Wind Down with Jann Kramer and Michael Coffman and I'm her radio podcast. All right, so there's a lot going on in the world, and we're not going to talk about it. We're going to talk about everything else.
Well, not that we're not going to talk about it. It's Mark made a really good point in the opening of the show. It's like, I don't think people come to you for politics.
I don't think we're under the politics and news category of podcasts.
No, But I will say I will say one thing because me and my girlfriends were talking about the other day and I was like, you know what this is, just like this is why I turn off sometimes the news and Instagram, because I like it just stresses me out and gives me anxiety. And I'm like, I'm what, I'm in control because I'm not in control of anything else.
I mean, I first and foremost believe God's in control, but after that, I'm in control of what I do to make myself feel better anxiety, the things that I do, like to be a better mom, and me watching the news, and you know, I want to be informed, like I'm not trying to be arrogant walking around, but I also feel like, I know the kind of person I am. I have a lot of anxiety and I can't control
that right now. So I'm going to control what I can, and that's you know, being a good mom, showing up, doing self care, and trying to stay off you know, the news is much as possible. And now someone might call me arrogant and white privilege because of that, but you know, I just yeah, I know my anxiety level of things, and I just I have to just you know, control what I can because if not, I'll go crazy.
Yeah, And this is one of the reasons why I really enjoy not being on social media. Granted, sometimes I feel out of the loop when things start to occur, but I like it, especially when you get into the weeds of things. And so instead of talking about that, let's talk about Kim and Kanye for a second. Why Because are you really surprised that they're getting divorced?
I mean, I feel bad for their kids.
I mean, can you say you're surprised.
Though, I'm you know who she has on Actually I was on her podcast, Laura Walser. Oh yeah, yeah, I just did her podcast a while ago. I mean, I'm not if anyone like so there's so many divorces. I'm surprised by a few people's divorces this year. But I mean, honestly, it's kind of sad, but like nothing surprises me anymore. That's a good point, I mean, And that's that's kind of sad to think about that, because I'm like, I mean, someone could say the same about us if we got divorced.
Are you surprised?
Do you know a valid point?
Like, you're right, Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised.
People probably wouldn't be that surprised.
No, they'd be like, all right, you know, they tried.
But they might be more surprised like ten yet from round back. Really I forgot about that.
But no, I mean, you know, again, I feel bad for the kids and even though they're bajillionaires, but you know that sayesn't you know again, we have friends that have all the money in the world, but they're so unhappy in their marriage. So it's like, you know, it's not about it's not about that.
And it's not. I'm the older you get, the more you realize that.
But yeah, but I mean, if you take into account, I'm really not surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if people said the same thing about us.
And I'm with you, you know, speaking to kids. Though. We had Jolly come in our bed last night because anytime she takes a nap at school, we can tell because she does not go to sleep when we put her to bed, and she's.
Just so crabby today.
Yeah, it was so whiny. Yeah, And so it was snowing last night, so we're like, all right, we know Jolly's up. We turned all the lights off in our room and opened the curtains so we could watch the snow, Like, all right, so we'll get Joelye and bring her down. So we do that, and we're cuddling and we're like sandwiching Jolly, and after three minutes, no, like two, Joe Jolie kind of goes dad like yeah, honey, She's like,
I'm ready to go to my bed. And that's funny for us, because, as you guys know, our love languages are completely different, and Jolie is my child when it comes to that stuff, where like the whole cuddling and all that, she's good for like a minute and she's like, nah, I'm good, I'm gonna go sleep in my bed. Y'all sleep in your bed. I'm out.
Yeah, And I'm like, just somebody cuddle with me.
Please, That's what I say. You got Jason. He's a little cuddle bug, he is.
But what else is going on?
Yeah, we're traveling today. We're going to Ohio from my grandmother's funeral that passed away on the twenty eighth, and uh, you know, I sat with my motions around it, you know, the first twenty four hours when we found out. But now I'm I guess I'm kind of nervous for like going back, going up there and the emotion's coming back.
And as Jana knows, she's suffered from dementia for the past fifteen years, has lived in assistant living for the last twelve, barely remembers, you know, only has like one memory that she can remember of the grandkids or you know, parents or whatever. And so it's one of those things that the call was inevitable, but it doesn't really change the impact of it when it finally comes, you know. So I don't know, I'm a little nervous.
Which part are you nervous?
Book? I mean, we haven't traveled since early fall, when things were a little calmer, with the whole virus stuff, so that I guess a little bit, and then I think just the emotions of things. And you know, anytime you see someone you love upset too, that's like even more of a kill or so it's like seeing my mom upset or something like that, and you know, we're the only ones able to go, so like you and I are basically representing all the grandkids, So that's that's big.
I think there's some emotion around that too, because I wish my cousins could be there because we were all
really close. I wish, you know, all my aunts and uncles could be there, but you know they have their reasons that they can't, So I think that's gonna I'm nervous and sad for that too, that it's not the celebration of life that one hopes for somebody they love, and the means of not everyone being able to be there, But you know, we're gonna make the most of it, and we're gonna be able to see some of your family too, because it's in Toledo, Ohio, which is close
to Detroit, so we're kind of bundling the trip up with seeing family for positive and negative reasons.
So yeah, well I'm sorry again. I'm happy that I'm going to be able to be there to support you in your mom.
We appreciate it. I appreciate it.
Well, let's take a break and then we're going to bring it back up, you know.
On a high note. We have found another great show that we've been watching.
So we finished Undoing, which was so good, slightly triggering, but so good. Yeah, and now we're on Flight Attendant, which is so good. It reminds me of Dead to me.
Very similar, yeah, very yeah, in very similar ways. Definitely, I can see how they're how they're the same. It's surprise. It's because neither one of us hadn't necessarily opinion of Kallik Cucko.
I personally never liked thirty What is that? Thirty Rock? No, Big Big Bang, didn't. I just didn't. I didn't, I no, No, I didn't like her in it. I didn't like the show. So but now I like, like, Osh, she doesn't bother me.
I think she's great in it.
Oh, she's awesome. She honestly, she reminds me of a Christine Applegate. It's very dead to me kind of feel. And then we also we have our side stuff too. So I watched Pretty Little Things, which is a ballet show but it's like dark and loved it. And then Bridgerton, which I binged in one day, so steep me. It's like soft p O r N. I can't say the word. And it's I mean, it's incredible. It's like Pride and Prejudice on like viagra.
Yeah. You described it to me saying, is the fifty shades of gray and Pride and prejudice, Pride and Prejudice.
Yeah, it's so good. Oh my god, it was so good. I mean, I know, did you try it?
Look? Pride and Prejudice is one of Jan's favorite movies of all time. And I fall asleep and I'm I'm not a fall asleep during a movie kind of guy. That thing bores me to death, and so I'm with you.
I hate period pieces.
I hate powdered wigs, I hate the big bell dresses.
I hate all of it.
I watched the trailer for Bridget and I thought, Nope, not for me. But everyone's raving about it. I think I have to try it.
You have to try it. But here's the thing I will say. I don't think it's for men. I think it's for women, but I think it's very bad on like my marriage and like those kind of shows, because every show that I watch is like the lust and the love and like wanting that like attention and having that like immediately, and I'm just like, this is like me and my girlfriend were talking about, like this is terrible for our marriages because we're just like, ah, we want that again.
We want that mister Darcy.
Well, the Duke.
It's just like and of course that night, you know, I'm like, might gets home from a guy's night and I'm like, baby, come cuddle with me, and you know, he ends up not cuddling with me, and I'm like, ugh, I just want a man's ye around me. But I think it truly is like it's like a gossip Girl's fifty Shades of Gray.
You've been binging more shows, I think than I have recently. Yep, you have. Yeah, she's basically confiscated my iPad. Anytime I go and look for it, she's got it somewhere.
But no, it's really good. Like I think, Mark, you should definitely watch it. Don't let your daughters near it, I mean not don't watch it with a parent, like if you're older in your twenties thirties, don't watch it with a parent. I mean she's basically getting you know what on like the Stairs, Like it's just like it's intense, so it's it's almost like, I mean, it's hot. It makes you like your heart.
How it's a period piece, so what they're wearing, like you.
Don't just don't understand. It's the connection that the duke and the girl have. But everything is so overly sexualized right now on TV. I mean it's sex scene. It's like the one show that I watched, I was like, why do you have to have so many sex scenes like it? I feel like everything's just so overly sexualized that it's kind of getting annoying.
I actually have a take on that. Okay, I've found myself and I don't know if this necessarily comes from a little bit of obviously my recovery stuff or whatever. Because we're seeing any of that in shows and movies. It doesn't affect me like that doesn't like oh, like that doesn't get my addict think it doesn't, so, but I do. I have found myself more uncomfortable, and I think maybe it is because of shows. How sexualized? Are
they are? Where if I'm watching a show or a movie by myself and I'm like, okay, Like I watched a Basic Instinct for the first time, right, like a couple of weeks ago, never seen it, right because when it came out, we were just too young, and I
just haven't never watched it. That movie is effing intense, okay, and the sex things are intense, and I'm just like, all right, it's it's been like a minute, like I get it, and I would hit like the you know, fast forward ten seconds, fifteen seconds until it's done, because I'm like, this isn't this does nothing for me. I want like get back to the story of the action. I want to know what happens. Did she really kill them?
And all this stuff? And so to your point, I mean, granted that was movie in the nineties, but still things I've watched now, I'm just like, Okay, I get it.
But as a woman too though, I'm looking at it like, yes, I love the connection. But then at the same time, I'm like, does every single episode have to have this? Now? Granted it did something for me, I loved it, but not not when I turn on the next show and it's like god, like, okay, can I have something else that isn't just like sex like every single episode.
Well, you know, here's the thought for twenty twenty one.
Might be time to get Jane of her own iPad.
A But here's the thing. Now, I'll get it. I'll get it, and she'll never use it. No, She'll still like use mine and then and I'll get up bring it home and be like why did you spend money on this? And so it's I'm gonna lose lose here, Mark okay, and she's the world's world charging things. When she's done.
Oh, he gets so mad at me, and I'm like, chill, just plug it in.
Yeah, but if you need it right then.
Like this morning, I wanted to watch By the way, I'll never run without the iPad because I was so bored today at my run. So I'm like because I oh my god, it's like oh, so was because it's thirty minutes up yet. But I was like, hey, can I use your iPad? And he's like, well, I have to charge it, and I'm like, well, how much is left on there? He's like thirty percent and I was like, oh I can That's perfect. That'll give me enough time to watch and he's like, but but like it just
gave you anxiety. I'm like, who.
Cares because we're traveling today.
Oh, then you just charge it after my run and he gets mad at me when I don't charge it Jolie's iPad, he gets mad at you.
Yeah, and that's right. Joey comes and wakes me up at six in the morning, dead iPad. Oh sorry, Mommy didn't charge it. Here's mine, and then that one's dead, and then everything's dead.
I have two batteries, like just for Allison's bone. Her phone's always dying, and I'm like, these are always charged, ready to go because she can charge it up anywhere she is. But one thing I do.
Right in's sane. I'm like, like, if we went on trips with it, when we go on trips with the kids again, yes, Jana probably plans so much stuff around it, but we would not survive if it wasn't for dad. Because I got the cords, I got the iPads, I got the headphones, I got batteries, I got everything for the trip. I got planned packed ready to go, ge have it prepared. Everything's fully charged. If it was Janna in that category. I think this is women thing too.
Men with our stuff is charged, our stuff is ready to go. Women be like, wait, where are my headphones?
Wait?
Wait, this isn't charge.
I don't have Oh I'm sorry because we were so busy packing our clothes, kids, clothes, your clothes, probably doing the laundry, everything else that I'm sorry we don't have. We don't give up flying. Guess what freedom.
About You can buy. You can buy the electronic Guess what happens on the airplane. You can't get new clothes on the airplane.
But guess what time out.
You don't need clothes on airplanes, but need you do need. You need something to watch, You need something to entertain yourself. You need something to entertain your kids. And extra clothes.
Okay, you've said your piece on the plane, what do you do? I'm constantly like, okay, Mommy's like mommy, mommy, mommy, I want to snack. I'm like, oh yeah, okay, okay, here's a snack, Mommy, Mommy, I'm thirsty. Okay, hey I got a peep Okay. And you know what Michael's doing. He's sitting there on his freaking iPad. The entire flight I'm like, can you help, please? Just on his iPad? And I'm like, no iPads for anybody on the plane, like none, Like there will be no iPad roll for
just Jolie. Like Joli and Jason have him fine, but Dad, he's not allowed to have his iPad. It's like he gets annoyed. You get so annoyed when I tap on your shoulder when I.
Talked about this, I started the video from we talked about this when we were on the podcast in La. We're in the studio and you tap me. I'm just like, what what do you want?
I've got two kids. They need help. I need help. I'm sorry, like ones like ah, and you're like enjoying whatever show that you're watching. I don't know, rewatching Dexter for the twentieth freaking time, or the office, Like like, help put your iPad down. I don't get to have a fun free flight.
Can't you see I'm busy.
Oh my god.
We have a guest on today that I'm very intrigued and excited to talk to.
I kind of feel like you're going to fight with her, just like you fought with me. Gonna be a little honest on that, because I was reading The Breakdown, but I read.
More on her on her home web page, and it comes off.
Not as not as like, well, isn't doesn't she not believe in AA programs?
It didn't so on the Breakdown it seemed that way. On her website, it the way she painted the picture was like more of it wasn't for.
Her, which, oh, okay, I have a lot of friends there like that.
I respect that. Yeah, So I'm just interested. So her name's Hollywhittaker, and she wrote a book Quit Like a Woman.
Okay, Setigan used her actually to stop drinking.
She did, and so you know, her her following around this this concept is really growing, you know, especially with women. So I'm interested to get her on, obviously, me being someone who's in recovery and works a twelve step program on her takes, you know, on the differences and why she didn't get into it, everything like that. So, I mean, she has a podcast, she's got a book, she has a blog. You know, she usually work in healthcare, healthcare business.
So I'm excited to get her on and kind of dive deep on a subject that I'm obviously very passionate, passionate and bias towards m But before.
We bring her in, let's talk about three day Rule. That's right, Well, are you recently divorcement need some help getting back out there?
I don't, but I'm sure some do.
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Let us know if there's a match made in heaven. Before we get Holly on, Mark just said something to me and I'm like, wait, did we have this conversation? Will you say what you just said?
Well, with Holly coming on, I don't know if it's relevant to her conversation because she's more about quitting alcohol.
I was just mentioning that I personally have never been drunk in my life.
Easton also never has drunk in his life, and so I thought, if it comes up, if you need it, there you go.
And I haven't either, So really never been drunk.
Man, Well, aren't I just the sinner here?
No?
I my mom she'd let me have a wine cooler when I was like fourteen fifteen, so I never felt like I had to hide and abuse. And I was like, oh, okay, that's what it tastes like. Great, and then I never you know, I was the one always driving my drunk friends in high school. I didn't have my college years, and I just saw them like, why would you want to get drunk? Like you're puking, you look miserable, Like.
The idea of somebody the next day telling me what I did the night before is my worst nightmare?
That sounds awful, And Mike would Mike would say this though, he would say, well that's blackout drunk. It's different. He's like, you've been drunk. I'm like, I've never had the spins. I've never like, I get like, I get happy like, but I've never I've never spun. I've never like, I have my two drinks and I'm done.
She've been buzzed. And that's about it.
Yeah, I've been I've been a little buzzy a time or two, but I've never been drunk.
And how often do you drink wine?
Well, so I'm I'm stopping as much as I used to. So I've I used to drink pretty much daily, but now I'm doing three to four days and I'll have like because they say for women, seven drinks in a week is average. So now I'm like, I'm just picking like three days out of the week and I'll have like six drinks. Well I'm not six drinks, but six total, like out of the wake. So I'm just and plus I'm like, I have a wine coming out, Like I
love wine, Like I'm obsessed with wine. It's my wind up, I mean wine down, Like my new wine, one Brick, is coming out this week. Like it's just you know.
I I banned one Brick.
Just I love wine, but I also like I don't abuse it, like I don't I if we go to like we just went to the Titans game, and it's like, I don't drink because I want to get drunk or to fit, Like I don't. I like good wine. So and I've and when we go on vacations, like I don't get a strawberry this or whatever. Like I'm just like, I'll have a nice glass of wine at dinner because I can't drink crappy wine like I just like the taste of good wine.
Well, Holly's ready, so we can bring her in the differences. I don't even know what wine tastes like.
So there's you know, are you.
Like sober or did you just never ever I've never.
Even tried it. I don't even know what taste like. I don't even I've just stayed away my whole life.
Oh wow, it's interesting.
Okay, let's bring in Holly and get this convo started. Hello, Hey Holly, Hey Holly, how you doing. Hi?
You good.
I'm hanging in there. How are you both?
We're great, we're doing great.
Yeah. So recently you've had a you know, a more I mean, obviously, you know, people know who you are. But with Chrissy Teagan saying that you know your book helped her get sober, I mean that's got to be That's got to be pretty cool someone with as much notoriety as she has to talk about your book. I mean that's got to feel pretty good.
Yeah, it feels pretty extraordinary and unreal.
Actually, I've been doing this since I started talking about my own sobriety in twenty thirteen in a really different world, and my thoughts about it at the time, I mean they were pretty they're echoed.
Now throughout people's recovery.
There's a different story that we're building about what it means to stop drinking, and so it's real true validation. I think of the work that a lot of people need to change the narrative on what quitting drinking means.
So Holly, also, I want to ask, because I don't know much of our story that you know, but I'm in a twelve step program in recovery for sex addiction, and I've been in the program for since twenty sixteen. You know something that I follow that has worked for me. But I totally understand after being in it, how someone can have a mindset of maybe it's just not for me,
or they want to find other ways. And as you know, I'm sure you've been in the rooms to try to figure all this out, they pretty much don't say there's any other way. They just say there's twelve steps, right, And so I'm interested, like, what was that point for you that you're like, Okay, this isn't for me. I got to find a different way.
I think it's real interesting.
So my entry into this was I was given a twelve step program as an option when I first went to a doctor in twenty twelve, and then I had severe bolimia and also alcoholics disorder and also substance use disorder pot so.
It was a non starter for me.
I just you know, I couldn't go there and I didn't want that. And then I ended up finding almost like a third door because I was I self diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder, which also said you need to stop drinking, which I want to be clear, I didn't have. But a lot of times there's different mental
health issues that are replicated by addiction or exacerbated. But for me, I found a different way in I read a book called The Easy Way to Control Alcohol, which really almost broke down the idea of alcoholism, you know, versus like alcoholism as a I think some people have versus alcoholism thing.
Maybe most people you know shouldn't be consuming the way we do in the West and.
Now throughout the world.
But it was just I had a very different in and I formed a set of beliefs around myself, you know, and also alcohol. And then and I tried to quit drinking for six months and it was such a terrifying experience, and I by the time on my sobriety date, which is April fourteen, twenty thirteen, I really had I had come to terms with so much, and I also felt like I really needed support and to face it. So I actually did go. That's when I went to AA.
One of my friend's fathers called me, and he been in AA for twenty years, and he was just like, go, you know, And so I went. And what I found was having had an experience where I had developed a different belief system and was actually really secure in my own relationship in that I didn't want to drink. And also I felt that a lot of the conversations I was having in the rooms were running counter to that.
I had people come up to me after the meeting and say I would drink again if I didn't get a sponsor, I would drink again if I didn't go to more meetings. And what had really been so important to me in my own recovery was moving that kind of idea out of my mind that I would have to constantly be vigilant of my alcoholism to not drink. I had a very different belief set around that, and so I felt almost more threatened in my sobriety and
that experience than I did without going to AA. So I stopped going about three months after I got sober.
That's so interesting, you know, I can understand. I can understand what you're saying at the end there about people. It almost feels like a codependency at times, right, like like that people may have to the program or have to a sponsor, have the people around them, where I understand you need the support because it's all about right reconnecting with people and getting out to yourself and everything.
But I do share that mindset with you where I'm like, I'm not the same in that where I feel like if I don't call someone right now, right the second, I'm going to act out or I'm going to do whatever. So I definitely agree with you on that.
Well, I think too, Like I'll just interject, like when you were trying to find a sponsor, like one of them was so much like there was a kid to call every day, and you're just like that's not going to help me from not doing it, Like it's it's just finding the right person for you that's going to help guide but also work the steps that because you do believe in the program.
You know, yeah, yeah, And I think that's what's so important is I think that there's so many ways to recover. It's recovery is as unique to each individual, like there is no I don't know anybody that has been the exact same things.
And I think that.
We are so afraid to explore other options and to validate other options. And so I think, you know, from what I know now and how many people I know that are in recovery from all from all things, that there's there has to be room for for so many different ways to exist.
So I mean, your book titles quit quit like a Woman? What is that? How do you quit like a woman? I'm curious.
I think the book is really meant to acknowledge the experience of women and which is extremely unique. And we're sick for a lot of reasons that that men, you know, the same way that black women are sick for a
lot of reasons that white women will never understand. But we're sick for a lot of specific things, and then there's also this very specific culture where we are marketing it to each other constantly on social media as you know, the way through, and this is echoed like yesterday, Julian Michaels posted time of death for dry January as the moment that the capital has breached, and then you just
see thousands of women saying drinking whiskey now. And so we're in this bubble where we're constantly normalizing these drugs to get through life. And so the book really specifically speaks to what the how this came about, how we became the marketers of alcohol to each other, and the normalization of constant use for mothering, for getting through work
pretty stressing. And then it also really specifically addresses that we're coming to recovery often with deflated egos, the lack of you know, sense of self, with the lack of being able to move freely in the world without having to defend ourselves, and really starts from that point of what we need in order to build ourselves up instead of you know, for me, when I was getting sober, a lot of this was don't trust yourself, trust other people.
You know you're wrong, your mind is lying to you and don't you know your ego is you know, that's your ego talking, or that's your alcoholism talking. And really what the book starts with is just you know what most women are coming in the door with is, which
is like a cratered ego. And there has to be the sense of really building up this this belief that we can trust ourselves and that we can develop a sense of ego and that it's not wrong or our addiction talking, but almost what we need in order to really exist fully for sure.
I guess, like my question to you is, you know I've I've never been drunk. We just talked about that before. But I love wine, like I mean, I have a wine coming out this week, like it's it is my thing. And I do like, you know, I don't I know where you know, nights that I'm like, okay, if we're fighting really bad, like I'm not going to drown it out, you know with the wine. And I have to talk
myself almost sometimes out of that. But I do, like after a long day with the kids, like sometimes I'm like I do want that and I don't want to feel bad for it, you know, because it is and I'm not abusing it, and so that's why I'm like, you know, I it's like I totally hear what you're saying. But then I'm also on the other side. I'm like, but it's also okay that I do this because I'm not abusing it in the way where I'm getting drunk. And I'm like, but I also, like, I enjoy wine.
I enjoy the you know, the taste of good wine, and like I'll never just go to a ran the place and be like, you know, if we go to a bar, like I don't drink bar wine, Like I like the like the real nice wine, And so you know, I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want women also to feel like that that's not okay to like all that joy, Yeah.
Right, Like women don't need any more shame or guilt for the choices that they make. And you know you just said, like I unlined with a cheeseburger and wined with a bowl of pasta and sugar and gluten and all of you know, the things that you know have now been crossed off the list of what we're able to enjoy, what we should enjoy, And so that this
really isn't you know. The way I always pull it back is there's a thing called informed consent, and informed consent is really what was driving In terms of like opioid over prescription. There was no informed consent about the addictive nature of it, and the same goes for like Milltown or value when it was over prescribed.
Our venzes were overprescribed. We we don't know, we don't fully.
Understand the consequences of the substance that we're ingesting, and we're not able to make informed decisions. And when you couple with that the marketing that this is and the normalization of the marketing of it, we're not actually moving forward with the full set of facts. And so the way that I really what I really come back to is that it's about choice, and it's about informed choice. And most of us don't understand that the actual full negative impact of alcohol, and we don't think of it
as a drug. And because we don't think of it as a drug, we also don't think of it as
something that could potentially cause us harm. And so it's just like we have the full set of facts around cigarettes now we know what they do to us, we still don't really have we're not working with the full set of facts around alcohol and that like it's linkage to cancer, and that it's linkage to hormonal imbalance, sleep, sleep and balances, and so we're pushing this is, like this is how you to sleep or this is and we're not necessarily going into that with eyes wide open
around what it actually does to us. And the list is pretty long of the negative impact. So I know what sugar does to me, you know, and so I'm consuming it with a full set of knowledge that it causes inflammation, that it causes blood sugar millance like whatever. But we don't have that with alcohol.
What's your you know, quit like a woman, what's the whole foundational belief? Because you know, in twelve steps it's all about higher power, living in consultation, connection and not living in isolation, right to get away from yourself. So what is that like for in that book? And what can people expect when they read it, Like, what's the foundation for, you know, for being sober and getting away from those things?
I think first is what I was just talking about, which is that like information is so important around recovery, addiction, the substance. But I think mostly it's about holistic, unique paths to recovery and empowered paths to recovery. So I
would say, like I run a company. We run. I run a company that helps people move through recovery, and our foundational belief is that we put people at the center of it, which means that whatever whatever someone does needs to be designed around their unique life, right, it needs to be designed around you know, what social oppressions are coming in with what like deficits and you know,
physiology or nutrition or what what whatever. There's a full spectrum of a human that walks through the door anytime you know, you're looking to enter a path of recovery. And really we drink or we drug, or we escape for so many different reasons, and all those reasons really have to be brought into it.
So you know, AA or a twelve.
Step program absolutely focuses on community, It focuses on storytelling, it focuses on higher power, it focuses on you know, there's there's very specific things those are not excluded from the path, right, But I think it's a matter of also bringing in other things, like you know, balancing our neurochemicals, or leaving an abusive relationship or finding purpose and meaning in our lives, and so it expands to bring all of the things you're in a twelve step program, but
I guarantee you that you're also doing other things for your self development. That this is one facet of it. And that's really how the book conceptualizes recovery, which is has to include the whole of your being, not just your spiritual path, not just your fellowship and community, not just your amends and your service, but really so many different things.
You know, I can respect and appreciate that because I've told people this, I've told Jana this and other brothers in the program. Is you know, I went to impatient treatment for sixty days and which not everyone is able to do. And honestly, I have a lot of respect for people that have gotten sober and not gone to impatient because the amount of work, therapeutic work that you
do that's right and patient. For me, I wouldn't have been able to get sober if I didn't do that, if I didn't find out all that inside of me and try to purge and start figuring out where everything came from, which it sounds like I make up is kind of like what you're doing where it's like, it's so much more than just showing up and being a part of a community and stuff like that. So again, I commend you for that, especially being someone that you
know is in a twelve step program. But do you ever if you have a client or someone that you're working with and maybe something just isn't working, do you ever suggest twelve steps?
Is that ever we suggest it?
Yeah?
We suggest everybody try everything and they make up their own mind about it.
That's great.
So there's people that you know, we use our program that are also part of the fellowship. There's people that have moved, you know, through it and don't find it useful anymore, or felt it couldn't work and have left it. There's people that are afraid to try it, that this is a soft landing that then maybe progresses and evolves
into their wanting to try it. And so I think it's just there's it's it's again, I think we've done ourselves such a disservice by saying there's either just this one place over there and it's either good or bad, and then there's these other things, and really there's there's a whole constellation of ways for people to find themselves.
And I think it's really important that people understand some things, like they can pick and choose, and they can outgrow or they can grow into and so it's it's so empowering when we're able to really look at this and be able, you know, first of all, to acknowledge every other person's choices. We're so different, you know, you and I are so different and not the same things are
going to work. And at the same time, we've done this disservice to ourselves by thinking that that if I choose a different way, it's an affront to your choice, or it means your choice is wrong.
Your choice is Like that's just not the truth.
When I was critical, I've written a lot about AA and my closest friends are you know in AA.
And like it's just it doesn't undermine their choice. It doesn't make what they've done any less or any more.
And I think that we had we do have a habit of saying, well, this.
Reflects on your choice, reflects on me, and that's just not the case. Like we have to support each other. I don't care what you do like I should.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I mean I I totally hear you on that and I took a lot from that, even just from the other side, Like you know, I have friends that go to alan On and it's I mean, it's their their place that they're able to heal. I mean, we just I just had the conversation with a few friends the other day. But like when I tried essen On, it just wasn't for me, Like I didn't I tried. I was like, I was angry. I was I didn't
like it at all. And it's like, yeah, I found my piece is through my therapist, and I found a friend that she sponsors a bunch of people. I don't really call her my sponsor, but whenever I get that angst, I you know, I either call her or I call my therapists. And because every time I'm like, well, I'm told that I have to go to Essenon if I'm a sex addict's wife. So I go and I sit in his rooms and I'm like, I'm angry at my husband right now, I hate myself and I don't like
it here. And I leave crying and just like depressed and defeated, and I'm like, wait a minute, like I it's okay to not be in the program, and still be doing your work, so I can get it from like valid too.
Yeah, it's valid, it doesn't mean you're not doing it right. And that was the thing I had to really overcome, was I got I had a lot of people who just expected, oh, if you have an addiction, you do AA, if you have an addiction, you do NA or essay or whatever, any of the millions of dulls to problems that there now, and I I just it was so invalid. I was like, but wait a minute, I'm actually taking I'm the one taking the steps to do something about this,
and any step I'm taking is the work. And we do have this idea that if you're not doing this one thing, then it's it's you, you know, not doing your part and your part of the cup read you know, be it a you know, a wife of a sex adductor or a you know, daughter of you know, someone with a drinking problem, so it's you.
Know, yeah, so is with with kind of the program, you know, the customizable program approach, holistic approach that you are advocating for, is it still black and white in the sense of if you're dealing with alcohol, it's you don't drink or you drink like there's no in between, Like there's no in moderation. It's still like if you're trying to get clean, there's no drinking at all.
Yeah, So I think that's also not helpful.
Abstinence only methods like or not for everybody, and so at harm reduction is so important, and I think that everybody has to find like the point of what we're trying to do, right is still the truth to ourselves, not prove something.
To anyone else.
And we really like what we encourage. What I encourage it for people just to remember that they told some truth to themselves somewhere along the way and that they're going to keep doing that, and that that is the point, right, like of where what decisions you make for yourself.
I would just like to say too, just to you know, the only reason why I drink red wine is because I've been told by my doctor that it actually has benefits. Like I won't drink any other do I drink any other alcohol? And if I heard that, Yeah, but if I heard that red wine was like actually not good for your heart, then I'd be like, Okay, I'm not drinking anymore because you know me, I'm so like health conscious, So really there to everyone, buy one brick at wines dot com.
Those studies were based on we're typically run on mail on men, and there are healthful components of found in red wine, but.
The list of.
Adverse effects are prey long.
And so I would I think, but so is sugars and cars, and like that's like yeah, and that's where I'm just like, God, like everything is bad. Everything will turn into like you now you gotta the cheese is bad for your gut, and this is bad for that, and you know the pasta that you eat is gonna like that's bad for you too. And I'm just like, I like, it's just too much.
You know, it is too much, and and that in of itself is its own problem and own sickness.
I think, like this is what Here's what I would say to that. Doctors.
I've worked in healthcare, and you know, I dated doctors, were friends of doctors. Doctors, aren't you know doctors have their their own opinions. You know, doctors often go to twelve step programs as part of their training. They're not addiction medicine. They're not reading the different studies on alcohol, and so what I would say is do your research on it on whether or not like red wine isn't
any different, it's still is ethanol in it. It's still as you know, as still as it's still the same thing. And recently there was an article that showed a truck driving on a handle of Tito's vodka, like literally they just put a Tito's vodecan.
And so we do want to do our own research.
We do want to understand and there's plenty of it out there now around the impacts on the body. But you're exactly right as well, which is there is there's there is so many ways that we're told that we you know, have to be how we have to eat and live, and that like idea of like perfection is in of itself really problematic. You know, we have to
make our own choices. And I think like there's there's also just this I always like to say, know what you can't f with, like know what you cannot mess with, And I think that we have to open the door to be able to look at the things in our lives that are actually really hurting us.
You know, Gwyneth Paltrow like.
Smokes a cigarette a week or I've read that she I don't know she still does, but there was a while where she was talking about how she has one American spirit on a Friday, you know, And so I mean that's very different than somebody that's smoking, you know, twenty cigarettes a day. But there's also a lot of gray area between those two things. And so I think it's really important that people ask themselves, is this negatively
impacting me? Or do I know what it is that I'm putting in my body again so I can make these choices. That really is where it's at. This isn't about oh, you can't drink anymore, like women can't drink anymore. It's not like the point of this. This is really the earth how it shows up in our lives.
You know.
Before we let you go, Holly, what's one thing to give to our listeners, Like, what's the one thing for you personally that you do that just on a daily basis that recenters yourself. Is it a morning routine? Is it something that you do just to kind of you know, share that with our listeners.
I meditate. I do have a pastma meditation.
Now I've been through I have really dedicated my that has been the cornerstone of my recovery. And I've been to like ten days silent workshops I've been to. I mean, I've done at all and I've really landed in as and going because the PASTAA instruction, and that's what I do every day and it's extremely helpful and beneficial.
That's my thing.
I love it. Have you ever done ayahuasca?
No?
I have not, No, but plant medicine is you know, has its place in addiction recovery.
Okay, where can our listeners find you and your book and everything else they need to know?
Yeah, and so I mostly currently contribute on Instagram, So it's that, Holly, and you can buy my book. Please look at independent booksellers. Please look at your local favorite bookstore. You can go to Target, you can go to Barnes and Noble, you can go to Amazon. It's everywhere. It's called quit like a woman.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much Holly for coming on wine down. We really appreciate it.
Appreciate it.
Great conversation.
I love it.
Okay, thanks Holly, thank you. Well that was some good combos.
Yeah, you know, it was really interesting and I just I appreciated her her delivery on things and just you know, making it known that it's okay for people to have different methods of getting somewhere, and especially her point. I mean, this just rains true for so many things across the board about just because your way of doing things is different than mine doesn't mean one's wrong, one's wrong or right.
You know.
It's just I respect that, and I think that the world and the country especially right now needs more of that kind of mindset for sure.
And I also think too, like sometimes it just can be so overwhelming where it's like this is bad for you, this is bad for you, this is bad for you. Can't have that, that's bad for you, And it's just like just you know, do your own research and then don't overdo it and see how it's serving you as well, you know. I mean, we're all smart, right, but love you guys, And I'm excited. We've got some really amazing
podcasts coming up. I mean, just to tease a few, James Lafferty, Stephen Coletti, which you know for my Tree Hillers, we've got Tiger Wood's mistress, so that's going to be a very intense kind of conversation. And I also have a little bit of a spoiler one of the winners from the bachelort seasons also is going to be on and I'm super pumped to talk to him. It's going to be y'all, stay tuned.