexy example, but it's trying to understand your orgasm. How often you say, wow, that's quite good, and I'm feeling like ramped up.

You're like, no, that felt really good. You know.

You don't try to deconstruct feelings, whether they're good ones like orgasms or eating a great meal, or they're bad ones.

You just roll with the feeling.

And I think that in a relationship with somebody's having a rough time of it, it's being in the moment with their feeling, and it could very well be that you're uncomfortable with her discomfort, and by trying to understand it, you're creating distance between you and her rather than closeness. Because you're uncomfortable, she's fine with her feeling. You're the one who's struggling.

Are certain types of women attracted to narcissistic men?

Correct?

Because I repeatedly am very attractive, So.

What is that?

What is that?

Narcissists? Almost?

I mean, I'm going to use a heterosexual paradigm here, so forgive me it, and I'm giving men men women women doesn't matter. The narcissist always gets the girl, and that's because they're more clever, they're more charming, they're more extroverted, they tell a better story, they're much better at dating.

They can be so attentive.

In the beginning that you feel like you're the only person in the world, and then once they've got your attention, it's like putting a butterfly under glass, like they're not interested anymore. Now you'd like to think, you know, first time, shame on you know, shame on you.

Second time, shame on me. But some people keep.

Doing it because what they'll often say is like, if somebody's not really exciting in the beginning, I'm going to get bored and I'm not interested. But a lot of it also comes from early family stuff that many times people will say, you know what, I had to really pedal fast and hard to get my parents' attention, and to this day, to me, love means I got to work hard to keep someone's attention, and people will really keep replaying that dynamic over and over again.

I gotta be honest with you.

Sometimes where it turns around, somebody gets really really hurt by a narcissist. I mean they get destroyed by one, and then they go date or fall inve with someone that ten years before they would have thought was boring and they find that, wow, this boring thing is.

Really hot, Like I am down with this.

But they really had to kind of go through that, they had to get hurt to work through that earlier conflict, to realize they were working through earlier kinds of stuff to keep winning this person over. And remember, for a lot of people out there, their prevailing self story.

Is I'm not enough.

I'm not pretty enough, I'm not tall enough, i'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough. And narcissists reinforced that idea of not enough. So then people it's almost like a job then like I'm going to lose weight, or I'm going to be sexier, or I'm going to make more money, or I'm going to get a promotion.

I'm going to win this person over.

Like I said, that's often a story that starts in people's family of origin and then they keep.

Playing that get this person over is really winning. It's really hitting me hard because it's like I always want to, Oh, I'll feel so good if I just do.

I'll bend like a pretzel to get them back.

Do you feel like you'll end up breaking him? Amy? Is that like you're going, you think, But.

She's nailing it with winning.

It's like, I'll feel so good when I get them back, and I'll be so happy and this time it'll be good. And I read I've read like twenty books on narcissism, and what's really fascinating is they are textbook like the book look like and then this will happen, and it did, and then this will happen and it did, and.

I'm so now we just now you need to see why you do that, why you go to those men?

Did you call the therapist?

Yeah, Mike has send me has another one today, and I feel like I'm getting a little something something right now.

I know you need to like figure out why you keep picking it.

Yes, because I do agree, like it's on me now. Yeah, And I even and I have been hurt so bad, so bad, so bad, and I thought, oh, I won't.

Do that again, and I've done it two more times.

Yeah, she can narcissists attract each other. I'm saying, is it possible.

Each other?

And and I like the show? So can you not know?

I'm the m path. I've read like a lot of books I take.

I'm just curious because I know you're all pretty aware.

You're aware. I just think, no, no, no.

Narcissism is so prevalent and it's become sort of a catch phrase. But they are truly crazy makers because you feel crazy, you're like and they kind of tell you you're crazy, and then you think, am I am I crazy?

Like?

Wait?

Am I the one? Am I the one?

And I I think sometimes they're right, and I'll go, oh, if I just do this, then will be good.

If I just do this, will be okay.

I feel like that's a lot of that's a lot of relationships, so too no, No.

It's not. It shouldn't be.

No, you're ever in a relationship and you feel that confused, you got to get out. Some women, what you're describing is what we call gaslighting. Gaslighting is where you keep challenging someone's reality over and over and over again to the point where they feel like they're losing their mind. And in mental health, gas lighting qualifies as emotional abuse. I mean, it's so different than sort of rounding up a fist and punching someone in the face. It's exactly

Some women are strong and like if a man treats them badly, they go at this and they're out where I'm like, oh yeah, let me come back for ten times of this.

This is this great, let me try that again.

But it's addictive.

It's addictive, right because that idea of winning, winning actually lights up the dopamine in our brain.

Like because it is, it often.

Does become a cycle of they win you over and it's really fun and you're having a great time, and then they pull away a little bit, like, oh I got to win them back over. Again, hustle, hustle, hustle, You get their attention, exciting dopamine, and you keep doing it over and over again.

So it's an old cyclone.

So people who are actually have at all an addictive style of their personality, they're often drawn to narcissists too, people who don't mind roller coasters, and people who are sort of slow and steady. They'll walk away. But it is Listen, we're all going to.

Make the mistake. How many people are going to say, well, really attractive guy just gave me.

His number, I'm going to crumple it up and throw it in the trash.

Actually, by the time I'm.

Done with people, they do, I mean, because they're so scared after they talk to me, because.

I trained them so well. I'm like, God, these are the things to look for.

But someone smooth and slick and suave and charismatic, I really love to get to know you.

You're the most interesting person in the room. Most people say, Wow, this is really great. I want to meet this person.

So the trick is a lot of people need to learn better gatekeeping and the first time, the first time anyone fools with your reality, you need to get out and that and really to lay that down because and then what will happen is the narcissist will try to sock you back in. It's actually something called hoovering. They will give you the full court press to get you back in. And you have to have absolute nerves of

Interesting.

This is definitely going to be a trending topic as years go on in this society, I mean, the way things are going. Doctor Ramani, thank you so much for your time. Where can our where can our listeners find you to learn more about you know, your outlook on all of this.

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at doctor Romney which is d O C t O R r A m A n I. You can find my website at doctor Romney which is d O.

C t O R dash r A m a n I dot com.

If you go to either those places, it will link you to my YouTube channel, my Instagram, Twitter, all the rest of it too. And new book coming out so you can order it. It's just about to hit the stores. It's called Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in an Era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. So it's a survival guide for the next century.

And that's October first.

Now October first, Yeah, so much appre thank you take good care of them.

But by now, so we all love a good subscription box, right from food boxes to wellness boxes to I mean anything even Michael Zombie Apocalypse boxes.

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Box for your kids that's fun, educational and helps them develop creative confidence to change your world and also, going to be honest, helps me come up with great ideas because sometimes I feel bad. I'm like, all right, let's just color. But with Kiwiko, they create these super cool hands on projects for kids to make learning about steam fun, science, technology, engineering, art,

Is that gonna be cool? Can she?

Can?

She call in?

Yeah? Yeah, let's get on the phone.

All right, Lauren?

Yeah?

Hey, oh my god, girl, you killed it.

Thank you.

I just watched it again and I was like, is that nateh? Like you even know that person? I'm like an a new person.

And I feel like you kind of because you came over and you're like, I can't dance at all, and then you came out there and like Michael's like, hey, so how did Lauren do?

Because he was. I think he was watching football.

And I said, she freaking killed it, Like you did not miss like a step?

Well you I don't know how.

Here's the thing though, you like, even though even if you did, like we never know, and that's something too, Like I remember I've been like, oh my god, but I missed that and this, and it's like but we don't know, you know, like watching.

Yeah, I was so proud. I thought I was going to pass out.

I was so excited.

That's amazing.

Like that's gotta be like the best feeling, like knowing that, like you know, it's just like that you're like proud of yourself.

I am so proud. Oh my goodness, I'm so glad that it went well and we got Sam.

That is that's incredible, like literally incredible.

Because everyone was like, yeah, the judges are going to be harder this year, and they worked pretty strict. I was like, crap, but Globe like to me, he said, don't even pay attention to the score, Like it's no matter what our score is, it doesn't matter. It's they're gonna be so much more strict this year. This year, and it's gonna be okay. Just don't let it get you down if we don't get a good score. And I was like, is he giving me a pep talk? Is he telling me that we're gonna get a bad school?

Be like, uh huh, how are you preparing for next week?

So we have today off? They like made everyone take today off. I think that's different. Usually I think, did you learn your new dance on Tuesdays?

Yeah?

There was there was no days off.

Yeah, so they like made everyone take today off. It's like a new rule, I guess. So I'm just laying around praying about it.

Well, I'm in LA, So let's get together.

You are uh huh, we have to.

I would love that.

Hey a girl, I just got to ask because it's out there. How's your heart?

My heart is good.

It's it's kind of like weird timing obviously, to go through a break right before you go on TV, but it's been a good distraction. And John and Friends. I mean, I love John. We were best friends before we dated. It's just like didn't work out, you know, yeah, but we're still friends. I've just talked to him and he says, you know, he's really proud of me. And it sucks.

I mean it's sad, but like now's the times are just like have so much freaking fun on Dancing with the Stars and I want everyone to vote for Laura and Elena because she's incredible person and she's killing the like like that was insane. I'm so excited to watch every week now because I think I think the mirror Ball is going to stay in the Country family because that was that was so good, Like it's got to be so happy.

When we get it home. But yes, I want to win so bad. After doing that dance that I wasn't sure that I was gonna be able to do, Like I didn't know how I would do in the moment, you know, I was like, please don't get out there and forget it. I just kept praying, just remember the steps, to remember the steps, because it's so different than anything I've ever done. And I was like what if I'm like nervous and forget the whole thing. That was like yeah, But now that I got that one out of the way,

Well.

Just know that Gleb.

You know, Gleb totally gets that because I remember the first dance, like right before the beet beep beep, I was like, Glove, I've got the entire thing. I've forgot the entire thing. He's like, no, you didn't, just dance and it was like end, You're live and I'm like, so.

It's oh, it's terrible yep on the show.

I mean it scared you.

It's like it's like your heartbeat, like coming out of your truest.

Heart. Like it's very well, I love you.

You looked beautiful. I'm so proud of you.

And I think the biggest takeaway this is that you're proud of yourself too, which I think is huge.

So I'm so proud.

I love you. I'll text you later bybe okay, okay, bye bad.

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Okay, I have to peek, like really bad. Actually you actually have to pee. So did Tori? Right here?

Right here?

What did she get? Let's see, I feel like toy needs to come in here.

They're blue there.

I told her not to get that kind.

It's a peanut butter cups, big old for you.

Thank you? Go ahead, Tori? Would you have to ask again? I had to ask again? Okay?

She recommended these two and I lost you guys on the line, so I didn't hear what you said for not getting and I try to ask what Brandy, and then you guys were disconnected.

Well I'm going to go.

I really have to go.

You guys keep talking. Thank you for your service. We'll go live here on this okay.

Well, yeah, can you take a phone with you to the bathroom bring it in here?

Can you resist looking at it until you get in here? Can you wrap it in paper.

And then bring it in?

Is Mike glad to tell us what was Jenna trying to express to you last night that you couldn't understand, because I want to see if I understand it as a woman.

She was, don't worry.

I got your back, Okay, Yeah, Yeah, we'll talk babies.

Yeah, we'll talk about will grow me about how I feel about this third baby, and we'll talk about the other stuff when you get back.

I think it's great.

With her sp but I don't.

Feel like, how do you feel.

She's gone real hurry fast?

I mean, yes, it would be amazing. And I was genuine when I told Jane. I was like, if we have one, great, If we don't.

I believe you great truly.

But right now with this up the air, now the things that the ideas of starting all over again, and you know that, other plans that we wanted to do in a few years, and it just it changes the landscape of the next few years life of life. Yeah, not even the next few years of life. So it just it changes things.

Well, your house is big enough, That's what I was gonna say.

But how long are you just trusting the universe? Like if it is great?

And that's that's why I'm this way That's why I'm like, even though we got to protect me for a reason, I'm still just like, but.

Is a part of you like because you know her, and you know if it comes back and it says no, She's going to kind of be like, I kind of want another no.

Because my I mean, I'm on my foot's down.

I also think it's a no. I don't think she is.

I don't think yes.

The universe clearly wants you to have this, which is totally fine because I love our kids more than anything, and like this whole last weekend as hot as hell in Nashville, and we were in the pool all day every day with both kids, and it was just like, this is the happiest thing in the world.

And it's like the other night, Jolie woke up at like four in the morning for some reason, came into bed. I'm on I'm near the door side. She came in late in my arms for like twenty minutes. I took her upstairs to her room. She wanted me to lay with her and read her story. We fell asleep together in her bed. I'm like this right here. I was like, nothing in the world beats this. I was like, so if I have a third kid to do that again with. I was like, I wouldn't regret that. What's boy or girl,

Down.

She's like, I want five boys.

Wow.

I just feel like a part of her is gonna be a little sad if she comes in and it's a no, Like I know she's gonna that.

I honestly have no empathy for because I'm like, this isn't like this.

Would just be a bonus, like like, yeah, it'd be.

Great, it be amazing because you were you guys did decide as as a.

Unit that you were done, and you went and did your thing right.

Even though the next day she's like, actually I don't.

Know, dude. We were sitting here in the podcast and she was like, actually, I know, that.

Was very fascinating. I mean, she's not pregnant. I'm I would be willing to be.

But like Sarah's saying, she's definitely gonna probably be a little upset if she's not. But okay, Sarah, what's your gut?

Rely?

I mean, the sectomies are pretty good.

Oh god, she's bad.

Did you do you have a paper towel? It has a cap I don't know these things is clean? Cover it up?

What do you cover it up?

I don't know. So it's like we all unveeel it together.

We gradually get no spoilers.

What do you mean spoilers up?

Yeah, there you go, say it takes.

Now now you've been gone for two.

Yeah, it'll show up now because it usually shows up with and like like the real Yeah, just give it a minute.

Let's talk about the other stuff and then we'll come back to this.

You're really gonna make us a base.

That's so rude because what if it says not and then in another minute it says yes.

I don't think they can change their minds.

That's like almost worse than what Toy said, did you take did.

You take one?

Or two?

I just did one before you Look, how are you feeling?

Actually, as I was doing it, I was like, Oh, I'm kind of like, I'm kind of nervous right now.

Yeah, you're taking a pregnancy test.

I would be nervous to do you have a feeling how you'll feel if it's a yes or a no?

Like as excited as I would be, I'm like, I'm I'm good to where we're at.

Okay, we're good. I think I feel that well.

I think that you'll there will be tears.

If it's no, a little misty, a little bit of a little bit, I think i'd be okay.

I do too. Think about how drunk you're going to get right, you're.

Going to get you know. I was really excited.

I feel like we can look, can we look?

Oh god, I'm actually freaking out. Okay, look right, procedure.

Somehow Okay, ready, what do you do?

Oh my god?

If it's two lines, we're pregnant. If it's one line, we're.

Not, there's.

Wait, how many lines are Jesus? Oh god?

To okay, what is it? One more time?

You're lying limiting? He's like, double jacket. Are you looking at the lines? I'm not pregnant?

How accurate are those things though? I mean they're pretty accurate of.

Him having a vasectomy, and it's saying no, I'm going pretty solid.

No, I'm looking for the second one. Oh god. Because sometimes she's like the line is there?

I just show up though, It's like, now what.

You try?

What did I tell you?

You know?

She'll be happy? She won't.

I'm like, I really think she's gonna be like just try.

I kind of do, babe.

Oh you know, like what a bummer?

No, who knows? Maybe need some candy?

Yeah, I started eating. I just literally packed up in chips. I'm like, I can't with this.

I Am like, she's like, someone take a test, someone, Maybe I'm going through menopause. My mom went through menopause at thirty three.

Oh yeah, then maybe because she thought she was.

She took me to the doctor's with her and thought that she was.

I'm gonna look at that later.

By the way, she thought that she was pregnant, and she went through early menopause.

So that's why I've always.

Get a full out of whack at your age. But will you tell us what happened last night? Because I'm really curious whose side I'm on. I'm sorry to say that, but I.

Really I'm most likely did you already tell your part?

No, I'm most likely you wanted to wait because you wanted to Well, he seemed a little frustrated because sometimes like nighttime routine can be a little a lot.

So he seemed just a little more on edge and frustrated. And so when we put the kids down, I was coming down the stairs and this is the second time he's made a comment about the gates, the baby gates not closing.

When was the other time.

I was saying, I was like, oh, He's like, did you close the gate when we went up to take Jason to the bath and you would just close the gate. I was like, oh, no, it doesn't close very well.

Yeah. All I asked was did you close the gate?

I know, but and I said no, So then that was so. Then the second time was then when I came down the steps, and so he was just kind of like in a little weird of a mood. And then he said this sounds like so juvenile now, but we're walking down the I'm walking down the steps and he goes, is it so hard for you to not shut the gate?

No? I didn't. I just like, too, that's not at all how I said it or what I said.

You were very like dead, honey, I said.

Did you What did I say? I said, did you need did you have a hard time shutting the gate? Because you had said it's hard to shut? No, but you know, we got it fixed. But because the last isn't fall completely on it. But this against context, that's that's important.

But you said, do you have a hard time shutting the gate, and I'm like, oh, it just it was like very deadpanned, and he was just and I just was like okay, like sorry, and to kind of ran at the step scene how to like close up properly, and then I just again because to me, that was not like later on he said that was a joke, but I'm like, but you seemed frustrated early on, so I didn't really take it as a joke because it

He's like, nothing's wrong, and I'm just like I love how.

The infliction of her voice to act.

But like, yeah, I mean you still were like nothing like you wasn't like, oh no, babe, I'm totally fine. I'm sorry that you think something's wrong, like it was sorry, Oh you don't okay, you don't say you're sorry, but you can you know, you could have been like, oh no, babe, nothing's wrong at all. And so it's a different like sometimes like your tone is can you taken a little harsher?

Do you guys watch the show The Affair?

So here's what's super fascinating and why I think you guys should watch it the way they do well, it is about an affair.

You'll be able to handle that.

The clearly they shoot the same scene. Oh love that from the woman's perspective.

And then the man's love.

It's the same sort of scenario, and the differences are amazing, Like it's incredibly because the way it lands on one character when you're seeing it from the male perspective and then the opposite, and as the viewer, you're really like, well, wow, yeah, I don't know what.

Happened now because I see both. Yeah, it's super fascinating and that's what I see.

Yeah, No, for sure, And I can get like, you know, there's times when you know, he's a little bit more quieter than other times.

But you know, lately he has been a little bit more.

Just smoothie, I guess, and so it's just been kind of hard to decipher that and it just you know, I just think his tone sometimes is very hard to take because it's it's not cheery. It doesn't have to be You don't have to always be cheery, but you

Hey, that landed on me weird. Do you mind explaining it?

Yeah, I guess.

Sometimes remember that one time there was a doctor here I don't remember her name, and she said something like if you had more like oh god, it was like something like emotional, if you had more in the bank or something more like a I feel like that's how it is sometimes like he was probably joking, but because the tone is not, you're more hyper sensitive to it.

You know what I'm saying, Like I feel like that could be it for sure.

That's what I feel like. I'm kind of hearing because I feel like you both are probably like, yeah, it was nothing, but it was something like he doesn't like when you say you know what's wrong or something wrong, but then you don't like when he snaps or whatever it is. Even if it was a joke, you didn't think it was a joke because you're just more.

You're not you're not sensitive, but you're more.

Hyper sensitive to things he and now we're making him out an skin right. It's just like his restingness though, is like because he.

Thinks a while back, was like yeah, basically I remember like yeah, and all my friends think you're grumpy.

I'm like, what, No, because you're you're more like you're just like thinking about it, but to you, you're more, you know what I mean, So you I could see how you'd be like, are you mad?

But really he's like, no, I'm not mad, but stop asking, you know.

Yeah, And I do get it, but again it was the tone in which, like, I don't think you realized this is your tone sometimes with when you speak.

I'm guilty of doing the you should have done this.

And men do not enjoy that.

No, So I really learned.

And it's like, what are you my mom?

It's like I'd best.

Not do that.

Yeah, So I really am working on that because I get it. And they don't like to be told what to do. So even if you're like, hey, you should have said this or you should feel this, it's essentially telling them what to do and they don't care for that.

I just don't know why it's so hard to like, I mean, I was literally talking like a therapist, Michael.

All I'm asking you to do in this moment.

Is just to please try to understand where I'm coming from and then you can say your feelings after that. And he's just like he could not do it, and I was just like, I can't