High Five for the Heart

bit three days ago. Do you know how many times in my marriage that I actually would roll up the stuff and literally put it in a bin in my cupboard so that he wouldn't see it in the trash, far so that he wouldn't blame my rational behavior, because that's the worst the word for them to be like, oh, that's why you're I'm like, no, that's not why, because you did this as why Granted I'm I'm a little more represensitive, yeah for sure, but like that's when they

call that out. Why did they do that? Because their men? That's a good enough reason. It's just annoying, But I don't know why I'm trying to hide it now, Like I'm not nobody to hide it from. But I think it was just I was rushing. I was I wasn't supposed to have the kids had a little change in the schedule, so I was trying to figure stuff out. Luckily the preschool have let us back in. I got an email that the preschool will allow goodness, so I

think I'm gonna bring flowers. Did she for She's like, well, we'll allow it. She basically was like, it's fine if you want to bring him back in Tuesday Thursdays. I was like, wonderful, thank you so much, have a have a blessed day, flowers whatever. I'll figure it out. But and then also, I know we gotta start thinking about menopause already my mom went through. I'm gonna be thirty eight.

I wouldn't mind menopause. Why why don't want my period anymore? Yeah, but like there's like so many other issues that go along with it. I'm gonna get to when I get pulled over apart. But the whole point was, I was just like feeling crampy, and I feel like I feel like I'm pre menopausal because my periods or having said that, I think it's just because I had kids. And it's changed my period. And then that vaccine changed my period. So that's just been like annoying because it's been all

over the freaking place. But um, I just felt like hot, and I'm like they were going through menopause. So I was like texting my mom asking her, like what were her pre menopausal symptoms, because I just because my periods have just been so weird. So like, into my car, I had to change around the schedule to get the kids, and I'm on my phone texting my mom about menopause. And then like then, I'm like I'm old and I'm

washed up. I see this cop right in front of me and I don't even stop, like there was a stop sign, and I just like rolled right through it. I'm on my phone, but it was like I saw him after I rolled through it. You know. It was like one of those where it's like I thought, I thought you just rolled No. No, I like went right through it. Okay, I'm just trying to help you out. Yeah, because I was talking about menopause to my mom because I was like massively on my period and freaking out

and it was weird. And so then he started following me and I was like, I might as well just put my linker on and just I'm just literally and I pretty much did. Like at the same I saw that there was a subdivision coming up, so I was like, he's gonna pull me over. I feel it like he's right on my tail. He's looking up my license plate right now, see if I'm a felon. And then in my head this is I'm like, what do I do?

Do I play the menopause card? I just wanted and I was like, I'm only thirty eight years old, actual idea or I'm bleeding and so I don't know or um. So this all went through my head and then I was like I don't even know wh my registration card is or like I have no like all and I'm like, well, I don't have cream around my thing, and it's like, what is it going to show up cream around there? Because my license anyways, So then about the same time I put my blinker on, the lights go on and

I'm like, oh, there of ever. So I pulled into this neighborhood pre menopausal and just bleeding just defeated. I rolled on my window and I was like, I know I was on my phone and I rolled through it. You can just give me a ticket, and he kind of like laughed, and I was like, I'm sorry, like and normally and I just I was texting a friend and I was like, I just got pulled over. And he was like, are you apologizing profusely and just being so nice? And I was like, actually no, I was like,

I did it. Arrest me, officer like just handcuffs. No, arrest me to take me to jail, give me deal with the rest. Take me to jail. You think that might be kind. I'm the thing of my kids. Figure it out, you know what, you figure out my life for me. It's fine, but can I have a tampon? Please? It's not going to be pretty in jail. But he kind of like laughed at me because I don't think he was expecting me to be like, yeah, no, I know.

I was totally on my phone and I I went through the thing, and you can give me a ticket. It's fine. I don't know where my registration is, give me a second. And he kind of laughing, kind of chuckled, and he was he was like an older he's probably in his fifties. He probably has a menopausal wife. Prob he recognized the scientists. I'm gonna let this one goal. He did. You can see like the sweat he knows, like I'm having a hot flash, sir, please just let me.

He's so he came back and he was like, and I know, put the phone down and stop, and he goes pretty much, Oh go, You're awesome, dude. That's funny. And then I called you because you were texting me, So do your symptoms fall in line with pre menopause changes in period? Me? My mom she was thirty four and she went to the doctors because she thought she was having another baby. But like, how do how how

would I date pre menopausele pre menopause or boast? I mean all the above, Like can you imagine being like, Hi, I'm in menopause, I'm super sexy. Let's start there. I don't think it would be any different. No, I just heard that, like megmenopause scares me, and like the fact that we've even are getting onto that level. It's usually like fifty though, right. Do you know what my doctor

asked me the other day. We were talking about like mammograms and colon stuff, colot whatever, and I'm like he's like, we gotta start thinking about that. He's like, but that's like in your fifties, and I was like, oh my god, that's like twelve years away. Well you started mammograms at forty. I know that because you're I just started. Just did my first one. Did they smash your booby? Yeah? Plant pops? Can it pop? It won't pop, but I mean it might feel like it's kind of stop. Yeah, that's fine.

I love doing it. Why did I am like give me all the preventative crap, like test me for everything? I want test for everything, and they won't do it. Probably because of like radiation, Well yeah, probably, I know. I don't know. You like, I don't want cancer, so radiate me to like show me that I don't give me. Um, yeah, no, I don't know. I've always just like, wasn't your mom kind of I mean, I don't know. I don't remember with my mom going through I'm just gonna need to

start doing research. I think the heart flashes and stuff like that, and then obviously like, I mean, yes, there's a lot of negatives to it. But honestly, though a hot flash sounds great, I'm always freezing. Yes, we can turn the air down in your house. Is it really that bad? I mean it's okay right now, but it's usually about sevent and it's roasting. I like a warmhouse. What can I say, warm heart, a warmhouse, warm heart. M I don't think that works. No, you know, I excape. Thanks. Um,

so there was that. That was my morning and UM really excited to get Jace back into school. That's going to be good. He's Um, what age do you think you should bring a kid to therapy? Oh that's a good question. I could see myself putting my twelve year old in therapy. I think it depends. I think it depends on trauma. I think it depends. He seems a little. I know he's having a hard time. That seems a little. I feel like at this age it would just be someone.

I don't know how how that would work at this stage. Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what's transition and what's divorced with him so hard with his age. Yeah. The only time I ever get angry at my ex now is when the kid screams for him. It was Jason, when Jay screams for him because I'm like, I don't want look he's upset like that breaks my heart because you know, my kids are like triggers life. Yeah, so I'm like, God,

I hate you for doing this. Um. That was not nice to say, though, I mean, I think it's only human and I think he would understand that. Um. But I also think that as he gets older, I mean, he's still young, He's not going to keep screaming for his dad. I wouldn't think as he gets older. You know, it worries me too, is other kids, Like what if I start hanging out with some of that has kids, That'll be interesting because like the kids would be attached.

It's like when do you introduce the kids at the kid? That is a big Yeah. I would wait a while because like I mean, of course I would get attached to the kids, but like my kids would get attached to the kids. And I saw like my brother's divorce and play out secondhand with that because it's like they were all and then it's just then they don't see the kids anymore. It's like, well, how unfair is that

for the kids? I think unless you're able to be like absolute adults about it and allow them to still have a relationship. And I feel like I know somebody in that situation, um where they just you know, they were like brothers and sisters for a while, so you kind of have to allow them to still have that relationship if you introduce it. If I would never force it, but if it's something they wanted, because you're ripping something from them, you know. I you know what I started

thinking there day too, is I'm the holidays. I started working on the calendar because I in charge of doing our co parenting calendar. And it's just that I'm like, I don't know, you know, things change weekly daily, yes, with my life, and I'm like, I just I hope that I'm not if I please help me not be sad like I came and talked about during the holidays. Yeah, it'll be hard for you. Yeah, it'll be hard. I can think about. Okay, next topics, give that one some time.

Next topic, Um, what's funny right now in the world? What's funny? Talking my kids? I just get upset. I know that's me in therapy. Oh, speaking of therapy, Canna say what the other day? Please? That was hilarious, which but I just want to say, though, I need you to affirm yourself that you are making that choice for yourself not anybody else. Oh yes, And honestly, I'm going to be honest. I think this podcast was that a lot to do with it. Talking to cal the other

day a couple weeks ago, like that was that was good? Um, And obviously you're always helpful with that. But yes, I mean I think with me, it's like I'm like, yes, I but I can only push you so far. I can you just like help with You're very helpful with yeah. Um. Which I've seen a therapist before, years ago. It's been a long time. So I decided that I was going to call a therapist and sit down, you know whatever. Um. So I asked Janna for hers, which we had talked

to her on the podcast before. Um, Amy Alexander over at a refuge center in Nashville or Franklin. They're incredible. Yes. So loved her, loved talking to her that day. So I was like, I'll reach out to Amy. So I amail Amy and I'm like new client and I'm like, hey, it's Katherine, you know blah blah blah. Um, I would love if you have time to sit down with you blah blah blah. And she was like, um, do you

have time today? For a quick five minute call, and I was like, she's not gonna take me, Like what do I need to say to make sure that she takes me? Janna blah blah blah. So she calls me and she's like, what would you say your main concern is? And then I go into like, well, you know whatever, my main concern um and then she's like, would you like to share your main concern or no? Sure? I mean, I like, of course, this is a five minute phone call.

And I'm like, well, let's see, like I've been married for fourteen years, we have wraps and downs and then

like I've got family trauma and blah blah blah. Say, I go through the whole and trying to figure out when I'm unhappy in our marriage, like why I'm unhappy, not just like what he's doing wrong or you know, I'm very aware that it's a lot of times is me and me being unhappy and just kind of trying to figure me out more, I guess, and then obviously going back to the childhood traumas and stuff like that.

So I go into the whole spiel and clearly I figure out that's like really not what she wanted and she's like okay. She's like, well, she's like beating around the bush a little bit. But you know, she was like, usually I don't see like family members or good friends of other clients. And I was like, oh no, no, no, no, I'm not coming to talk about Janna. She's great. She's like, okay, as long as that's not part of your concern. I

was like, no, that's pretty funny. I love it. She was just like, you can't come in here and like like Janna, she's just like the worst boss ever. Like and so then I told Janna, I was like, you're gonna know when I go get another therapist, it's because I'm not happy with you. Oh my god, that would be the worst anymore. Oh what am I doing wrong? Wait wait await, but I mean vice versa. You can't talk about me either, but I talk about you all the time, but not in a way of like negative.

I'll just be like, oh, Catherine brought this up to me and she made a really good write or like Catherine noticed this and me and because it's like those again, like you are the one that kind of um sees me or you see me every day, so you're the ones that you hold you pay them, especially hold me accountable. So when you say something to me, then I usually write it down and then bring that to therapy and be like, hey, they brought this up, like why do

I do that right? Or like how how come? Or which I'm sure I'll do that too because you point out all that you know, yeah, like I know, just talk about each other. But no, no, it's just that we just can't say like like you can't be my problem. I can't problem would suck. I feel like we're good though, right, Yeah,

everything's great, everything, everything is fine. But I'm really really proud of you because I think it's I think, if I can speak openly, I feel like you, um, I make up that you think there has to be an issue wrong with the marriage, like Nick cheats or he drinks or he is and for for why, like you might be unhappy, and it's like there, there doesn't need to be a reason, it's just but figuring out why you're unhappy is you know the goal? I guess right

for sure? Well, I think it all goes back to you know, my pa, it's getting divorced and my mom leaving, and they're not being a real reason. But also the mom leaving, So I have this whole and I've always told him. I've told him from the very beginning of our marriage, like I will never stay in a marriage just for the kids, because my parents tried to, Like my mom tried to stay until I was eighteen, but

she ended up leaving a sixteen. And I was like, if you're unhappy, you should have left a long time ago. But I think that trauma. It's like I don't want to be not that we're getting divorced, but like I don't want to be the one to leave or unless I have a reason, I guess well, And unfortunately you have said to me a lot like I mean, like it's not like Mike, like he didn't didn't nicked and cheat, and like Kavine, he doesn't have to cheat for me

to be unhappy. Like there's things and like again, you guys have been married for so long, and I'm so proud that like you're going to figure out like because it might have nothing to do. It might be little

things that like y'all can figure out together. But also fourteen years is a long time, Like you know, those we've had people on and you just might have missed that one season of growing back together, you know, when Pastor cal Had says something that was so helpful because it was like, you know a lot of the time, it's not necessarily like it's something going on in you,

and that's what kind of prompted it. Like I feel that way, Like I don't feel like, I mean, it's a great guy, you know, I mean it's not like but is it? You know, I find myself in these moments when I'm upset with him where I'm ad. I'm just like, I feel like this is more just my feeling. I don't. I don't really honestly feel like there's really something specific he's doing that it's more me. So I just have to kind of is that where the emotion comes from? Then when you going to therapy? Is that

really emotion? Like when you because when you because I you rarely cry, Oh I do in therapy, right, So that's that's where I'm like, what's feel like, Oh, it's either talking about my kids, just like I mean if I talk if I go in therapy and I talk about like how it's going to affect my kids, I mean that makes me cry every time. Um or when I do get because I can be vulnerable. I do not like to be vulnerable, but I can. I just

don't think I was taught to. I think I grew up in a family where you don't talk about feelings, you don't show affection, you don't I don't know how to do that in like a healthy way, and just literally was not shown how to do that. So I just automatically put up a wall. If something happens, wall goes up, you know. Um. But in therapy, I can

be vulnerable. I can talk about it. So that's usually where the emotion will come too, because I'm addressing the things in me that are not like I could be like, well, I know I did this and this was wrong in our marriage, and that will make me upset, you know. So Yeah, and you've suppressed these feelings for probably years and years, so it's like it's all just like bottles.

I don't like to talk about it, Yeah, Or if we start to talk about whatever it is, then I'll usually just it'll just be a blow up because I don't want to talk about it. He's better at talking about things than I am, for sure, But I'm so out of you appreciate that. I'm really proud um. All right, Well, on that note, we have Mel Robbins coming on, who is an incredible emotional UM speaker, motivational, emotional. She was very emotional, No, incredible motivational speaker. She's um. We had

her on last January. It was last January, last January, no mom, January, mom mom before that. Yeah, oh yeah, wow, m yep. So I'm gonna have her on and I've do you remember her five three two one? Remember she was five four three two one? Get up and do like I've used that in since the divorce because there were so many times where I would just like lay there staring at a wall and I'm like, okay, I no joke, have to count myself down to get up,

and it's fascinating how it does work. So I'm gonna bring yourself to her again and um take a break and have her. What up everybody? Hi? How are you? I miss you? Oh? Well, it's so nice to see you. Boy. You've had a hell of a year. Girlfriend, talk about it now right we can? And you know what's so crazy is I referenced that the Momuary back in last January, and I obviously couldn't tell people at the time, what

was going on last January? UM, And I honestly didn't even know the full extent of it until a few months ago. But UM, I just remember I always remembered your words, I always remembered what you said, and it was just I have such a and since that day and since that podcast with you, I've just had such a connection to you in your words, because you're just

so right. Well, I mean, I don't want to be right honestly, I feel like, Um, having talked to so many people, reaching so many people, and also studying and digging so deep into the research around human behavior and habits and all this stuff, and also having like kind of screwed up my own life. I've been on both the receiving end of heartbreak and I've been on the delivering end of it and struggling with childhood drama and

really only fully starting to understand it. They're just patterns of behavior, there are patterns of thinking that trip us all up. And you know, the one thing that I want you to know is that you are really really well known. But I think in in it's important for you to also understand I didn't even know what was going on in your life. Recently until we sat down to UM, you know, do this interview and I and I basically was like, well, let me see what's been

going on since I talked to her last time. And I'm like, oh my god. And so I want you to know that it can feel like the whole world knows everything that's happening, and don't allow yourself to magnify this because I want you to know your friend Mel Robbins didn't have a clue about any of the details

of anything. And so I think understanding that not everybody knows and that life will go on, and don't magnify the stuff that's happening in your life to something bigger than it is, because the stuff that you're going through so many people go through and most people aren't even paying attention. And so I don't want you to feel self conscious. I actually think that your story and the things that you're going through and your willingness to talk about what you will or what you won't UM, it

helps everybody. Well, I mean, thank you for saying that. And I think I think I struggled with UM because you are such like the comeback like you're the comeback relationship. You're the comeback, you know, and like all of that was like, you know, your marriage was about to fall apart. You were depressed, and so I looked at you and I understood the words that you were saying a year and a half ago. But at the same time, I'm like, well if if that, if they can change, then we can.

Well what exactly did I say to you? So let's go there. Um, when you you mentioned something about repeated patterns or something to be to take notice of. Yeah, like, don't listen to what somebody says, watch what they do, and then pattern to see the pattern to continue to repeat. It's kind of like you basically said, he's not gonna

not cheat. Yes, correct, and you were right like you you know, it's and and it was And I think that was so hard because I wanted to look at other people's lives that have made at work and being like, well maybe this is the Maybe now they'll eventually change. Maybe now we can actually do what we say we're doing. Well, I want to ask you a question, Sure, when did

you know that he was going to cheat again? Because my suspicion is that your issue is that you're not listening to yourself and if you look back on the patterns in your life. And I don't even know the patterns in your life, but if you look back on the patterns in your own life, I guarantee you what you will see when you're taking a very hard and honest look as a pattern of behavior. Are you know what is true? And you betray yourself for the sake

of somebody else. And it is probably a pattern that has been going on since you were a little girl. And the reason why I say this is because in my own life, the biggest heartbreaks, the biggest punches in the face, the most horrible things that I've ever had to go through. When I really stop and I take a look at myself, I realized, holy shot, this is a pattern that has been present in my life, typically due to trauma from childhood that life has been trying

to wake me up to. And it's just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger until life hands me a sledgehammer and I finally wake up and pay attention. So, for example, I'm going to share a story, um so I um you know, I think I can remember if we talked about this when I was when I had a conversation with you last time, but we

I shared you know this story is public. When I was in the fourth grade, I was molested and we were on a skeep vacation with a bunch of other families and all the kids were in a bunk room and I woke up, as a fourth grader in the middle of the night. I was dead asleep. I woke up and there was an older kid on top of me. And the fact is, in terms of the span of things that can happen in somebody's life, in terms of sexual abuse, this was really mild. It was a one off.

It was not scary. It was confusing, and I literally disassociated in the moment as this kid was on top of me. And I don't even know how it ended. I just woke up the next morning and I felt that something was wrong, and I felt that I had done something wrong. And then I walked downstairs and my mom is there cooking breakfast with the other moms, and she turns and just says, hi, honey, how to sleep? And I immediately wanted to tell her, but there was this kid right at the corner of my eye. Now,

my mom's amazing. My mom grew up on a cattle farm. She would have taken that spatchel and knocked that kid into next week. Like there was no question how my mother was going to respond to this. I could not predict how he was going to and so in that moment, I betrayed myself and I did not tell the truth. And I did it in order to keep the peace. And what's interesting, and look, here's the thing about human beings.

We are unbelievably designed. There's so much intelligence in our DNA and her body and her soul, in her mind and her spirit, and all of it is amazing. There is one profound, fundamental flaw in human design, and that is when you're a little kid and something happens to you, you do not have the life experience most of us don't have the support system, and you do not have the internal wirling to go, well, this is screwed up. That kid probably did that because somebody's doing it to him.

These adults should be arrested, Like no kid does that. We all go there's something wrong with me, and we stop listening and we silence that wisdom and that intuition, and then for the rest of your life you're like, what happens. In order to heal, you can take a look at where are the patterns that developed in your life where you were just trying to survive the stuff that happened to you as a kid. You're just doing

the best that you could. And for me, the pattern that I can now see is that I was always drawn towards really big personalities, really unpredictable people, because they felt fun and sexy and amazing. And then when I would get close to that person that has a big personality, I would realize, oh, God, like this person is dangerous, they're a narcissist, or they are unpredictable, or through this

or that. And then, just like I was in the fourth grade, worried about somebody's reaction, I would go right into that trauma pattern, but staying silent, I would know that I needed to not be a friend with this person or doing a business with this person, you know, in terms of conducting business that I shouldn't be, you know, having this person in my life in whatever capacity. Like it's over, and like the pattern is as clear as day.

I'm drawn to a certain type of personality because it matches an old pattern, and then I go right into the coping mechanism of allowing stuff to happen and staying silent about it, and then I'm the one that gets hurt. And so the breakthrough for me is in seeing that it's connected to trauma, doing the work to heal my nervous system so I don't get triggered, and being very mindful about the kinds of situations and the people that

I'm around. And so I believe if you are being honest with yourself, there was a moment where you knew in your heart this this guy's gonna cheat again, and I know it, but for the sake of keeping the peace or being the good one or staying silent or whatever, you didn't listen to it. Mhm, No, I mean you're

one thousand percent right. And when you said that, I started to just get like, you know, um, kind of a heavy chest and emotion emotional, just because yeah, I mean, if I if I really really truly we're being you know, being honest. I mean, yeah, I probably I always knew

he had cheat. I just never wanted to believe that, yes, but you know, seeing the repeated patterns, and even when I spoke to you during that momuary, I mean knowing now what I know what was actually going on, then, um I I knew, like I there was that piece of me that that knew, just like my best friend Katherine was like I always knew, and I you know I had. And but also what's sad too is kind of what you were saying from my childhood, from traumas

and stuff, that's I've always picked the abuser. And so there was something that happened when we first started dating that I've don't think I'll ever actually share, but um in and in that moment, I was like, it was that sign like I have have to leave this, but I then that was that was that was that was the moment that I betrayed myself was because I didn't want to see his reaction or know what his reaction would be, so I allowed it to happen for the

rest of our marriage. Well, so here's the thing I want you to understand. So first things first, Um, especially as somebody that was a trained crisis intervention counselor and I volunteered on a domestic violence hotline for four years, and being somebody that was a public defender from legal aid, I want to make sure that you don't ever hear

this as you're to blame for anything. What I want you to understand is that inside every breakdown of your life, inside every heartbreak, every trauma, every horrendous thing that you've ever survived, if you look closely, you will find the keys that will unlock the cage that you've been trapped in. And I believe the cage that you're probably trapped in. And I'm just going to throw things at you and they're either going to feel like, oh that rings true

or not. Almost like if we were shopping, I would throw, hey, try this. I know you don't like this color bridges. Try it on um and you're the one has to see if it fits. You're the one who has to

unpack it with your therapist. But I think it's really important for you two take this incredible thing that's happened in your life and see it as a dot on the map of your life, like everything that's ever happened to you has led you to this moment, and this moment is going to lead you just like a dot, another dot on the map of your life to somewhere extraordinary. If you take the time to unpack the lesson that's meant for you in this and what's meant for you

in this is not to blame yourself. It's not to excuse the behavior that you endured from somebody else. It's to understand what happened to you that made you equate this kind of treatment with love. And so it probably started with something you witnessed in childhood or experienced in the home that you were growing up with. You don't have to talk about it, but what I want you to realize is somewhere along the line, in your your baby or your toddler or your young brain, the experience

of being loved got fused with being treated poorly. And so what you need to do, in addition to healing your nervous system, which we can talk about, we can talk about high five in your heart, which I definitely want you to start doing, yes to talk about that, yep. And in addition to high fiving yourself in the mirror, which is so deep and which you need because what you've been doing, and what all of us do in various ways in our lives, is we look outside of

ourselves for love and validation. And the best way to heal yourself is to start working on and building an incredible partnership with yourself to learn how to love yourself, accept yourself, forgive yourself for exactly where you are right now and exactly where you're not. Because the relationship you have with yourself is the foundation of every relation and ship that you have in life. So if you are insecure with yourself, you will be insecure in other relationships.

If you don't truly love yourself and treat yourself with love, you will not even be able to accept that somebody else truly loves you. And so we need to and you have a huge opportunity to go. Okay, I get it, I get it. I need to truly empower myself and listen to all of those instincts and the wisdom that comes up, because the fact is I knew I just didn't listen to myself. That's all that happened. I was too scared to listen to myself. And I'm not even

gonna blame myself for that. I'm I I'm just gonna learn the lesson and I'm gonna forgive myself for not listening to myself, and then I'm gonna practice rebuilding a connection and a trust with myself. And you can do it you can. Yeah, it's actually really awesome. No, I mean, it's definitely been fun to to do that because I think I have not listen to my gut for so many years in my life, and that's just been the

like the biggest, like you said, betrayal. But I also it's you know, obviously working through some trauma pieces in childhood and early relationships with like M d R with my therapist, and it's been it's been really good. But yeah, finding that worthiness that I am okay. I don't need a validation from a man, I don't need um that I'm okay alone, Like all those things have been a true um blessing that has come out of this, like

the divorce um. And I'm still working on it, like it's it's still I still have moments of um of self doubt and the voices and all those things Like God, of course who does it for It will be a lifelong journey. And because what you're talking about is repairing your nervous system from past trauma. And when your nervous system is hardwired to react, it reacts before your brain does.

And one of the things that I write about in this new book that I want you to start practicing as this high five to your heart, and we can get into this because I think that when I unpack everything for you, you're going to have a moment where you go, oh my god, like this is it. This is foundational what Miles talking about. Before we get into the high five thing, I just want to say one thing that I the last and I was telling Catherine this UM before you came on the last UM four

or five months post divorce. I have used five two one almost daily because when I get into those moments where I'm literally just staring at a wall, or I'm depressed, or I'm missing my kids and because they're at their dads or UM or I just don't even want to get up, I have used three to one and it it's been incredible how much it actually works and just it gets you up, and I'm like, okay, and I just thank you for that because we I know, we talked about that, and you guys can listen to the

podcast where you know she she goes into one. But it's incredible change of mindset that is so helpful when you are just at your lowest. So I appreciate you for that. Well, thank you for that, and thank you for using it. And I want to tell you something really exciting. So the five second rule, I mean, it's extraordinary. It's it's so dumb, it's so simple, it's so easy.

It works, it's like weird. Um. The science behind it's crazy, and um, you know, we know millions of people's lives who have changed, including a hundred and eleven people who have stopped themselves from attempting suicide by counting backwards five, three to one and asking for help. And it is a tool that will push you to interrupt thoughts that are torturing you. It's a tool that will push you to take action, push you to do the work to change life. It's it's extraordinary as a tool that way.

But I need I need some more tools though, So I want to hear. I want to I want to tell you something. Even knowing all of that, I cannot wait for you to truly understand and learn the high five habit because I think it is even more profound, it works even more deeply, and there is no mistake in why we're talking today because it is exactly what you need. And so let me tell you the story

of how this got created. Because again, you know, like my brand of personal development is screw up my own life, find myself at a hole? Word can ladder Like, like, how do I get out of this? Yes? I can? I just please be like somebody who reads this stuff in a book and applies it. Why do I have to pick up my life? Like I don't understand why I have to make things so difficult? Thank you for doing? Like I said. Situation where I'm like, Okay, it's been

five years since I have had a book out. I guess I need to write a book about five you know. But that's not what happened. Like I literally find myself and this is not a pandemic book, but here's what happens in my in my life, So I find myself. We all have a quarantine story, right, We all know the moment that your life imploded because of COVID and you're like, okay, this is actually a thing, and my whole life just changed. And for me, when was it that?

When was it that you knew? Oh, like COVID is for real and my whole life just changed. When I got sent home from the movie, yeah, production shutdown, and I was like, well here we are, like we're all locked down. Nanny went away. Never got one back, like yes, yes, yeah, like whether it was an email from work that no one's going to the office or you can't visit your grandparents. Uh, you know, for me, it was very similar to yours.

We were filming my daytime talk show. Somebody walks in the studio at CBS Broadcast Center and says, COVID is in the building. You need to evacuate immediately, and like that show canceled. I'm fired from my dream job. Don't get to say goodbye to the hundred and thirty people I've been working with for a year. I'm driving home. Next thing, you know, my daughter's calling from Spain, where she's studying abroad during college. Oh my god, they're closing

the borders. How am I going to get out of here? And then my daughter calls from usc where she's a music student. Oh my mom, they're shutting the door. What's a all? Next thing, you know, the next three weeks are a blur. I'm in my pajamas for three weeks straight. I'm drinking bloody marries at eleven o'clock in the morning, Like, I just have no idea. What's happening. Every speech is canceled, a book contract gets canceled. I'm fired from and I'm thinking,

are you kidding me? After working this hard? I have to reinvent myself again? Haven't we been through this? Come on? God? Like, I'm literally so angry, and I'm also beaten down like everybody else, Like I'm worried about the people that work for me. I'm worried about making payroll. I'm worried about my parents. I'm worried about frontline workers. I'm worried about my kids who are anxiety stricken and angry and full

of grief. And college is imploded, and just the world is upside down, and and I know everybody can relate to this. So I wake up one morning and I just feel the way of the world on my shoulders. I am overwhelmed by the amount I have to do, by the problems that I'm facing, by the stress that I feel, by the loneliness that I feel. I use the five second or five or three to one, even thirteen years later, I don't like getting out of bed,

and I still use it every morning. And it's important for everybody to know that, because I know we all hear that. You know, if you practice something twenty one days in a row, it's a habit. Well, that's true if you like it. If you don't like what you have to do, you gotta keep on pushing yourself. And so five or three to one, I pushed myself out of bed. I always make my bed. On that morning, I made the bed so I wouldn't crawl back into it.

I dragged myself to the bathroom and there I am standing in my underwear and I feel you'll exhausted, and I'm brushing my teeth, and all of a sudden, I catch a glimpse of my reflection in the mirror, and I think, oh my god, you look like hell. And the woman I saw in the mirror had dark circles under her eyes, and a saggy neck, and one boobs hanging lower than the other, and gray hair is coming in. She looked tired, overwhelmed, beaten down. I actually felt sad

for her, and I started picking her apart. And then, of course, once you start thinking a negative thought, your thoughts just spiral even lower. I started like beating myself up. Why to get up so late? I've got a zoom call in eight minutes. How I'm gonna pull myself together? I see the dog at my feet. I haven't even walked the damn dog yet. And here's the interesting thing. If you had walked into the bathroom at that moment,

I could have pivoted on a dime. I would have been like, honey, oh come on, I know this isn't fair, I know this sucks. I know you don't deserve it, but if anybody can handle it, it's you. I would have picked you up. I would have sent you on your way. But standing there with myself, I couldn't think of a damn thing to say. And you know what, I probably wouldn't have believed it anyway. That's how beaten

down I felt. And I don't know what came over me, but I literally raised my hand, as cheesy as it sounds, and I high five the woman I saw in the mirror because I knew she needed it. And here's the thing. It's not like lightning stroke and I suddenly, oh, like changed my life. That's not what happened. But something shifted like my I felt my shoulders drop, I felt my

chin lift. I laughed because it's so dumb, like I'm standing there in my underwearth a dog and I'm never brawn and I'm high fiving, like how pathetic is this? But I laugh and all of a sudden, I just feel a little better and I go on with my day. Now. It was the second morning that something really clicked for me. I woke up, same overwhelmed, same problems. I used the five second or five or three too, want to get

out of bed. I make my bed, I start walking to the bathroom, and as I'm about to round the corner and step into the bathroom, I feel something I have never ever felt before. And this is what I felt. You know how when you go and you're going to meet a friend for a cup of coffee, somebody you really like, and you're about to walk into the coffee shop to see this person you really like, What is it that you feel happy a friend just to see a friend? Yeah, Like you're like, oh friend, Yeah, you're

excited looking forward to it. I felt that way about the idea of seeing myself. You're being a friend here, so yeah, I'm gonna be fifty three years old this year. I have never felt that before. In my entire life, I have looked forward to seeing my outfit, we're seeing my hairstyle or how the new eye shadow looks. I have never experienced the feeling of looking forward to seeing

the human being. Mel Robbins. Do you think it's because we always carry our shame or we carry our past and we're like, oh, we're not worthy enough, we're not good enough, we're not like it's all the negative voices that we've put on us that like, why why would I want to be me friend? Catherine wants to be my friend, but I don't want to be my friend. Yeah, why, I think it's those so deep? I think it is so deep. I think we have a habit that we

don't realize. Everybody talks about morning routines. Will you have one? You stand in front of yourself and you either ignore yourself or you beat the out of yourself. That's your habit, that's your relationship with yourself. That's what everybody on the planet does. And so as I walked into the bathroom that morning, this whole idea of the high five felt

a little bit more profound. And so I finished brushing my teeth and I and I want you know, when you practice this, do it right after you brush your teeth, because based on the research, when you stack a habit with some a new habit with something you're already doing, it's way easier for your brain to remember it, to encode it in your neural pathways, and to make it

something you always do. And so I put the toothbrush down and I take a minute, and I'm just staring at myself and I'm not even seeing my face or my body. I'm just seeing the human being the woman that is re flected back in the mirror. And it's a very intimate moment. And what I've found in researching now this book is how startling it is how many

people don't even and can't even look at themselves. And so I thought to myself, and this is the first thing that you're going to do when you practice this, is look at the human being that's staring back at you, because that's the person you go through life with. There's only one human being you spend your whole life with, and they're with you every morning in the mirror, and they need you. They need your support, they need your encouragement,

they need you to cheer for them. They need to be seen, they need to be felt, they need to be heard, and you have spent almost your whole life ignoring them. And so I want you to think, for just a second, what does the woman in the mirror need for me today? How do I need to show up for her? And it's an interesting way to set an intention because normally, as you think about the day ahead, you're thinking about all the things you need to do,

which are typically for everybody else. I want you to take an intentional moment of reflection with you, and research from Harvard shows that simply reflecting on how you're going to show up today for less than a minute, it changes your level of focus and productivity, and it changes how you show up and your ability to impact people around you, including yourself. So ask yourself, how can you show up for the person that you see in the mirror today? And then secondly, ask yourself, what game are

we going to play today? Like what matters to me that I can make a little progress on? And then once you kind of think about that, just raise your hand and seal it with a high five. Now here's the interesting thing about this. The science on this is crazy, absolutely, Like you cannot believe how incredible of an idea this is. Because I'm about to prove to you that you don't have to do anything other than raise your hand in high five yourself. You don't have to didn't anything, say anything,

You don't have to do anything. Your entire nervous system, your heart, and your brain are already programmed to receive this new like programming. I'm gonna give you. It's incredible. So here's what's gonna here's what's gonna happen. First of all, when you first do this tomorrow morning, you gotta give me five days of doing this in a row. You cannot do this for one day and then roll your eyes. I'm gonna be with you so because we're going away, so we're like, I'm gonna I want to watch you

in the mirror and do it too. Okay, you gotta do this five days in a row. Because number one, it's gonna feel weird. And let me explain to you, based on using neuroscience, why it will feel weird. Your brain is not wired to do new things. Your brain loves patterns. This is why you and I were talking about patterns last time. And so I write, I'm a right hander. I don't even think when I'm writing with

my right hand because it's already a pattern. I could write with my left hand, but how would it feel weird because I've never done it before. But if I kept writing with my right hand, Let's say I lost my arm in an accident, I could learn how to write with my left hand, and over time, by repeating it, it would become the second nature and wouldn't feel weird. So the high five is going to feel weird in your body because you've never done it before, and in fact,

you're breaking a habit. That's the opposite of high fiving yourself. You are literally breaking the habit of criticizing yourself. So the cool thing is that when you go to raise your hand and high five your own reflection, your brain will kick into a subconscious mode. So let's talk about a high five. When you give somebody a high five. When you're like high five and your kids or a friend high fives you, what is a high five? The gesture alone communicate to you, good job, you're awesome. You

do that to me every time. I so, so when she high fives you, what does it feel? I know you do, I know, It's like I don't know. It feels very validating. It feels very like you know, it feels good. Yeah, it's I believe in you, I see you keep going. I love you. If somebody's going down and our attitude or energy is low and you high five, somebody's like, shug it off, come on, we got this. It's celebratory, it's empowering. It's it's positive, it is supportive,

it's validating. You said the word. It validates your most foundational needs of being seen, of being loved, being celebrated. It feels so good. All of that positive programming associated with a high five that you've given to other people, it's already in your brain. So when you raise your hand to your own reflection, your brain recognizes the gesturing and you cannot think, I suck, I screwed up my marriage,

my kids are ruined. You can't even think it because your brain won't allow it because forever it has associated that positive stuff with the gesture. So the more you do it, you silence the stuff you say to yourself, and you override it and program in all the positive stuff associated with a high five with the person in the mirror. And that's not all. You get a boost in your mood. Now. Dr Daniel Aiman, who is the world's leading expert on the brain. I talked to him

for two hours about the high five habit. He went bananas. He's like, mel l, do you know why you get a boost in your mood? I said no. He said, well, because when somebody high fives you in life, you get a drip of dopamine, the chemical in your brain that makes you feel good. When you high five yourself, your brain does the same thing because the action is already programmed, is something that you know and do in your brain.

The other thing that happens when you keep doing this for more than five days is you will start to feel a little jolt of energy. And Dr Daniel Aiman explained why to me too. He said, because when you raise your hand and wave at somebody, it's a positive celebration. When you raise your arms to hug somebody, it's a positive celebration. When you raise your arm when you cross the finish line, it's a positive celebration. When you go to high five somebody and raise your arm, it's a

positive celebration. When you start to do this every single morning, you're nervous system, it's like, oh, of course, it's a positive celebration of self, and so your nervous system gives you that feel good, energizing jolt. That's why it immediately makes you feel like you're leaving the bathroom with a little bit of momentum to go face the day instead

of dragging all your problems with you. It's incredible. Yeah, And I like where you say to um, because if I was to ask myself what I need, Like if I was to look in the mirror and be like, what do you need today, Like, I'd like, just like love me, like just like be kind to me, be nice to me, like love me. And it's like when you start to like be like, all right, I got you, you know, it's like you're actually being your friend. You're you're being you know how I am for my friends

are like and it's crazy that we don't. We're where the we're the worse with ourselves. Let me just let me just say that, Like she is so good at doing that for other people, of course, I mean by far the best. I think it's now, like she said, you can do it for other people, but then doing it for yourself is so important. Nobody has trained you have, no one, nobody on the planet knows how to do

this for themselves. See, we were born celebrating ourselves. You know, if you think about when your kids were really little and they saw a mirror, they'd crawl right up to it and kissed themselves. They wouldn't roll backwards and be like, look at those size, there's so bad. And my son Jay's just like he learned how to like climb up this wall, and he got up from this little wall climb and he starts clapping at himself, and I was like, yeah, buddy,

you did it. Yeah, exactly Exactly what happens is is that for many people, you grew up in a household where you're not safe, or where there's a tremendous chaos, or where you have to like start to cope in ways that make you go silent, or what happens with everybody as we've all had the experience of taking a tray and walking into a Cafeterian elementary school and seeing a bunch of kids you want to go sit with, and then what happens is you become your own sorting hat,

and as a means to protect yourself from rejection, you basically start the negative self talk. You start to tell yourself where you belong and where you don't. You start to pick yourself apart and then say, so, go over here because you don't have the genes that they're wearing. Or go over there because your skin color isn't the same, or go here because you don't belong there. And so that's how it begins, through self rejection, and it happens over and over and over again. And that's why there

are only two reactions that people have to this. You either start doing it and you'll start crying because you'll realize how much you've longed to feel this way, or more likely, you're going to resist it. And this is the sad part, and this is what you were talking about just a second ago. The resistance is something that's horrible. The resistance is the fact that when you stand in front of yourself every morning in the mirror, you drag

with you everything from your past. You believe that because of all the things that you've survived, the abuse, the trauma, the heartbreak, the neglect, whatever it is that you've faced, that somehow that's evidence that you're unworthy or damaged or broken or whatever you say. Or you take all the things that you've done that, you regret that. You can't forgive yourself for that you just did because you were trying to survive all those things you would forgive other

people for. But you can't look yourself in the mirror and forgive yourself because you see that as evidence that you're a bad person. And then you stand there in judgment,

which is why you're going to resist this. And what I'm here to say, and what I want every human being on this planet to know, is that if you can drag yourself out of bed, if you can stand before the mirror and you're still breathing in spite of all that stuff, and you're still here trying another day to do just a little bit better, you not only deserve a high five, you've earned one. You need one.

You know, life is a marathon. And if you ever watch a marathon, the spectators don't cross their arms and stand at mile eight and go, I'm not clapping for you till you get to the finish line. You look terrible. You see how lame that timing was for mile five. I think you're a runner. You shouldn't even be in this race. We don't do that. We clap and cheer just like your son, and we high five them every

step of the way. Why because the most motivating force on the planet is feeling seen, celebrated and supported, and that's what we all need every single step of the way. And there's another reason why we don't resist we resist this, and the reason is sad. It's because we've been trained. You believe that our worth is measured by whether or

not somebody else loves us. Are worth is measured by whether or not we have the followers, or the right car, or the right number on the scale, or the right money in the bank, or you know, if you're not where you think you should be, that you don't deserve a high five. And so part of your healing and part of you finding your power again is going to happen when you can stand in front of that mirror and you can raise your hand and you can celebrate

and support yourself exactly where you are right now. You can see a human being who's trying to heal, you can support her every step of the way. You can forgive yourself for the times that you didn't listen to yourself because you didn't know any better, and you can celebrate yourself as you wake up every day and you try to do just a little bit better. You start to do that, your relationship with your self changes. The power that you're seeing can the validation that you deserve

and need. It gets located back inside you. And let me tell you something I don't give you. When you're ready to start dating, when you are able to feel loved and seen and validated by yourself, you're not gonna let any motherfucker screw around with you because you will have your own back. You will be able to listen when that wisdom rises up. You are not going to tolerate being treated with disrespect because you are respecting yourself

every morning. It begins with you. And so I am so excited for you to start doing this for real because it sounds cheesy, but I am telling you this cuts down to the deepest, most foundational thing that everybody needs. And where can everybody? Is out now on Amazon? Or is it coming out? Oh it's you can get it. It's in twenty two languages. You can I don't know when this is airing, but yes, you can order it

right now. You can order it in multiple format. Um. It's it's super exciting and I don't know if we have time to, but I want to teach you that this other thing of high five in your hearts. This now, you put your hands on the center of your chest. I'm right there on top of each other. You're gonna take a deep breath, and then you're going to repeat these three sentences. Okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm safe, I'm loved, I'm I'm loved. Why don't you

say those three again? I started crying. Go ahead, take a deep breath and do it again. I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm loved. Now. The reason why I want you to do this right after you get out of bed is because after the last eighteen months, every human being on the planet has a stressed out, on edge nervous system. Your sympathetic nervous system is running on overdrive. It is impossible to learn new behavior. It is impossible to get your prefrontal cortex to be able to focus on anything

when your nervous system is on edge. When your nervous system is on edge, you are also very prone to being hijacked by trauma patterns because those trauma patterns are stored in your nervous system. So by saying I'm okay, I'm safe, I'm loved, which is if you can hear it and you can say it, it's true in that moment, and by putting your hands on your heart, you're stimulating something called your vegas nerve. Now, your vegas nerve is a treasure inside of you that you need to discover.

It is the on off switch for your on edge, disregulated, traumatic, stressed out nervous system. When you simply put your hands on your heart, because the vegas nerve runs from the seat all the way through every major organ, through your vocal cords, and through your head to the top of it. When you simply put your hands here and you press against the vegas nerve and you say I'm okay, I'm safe,

I'm loved, you will come back into your body. You're stressed out nervous system will turn off, and you'll turn on your calm, cool, parasympathetic nervous system, and you will

start your day grounded in your body. You will start your day with a nervous system that is calm, that is regulated, that is able to then go and receive the love and the encouragement and the support that you're going to feel when you raise your hand in celebration to the woman that you see in the mirror, who is showing up for yet another day on the marathon of this life, knowing that no matter what happens today,

she can handle it. She can have her own back, and she's going to take this moment in her life and she's going to use it because she knows it is preparing her for something extraordinary that's coming. I mean, I'm ready to go to bed because i want to wake up high five the shout of myself in the morning. So if my hands are in my heart, I cannot thank you enough for these tools. This I mean not.

I'm going to just listen to the last five minutes to that you just I mean just just thank you for for your light, for your light, for your your motivation, for your tools, for your heart. It means so much. So thank you, seriously. You're welcome. You're welcome, and you know I want you to know. I want to invite you to do something with us. So we're doing this free high five Challenge. It's five days where I'm going to give you the tools, the coaching, the community that

you need to practice this stuff. Just go to high five Challenge dot com. Great, it's free. I got you, I want you in there for you and I believe in you. I thank you so much. I appreciate it. Okay, we'll talk soon. Thanks changing absolutely. Yes, I love you, baby, Hi five, I love her. I'm gonna high five you. I love how we went in too, like childhood traumas to Yeah, that was good. I'm going to re listen to this episode was steep. It was good. It was very deep and good. And now I'm gonna go to

bed and high five myself in the morning. Let's I'll try it though. I'm gonna try. Yeah, I'm just afraid that I'm gonna like break my mirror because I'm gonna be like overly excited about it, like I'm gonna be like by you, and then it just like breaks. I'll figure it out, alright, guys, go high five Okay. Bye,