Wind Down with Janet Kramer, an iHeartRadio podcast.
The Gangs in Vancouver. Hey guys, we're finally on like the West coast with you guys. This is kind of nice.
Yeah, same time, real time, same time.
Real time.
We're in Vancouver. We are quarantining right now. We are very fortunate because we're in a house which my one director friend who directed the last movie I was in, he was in a small one bedroom like hotel for fourteen days. I don't think I could do it, like not being able to just because here at least we're able to escape like downstairs or.
Outside.
I mean, he couldn't even go outside like that just like gives me so much anxiety thinking about that.
Even for me who loves you know, my me time and isolation after like a third day, like get me out of here. I'm good, but like I.
Think my issues and you know, if I'm being totally honest, the first night or the first morning that I woke up in this place was I had really bad anxiety because it's just being told you can't leave is what gives me, like being feeling I'm trapped and that that's kind of where my PTSD comes from. You know from that long time ago, and so just like that feeling of like trapped and oh my gosh, what if something happens?
And but then that's when I go through everything in my brain like Okay, well what can happen, Jana, like what would happen? You know, and kind of have like an answer for the follow up does that make sense?
Yeah? So when you get that way on the plane, what do you say? What are my options?
My options are, you will land this plane right now, and look, anything can happen. You can always land a plate, but you don't want to be that person to land the plane anything.
I've been, you know this morning when you like nudge me and like Jolie's walking around, I had not vertigo, but that feeling where because we're so tired last night and I crashed so hard. When I woke up, I was like trying to get my bearings. I didn't know where the hell we were. I was like expecting to wake up and see our room, but I'm like it was all different. It just took me in like that split second that felt like in eternity, am I dreaming? Where the hell are we? What is going on?
Yeah?
It's it's crazy, but it's something my therapist told me, which was super helpful. She's like, when you get in that anxious place, like go to gratitude, go to being grateful that you know you're able to spend this time with your kids and you know, have really one on one time with them. So that's where I'm trying.
To go, you know, yeah, for sure.
And then knowing we were kind of getting bored in Nashville because i mean, we've pretty much been quarantined and stuck in our house for the last year, so it's nice to have a little bit of a change up.
Yeah, if we're gonna do it, might as we'll do it somewhere new and exciting and fresh. And except this morning, we were trying not to blow our low too quick because.
We're like, that's nice, like dad, don't use all the cards.
Let's play Hide and go seek, let's play tag, let's play free tag, let's play Simon says, let's play right light green light. Like whoa, whoa, whoa. We're throwing our whole parental bag at the kids in the first morning. Yeah, So it's like even this afternoon, we're like, okay, what now.
And we have so many more days to go. I am really excited about today's episode in Today's guest, But before we talk about who's coming on, let's.
Take a quick break.
So I had someone reach out to me a couple months ago, and I'd heard of Lisa, but I really didn't know her story. Lisa Turkhurst is an amazing author. She's a number one New York Times bestselling author of It's Not Supposed to Be This Way Uninvited, in twenty other books. The book that I'm reading right now is Forgetting What you Can't Forget, and I'm halfway through it and there's just so many times when I'm reading the book I'm like, oh, yeah, Like it's just she's a
really good author. But she also has such a personal story as well that she writes in our book in her books, and so I'm really, really really pumped to have her on because she's a big deal. Oh yeah, is she a minute like because she works with ministries.
No, I don't think she's personally a minister, but a lot of her stuff has you know, religious backing and religious and Christian beliefs and motivation and stuff behind it. So big believer in Christ and big believer in God
and Follower. So you know, that's a lot of what she talks about at speaking engagements and in her books, you know, she mentions that, and so I'm curious to talk to her about that aspect of it and has that been something that she's always had in her life or is this something with the events that she's gone through personally it became stronger, you know what I mean.
So that and also she also does she has online Bible studies and then workbooks along to go with her books.
So I'm super pumped to get her on. So why don't we just get her on now?
Let's do it.
Hi.
Hello, good to see you, guys.
Good to see you. How are you doing great?
Thank you?
First of all, I'm just so thankful that you're coming on this podcast.
Thank you.
I have so many people that reach out to me and say that you know, our stories are similar, and you know, to read your books, and I cannot tell you how much I'm loving forgiving what you can't forget. I now I want to go back because I want to know more you know about about everything, But I guess I just kind of want to jump in you in the book, you said you were married was it thirty years before?
Almost thirty years Yeah, so at the time that this happened, it was I think we had been married twenty five years.
Wow.
And it's it's interesting because when I was reading your book and something that I was just like shaking my head on the plane too. It's it's the like your own personal BC and AD, which usually means before Christ but it was whenever we have conversation, it's like, well, it's like before the affair or and it's just it registered so much with me because everything is before that or after.
But how did you How did.
Did he come to you? Because I don't know that that story. I know that's which which book is that.
In It's not supposed to be this way, but I don't typically talk about how the revelation came. But yeah, I can tell you he did not come to me. I discovered it, which, again, for the forgiveness journey, makes it even harder.
So hard.
And I think that's something where when people come to us and they say that they told them, I'm like, that's that's almost a gift that they gave the other person, because for me, I'm like, what I would have given for you to be to have. It's not that respect, but just like that honesty, you know, just knowing that, like you respect me enough to even though you've hurt me to know that it's.
You know, to come to me and tell me.
Yeah.
So I definitely empathize with you on that. And when did you go okay, like this is worth fighting for. I think I had that revelation right from the very beginning. I mean, part of it is we have five grand kids, and in twenty sixteen, three of our five kids were getting married, and so there were a lot of dynamic in play. But I never ever had this feeling of like.
I don't want to be married. I've never had that feeling. And so I think for some people, you know, when they find out there were there are already some dynamics in place where it's kind of like, uh, you know, I don't even know if I want to be married to this person anymore. That was not the situation with me. I mean my husband, I've you know, met him when I was young. I was in my early twenties. We got married when I was young, and I never I never had that feeling of I don't want to be married.
And I definitely never had the feeling that I didn't want to be married to him, and so the whole thing was so shocking to me. I don't know that it ever occurred to me not to fight for.
The marriage and remind myself and our listeners. So that was twenty sixteen that discovery happened. Yes, okay, so that's the same Yeah, timeline is us, Yeah, same.
Year, Dan, That year sucked for us. Huh.
Yeah. Yeah, that was a very very hard year. So of course it's like before two thy sixteen, after twenty sixteen, you know. And what's so complicated is I look back on pictures, like especially from twenty fifteen, when you know, I just didn't know what I didn't know that year, and I look at the Christmas card picture, I look at family vacation pictures, and it's they I really wrestled through having to to make peace with those memories. And at first I just wanted to throw everything away. I
just I was just so shocked. But then I kind of had this revelation that if those were beautiful memories to me, I get to keep them, and whatever's too painful, I can throw those away. But I don't want pain to go back and rewrite the memories, because you know, there were beautiful memories that were still made and I didn't want to throw them all away.
I have a couple of questions around that topic because we just kind of experienced that just a week or two ago, because it was our daughter's fifth birthday and so you know, Janna was going back and looking at pictures when she was born that we were showing our daughter and that she posted on social media, and it brings that stuff up for both of us. And I know, just from my side of things personally too, it's just as hard in a different way to look at that. Granted,
mine has a history of addiction attached to it. So I look at those pictures, I'm like, I don't even know who the hell I was. Does your husband have some kind of you know, shame or feelings around that where he looks back and he's just he hits him again too.
Yes, And you know, our story again very similar, is there were a lot of addictions that were at play, and you know, the addiction cycle is brutal, and so you know, I feel like it's something even even today, we're still navigating, you know, And I mean, you can you can be on the road to healing. But those addictions are so powerful, and if you don't stay on top of them constantly every single day, they can start
to creep back up. So you know, my heart goes out to you because I very much know that I have to say to myself sometimes I'm you know, especially back then, my counselor taught me to say, you are not talking to the husband that you know and love,
you are talking to the addiction. And that helped me because when the addiction was just so stirred up and so all consuming, I found myself in love with the idea of who I knew my husband could be, rather than being honest with myself about what was actually happening.
But when my counselor talk to me and just said, you need to put a pillow in front of your face right now, when he's active in his addiction, you're talking to the addiction, but that pillow, you're not actually talking to the husband that you know and love.
That's so true.
I want to go back to the because I was what you said. I was, you know, reading that in the book as well, like you want to enjoy your wedding album again, and I want to be able to, you know, look back on our baby moon and all these things. But it's like, and I know that my therapist that's kind of said the same thing, like, those are your memories. You don't have to to forget those, But how do you stop yourself from ruminating? Ruminating because
that's where I go. I'm like, oh, well that was when this happened, And I'm not able to look at the happy memories because I can't stop myself from going to well he was off doing X, Y and Z.
It's a great question, and I think it's attention to manage. It's not going to be a problem to solve. And what I mean by that is there are going to be some days where you're fine with it, and then there are going to be other days where, for whatever reason, it becomes a major trigger. And in terms of forgiveness, you know, that's why it was really important to me not to say forgive and forget, because that's not in the Bible, and honestly, I'm not even sure that that's
honestly possible. And it does say in the Bible that God takes our sins and casts them to the depths of the sea, and remembers them no more. But I could not find in the Bible where humans have the ability to forgive and forget. We can forgive and at the same time remember the pain and walk through the process. That's why forgiveness is both a decision and a process,
and it's important to make room for both. You make the one time decision to forgive for the fact of what happened, but then you have to walk through the very long process of forgiving for the impact that this has had on you. And there was a there was an emotional debt created. So if it was a five dollars debt, like someone inconvenienced you, you can probably forgive and forget. But when it's betrayal and the most sacred relationship, the most sacred human relationship you have, that's like a
five million dollar debt. Of course you're going to remember it. So you just have to be honest with yourself. And some days you're going to be okay looking at those pictures and other days you're not. But you know, the choice is really like I said, it's attention to manage. It's not a problem to solve. And over time, this is what I'm finding. Over time, the goodness of today can help backfill some some pieces and parts of the past story. And you you, guys, this is this is
your journey. So you guys get to talk about it, you get to land on it, You get to decide what questions will you ask them, what questions will you not ask? And you get to decide are there spaces where even when you look at those pictures, that the authentic husband that you know and love was there, and
the other parts the addiction was there. But you get to navigate that because it's your journey and there's no right or wrong way to do it, you know, it's just that that is one of the brutal consequences of infidelity.
Yeah, I feel like that helps with also like knowing that, Okay, I might be able to look at this one day and be happy with it, but then also give myself grace when the next day I might be like, how could you you know, like and then have that.
So I think that's a good reminder.
As you know, being a follower of Christ and you know religion and everything. Has that always been a part of your personal life, of your relationship with your husband or did it increase once you guys went through this trauma together.
I think it's been a pretty consistent part of our relationship. But I think what's so hard is it's hard for me to reconcile the addiction and at the same time a relationship with Christ because those two things don't match in my brain. But at the same time, I know addiction is not my issue, but I have issues and sometimes I step knee deep into sin. And I very much love Jesus. So you know, I heard a really good quote recently. My counselor said, you're either in empathy
or judgment. There's no one between. And so I've started to ask myself, you know, who do I really want to be? And I want to be somebody who represents Jesus. And Jesus didn't walk around in judgment. He walked around in empathy because he saw the plight of of humanity. It is a brutal journey to be human and live in a sin soaked world. So here's the caution. Though you can be in empathy and at the same time draw really secure boundaries, and boundaries aren't meant to shove
another person away. Boundaries are meant to hold yourself together. And so when you've been the one that's been betrayed. For me, I want to walk in empathy, but at the same time, I want to have boundaries to say this is acceptable, this is not acceptable. And this is an area that we still need to do some therapy around because I can't figure it out.
How has your husband been with the publicity of you know, y'all's relationship, what you've been through personally? Was that something he was supportive of from the beginning. Was that something you know he had shame around?
Yeah, and and why did you want to share? I mean, I know our reasons, but in wondering if they're aligned.
To well to some extent, we didn't get to have that choice because I live a pretty public life, and so things were coming out and our story was either going to be told in the rumor mil or we could get ahead of it and tell it, you know, with truth. So unfortunately we didn't really have a choice. The story was going to come out. But my husband
had a really healthy perspective right from the beginning. You know, he would say the day that everything came out was simultaneously the worst day of his life and the best day of his life. It was the worst day because everybody knew. It was the best day because now everybody knew. And so he would say, now when he walks into a room, he doesn't have to figure out who knows and who doesn't know. He walks into a room, now he assumes everyone knows. Therefore he gets to choose how
he walks in the room. And he said he could walk in as a villain, but he realizes we have an enemy and it's not him, or he could walk in as a victim. You know, he's had past traumas that very much fed into this. But he doesn't want to be a victim. He wants to walk in that room as a redeemed man walking in victory. And he always says he'll be the safest person.
In the room.
I love that because I mean, me and our stories really do mirror each other because we're the same and we didn't really have a choice, and even though we didn't, I still kind of wanted to sweep things under the rug, and just I wanted to avoid and I was telling jan it's like, if we just don't talk about it, it'll go away. And that was just me being naive. And now I think back on it, and what your
husband said. The way he said it is so true because I don't have that fear of maybe they're acting weird towards me because they know but not everyone else does. I'm like, I am who I am everyone here, even if I don't know you, you know me to an extent, so whatever here, I am. So I love how you know he said that, because that just definitely registers for me now. It didn't at first, but it does.
I guess I want to ask, because we're the same years since discovery, do you still have those days where it's it's not unmanageable, but you have such like still anger in your heart and you might lash out or is it just me asking for a friend.
Asking for a friend l of course, of course, of course you still get triggered. Of course that pain still comes up. Of course it does. And it's so good for me to talk to other women who walk this journey, because sometimes I seriously feel like I'm the crazy one, Like what in the world you know I should be? I should be better by now, I should be more
healed by now. But human relationship are so complex. On the one level, it seems kind of simple, like be nice, be empathetic, you know, love each other, you know what I'm saying, But I mean there's complexities that we've in and out of a relationship, and you double triple that when there's been trauma in the relationship. So I just want to say, of course, you still struggle some days with anger, and it doesn't mean you're not forgiving. If
you've made the decision to forgive. Now you're just in the process of figuring out the impact that this had on you. And it is okay that you have days that are better than others, and it's okay that these feelings bubble up, but it is your choice what you do with them. And so for me, it's important for me to be honest about how I feel. But I don't always need to process all of those feelings with my husband. I definitely don't need to process them with
you know, certain family members who can't handle that. It's really good for me to process it with my counselor. And or if you don't have a counselor, then a safe friend who has a lot of love for both of you, and who probably the safest kind of friend would be a mature friend who's further down this exact journey that you've taken, you know than you are. And so I heard a really good quote about trauma, and I've been I've been pondering this over and over and over,
especially when trust has been broken. Trust is built time plus believable behavior, and so there's going to be a lot of time that has to go by. But relationships cannot survive without trust. Trust really is the oxygen of human relationships. And so trust can be broken in an instant, but to rebuild it could take a very long long time.
But here's how you'll know when you trust but verify that you're on the right path rebuilding trust is if you were to be in a moment where you need to verify something and you say can I see your phone or can I look at your computer? And if he says, we're still dealing with this, like are you kidding? We should be further down the road, like this is ridiculous. Then when that kind of script comes up, that means
that it's gonna set you backwards in your trust. So what my counselor helped my husband understand because at first we were having this weird, dysfunctional dance with it all because it was tapping into his shame. But my counselor said, don't personalize it. Don't personalize it. And instead of saying, are you kidding? You still so dealing with this, instead of that say to her, of course, of course you want to check my phone. And you know what, I'm so happy to have you check my phone because I
want you to see I'm telling the truth. And that has helped a lot. Yeah.
No, I love that piece, and I think it is hard on you know, our husband's side too, because there are times when I'm like, you know, I just don't feel comfortable with that, and You're right, it does go into their shame. It's like, well, am I going to be able to go out? And you know in another five years, like I'm always gonna have to deal with this. And we kind of got into it the other day and I'm like, I wish we didn't have to, but like this is unfortunately, like I might just have more
days that I'm more triggered. And it's and but you know, he thinks that maybe is a it's like about control or I'm like, it has nothing to do with that. It's truly just a safety thing. And you know, and I hope in ten years will be better. But I mean we've come real far from five years, you know, wherever long that is. So you know, I have to imagine the next five if we keep building, will be
able to be at a better place. But it's unfortunately, it's always going to be there, no matter if it's five years or twenty years.
Yeah, I mean I think for at least me personally, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of men in the situation is you know, I would rather it be direct, kind of like you're saying, Lisa, and Jane is doing a better job at doing that too, Like, hey, can I see this because I'm feeling a little whatever
mine is. I know Jane well enough or us. She'll start like asking these questions and they're like probing questions, and I know there's something underneath of it, and I'm like, just come out and say what you need to say. And because when it's like multiple questions one after the other,
then it's like I feel like I'm being tested. I feel like I'm being manipulated, like coached into a corner where no matter what I say, there's going to be a reaction, when really there's something underneath of it, And so that's where I struggle the most, is like the patience with that or the ability to even if I see it, to be like, hey, what's really going on right here? Talk to me, you know, and like be an inviting you know, place for her, an inviting safe place.
As you found the other day. Though sometimes you don't know what's underneath that at the time, like there's something, but you haven't, like I don't, like I just feel it in my chest. So I want to ask, but I don't know. So how do you You're basically a therapist now, so how do we navigate towards that?
This is?
How much do we owe you?
So I'm gonna I'm going to sidestep the question because I think I'm going to give something that'll be helpful. I don't always know what I'm feeling either, and sometimes if I'm pushed to identify the feeling, it makes me panicycause I don't I don't want to own a feeling I'm not really having. But if I can't figure out
the feeling, I'm scared. I'm going to say something and then an hour from now, I'm like, wait, that was the wrong feeling, And now I'm held accountable to a feeling I wasn't even really you know, And it's very complicated. I'm a nine wing eight on the Enneagram. It basically means like I can't even figure out sometimes what like am I angry? Am I sad am? I mad am? I depressed? Am I actually elated? Am I am in dread?
What is this? And it takes a long time. But if I can have a minute to process, I may not be able to identify the exact feeling, but I can just say I don't know what this is, but here's what it's causing me to want to do. And so that's a little bit easier. But in the book Forgiving what you can't forget, and I don't think it's in every copy. I think it's in the Bible study, and also in a special edition that Target did, there's
this section called the Divine Echo. And so the reason I said I want to sidestep this a little bit is sometimes we can get just really caught up in the tunnel of chaos, where you're going back and forth and there's hurt here and there's shame here, and when hurt bumps into shame, it's just never a beautiful situation, right, So one day I was so discouraged over this because I just felt like I'm crying over what happened still, and I don't I just sometimes wonder like are we
really going to make it? And I don't know if you guys ever had that. And then I'm like, but we've been fighting so hard for this, and of course we're going to make it. But then I don't know, like, are we really going to make it? And so one day the Lord said, you are trying to look so far down the road. Let's just let's just focus on what what can you do today to fight well today? And so I was looking in Genesis, and anybody that knows me, I have an absolute obsession with Genesis one, two,
and three. I know it's a strange thing to be obsessed about. Even my therapist said, this is like my coping mechanism. Like I was in this therapy group and all these people have these really exciting coping mechanisms, and it got around to me and I was like, I think I read the Bible. Maybe I over spiritualized things. So I don't know, I'm kind of a boring person, but I have a true pssession with Genesis one, two,
and three, so hang with me here. Then the Bible talks about what ingredients God chose to make the man and what ingredients God chose to make the woman. This is really fascinating. Why on earth would God have chosen dust to make the man from? And why would he have chosen broken off bone to make the woman from? I mean, if you think about it, dust, I mean
God had access to everything. So if I was making a suggestion to God, I'd be like, Okay, the man needs to be made out of gold and the woman needs a made out of diamonds, and God had access to that. But instead he made the man out of dusty, he made the woman that had broken off bone. So today, if you're dusting your house and you take the dust rack, nobody ever said, oh, precious dust, you're so amazing, Like, let me just set you on a shelf and honor
you for a minute. No nobody ever said that, Like, you don't even think about the dust. You wipe it away and you throw it away, right and with broken off bone. Now, some people like to decorate with broken off bones, so just set that aside. But like, typically if you're like on a hike and you see like an animal carcass or like rib bones or something, You're
not gonna be like, oh wow, that's so beautiful. No, like broken off bone is a sign that decay has happened and it needs to be buried, right, And so I was really fascinated by this, but I realized that those weren't the only ingredients. Man is not just dust, he's also breath of God. And woman is not just broken off bone. She's touch of God, design of God. And we have to remember that we have a choice every day to speak to the dust and the broken off bone, or we can speak to the full picture
of who man and woman really is. And there's this beautiful scripture that it says it's not good for the man to be alone? Can I get an amen on that one? Love that Bible verse? So God created a helper suitable for him. So what in the world does that mean? Like what is a wife? What am I supposed to do? And when I researched the original language, that word means two things. It's negeed and what it
means is royalty and it also means reflection. So the woman, when you put all that together, the woman supposed to be in front of the man, reflecting back to him and reminding him, you're not just dust. You're also breath of God, and you were formed from royalty. You were made in the image of God, meant to fill the earth up, not just populate the earth, but fill the earth up with evidence of God's goodness in God's glory.
And then the woman, the man is supposed to reflect to the woman, you are not just broken off bone. You were touch of God, design of God. In every space you walk into, you have such an ability to fill the earth up with the evidence of God's goodness
in God's glory. Can you imagine how different it would be if we start taking back moments from the dysfunctional Dance and just paused in the middle of the day and say, you know what, your addiction and your affair, that was dust, but that's not all who you are. You are also breath of God. And so I'm going to speak some life over you in that space. And then you reflect back to her like, hey, you are
not just broken off bone. You're not just the angry woman who's triggered and upset about the pictures from the baby moon and all this stuff. You know who you are, Jana, you are touch of God, design of God, and speaking life over her and telling her you are beautiful, you
are significant, you are amazing. And just imagine if we start stealing back some memories in our day from the Dysfunctional Dance and we started I call this the divine echo, when we just started speaking this life over one another. And it's hard when you're angry and frustrated and hurt and triggered and all of that. But I'm just determined if we stole back moments and intentionally created life and started breathing life back into our relationships, I think it would be pretty amazing.
I mean, amen to all that.
I just I have to say it's really comforting because everything that you you know talk about, you know, even in this book, and I can't wait to go back to read your other ones. It's just it's just nice to not feel alone, and it's nice to not it's nice to know that, like, and that's why we wrote, you know, our book, because it's like, I just I don't want to be alone. I don't want to feel
like I'm alone. I got to think that someone else is out there that is feeling the same way, and I just I really, I really really really appreciate you, and I I am yeah, I'm just I'm thankful for you as a person, as an author is and I'm I can't imagine, well, I can't imagine.
But but.
You know, I just, yeah, I just thank you for everything that you do. And I'm excited to do your online Bible study stuff and all.
The worksheets too.
I I do want to ask, so, how was it for the kids, because that is something that I'm nervous about. But I know your kids are older, so I'm just curious how that.
You know they're still on their journey. And I think everyone in our family is still trying to find their way through therapy and find healing. So the hard part's obvious, but there's a good part too, is that I'm not sure we any of us, would have approached therapy with such intentionality as as we do now. But now it's like this urgent need, and my kids all recognize that,
you know, relationships take a lot of work. And I also think that they're not they're no longer terrified of the what ifs in life because we walked through them and we've survived, And you know, I think I'm walking in a lot more freedom with my kids now because I don't feel like I'm holding my breath when when when are they going to find out or when are they gonna you know, blame me or hate their dad or whatever. You know, I don't dabble in the wet ifs anymore. I just I just walk in reality and
I just really take it day by day. And the Bible says, you know, leave the worries of tomorrow in tomorrow, just like what is right in front of me today, because today has enough worries of its own. And so, you know, I think my kids are doing well. They love your podcast, by the way, I think I DMD you and was like when you sent the request in for the podcast, and my kids are like sucking all the air out of the room. I love them.
That's so sweet, you know, I appreciate. I hope people are really listening to what you're just talking about through the Book of Genesis and stuff, Lisa, because I'm one that appreciates the simplicity and complex situations, right, and when you're able to no matter the situation, when you're able
to look at it and simplify it. It can really help with the process of walking through it, of living through it, a feeling through it if you just kind of keep that mindset, because it might be simple, but it's not easy, right. So I appreciate personally that analogy and that that comparison to the Book of Genesis, and I hope our listeners again really intently listen to that part.
But we appreciate your time. We need to have you on every week because we have I know both of us have so many questions, so many more questions and topics we want to talk about because our timelines are so similar, our experiences are so similar. But we appreciate your time so much, Lisa, and we look forward to having you on again.
And where can our listeners find you? And will you come back on for like a part three four, two, three four or five?
Absolutely, But next time, y'all have to give me free therapy, Okay, So let us go back and forth on this thing.
Fair.
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Lisa Turkers. It's my name is y Essay. I know I have a very complicated name, but if you just go at l y Essay with a tea, then you'll find me, or you can go to my website Lisa Turkers dot com, or you can check out the ministry website Proverbs thirty one dot org.
Lisa, thank you so much and we'll talk very soon.
That sounds great.
Thank you appreciate it.
Bye bye.
I really want to get Lisa back on the show because I honestly there's so many more questions than I would love for her to also answer some questions of some of our listeners too, Oh for sure.
And I think again it's so fascinating because they didn't have a choice whether things came out. So many similarities, so I it's like I couldn't think fast enough at all the different questions I have for her. So we'll definitely get her back on. I mean, she's an unbelievable author, unbelievable person, so definitely have some more conversations with her.
Okay, let's take a break and then let's do an email. Let's do it, hey, Mark, do we have any emails?
As a matter of fact, we do. This is from Lindsay. My husband owned a successful business and about four years ago he had an assistant that I felt was getting too friendly with him. I had just had our first child, and I admit I threw myself one hundred percent into my new mommy role and neglected my husband and our marriage. My husband swore to me they didn't have a physical affair, but they may have had more of an emotional relationship
because it was lacking with me at the time. I have mutual friends with this girl, and one of them came to me and told me how much he talked about my husband and said she would totally hook up with my husband if he ever made a move. After crossing the line one too many times, I told my husband he had to choose her or me. He reduced her workloads so much that she had to quit and find another job. Fast forward to today. We're doing great.
We've had another kid since then. Recently, his ex assistant got a job at another company that does a lot of work with my husband's company. I found out by checking my husband's phone that they've started emailing each other again, and so far what I can see, it's all been work related, But I worry about that emotional connection starting again.
Do you think I need to bring this up to my husband and discuss my discomfort with the situation again, or should I just trust that he will remain faithful.
Okay, So I personally do not think that they should be emailing again if and I one hundred percent think that she should go to her husband and say, hey, you know, I did see this in your email and it makes me uncomfortable. I'm sorry if I looked at your email, but this is what's coming up for me, and just say it from a really vulnerable place. And I think it's okay for her to question, like, why
are you guys commune unicating again? Because I don't think they should be communicating again if they're not working together?
Am I off? Based on that?
I get what you're saying.
But so.
From the situation, the way I interpreted it was that she's working for a company that his company often works with, so they started communicating due to work. You know, work material. Work needs two things. One, if he was aware, which it's hard to say this, it's easier to say from the outside looking in for him to be like, hey, so and so works for this company. Now we had a cross paths because of this reason for work. I just wanted to bring it up.
To you and let you know that would have been the great thing.
To do for sure. But I but he.
Probably doesn't feel like well that's the thing.
As a guy. As a guy too, it's like he's not perfect, he might not be perfectly compartmentalizing. He's just like, Okay, this is work, Like, no matter who it is, it's just work. I never had anything with this woman.
But it's somebody that affected his wife for sure. That's where I'm like, No.
I know, women wish we were as aware as you guys. Yeah, but I'm just saying probably, you know, he probably wasn't. Also, yes, if she just goes to him from a good place and says, hey, this is coming up for me, this is bothering me. Can we figure this out? I don't think it's her place is to just immediately request please don't talk to her. I think it's like, hey, can we figure this out? Do you have to talk to her specifically? What is the reason for the work communication? And then go from there.
Would it be okay to say, when you do talk to her, can I be Can I look at your email if I ask, or can you tell me like when you communicate with her?
Because it bothers me just putting myself in his shoes. If she comes to him in a way of like, hey, here's the problem. Let's stand together, look at the problem. Let's figure out the best solution, instead of her coming saying like you can't talk to her, you know what I mean, Because then it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa, Like this is for work, you know, still nothing ever did happen.
But what lines?
I'm curious what lines were crossed, because there's still I mean, just like a lot of people, I mean, emotional affairs are just as deadly as physical affairs. They're just as hurtful. They're just as harmful. And to have that connection.
I think the one thing is that the first time when she requested, like hey, her or me, he lessened her hours and she ended up leaving. So like he abided by the boundaries the first time around. It didn't seem like he gave her shit for it. It didn't seem like he fought against it. Yeah, he complied with the request and he you know, went through with it. So I just think again, just to be careful here, Lindsey and approach it as, Hey, you and I are a team. This is the problem. Let's figure out the
most appropriate solution. For this together.
And I feel like the second that you start talking about your spouse to another man like issues is when you're opening the door for that spouse to come in. Whether you think you're doing that or not, I think that's a very open door because they know, like, Okay, I can, I can come in here. Right, it's not good, So hopefully that's not what he did either.
What do you say, babe?
What a show.
We'll see you next week. We'll still be quarantining. Bye.