Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
All right, well, we have a very special guest in studio. I love saying that in studio with us. Elizabeth Smart, Thank you so much for coming on wind Down.
Thanks for having me.
We are so this is It's hard because I don't want to say that. I'm so excited to talk to you because obviously your story is is a tough one and it's I can't imagine how hard it is for you. But thank you for doing what you do because it's helping so many people. So for that, I'm excited for that conversation.
Thank you.
As you were walking in, we were chatting and kind of getting to know each other and I found out that you also have a Scottish husband.
So do I do?
Yeah? Aberdeen from Alveldeen. Yeah, it spent a year an aveultin coat you.
He used to be the assistant coach in Aberdeen.
Oh.
When I told my husband that I was coming to speak with Jana, he looked her up and then he's like, oh, she's married to a footballer.
Oh he was a coach.
Oh he he's an Aberdeen And I was like and he's like, oh he spells his middle or he spells his name the same.
Way I spell my middle name.
Yeah, you kind of sound Scottish as you're talking.
Well, yes, Scottish is good. Jana's is Russian.
Mine just turns Jamaican and it's a bitch. I don't know what happens to me. Wait, do you have a Scottish Can you impersonate your husband?
I feel like I do, Okay, but if you were here, he'd be like, stop embarrassing yourself, Like that's so bad.
Just stop.
What is like a phrase he usually says, and try it in Scottish.
Don't like, Yeah, that's great, that's so good, that's great.
How long have you been married?
Thirteen years?
Okay, I think there's hope for you, Kraamer. I just like he said, I sound Russian. The only thing I can say, which he says all the time, is.
She thinks she can say it still.
I want to be supportive, but I got to tell you, I'm not sure what that was.
I and I love you. You do a lot of things really well.
I know, I just can't, I know, really can't.
Well that's an Aberdeen fun Yeah?
Is I mean Manchester United? More?
But when Aberdeen plays. He always has his Aberdeen kid. Yeah, I mean I did not grow up playing soccer.
I don't football. You mean, well, yes, I don't play it. I didn't watch it.
But now now he's like, Elizabeth, do you understand what off sides is known?
Like R offside is?
I was like no, same still No, I'm a year into our marriage and were I still have no idea. I didn't know anything about soccer when I met him, like nothing football.
Sorry, let's talk about the pace of your husband's.
A life pace they have a problem with my laid back?
Is that also your husband?
He just doesn't answer until he's ready.
Like I can speak to him all day and he'll just like sit there. I don't even know if he's listening until he's ready to answer. So it might be I feel thirty seconds later, might be like ten minutes and I'm like, have you been listening?
He's like, what, Dana, how do you feel about that sentence?
I just feel seen as well?
Good?
No, But I will say though, and I don't know if you've was he your first serious relationship?
Your husband? I mean I dated a lot, sure, but sure?
Yeah? And you guys have two kids, three kids, three kids, what are the ages?
Nine?
Seven and my youngest just turned six.
I feel like they're amazing men. That's one thing I've dated as well of plenty of times, and he was.
There's such just something about am I on one today, Kristin. Really I just couldn't love you Moore. I think I also just miss you. So every word you're saying, I'm like hanging on because I just feel like I haven't seen you, but you really are gragging me up. There is something about Scottish men though. They just do it better in a lot of ways.
Wow, I'm just saying.
It everything and love and romance and one thing I can say, and maybe this is just observing, because we went over for the wedding and we got to.
Be like we were all just in Scotland in July. We got married there, well, congratulations, thank you so much.
It was really fun to be like submerged, you know, and we all stayed in a state together, like a little castle together. So it was like a little bit like Real World meets Real Housewives of Scotland. I don't know, but we had a really really good time. One thing I observed about Scottish men is the certainty that they have and I don't know if they firmly believe what
they're saying, but it feels like it. So with every decision made, I feel like, like, even when Alan gets in the room, I feel like I fix my posture, like I'm like, okay, we're like he's They're just very like assertive but also so certain. Does that feel fair? I think it's fair to say they don't do anything halfway?
Yees.
And then for me, not that I think I do things halfway, but now being married to someone, I feel like he holds me to like an even higher expectation and be like, well, did you ask this? Did you ask that Elizabeth? Did you get any of the details whatsoever? And I'm like, I thought I did, but apparently not.
Is there a little inflexibility? This question goes to just the ladies, they're very Yeah, feels that way, strong suggestions. Wow, that was delicately right, But we'll go away from that, bab. I don't want you to feel Scottish Spousal Support Group.
Yes, yeah, so I'm going to read a piece of this and then The abduction of Elizabeth Smart was one of the most followed child abduction cases of our time. Elizabeth was abducted on June fifth, two thousand and two. Her captors controlled her by threatening to kill her and her family if she tried to escape. For those that do not know your story, I know it very very clear, very I mean I just remember following it on the news. I mean it was everywhere.
But for those that are listening that don't know your story, could you tell us from your words?
Sure? Yeah.
So born and raised in Utah, Salt Lake City, and like genuinely never thought anything interesting, out of ordinary crazy could happen to us. I mean I did not hear people's talk about crime. I didn't hear people talk about abuse. I didn't hear people talk about bad things that happened in our neighborhood where I grew up. I mean, the worst thing that I remember hearing people talk about girl up was I mean, if someone elderly was sick and died, that kind of felt like that was like the worst thing.
So it felt like a very safe neighborhood. It felt like a very nice neighborhood. It just didn't feel like anything could happen, And I mean, why why would it? As far as I could tell my family didn't have enemies or I don't know. I don't think there was anyone that like actively hated us that I knew of anyway. So it was just something that I never even contemplated happening. Plus, like, I'm just not I'm just not like a rebellious person.
I'm not like a I'm pretty, I'm pretty mild. Like I'm kind of a boying person truthfully.
And so I just when people would talk about oh, stranger danger or you know, don't take don't take candy from people you don't know, or don't walk by yourself at night, don't like, don't do this, don't do that, those cautions never bothered me because I would have never done those things anyway. And I just never thought I would be in that position myself. So it was right before I was about to graduate from junior High. Very excited to graduate from junior High.
I was quite an awkward person growing up, and.
I just was looking forward to high school. And I remember going to bed that night and I shared I didn't just.
Share a fourteen yes, yeah, I was fourteen. I didn't just share a room.
I shared a bed with my younger sister, who was about five years younger than I am, and I mean it was a good night, it was a good day, like nothing bad had happened. And the next thing I remember was hearing a man's voice in my bedroom, which I didn't immediately respond to, because how could that, How could that be real? I mean, my room was on the top floor of our house, wasn't like on the ground level. Why would a man be in my room and weren't allowed in my room like that just couldn't happen.
So I didn't immediately respond because I thought it just it had to be a dream or a nightmare or I don't know something. So I just laid there and then I heard the voice again, saying the same words again, saying I have a knife at your neck. Don't make
a sound, get up and come with me. And it was that second time that he said that that I actually felt a knife lying across my neck and I could feel his hand on my arm try and pull me out of bed, And I remember opening my eyes and sure enough there was this man, this strange man, standing in my room timeing to go with him, And like, of everything that you prepared for in life, nobody talks about, what do you do if someone breaks into your home
and kidnaps you out of bed. I mean, all the safety education you're given is like if you're out by yourself, if you're out at night, if you like, nobody talks about what do you do if someone breaks into your home or crawls into your bed, Like what do you do if your own space is violated? And since I didn't have the education, I didn't feel like there's anything I could do, so I did as I was told. I mean, I never had anyone hold a knife to my neck before, Like what was I supposed to do?
I remember he led me out through my house. He led me up into the mountains behind my home, which really like it's very difficult to get there. I mean I have since hiked back there a number of times. And one of the most memorable times that I hiked back was after I released my book, My Story About I guess it's probably been about I don't know, ten tenish years ago maybe, and I did this big sit down interview with Meredith Vieira, and she wanted to hike.
Back to where I was held captive.
And I was like, yeah, that's fine, and the camera crew was like Okay, yeah, like, how far do you think is I was like, oh, it's probably like three and a half miles, like not super far. I was like, but just so you know, like it's a pretty difficult hike. And they're like, oh, well, you know, I.
Just ran a marathon like a couple of weeks ago.
I think I can handle like three and a half miles or you know, like less than four miles. I think I can handle that. I'm like, okay, Like, but
I've warned you anyway. We start hiking up to get there, and I mean you're like, sure, you start on a nice trail, but then you turn off to a place where there is no trail and you're fighting through brush and then there's a stream that you're fighting up through and there's like poison ivy and there's always felt like there was so many like wasps and I don't know, bugs that can sting, right, And then you have to go what felt like almost straight up the mountainside and
it's a very steep climb, and I mean it was just loose kind of dirt, loose gravel, so it was not it was not solid footing at all.
And I remember at one point.
The cameraman just sat down and said I'm done, can't go any farther. And I was like, I told you, I told you not not that I enjoy other people's pain, I don't, but there was a moment that I felt a little bit vindicated.
Yet twenty six point two. Yeah, marathon runner, Yeah that's right, Baron, thank you.
Anyway, So it was very difficult to get back to and you would never have just stumbled across it, would never have just found it.
I mean it was it was hard.
Anyway, he took me back there, where as soon as he got me back there, he he claimed that I was now his wife, and I was raped and then I was chained up. And for the next nine months, I mean he and he had he had his actual wife there waiting for him, and she helped him. So she knew that you were she knew. Yeah, yeah, she knew. She was like complicit in everything. And yeah, the next nine months, I mean, they had found that the best
way to manipulate and control people was through religion. And I think if you step back and you look at that time period even more. I mean I was kidnapped in June of two thousand and two, but that prior September of two thousand and one was when nine to eleven happened, when the Twin Towers came down. And yes, I was a teenager, but so maybe I didn't see the full perspective of everything. But even in my teenage like vision of the world, it seemed like everyone was
just like extra sensitive about any form of extremism. I mean, I remember talk of a mosque in Salt Lake City, or and it was whether it should be torn down or just there was some I can't remember all the details, but I just remember it was like controversial and just everyone kind of felt scared, and any form of extremism, especially around religion, was scary to people. And I think that my captors recognized that, and I think they used that as a tool to get away with everything that
they wanted. And it had been so effective in getting people to stay away from them, or giving them what they wanted, or just manipulating the people around them, that they just continued on with that.
I mean, that's how he justified kidnapping me.
That's how he justified all of the abuse, the rape, the sexual violence that happened to me during my captivity. I mean, that's how they justified everything. That's how they justified trying to kidnap more young girls. I mean, thank goodness, they were never successful, but they did try. During my captivity, they took me out of Utah to southern California, San Diego, right outside of San Diego, yeah, Lakeside, and we were for about four and a half months.
How did you they travel you? Just by car by.
So greyhound bus took us there.
And were they like holding onto you tight?
What was they like?
Would they say like if you scream or you run, I will yes, yeah.
I mean for all of the time leading up to my leading up to going to California, my captors they I mean, they threatened me constantly. It was always like, if you don't do what we tell you to, will kill you. If we don't kill you, we'll kill your family.
They would.
When when Brian Mitchell would go down into Salt Lake, he would bring back newspaper articles or missing flyers about the surch that was being put on for me, and he would talk about how there were missing posters and all of the windows, and how every magazine and newspaper article had my face in it, and just how all of Salt Lake City was searching for me, but how nobody would ever be able to find me because he had me, And honestly, it seemed like it was true.
I mean, I remember times very early on that I actually heard someone yelling my name. It was far away, it wasn't like it was close. It was very faint and very distant, but I heard someone yelling my name. And then I remember another time, I mean, helicopter's flying just what felt like right over us, so much so that the trees around us were shaking, and that the tent he had me hidden it was shaking, but nobody
found us. I mean, I remember airplanes flying low overhead, like repeatedly searching and searching and searching, and nobody found me.
So I mean, it did feel like it did feel like he was right. It felt like he was invincible.
And the few times that I tried to to escape, that I tried to run away or try to stand up for myself or try to talk back, I was always punished for it. I was always like I was always in trouble. So it just got to a point where I was like, I just need to stay alive. I just need to do whatever I can to stay alive. It does not matter what it is. And so it eventually was staying quiet. It was keeping my mouth shut.
It was doing what they told me to do. And even if that meant going out into public and just keeping my mouth shut, that meant that in my mind, that meant that I would stay alive. That meant that I needed to do what they told me to do, and I would survive another day.
And so I did.
And I think unless you're in a situation where you feel like your safety, your well being, your life is really on the line, I think it's really difficult for other people to understand. I mean, I think even I feel like there's a lot of commonality actually between like victims of sexual assault like my story, or abduction or great victims and victims of domestic violence, even because from the outside you can't always understand, well, why didn't you yell, Why didn't you scream?
Why didn't you run?
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've been questioned like that. But then I've spoken and worked with so many other victims who have been in like domestically abusive marriages, and they talk about how, no, it's not just easy, like it looks like I have a card or a credit card. It looks like I have a phone, looks like I have a car. It looks like I can just like jump in and drive out. But it's never that.
Straightforward, or you have kids and you have to stay.
Exactly, There's always there's always something more and or like you've just been systematically decimated so that you feel like you don't have any value, you don't have any worth. Why would anyone believe you over for me? In my case, my captors, I mean they were claiming they were servants of God, and they were adults. I was a teenager.
Why would anyone believe adult a teenager over adults. Why would anyone believe someone who's potentially more of a liar a teenager versus someone claiming to do the work of God adults. I mean, they just seemed like there was such an imbalance of power and belief.
Why would anybody believe me and risk their safety for me?
Were you ever in your brain working out like how you can escape? Or was it just as active like I'm going to stay alive every day and this is what I have to do.
I mean, early on, I always thought about how I could escape. I remember I remember.
The second he got me into this camp, this hitting camp site, just thinking as soon as I get a chance, I'm going to run away. I mean, the whole time he took me up into the mountains, I remember thinking, I'm looking for my chance. I'm looking for my opportunity, Like where can I run? But I mean a lot of what we were hiking through. I mean it was like a very steep, narrow ravine and we were coming our way up the bottom. I mean, if I ran, and he had me in front of him, so I mean,
uphill was my only option. And I mean like no matter, yeah, if you want to admit it or deny it. But like men and women are different. I mean ironically now I run marathons, and I trained for marathons. But no matter how much I run, no matter how long I run, no matter how hard I tried to like improve my speed, like my husband will still beat me. And he doesn't train, he doesn't do anything well. He plays football once a week, but like it's just faster, Like there's nothing I can
change about that. And so as he was taking me up into the mountains, like even though I was looking for a chance, and I was actually honestly so worried that I had missed my chance.
I was so worried that like, maybe there was.
An opportunity to escape, to run away, and I had missed it, or I was too scared to take it. I remember being so scared of that thought that night. Now, of course, looking back and like replaying that night, there was never a chance. I mean he purposely stood right behind me. He had his knife on me for almost the whole night, and even when he put his knife away, he was physically holding onto me. I mean, there really was no opportunity for me to run away.
Did you recognize him when he like abducted you. Do you remember being like I remember him seeing me at the park, or seeing him at my school or something. Was he targeting you?
Not immediately?
No, I did not recognize him immediately. It wasn't until we were almost too this hidden campsite up in the mountains that I realized who he was. And even then, I mean, it had been the last time that I saw him. It was October November, like where at he well, I had been out school close shopping with my mom, like in September, right around the be end of the school year. And actually it wasn't even just me, like
I had some of my brothers and my sister. We were all out with my mom and we were looking at clothes and he was in downtown Salt Lake and he was begging for money. But instead of asking for money from my mom, he asked her for work, and she said she was like, I don't have any work, but you can call my husband, and so she gave him my dad's phone number, which he proceeded to call my dad and asking, you know, do you have work?
And my dad had been building our family home. I think he was building our family home my whole life. But he was like, oh, like, I think I've got some I don't remember if it was root work or yard work, but he had some work. He's like, you can come and help me outside the house, Like you're not allowed inside, but you can come help me outside.
And so he came one time.
But all it was was him seeing me out school close shopping with my mom just a few seconds, and he had decided in that in those few seconds that I was gonna be the one who's going to kidnap. That was the only reason why he called my dad to find out where we lived, and I remember when
I realized who he was. I remember turning to him and being like, well, like my parents tried to help you, like you asked for work, Like they didn't invite you over, they weren't just like handing it out you asked them, Like they went out of their way to try to help you, give you something that you asked for.
And this like your kidnapping me.
And just I mean, he didn't give straight answers. Initially, he'd just say things like he'd just say things like, oh, all will be made known in due time, like you know this is like all will be made known.
I mean, he just was not speak straightforward.
Was there any point in this process that he revealed a goal like I want money, I want your life, I want you with me for the rest of my life, like what was And obviously we can't rationalize with absolutely insanity, But is there at any point that he's describing to you like what he wanted out of this?
So the first night, yeah, he said, almost straight off the bat, after we were outside of my home, I'm taking you hostage. He he's yeah, he said he was taking me hostage. He said he was taking me for ransom. I mean, he didn't make those claims. But the closer we got to this hiding spot and it took us. I mean from the time it napped he kidnapped me to the time we got this hiding spot like, it wasn't quick.
I mean he took me.
It was probably between two and three am, I would guess in the morning. By the time we got to this hiding spot, the sun was up like it was bright, you could see every thing. So I'm not even sure exactly how long it took, but it was ours getting back to this hiding place. And initially, as I said, he mentioned, yes, I'm taking hostage, I'm taking you captive,
I'm holding you for ransom. But the closer we got to this hiding spot, the more what he said shifted from hostage and ransom to like all be made known to you. God's plan for you will be made like he kind of shifted.
From said the wife comment to didn't he.
That wasn't until that wasn't until we were actually in location. And that's actually after I first saw his wife. She was waiting for us. As soon as we walked into this camp, she was right there, and I remember thinking, oh, there's a woman here, then nothing that bad can happen to me, Like women wouldn't let anything else.
Truly terrible happened to me, So I was relieved.
Actually, when I saw her, she brought me inside the tent, she changed me, and then she got up and left, and that's when he came in and he was like, you're not my wife.
I read that he said they wanted seven vulgin braids. Yes, did they tell you that?
Yes?
He tried.
Oh really so he tried to kidnap other people he tried.
Yeah, yes, he made two other attempts on different girls while I was with him.
And is he having these conversations? Are they having these conversations with you around you?
I mean they weren't. They didn't.
They didn't hide their conversations from me once they had me. And kind of like what I was saying, they used like religion, they used God to justify and manipulate everything. So I mean, ultimately like he was a predator. Ultimately, like he wanted to rape little girls, but to justify that, he would be like, oh, this is such a heavy
burden God is placed upon me. He has not only called me to you know, be his prophet and his servant, but I am his davidic king in the last days, and this is a burden I did not want to bear. And I just I've God sent me a vision and telling me I needed to take seven young brides, seven young virgin brides, seven young girls to be my brides. And they need to be young enough that they're still that they're still malleable, that they can you know, they're not so set in their ways and so set.
In the ways of the world that like I can.
He said it differently than this, but essentially groom them into what I want them to be, that God can work with them to be the help the helpmates I need in life.
So it's almost like a coat, small version of a coat, or wants it to be. Yeah.
Yeah, And he was kidnapping instead of convincing.
So your sister is in bed with you the night that you're taking I just I and she was the one who helped sorry to interrupt, but to help identify him. Yes, and also what I read, Okay, yeah, that's what I was going to ask, is it. I know you credit her quite a bit for getting even to the point of rescue. Tell us her version of that night if you can.
Yeah. So she and I have talked about it since then, and she talked about how she was actually awake when I was kidnapped, Like she woke up, and I mean she didn't just like pop her eyes wide open. She was kind of just like keeping them closed and looking through her lashes.
And she said, what she said is it.
Looked like he was like wearing light colored clothing. And that was in like the newspaper reports. So when my captor saw that in the newspaper reports, he'd say things like, oh, you know, God blinded her eyes because I mean he was in like a dark stalking cap and like a
dark sweat gloat sweatshirt, dark sweatpants, dark gloves. And my sister said it looked like he had on like a white hat and he had a light color, and he'd be like, oh God, in one sense he veiled her eyes from the truth, but also in another like she was seeing my heavenly aura like that kind of thing. And so she talked about how she watched him, and she watched him take me and she thought he had a gun.
She didn't realize it was a knife.
She talked about how she like waited and waited and waited because the doors on our house had an alarm system on him, so when you open the door, the beeping would go off. But I guess, I guess the magnets that set the alarm off had fallen out of the back kitchen door, and just none of us knew about it, Like we just we just didn't know that it was malfunctioning. So he'd taken me on the back kitchen door. So but the door never alerted the alarm, so the alarm never went off.
And so my sister she laid in bed and waited and waited and waited.
And she said that she heard our grandfather clock go off two times, but the grandfather clock is accurate anyway. I think my brother's like got in and like smacked the pendulama a bit too hard and it broke it. So it just kind of went off randomly whenever it felt like it, and said she heard it go off a couple of times, and then she just decided she
just had to tell my parents. She had to get into my parents' room and tell them she thought he was still maybe in the house, but she felt like she had to take the risks, so she's talked about how she had this ratty old baby blanket and she like wrapped it around her shoulders and like draped it over her head and ran into my parents' room and she first went to my dad's side of the bed, but he was like in a pretty heavy sleep, so
he didn't wake up. So she walked around the bed to my mom's side, and my mom woke it up and she was like, what's wrong with my Catherine, Come tell me what's happening. And my little sister was just like, Elizabeth is gone, and my mom was like, I'm sure she's not gone, Like I'm sure you just had a bad dream. And Catherine was like, no, a man came and took her. And my Mom's like, no, I'm sure
a man didn't come and take her. You know, she probably just like moved into like one of your brother's rooms, or like down into the kitchen on the sofa because like I'm I'm not a super cuddly person, like when I sleep, I don't want to be touched, and my sister is a very cuddly person, and she would just like always cuddle right up next to me, but then she sleeps really really hot and so she'll sweat in her sleep, or at least she did as a child, maybe not now.
I don't know how it slept next her in.
Years, but as a child, she'd like cud over up next to me, and then she'd be like sweating in her sleep, and like I would just get so hot, and I'd keep moving over. But beds are only so big, so it wouldn't be that uncharacteristic for me to get up and leave the bedroom my shirt with my sister and like go into like one of my brother's rooms, or go into the kitchen and sleep on the sofa. And so my mom was like, oh, it's okay, Like
she's just in a different room, it's okay. By this time, my dad woke up and they started going through my brother's bedrooms. They came downstairs, and at the bottom of our stairs, you could go left into like the formal living room, or you could go right into the kitchen. My dad went left, my mom went right. She just like slammed on all the lights because in the background, my little sister kept saying, you're not going to find her.
A man came and took her, and how old was your sister? She was eight she was almost nine.
Wow.
Yeah, And.
So my mom said, how has since told me that when she went to the kitchen turned the lights on, she just saw how the window above the kitchen sink had been forced open, the screen had been cut, and at that point she just started screaming to my dad to call the.
Police man and then for your father to find out that it was someone that he hired too.
That must have been but I mean he didn't. It wasn't even like an immediate thing. I mean everybody knows later. Yeah, yeah, everybody thought it was this other guy that kidnapped me, who actually ended up dying in jail, and everyone's like, oh, Elizabeth is dead. She's gone, Like he's dead, she's gone, will never find her, Like the secret of her disappearance
has been buried with this man. And it was my little sister who yeah, who then came forward months and months later being like I think I know who it was And it wasn't. It wasn't this other man that everyone thought it was. And so my dad called it the police to tell them, and from my understanding is they were quite dismissive of it, and my dad was like, well we should at least get like, how let us do like a police sketch, like have a sketch artist,
let us come down and describe him. And so they had I think my two older brothers, no, my older brother and then my brother, my younger brother, go down to the police station with my dad, and each of them worked with the sketch artists to try to like recreate what they thought he looked like. But the police, my dad, I feel like, has said it was more they were just trying to humor my family as opposed to taking it seriously. At least that's what it sounded like.
And the police were like, you know, we think we still don't think it's this guy.
We think it's this other guy.
But my dad was good friends with John Walsh from America's Most Wanted at the time, and so he called up John and he was like, Mary Catherine thinks it's this person.
John Walsh went.
On Larry King Live that night and he was the one that put the police sketch, like he told Larry King about it, and Larry King like showed the police sketch to America.
And then how soon after were you captured?
Well, I guess so my understanding of what happened is this please sketch wed out, And I mean he didn't go by his name of Brian Mitchell. He went by his name. He called himself a Manuel. And like Mary Catherine, my sister had remembered that name and she.
Told my dad, I think it's a Manuel.
So then when this name, when this sketch was released, the name Emmanuel was released with it as well. And from what I understand, his Brian Mitchell's sister and her husband had been watching the news, saw that he was a person of interest, called up the phone and said, well, actually his name is Brian Mitchell. He's been seen or he's been seen like a couple of times late, not in the recent months, but before winter. And he was with his wife, Wanda Barzi, and there was a younger
woman there with them. But they were able to give like photos was better than the police sketch that was being shown. They were yeah, they sent in photos, and that happened. I think I'm not sure exactly when Larry King Live aired, but I think the photos appeared at the beginning of March.
And I was rescued March twelfth.
And how was that? Did the like did the police come in the house, like, what was that rescue?
Like?
So I had been able to convince my captors that we should come back to Salt Lake. So we ended up hitchhiking back to Salt Lake. And it was the first day that we had made it back to Salt Lake, and my captors were to rush to get me.
Up into the mountains. They wanted to hide me away, they wanted to make sure that they had me safe.
We tucked away nobody would see me or find me, and walking up State Street and it just felt like, I don't know, a whole bunch of police cars all of a sudden showed up and all these police officers jumped out and started questioning my captors at first, and then they started questioning me.
And you had given a fake name, right, I mean.
Yes, i'd been I gave a fake name, but I had been told like I'd been prepped. There was a whole backstory on everything I was supposed to say, on what I was supposed to do. And I had a captor on either side of me, I mean, like physically touching me.
You're either side fourteen years old, yeah, and you have been under this for nine months at this time. Yeah, that is heavy and brainwashy and reality shifting, and still at fourteen, that's young.
So so yes, Initially I did not just give the answers, and it wasn't until they separated me from my captors that I finally answered them.
Were you hoping that the police could see in you any sort of like physical like you know, like we always kind of joke, like the blink twice kind of thing, you know, But are you looking at the police like like just staring at them like please ask more, please separate me? Are you what does it feel like in that moment because you're so close. I, of course I wanted, I wanted the police to rescue me, but I also I didn't.
I didn't want to say anything because because you know, if the police didn't rescue me, I didn't I didn't want to be punished.
I didn't want to be hurt. I didn't want my family to be hurt.
Like I felt that burden of responsibility it was was very heavy. So I didn't want to say anything that would possibly endanger my family or myself. But I think as a kid, you look at police, you look at figures of authority, and you think, like they're superhuman. You think they can see through, You think they have all the answers, and that you don't need to say anything or do anything. They just naturally have all of the answers. And I think that's how I felt in that moment,
like I wanted them to have all the answers. I wanted them to see through the lies that I was saying. I wanted them to see through the lies that my captors were saying. I wanted them to see the truth.
Yeah, I read that when I think it was maybe when you're in the police car you can clarify it, but you were asking if they were okay at that point, I'm not right.
It was a very. It was like a very.
It was very intense because the police, they they were not gentle. They're not gentle with me, Like, they were really very abrasive and quite aggressive. And I don't I don't think i'm either as a person, and I was a kid, so I was even less so. And as soon as I had told them who I was, I'd been handcuffed.
What Yeah, why handcuff? Why were you handcuffed when you told them you were Elizabeth?
Yeah, I was handcuffed and I was put in the back of the car, and I thought I was in trouble, and they really didn't tell me what was going on.
Why in the world would they handcuff you.
It's interesting.
I've heard a lot of things, and actually about a year ago, I for the first time I re met the officers that were there that day, and I mean, I'm grown up now. It's you know, it's been over twenty years since that happened, and it was incredible because it.
Was still like they were still like they were kind.
I could tell they were happy I was there. I could tell that they wanted to answer any questions I had. But like, even still they were not gentle people.
Why did they hank I don't understand. Why why, I really don't understand.
At the time, there was not like a best practices.
I was told that just nobody was allowed in the back of the police car without being handcuffed. I mean they said, like how they had a teenager the week before who or recently who wasn't handcuffed and tried to stab the driver, the police officer driving. So it was like a safety protocol for them. But just so you know, I had been handcuffed. I hadn't been told what was going on. I didn't know where I was being taken
because I'd been handcuffed. I thought I was guilty. I didn't know if I was just going to be released to them, So I mean I did ask questions because I didn't know.
Like, for lack of better words, it.
Almost felt like I needed to still play play a role, that I still needed to protect myself and my family because if I was going to be released back to these captors, I didn't want to be punished.
I didn't want my family to be endangered. I mean, I did not know I was safe.
I thought if they thought I was innocent, wouldn't they have taken me home? Wouldn't they have told me what was going on. Wouldn't they have let me call my family?
Like yeah, you'd think that would be the fust What's it would come from the police officer?
You're safe, here's a blanket and some warm tea, and your family's right there, like.
Yeah, yeah, stick these home costs and get in the back of the car.
Awful disgusting, it is it? It has seemed crazy to me, and I wonder if it feels this way to you, because like during this time. I live in Michigan. She lives in Michigan, and we know your name and we know your face, like you were literally everywhere, And it's wild to me that you could be taken into public moved locations beyond a Greyhound bus and people not know it's you, especially in this kind of like awkward looking trio of people that's traveling. Did they change your appearance
at all? Were they you know, like I've I've heard that, not like I study a lot of kidnappings, because honestly, it all just kind of stresses me out a bit. And like the fact this man worked on your house, like I'm like, like, I'm panicking. So that's one of the questions I have for you. But it usually there's like a typically there's some sort of like appearance change or something so that you're a little less recognizable. Did they do those things to you where you like, my
face has got to be everywhere? How is no one recognizing me? Like the silent screams? I just can't imagine. First of all, I can't imagine being fourteen and this
is your reality for nine full months. I think I think anyone that questions why you would do anything should probably stop questioning because you're fourteen and your reality has become survival, a different kind of trauma that no one in this room can identify with no one, And so I defend you in that and I never want you to have to over explain yourself ever again if I had one prayer for you, But do do you feel like I'm wondering? I'm you, and I'm like, I want
people to feel the silent screams. I want them to see something in my eyes that says this is not right. I want to pass somebody a note at a diner, I want to take too long in the bathroom, or you know, like were those thoughts, where are those thoughts in this whole San Diego relocation and then back to Salt Lake City, I mean.
They were always there, Like one time I had to go to the bathroom and yes I was, I was veiled and I was. I mean that the way that they had me dressed, I mean, just everything again kind of played into that form of that appearance of religious extremism. So and again, taking that time period back into consideration, like I remember walking down the street seeing people walking towards us. They'd stop when they'd see us, they'd cross the street, they walked down the other side past us, and once.
They were past us, they'd cross back over. I remember people.
Rolling down their windows, sticking their heads out of their windows and yelling things like oh sama, like out the window at us. Like they really took advantage of this situation to the fullest. I mean they just like they really did. And I think it would be.
Silly to say that they were, to say that they were stupid.
Mean, unfair, evil, sure, monsters, absolutely, but stupid they were not. And they recognized, you know, like, oh, people are scared of religion. Like if people question you, like why are you doing this or why are you dressed that way? And you say, well, it's part of my religion, that usually just shuts people up and they walk on their way. And so they recognize that, and they utilize that. That became a very effective and powerful tool.
They did make you wear a wag at one time, didn't.
They They did? Yes?
Oh did they change my parents? So yes, for the most part when we were in For most of the time, I was I had like a headdress on and had like a veil covering my face, and like I was dressed in like these long robes. When we were hitchhiking back from California, I mean, they had dressed me in clothes that they had just like found in an abandoned
homeless camp. They went to like the equivalent of Dollar General or the Dollar Store, and they had like some gray wigs that were there, and so on the way back they had me wearing like a gray wig, and then they had me wearing sunglasses. And I mean then, I mean, on top of it, like it was it was hard getting back to Utah. I mean California to Utah. Like you think, oh, that's like not that far, but actually, just like hitch hiking back, I mean you're not even
taking the most direct route. They were like, oh, we don't want people to like, we don't want people to know exactly our final destination. So they'd put like different cities on their signs and hopefully Utah would just be on the way and then we would just drop our signs when we got to where we wanted to be. But also we spent like so much time out in
the desert, and there wasn't shade, there wasn't cover. I mean, I'm a pretty white person, like I'm borderline glow in the dark occasionally, and like I was burned, Like my face was was burned and blistered, and then.
It became like puffy.
So sometimes when I look back at the pictures of the day that I was rescued, to hit my vanity. But also like, I mean, even then, I look at the pictures that they plastered on the front page of the newspaper, and I'm.
Like, why why, such as you were America's kid, and we were all looking for you. We didn't bear you were sunburned. We wanted you back, cared, I know, like, and.
It's not like it's not like they had me in a bra and I was, you know, by that point, I was fifteen. Like, no fifteen year old girl wants to be on the front page of a newspaper or a magazine without a bra.
And listen, no one's judging how you looked when you were rescued, I promise you. But we said you that's how if we were happy. So how long were they sentenced for?
So Brian Mitchell is sentenced for life and wander no chance, no chance of Parl, no chance of Wanda Barzee is now out.
She's out, she's out.
She got and went to a certain eighteen. How did you feel about that?
I was disappointed.
I I mean she was there, she not just like she never protected me from him. She encouraged him and doing whatever he wanted to me.
She there with and all the salt stuff was happening.
Yeah, like watched it happen, encouraged it to happen.
So there was like a part of me that was like, well, I feel like my mom was always like if you don't stand up for people who are being hurt, then you're just as bad as the person doing the hurting. And maybe that's just like the mentality I was raised with.
But I look at her, and I mean she had a prior marriage where she had six children of her own, And part of me is like, how could you like bring children into this world, raise children who are all older than me, and then sit aside and watch your current husband rape me repeatedly and abuse me and like chain me up with hold food and water from me, forced me to go naked. Like how can you, who who was a mother, just sit aside and do that?
Would you ever want to sit in the room with a no nice expression?
No? No, do you remember the first word your parents said when they got to see you again.
My dad was, I mean, he was the first one I saw. He came to the Sandy Police station and he was like he was just in tears. And I didn't know he was coming. I didn't know he was there, Like they just didn't tell me anything.
And so I.
It was shocking, honestly to have him just run in the room all of a sudden. He was just crying. He was like, Elizabeth, is it really you? Is it really you? And he just kind of repeated that over and over, and even my mom.
On the way from the Sandy police station where I was initially brought to the downtown headquarters in Salt Lake.
My dad was in the car.
We were in the backseat of a police car and the police was taking us there, and he like pulled out his phone and called my mom up and he's like, Lois, it's real, it's real. She's here, she's alive. She's here with me. And I was like, let me talk to her, let me talk to her. Put her on the phone, and so he passed the phone to me and my mom she said the same thing. She's like, Elizabeth, Elizabeth,
like is it really you? Are you there are you like like say something to speak, say something and then the his battery died.
Oh my god, I know, Dad, I know, bro, I didn't see that coming. I'm not gonna lie, Dad, Like, did you get him a charger for his birthday?
Well Christmas?
That it was back when everyone had like a Nokia brick.
Put them for having a phone, to be honest, because I mean, honestly, two thousand and two we were flip phoning and yeah, it was.
It wasn't a smartphone. It was like when you're.
Pushing A three times to get you know, like or one three times to get an A or whatever.
Yeah, and it was like one charge would last you a few days. I mean the only thing you could do was call, text and maybe play Snake and that was it.
Oh snaky wow. Way to bring it back.
So you got to.
You got to say something to Brian though when he was sentenced correct.
Yes, I mean he didn't. How was that listen, of course?
But how was that for you to to say something to him? Would you want to go back? Is there something you'd want to go back and say differently? Would you want to say I wish I would have said this or this is what I would want to say to him now, So I'm sure for teen versus what you're in your thirties.
Well, I didn't.
The trial didn't happen until I was in my twenties, Like it was almost it was almost.
A decade after I was rescued. Yeah, the it's crazy.
Actually, so my case went straight into the state courts, which is what you'd expect, but it took so long, and it was back when there was a statute of limitations. And actually it was taking so long in the state courts that the Statute of limitations was coming up, so there was a chance they could have been released, wow, just because that statute of limitations was coming into effect, which.
Is when I was then approached by the.
US Attorney of Utah and asked if I wanted to move it to federal courts, if I wanted, like the federal courts to try to prosecute it, And he explained to me what was happening in the state courts, and I was like, of course, is that even a question like do I want him out? No, of course I want him behind bars. And so then it got moved to the.
Federal courts, and that still even then took a long time. I mean it was I think eight nine years when it finally came to trial and sentencing. I think was just shy of ten years, maybe for nine years right around there, Like it was, it was a long time.
So by the time, like when I've made my victim impact statement to him, like a lot of time had passed and I'd grown up a lot. Honestly, I don't even fully remember what I said that day, but I trust myself.
So there's nothing you would say now then to him.
I don't have anything to say to him.
Yeah, Alan, you were you were saying earlier too, You're like, I don't know if I should come on, how she'd feel about being around a guy, And I'm like, well, she's older now, she's not.
I understand not wasn't It was me because you didn't know I was going to be in possibly going to be in this, and then you guys have turned up and all of a sudden, I'm like, yeah, I want to. So it was almost intrusive, and I didn't want to be the male in the room that was making himself a part of this when maybe it wasn't welcome.
That was my thought.
You were going off of it because of like how she trusts men.
Now, yeah, there was a.
Little bit of that, Like it was one it was going to be intrusive. It may have come off as disrespectful, and I didn't.
You're clearly.
A very powerful woman told in a very powerful woman and very powerfelt kid, But I don't know what you are like around men there. So I was like maybe I should maybe I'm not welcome, which is what I said to you. I might not be welcome in the room.
Well always welcome back, but.
Husband, and I'm like, oh, she's good.
But how was that to trust men after that?
Well? As a teenager, yeah, I was scared of men, Like I didn't want to be left alone with men.
I didn't trust men. But again, like it's not like think Kevin's.
I didn't grow up in a society where there are arranged marriages and thank goodness, it's not like my parents were like, oh, Elizabeth, like we're gonna we're gonna sign you up to marry this like fifty year old man. Like that's not If that had been my life, then I probably would still be scared of men. But like I was, I was brought home and like I wasn't forced into anything, and like my parents tried to support me and give me whatever space I wanted or needed.
And I mean I trusted my dad, and I trusted my grandpa, and I trusted my uncles, and that was about it. My brothers, I've got four of them, and that was enough at first, you know. And then, like as silly as it might sound, during my kidnapping, like when he's telling me that I'm now his wife, when he's telling me that like one day I'll have his kids, that I will you know, I will come to love him, that I will come to you know, willingly do all
of the things he was forcing me to do. Like it just felt like he was like shattering one dream at a time, because like, yeah, I totally was that little girl that like one day I did want to grow up and fall in love and I wanted to get married, and I wanted to have a family, and I wanted all those things. I'm not saying like I wanted that I'm like right that second, but I mean like I wanted those things from my life, and like it felt like those things had been taken away from me.
And so when I was rescued, I mean it kind of felt like those things, at least the opportunity for things those things to happen, had been given back. So although I wasn't ready for any of that at that time, like those were still things I wanted in my life.
So I'm just yeah, I'm grateful for the time that I had.
And how was that healing journey? Was it just like, what was the thing that helped you the most through the healing?
I think it was just knowing that I was loved unconditionally.
I think that made the biggest, the biggest difference and the biggest impact. And actually now as an advocate, when I talked to parents, I think that is probably the greatest gift that any parent can give their child, is to make sure that they know that they're.
Well, that their children know that you love them unconditionally. There are no strings attached to your love. Your children might disappoint you or might do things that you don't agree with, but you will still love them. They couldn't do anything that would ever stop you from loving them.
Right.
Well, when we talk about this a lot too, because KB is Christon's very protective, I say, a psychopath, but well I was I was trying to be nice. So yeah, like you like, I mean she's breathes the air up close, like and it just has them. And I'm a little bit more, you know, I still very protective, but there's a there's a so I will say, as a mom, now,
how what do you what are you doing? I know, the to make sure they love the love unconditional, But is there from your experience and what happened to you as a kid, is there something that you're now doing as a mom being more aware of or I mean I don't even know, like what's the I mean, stranger.
Danger is one thing, right, like we all know that, but like being in the walk that you've had, Yeah, how does that transform into being the daughter, son or children of Elizabeth smart Well?
I mean, first I just want to say, like my case really is the exception.
Like I'm like, it's not me like bragging or being like I'm so special, but it really is the exception in that I Mike story is a stranger abduction.
I did not know him. I did not have a personal relationship with him. I did not know him.
He saw me one time for like forty five seconds maybe, and that was it. That was all he decided that's all it took, and he had decided. I was one conem I didn't know him, there was no personal relationship there.
The vast majority of abductions.
Of sexual assault come from people that you know, people that you trust, whether that's a family member, someone in your community that you have a relationshipship with, someone that has access to your kids. That is where the vast
majority of a productions and sexual assault comes from. And so when we do talk to kids, I think it is so important to be clear, like I like, talk about what can be, what happens, make sure that they realize that if they say no, that no has power and that that no should be respected, That they that
other people don't have control over their body. That yes, there are of course situations like you know, if a child needs helps bathing themselves, or like they got hurt and they need you to look at it, or you're taking them into the doctor and you're in the room with them, Like there's times when it's appropriate that that for someone else to touch their body or look at their body, but for the most part it's it's not, and that they should trust their instinct if they don't
feel safe, if they don't like someone if they like if they I don't know, if their radar is going off, that something's wrong, that that should be, that those instincts should be encouraged, and then that bond of trust between you and your child should be so strong that they know that they can come to you, talk to you about what's happened, and you will believe them instead of just dismissing it. You will believe them, and you'll support them, and then you'll help them to like figure out what
to do next. So I think, for me, what I try to do, I'm not perfect in it, none of us, by the way, and I'm not a parenting expert. Just for the record, I feel like a lot of people ask me, so, how do you raise your kids? I'm like, well, I'm trying, still trying to figure it out. I am so open to suggestions and advice other parents have, But I feel like the advice that I've been given, the things that I feel like i'm like learning along the way that I've been helpful are I mean being open
with your kids. When your kids start asking questions, that's the right time to start giving them answers. Don't wait for them to google it or learn from a friend.
Do they know about your kidnapping?
Yeah?
They all could tell you the.
Very broad overarching stone, right, They probably couldn't tell you nitty gritty details of anything.
Yeah, yeah, because you're right, because they can anybody can google anything. Is there anything that you you haven't told me? Did you tell them about the assaults?
And so my oldest she we've started having those conversations. We haven't gone into huge depth yet, but we have begun having those conversations because I also think of like who I was before I was kidnapped, and like, honestly, like I was innocence. I was like I might have been fourteen, but I didn't know anything, Like I loved a very sheltered life.
I lived a very protected life.
And also like in my life, nobody took the time to like talk to me and be like there's a difference between like consenting sex versus rape versus sexual be so all of it kind of seemed like it was the same thing to me, and I kind of I look back on my life and I think how damaging not having that education was during my kidnapping and how long it took me to learn that afterwards, and how hard.
Honestly, that road was learning that.
So, I mean, I want my girls in particular, to like understand there is a very big difference between abuse, sexual abuse, and rape versus.
Like loving intimacy.
And I don't want them to feel ashamed. I mean, heaven forbid anything it's ever happens to them, to any of my kids, But I don't want them to ever feel ashamed for someone else's actions because I did, even though like I knew, like logically I knew it wasn't my fault, but I still was embarrassed just because people they didn't talk about abuse, and they didn't talk about rape, and they didn't talk about you know, sure there's the news, but that kind of that felt unrelatable. That felt like
it was a different world. It didn't feel like it was my world. It felt like it was some world on.
The wrong side of the tracks, if you will. So that was really that was hard.
Yeah, So, now where can listeners find you? And then where can they find your advocacy work to So.
In twenty eleven, we started the Elizabeth Smart Foundation and we're still here, miraculously amazing. So go to Elizabethsmartfoundation dot org. And that's our website or Elizabeth Smart Foundation on Instagram or Facebook social media sites. We're there, and then we
have our own podcast called Smart Talks. It is also through the foundation where we cover I mean, we cover these harder topics, but we also have like inspiring, amazing guests who share their stories or their expertise and their knowledge of all things pertaining to.
Un around the world of.
Rape and sexual violence and hope and healing And.
What would be the one thing you would want them to know that have been in that abuse.
I feel like there's a few things I'd want them to know. I think the first thing I'd want them to know is that that you do matter.
You are special. This is not your fault, Like you didn't do anything to deserve this. Nobody wakes up.
In the morning and being like, oh, what today feels like a really good day to be abused? Like nobody does that. Nobody deserves to be hurt or abuse. The next thing I'd want them to know is that I know it can feel like this is going to define you for the rest of your life. Like I don't know how many airplanes I've gotten on or restaurants I've sat down in where people just stare and stare and stare, and they're like, I know I know you from somewhere. You just your face is so familiar.
Where do I know you from?
And then and then it'll like hit him and I'm like, you're that girl that was kidnapped. I'm like, say it a little bit louder, please, It's not like I'm on a date or anything.
Also I'm an adult and also awkward. Yeah, but remember later and write it jump in a journal or something, sir.
Like it's easy to feel like defined by one moment in your life, or like one thing in your life. Like I remember after I was rescued, I was so worried if I died tomorrow and my funeral happened tomorrow, what is what is going to be the topic anybody talks about?
Oh, it's such a tragedy, Like she was kidnapped and then she died. She kidnapped and survived just to die, Like I was, like, my kidnapping is going to dominate my funeral? Like what a morbid thought for like a fifteen year old kid to have, But that was my thought.
So like I think it's common to feel like easily defined by these moments maybe one or two moments in your life.
But I don't think that's the truth.
I think you define yourself by how you live your life, what you do next, how you respond, like what you do the rest of today, what you do the rest of tomorrow, the rest of your life, Like I think that's kind of.
What makes you who you are. And then and then finally, the last thing I'd want someone who has been abused to know is that you deserve to be happy. Take time for happiness. Find your happiness, like whatever it is, like singing or dancing, or painting, or reading a book or baking, I don't know, football, like whatever it.
Is, whistling you love to whistled on? That sounds like a point.
Must be another Scottish trade.
Like find whatever it is that brings you joy and practice it regularly, Like don't just like put it off for tomorrow, like all of us have busy less there's always something to fill your life life up with, like take.
Time just to enjoy and be happy as well.
A meant to that. Well, thank you so much Elisheth for coming on and sharing your story and everything that you do. Thank you, appreciate you, Thank you