Picky Eaters

around this. Let's not have her scared of the pool. Here's my thing though with that is the lessons that she did in Los Angeles. I mean, of course she's crying in the very beginning, but she was awesome moving forward, and so I think it's one of those things where, yeah, it is that weird balance, like we're not sure like what to do, especially since we're the ones trying to

teach her. But at the same time, it's like, you know, last summer, she was you know, awesome at swimming, and she would swim to us and not have her floaties on, and in this summer she's terrified and has to have her floaties on. So I don't know if that's like a a normal thing where but it's you know, I don't think she's been traumatized. Last summer, she like we have a a photo of her being thrown up in the air. It's thrown her there and should lay in

the water. We'd look at each other under water. She would hold onto my neck. We dive like great swimming, and then all of a sudden, it's like she doesn't know how to swim. We'll talk to are some of our friends who have kids around the same age and older. They said, it's fairly normal with you know, because they go a whole season without being in the pool, so it's new again they have they're a little bit older

and more and they're maturing a little bit. They have different feelings about things, so it's a little bit more insecure and you know, so it's it's just been tough with that battle and not. But I don't know, I just I guess where are you at with it? I think with these situations, I'm almost I walk on on next shows too much because maybe I'm fearful of being

too hard. Maybe I'm fearful of being the way you know my parents were at times, or anybody's parents were at times right where it's just like, you know, shut up and get in or or whatever. And you're almost like, just give her the floaties, like who cares, She'll learn when she learns. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just would you be the same way with Jace. Yeah, that's the that's the thing, like even with Jason will be the same way. Has nothing to do with like it being

Jolly and versus Jason. It's has everything to do with well, I just say that because I know you say that, Like like that one kid at my gym last year, You're like, come on, kids, like stop the little bit a little boy versus if it was a girl. It's like, oh, are you okay? For sure? But with with this situation, I would be the same either way. And I because I've catch myself, I just want to be like Jolie just getting the water stop. Yeah, but I don't. I

don't do that. But that part of you that gets frustrated once too because they can't understand what we're when we're trying to explain to her, Jolie, last summer, you were a little fish. Now all of a sudden, you don't want to put your foot in without a floaty.

I wonder if we could get like a child psychiatrist, a psychologist, yeah, children's psychologists, because I think that would help us because I don't know, I don't know what the right thing to say or do is because I kind of lean in the way of just throw her in, you know, for sure, and she has to go underwater, like let's we're being too like But again, like you say, that's almost probably that maybe that's too aggressive and she,

you know, she she needs to go baby steps towards it. Again, So maybe if we had someone that could help us kind of guide us through some of the things that we're dealing with her, and especially when it comes to like today we have a a food specialist on a nutritionalist who deals with children, because you know, kind of

the same thing we're dealing with Jaces. We don't like, he won't eat anything, and it's frustrating because we're like, do we are are we at the stage where we were Jolie where it's like, okay, she doesn't eat or do you feed because kids are going to eat when they're hungry. It's my mom always said they're gonna eat when they're hungry, right, But we also have the routine of this is what time, dinner time is, and then if we offer all these things, and then do we

keep offering foods or what do we do? And he'll he'll crush something one night. The next night you'll try to get him the same thing. He'll act like he's never seen it before and doesn't want to touch it with a ten foot fork. So I'm so excited to talk to our guests later because we definitely need help with that. Um. But when it comes to the you know, the child psychology behind the children's psychology behind that, I don't. I honestly don't know what the right thing is to do.

I know that my annoyance levels heightened. Yeah, and let me to be honest about something or vulnerable about something, please. I have a fear. I'm terrified that, you know, if I pushed the kids too much, that they'll feel the way I did about like my dad at times. And like I'm so terrified of that. Oh that makes me TiO, I know, And like I don't want my kids to

ever think like I'm too hard on them. I don't want my kids to ever think like that I don't love them, that I don't have their back, that I'm there to support them no matter what, which I know, you know, my dad always was, but because of the way he was treated, you know, it's a generational thing.

It's I understood that he did the best that he could and and all of that, and I love my dad at death, but I just know how as a kid, how I received certain things that he did, and I'm just I'm fearful of of our kids receiving things the way I did as a kid because I was a sensitive kid, and I just so it was with something

like this. This is why it like racks my brain a lot, because I'm just get her the floating just like now, I'm I don't want you to ever feel like like I wouldn't want them to feel the same way that you did, and nor do I want you to feel that, because it's in a way you're simultaneously getting triggered right right, And you know, it's just it just sucks because it's it's all everything in moderation. Everything in life is about moderation. But as I can't always

do that because then they're gonna be soft. Is putting like, you know what I mean, and we don't want that because you and I are two hardheaded, strong people. So it's it's just that balance. And but because Jolie is getting older and at this age she'll start to remember things more, you know, four going on five, I'm just really terrifying, right, I'm just tiptoeing around around these kind of things a little bit more. I'm gonna get that.

I appreciate you sharing. Yeah, I definitely can empathize with that, and you know, and I can lean into you in those moments, like if there's something where you can say like, hey, I'm I'm feeling childhood here, where then I can step into that. You don't maybe have to be that to get triggered on, do you know what I'm saying? Where then I can either be the which I don't always want to be, which you don't always want to be the dresser, or the one that you know gets like

that balance each other out there. Yeah, But I mean in those situations, if you ever start to feel that, like in the moment, I guess to express that to me so that way I can help you out so that you don't I might need I might need to tag you in be like, hey, I don't know how to navigate this right now because of my own Yeah, that's that's that would be the best thing, you know, for for everybody involved, you know, because I don't want you feeling that way. You don't want to go back

on Jolie or Jason, you know. And and then I'll kind of assess the situation to see, Okay, do we push or do we not push or you know, or because you're right, I mean, what is too hard for

the kid. But also again, they still have to have certain boundaries, which I think we do great out we both when it comes to respect for people, in respect for us and um and listening and stuff like we we give her chances and then it's like k, third strike, your outgo to your room, which I think we're good with that, but yeah, when it comes to extracurricular things where it's you don't want to be too hard, And I've caught myself being like, Julie, why would you do that?

You know, And I think to myself, I'm like, the second I said that, I was like, because she's for Janna. That's why she did that. Because she doesn't know any better. So instead of saying why would you do that? Maybe say hey, let me tell you why maybe we shouldn't do this so that they actually understand. But I have caught myself do that a few times and I feel so crappy afterwards, like why would you put your foot in the laundry basket when? And then why would you

stand on to matchbox cars? That's that was today. She was standing at trying to like skating around the house with two matchbox cars under her feet. But again, she's a kid. That sounds that sounds fun. Why don't we go skate around with max match box cars under our feet? You wouldn't have to tell me with a good time? Too too hard at that I could go out there and try it right now. But yeah, it's just I don't know. It's just tough to navigate that stuff as parents.

And it's like I feel like there's ends of the spectrum, right. It's like I contribute our work in therapy to even be able to acknowledge that that I don't just jump to the negative and it's like, well, you know, this is how I was reading situations, So that's how it's done, and just do it or be the opposite end, where it's like you don't want to do that so much so that you enable them and then they never do anything for themselves and then you're just ruining their life

as they get older, you know. So it's I'm trying to do the work here, and we're both trying to do the work by acknowledging both sides of things and discuss things like this with y'all and with each other. But it's just that stuff that comes up there. You're just like, damn, parenting is hard and there's no there's

no rule book for it either. But I would really like to talk to I mean, because we a psychologist, a children's you know, psychologist would be great for that too, you know, because how to kind of balance that and um, yeah, we should look into that if anyone knows a good one too. D M s the One Down podcast. Um, thanks for sharing, Mike, I appreciate it. And when you're in that situation again, please just kind of be like, hey, podcast episode triggered dag copy. Um, let's take a break

and then when we come back. Jennifer Anderson, she's I've stalked her on Instagram for quite a while now because of Jason's eating habits. Um her her her instagram as Kids Eating Color I'm super excited to talk to her. Help help us. Um, we'll be back. So I'm so excited because boy, do we need help? And you track this person down. Oh, I straight up flit into her d m S. I was like, hey, I swear like I'm not a stalker, but I'm stock you every day. He and I need I need more help. Um we

have on the show. Um, Jennifer Anderson who is Kids Eating Color um on Instagram. I'm obsessed with her. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Jan I'm Mike. Um. I just I don't even know where to start because I kind of feel a little helpless when it comes to what's going on with Jace and his eating patterns. It's just becoming where I just throw my hands out and I'm like, fine, have this. I don't like because it's just that was you yesterday when you're trying to

feed him dinner. Yeah. I was just like, all right, crackers here, Like, sorry, Jennifer, don't be mad at me, but it's just so you're a dietitian and a mom of two boys. Um, so you're you know you're you're in it. How old are your boys right now? They are four and six but about to be five and seven. So you went through all the you know, the toddler phases of refusing to eat and all that. Yep, we have started. I had one kid fall off the growth chart.

My other one has been very selective and continues to be because selective eating starts early and it doesn't go away right away, you know. So what how did you start your Instagram? Was it just that you knew other moms were desperate for help? You know what it was because I was desperate for help, and I thought. I stood in my kitchen and I had been making these cute little lunches for my three year old, trying to get him to eat because he tends not to eat enough.

And I stood there and I thought to myself, I cannot be the only mom struggling like this, And it turns out I wasn't. And so I just started posting cute little pictures of his lunches and little feeding tip tips in the captions, and and pretty soon people are like, oh my gosh, when I do this, my child eats, my child eat broccoli, My child to eating more food, and I became just obsessed with helping other parents feed their kids. And now you have almost a million followers

because of that. So you're like, she's like yeah, Like I was like, you know what, I cannot be the only person, And it turns out no, I'm not the only person, not at all. Um, do you kind of want to tell her what's going on with Jace? You know it's it's funny, how yeah. I mean, as you know, every kid is different, right, And Jolie, our daughter, four year old, has always been a fantastic eater, I mean amazing, seamless.

And Jason has been fantastic and like every other area except for when it comes to eating, and he's been super picky. And the frustrating part for us is he'll crush something one day. The next day, if we get him the same thing, I won't want it. Nope, I don't want it. Like you literally just had Yeah you literally just have this chicken or this macaroni even macaroni and cheese. Are like, we know you love this, how

are you not eating it? And then I'll also say to just to like book and that where he we know that he would love spaghetti or a cookie or something like that, and he will refuse to eat it. We're to the point where Michael and I have had to hold his head to try to like just taste it,

and he screams. And then when he tastes it, he's like, oh, I like it, and we're like, a we told you you would like it, you know, And we've done the whole trick, like mommy, eat one, like feed mommy, and then we try like we've done everything, and we don't know what to do because we probably know holding his head and shoving food in his face to give him to try it is not the right thing to do. Well. That tells me right there that you guys are good

parents and you know what you're doing. Sometimes we do things when we're totally desperate and we're like this cannot be the right way, and then as like there are

other options for you. How old is Jase. He's eighteen months eighteen months, so that's like right at the like some of the hardest times of picky eating, And you guys have an amazing opportunity because what you do right now can either set you on the path of him becoming more picky and or really turn the tide and give him the freedom to learn to become a better eater. My guess is because your daughter, your four year old

daughter is has always eaten great. You are thinking, You're probably thinking to yourself, it can't be our fault, right, Well, I will say this though, Remember that time where she'd only eat mac and cheese, and the only way we got her and this is Jennifer, You're gonna think this is awful. The only way we got her to eat something other than mac and cheese is we would turn on TV so that she didn't notice that she was eating a piece of broccoli. Well, and we're it was

when she was old enough to negotiate. So it's like, if you take a bite of this, like, will will push play on the TV. And once we got her in the habit of eating that stuff, then we cut the t V out. And again it's some might shame or judge on that. But now she's four and she

eats everything. Yeah. Yeah, So what I can tell you is, um, there are other things you can do that may take a little bit more time, but a little less effort on your because then you probably had to wean her off the TV, and that probably wasn't fun and that all things. So I will say what I can tell right now is you guys are problems solvers. You want to future kids the best way possible. I never ever judge ever. Remember I had a kid fall off the

growth chart heating kids. It's really tricky. I have nothing to say. Um, I definitely just went and bought a piece of last night because I was like, this day is too much for me. So you know, if you need to talk to somebody who's not going to judge you and it's going to see you as a problem solver, than you came to the right amazing. So help us? How do we? How do we? Because it's so frustrating when I know he would like something and he doesn't eat it right or try it, just try it, like

try mic. My guess is Jason as a and you can tell me if I'm right wrong. Is a really strong kid who's really creative and knows what he wants and maybe has opinions. He's definitely getting an opinion for sure, starting to spike out. Yeah, so that's awesome, right. That means you have have a super fun, awesome kid. I have to extraordinarily opinionated kids. That makes them very exciting. It also at times makes them difficult to feed, right, because my guess is he really has an opinion about

what is going in his mouth. And what we see with kids and eating is, yeah, you can force them. You could turn on the TV, you can get them to eat, you can bribe them with candy, and well, that may work for some kids, like it did for your daughter. A lot of times, it just creates more

problems that we have to deal with later. And so what we want to do is we want to use some of those evidence based strategies that teach kids how to eat and take the stress off of us, because you guys sound like you're stressed, right, It's just frustrating. Like five, When five o'clock rolls around, I start to panic, like, oh God, like is this gonna be We're gonna pull our hair out and he's gonna scream? Is he gonna throw everything and not eat? You know, or try your

blood pressure? Your blood pressure is going up. It's like, oh my gosh, five o'clock. You are not alone. There are so many parents who have that feeling like I've felt it myself, Like you're like, oh my gosh, there're one one woman in my feeding program better bits. She said, Um, I feel like I'm preparing for a world war battle every time I go to sit down in a meal. So you're not alone. The first thing that I always recommend parents do. The first thing is start by saying, oh, hey,

you don't have to eat it. Don't even give it to them. Put it on the table, sit down, have a family meal together. Make sure you have a meal. Make sure you have a food that you know he likes. That macaroni and cheese you were talking about is perfect, right, put it down on the table. Hey, we're all going to sit down for the meal. Don't put anything on his plate. I find that eighteen month olds usually like look around at that point and they're like, why didn't

you give me any food? And but you dish up your plate, dish up your daughter's plate, enjoy the food. Oh my gosh, this macarny cheese is so good. Now, your point in doing that is not to like put on a show, because even eighteen month olds know when you're putting on a show. Right, he sounds like a smart kid, So what he needs to know is that he actually doesn't have to eat anything. He doesn't want to nothing, and at that point he may ask for something.

You may say, you know, wear mine or macaroni or you know, whatever he likes to say or point or a sign, you know, wherever he's at with that. So I find that to be one of the absolute most effective strategies. When you, as a parent, stop carrying what

they actually eat at the meal. And I know this is like impossible, so pretend like you you don't care what they eat at the meal, keep it totally cool, and you enjoy your food and don't give them any And I actually one time saw my kids eat a hole bowl of staff, like a whole large bowl of salad because I told them that I didn't think they wanted it, and I only had made some for myself, and they were very unhappy with that, and they just ate it, and I was like, oh, okay, So what

happens If he doesn't eat any of it, then that's when the parenting comes in. That's when it gets tough. So at every single meal, I always recommend you include at least one food that he really is comfortable with. So picky eaters you have to remember and most people don't understand this, but most picky eaters are picky for a reason. They around you know, a year, even it can't start even earlier, they develop you know, separation anxiety.

They start to be afraid of things, which is good because they become more mobile and we don't want them wandering through the forest eating mushrooms. Of course, our kids generally aren't wandering through the forest, and so it begins problematic when they're not eating mushrooms that we've served on the table. But they begin to have what's called neophobia,

or the fear of something new. So food neophobia is very common, and it usually arrives usually between twelve months and thirty six months, but it can show up as late as like four or five. So my guess is he there's something about it. Either he's feeling pressure from you and he wants to like engage you in that that uh, you know, power struggle, or he's actually afraid of it. Maybe he looks at the food and he's like, mm hmm, that color one time, I ate that color

might tummy felt weird. I can't tell you about that, but we've seen examples of even babies being given medicine on a blue spoon suddenly will never eat any food off that blue spoon. Because even at a very very young age of six months, nine months, twelve months, they can develop these associations between heiny details and a experience that they had that was very traumatic to them or

very unpleasant. Maybe they ate something and then they threw up later and you didn't think anything of it, but you know that happened, so um, that is something that you've got to keep in mind. He's picky for a reason. He's really not trying to get at you. He's just trying to protect himself and act like a like an eighteen month old, and you know that's something. So when you set him down to the table, don't ever ever ever get them something else. Just make that rule and

keep it. I guess that's where I'm like, and that's their choice, right, And this is where you really have to kind of dig down deep and think, Okay, there are going to be times, and I mean, I think my kids have maybe made this choice maybe like three times. There are going to be times when they choose not to eat, but it's probably because they're actually not hungry. Because toddlers are notorious for listening to the everybody. So the first year of life, they triple in size. That

means they need a ton of calories. I mean they will. I mean maybe maybe when your daughter she was always been a great eight here, right, maybe when she was told months old, one time she ate as much as you did or something that's totally normal. But then one day she ate three bites of food the entire day. And that's actually totally normal toddler behavior. So one day they'll eat as much as you. The next day they will eat like three bites of food the whole day,

and then they kind of go over. But what research shows is they do eat enough over the course of the week, over the course of the month to maintain their growth. What about if it's him afraid to try something like is that a thing like do you Obviously you don't hold the head down like waves to feed, but like, is it just keep showing them that food to say here, maybe try and then if not, like,

then you don't force it. Right. So once you're willing to kind of take off the pressure and step back and just just let the let the actual eating go for a while, um, then you can begin these other methods. But before you really get them to try food I first recommend just take take a step back. Remember it's your job to put the food on the table, it's their job to decide whether or not to eat it. From there, you can really step back and say, Okay,

how are we going to move forward? Because once he knows that you're never going to make him eat anything, suddenly it's all within his control. It's all within his control to decide what he's going to do. So after you've established that that you, as a parent, you're going to decide when you're going to eat as a family. You're going to decide what you're going to eat as a family. You're gonna side where you're going to eat

as a family. Those three things are the things you are in charge of, So don't make them in another meal if he doesn't want it. Just make sure there's always at least one food that you know he generally likes. Now I realized one day he doesn't like it, one day he does. But macaroni cheese is generally a safe food, So put that on the table. I think it's just hard because it's like I know he's hungry, Like we know he's hungry, he's just refusing to eat it. Because

if we give him something else, he downs it. Yeah, he's he's big into fruit. And my fear kind of where you're talking about Jennifer, you're saying, you know, one of your boys fell off the growth chart, and that's where our son kind of is when it comes to like his height, right, Yeah, he's like so they're guessing a five nine, So question, has he always been at that height? Yeah, he's always been little. So that's normal, right,

which is also totally normal. Um, So what we are most concerned about now he started at the and then went to and then went to the That's when you have to be concerned. People come in all shapes and sizes. Being on percentile is great, and if he mostly maintains that, give or take, you know, fifteen percentiles or so, then he's fine and you would want to check in with your pediatrician just to make sure he's growing. But if he's like losing a lot of percentiles, then you have

to worry. Otherwise you don't have to be at the fiftie.

It's it's no problem. So if you know he likes fruit, you can always have fruited meal, and there may be meals where he just fills up on fruit and that I'm try that's okay as a mom, Like I'm getting hives about it because it's like, no, he has to be because I see your post and like, no, he has to have his protein, he has to have this color, and then he has to have this color, and and so I just I put so much pressure to make because I I just I want him to not just

eat fruit, but think about how much protein he needs. He's eighteen months old. Let me, I you don't have to tell me his weight, but let's say to seven. Okay, so let's say you know, however much he weaves. They need a very small amount of protein for their body. So my kids and probably him roughly needs about sixteen grams. That's two glasses of milk. Oh wow, Okay, that makes me feel a little bit better because that's that's that's

where my concern has been. Is I just make up in my head that, Okay, he's theentile because he's hardly eating the protein that compared to our daughter. And I'm you know, that's unfair for me to compare two kids, right, but every parent I feel like kind of does that. I think you just are I think afraid your son is going to be a little shorter. And by the way, when I meant to say huge, my daughter, she's just larger on the like her percentile is is larger than

from what Jace was. Um, I do have a question though, regarding my daughter. So for the longest time, like she she was having a problem, like eating all of our food. So we said, let's do a happy plate. So if you make a happy plate, then you get a candy. Well, now she's at the age where she's wiping her plate. And last I think I said this last night, right, baby, I said, hey, we need to stop now giving her candy because she knows she's making she makes a happy plate,

like we're hardless. And now I'm like, okay, we can't keep she can't keep having a dessert or a cookie after the meal. But then in my mind, I'm like, well, is that a bad thing? Or should I say, like, hey, do you want cut up watermelon or fruit? Instead? Like is it bad to still reward her for cleaning her plate? So what we know from rewarding is the more re the more we reward, the more kids hold that food in high regard. So when we say if you eat your vegetables, you get a cookie. What we say is

vegetables are bad. What they hear vegetables are bad, Cookies are good. And that just perpetuates on and on and on. And the more the longer we use that model, the more built up dessert yets and the more potentially obsessed and you know, all this stuff about dessert, and the less the research shows, the less intrinsic internal desire they have for that food that we're trying to get them to eat. So what I recommend to take dessert off the pedestal, make it a non on issue. It's fine

to include dessert if you want to. If your family culture is to have dessert every night, that's perfectly fine. If it's not, that's also perfectly fine. But let's say you want to have dessert. The easiest way to get kids eating their meals and also so um, not obsessing about dessert is actually to serve dessert with the meal. Now I know this sounds crazy. I see look on your face. Is the little kid inside of me is like, yes, wouldn't they eat that first? Yeah? Right? And that's okay,

Oh my god, I'm having so much anxiety. No, yeah, I was raised after had a cookie before dinner. I mean now I have. Now I have because I'm an adult, Like whatever you want, Yeah, you should try it. Oh, I don't know, fascinating, I don't know. Now. One thing you want to think about is let's be practic. Goal. We're parents, you know when our kids need do they need to fill up on cookies? No? No, we don't want them filling up on cookies. So we give kids

a child sized portion. Now, for an eighteen month old, a child's aze portion could be one chocolate chip. I mean, my kids were into one chocolate chip through age three because they just you know, that was just kind of how we grew up. I was like, let's start as small as possible. So whatever it is. My my guess

is if Jason knows. Now Jason is a little young, but if he already knows, because usually a second kids there, they get the cookies like super early, right, um, but you know, if they haven't had it, you could delay it as long as possible. But once they know about dessert, if and if his sister is having dessert and he really wants and on that, just make sure it's a tiny child chin an amount that they could not fill up on. Now, there may be times where all they

eat is that item. Those times become so few because they realized that they're hungry and you're not going to give them a snack until the next schedule mealer snacks. So I highly recommend having an eating teen where you have the meals and the snacks planned out. Even Jason at eighteen months old, is going to be able to understand um, kitchen closed or lights out, or snack after nap. You know, you could turn these things into you know, three words sentences where you tell him no snack now,

snack after nap or or whatever it is. The reason we want that is because we want them to come into the table hungry. You already know he's hungry, so it sounds like you have a good pace for your

meals and snacks. And if they choose to only eat a part of a cookie, it's true they may that one time be fussy until the next meal or snack, but it will pay off once they understand the routine, like, Okay, we're only going to have food at these times that mom and Dad say, We're only going to eat what's available, and what you're usually providing is at least one safe food and a variety of other foods, including protein and these things, And you can think of it over the

course of a day, like what did Jason eat over the course of the whole day? He only ate fruit for breakfast, that's true, But because he ate four cups of fruit for breakfast, you know, I don't really need to serve fruit for the rest of the day. So instead I served him milk and uh, you know, because with cheanut butter on it, and then I served him, you know, these other things over the course of the day.

So if you change or shift, you shift your mind to think what is he eating over the course of the day, what is he eating over the course of the week. Is he mostly hitting all the food groups over time? Then I don't have anything to worry about. And I already know he's staying on his growth chart, so it sounds like he's getting what he needs. And what maybe what he most needs right now is for me. How much every calm down? Okay, Well, I feel so

much better, Jennifer. I cannot thank you enough. I feel like maybe you feel better too, especially how last night's dinner went. Um, Jennifer Anderson, please follow her on Instagram if you've got a kid and you're struggling, or you just want to have like I look at your page two just to see different meals because I kind of get bored of, you know, doing the same meals for j So I've just I've really enjoyed following your page.

It's kids eating color Um And just thank you so much for for letting us um stock you and have you on the show. We really appreciate absolutely than Jennifer. Its wonderful Bye bye. Okay, so a lot of good tips from Jennifer. Do you feel a little bit better now kind of with our plan of attack here? Yes, but also because just doesn't go by the no, there's no. I mean I've offered every day something, so it's how many days? Hey, look and we say this a lot.

Jason has been like the perfect baby exaptyone comes to his eating. So if he was a great eater like his sister was, he would have been like flawless. Like literally this is like the biggest peniast thing he does. That's very true. So moving on to our next segment, what have we done wrong lately? Did you like that? And that right there is how a new segment is born What have we done wrong lately? What have we

done wrong lately? We need a jingle for that. I feel like that's it, I know, but like a little instrumental in the background like Easton will get him on. So this is the game that we like to play called what have we Done wrong Lately? You first start? You started, You gotta get you gotta set the stage here, kids, Okay. Um, so the rules we say one thing that's been bothering us, and we cannot be defensive back when uh we get the thing. So you're you're saying what I've done wrong lately?

So we're not calling ourselves out. That's boring. That was totally where I was going with this. Remember our game, how we say one thing that's bothering? Like how so we don't like whole things, but we can do Let's look in the mirror now, alright? What have I done wrong lately? Um? No, remember, but that was the game that we did. I let's pick on my game. That's not that's to do it to me too. Just why

I said you go first? Um. When I wake up in the morning every morning, when I wake as a hello hanging from my girlfriend Philipos Bad and that song John Mellencamp. I don't know sugar every um no, but every morning when I wake up, there's a plate with a bowl and catchup that's so disgusting. You eat your chicken nuggets at one am and you leave the bowl of ketchup awful in the thing, and it looks so

gross that we have to sing ours. It's gross and it stinks like ketchup when I wake up in the morning. It stinks like at chip when I wake up in the morning. Yeah. Um. And by the way, I meant to get pitchy at the end of the last round, so I'm in to go tone deaf. Um. So yeah,

that's one thing. So if we could just kindly maybe I know it's one o'clock in the morning, wherever you go eat your chicken nuggets with the ketchup bowl, if you could just kindly put it in the dishwasher, or at least if the dishwasher is running, if you could just wash out the catchup bowl and not because like you've put water in it, but then there's water overflowing and they'll just catch up all on the sink the next morning. And I'm like, good morning catch up. So okay, alright,

so leave it on your nightstand, got it perfect? Done your turn? What have you done wrong lately? Um? So, this has happened last night and it's something. It's the circumstances are different, but it's you'd like to reiterate. So like last night you were podcasting on our buddy Nick Knicks podcast, you know, realtor podcast, and I come in the office. I was about to take a shower. We had discussed earlier in the day that or earlier that evening that we're gonna hang out when you're done and

we're gonna watch a movie and whatever. I'm about to go shower. You're like, okay, when you're done showering, can like you can we watch a movie? And you're like reiterating something we already talked about. I'm like, yeah, yeah, and I go shot and I go walk to show. I'm like, why does she have to feel like she has to reiterate what we already discussed? And it just I don't know why, but it just like it bothers me. Okay, eats it all right? Good to know. I don't know

why either, but good to know. Do you think it's like you're worried that I'm going to bail maybe like or maybe it's just I don't because I'm so I'm such a planner, like okay, and then this is this and we check this off and then after that we do this. So I just like to I do. I like to reiterate a lot of things. Even when we have arguments, I reiterate yea or just anything like okay, so after a grocery store, you're going to go there? Or yeah. So I do do that a lot. I'm sorry,

I'll be more mindful of that. Thank you. You're all them. Well, and that was our first segment of what we've done wrong lately. Um, but since you wanted to look inside, let's look in the mirror. Now I'm gonna look in the mirror and I'm gonna say what can I work on? And oh god, what did I even start? Um, I've found myself getting a little Why don't you tell me

what I'm doing wrong? That's what? Just just kidding now, UM, I have found myself being a little just annoyed lately, just just a little because I don't know, I think I'm just ready to change scenery. So I just found myself getting a little agitated, and so I maybe just have to watch how we speak when agitated. What about you. Mike's like, I'm perfect. His face is like I'm good lately. I have been bad. Lately, I've been more patient. Um,

just making sure I'm as real time with things as possible. Yes, yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. It's just like whether I see something needs to be brought to your attention just for clarification, whether it's whatever, it is, just real time, so so you're aware and nothing feels like it's a secret or dishonest or it just helps everybody out. Yeah, for sure. I like it cool. Well, like the new segment, we'll see if it's sticks, just like our One Tree Hill,

see if that one sticks. Hey, So I'm on the wind Down podcast right now. Um, Stephanie has written me a few email else and I kind of wanted to talk this one out. Um, she's a one Tree Hiller. She says she appreciates, Um, you and I sharing our story as it has brought some normalcy to her own life. She goes into say, my husband and I have been dating or I'm sorry, I have been together for twelve years. Eleven years dating and one year married. About eight years ago,

we went through some infidelity. I found out he had been cheating on me for about a year. It took a whole lot of re building and counseling to get back to a good place. About four years ago, after a big fight, he attempted to cheat again. We again were able to rebuild and work through it. We got um engaged about two years ago and married a year ago. There are still times he will get extremely upset with me if I see his phone or ask who he

is texting. I do trust him, but there are times that my brain goes to that place, even if it was that long ago. It's starting to really wear on a relationship, and I honestly don't know what to do. Any advice would be really appreciated. So it seems like what he said, he gets up set. There are times he still gets extremely upset with me if I see his phone or ask who he's texting. Can I start this one, please? So two sides to his reaction, okay, um,

both both of which fall under the category of defensiveness. Uh. But two things I've been defensive A either because you know I'm hiding something or sometimes I'm even more defensive when I know that I'm not when I'm actually being honest and not doing anything inappropriate or wrong. Sometimes is added justification to defend my stance. So that being said, that could possibly be a reason why he's getting so frustrated. It's because he's like, I'm actually not doing anything, like

why do need to do that? Why do you need to stick on my phone? Why do you whatever? Also, just the way my personality is from my experience, the way you deliver to ask to see his phone, or I don't know if you're doing it without him knowing at all. If Janna came to me even now and said, hey, you know, I'm feeling just triggered on some things. You can I look at your phone? Are you cool? If

I go through your phone? Any chance of defensiveness, if there's nothing to worry about, and I know that there's nothing to worry about, any chance for me to being defensive goes out the window. If she asks like that. Now she asked like that, and I would still get defensive,

that's a red flag. So use that, not as I'm not trying to have you manipulate this situation, but use that as some sort of strategy because it can bring down his guard of defensiveness and kind of see gauge kind of where he's at with with things going on internally, for sure, Yeah, because that's if he's still defensive even when she's vulnerable. That But I feel like I will say, I don't know if it was always easy for you to even when I did say I want to, can

I see your phone? Like? It's still not. I don't think it's easy for guys to to give it up so easily. I think in the beginning that was you do it amazing, now amazing. But I think in the beginning, I don't. It's still hard. Yeah, it's still hard. Can I just ask why? Though? Just like so maybe she can understand, like if he is defensive, because my fear is that he's not going to be in a place you are now and he'll be defensive and then she's gonna think she's cheating, So like, I just want to

like soften the blow. It's still guys. I think all then have a degree of problem with feeling controlled, being parented, having someone oversee what they're doing, or anything like that, regardless of childhood wounds or no childhood wounds. I just feel like majority of men have that kind of struggle. So with you know, even if you ask innocently, it's so definitely possible two for someone to be defensive because you think you under why like why would you possibly

need to see my phone? Well, I mean you could have easily gotten upset with me. And I felt I heard a little bit of it on the phone today when I called you when you were at the store. Um, like I I heard in your voice, like what I heard you say was like in your little like head was I'm at the wine store buying new wine, like in your triggered like because it's like and I heard that monologue even though you weren't saying it, but you know, because well, I mean I'll just what can I share? Like, um,

because an incident had happened in the car. Sometimes I do get triggered if I look at the app or whatever and I'm like, man, he's been at the grocery store a long time, and I get a little triggered sometimes. And today was one of those moments because you we talked on the phone and you're like, oh yeah, yeah, I'll run in back real fast because it's it was a girlfriend's birthday, and I was like, I kind of

wanted to drop off flowers at the front door. So I was like, hey, babe, do you mind just running in real fast? He's like yeah, absolutely, Like I'm I just put the bags in the car and I'll know,

I'll get it and i'll be back. Well, you know, about thirty ish minutes later, I look and he's still there, and so I just felt this wave of just a little trigger and I'm like, you know what, and said, I'm just going to call him because I can call him, you know, and I'm just gonna say hey, like everything good, you know. And I was like hey, babe, like where are you out And You're like, oh, hey, I'm in

the wine store. And I was like, oh, okay, I just I saw that you were still there and and I just I got a little trigger and you go and you were kind of like okay, And at that moment, I was like I heard you'd be like god, i I'm not even I'm not doing it. I'm doing something for you, and you're still triggered, but like maybe you can maybe understand no I do, I'm sorry you received

my okay that way. What's interesting is during that conversation, yeah, my okay was probably because I was thinking in my head, I was like, okay, wh actually get triggered. And then you even said, well we're on the phone. You said you're running, you know, right back in the flower And when you're saying that, in my head, I'm like, oh, yeah, this this makes complete sense. Like I said, I was just going to run in and grab these flowers and

I'll be on my way back. Then I saw it right next door that the wine store had opened, so I was like, oh, you know, you're getting thin on your wine wall. So sympathy mama. So I totally understood. But it's just it's sad though that I even like I felt bad, that I even had to like I felt bad for you, Like I felt bad. I was like, man, like he was doing something, he was trying to do something nice for me and I had to call and I wasn't I wasn't mean or anything. I was just like, hey, like,

what are you doing? Like just had a little bit of a trigger. But I think that's just to say and just like with Stephanie, it's I want you to know that it's normal to feel triggers kind of out of the blue and have and want to kind of have that check in when you might get triggered and I think you're holding it in, can then make it go sideways, because I could have maybe held that trigger in and then been passive aggressive bitch to you when you got home and been like, well that took long,

or like what were you really doing? That would have been like maybe five years ago, but yeah, but that was that was what I would do again, like five years ago. But now it's like, hey, like that was just kind of I got a little trigger and like and just like mentioned like saying it and speaking it and then you're reassuring and not being defensive makes those moments lesson each time. So like the less Stephanie your husband's defensive, the less you the less you get triggered.

And also the more you feel reassured in those moments because I was like, oh, I'm so sorry, like I just okay, thanks, like you know, and then it was like over um. But it's it's kind of crazy to think about two and not to keep going on this. But like when we have that Jason guy, that that book that you read to the author and we kind of asked, like when when will the triggers go away?

And he's like, never, like the lesson, but they'll like they'll always still kind of be there, right for both of us, Right, I mean you still you still have your own triggers with you know, certain things too. Yeah, I mean everyone and everyone varies, but yeah, for sure.

And you know, I think, all right, like this, take this for example, I have some friends that if they went out tonight and say, I mean, we're kind of past age of really getting drunk and all that, but say they go out and get drunk and you know, their phone dies and they don't talk to their wife until the next morning. Yeah, no one loves that. But I have plenty of friends and couple of ships that they'd like, they'd like laugh at each other, but like you idiot, you know what I mean, Like it just

wouldn't be a big deal. Could we ever do that? No, you know what I mean. So it's that that kind of benefit the doubt if something like this happens does grow out the window to a certain degree, I mean yeah, I mean, which nobody should be in a situation where it's like necessarily okay, if that happens but if it happens, there are some couple of ships that they laugh about it, and then there's others like ours, where it's like that, ain't that ain't happening. So it's just you know, it's

a spectrum. But again, if you read and pre order The Good Fight, we talk about different kinds of boundaries and ways to deal with triggers, and um, yeah, so not to like if I'm just saying like we you know, we've worked on so many different ways to like kind of express that and deal with certain triggers that might come. So for sure, pick up your copy. Okay, let's do one more email and then um, it's time to say goodbye. Um anonymous, still still yearning to become a mom? How

do I forgive myself? Okay? Um, I'm forty five years old, have been with my husband since two thousand six. During his previous marriage, we had a vasectomy, or during his previous marriage, he had a vasectomy. At thirty nine years old, we decided to go through infertility as my clock had already ticked beyond the scary point. We got pregnant very easily, but at our twelve week check up, my will be g y n saw a concerning sign with our ultrasound. The gray area at the base of the skull most

likely meant Down syndrome. Being raised Catholic, I was blessed that God shows us to raise the special child. My husband did not feel the same. He stopped touching my belly and it put a strain on our relationship. After speaking with a therapist and hearing the thoughts of our family and friends, I could see and understand his fear. Still today, I regret the decision to terminate our pregnancy.

It has been almost six years since we said goodbye to our angel, and I can't forgive myself for this decision. How do I get through this and forgive myself? That's tough. That makes me like teary eyed. You know, this is one of the situations because anyone who goes through having children, you you have this discussion a little bit, you know, And that's why anyone who has had a child is having a child. Understand why when people ask do you want to borrow a girl? And when it gets close,

people say, I just pray that they're healthy. I'm not saying that children with Down syndroom aren't healthy. I'm just saying complications, any kind of health complications, any kind of complication. Everyone just wants their child to be healthy. And you know they run tests for these kind of things. Um, that's why they do what they do. And it's one of those situations that I don't know how to answer

to an extent, because nobody knows. Just like a lot of things, nobody knows what they're gonna do until they're in that situation. I know plenty of people with child with special needs of some sort, and they couldn't be happier, couldn't imagine their life without them. And but I will say, you know, that's after the fact, after the child's born, there in their life. Now, how did they feel when they found out? How did they feel when they first saw their child? You know, were they that happy in

that moment? Some may maybe some may have honestly not been, because that is a life long commitment, just like having any child. But they are in your care for the rest of your life mostly so, M this is hard. I think what hurts too is like that she hates herself for the decision that she made. And I just the decision was made and now you have, you know,

your life to still live and you. What I just would hate for you is to continue to hate yourself for a decision that you chose, whether it was right or wrong. That's your um, Like you have to you have to now move on in a sense where it's hating yourself is not going to make any any of the situation better, Like it's do you know what I'm trying to say, Like it's um, there's not anything now that can be done now, but hating yourself is. I

think you should definitely talk to someone. Yeah, which just says she's you know, spoken to a therapist. But I would too, because I mean it doesn't say anything about your and your husband not being together still, So I would probably have if it was me, Like and then maybe this sounds really bad, but like I would resent my husband, Like if you said that to me, like I would resent, I would resent you. I would like

I don't I'm not asked, I'm not. I don't want you to, you know, the woman who wrote this, Like I I think that's wrong too, But I think part of me would resent you that you didn't love our baby no matter what. That would be hard for me. And then that that decision was made because of your distaste for it. I guess mm hmm, that would be kind of a hard pill to swallow. Yeah, I mean it's tough. But what I would say now is lean into your husband about it. Not from a resentful, blaming place,

but just tell them how you feel. Yeah. No, for sure, I'm not saying like to resent I'm just like, yeah, which I wouldn't blame you, I wouldn't blame anybody, but yeah, I definitely, like you said, lean in for sure and talk to him how you feel. And because it's it's but it was y'all's decision that you guys made, you know, together, Still, essentially it was y'all's decision, So don't feel like you have to do this alone. Lean into him, just telling

how you feel, be honest. That's just hard. But we appreciate you, Sharon. Yes, thank you for sharing um D M S the wind Down podcast. If you guys have any questions or anything else you want us to talk about, all right, see you next week. Bye guys. M