Holding it Together

get better at it? But it's interesting. It's just yeah, it's an overall interesting topic because I had posted that thing on social media kind of like talking about you know how it can be hard at times and fights happen and they stink, but you know, I sometimes take photos to remember that even though in the that moment it feels like the end of the world, it's not

really like once you get out of it. Um. But it's interesting because so many people have them to me and said, like if you're so unhappy, like why like why stay in your relationship? And I'm like, it has nothing to do with an happiness, Like I may look unhappy at times, like you know, because maybe we're fighting or but it's not a general unhappiness general unhappiness. Does

that make sense? Like I think if it's every day and more times than not than yeah, Like I think you need to look in, you need to look inside and be like, am I really happy? Like is this

relations serving relationships? Serving me? Am I? My best version right now, you know, is it is this a constant thing, but I think so many times, you know, when we have arguments or disagreements, that it can it can feel like the end of the world, and it can feel you know, for for most of just like for me or you know, it's very like I think it's one

or the other. Um, but I don't think it's a like I don't think I'm unhappy, you know, well, like I know I'm not unhappy, no, but I mean I know no, but I mean, you know, like I've I've written down because at times like it does feel like this is too hard and we fight and this and that, so you know, you start, I started writing down and that's been like a helpful tool for me because it's like, okay, it's not every day. Has it been a little bit

more consistent lately, Yeah, And I don't like that. But if that continues on like that for the entire year, and then that's when you go, okay, like maybe my maybe I am more times than not unhappy, but that's not the reality in this moment, Like more times than now, I'm happy, We're happy, We're good, you know, I think with Canada in the movie and you know some it was a little bit more frequent, but and then I think if that stays that way, then that's when you

have to, yeah, maybe evaluate your relationship. But that's not But it's also like seasons, like people go through things and you have to kind of look at it is like is this all the time or is this just a few times? Because I think a few times is normal.

Just like the book, like everyone fights, Like everyone has fights and disagreements and underlying you know, um resentments or like it's just about how to fight better and like you know, we talked about in our book, like the good fights about fighting for each other, not against each other. But I just like, I don't know. That kind of just kind of struck me where because I'm like, like, if you're so unhappy? I was like, where did I

say I was unhappy? Like I know sometimes like we may be sad, but it's aren't we all unhappy at times? It just me, no, everybody is, And I think, you know there's there's levels of this in our situation, you know too, right, It's uh for some relationships that don't have a traumatic history like we do, you know, their fights might not carry as much weight because of there there might not be past triggers and a bigger pain

that comes up underneath of something. So I think I think that's a big part of it for for our situation, where you know, small fights can turn into something bigger because of the things that we've been through in our relationship. And then I also think it's a personality thing too. I think some people are just more inclined to, you know, uh, have that feeling, not that it's negative or positive, just

some people are just kind of that way. And You're You've been more of one of those people to kind of be that way of where it just feels like

the way to the world at times. And I think that is because of our past, because I'm like, I don't want to have to like struggle all the time, you know what I mean, Like I don't want it to be like this heavy, and it shouldn't be, you know, but unfortunately with our past, it's like we're way better than we were for sure, but it's like sometimes just like you know, I don't want to like be I don't want this to always feel so heavy when we just have a simple argument, you know, um, And I

think that's like you said, it's just our situations a little bit, you know, walking through that, and but I mean, obviously we're like way better than it used to be. But I think just the underlying question of it all is this, you know. I think you can look at your relationship and no, and I was just talking to a girlfriend about this today on a walk. It's you have to kind of just almost yeah, like righte it out and be like because in the moment it feels

so like I'm so unhappy. Well, yeah, I'm unhappy right now because either I'm not getting one of my needs met or you're not getting one of your needs met. But that doesn't mean like throw the towel and this is over and it's terrible that we're fighting. It's like, no, okay, someone's needs aren't getting met. Let's communicate and grow together and get stronger. Now. The problem we're unhappiness, I think becomes a thing is when there's just no love left

to continue to fight together. I mean that's what I say, Like, apathy is the killer. As soon as someone's apathetic and just doesn't give it anymore, that's when, you know. And I think it's interesting too, because you know that book, um that we had been reading and we're going to get back into now that we're back from Canada. Um the vertical marriage with David Ann Wilson, that we're going to try to have them on here in the near future.

But in that book it says something that you and I related to where she was talking about there talking about a situation and how Anne was saying she didn't feel chosen um and it's the smallest thing, and todave to the man, he was just like, well, you said yes to me on our wedding day. That's like enough for me, you know. So I know that's kind of how I feel at times. It's easier for me to be optimistic, not only from our past right because on the perpetrator, so obviously I just want to think of

the positive. And then I think too, It's just something in me as a man where I'm just like I'm and and being so reminded to I'm like, I'm committed to you. I'm committed to our marriage and making it work. We're gonna have good days, bad days, good faces, bad phaces, but I'm in it like I'm in it for life. And granted, yeah, I mean we have to grow and fight for each other and do other things in between. I don't mean to make it sounds simplistic um because

it's not easy. Simple. It's a simple simple in theory, but it's not easy. But it's just, you know, I don't know. People are different handled things, different situations, and I totally understand, like how at times you feel your weight than maybe I do, meaning p because of your personality,

because of the trauma that I've put you through. It being easy, it being more understandable for you to have that mindset of like in this moment, I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, Like it's harder for you to see that than me, is what

I'm saying, You know what I mean. So I'm sure a lot of relationships are like that, even if there isn't a traumatic thing, just based on their personality, it might be easier for one or simpler for one to see the light at the end of the of that tunnel of that fight than the other person, which I think is important because if both people are just what's the point why I can't do this, then you're just

gonna You're not gonna get anywhere, you know. So, yeah, I mean, that's it's a bummer that people would just I can understand why people would see your posts and just make up that you're saying you're not happy. Yeah, because I was like nowhere, I never said anywhere that I wasn't happy. I said, you know, it's you said I think I'm happy. No, I said, you know, it's people fight. No relationship is perfect, even though it looks

like it on Instagram, you know. And yeah, someone noticed that we weren't sleeping in the same bed and Canada. It's like, Okay, this is doesn't mean that we're unhappy. It's just we have things that, like any other relationship, that we need to continue to grow and get better

at and communicate better. And you know, listen to what we talked about in our own book, and but there's nothing that's Yeah, it's just it's like, because everybody does fight, and some are just a little heavier and maybe wigh

a little bit deeper. But a fight is a fight, and you know, yeah, and my thing is like you know what I tell you a lot of times when we're back on the men, like after a rough patches, like there's no one else in this world I'd rather go through this within you, right, like go your life together, and that's like the end of the day, that's my thing. It's like it's gonna be the same if it's with somebody else, you know. But so I'd rather just I would rather do it with you because I love you

and I want to do it with you. Well, And that's kind of like what my girlfriend never saying, Like if the love is still there and two people, like we even talked about in our book, like two people are willing to work and fight at it, like then you can continue to grow. But when the love has gone to that's just that's tough. But yeah, I mean I think you have to figure out what you want for yourself and look at it. Because if if I was unhappy, like I don't want Like I have a

friend who is in a marriage that's not happy. He's not changing, he's not willing to really change, and it's like and I look at her, and I'm like, I don't want to spend you know, I'm gonna be forty in the next few years. I don't want to spend the next forty fighting so hard for this and like how my unhappy to have my happiness be? Um? In in doubt, you know, like I I don't want my kids to see that, Like I want the next sacrifice your happiness. Yeah, I don't want to sacrifice it, and

I don't. I'm like, I don't want to if it's not going in the direction of stronger, healthier, growing, you know, happiness, Like what's the like then I'm like I agree with people that you know, like, then what is the point? Because like, I don't want to spend the next forty miserable and unhappy and being with someone that doesn't want to change, doesn't want to grow, doesn't want to work

on things. But it's like, that's not what's happening. What's happening is we are fighting, and we're learning and we're growing, and we can still be happy and still have fights. And I think that's what's so great about you know, our book, their book. Everyone fights because there's ways to realize that it's okay. Deal with it, listeners and yeah,

we fight, deal with it. Yeah they know they're subscribed. Um, well, let's take a break and get Kim and pen On here and let's talk everything fights and their book and how they work through it. I have friends, How are you guys. I'm Janna and this is my husband Mike. You are I'm him, and this is Pen. Guys. I'm excited to talk to you because last week we talked about some kind of fights that we were having while we were uh essentially re quarantining because we were in

Vancouver for six weeks. Um and I remember getting the breakdown and being like, oh, yes, I cannot wait to talk to you because you have a book it's called Everybody Fights, and you know, someone had asked me It's like, oh, I noticed, like Mike wasn't sleeping in the bed, you know, while a few nights while you were in Canada. And I'm like, look, it's just sometimes we fight, you know what I'm like, And that's okay, But want I just

wanted how long have you guys been married for? We've been married for going to make me do some math here, uh sixteen sixteen years? He cheated sixteen years and we believe you. You don't have that whole rule. I don't go to bed angry. No, we go to bed angry sometimes because and you know, like people have fomo, I have like bombs, like instead of fear of missing out of a fear of missing sleep. So I'd rather get to sleep, sleep well, wake up refreshed, and then we

can hash it out. Wait, but can you just kind of like dropped a bomb though, Like you just said, it's in sixteen years since he cheated, no getting the number? I was. I whispered to her the numbers exclusive. No, I heard it too, and I was like maybe that I'll just keep on going. I hear everything. Sorry about that, Um, but it's it's great as your tag tagline is, why not get better at it? So? How do you guys fight better? Um? The start of it is we talk about the fights. The term that we use in the

book is metic communicating. We take kind of a step back and we Monday morning quarterback, if you will. We kind of talk about it after it's over. Um, we're at the point now where we talk about it while it's going on, because there are a lot of things that happened to your brain and your body during fights that you can't control, and it causes you to do stupid crap all the time. And we've kind of learned

what those things are. And once we see them coming, uh, we take a little bit of a beat, we de escalate and we come back when and our you know what, our nervous system isn't completely haywire well, and I do believe you know how to hurt your partner, Like you know exactly how you can hurt your person, right, you know the very specific ways there achilles healed in which

you can torture them. So don't do it. And we know now how to zoom out that talking about the fight is if you've solved the fight, let's say that, like you have to come to resolution. But if you can zoom out, and that's when we recognize, like any fight that started at ten o'clock at night for me because I go to bed early because I wake up super early, that's not going to end well. So we just don't do it. Like so if something comes up at night, I'm like, you know what, we're going to

work this out tomorrow. If that means he sleeps in the guest room, like we do that too, Like we've done times. Um, we know that after a couple of glasses of wine, nothing is going to get solved, So we don't do that. So now we just don't engage like we have these like peacetime conversations or wartime conversations. I mean, I think sometimes we do still engage. We just have to we when we once we realize we're engaging, we're like, Okay, we gotta do this some of the time.

So I mean you talked about sleeping in separate rooms on that trip. That happens sometimes, and it's I think that's better than fighting when you're tired and drunk and hungry, hungry, Yeah, all the above. How long have you guys been together? Sixteen years? At what point in your marriage and relationship were you like, Okay, we need to start doing this different. We went to counseling, we started, I think it was really when we started working together, so about two thousand,

thirteen and fourteen something like that. And I think our marriage was fine. Our marriage was good. We weren't calling the divorce lawyer. Um, it was fine, you know what I mean, but we knew it could have been better. And then we kind of like poor gasoline on the fire, we started working together. So when you are in each other's faces all day, raising kids together, living together, and trying to be married to each other, it was we

didn't have boundaries. We like we like work just kind of steamrolled all the way into the night and in the morning and then make it worse. I mean, Michael, I I don't know. Uh, maybe locker room talk was different when you were in the NFL and it is when you go home. My job before Kim, I wasn't in a locker room. I was in a newsroom. And I'm telling you it might be more foul and abrasive than an NFL locker the way that people talk in newsrooms. And I just thought that was how people talked when

they work. I had done that for fifteen years and then I went to work with Kim and she called me on it and she's like, you're talking to me like b I mean, not like I mean. It was a lot of it was a lot of it was kind of stuff I picked up from my dad and also people in the newsroom, like a lot of passive aggressiveness and just I'm looking back on myself, I'm not proud, but that was one of the that was like one of the early stressors was I talked down to her

and I talked abrasively to her. And I never knew that part of him because as a husband, he was he was great, Like it was fine, but then that kind of that work self displayed. Well, Melanie and I talked to each other like that all the time his work life, so like we talked to each other that way, and then that was kind of how it started. Yeah, I know, I can kind of relate to on that thing, because like one of our big fights that we got into in Canada was he brought up a work idea.

And when we talk work, I'm he's I don't remember him as my husband or my friend. I go into business mode, I go into Chris Jenner. I'm like, well, I don't know, like I think, like, you know, we should only do this many amounts and like and I just go and I don't think about feelings. I'm nice, but I just like I'm very direct with my like my words. And he takes it as because he'll get upset if I say, like, hey, where are you going?

If I don't put like where are you going babe, like a softer tone or even though I mean no malicious nous or what are you doing? I'm doing work? Well what kind of work? But like he gets so like annoyed. So it's like I have to always like sugarcoat it a little bit. And when I'm talking about work. It's very hard for me to sugarcoat work. And so it was something where it's like I have to like remember in those conversations, like, oh, I'm yes, he's still

my work partner, but he's also my husband. I need to be a little softer with like my my tone, I guess, and I have to be like I have to throw in a baby here, like a baby, a little baby, little honey. So I feel that, and I feel like we've had that issue before in in that sometimes like a lot of the ideas for silly videos will come out of my head and then pen does the magic and goes into the magic song room and

make a song about it or something like that. But sometimes I'll say stuff and he's just not listening, and then when another person says it, it's a brilliant idea, so it's that same. And then or I'll have an idea and we call it like duck hunting or whatever, what a clay pigeon or whatever you like, and just shoot it out of the sky. And so I'll have I'll have an idea and he'll just do the same thing. But we had we actually wrote about it in the

book one thing. I put it like this big scary idea that I wanted to, like we wrote about in the book. Because I had this big scary idea, I felt like, we should write a Broadway musical. By the way, it takes like twenty years to get a musical on Broadway. It is the most like scariest, weirdest thing ever. Right, And so you say that loud, and you say it to your partner and then so his his his business

hat goes on right just like you were talking. And his response was, is that the best use of your time? And I was like, now, I didn't say that mean now, I would just be like, I just think there's I wouldn't say like, because that's that's what I would love to say. But I've learned, like, and so I'm better than pen he learned. And then I didn't handle it well because I got out of a moving car and walked home. Um, and so I didn't handle that well.

But literally, like we took that fight to our counselor and like we we talked about that way. So we've both learned a lot. We learned a lot from counseling, We learned a lot from writing this book. So, yeah, being married, have you ever had something where you're just like, I just don't know if like I can continue on this journey where it's just it's it's just too hard, or it's just there's you just don't cease anything changing and you feel like you're just like beating your head

up against the wall. Or is that just normal marriage feelings and thoughts. I've had those micro feelings, um, And by that, I mean like, while I'm in the thick of an argument where I realized that I'm just not getting anywhere and we're going in the same space. There's this sort of grief and hopelessness that comes with that, And I'm I feel very lucky to say that it's never lasted more than a few moments, um, but I

know that that does happen. Yeah, And my my parents got divorced, and they were they were separated and back together and separating back together before they got divorced, like my entire childhood. So I learned. And one of the things we we learned about each other's like our fighting styles and mine was what I saw modeled right, which was you just leave. So when Penn said, is that the best use super time which is not what he meant, and it just came out really abrasively instead of engaging.

I literally got out of a moving car and left. And so the beginning and up until we went to therapy, my instinct was, he says something that I don't agree with, I feel I feel belittled, I feel stupid, and I leave. And so that is my instinct. So my instinct is to leave, and it works on me because my biggest fear and my the thing that hurts me the most is being alone or or more simply just people not liking me, like I'm one of those guys that needs

everybody to like him. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna call it like it is, and and so so you know, that's that's where some of the hopelessness comes from. And what we're learning through a lot of this is I still believe that was not the best use of her time. I'll take that she was doing like a billion things. We can talk about this now because we've deescalated from the fight. She even admits she like had she had taken on a lot of things, and the inside in my head was like, oh my god, she's taking on

something else. We can't do any more of this. I'm not getting asleep as it is. We're doing a thousand things. But you should never answer a question that way, in a demeaning way, and project back on that person that's invalidating their feelings. You should say back, I hear you, I hear what you're saying. Here's what I feel. I didn't do any of those things. I just I just kind of, you know, put the shotgun out and shot

it down. So if I could have gotten my opinion across, and we would have been fine if I just found the right way to come. But to answer your question, like, are were there moments? There were There's never been a moment personally, and I think Kendall say the same, where we were on the brink of not making it. But are there moments and flashes where all of my personal history comes up and I think, you know what, I'm packing the kids up and I'm heading out of town.

Like I've had plenty of those moments because that's my instinct. So we've learned, Like, so now I have to do the work and sit in my butt in the chair and take the rest, and I have to sit there and I have to engage because that's what's hard for me. And then his like he used to just like i'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, anything, to just de escalate anything. It's so hard. So now he has to sit his butt in the chair and say no, that hurt my feelings.

Like when you left me, that hurt my feelings. So we have to show up in different ways. But it was all about learning how our fighting styles. How about when it came to working together. Obviously you guys do a million things together, but when it came to the book and you guys are sitting down starting, it's like, okay, we're going to write a book. Let's do this. How was that process for you and with your working styles? Because I know for us we worked completely different, So

it was a challenge to figure out that kind of dance. Right, how is that for you guys? Well, Kim was already very up for self help, self improvement, self advancement. I've read every book. I've read every Yeah, I've read them all. I don't I do not read those books. I'm sorry, Like I had to read them a ton during research for this book. But I mean we had to get over the initial hump, which was. I felt like everything was pretty good. I felt like we were doing okay,

like we were getting passing grades. Kim thought that we could be better. I thought that that meant that she was saying that she didn't like our marriage and that this whole thing was a failure. Um, she had to reassure me of that. And then really we had to kind of find a really trusted person to come in and start talking to us. The guy who helped write

the book with us. He's our church pastor, but he's also been a friend of mine for twenty years and he I mean, the process became very easy when he came in because he broke it down for me two data points and ones and zeros and things that you can and things that you can't do and what goes on in your brain the way that I can understand it. Yeah, And so let's be clear, he's the person that he specializes in like marriage counseling, a marriage care and he's

the person that we went to. So we basically took the ten fights and it worked best with like the ten fights. And we think everybody has which is like we're having enough sex. I do everything, you do nothing, you're spending too much money like those those ten fight topics. And then we it became simpler. That's all we do about. It became simpler when we figured out, like I'm going to write my part, he writes his part, and then an editor kind of cut cuts and past they reached it,

and then Christopher says stuff, and then we do research. Yeah, and then we did a bunch of research. I'm so excited to read this. It's I feel like it's just comfortable right into place for us. Yeah, too, we had

fun and in audible you'll like that one too. I feel like it's similar where we have because we wrote a book as well where we kind of share both of our sides, and you know, I feel like it's it's it's just it's good that these books are coming out because I like when people couples share their experiences from both sides, because it's both sides need to be heard.

And I think that's where and even relationships, why we escalate is because we're just wanting to be heard, you know, and from wanting to be heard, we just escalate to the you know, the worst degree. That's right, And I wonder I'm curious if you guys had a similar response that I did. Maybe one of you did or both of you did. I uh, we're public figures were on

the internet all the time we wrote the book. Um, we put the pen down to paper and it felt okay, and then I had to read the audible version of it and some of the stuff was really deep. It was like, I was so uncomfortable. The first time I had to say that was like you're reading a diary entreat. I'm like this about our sex life and now people, my mom's going to hear this. Once I got over it,

it was tough. The first time, it was crazy. It was Yeah, we had the at least I know, I had the same experience where we're sitting there in the studio kind of like this and we're sitting there reading it like back and forth our parts, and I'll just kind of step back, like do we are we sure we really want to do this? Like the stuff that we're saying right now, like is this going to be received the way we hope it's going to be received?

Because it's I mean, but it's good that, like Jenna say, it's like so many books before you know, some of these, like you guys are putting out. It's from one person on who's a clinical professional, who you know, acts like they have it all figured out and this is the

steps to do it. But then you know they haven't gone through them themselves maybe, And so to hear from somebody like you, guys, I know, for us, it's gonna be refreshing to hear y'all's words, be like, man, we're not alone either, yeah, And don't you feel like you know, when you're dating somebody, like you can talk to your girlfriends about like, oh, we got in a fight and every you know, and you can talk about that, But as soon as you're married, there's this like veil of secrecy,

like we no longer talk about our relationships with people really. And then it was only when we kind of told our circle of friends we were doing the research for this book and we were writing this book that people can fide in us about a lot of the issues they were having and they were asking us for advice, and I was like, guys, we should be talking about this, and let's normalize the fact that no marriage is perfect, no relationship is perfect. A good marriage can become a

great marriage. And really, there are some really easy communication hacks that we've put into place. So how can a good marriage become a great marriage? I mean it's communication based, at least in our book it is. I mean, fights are all about going back and forth. The cliffs notes of it is. We have these scripts, and we have these magic words you can say when you're in the middle of a of an argument. Could you give us

right now? Yeah? Sure, um, you just that you kind of almost did do when they're tell me more is one of the best ones that you can do when someone's finished talking, instead of turning it around and disagreeing with it, make an effort to try to understand it better and say tell me more. So even said when I had said, Penn, I think we should read a

Broadway musical. If Penn and said tell me more, and I'm like, I'm really just you know, yearning for creative outlet right now, I feel really bogged down with this, this this. If you had followed up with tell me more about that, if you just let me spiral and talk that that wasn't even a fight, right, Oh my god,

that would have helped us so much. When we were in Vancouver because I was overwhelmed with work, like had been filming a movie for you know, three and a half weeks, and I was like, Mike, I I'm feeling like claustrophobic. I don't I don't want to go home yet, like I feel like I haven't had it. I need to have fun. I need to decompress before I go back home to Nashville. And I'm back in mom work mode. And he's like, if you would have said tell me more, I would have I would have felt so heard and

just like you care. And if I would have said tell me more about your gun business you wanted to do instead of being like that's what you want to do right now? Like yeah, like are you trying? It's the best easy of your time, said Penn, But really,

what Jenna want. I'm gonna start hearing Penn's voice now every time, like I know you want to say that Pen's voice, but also simple to say, like tell me more, because you don't have to agree with it, understand it, but you to be like I would love to hear like tell me more, man, I'm interested, and then repeat back what what he's saying. It's like, okay, so what I hear you say is you're really interested in starting this business, Okay, and then so you just like repeat

back and it doesn't commit you to an answer. But I think you had pointed this out in the beginning, is that we are all here in this partnership just to be seen. And my job in this part ownership is just to be a witness to his life story. My job is to be his pr person. My job is to be his hype man. Right. He does not complete me, I do not complete him. But we are partners. We are jumping off this cliff together and holding hands.

And if we can't show up for each other in that way and he can't see me, and if I can't really see him, and what are we doing? Right? And so that's why our marriage was fine. Our marriage was fine. We did carpool, we would get in a fight, we would laugh at a TV show, we'd have sex. We were and it was fine. But like to really have those great those great moments of connection, um, those

really just weren't even happening. So that's why I just when I went that I'm a very um, I just recently learned I'm in any Graham type one and that means I'm a perfectionists allegedly. I know, right, I'm not. I'm not a type plan. I'm a I'm a what a positives? My ever a Blone Retriever job would be, I'm a futuristic positives. He's like a messy, happy person. And so when I went into this counseling, I had a notebook. I'm like, just tell me exactly what to say.

Tell me what to say when he comes at me with this, or tell me what to say when I'm feeling because I have anxiety and depression, like when I'm spiraling and he doesn't understand me. That tell me the words to say. And then that's exactly just like what we wrote in our book at the end of the chapters were like, shortcut, just say this because there are times when I'm like, you're saying claustrophobic. That's what anxiety feels like to me. It feels like somebody standing on

my chest and I have trouble breathing. And how do I explain that to somebody who's like a Golden Retriever, right, Like he's experience that in his whole life. But then but through this he's been able to see and hear me and knows now exactly what I need in those moments, and then you know, and then I can help him through his I love tell me more where I'm definitely gonna take that. Do it. I've got some more for you if you want to. Here's another one. If you

want something and this includes sex, this includes anything. If you want something, tell the person what you want and and say because after whatever it is that you want, say because it's like scientifically proven if you give a reason for what you want, you're more likely to. Yeah.

The other the other thing you can do to go even further is Kim can say why, and you can say because it can and then she can say why and you can say because again and after the third because you're really getting to the heart of the matter at that point. Yeah, like I really I've been working so hard and this movie, I really feel the need

to relax and online. But we did that and there was a no. Well, and then he's well, and you said, because I feel like we need to connect before we just jump back into our lives as parents, as working people, and then he said no, and then what happens and then and then you say I and feel I feel because you keep going this until you understand each other. That one might be a little harder because I feel like I am semi direct with my words better. I used to be super passive, and I feel like now

I'm more on train or on track of being direct. Yeah. It's kind of a motto in our marriage is like mature people ask for what they want. I used to just like he's like, what do you want for lunch? And like I don't care, just get me whatever? Like no, just mature people, Like, yeah, mature people need more pen. There's a bunch, um there is h This one takes

a little bit of explaining. Um, we have a we have a code that we say called secret contract and it basically means, okay, so you guys have secret contracts. If you've been married, if you've been together for a week, you start building these things. They're unspoken things that you do that you just do. Kim just changes the toilet paper, always changed. She does the cooking, I do the dishes. She wakes the kids up, I take him to school

because she doesn't want to put a brawl on. Um I uh yeah, I put the dogs to sleep, she lets me sleep in. Most of these are really good contracts, but every once in a while, there's something that you have been kind of tasked with doing that deep down you hate, and that will bubble up into in Kim's case, like a giant um week long strike against toilet paper that she took to Instagram on and like publicly shamed

her husband about not changing for a week. We there was no toilet paper in the bathroom and he continued to use it. No, no, because there was a clean X box underneath the sink, and clean X if you like, let it sit in the toilet for a little while. It won't call it the toilet, and it's a hundred times softer and better than toilet. Ever, I'm just saying that out loud if some might call your genius. But

then it's so secret. Contracts were great if they work for you, right, But I was very presentable because I did all the house where his secret contract the role he plays, he has the Golden retreat for in our marriage. Right, So he's the he's the hype man, he's the cheerleader,

he's the fun guy. But what happens when he goes through some stuff and he needs to be sad, Like he always feels like he has to be happy, and so I just if I know he's going through stuff, like he's gone through some stuff with his parents, I'll just say a secret contract. I got this. You can be sad now I can. I got this. And if kims head anxiety and she's been up all night, she'll she'll, you know, she'll kind of rub my shoulder at about seven o'clock and say, secret contract, I need you to

take the kids. And it's it's one of those situations where you know, as soon as she says that I do this all the time, it's okay, but for now I'd like to change it. Um so's Yeah, it's just kind of like the roles like we've talked about. Yeah, it's just and we defined talk about we never had the discussion that I was always going to be the person who would change the toilet paper. I never already decided that. It was just it just happened, you know.

I think it's I think that's a really important one, because you start to have resentment if you if those roles aren't if it's actually something you don't want to be doing. It's like laundry for her, she always just kind of happens to do it. Like the kids laundry, and we never decided, but I think that's the one you hold resentment. It's just acknowledgement sometimes, you know, just the I'm obviously my mom. I'm it's fine, it's part

of one of my duties. But it's like, you know, we usually we discuss like you're the cook, I'm the cleaner. You know, it's just the right I mean, you know, really what we don't want to discuss. It just kind of well like we do when am I going to cook? I don't cook right because I'm a better cook and it works. So that's a super contract that works, right. Yeah, you keep people fed and then you clean and then yeah, um, where can our listeners find all of this stuff? Like

you guys on Instagram? Obviously? The book are on the on the social media's we are the Holderness family, um and kind likes to say it's like wilderness but with a hoe. So I see you guys, Oh cute follow back, I love you, um. And then this is Everybody Fights book dot com and yeah, um, I'm super excited to deep dive right now into your Instagram because the first thing I see is how I really feel. I'm like, oh, I cannot wait. Um, it's basically me because I'm an

introvert to quarantine. Actually wasn't terrible for me, and I just want to spit in my pajamas all day long. Um, it's basically how I really feel. We're getting vaccinated. I'm like, I have to go out in public. I'm kind of cool just staying here, guys, because you guys are in rally, right, Yeah, okay, Well, whenever you guys come to Nashville, let us know. We love Nashville. Isn't that where the book people are. Yeah, there's a lot of publishing in Nashville. Right, So come

and we're open. Come on, We're gonna vaccinated soon. Hang on, almost, I have to ask this question. So you were in Vancouver. I'm putting some pieces together. You were in Vancouver shooting over the winter. That's usually like Hallmark movies, right, and it's even better. We so we did like a bunch of parodies of Hallmark and Lifetime Christmas movies in December. Yes, and the reasons here's the reason why we so like

quarantine and COVID. Particularly on my girls, they got really bummed out when Christmas time came around, and so they binge watched all these amazing movies. Sorry, amazing Christmas. I love them. Amazing plots. I want to stories. I don't want to be surprised. I want to know exactly how it's going to end. Beautiful girl meets handsome guy. Yeah yeah, big city girl. There's a festival in her home. There's

a festival where there's a tree lighting. Is what I wanted in all twenty seven the same plot twist me I don't make don't make it a murder mystery. None of that actually, so another one of the ideas I threw out. I'm like, I want to write one of those, like I don't have so please please do. But everything I'm right, I want to make it a musical obviously, but everything I'm writing is like, there's only one storyline.

I can't even get creative with it. I have plenty of time, like Pen says, you can plenty of time, lots of time, lots of free sime. Well, we can't wait to watch it. Um, you guys are so sweet. Seriously come visit. Thank you for coming on wine Down And I'm excited to read your guys book because everyone does fight so especially yes Pen Kim thank you guys so much. We appreciate your time. We love to have you guys back on to thank you, Thank you guys.

You know, as much as we've gotten validated through our book and people responding to it and just saying how much they appreciate it and can relate, I love talking to people like Kim and Penn and just hearing their stories being like, man, we're not the only ones, you know, yeah,

and it just it feels it feels good. I mean, even like when we talk to people like Liza and having those conversations and reading you know, other books of other couples that we look up to that it's like, oh, they have crossroads and they have fights and they have arguments, but yet they're still in love and they're still happy to like, I don't know, I like that. Do we have any emails? We do have some emails. Interesting, all right,

This is from Alexandra. My best friend's husband has become an alcoholic and isn't asked to her more and more frequently. They have a year and a half old son, and she has settled down stopped drinking during pregnancy, and he didn't. Unfortunately, his problem seems to be getting worse. Oh, he's not physically abusive. I fear from my friend and my godson that he might become that. Their parents all want her to leave him and get a divorce. She's not ready

to make that decision yet. As a friend, how do I support her? And what advice can I give her? I mean, I guess this kind of goes with what we've been talking about, is there's relationships that can work, and then there's the relationships where someone is just an active addiction and that person is wanting and that person

is wanting to not believe it. Maybe they're an active addiction and fight through it, but it's just that's so hard because you're not going to get anywhere if like if if you were like acting out in an active addiction, it's like you can't, I can't hold all those pieces together, Like that'd be impossible. So to support her or I would just say that, I mean, she's gonna want to try, but don't isolate her, but also don't continue to tell

her that she'd be okay alone. Yeah, I would say, you know, in situations like this, no one from the outside is going to be able to make the decision for your friend. So your job as a friend and as godmother to her son is to just ask her questions so she gets to the verdict herself, right, So ask her why, like, what are your reasons for staying? What are your fears around it? What are your fears

about leaving? And have those conversations and allow her to talk through it and have the dialogue with you and for her to realize, Man, the only reasons I am starting staying are X and Y. But the reasons you know I should leave our you know, A through Z. You know, there's a significant more amount of reasons. So just allowing them to figure it out themselves as you kind of help navigate them through these questions and ask the appropriate questions. Is is my biggest advice for what

for what I would do? And if I had a friend in that situation, Yeah, and if f thro P is really bad, you know, but then you get D through D and G and then oh through you know X. You know, I was just shooting from hip on that one, guys, but you get what I'm saying, Alexandra. Just allow her to figure it out for herself as you guide her. I don't know that because C could really be a bummer onto the next email. This is from Alyssa. I will be twenty seven and April. My husband just turned

thirty five. I suffer from Pico's PCOS and am lucky if I have two periods a year. Because we knew this would be difficult for us, we started to try to get pregnant about a month after we were married. We got pregnant off the bat. Then I'm miscarried around six weeks. Since then, we have not been able to get pregnant. We started going to a chain of doctors specialist medications, and I'm afraid we're getting to the point

of I U I and I VF. I feel like my husband isn't as emotional about this as I am. I know he wants children. He just says to trust in God and enjoy the time we have together before children come into the mix. I love that thought process, but I still get sad with bad news. So I wanted to ask Mike, what were your thoughts and feelings as you and Jana were going through treatment. You know, it's tough because as a as a guy, you know, we have our own feelings, but also you know our

feelings only go to a certain depth. Because we don't have as much of the um feeling of responsibility as the female does. So I don't want to say that our feelings are the same as y'all's, because they're not at all. And so when Jana was going through that stuff, all I could do, and what I thought my job was was to just be as positive as I could

without minimizing what she was feeling or the situation. So it's great for your for your husband to stay positive, but he also needs to allow the space for sadness and for you to feel that because if he's just like, don't worry, it's in God's hands and now you don't worry, it's gonna happen. Let's just enjoy the time together. If it's that's good. But if it's that continuously, then he's not really giving you the space to have the feelings

that you need to express. And that's very important. Just from our experience through this UM and having done that a couple of times, it's very important for for the female to have that space and for the male to find that happy dance between optimistic and empathetic. Yeah. Um, well, good show, guys, good show. Um, We've got some good stuff. Coming in the books, coming down the pipeline that we're really pumped about. So you know, that's what we want

to do. Give you guys something entertaining to listen to and to grow as a person. So I appreciate you all listening. La