Wind down with Janet Kramer.
Did iHeart radio podcast?
Should we just get right to the penises? Or what? What are we talking about today?
What penises? What are you referring to?
Which ones?
Yeah, there's a lot of them.
There's a lot of them. Which one are you referring to?
I don't know.
You said let's get to the penises, and I mean, my mind's going to a lot of places, so I know.
Did you see the headline last week?
The uh again? Which headlines?
Headlines? No, they were like they they picked up. It was just so silly because it's your faults, like you are the reason why that whole thing even started. They're like, why would she talk about that? I'm like, in my defense, technically Easton was the one that brought that up, Like there has to be something wrong with him, like I'm sure, like sure, he is a micro penis. I'm like, that
was Easton. Why didn't any but he quote Easton? Why didn't it say Easton hopes that Jana Kramer's boyfriend has a micropenas.
I would love that headline. I didn't realize that made for us, and I apologize. I don't want to when I said it, I realized that couldn't come off as like body shaving and stuff, and I felt I did feel bad if you have a micro penis out there, I'm sure it's beautiful and there's someone out there that loves it, and all bodies are beautiful.
I was just looking for uh.
I was just looking for something about this man that might explain other qualities about him, that's all.
It was just so funny though, because I'm like, I didn't try to bring that up, but I'm like, but then when you did, I'm like, well, it was kind of funny because I did tell my girlfriend's like, there's got to be something wrong, right, So but the fact I'm like that that's what they picked like picked up. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm like, not you know that. I'm happy and.
Headline but.
Wow, I'm seeing that. Sorry, I'm seeing the headlines. There's multiple news outlets.
Thanks, thank you for that. I really appreciate you.
I just like that.
It Page six says Jana Kramer once believed boyfriend had a small phone.
Leaeve like, what is that?
I know?
I was like, I didn't once believe, Like that's that's it's a way out of context. Yeah, I was like, not at all. I would never say that, Like, you know, we joked about it, but like, how do you put that? How do you put once believed doesn't? Well, Catherine, you would know what what.
I was like.
Wait a minute, Oh yeah.
Never go on, I need some contacts here else is gonna be wear headlines? No I'm not, Wow, I didn't.
Jana Kramer's podcast co hosts has a sexual history with current boyfriends.
Negative, not at all, not true. No, this story is going.
Let's just say I have access to a lot of Janna's stuff.
Okay, that would make sense, and things.
Just kind of bump up, you know sometimes.
As they do, and I'm.
You know, was traumatize.
But it's fine.
Who hasn't swiped too far in the camera? I mean we've all been there.
It was me going through the camera role. Oh no, would have been way more prepared.
The best part about this is like it happened right before a podcast episode, so we were like about to film and you know, a picture came up or something when she because she was on my computer. I mean it's my my computer, right, and she all of a sudden I hear, Oh.
My god, was it an incoming text.
Yeah, and here's the problem. It's like, don't react, don't read.
But how do you not react to that?
Like you know, in my head in those two seconds before I react, it's like, don't react. I could not.
I love this man's style because like I want to pull the curtain back of it. We record this podcast like in the morning. I know, I know you guys are in different time zone, but it's still like before noon a lot of the time. Want some lunch a dana here you go.
Oh wow.
And so because we were just being like flirtsy qtsy secon see or whatever. And yeah, and then she he didn't know that Catherine was on my computer which has my messages on there. Does he know now that I saw he does. I told him that's uncomfortable. It's fine, so young love, right, So so yeah, we I mean we were dying. She goes, She was like, oh what she goes? That that that that she goes. I can't see it. I can't see it. I can't see.
The thing is is I had forgotten about it. I think I blocked it out of my mind, but now you're bringing.
It all back.
But also I think it was before it was at our friends Queendom right podcast.
Yeah, because I think everybody else is here. Oh that's right. It was ripe. It was it was ripe. So so that wasn't in the morning.
That was morning.
That was like, yeah, okay, it was it was our girls queen then that's right. And we did it at like eight thirty because I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.
I don't know, I was traumatized. It's fine.
That is so funny. I mean, I guess you can answer the question, though, was a bigger I'm just kidding.
I don't dwell on this too much. But what angle did he choose?
That's oh my god, I don't remember.
I do.
That's the best shoot I do. Wow. Have you ever seen a Dick pic Easton?
Yes?
Okay, so that's a common thing because I got to be honest with you, like, you know, shoot, I've been in the day. You know, I was married for seven something almost years. I don't I never got Dick pics, so you know, so it's like, I don't know. Dick pick was like the still thing.
So I was actually wants them, No one wants them, I don't think.
I mean, I don't know, I don't know I've done it with like girlfriends, you know, but like even then, I felt weird about it because it's not a good looking part of the body.
I don't think, Dick, I disagree.
Okay, okay, you don't like I mean, you're a man. I think girls like.
I don't know.
Whatever you like. You know, it's okay to like whatever whatever you're into.
Yeah, yes, I don't know. I just I think that it's a That's why I asked about the angle, because it's a hard thing to photograph too, you know, as.
Someone say, it was nice, Okay, I see, I didn't like the angle.
Oh I love the angle.
I loved the angle. This is hilarious.
This is like, are.
Sorry to my husband? Great, we're friends because.
I totally didn't tell them that he doesn't It's fine.
I just you know, I wanted to bring a little comedy because I knew you just got done with therapy and I didn't know what I was walking into.
Thinks that was what your therapist needed, was needed.
Okay, was a hard one. Oh yeah, that was good though.
God I love her. I can't I leave and I just cried because I love her so much.
I know.
Yeah, no, this is tough. Cards on the ground.
Oh the cards.
Oh shoot, I usually.
Wait ten sessions till I get to this, and we're not at ten, but we're gonna go for it.
What are the cards?
It's like you put their like emotions, basically, and you put in one pile, ones that you're feeling right now, ones that you want to feel in the future, and the ones that don't apply. Let's just say mine work all over the place. They were all over the place.
But that's good. I still have a photo of mine. Actually I'm gonna I'll pull it up because I'm curious to see which, like where if we were, ours are the same, but like I remember, mine is like a lot of mine was like it was when I was still married, Like I felt scared and sad and closed off and broken and like those were like all of my cards, and it's like where I want to go. And she was kind of like okay, like and how
do you get to that? And I'm like, I'm not, don't stay in my marriage, you know, or you know, and she's just like and you know, she's not trying to lead me in that direction at all. But then she's like, okay, well, you know, or whatever else can we do or it's like it's just hard realizing that when you're like, oh, shoot, these are these are the
cards I lay down. Yeah, Like it's just like this, like it kind of sucks to see, but it's also I feel like very healing to see too, to like notice where you're at.
Yeah, I didn't have a clear answer for how do you get there? That's the hard part. You're so clear.
I mean I wasn't because I stayed another year.
But you kind of were clear with what the answer was.
I feel like, well, things had to change or I had to leave and things didn't change, so I had to you know. Yeah, but we're going to take a break and then we're going to get we're going to ge continue on the conversation we had from last week with doctor Ramani. Hi, doctor Ramani, how are you? I'm good? Thank you? How are you?
I'm fine? Thank you. It's nice to see you meet both of you.
Oh, it's such a pleasure to have you on. We talk a lot about what you're an expert in, and it's just it's absolute honored to have you on the show because you are an expert in this field and I'm just curious, how how did you become an expert in narcissism? Was it a relationship you had or experience?
Slow? And it was a slow brin. Actually I was as a professor. I was an academic and doing research on really difficult patients that would come into clinics and make the nursing and reception staff miserable. And at the same time, I also to private practice, and I was seeing patients coming in and talking about the same marriage over and over again. Minute dawned on me nobody's teaching his clients about narcissism, and they're blaming themselves for this
other person's abusive behavior. And I thought, oh, this is actually if I just educate them on this, maybe this will set a lot of them free. And it did. I myself have family members who are horribly narcissistic. I've been in relationships, I've been in work settings, but I got to be honest with you, it was other people's experiences that pushed me in this area. And I've been doing this work god since the mid or like two
thousand and six. And when I first started doing it, nobody was talking about this, and people are like, girl, you're working on something nobody cares about so I care about it, So I don't I don't need I don't need anyone else to care about. It seems to be helping the people I'm working with. And then and then over the next ten years, more people got more interested in it, so it was sort of something I was doing quite quietly for a very long time.
Well, it is interesting too, because I feel like, even just from the stuff that I share on my social media or what we share on the podcast, like so many people are like, oh wow, Like I had no idea that like this is a part of narsism or narcissm or oh my gosh, my husband does this or And then I started to feel like a little bad because I'm like, well, I don't want to ruin people's stuff, but at the same time I want it's nice for I think for me at least too, to get awareness
and for other people to get awareness of things like I in my relationship, I was like, I felt crazy and I felt, you know, like, well, why does he hate me so much? And all these things? But I'm like, okay, wait, that's not actually the reality, and I don't know. So it's nice to get information.
Yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people struggle with this, are like, oh, I don't want to use this word. It feels so clitical, it feels so judgy, And it's so interesting how much effort we put into protecting abusers. It's really fascinating, like how can we make this abusive person look good? I can't get behind that anymore, you know, And if people don't like the words, come
up with words you feel more comfortable with. But at the end of the day, somebody who's doubting your reality and validating you, leaving you constantly off balance and then having their tantrums so then they feel better, but you're left holding the bag. It's not okay. It's just simply not okay.
Yeah, I mean, I know I can say I mean the amount of times I'm like, oh, hey, can we take that out because I don't want Mike to get mad at me if I say this, or hey can we take but it's like why am I so afraid of his reaction? But it's the that reaction is like but wait, no, don't hate me, Like I'm not the one that, like, you know, like I didn't do that, Like you're the one that ruined the marriage and all
these things, but like, why do you hate me? But yet I can't speak my truth because you want me to shut up and stop talking about it. And that's the past.
So I think you bring up to such an important point here, which is so many people in narcissistic relationships feel like the bad one, that I'm the bad one, that I'm saying these bad things. So so many people become very isolated with their truth.
Right.
They might have maybe one or two really close friends and if they're lucky, a therapist that gets it. But then to the world, they feel like, do I need to keep faking it? Do I need to keep having people thinking that this is okay? And if I'm the one who's calling this stuff out, does this make me
the bad one? And remember, the narcissistic person's needs are often being met in the relationship all the time because the other person's running in circles, so they're not the bad one, right, So it really traps a person in an interesting corner. And I think that it's funny you put it that way. Is that you said I don't I didn't. I was afraid of his reaction, you know, I didn't want to say things I was afraid of
his reaction. And for you, Jenna, it's also about going back and thinking when in your life were you also afraid of other people's reactions? Like where does that come from? Because for some folks it's like you said, I don't want to be the bad one, But for other folks it's I'm just afraid of anger and rage. Like they may have grown up in a home that was characterized by anger or rage, so those kinds of reactions are
terrifying for them. So they keep giving in and giving in and giving in to the narcissistic person so they don't have to tolerate something that is so unsettling for them.
Hm.
That's so true. That a good question.
So yeah, I mean, what do you do or what would you say for someone that is co parenting with someone that you know? Yeah, like how do you how would you recommend stepping into those waters? Because I I My whole thing is I and I know this and why I talked to it last week, As I said, I engage because I'm thinking that I'm going to get empathy.
From the past, right and you're not so right there? So that right there, you just gave the core of what the key element of how to co parent is, which is radical acceptance and realistic expectations. The empathy wasn't there in the marriage, Why is it all of a sudden going to start showing up now. Some people believe, well, it's their kids, so that's going to bring out empathy. Not so much. I mean, ultimately, the narcissistic person's very self serving, and the children are end up being sort
of accessories in that life, and so and so. It's a it's a realistic expectation that none of these patterns are going to change. And what I often tell people who are co parenting with a narcissist and they're no longer in the relationship anymore, I tell them, you're doing the equivalent of single parents with an elephant on your back, because you still have to negotiate this territory with the narcissism.
The challenge people have whe their co parenting with a narcissist is they can't believe that this person keeps breaking the rules. And I say, the realistic expectation is they're always going to break the rule. I tell that folks were single who are co parenting with a narcissist. You are the sole bringer of routine, of order of empathy. You've got to be two parents because the other parent is either a Disneyland parent or if they kind of show up and are on point when they want to be,
but not at other times. So you're the place where you bring consistency, you bring safety, you bring the things that a child needs, and where a lot of people get stuck. And so they're like, this is so not fair, okay, and life's not fair, you know. So what is fair is recognizing we know this. We know this from the research. All a kid needs is one really good parent that's on point. One really good parent can save a child. So a lot of people say, my kids are going
to be ruined. I tell every parent who's co parenting with a narcissist, the biggest risk people have when they have a narcissistic parent, even if it's only one, is that their child is going to struggle with anxiety because it's so unpredictable. You don't know if your parent is on point, like you just don't know how to please them. It's a lot of hoop jumping. You might even see
your other your co parent, your other parents struggling. So I'd say the majority of survivors of childhood narcissistic parents end up as anxious adults, and we can sort of step them back from that. The bigger concerns are the kids who end up going off the rails in different ways, like, for example, they become narcissistic themselves, or they turn to other ways to cope. They rebel in a really hard way. Drugs, alcohol, you know, acting out, sex, rock, you know, drugs, rock
and roll kind of thing. But by and large people become anxious from this. So I tell folks who are co parenting, choose your battles wisely. Some people are say this is what the parenting agreements say, and they get into that fight. I say, listen, let's say give you an example. A lot of narcissistic folks during divorces will fight tooth and nail for custody the way they want things, the qualidays that want. They'll fight, fight, fight, and you break your heart and you relent on some of it.
Then the time comes when they're actually supposed to take the kids, maybe six to nine months out, the fight is no longer there, and they're like, well, I can't do this weekend and I can't do this school thing and mean what I tell the healthier co parent, I say, grab up those dates, like nobody's business. Every day with your kids is a good day. They just wanted to show you they wanted to beat you down. I'm not convinced that who ever wanted to be with the kids.
So when you can get those kids, don't say but you said, just document, document that on seven days of a month they said they were going to be with them, they went out of town and they did this. Because if you decide to update the parenting agreement and you're using an app and something like Talking Parents or something like that, using an app to document all of that, that can actually then be entered into a court record. So I tell people any day you can get your kids,
good day, And I understand it might be inconvenient. Another thing to remember, if you're co parenting with a narcissist plan on them dropping the ball, always have your plan B and your reinforcements in place, so when they can't show up and they won't do this, you're just seamlessly like okay, no worries, got it. And people say, well, I feel like I'm being taken advantage of. I tell folks, this would have been a lot easier if you got one hundred percent of custody, so in a way, you
would have been already doing these workarounds. It's not about fair, it's not about their getting away with something. It's about your kids. And that's what I always tell people when it comes to co parenting.
Yeah, and I also feel like, too, that's really good advice. Where I was having a tough time because I, you know, obviously I didn't want to be divorced. I don't want to be co parenting. But when I do have my kids now, it's like my main focus is giving them memories because they're not going to remember that they were with mom seventy percent of the time and dad thirty. Like they're gonna remember the memories we make, the times
we spend together, what we do. They're not going to remember like, oh oh well, I mean they'll probably know with my situationsin seventy thirty like yes we were at moms more, but still like they're not going to know the exact you know, when they're the kids. So I'm like, just make the memories and focus on that, and then yeah,
I mean to your point. He asked me if I you know I wanted them over his holiday break, and I was like, one thousand percent absolutely, because I'm just I like, I want that time with my babies as much as possible. So yeah, I love that. I do have a question though, on okay, because there's a lot of characteristics of narcissism. So how many do you have
to have to actually be a narcissist? Because I feel like a lot of times you can look at it and go, well, like, I mean, I kind of like do maybe one of those?
So what we want to remember is that when we think about narcissism, think of it as like sort of the core elements of it, and those are things like lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogance, grandiosity, being very sensitive and reactively sensitive when somebody gives critics or feedback, being really egocentric, being really superficial, constantly seeking validation. That's the core. Okay. Now, some people say, well, I like praise. Does that make
me narcissistic? No, that makes you a human being, right, Or a person might say, I don't know, I love clothes, I love fashion. Is that superficial?
No?
Not if you're empathic alongside that, you see what I'm saying. So I think people kind of get lost in sort of the armchair kind of theatrical version of narcissism, and they forget that it's really a constant, pervasive presence. This is not somebody who is usually a nice person and then on a day when they're tired or a lot's going wrong, they snap a little bit and then they quickly apologize like I had no right to do that. This is not one bad day. This is about years,
lifetimes of bad days interspersed with good ones. That's how they trick us, right. They're charming, they're charismatic, they're confident, they're curious about us. They seem super fun until they don't, and then the bad days get mixed in with the good days. But the problem is the bad days are brutal. They're abusive, and they're invalidating, and they're manipulative and they're
gas lighting. They're terrible bad days. It's not just somebody who's just I don't know, leaving towels on the floor. So I don't you know. One thing I tell people is there's no such thing as healthy narcissism. Narcissism, by definition, is an unhealthy pattern. I think that it's on a continuum. There's milder levels of narcissism, where some people are more almost emotionally stunted, really immature, really vapid, really ridiculous, really
validation seeking. Their empathy is spotty, like if they're having a good day, they think everyone's having a good day, so stunted, they're like forever adolescent. That's at the milder level, but as we keep going into the more severe levels, it's really really bad for us. But even those milder levels, I don't see how a person could make a relationship of any depth go with a person like that for
any long period of time. As soon as the going gets tough, those people have no interest in real life. They just want to again forever be childish and immature, and so they're not really they're not great for marriage and children and growing old together. They're not made for that.
So on the other side of that, I just think, you know, it's such a thing now, Like you said, people weren't really talking about it much ten years ago. Now we're all starting to talk about it. So if people are recognizing this and themselves and they are owning that and they're gonna, you know, want to try and get better. Do you just recommend therapy for them? Or like, how do you get out of this narcissistic behavior.
So it's a good question. In the majority, and in the vast majority of cases, this doesn't change there really doesn't. It is the ones who change are the unicorns. I think I've seen significant change in a narcissist twice in my career. And I've been doing this for twenty five years, Okay, in my own life, like personal life, not people I treat, I've seen significant change.
Twice.
I mean, and I'm fifty six, right, so I mean I'm telling you, like, these are these are not short periods of time that you know, so it doesn't happen. And I'll tell you what, it's very, very hard to find a therapist that can work with a narcissistic client. These are the you know, these are the jedis of therapy. Like, it's very very I've worked with many narcissistic clients, some of them ten years or longer. I think I'm a good therapist. I've done amazing work with many clients with
the narcissistic clients. I'm not kidding you. I think we've moved the needle like a millimeter and we've done good work. And it's just the problem is this, When a narcissistic person faces frustration, stress, disappointment, anything that sort of pops their little bubble boom game on, they lose it and so and they take it out on the people around them until they can manage that, they get out of their heads that everything always has to be perfect for
them all the time, they're going to keep having these meltdowns. So, yes, I I think therapy is absolutely critical. And I would say for somebody who says I don't like this pattern in me, I am aware I'm blowing people's lives up. I am aware that I'm acting like a jerk. I am aware that I'm not a nice person. Great, Okay,
I think it takes a lot of courage to do that. Yes, therapy, but above and beyond therapy, every day, every hour, every fifty every minute of every day, that narcissistic person has to be self aware of how their words, their actions, their everything affects other people and think before they speak, find ways to cope with their disappointment, recognize other people have needs. I have to tell you, I've worked with some narcissistic clients, and I remember a couple in particular
who said they really did. They gave it the old college. Try this, say I can't be bothered. This is exhausting. And you know what they said, I'm gonna break up my marriage. I'm gonna end of my marriage. And they this person have one person, particularly, he had a woman on the side. He's like, I'm ending my marriage, I'm ending my relationship with this woman, I'm having an affair
with I'm moving out, moving into an apartment. I have lots of friends I don't you know, and they're fine with me being an ass and so and then that's it, and they this person recognized I don't have what it takes and I don't want to hurt people. This person acknowledged I don't want to hurt people. But I can't be in a relationship because I don't have patience. I don't care about another person's feelings other than at this the most superficial level. And then he found someone he's like,
but I like sex. He found somebody paid once a month or maybe twice a month, come over, hang out, leave it to in the morning, and he's like, that's really all I really wanted. And it was an incredible revelation because this was somebody saying, this is too much work. It's almost like trying to lose weight. We know what we need to do, change what we eat, exercise. Most people like, oh, heck no, I got to eat me my cheese cake. I got I'm not giving off this
other stuff. And it's a very similar model for people who are narcissistic. A lot of them don't, you know, even if they want to do the work, it is a life, life, daily, daily commitment to that. I think many narcissistic people they'll have no insights. But the ones who do have insight if you did the work every day and paid attention and recognize it's not okay to rage at other people when you don't get your way, and you have to have empathy and yes, you have
to wait in line like the rest of us. I mean, like I said, I've seen it happen maybe four times in my life. And they worked hard. They worked hard.
What if the narcissist says they only act this way towards you because you're like because they hate you so much, Like they only act this anger like I'm not like that. I'm not that person anymore. I only do this because because of you, and you bring this out in me.
It's not true. I mean, it's completely not true. This is a pervasive pattern. What we see with a lot of narcissistic folks, though, is they can really be brutal in their most high stakes relationship, like an intimate relationship or family relationship or something like that, but all of their other relationships are so superficial and are giving them narcissistic supply. You're such a great guy, you're so cool. There's a lot of that, you know, but there's no
depth there. These people are almost either as superficial as a narcissist, or they're enablers, or they're benefiting in some way financially or something. There's some benefit to them for staying in the friendship. So all of their other relationships are so superficial or with enablers. So it is quite conceivable that just a very small group of people are getting the worst of it because the other people aren't going deep with them. But this idea that you're the
only person I treat this way. They treat everybody badly. I imagine this is a person who would treat store clerks badly or a person on an airplane badly. They're just rude when things don't go the way they want. It's just that that high impact person, the intimate partner, usually gets the worst of it.
Yeah, So when you know, obviously you've got amazing books out, So the one that should you stay or should you go? I mean, what is your number one thing that you tell couples or people in relationships when dealing with this, like when because a lot of times you're like when is enough enough? And I'm like, for me, it was like, you know, I had my final s jobs, you know, six seven years later. But I mean it took it
took a while. But I think it's it's hard because they make you feel so crazy that even to this day, even co parenting, I'm like, am I the you know, he's like calling yourself an EmPATH is comical, and I'm like, but I do have empathy, and I I I'm like, you call you're calling me a narcissist, Like you're a narcissist.
And it's like this back and forth, like I'm like, how like it's like, and I'm like, well, I don't know, maybe I am like I like I Then I start to like question it and I'm like, am I crazy?
Well that what you just described is gaslighting? Right, So every everybody and in addition to the word narcissism, everybody's using the word gas lighting it most people are using it wrong. Gaslighting is not a one off, it's a process, right, and a gas lighter you kind of have to have some trust or some skin in the game with them, right. You want in essence, you you believe in that person for some reason, you love them, or they're your boss or your family member, like you want to believe them.
So over time, what the gas lighter does is they doubt your reality. I never said that, that never happened. You're being too sensitive. You have no right to feel that way. And you're like, okay, so now your reality is like don't I have a right to feel that way? Or did that really happen?
Well, we're divorce that my feelings don't matter. You feels don't matter are an issue anymore?
Yeah, my feelings don't matter. Okay, So reality is being doubted. But then they double down at that point, and then they say, wow, you're so sensitive, like have you been seen by a psychiatrist because there's something really wrong with you, or you're not remembering stuff like I'm wondering are you drinking? Like is something wrong with you? Like they'll literally try to paint a picture of that person whose reality they've always already doubted as being crazy or as being something's
wrong with them medically, psychiatrically, you name it. So now this person might actually start buying the hype. Maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I'm the one who's being unreasonable. Maybe I am too sensitive. I do need to get therapy. And now this person it's almost like how you bring someone into a cult. You make them so reliant on
you for reality that they're stuck. And so that process of gas slighting is why people get stuck in these relationships for so long, because the narcissist in some ways is the holder of the reality. If somebody gets into therapy with someone good, that good therapist is say, girl, you're being gaslight and then a personally was that? And then you walk them through it and you have them
keep journals and bring it. I've had so many clients have recorded conversations and play it in session, and I'm like gaslight, minimization, abuse and validation, Like we just break it down and they'll think, they say, thank you so much. Now I can make some choices. Keep in mind the whole the concept behind should I say or should I go? When I wrote that book was it's very simplistic to
tell everyone going through narcissistic abuse leave. Obviously that's the best path, because the less time you spend with the narcissist the better. It's like something toxic. If you're not near the toxic thing, like secondhand smoke, you won't feel sick. Right, the closer you are to it, the sicker it makes you. But that's not an option open to everybody. Because of custody, because of money, because of culture, religion, whatever a person's reasons are. I have no right to sit there and
say you gotta go. I do understand a lot of people feel stuck or they still aren't ready to go, So I give them both. I tell them this is what these two pathsways, and these two options look like what you say. Six or seven years before I figured out what was going on and wanted to get out that's not odd. I'm to tell you now, I think I've worked with folks who've been in narcissistic marriages for sixty years. So it literally can take and they leave
when they're eighty. Believe it or not too like it's not. I mean, there's a point at which more and where people get the knowledge and recognize this is never going to change, because that's the baseline. It's really not going to change. And even if there's a little bit of change, the person hurt by the narcissists has been hurt in such a permanent way. They might say, good for you, you want to go, change, go, but you've damaged me too much. I can't do this anymore. And so the idea, though,
is what the narcissistic person tries to do. It's all about dominance. It's all about power and control, and it's all about harming the other person in a way that it makes it harder to leave, and even when the relationship is done, to sort of keep them down. And that's and so it's I really tell people, fifty percent of people stay and fifty percent of people go, and there's no shame in either of those. And a lot
of people go and then they come back. And that's also normal too, because there's so much hope that people have. It's going to change, it's going to change. I'm telling you here to tell you it's not going to change. So you know that's the fact is, if you go it's not going to change. I can give you that guarantee. If you go back, I can also promise you it's not going to get better.
So starting a new relationship, then what are some of the signs that you know? I mean, obviously right now everything is amazing with new my new man, but like, what is something I mean, I kind of with my history. I'm very sensitive to things. But is there anything that I should be aware of or a sign or anything that you say to people that start new relationships.
I always tell people when they start new relationships after having been through a toxic one, you've got to understand what a healthy relationship is. I'm always struck by how many people don't even know what the definition of a healthy relationship is. And it's kindness, compassion, respect, what we call mutuality of regard. Like you both, there's a back and a forth and awareness of what's important to the
other person. There's something we call reciprocity. There's given, take, there's compromise, and there is a growth orientation that both each person in the relationship wants the other person to grow. In other words, in a narcissistic relationship, the person doesn't want the other person to grow, doesn't want them to succeed because it'll make them look bad or they are
In all narcissistic people have abandonment fears. They always think the other person's going to go because they're so insecure. That's the true core of narcissism, insecurity and feelings of inadequacy. Right. So it's kind of sad when you think about it, but I don't care how sad it is. Abuse is abuse. So in a new relationship, I tell people you got to look for those fundamentals, and if those fundamentals aren't there, you got to get out of dodge. But then it's
almost the behavioral stuff. It's things like how does a person receive feedback? If a person gets it's really touchy and defensive and icky when you give them feedback, it's a really really bad sign because you may not like what someone's saying and they might give you feedback. That's
uncomfortable in a new relationship. But if that person says, oh, this is so hard for me to hear, but I need to hear it or can hear, or say give me a minute instead of raging or saying yeah, you say that about me, well, let me tell you this about you. That's the kind of thing we're looking for. I'd say that shows up pretty early in a more toxic relationship. We look at how a person treats other people. How do they treat people who do have less power
around them? That might be people who work in service occupations, who might work in a household. How are those people treated, How are they talked about? If there's any dismissive kinds of conversation there. I would tell people to get out.
How much validation and admiration do they need they does it feel like they always have to have every you know, it's almost of the flip side of that, like when they go in everywhere, they need to be every you know, Bartender's best friend and everyone has to like them, and it's all about how they look to the world. You know, like approval, but that approval those different than admiration, Jenna.
You know, approval is that's something for you to work on in your own therapeutic Yeah, because in some ways that's a that's sort of a monkey in our back, but that's very different. That's almost like an inner child's piece of view that wants to be approved, but admirations like look how great I am? You know, and it's very different. So something else you'd want to look for. I'd also look at how whether someone can be present. Are they always looking at their phone or their watch
or out the window. It always seems that they're looking out the door to see if someone better is going to sort of metaphorically walk in. Are they able to be present even in moments you might consider boring or tedious. That's another thing to pay attention to. Those are the signs I tell people, And if something doesn't feel good, I also tell people what's the pace of the relationship.
Narcissistic people like fast relationships because what it means is that red flags get ignored the faster they move and the quicker they kind of get it sealed the deal. Now a person's in something pretty deep and they're like, this isn't so good, but now I've agreed to I don't live with someone or marry someone, or I'm pregnant
or whatever. Those things can actually get people stuck, and narcissistic people, as a rule tend to want to go fast because it's just sort of, like I said, for them, it sort of gets around the insecurity for them because they feel that the other person's less likely to leave.
Got it, well, doctor Imani, thank you so much for coming on, and I think hopefully, I mean, I know it helped me a lot, and hopefully everyone that's listening it helped as well. And then we're gonna put your books up here on the site. Don't you know who I am? And should I stay or should I go on Amazon get them? I'm ordering them right now. So thank you so much for coming on, and hopefully I'll
talk to you soon, but hopefully not. You know, like I kind of want to like stop talking about this now, so but I appreciate you.
Thank you so much. Thank you for the time, and I thank you, and I hope your listeners benefit as you did as well, and let people know that after narcissistic abuse, I've seen actually incredible love stories and life stories, So there is life after this.
I love that. Thank you, Hank, Thank you it's so funny that one of those I'm like, oh wait, I'm like, well, I mean I like to move fast sometimes. I was like, but I mean it's different this time around.
Yeah, And I think that that's just you can have insecurities but not be narcissistic.
Very interesting some of that. I mean, so it's good she's she's very good. You can tell she's like.
A yeah, I found it very interesting though, Like I don't you know, I can't really think of necessarily narcissistic people in my life, but it seems so like kind of hopeless if you see that in yourself, you know what I mean.
Yeah, but I guess like so many, like more people wouldn't see them.
They just wouldn't see it.
Yeah, like my ex will never Let's just say he's one.
That just like kind of made me sad because it's like, well, what's the hope for people to see this as themselves? And it's kind of like, oh, they just don't change.
Right, And that's why on this side, I'm like, maybe I'm crazy, maybe he's not, and I'm.
But then at the other side is yeah, hopefully you see that as rightful. Yes, that she's seen two people right, change.
Right in all her years. Yeah, I know, that's that was that was eye opening for sure.