How to Fight Fair

do a little D D sneak. But this is like the old so I have I have about um probably like a million songs that I haven't cut from the past, and this this is the one song that I have always wanted to cut and I never have. UM. But it's not going to be the slow It's just gonna be. I mean, this is so. This is before this me singing. This is before I got a record deal. Get ready for it. This is how much I love the song. Would you describe this as a bob It's a slow bop.

It's nothing, yep, little sneak peak, little sneak peak. Can we no, because they're just gonna have to wait. No, You're just gonna have to wait. Decent, I'll send it to you. At least you have it but it's gonna be It's gonna be a lot in that. But I mean that rips as it is like if you go faster, I might I might explode. But it's a it's a

good little love, a little love song. But no, it's a song that I wrote my old producer that UM I used to work with at the label, and I was like, am I allowed to cut an old song that you guys passed on? And he was like yeah, I was like cool, thanks got the green light. So yeah, I'm cutting that. So new music is on the way, east On. Just so when do you think we'll be able to add that to our playlists and everything? When's that going to hit shelves? I'm thinking April, maybe March.

Oh wow, that's soon. Yeah, I'm excited for I think you're going to play it at the l Ray Theater show right, Yes, I am, which we're coming to hey Easton actually, so wind downs going on the road. We're going to Texas the first UM the first week of March. We're doing UM San Antonio, Austin, Houston, Dallas and it's going to be a lot of fun and you know it's not recorded, but we just hang out we just kind of interact with people, and at the end of

the show, I sing. But we're also at the end of March, coming to Sacramento in Los Angeles and Easton. Would you like to pay a guest? I would love to be a dream come true. Thank you. Maybe we could even have like an Eastern duet. Oh my god. I mean I was just wondering if I should buy a ticket or not. I was like, can I get you know, you got me on the list for the House of Blues and you were so nice to do that, But I don't want to assume that I can get

that going forward. Jane, I'm about to buy a ticket, but I would I would be so honored to be part of the show. Thank you so much, Well everybody. I should definitely then go to Janna Cramber dot com to get their wine down tickets to also see Eastern at the l Ray Theater. Mark would come, but he, um, it's past his hest kids, right. Oh yeah, I don't like going places and doing things. You're like me on a regular basis, Yeah, exactly. Um, do you have a

new bop coming out? Mike? Uh No, I don't, right, you sing all the time? I do sing all the time, which is funny. Someone actually, someone just asked me recently, who was it. I don't remember. They're like, does Jane just seeing all the time like at home? And uh I was like, no, Actually, I'm the one that sings all the time and I have a terrible voice. That's

not true. You have a really good voice. And it's just but it's just funny that the people that like you that can sing and do professionally don't sing at home. Described Ken, it's I don't know, platinum selling singles. Gay, Okay, okay, anyways, what's going on? N handle the compliment, okay, Michigan right now. But I'm just think it's funny that the people that can't sing are the ones that are singing, and the ones that actually can don't at home. You know what

Michael's bop is right now? Mark, since you said Bob Michaels were all obsessed with the Greatest Showman soundtrack, I mean him and Jolie. Oh I love it, like so good the amount of time, so good that they're running around the house doing like singing those songs, which what's your favorite one that you always sing? Come Alive is great?

I mean, the Greatest Showman's um, the one between zac Afron and Hugh Jackman enough his Fantastic Sick that's like the ballad when Julie hangs on the railing on the stairs, and like you did this spin where he wiped out the other night. Doing it was what I would have given to have, Like my phone, I wear my socks and I'm just like doing power slides and moonwalk and

all over the the kitchen and stuff. And I feel like I have to ice my knee every time I'm done dancing because we just go at it and stuff. Even Jason's like spinning around walking back where it's trying to moonwalk. It's so cute. He'll spin and then turn around and like walk back where it's like he's been walking. It's amazing. My kids went through a Greatest Showman Face two, but it wasn't nearly as long as the Frozen Face, and I wanted it to keep going. It shouldn't have

ended because I'm with Mike. I love that entire soundtrack. The other side is the one you're referring to because it got to be sad. As a former professional athlete, there's not as ice as knee. I've been dancing to a huge Jackman songs. It's so bad. But you know, I told Janna too after I saw this movie, and I'm obsessed with a soundtrack. I know Janna and I had this discussion before, but I love the bringing up

with all of us right now. And I'll go ahead and I'll start by by answering my own question because I'm that excited about it. So, if there's any kind of genre movie, what kind of movie would you like to be? In mind before anyone goes is I would love to be in any kind of military like Lone survivor Thirteen Hours, any kind of type of military, you know, shooting shoot him up, a movie like that. Or my second we're doing we're doing it like I'm just I

just have to say this. My second, on the complete opposite side of the spectrum, is to be in like the greatest Showman type musical movie with dance numbers and all that stuff. I would love it that. I mean, one of your best friends is one of the biggest casting in directors in Hollywood, So it's like, just just tell them that's what you want to do, and I'm sure I'll put you in one of those movies. This is true, And if you don't mind having like your

wife like on like where's the hook? I'm here? Um, well that's cool. So I think that's pretty neat. Yeah, Eastern, I want to hear yours next. Oh man, Um, I too love musicals. I would love to be I would love to. I would love to say I just want to sing a dance, That's all I want. I mean, i'd like to be in a superhero movie. Yeah, yeah, I'd like I'd like to put on a super suit and fly around and blow up bad guys. And I could see you being in like a dead Pool. I

would love to. I would love to be a met a superhero. I'd love to break some fourth walls, you know, Mark, I'm real curious to know what yours is. I think i'd like to be in like a sports movie, like

a baseball player in a sports movie. I think that'd be pretty neat because that's a fantasy of mine because I can't do anything athletically, like literally nothing really, and growing up I would go out for literally because I love baseball with such a passion and I was always the one of the through in right field and bad and laughs, because I couldn't hit the ball. I was so bad. But on a movie that I could be amazing, I would say that interesting. I love it. I mean,

take a guest, guys, what do you think? I know the answer Eastern Mark. Well, this is where because you're an actual actress in movies. But I've never been in a certain type of movie. I've always wanted to be in. Oh okay, you're a You're a big city girl that goes home to a small I've done five thousand of Who, five thousand and one, I got another one coming soon. It's not that it's not a romantic. If I could go back, it would be. Well, there's two things since

Mike did too. The first one is pride and prejudice. I want to Mr Darcy so bad. Well, that's a good one. A period like what a dream like Dreamboat? That movie is just my everything. And honestly, for the longest time, I was like, where's my Mr Ducie right here? And so then and then um, I kind of want to play like remember that movie with Ben Affleck and Blake Lively. Oh my gosh, I'm forgetting the movie now

where she's like a total drug the town. I would want to be Blake Lively in the town drug addicted, I do. I think it'd be just like I don't know, trash and I just want to just I want to be I want to be Alex from One Tree Hill on like steroids it. Yeah, so that's I mean, I'd love to see that. I think that would be fun or or or and he it was like times, like you know about time that was so good with Rachel mcgadhams. I just want to I just would like to work.

I told I told Janna this, and this is I feel like Janna sells herself short when it comes to her capabilities as an actress. And I was watching this uh behind the scenes thing on john Wick three and where Halle Berry was being interviewed and just watching how Hallie Berry go through the training and everything. I was like, that's just Janna And I told you after I saw it, I was like, you need to put yourself out there, get out of your comfort zone because you're hard working.

Dedication when you are into something or like on a on a project or on a job is so intense. Like you would kick ass in that training, you would kick ass in the physical you know, requirements needed for a role like that, and you can be very intimidating. Your little cute self can be very intimidating. I've seen it, so I was like, you can do that stuff, and

I really think you should. You should try. I know, anytime my agents sent me like a cop, I'm like nol pass because I just feel so silly to be like put him up or if you do like that, Like like I know that if I was on set and I was in the costume and I had the gun, like I could be badass, but in the audition, I'd be like put them up, put him up, put them up, freeze crazy. Every every person should be acting with be like all right, here's a face mask. It's a picture

of my husband. Wear this. Stop stop. Like we said in therapy, were not going to make jokes. Now you're making jokes, so you can that. I can't. No, I'm not making jokes out here. We go and then we're taking a turn. No one that everybody. That was a fun game like that. Um oh, I'm really excited. We have a really really cool guest on today. UM. Her

name is Susan Stiffleman, and she's a badass. Um for over thirty years, Susan has worked with families to create greater harmony and deeper connection between parents and children, which I think is awesome. And then I was on her website to an Eckhart Toll Lana's Marsett like they've all get just like saying her praises so um. She's got a lot of great books out there to parenting without power struggles raising joyful, resilient kids while staying cool, calm

and connected like hella um. So I'm excited to talk to her. Should we take an email before we talked to Susan? Oh? I love it. Early email, early email. We'll see Janet has issues in the bedroom. Janet says, actually said, it's very nice things at the top here that I'd like to share with you. She says, Hey girl, I'm a huge fan. I've loved you since One Tree Hill. I have fallen in love with your podcast. They're so informative and funny and make my day. That's sweet. That's

very sweet. Anyway, thank you, she says. Okay, So when my husband and I started dating, I wanted sex more than him, and over the years the roles have reversed. Now he wants it way more than me. I have a sixteen year old and a three year old, and I work a full time job, and at night I rock my son to sleep. That's like our mommy and sun time, and then I lay him down, and then it's time to clean up toys. And then by the time I get to bed, all I want to do

is sleep. I love, love, love my husband. I just don't know what to do, so I can relate on both sides. Having said that, I feel like when you're that tired, because I get it. At the end of the day, it's so tiring, but if it's been longer than a certain period, you just gotta do it. I think that's just my It's just just like your relationship

is work. That involves work in the bedroom too. Whether sometimes you want to have the conversations and it's like you don't want to fight, you don't want to have the deep, drawn out conversations. But that's kind of like sex. You don't really want to have sex, but you gotta do it because it's part of it's part of the relationship, it's a part of what. But I'm just saying like it's a part of what the man needs. It's a

part of whether you want to or not. You know, it's kind of like you just have to give a little bit. Yeah, but is that I mean, I feel like that's a very I mean, husbands are nodding their head and they're thrilled with that answer. But is that the right answer? Is it the right today? Whatever? I've heard some women say that if you want to keep your man happy, give it to him whenever he wants. I'm not saying that, not whenever. I don't think whenever,

because I think that beats a dead horse. Like especially, you shouldn't be giving something that you don't want whenever he wants. It's just a hey if whatever they come up with, maybe how what what is enough for for him? Or that's also okay for her, Like hey, I don't want to do it every week, but I could do it every two weeks. You know that way, it's like

they kind of have this agreement. Doesn't make it as fun and as romantic, but when you get that far into marriage, it's kind of like all right, but then also do fun ways to spice it up, like maybe if he would not do it so um routine, like maybe if or maybe she'd want to do it too, like maybe not the end of the day, like maybe hey, a little like lunch call, fun time. That's what I

was thinking. Has changed up the time a little bit because sometimes first thing in the morning, before the kids wake up, might be a better option because for whatever reason, or yeah, maybe middle of the day, somehow you can make it happen. That's probably a better idea, only because I don't like whatever he wants, you know, if he wants to do it, you know, I don't know. It just doesn't feel it's it kind of feels wrong to me.

I agree with that too. I agree with it. It's not whenever he wants, but there are times get a timeline. I almost feel like, and then discuss that. What do you think, Mike, I think, Uh. The way I received your point was I liked the comparison to just like, you have to have conversations and talk about problems and conflict in in marriage, in relationships, that's part of a necessity that you have to do um and you know, sex is part of the physical connection intimacy of relationships.

So it's just like Janna said, that takes work as well as everything else intellectually and emotionally. So it's just one of those things you got to consider that. It's not it's not something where it should just be taking off the table like I'm just too tired for a month. Why can't you understand I'm tired. But eventually you have to I don't have to do anything, but you should. I mean, you should want to connect with your partner,

you should want to please them and do those things. Yeah, it's just part of It's just part of it all. It's part of marriage, is part of work, working on the relationship. I mean, yeah, it's just funny because when I was talking to an errand my trainer has been so open about her sex life and how you know, she even said it on our podcast that they don't really have sex a lot to every like six months or something like that. And in you know, in my mind,

I'm like, Okay, what is that? What is that lack of intimacy than due to the relationship or is it okay? And that's just what works for them, you know, maybe that is just what works for both of them, which is far Yeah, which is totally fine, But I think just figuring out what works for each other where that the girl isn't just compromising or the guy isn't just compromising like himself? Like kind of too your part point where you were saying Mark, you know, not having to

compromise like no one's kneeds are put above somebody else's right. Yeah, interesting? Do you have another one before season clo. Let's see. Let's see. Kelsey has some suggestions for us. So, she says, she heard you talking to Joe Frost super Nanny, and one of the you mentioned your issues with night training, potty training at night, w a pain in the acctive to change the sheets at three am. Well, she has a hack for you. She says, all you need a

two mattress protectors and two fitted sheets. Just make the bed twice as it were. Then when an action occurs, you stumble into your child's room half asleep. You strip the first layer away and behold, the second layer is already there, nice and clean and dry. Hope this helps, and still give me a shout out. Shout out Kelsey and the other one. She wanted to mention her favorite Birds and the Bees book. Her daughter is five and she is the most educated and informed for her age.

The book explains where babies come from in an age appropriate manner. It's called It's Not the Stork, a book about girls, boys, babies, bodies and friends. Interesting. I like the double sheet thing. I never really thought about that. Usually I just put down those crab protector squares. But I like the double the double sheet crib or mattress protector. That's kind of great. And like the princess and the piece, she just gets higher and higher and higher. I know

that you do. You know it's your go for it. That that double sheet thing. I just it's been a couple of weeks since I've went the bed, but the that double sheet thing went viral on the internet a couple like six months ago. It was like, hey, if you hate doing laundry, you hate making your bed, just like put like three or four sheets down, then when one gets dirty, you take it off and then you're you're good to go. Like you do it in advance. But my personal opinion is I think bodily fluids can

soak through. I don't think when sheet is going to do the job, Well, that's the mattress protector. That's I'm still against it. I'm still against The man is spoken, he's against it. So they were saying to do that like as adults, like just put on multiple fittage adults. What about pellow cases. Yeah, this person doesn't seem to care. I guess that's the worst of it for me. Yeah, those other sheets are are just as offensive. I think. Hey, Mark, question for you, Yes, where have you guys gone? And

the family vacation? Um? We The hard thing for us is that all of my wife's family, and she has a large family, and they're all in Wisconsin, and so whenever we have an opportunity to take time off, we pretty much go to Wisconsin. We've also visited and visited my sister in Seattle. As far as straight up family vacations, they've been few and far between. But we've done San Diego a bunch of times. And gosh, is that it? That's sad? If that's it, Sorry, I didn't like we

did Mexico was part of Arta once. Yeah, there's not been a lot because when we have time off, we had to Wisconsin. And it's also tough being down here in the lower corner of the country. It's like Vegas, San Diego, San Francisco. Otherwise you got a long trip ahead of you. And now that's what we were kind of. So I'm starting to have anxiety just from the amount of like stuff that's pilot on this year, and I hate being away from the kids. Like I I personally

like to travel with the kids. Mike doesn't like to travel with the kids. Um, and so it's that kind of battle but between us both because I I I personally would like to bring them on the tour and I would like to, um, you know, maybe then stay when we're in l A for a week or so and have the kids here, and then I'm like, yeah, we can then go to the beach and then you know, do some this, and and um, you know, he's just more of like, you know, don't get the kids out

of the routine, which I understand. But then also I have the I'm left with the mom guilt of being away and being away so much and having to like fly to things and not taking them with me. So

it's just been like really really weighing on me. And then so I was like, well, can we at least plan a family vacation where it's just us for it's not you know, going to Michigan or Virginia and it's just I mean, it's just us for as a family and we go somewhere and that way I have something to almost look forward to in a way, knowing that I was going to have like this great quality time. It's so expensive to travel as a family. Four good.

I'm like, but it's like the flights. I mean, we even just planned our Fourth of July to go to Michigan and we had to cut costs and we're flying one place and then running a car here to go to a to be because I'm like, how like now I see when my parents we didn't travel as much.

It's so expensive and I just can't rationalize paying too grand for airfare and then then the hotels and I'm like ten tho dollars for just a king room and at Atlantis, like what, so, have any suggestions for a nice family I'd like a beach, preferably um email the podcast with some great family vacation ideas Eastern what's our email address? That's wine down And I hurt radio dot Com because I really would like to do Atlantis, but

it's so expensive. It is And also came in mind, I understand not wanting to break the kids from the routine because they have a hard time with that but if you never ever break them from the routine, you're never going to be able to break them. It's gonna be that much more traumatic because you're gonna have to someday. And if they've never been broken of it, I think it's gonna be a real hard time for that. Yes, but nope, nope, nope, nod. Also it's yes and or

yes also yes. Also, um My thing I was talking to buddy about a buddy of mine about it the other day is when they're this young, they're not going to remember the experience yet. I totally disagree with you, Joe. That's such a great age. Yes, Jolie is starting to be at that age. But it's depending on where we're going. I mean, yeah, beach trip, cool, Disney World awesome, But you know, here's my Devil's overseas or out of the

country or anything like that. Like it's not they won't remember, but when we travel, like we are capable of bringing them with us for work, and right now they're not in school. So in my mind, I'm like, we're not going to then take them out when they're in school, because it's like then I'm going to have you being like, well we can't miss any days of school and there

are attendants. So it's like, now is the time that I can have that, that we can have that time together with the kids, because in a year and a half, Julie is going to be an elementary school and Joelie is not going to be able to miss any days of school. Because you know, I get that you're wanting to be like strict about school, but right now, like now is the time I'm gonna meet me now halfway where it's like, let's let them travel with us and and be a part of our routine and have to

make those memories. And yeah, Jason isn't going to remember, but I'm going to remember having that time with him and not being away and traveling so much. They're going to see the pictures in the videos, which will at least if they don't remember it, they'll think they do because of all the pictures and videos. It's not like

when we were kids. Damn you Mark exactly, you know, and it's like that time, like Jason, this is our last kid, Like he's so precious and and Jolie's so fun right now and in no time, literally in a year and a half, she will be gone every single day at school, every single day, and then we're gonna be working around her schedule to go on family vacations because you don't want to take them out of school.

I hear you, and you make valid points. My question of that is, where's it come in when you know, I feel like when we talk about finances and recently, because this January wasn't as good as last January, you're freaking out, and so we wanted to be very cost conscious. Was understandable. But then when it comes to, oh no, but let's travel with the kids and buy four tickets and you know, do all these things, it's like not a big deal, like money still money. I totally hear

you in valid point. In my mind, though, when it's with the kids, I don't give a crap because I'm with my babies. I'll pay the extra or whatever to be with my babies because there you know that time is so precious. And then I'll have I'm working and I don't have mom guilt like I have them with me. How cool is that? I don't even care. That's why I didn't even care about doing the airbnb for a week and a half in l A, which we're all doing now because dud like just like like just our

nanny Kylie. She's even like, oh, She's like, hey, we should and we should try to, you know, convince dad. And I was like, oh, honey, I'm already on it, like I'm already trying hie up in both the years, trying to be come on that that can we go can go here? Can we go there? And then it's like and I have to go back to Kyle and be like he said no to the l A trip and they're like, damn it, Dad, But now I think I got you there with this whole school thing. You made.

You made a valid point of the school thing, and I'll be more lenient moving forward after the l A trip hashtag win. It's interesting you already know you're going to have conflict over Janna wanting to pull them out of school and Mike never wanted to because are I already feel that? That's why I'm like, okay, now, then give me it right now so that I then don't I'll then respect you more with what you want, but yet I won't pull you as much. I just love

having like Jolie was my road dog man. She was with me since she was six weeks old on the road on a bus, toured with me everywhere I went, went to New York with me, strolling around, did dancing the start like she was. She's she's like my roadie and I miss like I miss I miss having my kids with me when I'm out doesn't feel it doesn't it doesn't feel as good. At what point? And this isn't this isn't directed towards you, This is just on

this general topic of discussion. I have a great point to this some so at what point and this is and Dr Stiffelman is ready and we can maybe touched on this after. But my my question is, at what point does it become selfish to want to bring them everywhere? I think they're experiencing new places. I talked to one of Rascal Flats's daughter, who was on the road since she was a baby, and I pulled her aside when I saw her just a couple of months ago, and

I said, how is it? I just want to know it from your point of view, how is it growing up on a bus? And she goes, it was the coolest experience of my life. And she's like, I feel like I'm more UM, I feel like I'm more mature. I've seen so many amazing places and she's and I was like, awesome, cool, thanks, that's what I needed to How old is She's fifteen? Right, so she had some formidable years where she was out on the road experiencing that. Right.

The kids aren't that old to be experiencing No, she was. She started as a baby, so she grew up. She didn't really remember until she totally did. She thousand percent remember every second of it. Okay, let's take a break and talk to Dr Stiffleman. Okay, so excited. We have Dr Susan Stiffleman on the phone. Hey Susan, Hi, fine, thanks, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Thank you so much for coming on our podcast. Um. But Susan, you are a marriage and family therapist and even working

for over thirty years. Um, what do you have? Um? Like, what's your background? How did you get into family therapy? I was actually a teacher first, and after being a teacher for a long time, and I was always a little bit of a renegade, understanding that not every child work, you know, sort of process or in took in information in the same way and yet we were asking kids to sort of do the cookie cutter thing, And so I became more interested in alternative ways of learning and

processing and the various forms of intelligence. And that sort of led me to see that a lot of kids who are having trouble in academic ways showed up with emotional issues or vice versa. Kids who are having emotional issues might manifest it by having trouble with school or homework. And so I ended up becoming a family therapist to address both sides of the picture, both the emotional and psychological as well as the more educational and academic. And

one thing led to another. I started to do workshops and found myself deciding that really parents could get further with some of the ideas I was teaching if they learned some of the strategy instead of sending me their kids to be fixed. So um, that kind of led

me to doing workshops in the books and things like that. Um, I do you know, I have worked with children directly for decades, but more commonly, I found that when you help parents make some shifts in how they're approaching their their kids, you know how they're coming, helping them come alongside their kids rather than coming at them in a more adversarial way and letting go of some of the

patterns that they inherited from their own childhood. That that you just get you know, everybody's happy, or kids are more cooperative, parents who are more connected with their kids, and vice versa. Absolutely, And that brings me to a question I wanted to ask Susan, is when you start working with these parents, are many of them able to acknowledge or realize the traits that they received from their parents?

And are they do they have these moments where like, oh, my gosh, like I'm acting like my dad or I'm acting like my mom, or does that help them realize and kind of change that way. I love that you're asking that because it's not the conventional approach, But I do find that a lot of our own stuff gets triggered and brought to the surface when we're parenting, you know.

So we might have swore up and down, I'm never going to yell at my kids, I'm never going to shame them, I'm never going to threaten them, I'm not going to use bribes the way my parents did. And then in the heat of the moment that you're doing the exact same thing, and you're almost watching yourself like who is this person? What words are coming out of

my mouth? And yeah, And so when parents are kind of open to understanding that we have so deeply internalized the the patterns and the approaches that our parents used with us, then it takes some of the kind of guilt and shame out of parenting, which I'm a huge anti fan of, like we're so mean to ourselves when we lose our way as parents, And in my community and my work, I'm really about kindness and understanding and compassion, not only towards our kids, but towards ourselves off for

sort of stumbling along here, especially when we have difficult childhood. There's no way that it's not gonna manifest in one moment or another when we're stressed or tired or or you know, overwhelmed. So it's really reassuring when parents are open to the possibility that, yes, number one, they're doing what their parents did to them even though they can't

believe it and they promised not to. And also that um allowing that to just be so is the first step to making some shifts and being more intentional about doing it differently. What age do kids start to feel the tension between parents if there's conflict between the parents birth. I think kids are incredibly tuned in to us. I mean it's it's a survival mechanism for a child who's dependent on their caregiver to look after them and meet

their needs. Given how helpless children are, you know, human babies are that there's a heightened sense of awareness and attunement. Now the child, you know, one year old may not say I sent a lot of tension between you and mommy, but um, we have seen that kids do um absorb a lot and observe a lot. And it doesn't mean that parents shouldn't have conflict or fight. It's part of

the dance, isn't it. But um, Sometimes, even in very young children, if you if you and your partner have just had an argument or things are a little rocky, and the child seems more distressed or or a little more temperamental or crying more, and you think maybe there's they've picked up on something, you can just say, sweetheart, you know, daddy and I love each other so much, and you know you might be feeling that we were a little impatient with each other today, even with a

child who's not going to process that verbally because they're too little. I think it's a great, great thing, just setting a trajectory of we don't hide our feelings in this family. We don't run from them or sweep them under the rug. To say yes, sometimes being a grown up or married or human is is a little bit of a rocky ride, and we'll be fine. And you know, what you're feeling is what you're feeling, and we're not pretending otherwise. Kids, then it's okay for them to see

bouts of conflict. You know, we prefer that children not be a witness to ongoing arguments between parents. It's always best if you can, you know, have it. You know, maybe you give each other a look and you're really unhappy with something that your partner did or said, and the kids are in your midst and you kind of have your code word, like you know, peacock feather, and that's an indication like I'm not done with this right,

but um it is. I think that it's there's going to be time still when your child witnesses you guys giving dirty looks, are saying, well, I don't want to do without or no, I hate that restaurant or why why did you give her cookies right before dinner? That's just part of being human and we can aspire to never, you know, have conflict in front of our children, But I think that we can help help them make meaning of it in a way that doesn't leave them wondering.

You know, where's the floor here? Like? Am I just free free floating by acknowledging you know what, Daddy and I had a little bit of a disagreement. We love each other so much and we don't see eye to eye about that thing, and we're going to talk about it, and we love each other and we love you, So that the child is left knowing also that humans sometimes disagree or have conflict and that it's normal and they don't have to like pretend that never happens. In general. Yeah,

I don't have conflicts, But does that send um? Does that send also a bad not bad at all, but

like does that send a message? Like you know when when Jolie, our daughter, she's four, and she goes off to have relationships and she's like, well, I never saw mommy and daddy fights, and then that's or my mom dad fights, so you know, um, it's not right then to to have arguments and in a relationship ship, So does that set up kind of a bad um what's the word for that, like um experience then, like an expectation or like a panic, like, oh my god, I'm

I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy towards my partner, and I never saw my parents feeling that way towards each other. Is that what you mean? Well, again, you're going to have disagreements in front of your children, because that's what humans do. We don't always just sort of float along gracefully like little saints. So I don't think that. I think most children grow up sensing that people do argue

and disagree. However, you're right, there's some families that were parents who work so hard to shield their kids from that that the kids can grow up thinking something must be wrong here because I'm really having these arguments and fights with my husband, and my parents never did. So I don't think there's anything wrong with having small disagreements in front of your kids, as long as you narrate

and you acknowledge. You know, Daddy and I don't agree about whether it's okay to have have cookies and we're I'm a little annoyed with him, and I think he might be a little annoyed with me too, And we love each other and we love you, and we're gonna sort out our difference of opinion so that there at least you've laid a little bit of a foundation for them to know that this is part of what it's like to live with another human being, that there are

moments when you disagree for sure. And I have a kind of a theory around kind of children, and I just want to get your professional opinion, Susan. And it's you know, with Jane and I have done a ton of individual therapy, a ton of couples therapy, and you're really with all that work that you do on yourself, you really realize how much comes back to your childhood.

And then as a parent, it terrifies you, right because you're then you're just on you know, you know, your hands and knees, being like, please, I don't want to mess up my kids. And it makes you maybe overthink the whole parenting process. Now, my my kind of thought process around it is and correct me if I'm just completely way off basis, I feel like no matter what

circumstance or situation. Granted, there's there's some general traits whether someone goes through an abuse or neglect or whatever, or abandonment, whatever it may be. I'm sure there's similar traits and people that have gone through that in their childhood. But if you take two separate kids put them in the same exact situations, one of them might handle or react differently as as an adult than maybe the other one would.

My reason is just biologically we're all different. So there's no one thing of my childhood was this, This is all your fault, mom and dad, and you know, And people just want to stand on that because I look back in my story and with things that I've gone through and being in a twelve step program. Now, my parents came to me and we're very concerned and we're questioning, like what how is this our fault? Like what did we do? And I told them I was, look, here's

what I've learned. Yes, a lot of stuff comes up from childhood, but I know now and where I'm at that And I used the same story I said, if you took someone else, put him in the same childhood seam upbringing seam household as me, they could have not gone to an addiction, They could have had a different issue or no issue at all. So it's just one of those things I don't just again from my experience, I feel like people that hear that might want to blame their parents or whatever, and I just I know,

I don't blame mine. Yes, they contributed in some ways, but all parents do. I very much agree with that. And I don't know if you know glenn and Melton, but she and I have done a number of parenting classes together and she wrote these wonderful books carry On Warrior and Love Warrior, and yeah, so we've had so much fun together. And Glennon will will say, look, you know, she went through so much with addiction and her recovery and had this, you know, very loving family and a

sister who didn't. So I I've seen that a lot in my practice working with kids and with families, that children will kind of process and absorb challenging childhood in different ways. And for instance, I've done a lot of work with a population with the trait of heightened sensitivity. I've done some classes online with Elaine Aaron, who wrote

The Highly Sensitive Person, The Highly Sensitive Child. Now, if you have that trait, which about of the population has, then you will pick up more in your childhood, more tension, more, um more. If your parent is anxious or depressed, it may have more of an impact on you, and other kids might just skate right by that and not be impacted.

So I I think there's value in looking at your childhood and how some of the experiences you went through might have informed the challenges or the particular struggles you have or things you have to work on. But I agree that, um there's no point and no value and not even any validity in pointing your finger at your parents for the flaw the way they brought you up.

And in turn, when we're parenting our kids now this panic that we're sort of sending them, giving them a life sentence because we struggle with depression or anxiety or addiction. It's not true. Even if you have a child who's somewhat sensitive and who is experiencing the impact, we're different parents than our parents. If we're helping the child understand you know what, Mommy had a really hard day and is really struggling today, and I love you and I'm

getting support and help. Is there anything you want to ask me about it. Are you, you know, so that the kids don't We're not sweeping things under the rug the way many of our own parents did when there was a challenge in the family. Absolutely, and I completely agree, and I appreciate your outlook on that, and I the way I kind of try to simplify it is just it's all that childhood or whatever addiction. It's it's an explanation, not an excuse to how people are the way they are.

But honey, go ahead, how how could we correct anything that we've already screwed up? Possibly with our daughter, because that's that's my fear, as you know, just because the first you know, a couple of years was real rough in our marriage and I'm thanking God, you know, is this have I already? Then if she's going to remember us yelling at each other, you know, we don't do it often anymore. Um, there are times we get a little heightened, but you know, we've done a better job

of leaving the room. But it's like crap, Like is there a way that I can like fix it and

go back and and recorrect things? You know, Thank you for kind of being real about it, because what's amazing is you know, because I'm a family therapist, and for many, many years, I was a family therapist in the community with you know, in Malibu, California, with some of the most wealthy, powerful, famous people in the world, and you know, and on cover of magazines looking happy, happy, happy, and you know, and the truth is, when you're in my line of work, you find out that most people aren't

living lives the way there's look from the outside. And so you know, you might think and feel all this shame about Oh my god, we fought in front of our daughter. I can't believe that. I know, none of my neighbors ever would do that, or you know, all the ladies that the you know, it's just not true. You you would be really surprised at the truth In most families. For sure, there's some where there's a lot of peace and ease and great communication, but most of

us are at least somewhat dysfunctional. And it gets played out heavily in your marriage. So when your daughter, you know, she was quite young when some of the conflict was going on, you're probably not going to be addressing it in the way you would if she was ten years old when some of the conflict went on, and in which case you would say, you know, sweetie, we had a bumpy few months there when daddy wasn't staying here or and you know, whatever the circumstance about have been.

Is there anything you want to ask me about that. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that and it might have been really unsettling for you. And I'm here to answer any questions. The biggest thing that children need isn't to be sheltered from conflict or difficulty. It's to have the freedom and know that their parent

is sturdy enough and big enough. And you know, in my work, I talked about being that captain of the ship, captain the enough that whatever is sort of worrying them or disturbing them, they can bring it to us so they don't have to hide it from us. They don't have to try and in their own strange way process things or make sense of things. That's where we get

into trouble with a child who might have encountered that. Proverbally, if the behavior seems to be showing up, there's wonderful ways that are not like traditional therapy, Like I like the sand tray therapy when you see it if a child at some point starts manifesting some behaviors and you

want to help them kind of untangle them. There's a form of therapy where they're the therapist has a big tray of sand and on the wall of their office they'll have hundreds and hundreds of small figurines like ships and pirates and army people and trees, and the child can choose whatever they want and bring those items to the sand tray and create a scene and then work with the sand tray therapist to process some deeper feelings.

And of course as we get older, there's you know, things like E M d R, which processes pre verbal trauma in adults. Um, there's other ways to kind of get at the things that might be underpinning. But but I'm still having conversations about mistakes or I've made when I was parenting my now twenty nine year old son, and they're incredible. There's no expiration date when you say, Okay, well we're not going to talk about that rough patch anymore.

Because he's so much older, you know, he's learning through these conversations about the reality of relationship chips, the challenges of being a parent, and how to kind of heal things and apologize and make amends even much later down the road. It's so hard, and but fear doesn't help being afraid. Like, oh my gosh, please, I ask parents everybody listening, do not approach parenting like I'm going to ruin it. I'm going to break my child. I just

feel like that's amazing rebiliant. Yeah, that's where I just because cray. But even someone says on on Instagram their day, like you should leave your husband because you're like the kids are watching this, and I'm like, well, we don't argue all the time and from them. But then I'm like, oh crap, like maybe they like she has heard us a yelling before, so maybe that is why she was

acting out. And then I started to blame myself. Sorry, wait hard, Yeah, there's there's strangely, you know, I'm about to do a class. I've done a number of collaborations with Dr Dan SEAgel. Oh please don't be sorry. Thank you for letting people hear the truth. Parents fight in front of their children. Very few do not, let me just tell you the therapist when they tell me. Very

few parents don't argue and fight. Now some of them have these raging things, and that is where we want to make it possible later, even fifteen years later, sweetheart, you might not even remember the day that I asked Daddy to leave. I was so mad and I threw

something across the you know. I mean, you're not going to play it out if they're not asking, but you can certainly generalize and say, but here's the thing, Like when I do the work with Dan Segel, for instance, who does a lot on neuroscience of attachment, UM, and we're doing something together again, so I'm kind of prepping for that class. We don't aim for perfect parenting. It's

not helpful to children. It's better for children to to not always have us be perfectly attuned and to learn to kind of ride that that wave, that natural wave of being human, and to make amends and apologize and make repair when it's needed. So it's very dangerous to parent in a way that you're terrified that you're going to ruin your child. Um. Kids are much sturdier than we believe, as long as we make it okay for them and safe for them to tell us what they're

going through. Yeah, for sure, And well before we leave your Susan I mean, you kind of answered my question right there. But if there is one more bit of advice you would give to like, you know, new young parents, besides what you just said about not being fearful, what would you say to young parents like ourselves? Mm hmmm. Well, for another really big one that people don't do well enough, I don't think is get support. Um, we're not meant

to raise children one or two parent household. Were meant to raise children in a small community or tribe or village, and most parents are not doing that. Um. And it's really hard to be a parent. It's exhausting physically, it's emotionally taxing, it's relentlessly demanding. So I think it's so important when you're starting out with young children to to find like minded, lighthearted people and really create an extended family of sorts so that those are people you can

be honest with. You can say take could you please take my kids? I'm so tired, I just want to watch TV or take a nap and then then I'll take gears tomorrow. And and to sort of let your let yourself be propped up, um, and and don't have an expectation. This is great quote, lower your expectations you'll achieve more. You know that this might be dirty. You know, enjoy your children as much as you can. Ask for

help when you need it. Lower the bar in terms of what you're expecting when when you lose your way, not if, but when you lose your way or things go south in the house or with you. UM say you know what, sweetheart, that just happened. And you might be noticing that I was really mad, or I was really upset, or Daddy and I weren't being very sweet with each other. We love each other so much, we're learning how to work through our differences. Is there anything

you want to say or ask about that? Is there anything you need to feel more comfortable? And kids will tell you if you make it safe now. If the child says well, I hate it when you fight. I wish you would never fight again, and you say, well, okay, we'll never fight again, or you make some promise you can't keep. I don't think they're served by that. You would then say, well, gosh, I know, I know it feels so uncomfortable and we're arguing. I can understand why

you wish we would never fight again. And as much as I wish I could tell you that won't happen, it might because you know, being a person a human is is sometimes means we don't see things the same way as the people we like and live with. But I can promise you that we're going to keep working through things and you can always tell us how you're feeling. And we love each other and we love you, and so you're not sweeping stuff under the rug. Um, you're

making it it possible to really tell their truth. Um, but you're being realistic also, and you have to have faith that your kids really do come through when we can allow them to turn to us with whatever their truth is, even when it's hard to hear. Amazing, Thank you so much for all this helpful stuff. And sorry again then I tried to feel stupid, but I really appreciate it, and please don't be sorry. Well, Susan, thank

you so much. And where can our listeners find you if they want to get more information about your literature? What else your yeah? Yeah, oh, there's a monthly membership support group. There's co parenting with a narcissist support group. There's tons of classes on on chores and um, highly sensitive kids and screen time. We do a lot of stuff on kids in screen time. So it's just at Susan Stiffleman dot com. Awesome. Well I'm signing up right now.

So thank you so much, Susan. We really appreciate it. We have a great day. Thank you for your wonderful work. I love Susan. Yeah, I'm sorry, I just I have it's just like I said the other podcast or yeah, I think last week's I just have a really hard time when someone mentioned something about the kids and um, I had put something on Instagram a photo of us, and in a comment, you know, said yeah, until he does it again, and what a bad example you are

for the kids. No wonder why you know your daughter is acting acting out the way that she is. Um to like let you know, to let your kids be around and that kind of environment. And then just said like I was a week week B and it just really like there because because I do have some guilt, like there's been some fights that I don't ever want her to remember seeing. And you know, I know we've done a better job of it now going in the room and waiting until they go to bed, Like we've

done a great job of it. I think sometimes we still linger in conversations and I'm like stop, stop, stop, you know, um, because I think we had still have a hard time pausing. So um yeah, so I just feel like bad. I'm like, oh my god, maybe that is why like she's you know, like, is that is the reason that she's acting out or or I don't know.

So do you wanna hear my thoughts? Yeah? Um, that's unfortunate that that person wrote that, and because not like we're arguing every single day in the house and it's not like I mean, sorry, I got it, I got it. Um. First of all, she's acting out. She's four and that's what four year olds do. Anyone with a four year old or has had a four year old can attest to that, right mark Um. Secondly, the best thing that we can do, in my opinion, is we've gotten through

the worst of our fighting. We've grown a lot in our arguing. We have, you know, we have, so it's only gonna get better. We're only going to get better at pausing and communicating. So the fact that we've were willing to do the work that we have to get to a better place that we are now compared to where we were is the best thing we can do for ourselves and for Jolie and for Jason, because what Jolie is gonna end up remembering isn't the previous four years.

It's gonna be what she sees from now on. Those memories are gonna trump anything. But will she remember you being gone for four months? Will she remember, you know, the me crying with her in my arm? Like, well, do she remember those things? Like that's what I'm Will

she remember when I threw that thing at you? Or you know it's that's that's where my I'm just like feeling because I trust me as much pain and shame as I feel around going seventy days without seeing her, I like, I would like to think that when she was six to seven eight months old, she's not going

to remember me not being there. But since baby, they sense it, Like that's just like sure they can sense, but also it depends on what they have from that moment on, they can sense it, and if it continues that way, then they'll definitely be more likely to remember m. But when Jolie only only knows from like this age, when she's really becoming influenced and impressioned by how we are, like, she's going to remember more of how we handle things now.

Just take so much pride in being and being a good mom and not I know I'm going to do things wrong, but that I can impact them in a negative way with my actions make me just That's where I just crumble, as you heard, because I just I'm so I just want to be so cautious and conscience, have conscience, Jesus conscious of that because I don't want her to. I just just to know that it could be my fault that she's going to have some emotional issues because she saw me screaming and us you yelling.

And but just like I haven't mentioned Susan that Susan agreed invalidated is regardless, Like there's no perfect parent. We know that there we're gonna there's gonna be something that we could easily turn into being our fault. When they get older, they go Jolie is in a teenager in line a bit more. Oh that's all my fault, because I all he did was lie for a long time

in my life. No, it's not that, it's it's what she's saying is coming to them, not from a dictator authoritative place all the time being like pointing the finger you're grounded, but coming to them and having a discussion around it, Hey, why do you feel the need to lie, and and creating that safe place that she was talking about that you and I have talked about, to create a safe place for them to come and discuss those feelings and their reasonings behind behaviors. Mark, have you ever

fought in front of your kids with your wife? Yeah? Yeah, And actually you know, Um, I did read something once that I take salace in that when kids see you fight in front of your kids, see their parents fight, and then later or even the next day, see them hugging and kissing and everything's fine, It teaches them conflict resolution.

It teaches them, like you kind of broached this up with with Dr Stiffleman, the idea that if they never see you fight and then they're in a relationship one day and they get in a fight, they're gonna think this is it, this is over, this is a disaster. But if they see that fights can be resolved and then fights aren't really that big of a deal, they'll

handle it better when they disagree with future partners. So I think there is something to that, And of course I'm justifying that because yeah, we've done that before, and that helps me sleep better at night. And to Mike's point, you know, four year olds act out. That's why they called the fffing four us, right, that's what every parent says about when your kids four years old. That's what they do. They act out. But also Lexi's like she

was saying, kids are so resilient. And I when I was going through a really hard time where I was traveling constantly and really having a hard time being away from the kids, I was talking to my mom and she says, well, your dad left for he was in the army, and so he would leave for training for like three weeks a year. He'd go away for three weeks once a year. And I said, really, I have

absolutely no recollection of that ever happening. She said, really, every February he'd be gone for three Yep, don't remember that at all. So that made me feel better that they're not gonna remember me going to for three weeks. You know, that's just barely gonna be a blip on

their radar. That's yeah, that's true. I barely. My dad did shift work all grown up, and he also was part of what I don't remember what they called it, but basically in the fire department where anytime there's like a big travesty at another country, he would be part of a crew that would go over there and help and everything like that. So he would be gone for weeks. And I remember him doing that, but I don't see I don't remember. I don't I don't remember my parents leaving.

But what I remember, starting at age five, was my parents fighting and being scared of my dad and being scared of of the that fighting, which is why I'm trying so hard to make sure that we're not arguing in front of Uli, which again we haven't even with this last incident, Like we didn't like nothing, no argument at all. It was all in the bedroom, um, which I think we did a good job with that. But

that's why I'm so careful and scared. Now that she's four, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's one more year until I remember things. And then I start putting all this pressure on myself, like oh crap, Like okay, we have to make sure that we really lock it up. To your point, you start remembering at whatever age you did, but things never changed between your mom and dad. That's

my whole point. They never changed, they only got worse. Really. Yeah, so we have we have the gift of doing this work earlier in our kids upbringing that they don't have to be, you know, witness to that. It's so hard. Parents out there, Give yourself some grace. It's gonna be okay. Yeah, and email us and let us know that we're normal. Please. Um, I think that's a show, right, guys, That is a show. See you guys next week.