Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
So Catherine, you're gonna kill me? Oh no, like kill me.
But it's scared.
So this episode is about sex.
I'm so mad at you. Well, have fun hosting by yourself. I'm just kidding.
Well, we have doctor Vivienna coming on. She's actually a sex expert. And you know, when we were discussing you coming on the podcast, You're like, I can come today, and I was like great. I was like I would love for you too, because you know, sex just isn't your favorite topic in the world.
Not in front of like, however many people listen to.
This, it's in front of Okay, Okay, it's right, you're right, you're right, and so, but it just so happened. You're like, but I have to be out from this time to this time, and I'm like, oh, I was like, it's like you somewhat knew that, Like you like that you had to be unavailable from like the time that she was able to be on because that's how much she loathed talking about sex.
Thank god.
Where do you think that comes from? Is it like a like a taboo thing from like.
Probably from childhood?
Yeah, we didn't talk about it a lot, very like southern Baptist Christian family, like it just wasn't We didn't talk about a whole lot, but definitely not sex.
So what do you how do you think you'll do that with the kids then, so that way it's not like the you know that kind of we've.
Actually talked about it a lot, you have, Yeah, yeah, I've already had like a full conversation with my nine year old.
Now the nine yeah, hey, they say eight is too late. No, yeah, I know what.
I didn't even know it sex was until like, well, yeah the freshman year school.
Well I definitely knew before that, but I heard from everybody else, not you know, my family.
How old were you when you honestly found out about sex? I heard about sex.
I think I was like eleven, probably fourth or fifth grade.
I mean we talked. Grade is when they teach you about sperm and stuff, right, isn't that word?
Like I just don't think my kids.
There was a video we had to watch where it's like you saw sperm like this little like floaty thing, and then it talked about like our periods, and then I just remember being like this sucks. But that was fifth grade and then never spoke about it again.
So what did your parents talk to you about it?
Not once?
So you just went the opposite way. You love to talk about it and I hate to talk about.
It just you know, but yeah, so, I mean, they honestly say eight is too late.
Well, the problem is is that when people start talking so like, Okay, my twelve year old is a boy. My husband had that conversation. But I knew one of his best friends, when he was probably about nine, had already had that conversation with his parents, had been asking questions about other stuff.
And what like kissing, touching penis is the giants.
Like rape, Like he had asked a question about rape, I know, at nine, and so I was very concerned that he was going to then have the conversation with Cayden. So I had Nick have that conversation. I don't know a whole lot about how that conversation went.
You didn't ask Nick for work, but of course you.
Know he had a couple of Burmans before. No, so they've had that conversation. I left, and Kayden and I have talked about it also.
Like what do you talk about? That's the thing, like, like what's like a cause I'm like, so I don't even know. I'm like, well you the vagina.
Well, here's the thing. It depends on the kid. Like Kayden doesn't ask questions. He just sat there, so I think it was extremely uncomfortable for Nick, and he talks about stuff all the time. Yeah, any though, my nine year old she asked questions, so it's actually easy, like what kind of questions, Like, well, we started we're sharing about periods. We started with periods, and then we walked about tampons and how they and then you move on
and it's like, okay, have you heard of sex. Well I've heard of it, but I don't know what it is. It's like, okay, well that's where a penis. And then you just but she kept asking questions, so it just led to it. So we had a full on conversation.
Did she ask like why do people do that? Because like that would be a question I would ask like why do why does a penis in a vagina get together?
I mean I think she did.
I think, what do you say? Like it just feels good?
I don't remember, and I had it like I was so proud of myself.
But having said that, I still don't enjoy it.
Having it and talking about it.
Thanks, you know, mark the rule of thumbs kind of if they're asking questions about it, it's time to talk about it, and you can kind of gauge by their questions how deep you should go into it.
What do you think about the eight is too late?
It depends on what they're asking.
If they're not asking anything that, I'm not sure I would just kind of confront them with it before eight years old.
I think I would kind of let them guide me. Here's my rebuttal passive style. I'm a little passive.
Yeah, well, yes, I can be the rebuttal to that is like my twelve year old son Is would not probably ever ask a question.
He would just let it go. So I don't know that's hard.
Well, yeah, I think what like I never got the talk from my parents, and they might dispute that, but I don't remember ever getting it. I remember learning it in fifth grade in school and going to my friends.
Like, did you guys hear that the penis goes into did.
You know that?
Yeah? Yeah, we all knew that.
I'm like, oh man, we wanted to do the same video last one on sex, and that's the problem though, when you asked all your friends, they already all knew.
And that was fifth grade.
Yeah, my daughter's going into fourth It might have been, but she was the one with a million questions and it just led to a question to a question to it. So it honestly was easy because it just I just had to answer them. But so she already knew a good bit.
I'm sorry. The fact that Mark just said I learned that Santa Claus wasn't real, that a penis that goes into a vagina was probably the best thing I've heard this Monday.
That was the last one on both of those of all my friends.
Oh that's going to be the same, mean the Santa Claus thing, that's going to be. How old were you? I think I was actually probably in fifth grade.
I don't remember. I just kind of pretended.
Forever I was really late because one year, some friends of my parents stopped by on Christmas Eve after I had gone to bed, and they had just been at a Christmas party, so they were a dressed as Santa and Missus Claws in full costume. So the next morning my parents showed me a photo they took in our living room with Santa and Missus Clause.
So as far as I was concerned, this was proof.
Nobody could tell me Otherwise I would never be convinced because I had photographic evidence.
That is the cutest thing ever.
Though.
I love that. I mean, and I think Santa Claus and you know, mister Clause, like Missus and mister Clause. I think they had sex, you.
Know, although they did.
Did they have babies?
No, there's not little there's just the hells.
But I don't think hilarious Doctor Vivianna, who's coming on? She has these four uh different I think it's I think it's four intimacy styles.
Yeah, good thing I gotta get. I just it's I don't know.
Do you just not enjoy it?
It just makes me uncomfortable to talk about I don't know why.
It's like our rule no talking.
I'm just kidding. Yeah, it's fine, it's fine, all right, Well, Catherine, I know you don't want to talk about it. I won't talk about it anymore. I just I like sex.
Yeah, let's talk about it.
I do. I think it's healthy. But that's but I'm not saying it's not not healthy. Like if that's something that you don't like to talk about We don't have to talk about it. You know, I'll keep pushing you, but I know you will.
I'll get there and you don't.
I mean again, like some people, I'm not comfortable with what am I not comfortable with confrontation? Sure, so I'm not comfortable with that. I don't like talking about confrontation. I usually just cry or or delete my number. That's moving to a different country. Hate confrontation. So yeah, I mean, we all are uncomfortable with different things. So I love you and I appreciate you. Know, go have your meeting.
Pam's going to hop in for you. Thanks, but I'd love to have you back for some emails at the end of the show. Okay, because you have you are good with everything else but sex.
Okay, thanks, we'll.
Be back butt sex.
That's such a guy.
So we have doctor Vivianna Coles coming on. She has a new book out called The Four Intimacy Styles, which I have. I don't know anything about that, do you, Pam? I don't know anything. I would love to know because when I hear like, I'm like, there's different styles, Like, isn't intimacy just intimacy? Like you think right, right, I mean, but now you know reading that, it's like, well, I mean,
just like everybody's different, I'm sure they're right. I love language. Yeah, I feel like it's one of those things too where when you know, you think about like love languages and intimacy and all that, it's intimacy, isn't just sex. But for a long time, like I thought that sex was intimacy.
And if you weren't having sex like with your partner or you know, then like something was wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah, because it's like it has to be wrong, right, Like clearly we're not intimate, and isn't being intimate having sex? Like what ways do you like feel like what fills your intimacy cup? I mean I'm kind of the same way two girls just want to have sex.
Well, I mean for me, it's like that's the like the common bond, especially when you're married and you have these kids and you're like running around and can you can easily turn into just like co parenting and you know, like partnerships and parenting instead of like really you know, focusing like on your relationship. So I feel like, you know, then that brings that relationship, that more intimate relationship right, you know.
That was always like such a struggle because that is my thing, Like that's in our I remember our couples therapist is always like okay, like what other ways can can you find intimacy? And I'm just like, but can't it just be sex too? Like like I I enjoy it, like I wanna I would like to have, but there's I think it's you know, also like handholding and those things.
I mean, I think I've always been like fearful, like you know when like the sex stops or isn't there as like much as it was, is the relationship stopping? Oh it's a good question. Well, doctor Vivianna is in the waiting room, s let's bringer in and ask her. That's a really good question. Okay, So we were just talking about obviously intimacy and you have there's four different styles, so we're dying to know what are those four different styles.
Yeah.
So in my book The Four Intimacy Styles, I go into great detail about how important it is to not just know what your own intimacy style is, but how to round it out so you can have that lasting physical connection with a partner, which is super important. So they're bonding release, giving, and responsiveness, and all four of
them are valid, all four of them are necessary. And I think that what a lot of people don't realize is that they might think that bonding is the ultimate way to experience intimacy and sexuality.
But you mean as bonding sex? No bonding is because I didn't hear sex and that, I'm like, a sex is, Like, isn't that Like we're just saying like that's our number one? I'm like, what, so which one? Which one is that?
So I'm only talking about sexuality here. Emotional intimacy. There's so much information about there out there about it, but physical intimacy is what I'm all about in this book. And so bonding is a type of intimacy style. So you might feel that in order to feel physically connected to somebody, you have to feel emotionally connected to them, and you do that through experiencing sexuality with them, So
that creates that bonding. And then giving is when you're that person who says, if you're okay, I'm okay, you're experiencing pleasure because of something that I'm doing. Oh my gosh, I feel so close to you, I feel so connected to you. And then release is whenever somebody says, I really just want to get off, Yeah, and in order to really feel connected to you, I need to get off.
And then we have responsiveness and people who say, you know what, I'm not really thinking about sex right now, but now that we're kind of into it, I'm into it and I feel close to you and maybe we can do it again soon. But they're not the ones experiencing that spontaneous desire that a lot of people think should be happening. You know, it doesn't happen to everyone. Actually, very few people experience spontaneous desire that makes them them
want to motivate. You know, their partners have sex. So you need to have all four if you're going to be with someone forever and be getting lucky.
Interesting because what happens if you don't have that because you were just asking what was your question and you basically said, like, if you don't have that.
Yeah, it then like what happens to the relationship, Like it's I feel like, you know, sometimes when the sex stops and isn't as much as you know it was maybe before, Like then yeah, like I would just get scared because of what happens to the relationship, then.
Well, a lot of people are experiencing it right now. You feel like this dullness, this grayness that comes across all of the good times. So you might be experiencing that French to you know, that feeling of like you're
my content b and I love you for that. But if you don't have the physical connection and you're not experiencing consistent, satisfying physical intimacy and a relationship no matter what it chooses to look like, you're going to end up either together but really dissatisfied and possibly even looking elsewhere, or you're going to end up feeling like physically you're you're you know, things will start atrophy, You'll start to
experience depression. It can really be something that you know, emotionally drags you down, physically drags you down, and then of course a lot of people will just leave their partners.
Yeah, I mean I remember, oh, in my past relationship like that's it was just one of those things where I'm like I wanted it more than like my partner, and it was very hard because it's like I didn't feel like it was asking for a lot, but I'm like, I'm happier when we do it makes it even if I didn't get off, it was just that connection. Is that that's like what I like need, That's all I needed. But firstly, I.
Think for a lot of people, they don't realize that most people sign up for monogamy right, and so they're signing up for this. You are the only person that I can do this with. I can tell everybody I love them, I can kiss my dog, my doctor will see me naked, I'll you know, maybe on a girl's chip, share a bed with someone. This is that one thing that you're only expected to do with your partner, and if it's not happening, there is going to be a
feeling of something missing. And like you said, it doesn't
always have to look one way. And that's why I think it's so important to know your intimacy style and to know how to round it out, which is I truly believe the key to making sure that it's lasting, because we all want, you know, when we get married or we decide to partner up with someone for a really long time, we are truly thinking we're going to have this intimate connection both emotionally and physically forever, but we don't know how to do that, and I've been
seeing client since two thousand and three. I finally was like, you know, I got to get this book out and just tell people this is what it takes to be physically connected forever, because nobody wants to get divorced. Nobody wants to break up. Nobody wants to have that investment and then have this physical connection, you know, dissipate or just not be satisfying, and then that's the reason why they end up divorcing. The other thing is that I think in America we judge people for wanting to have
sex be a really prominent part of our relationships. It's almost like, well, that's that's not a good enough reason to be the satisfied. Is that y'all are having sex. No, it's a really good reason. It's a valid reason, and it's not you know a lot of people say infidelity, abuse, not caring for children, all of those things are good reasons to leave someone. Well, so is not having this sexually fulfilling life.
What happens or what do you say to the people that, like a therapist will say, let's take sex off the table.
I think it's important to take sex off the table. But that's not physical intimacy. If we're talking about sexual intercourse or orgasm or very specifically, you need to ask your therapist what do you mean by that and what's the point If sexuality is your way of coming back together and ignoring what you just went through and sweeping it under the rug and that's your go to pattern, yes, you need to take a break so that you can
really focus on what's happening between you emotionally. But for a lot of people, they do use sex as kind of like a band aid, and that's where therapists will say, Okay, we need to not cloud your judgment. We need to take a break from this. This is a bad cycle.
And if you're getting like kind of in a rut, is knowing your because you said like with knowing your intimacy styles, that's where you're going to have long lasting, like great sex, but to stay fresh? Is that also like good to know your intimacy styles or like what happens if you're like, all right, we know our styles, but like it's just I've been with this person for this long and I'm kind of like, how do you
even have it? Because sometimes it might be awkward to be like can we do, like like how to have the confidence to say something to like freshen it up right.
So, if you're trying to round out your intimacy style, which then would mean that you're trying to adopt twenty five percent of each of the four styles into almost every sexual interaction, it takes some work. And I'm going to give you lots of examples of that in the book of what you can do to be more getting, what you can do to experience more release, what you can do to be more responsive, what you can do to experience more bonding. You're gonna have to put those
into effect. And now I have a quiz that will help you to determine what percentage of each you're at currently, so that you can know which one you need to adjust. And again it's great for engineers, but it's also great for people who are like, I don't know what I'm doing. I just know that sometimes we're feeling offfed well. The book definitely gives you lots of examples, but for instance,
with somebody who's not used to being responsive. I've gotten a lot of people who tag me on their quiz results and they're like zero percent responsive, and they think that that's good, well know, because what that ends up looking like in real life is that their partner is putting. They're not able to allow their partner to take the lead at all.
So they're partners.
Taking the lead, but they're feeling like it's not enough. So for instance, they they're the ones that are always initiating. The person who's zero percent responsive is always initiating. So their partner's like, okay, you're not giving me a chance. They might take a lead emotionally, but physically they're not giving the chance to step up. And so that's when people say you never initiate. I always do, so it's important to take turns.
But what if you know, I mean, for so many years they don't step up.
And that's I mean.
In my office, I'm always dealing with people who don't know how to initiate. They either feel like they try for so many years, so now it's your turn, you take the the time. That's not the way a long lasting sexual relationship will work. The other thing is some people just feel super awkward, like they do like a team again and be like, oh, I'm going to put
myself out there and you're going to reject me. The other time is they are awkward and they sometimes like use a different voice, or you know, they like they walk around being kind of funny. Silliness is fun, right. Sex is play for adults. So I get that. But if every time you're going into this you feel like this rush of oh my gosh, I feel like I'm going into myself. Do you mean to have a conversation with your partner and just ask them what's the sexiest
way that I can initiate verbally nonverbally? Do I light a candle on my set of the night standing? You light yours when you're ready. I mean, there's so many different ways to get it done. You just have to make sure that it's happening.
What do you do when the other person doesn't like that they're very selfish and it's kind of like, wait, what we're done? Like like want to try to like you know, it's and yeah, So what would you say to the women that are kind of in that situation where it's just like and they don't even seem to really care or try or to like attempt to like get the person off.
Yeah, this is.
Why it's so important to have this conversation and share the for intimacy styles with a partner, because you can have that conversation without it being accusatory. Oh, we're supposed to both be experiencing release. Oh we're supposed to both be being giving, instead of it being you're all released and you leave me high and dry. Sometimes sometimes, yeah, I think it's so important that you have that conversation.
You say, hey, I know that maybe after you get off, you're exhausted, or you're in like your own world, you don't even realize what's going on. But maybe I need to seek my pleasure before you experience your climax, because otherwise it's not happening, or you know, sometimes it's all about what it is that you're doing, the positions that you're experiencing. But speak up. So many women do not speak up because they don't think it's lately. I wrote
about that in the book too. They don't think it's ladylike. They don't think, you know, they're supposed to be, you know, all after the pleasure. But if their partners think that they're doing okay, they're going to do the minimum and we're going to be less resentful.
Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, for I feel like in my like I've just found my voice, I think with like sex, which is so interesting because it was probably towards the very end of my relationship where I'm like, hey, like I'm in this too, Like can I can I have a little something afterwards? I mean, I think the voice also comes with like growing an age and yeah, that's where they say, like women in like their late thirties, forties or you know, know what
they want and they are going to speak up. Yeah, and it's true. Are you do you feel like you're there?
Yeah?
I mean because it's like, then what are what are? What is the other option? You're going to live another forty years not being pleasured.
Right or being like I guess I'll just grab my vibrator from the side table. It's like it's either passive aggressive, you're resentful, or you go somewhere else or you look somewhere else.
So yeah, yeah, you're gonna end up losing interest, which is the last thing that your partner really wants, because you'll end up losing interest in sex, and then guess what, You'll lose interest in them.
And then someone else will probably look shiny somewhere else. You'll be like, oh well, I can. I'm sure they'd have sex with me.
They look like they have a rounded out intimacy soyle. But I do think it all goes back to even if you haven't found your voice, Let's say you're in your twenties, let's say you're inexperienced. Let's say you're in your forties and inexperience, whatever it is. I do think it's important to say I have something that I want to be able to talk to you about, like our intimacy style. And again, the book is such a great catalyst for these conversations because you're saying, this is what
this expert is saying, what do you think? How are we measuring up? You don't have to accuse, you don't have to criticize, You just bring up the conversation. You know, I use the five Old languages all the time in my practice. It is such a great way to just get that conversation started. Emotional intimacy that otherwise couples may not want to talk about because it may come up
as a criticism. It's the same thing with the four intimacy styles, talking about how rounded out you are or how you need to kind of tweak things to be rounded out, there's no criticism.
Well, I am so excited to read the four Intimacy Styles and everyone that's listening go get your book. And where else can our listeners find you?
Yeah, everything on line is doctor Diviana dot com. Just spell it out, Doctor Vivianna dot com on for Intimacy Styles dot com is where you can find the three order for the book. I'm really excited to talk about sex in a way that people can all people can feel like it's it's something that they can talk about in a way that isn't taboo. It's you know, it's really appropriate for what we're all trying to do, which is just be in love and be in love forever in connection.
I love it. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll be back with more sex talk. Bye girl, Thank you so much. That was awesome. Appreciate you. Okay, Okay, Mark, let's get our mind out of the bedroom, although it's really fun to be there. But we have any emails.
Yeah, and these might take you back into the bedroom. It goes Caitlin and some of.
These are a little heavy, but Caitlin asks aside from well, okay, so it's time to get personal Chatta. Aside from Mike's obvious infidelity, were there other issues in the relationship.
Maybe one's not as big and glaring.
Is a problem that you looked past for a long time for the sake of having your family unit and having a partner, where they are red flags present in addition to the sex addiction aspect.
You know, I thought I was like helping other people with these emails.
This is just like, is this uncomfortable? Now You're I'm consortable just saying.
You know, there there is a thing called the pros and cons list that you do when you are I think in high school or middle school, maybe now these days, or maybe that's just aging me because maybe kids don't do pros and cons anymore.
I think they did.
Did you ever do a pros and cons list? But then you broke up with someone, You're like, here's the pros for sure?
Oh? I think I don't think that's something that goes away with generations.
Oh you don't think so?
No, I don't think so. Okay, I mean they're probably doing it in the notes app on their photo or something.
But people shall make that list, Like you know, I still like pull out the paper, still like here's my notebook. If I was just talking to my buddy Justin Sylvester about this on his podcast, and I think at the end of the day, and again, this is something Catherine, when I was having my my mental breakdown on Laurel Canyon a few weeks ago in la you put the cheating and infidelity aside, there's a list of other things that are still very that are not acceptable as a husband,
like lying and some the characteristics. I'll say, there's characteristics that were very hard to overlook that just wasn't getting better.
And I think again cheating aside, it's very hard when you look at the characteristics of Okay, this is you know, this person is has a history of lying, has a you know, so yes, there there were that was what really, at the end of the day helps me sleep at night knowing that because of these some of these certain characteristics and my characteristics that we just don't gel well together in the end of the day. Yes, how's that answer?
Very dipresab I thought it was great. Do you fear that you are drawn to people who have these characteristics?
So my issue is I am drawn to people that will never fully love me because it's something that I I always want, and for some reason, I go to the people that I know deep down can never love me the way that I want to be loved. And so my battle is I want to show and prove that I'm lovable and worthy enough and try to win that person. That's my issue, and that's something you're working on, Yes, very hard with a therapist. Yeah, with you know who you guys talked to last week, Amy or a few
weeks ago, Ama, Alexander. Yeah, that's that's definitely because I look back. I I have this journal from back from two thousand and two, and I look back and I'm like, why did I stay in that abusive relationship? Why did I stay in this situation when this person was cheating? Why did I? And it's like, if I loved myself enough, I would have never stayed after Mike che had done me a month into our relationship, ever, never, because I would have known my worth. I would have known that
I was good. I did not deserve that, that I was good enough that I didn't need his his actions to confirm that I'm enough. And that's where I want to be in my next relationship, where I know my worth so much that I will not settle for a second for what I know. And now again, nobody's perfect. I'm not perfect. Still a lot of stuff I'm gonna
have to work on in the next relationship. But again it comes down to the characteristics of someone and how they treat you, and not staying with someone that doesn't fill your.
Cup all right, as Devon Franklin says, filled cups, filled cups exactly.
This is from Morgan and it's even heavier.
Okay, great.
My question, unfortunately revolves around a painful part of your past, so apologies, miscarriage and trying to conceive. My husband and I miscarried in January of twenty twenty decided to try again right away.
Since then, we've been unable to conceive. When we've found out that.
I have endometriosis, we're about to go into our fifth IUI attempt, and I have decided that IVF is not an option for us. My question, I guess, is when do you give up and accept the fact that it just might not happen. I've been struggling with this, but the ups and downs of getting excited and hopeful and then crushed when the next period comes is just taking
a huge toll on me. I better off getting away from all of that heartache and moving on and just being happy with my life and wonderful husband.
Or should we keep trying for children.
I mean, it clearly sounds it's something. First of all, sorry you have to go through all that if it's obviously your love and your desire to be a mom is very present because you're taking those steps. And I know you said that IVF isn't for you, I would just I don't know anything honestly about endemetriosis, but I would just say, even though you say IVF isn't for you, maybe look into it just a little bit more. I don't know if again I don't know, like if you
can't do endemetriosis with IVF, I'm not really sure. But iuis are not as effective as IVF, and again I know how expensive it can be and all those things. But I think when your love and your desire to have that family for me personally, I would want to do everything I poss simply could to say, okay, I've now done everything I could, which is as aggressive as IVF is as aggressive as okay, and demetriosis, how can we as you know, is there a way that we
could maybe save money for surrogacy or adoption. That to me is when and if all those things those boxes were, then you know, okay, we tried it, we tried it, we can't we physically can't afford it, or we you know, check check, check check. That is then when it says okay, God like, maybe this wasn't the plan, and that is when I could walk away. But I would for me personally, I would have to check off all those boxes.
I would too, and I never had to go through that, thankfully. But did you buy.
UI or I went straight to IVF because I heard that it was more right.
That's what Yeah, that's what I've heard. But I would do the same.
I would try everything, all boxes until there was you know, I mean, you can't leave yourself no money, but you know, I would try everything to be a.
Mom, Heather says, Hi Janna Mark and Easton ah Well, listening to the podcast today, I had a thought about something that hasn't really been touched on.
My question is mostly for the boys.
Yeah, out of the news of Jane's divorce hit you, did you suspect it would one day come to this or were you completely blown away.
Oh.
I love getting Mark and Easton and on this. This is great. I love how Easton just like popped into It's like I'm here. But this is a great question though, because you know, we were a family, all of us together, So I am, yeah, I'm curious to know that too. Thanks for the question.
I I'll go first only because I was widely quoted in a number of publications about this.
Yes, you were. We never talked about that, but yes.
It was weird. It was so.
Weird because I feel like you've been quoted before, haven't you at Seacrest.
I mean maybe at some point, but it was still it still kind of came out of nowhere, and I didn't see it coming. I was like, hey, that's my name. It's very It's always odd to see your name in US weekly, and when you're me, you know, when you're you, you're.
Probably used to it.
But anyway, I was totally blown away, and I acknowledged in the article that maybe that makes me stupid, but I said, on this very show, I said to you two, I said, I can't guarantee that you're going to be together forever, but I am sure.
I'm convinced that Mike will not stray again.
I had the wolf pulled over my eyes, just like everybody else did, because I was convinced that he had done the work and was in a really good place. So when I heard that things had gone super sold for you guys and this may be the end, I'm so stupid. I thought something else has happened, something else.
Has gone wrong. It can't be that.
It's anything but that, And of course that's the obvious thing, and of course that's what it was. So yes, I was absolutely shocked by that.
Yes, I mean I feel the same way. I really.
I mean, with all due respect, I have seen Jena, I've seen you and Mike fight more than I think anyone else in my life.
I've been there, like intimately for a lot of it.
But I really, I really, I was convinced that he had beaten that part of his challenges.
I really thought that if you guys.
Were going to split out, what was going to be for uh, I don't know, I mean, he was I know, he spent a lot of money on those app games, Like I thought it was gonna be something like that.
I really didn't think, I don't know, I was I.
Was totally blindsided by that, and it it really I don't know, I just I felt like as a child of divorce, like I I, it brought back a lot of similar feelings because I was like so conflicted about this person that I'd become close to and that I thought I knew, and then this, you know, I I was discovering things I didn't know and and severity I wasn't really aware of. And uh, I don't know, it's a it's a really it's a really weird feeling to have, but I was.
I was definitely blindsided by.
That, which makes me feel a little less crazy because honestly, like when I did see the thing mark when you quoted that, I was just like, oh, he's just he's lying about that, Like of course he saw it. Like you know, we fought all the time, and you know, you know I was snippy at times or I was this or you know, and but it makes me feel like, okay, like he was good, Like he had us all kind
of fooled. And so that was where I'm like, because I it just makes me feel like I'm not as crazy as I thought I was.
I feel like the snippiness and such was always justified from the previous behavior, Like, I know, that's how difficult that is to get over and regain the trust. So I totally understood that. I just felt like, so I never felt like that was inappropriate. I just felt like,
you tw were moving in a really good direction. And I also think, and I don't know Mike well enough, and it would be inappropriate for me to say this about him, So I just speak generally, when a person lies so deeply it became comes like it becomes real to them. It seems like it becomes and then then they're really good at it because when it becomes their own reality, it's easy to sell it to friends, coworkers, family, whoever, because they're just like, it's like they're not playing a
role anymore. They've become that fake PERSONA.
It's scary.
And that's a my therapist I say, she's like, that's a that's a very scary thing when you can lie that deep and that and convince that many people. And yeah, I think, and that's that's the hardest part, because I mean, like I was, yeah, I mean the book, I mean, all of it is just it was like the biggest kind of blindsided betrayal lie and it's it's still hard to sit with. But I mean, Catherine, I think, has a very opposite opinion.
Well, I will say I think everybody. I think everybody thought y'all were really good. Yeah, and me included, I did think y'all were really good, minus a few little.
Things, even the last fifteen months.
Yeah, I thought y'all were really good.
Like there's a few things that came up.
With Well, there were definitely a few things that were on the phone.
What was like someone downloaded or what that.
Yes, there were several things, and then just like little things that we saw in the past, his behavior would kind of allude to things going on. So I think I think everybody thought you were good. I thought y'all were really good. I think, you know, putting out the book, about to work on another book. I mean, I wanted to think that everything was good. But I just had a very hard time believing him, just to be completely honest,
you know. I mean, my mom was a big liar, you know, and so I recognized liars, and I just always had hard time believing him. I Mean, I loved him, you know, and I wanted to believe him, and I wanted to believe that y'all could really work through this and make it work.
But ultimately saw so ultimately I was.
Wondering when the other shit would drop for sure, sadly, I mean, I hate to say that, but that's the truth.
Did you guys pull the book or did the book get a boost in sales out of curiosity or did it just kind of tank?
Like I'm just curious.
I have no idea, honestly, I haven't even asked. But we, like two weeks before finding out everything, we had gotten another book deal about trust. Wow, the book was going to be about trust.
I mean we'd had a call about it like a week if not less about like like call about trust.
Can I imagine? Like, oh my god, Like I mean, first of all, how could we even be on that call? Like, but I mean, what a thank God? Because I already feel so Yeah, but again the first book, I'm my words were very true and my experiences were true and yeah, but yeah, total, that's it's tough. It's very and it's very hard now to not be just so angry about just all of it. But angry is not gonna it's just not good for anybody.
No, But it's understandable.
Yeah, I'm just yeah, yeah, just yeah, just be honest everybody out there, can you just tell the truth and just yeah, that's all blot all, I got all I got. But yeah, yeah, I mean I can't even imagine, like people, Hey, the end of the day, I know what I get to tell my kids when we have a very grown up conversation, and I'll be proud of what I what I get to tell them.
That's gonna be interesting.
Because my parents split up when I was like ten and they got back together again after like six months. I don't have the ability to google why that all went down and how it went like, that's all going to be out there, and that's that's interesting. That's just a whole new level of something like this. But like you say, you know, the side of your streets clean if that's the expression.
Yeah, And I wish that they didn't have to, you know, And a lot of people think that I was the reason why it was out there, and I'm like, let us remind everyone. He came on the podcast to talk about it. I didn't force him. He was the one that I was like, oh, wow, we're going to talk about this, like we even have a recording of that, going like you want to talk about this? So that was not my decision. I mean, like, again, it came out in US Weekly, that was already out there. Did
I want to talk about it? Sure, I would have loved to, But I was never forcing him telling him to talk about it. So yeah, because he came on as a guest, and I was like, all right, I guess he's good to talk about it. Okay, we're going there. And from there, I mean, you know, that's when we continue to speak on it. And looking back, I think that was the you know, that was he had pressure around that and him, you know, dealing with that was
was hard. Always being the bad guy, And what I say to that is just don't keep messing.
Up like people made you out to be a bad guy. The bad guy a lot of it, which was very hard to sit and watch. If I'm you know, people's comments coming after you a lot. He wasn't always the bad guy. I mean, I understand that point of view, and.
It's mostly watch this or do that too, controlling blah blah blah.
They were coming after you too, So I'm just saying it wasn't just him, and I didn't cheat.
That's so interesting though, that he always complained about being the bad guy, and he never stopped doing the things that made him.
A bad guys.
Like, it's like, people keep calling me a criminal as you're walking out of the bank with bags of money in each hand.
Isn't that the like what's the saying?
Like if you do something over and over, it's like insanity or something like that.
Just you stop, just stop.
Yeah, but you know, hopefully he's healthy now for the kid's sake. So AnyWho, let's talk about something else. Back to Oh good, see now I got captain. Back to that's great. I'd like to go have some right now. Oh my goodness, gracious, Well, guys, I think that's a show. I think I'm talked out. We're at the lake right now, so I want to get back out there.
I love you, guys,