Wind Down with Jana Kramer and Michael Cosson and I Heart Radio and People's Choice Award nominated podcast.
Okay, so I'm really excited because we have Katherine Oxenberg in studio. An Okay, Catherine, I it's you have a fascinating story. How before I jump into it? Do you know Sarah Edmondson?
I do?
Yeah, Okay, So we did a movie together about Gosh. It was a year and a half ago, No, two years ago. It's two years ago, and it's it's so weird now thinking back to our conversation because I I remember her saying some kind of weird, weird, weird things, but it was it was off. And then all of a sudden, I saw her on Dateline and I was like, oh my god. I did a Hallmark movie with her,
a Christmas movie. Yeah, And so I instagrammed her and I was just like, hey, because I know that she you know, she talked all about being in this Nexium cult and she has you know, the book, her book that just came out, and so I just didn't know how big or small that world was. And if you knew of her, or you know, if because your daughter was the one that was in the Nexium Cults. Correct, that is correct.
Yeah, I definitely met Sarah through Nexium when it was called Executive Success Program, which was the consumer facing company that she was a coach for. And so yeah, in the beginning, she was a big recruiter and I didn't really have anything to do with the organization. I stopped taking classes probably in twenty thirteen, but my daughter stated
and she remained a coach and became very involved. And Sarah was quite high up and as far as owning a center in Vancouver and being responsible for bringing in I don't know, maybe thousands of people, but well, and that's.
Kind of what I was like. I felt like she was trying to bring me into something. So I remember being like it was just very strange, and I was like, no, I'm not really like I'm good, you know. But then I was just like, oh my gosh, it's all connected. Wow.
Yeah, she's very charismatic. She's a really so sweet, a durable person, and I can see why she was a great recruiter, and I can see why she's a great whistleblower too. She is the same passion and she's the one who when I first was told about what was really going on, which would have been April twenty seventeen, and that my daughter had probably been branded. I met with Sarah and she showed me her brand and on her butt right, No, it's not on her butt, it's like on.
Her pelvic area.
Pelvic area that's.
In the front and hers today is the only brand that I've actually seen. But she and I were in the first New York Times article that broke the story originally and got the attention of the government. And then I went ballistic on a war path with from one media outlet to the other until.
Okay, so let's just start over then. So okay, well, now that we get let's start from the beginning. So you, you and your daughter went to this class. I'll let you kind of started off. How did it start?
Innocently? It was a self help leadership program. My daughter was about started business. Sarah Edmondson was one of the coaches in that first class.
I'd done a lot of self help.
It didn't seem particularly original. My daughter loved it from the beginning. I think what hooked me a little bit was they did these emotional processes that to unhook reactivity or what they considered you know any limitations that you have, and what's actually happening is they're unhooking your gut and they're just starting to dismantle your personality. But it feels good, and a lot of these large group awareness trainings use
very similar techniques. I think that probably Keith Ranieri, although he says his material was proprietary and you'd sign an NDA, I think most of it was plagiarized from other of these well known trainings, whether it be ste or Landmark or Scientology. I think that he stole a lot of stuff. So not you know, but my daughter got very involved and there was a huge emphasis on recruitment and they were making a lot of money off people.
At one point, Catherine, did you kind of read between the lines and realize this isn't exactly what we signed up for and get yourself out? And then like, why was there such a discrepancy in time between when you got yourself out and then getting your daughter India out.
You know, it's an interesting thing that you say getting myself out. I never really considered myself in because I just took classes and there was a huge difference between somebody who was taking the occasional class versus somebody who signed up for the Coach Path, which Sarah was a coach, and those people were taking this program seriously, and they are the ones that they considered to be really dedicated
to improving humanity. Like there was a big emphas on the Doctrine and on Keith Ranieriy, who they called the Vanguard. So I never really got in. I just took classes and then I'm like, you know what, this is weird. But the reason I wrote a book, which came out actually last year, was because those warning signs. If I'd recognized that they were dangerous versus just thinking, okay, so these are quirky people, I would have run away. I would have never exposed my daughter to anything as dangerous
as this. It's just that I was naive. I didn't really understand how these groups work, and I didn't understand the process of indoctrination and how easy it is to kind of hijack somebody's mind without.
You being aware.
So was India branded?
India was branded here.
I did an intervention with her, which was May twenty seventeen, and I point blank asked her if she'd been branded, and she didn't lie, which was strange. Because everyone within the organization is taught to lie to everybody on the outside.
So why would you think that she was getting like, what were the things that you saw that were that was off?
Okay?
So in the beginning, she became a little more distant, she became a little bit more serious, She felt more burdened to me, but it could have been you know, Okay. So one of the heads of the organization, Nancy Salzman, who was higher than Sarah, told me, well, India's individuating, and.
So I could I could I could buy that.
No, she was a young woman and she was separating from me and her family, and she was trying to find her own way. So a lot of the symptoms that are like, wow, doesn't feel like my daughter anymore, doesn't have that kind of brightness and that joyful spirit. I didn't know that these were symptoms of her actually having her personality dismantled and taking on a cult persona.
And that's what happened.
She slowly but surely started to change, and it was so slow, it's such a slow drip that it wasn't until it was too late that I realized that they'd taken her.
And that s what do you mean if I've taken her, what does that consist of?
Well again, steps, first becoming a coach and so isolating her, creating a new family, separating her from her loved ones, insisting she break up with her boyfriend, then involving her twenty four to seven in the organization, recruiting people, making it her life, then moving her to Albany, New York, which was the epicenter of the group.
So slowly but surely the years go by.
She's living in Albany, She's given up all her possessions in LA, she's given up all her friends, and she's leading this new life in service with Keith R.
Nieri.
And suddenly she's Alison max Slave And you go, what the hell happened? And it wasn't until Like, I'm a parent of several kids, and really part of the way that I parent is that I try and let my kids make their own mistakes. I try not to interfere, try not to be a helicopter parent, but it you know, giving really adhering to giving them the dignity of their
own process of adulting. But when I found out that she was actually in physical dangers, the moment that I like, my maternal instincts just went haywire, and I did everything that I could to get her out.
What danger did you see and what danger.
Did you know that she was in a DEFECTA called me up mid April twenty seventeen and said you have to save her, and I'm like, uh.
Okay, from what?
And she said, well, she's involved in the secretive slave Master group that's supposed to be a female leadership program within Nexium, but actually it's a recruiting funnel for sex for Keith. It's based on a slave master hierarchy, and Alison Mack is her master, and she's being forced to recruit slaves. She's probably branded, she's on a five hundred
calorie a day diet, she's sleep depride. She signed a lifetime bow of obedience to Keith and to the organization, like she just she read off this list of things, and I'm like, how does self help turned into sex trafficking? How does that even happen? And so the first thing that I did was I went to see a specialist. I organized in an intervention. I brought her back to La pretending it was a birthday. I felt horrible. I'd never been duplicitous with my daughter. I mean we have,
we had such a great relationship. Found out for my daughter. At the same time, her hair was falling out. She had a period in a year. So I'm getting messages from her that she's having physiological problems. I can't tell her that I know why because I don't want to kind of I don't want to expose my plan to bring her back because I was afraid she wouldn't come back.
And then I fail at the intervention, and I see that she's recruiting other young women and I'm able to stop them going back to Albany from being branded.
Thank god.
So you stopped her like she she saw it, saw like she in the intervention. She she saw what was happening.
No, it quite the opposite. She thought I was crazy and overreacting, and that she was doing something good and noble, and that branding was character building.
She was completely brainwashed.
At what point after the intervention, like, how long after that were you finally able to get through to her?
Okay, a year and two months.
Wow, So she just left and you didn't talk to her.
They took her back and they started to well, first of all, the hierarchy started to try and use her to find ways to sue me and compromise me and
silence me. They told her that I was suffering from Munchausen by proxy disease, that I was a psychopath, that everything I was doing was trying So they brainwashed her specifically against me, so that I was enemy number one, which made it very, very hard because then everything that I did when I had to go and expose her publicly just deepened the rift and made.
It harder for her to reconcile with me.
Does she still have that negative energy towards you? Or she is she? You know?
She opa?
Hey, now are you guys okay?
We're more than okay. And I think one of the first things.
That she said to me that I knew meant that she was healing after thinking that I was like public enemy number one was she told her best friend, my mom was willing to have everybody hate her. And I knew when she said that that she understood that I was willing to go to any lengths to get her back, and that was the depth of my love.
Absolutely, let's take a break.
When we come back, Kathrin Oxenberger is going to talk about signs parents should look for in their kids. Things she saw and things you should look for if you've got kids and are concerned your kids are going down a bad path.
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Do you have any any kind of I guess advice for any parents out there that have, you know, these young adult children that are kind of going off and having their new expert speriences. I don't know, something to watch out for that maybe looking back, you might have missed or you wish you would have done better. I don't know, you know, just anything for parents. You know, we're parents, are two young kids, but just something to look out for in those later years.
That's a great question.
I think if I had known that the prefrontal cortex of a young adult doesn't fully develop until they're twenty seven, so their ability to make decisions, their cognitive faculties actually aren't fully developed, I would probably be more mindful about what they got involved in and do more due diligence, and I would teach them about predatory tactics, whether it be an abusive relationship or a predatory group like this, and what to look for and what to avoid and
a lot of those warning signs are actually like there's a roadmap in my book that makes it very helpful to understand. Like if we but whether it's an R Kelly, you know how these predators operate in plain sight. Once you expose their playbook, which is pretty slim, then our kids are not going to fall prey in the same way. Be it beit a group or be it an individual, they kind of work the same way.
Absolutely, And going off of that, do you think you know? Because I feel like, as again we're parents of two young kids, you want everything to be like butterflies and rainbows, right, especially early on in your experience raising multiple children, what's that age that maybe you sit them down and have these discussions or look, there's bad people in this world. There are predators, there's people, and these are the consequences.
This stuff actually exists in this world. At what age would you consider having those discussions going back again with your kids?
Wow?
You know that is another great question, And I think that's personal choice because I think you start the minute that they interface with other people. I was molested at age four. I don't know, if it's a personal decision, like who your kids are going to be interacting with and what you tell them at what age and what
they can comprehend. So maybe in simple terms when they're younger, and then when they're able to think cognitively, which starts around the age of like ten to twelve, you can you know, it's a really hard conversation because you don't want them to be suspicious or cynical, and that's it's a very fine line. But the world is not a safe place and people don't have your best interest, and that's it's tough to break that to your kids.
Absolutely when you say this sex slaves and slavery, I mean it was it just sex trafficking and sex slavery? What other kind of what else did that entail?
Multiple like abuses against women and what it means to be a woman, And it was deeply embedded into the curriculum. The deeper you got in, the more misogyny was revealed, till you have women like Laurence Salzman tell Sarah Edmondson the only way a woman can build can build self worth is through humiliation. So I would say this was a very very dangerous organization because the level of self hatred that it was fostering, that women were able to
then hurt another woman. I mean, they were desensitized to the point that violence against women was encouraged.
That's very frightening.
Yeah, but it started not like that. So I'm just they just get in and they just totally brainwash you. Wow.
Well, you have to look at it from two standpoints. The epicenter of this cult, the Keith Ranieri, had a harm and he was rotating twenty women. This is not how they present themselves. This is not what I was told when I walked in the door to take a class, that really the leader is having sex with twenty women and that potentially anybody who walks through these doors is a recruit to become a sexual partner for him. You're not told that, but that's really what was going on.
This was all about.
It is about power control and his self gratification. Everything that was designed, the whole program was as a funneling system for him.
That's how sick it was.
And he's obviously in jail now.
He is definitely in jail without bail and awaiting sentencing.
Has he owned up to any of it or is he that psychopath that just thinks that what he did was fine.
You want to hear the thing that's so gross. I was sitting in court during closing arguments, and I know that he made his chief counsel say this to the jury. He was basically saying that the first witness, this woman Sylvie, who had accused him of rape, Basically he's like, well, Keith gave her her first orgasm. And I'm sitting there going, Okay, wait a minute, are you really trying to say that he's a good guy because.
Because he gave him gave her an Jesus.
So that's the level of self awareness that this to me, He's like he's a lost cause. And if he ever comes out of jail, I mean, he's a danger to society, this guy.
M hm. So you have your book came out last year.
Right, hardback came out last August, and then the paperback came out this July with a with an extended chapter about the trial and reconciling, reconciling with my.
Daughter, and it's called Captive, a mother's Crusade to save her daughter from a terrifying cult. It's available now, and you're actually going to be on the each or Hollywood Story.
Two yep, I think that's coming out this Saturday.
Has it been hard for you to be in the limelight in this way? Like, I'm sure it wasn't what you thought whatever happened, So why did you Why did you want to write the book? Why did you want to come out and do the you know the e story? And is it to raise awareness or is it? Is it a coping mechanism too?
Originally I wrote the book because I was afraid the government was going to drop the bull because people had brought evidence for decades and nothing had ever happened. So I thought, I what if my book is the only resource that collects all the information to expose Keithriniery and these crimes. That was ultimately my first reason for doing it, because he hadn't been arrested when I was writing my book, and as I'm writing, the story's unfolding, so it was
happening in real time. Then I wrote it for India. I wrote it for my daughter because I figured if she read it, she would wake up, and that didn't It helped her wake up. And then you know, after that, it's to help other family members who are going through or what I went through. I hope nobody goes through what I went through and to prevent it from happening.
And yes, to raise awareness because I think these these predators hide in plain sight, and the more you shine a light on their tactics, the easier it is, the safer we are.
Absolutely, And do you I know again just relating back to us having kids and our daughter, like she doesn't complete sentences as well as maybe some of her classmates, right, and so Jana and I put it on ourselves and like we feel guilt where we're like, are we not doing enough? Are we not doing something right? Where she's a little behind. Going through what you've been through with India, did you have to overcome those feelings of guilt? Did
you put a lot on yourself initially? Like throughout all this process.
My personality is immediately yes, I felt guilt that I had introduced her to this program, but I'm the way that I deal with that is that I'm I find actionable ways to counteract that. So I went full force into getting around. I felt responsible for getting around. I felt responsible forgetting her out, And it's about being accountable as a parent, Like you're not can't be blamed for everything.
But wherever you can help, you do.
How is India, you know, dealt with the healing process through all.
This, It's been intensive, I think for anybody. This is the thing that people don't understand. You can't leave a cult and move forward. You're still trapped, like it's in your head. So they've changed the way you think. You're still under the influence of the doctrine. So it takes a lot of work to unravel what was done to you and to reclaim your ability to think critically.
And that is a process and it's just been lots of therapy. What was one thing that helped her the most?
Do you think, Gosh, you'd have to ask her that, I mean, because I'd like to think it, you know, it was me, but I don't think it was.
I think it was a lot of things.
She she met a lot of people who gave her a different perspective, and that perspective sort of shatted the cult persona like a watching her blossom was really beautiful and coming back to herself, well, I.
Mean, I just appreciate you coming on here and sharing the story and for being vulnerable, and you know, you're obviously your words and your story are going to help a lot of people, and hopefully, you know, I hope everyone gets your book too, because I mean, it's it's unfortunately not just a fascinating made up story. You know, it's real and something that you guys have been through
and others are probably going through right now. So hopefully this will be the first you know, look into it and then also the you know, the help to get out. So we appreciate you.
Thank you, thank you so.
Much, both, Thank you Catherine, and listeners, don't forget to watch the true Hollywood story on this Thanks Catherine. Thanks you guys.
Take care.
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Policy Genius the easy way to compare and buy life insurance. What's up, guys?
What's happening?
Mark Easton? Are you there?
I'm here. Easton is dealing with other podcast as we speak. He's running around this building like.
Crazy awesome, Go team Go. How are you guys living the dream? Yeah?
Every day day we're hustling.
When we last left, we had a discussion about Mike's trip to Mount Kilimanjaro. Is there but any further discussion on that?
No, we got other stuff more at the forefront that we're working on. That's okay.
Well then I'll be quiet and let you guys go.
Do you have anything, honey?
Nope, I really don't want to be here right now, so I've.
Kind of gotten that vibe.
Actually, we wear our hearts on our sleeves. Mark what can we say. It's a blessing. It's a blessing and a curse.
I mean, if you want to talk about it, be my guess, Michael.
You know what, here's the situation, and this is I mean, I'll tell you, well, we give these listeners some good stuff.
Yeah, it's real good. My heart on the floor. It's really good.
I'm not saying that.
I'm just really no, I know, it's just really good stuff.
You really want to talk about this, I mean, go for it.
I already got all that out there. I might as well just keep it on a roll.
And I'm sure people deal with this. So all right, here's I'll give the the gist of it. Oh no, let me start on Saturday. On Saturday, we had some friends in town about to go out for a date night. I received this text message from this number I don't recognize. Open it up. It's a picture of a female and like.
A message or large bibs top off.
Mm hm.
Message from a female with weird writing under me saying oh, let's try to meet up this time or something like that. I don't.
I mean, you brought it up.
So this was the wrong number. This was an old situation.
Yeah, but it wasn't anybody I knew. Oh, and so I see it and I'm like, okay, I know the right thing to do is to go get Janna, pull her aside, and say, hey, I receive this. I don't know what the hell it is, but I just need to let you know because something like this has happened. Happened like a year ago when when we were in la very similar situation, nearly identical, and I brought it to Jana and I said exactly pretty much that hey,
I just got this. I don't know what the hell it is, but I just needed to bring it to you. And she handled it well, she really did. And this situation Saturday, even though I consciously had that dialogue with myself saying I know what I need to do here, I was terrified to do so I started kind of rationalizing in my head. I'm like, man, we're about to go out to a date night with like two other couples.
I was like, in the other end, on the other side, I'm like, we've Jan and I have really had a good run recently, like not a lot of past stuff coming up. We've been handling situations pretty well, handling triggers pretty well, talking things out where it's like it really felt like we were building a lot of forward momentum, and really majority of our conflicts were around day to day marital issues, and so the part of me that won in this situation was like, this is the past
coming back up. I don't want any part of this. This is not me. Like, get out of here and delete block done all with the intention in Gene will chime in after I'm done talking definitely about this is I was like, look, I need I don't want to bring this up now. I don' want any part of it right now. I felt like a hot potato. I didn't even want it in my text messages. Get rid
of it. I talked to my sponsor usually like every Monday morning, because I know where he's going, I know where he'll be and I can get a hold of him. I want to talk to him and go from there with all the intention of bringing to Jenna letting an the situation, telling her why I deleted it, which was because I just didn't want any part of it, none
of it. And so then yesterday I don't know what inspired Janna, but she looked she saw my Apple watch and saw the text message on there, so when she compared to my phone, she thought I was just being sneaky and deleting it. And I understand, and I truly am empathetic to the fact that her seeing something that was deleted that wasn't brought to her attention by me in a healthy.
Way, because it's a boundary.
Is extremely triggering. And yeah, it's a boundary to not delete things something that we have mutually discussed and agreed on. So a lot of stuff comes up for her, a lot of stuff comes up for me, and it's we had a couple of session about it this morning, and it's just it's one of those things that's just different
cult to navigate. The only thing I can think of and how this person even had my number was almost eighteen months ago when I had my relapse and I was reaching out to numbers of a plethora of numbers, and which again, which is how this same situation happened like a year ago. And so it's just it just sucks because it's it's just as soon as we feel like we're hitting a good, you know, patch, it's just like my past behaviors, my past actions come back to
haunt me. And then because I didn't handle it in the way I know I had to, it made it even worse.
So the thinking was, we're going for a date and night, it's going to be great. Things have been so good with us lately. I don't want to trigger her in any way.
Yeah, And I was just like, this is so not me. I just don't want any part of this right now. I don't want or period. I don't want this life. This isn't the life that I'm living now.
It's a part of your life you want to bury, and it's rearing it's ugly head and you're just like, get away, get away, get away.
Yes, which is understandable, but not what Jane and I agreed on on how to discuss these things and handle these things. And it's beyond hurtful to see Gianna hurt and upset and feel the things that she feels because of the things that I've done in the past.
And Jenny, you regularly go through texts no I.
Don't, I haven't. Yeah, we'd gotten to a fight that morning or the afternoon or whatever, and I just I don't know. I saw a little watch thing on the counter in the bathroom and I just I always have this like really weird intuition. Every time I've had that intuition, it tells me to look and I always find something. And when I looked, I was like, god, damn it, I saw it and I just immediately started my heart just fell. I was like, it's here. It's happened again.
I'm such a freaking idiot. And I immediately called my best friend and I just was like shaking, crying outside and then I texted the number where I called the number, and then I texted it and it was like please. You know. It's like it said like sorry, Hun, can't can't, can't talk on the phone, like do you want me to come over? And I was just like you texted my husband. I would love to know your correspondence, like
please from one one woman to another. And I'm just like as I'm typing this, I was like this is literally like how is this happening again? And then like the messages got like really weird then like it sent me the same message that it sent Mike, and so that it started to think, Okay, maybe this is like one of those like computer people. Yeah, like abot like computer because it was like what kind of boobs do you like? And I'm like, Okay, this isn't a real person.
So then I'm like, yeah, they're not even reading it. They're just like I'm coming to Nashville, like let's hook up. And I'm just like okay. So then I like got to that point. So I'm like, Okay, so maybe he hasn't this is an actual person, but maybe he like got on a site because you know, usually when you sometimes go to sites, those things can get on your phone and then then you're part of it, like that
spam thing. So but I'm like, how would he get on porn sites because he's got comented eyes on his things to not have the ability to go to those places. And so then I called my sponsor.
Or.
She's kind of my sponsor. It's weird. She's she's in the program and she's a sex addict, and so I called her and I just was talking this through and and the part is is it's the deleting. It's the because I'm like, if he didn't delete it, like I like he said, Mike said it like he came to me before and I was totally fine with I wasn't fine with it, but I was like, Okay, this sucks, but thanks for bringing it to me. It's the the sneakiness of like feeling like he deleted it because I'm like,
I like he saw before. I didn't freak out. I could understand if maybe I freaked out before and through a fit, but I didn't. I was okay with it as okay as I was. So the part that like scared my sponsor was that you know that he deleted it and withheld information, especially since that's the boundary and you know, and so they're like, okay, like you know this isn't the smoking gun. What you know? Do you hire a PI? And I'm just like, oh my god, like my whole my whole world is about to just
fucking crumble again. And I'm like, and I just started. I'm just like how like this I know how, but I just so it's just been to feel I'm just sick of finding things. I feel like I'm constantly and it's like some of then someone says, well, don't look, but then it's hard not to look when I have that intuition to look.
And from your standpoint, the coincidence of the one time you look, yeah, you find something that's got to be tough, but.
Well, yeah, and it's every time. And then it's like the hard thing too is a lot of the times when I do find something, he'll say, no, I'm sorry, it was just I don't know. But then there's always something after that. And that's where I'm like, Okay, now I'm like living in the lava again. When am I
gonna get completely covered by it? Because that's next And that's the part that's like, that's the part that's like, you know, I don't want to live this kind of life to know when the like we just moved into this beautiful house and we had a second kid, like we've fought so hard, Like why is this happening again? And that's what I'm so scared of because it's it's not whether he ends up meeting up with someone or not. I mean that last relapse, he almost did and I
was gonna sign the papers. So it's like he gets even close to the fire and I'm gone, it's like does And I'm like does he not know that and realize that and love our family enough? And I know it's not a bar our family, it's not about me, but that's just where but unfortunately we met or fortunately we had a couple's well. So last night I just was like, get out of the room, you know, out And this morning we had the obviously the couples therapists
and it was a new therapist. The poor guy just got out of majorly baptized by fire because but you know, and he just was like, you know, gave Mike the opportunity to come forward and know that I'm going to start researching and looking into things on the phone bill and just he's like, can you try not to go all the way down the rabbit hole? You know, He's like, do you need to look for a couple of weeks
and see? And that's the hard part because now I have to go, Okay, was he on an inappropriate side that I don't know about? Was this just a fluke? Is he really? You know, I'm like, I love you, Mike, but like you're a good liar, Like you pass the lie at doctor test, you know what I mean. Lying. So I'm like, you're you're charming as how people believe you like you've lied to like I mean I've seen you like look me in the eye and tell me
that what your truth was. But it wasn't your truth? Yeah, So it's like I'm kind of cat and like this weird, Like what do I believe?
How?
Was it just a fluke? I don't know. And that's where I'm just like I kind of just feel like I'm like I've given enough signs to the freaking universe. So I'm like, do I do I keep asking for signs? Or are these my signs? But like you can get out of dodge. Sorry, this is just really fresh.
Don't be sorry, oh.
Amy, of course you don't be sorry at the show.
No, But I also am like here with tears in my eyes and I the thing that's is you're not looking at each other right now, and you're not speaking to each other, and your body language is really tough right now, and you're talking about him but he's right next to you.
Because I'm just not ready to look at me because I don't know what I'm looking at.
Okay, that's okay, what would help you?
I don't know. That's a thing I can't There's nothing that I'm like, I don't I don't know, but I just I'm like, why can't you Just like I didn't give you a reason to not tell me the truth or to not just be like, hey, this came up, Like I just need like in moments like that, because I always ask, I'm like, hey, is anything inappropriate? Or I give him then opportunity to come to have a safe place, and I like, I want those moments so bad.
I want to see that he's working his recovery and working the boundaries like that stuff is so huge for me, which is why I didn't freak out the last time when he came to me.
Well, Michael, what scares you? What scares you? To tell her?
And that's just it's it's scary period. I understand because there's so much shame because in my mind, yes, even though I know the right thing to do, it's still a reminder of the things that I've done. And so there's just there's so much pain. There's so much fear behind that that you had a part of me. It's just like, I don't want her to have to think of that stuff.
What about forgiving yourself first, Mike and trying every day because you have so much pain, And then because of that, it is all over Jana and she has to carry so much because you won't forgive yourself. She can't forgive you until you forgive yourself.
I mean, I've told him I forgive him.
I know you have. And Mike, you are a good person. You are you both are so beautiful and strong and open, and I just don't know that you guys know it. So Janna, I read this article. It's really interesting you bring this up about the need to know versus the fear of knowing, And I think that that's something that you should think about and talk to your sponsor therapist about because it seems that that's what you grapple with.
You need to know, but you're afraid to know, and that becomes a painful conflict for someone and neither is necessarily I.
Need to know for safety, That's the thing, Like, that's kind of what I've always when something comes up, because I want to know that he's because it is hard for him to tell the truth. It has been in the past. So it's like to know that I'm safe in this marriage and to know that he's not acting out like those are the things, like those land minds, that land minds that he gets for me to be able to see and to know that he's doing what he's you know what people have told him and how
to you know, how to tell me? And it's like and with me being empathetic and sitting in it and knowing what he's doing, like that's that, It's like, it's it's so helpful. It shows me that he's on the right path. Security And yeah, it gives me security is telling me the truth and not just deleting things. Like the deleting things just I mean, it just whether it's it was a fluke text sends me right back to him deleting all the messages that he did with his affairs.
I understand that. I understand that.
So it's just it's heavy because I'm like and now I just I don't know what I.
Don't know, Well, you feel out of control?
Yeah, I just I feel like I'm just like my anxiety level is just like through the roof.
And did the therapist this morning have any input on that about what to do now?
Uh, to take the space we need and to rely on what we need to rely on in order to take care of ourselves.
Mm hmm, it makes sense.
I know.
I feel like Janna has to find the security in herself.
That's the thing. Like I'm when you know, when I got upset last night, like staring at my house outside in our driveway. It was I'm I'm secure with me, but like our relationship and I thought we were. It's just I felt like it was like a slap in the face. So I'm not secure in his recovery. But it's not my recovery, that's the thing. So it's it's that's the the that's the the hard part about living with an addict. Today. I'm not secure. A few days ago, I elsecure.
I'm trying to just process everything. It's it's really complicated.
It is, and it's it is, but it's not, you know, And that's that's honestly, it's that's part of the weight and the frustration and the pain of it all because when you look at it, if you put it down on paper, it's very simplistic. Just all I had to do was come to her and say, hey, this happened.
So what is your answer why you didn't?
First of all, for me, feeling safe in telling the truth is something that goes back since I was young, Like I have fear around even being honest because of how it was received in my upbringing. So that's a very big traumatic trigger. For me and has definitely been my biggest hurdle in living with integrity and being completely honest and transparent and in everything in all accounts, because I want to run so far away from that life of getting that kind of text message of being reminded
of the piece of shit I used to be. That it's just it's that shame hit, that kick in the dick, and I just selfishly I didn't want any part of it. And that's the part that's unfair because I took that opportunity away from myself and from Jana because I wanted to spare myself and her. But I feel like it was more of a selfish decision because I was scared.
So when I hear you call yourself a piece of used to be, it's you weren't.
But that's but that's it. That's how That's how I feel, That's how I felt. That's part of may when you.
Work on that part and forgiving yourself and knowing, then you will trust Jana. Janna is fiercely loyal to you, Michael, and you need to be willing to share with her the worst parts of you.
She will not leave.
Well, yes, but if you would have told her, and you are not a piece of Mike.
You are not.
I never learned how to trust the truth that trauma.
But it's not on her. She's shown you so much loyalty. But I also want Jane to when she hears you call yourself a piece of it breaks my heart. It must gut her. M or a good guy right right, But you are a good guy. I hate hearing you say that about yourself, and I would feel the same way if Janna criticize herself that way.
I'm just sorry.
You can say that, say it to her.
I am sorry I didn't handle it the way that we agreed upon and handle it the right way for myself, for you, and for both of us. I'm sorry that the damage that something like again that seems so simplistic can cause.
I hear you.
I just am having a hard time with you saying that you were gonna tell me, because it's like you know't how many times I've heard it, But I was gonna tell you, absolutely, But so I'm like, you deleted it, like just own that you weren't gonna say you don't want any part of it, that you just deleted it. I don't I just the saying that you were gonna tell me about it is the part that I'm just like, I do not buy And I don't blame you for not wanting to tell me, not one in that life.
I don't. But I'm like, I have a heart because I'm like, you know, at times I've heard you say, but I'm gonna I was gonna tell you about it. So after twenty times of finding things, I don't believe that line anymore. I believe you deleting it and just being like I don't want this life. I do believe that, and you Step, I get that. I totally would get that. But the fact that you're trying to hide behind saying but you were gonna tell me, I don't get will
I will not believe you on that. I just don't.
And I can't really hear her, really hear her, because she's making a really really clear point there, and I understand.
It, like I'm totally giving you the opportunity to be like, you're right, and I you know, even though I said I was going to tell you you're right, that is a lie. Maybe my intentions sure were, but I probably wasn't. That would make more sense to me.
That that I can agree with before when I hear you before, when we talked about it, it seemed black and white, and I I didn't want to like challenge my own integrity of just outright admitting that I wouldn't. My intention was absolutely to bring it up because I know that was the right thing to do with it.
You think in your heart of hearts you were going to bring it up.
I don't know.
Now that's an honest answer. I'm like that. I can actually like the question.
My intention and plan was to but like you said, like you just asked, I don't know.
Do you know why you lied just now saying when you say I was going to tell you and jam At, that's because I doesn't believe.
Because I believe that I do, because of the work that I've been doing, the work that I am trying to do, I like to believe that I would default and do the right thing. I don't think there's any answer. Yeah, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that.
No, that's a fair answer, or are you really going to call perhaps on Monday?
That was my intention? Absolutely, that was that was my intention. Again, but to answer it, I like to think so that was my intention, But I don't know. I don't know if I would have woken up this morning and followed through, I don't.
Know, And it wouldn't have bothered you at all. It would just it's out of sided and mind you just deleted it and whatever.
I can't speak for the situation. I can't go through and say if this would have happened, if that would hapen. All I know is that when I deleted it is because I didn't want any part of it. Now, this is where I feel like you're trying to trap me into saying something. See I told you this, I told you.
No, it's just because it's that's you wouldn't have told me. And I know that. So I just really want to be done. I'm closing off guys. Sorry, No, that's okay.
I don't want I want you guys to take a breath. I'm a little nervous about you guys, just like.
No, it's fad. We got our kids, so we'll just go our separate ways and be fine.
What can we do for you, both of you? Like if I was as brave as both of you to tell you the ways that I understand what both of you are saying, Like It's really important because so many people can relate, even if it's a different example. It's really powerful. Like I feel truly for both of you right now, truly hope and I hear you both and I believe you.
I hope in next week when people listen to this that they understand it's this is real. And that's why we share is because we know that there's other people out there going through either the exact same situation or like you said, amy different topic but similar, similar details.
And I under stand to make it go away, make it go away, And I understand so much of what Janna feels so much. That's why it's like there's no answer because you're it's I get it, and you do need time. We love you guys so much.
Let me bite
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