Good Grief

all have good and bad days. And I'm trying to give myself grace for the fact that some days are harder than others. But it kind of messes me up a little bit because just when I think that I'm doing good, it's like, oh, okay, wait, no, here's my reality. And yeah, it's just it definitely throws me for a loop trying to give myself grace, but all so knowing that even people that aren't going through through this have

bad days. I mean, I still like I struggle with depression on some days, even before the divorce, before everything else going on, So I think it is normal and sometimes it is just by the second and I think that's okay, Eastern, you look like you're chomping at the bit. What's going on? Jan I just I gotta ask. I gotta ask. There's there's a lot of stuff going around in the news on the internet. People are talking. I gotta find out what is going on with Graham Bun.

You are just going at me right right? Um? Okay? So wow, Eastern just wanting all the all the dirt. You know. It's one of those things where I want a daily pop. The last few weeks and it was an awesome experience. I loved it. It It was so much fun. Had a blast hanging out with the posts. But I'll never forget when Justin said that I was in an entanglement with Grandma, and I was like, in my mind, I wish I would because I was thinking, what is

an entanglement? Like, I was like, I have no idea what it is even is, but I was like, yes, okay, sure, like we're an entanglement. And then the next day it was like Grandma and Jane Kramer in an entanglement and I'm like, oh my gosh. First of all, I don't even know what this is. And when I looked it up, it kind of sounded a little negative. Um. But also I just feel like sometimes I need to take a beat before I say something because you know, I would

have obviously worded it a lot differently. UM. So yeah, I regret that a little bit, just because the storm of stories that came out really affected me in my anxiety, because that's just not where I'm at. Um. And it really messed with my Uh, it messed with me, and it kind of threw me for a loop. Um. But to set their records straight, we are friends. And I have known of him for seven years. He was a radio country radio DJ and uh and I didn't watch

his season on The bachelord. I didn't even know he was on it until he was the country radio DJ. But yeah, I mean I've known of him. I've had a few interviews with him back in the day. I

you know, one when I was pregnant with Jolie. Um. But always so sweet, so kind, and when I went through the divorce, he had reached out to me and just sent me like a very um he's a he's a big Christian and he sent me this really nice um uh, some passages and messages from the Bible and it's just it was just very kind and thoughtful, and so yeah, we we became friends and he's been he's been a It's so hard because it's like, I know that I need time to heal and degree and to

be alone. It's also one of those things where I'm like, man, sometimes I'm just like can a girl go on a date and have fun too? But he is sweet, but right now he knows and I know that I just need to be alone. I need to go through what I'm going through and I need to do that alone. And for me and Catherine as my friend. You see the difference this time around, right Oh yeah? I mean, and I know you're and and it's and I can definitely see a difference in you this time and really

taking you don't like to be alone. That's the one thing that she doesn't. I love to be alone. She hates to be alone. But you've started, I'm like, learned to love to be alone and you like it now. I'm so happy. But that's where I can see you're growing. You're taking the time to enjoy. I saw a quote the other day I meant to send to you, but it basically was about you can't be good in a relationship or a marriage if you're not happy with yourself and if you're not, if you're not in a good place.

And I think that you're realizing that and you you are, you're working on that, and I think it's great, and I appreciate you saying that. It's just yeah, I just I do have that battle sometimes because I think, well, yeah, I have been in an unhappy I have been unhappy for so many years and I've just been fighting it. So yeah, don't I deserve to like go out and

have fun and and be treated nice and kind. And you know it's I know that I do deserve that, but I need to that's in time, um, because right now, I really just need to focus on my kids. I need to focus on myself. I need to focus on my healing because I still I still miss my ex. I still have those days where I miss our family and I miss what we had and I wish things were different. And that's that's a really hard thing to to feel on days when I want to be strong.

But I think that's also normal to to. You know, obviously, I never in a million years wanted this to happen ever, or ever, ever, I mean I I yeah, I wouldn't have wished this on anyone. I wouldn't have wished it on our family. And so yeah, I miss I miss my family, I miss I miss my ex and but I have to think about what do I miss And that's kind of where I'm at right now and going through that and realizing and finding out like, Okay, what is the truth? What is the reality in that situation?

And you know, yes, we are better off as co parents, as hard as it is, but I think that's just part of the healing process and until my heart can finally be free from from that, and it's probably going to take a really long time, and I have to allow myself to heal, and I need to heal alone because yeah, in the past, I would I would cope with other people. I would cope with reaching out to other men because that's what would make me feel better.

But now I just I need to be alone. And you know, like Catherine was saying, like it's I do love to be alone now and I enjoy it. And yeah, but he's a great friend and you know who knows down the line when I'm ready. But on a side note, can a girl just go out on a few dates like come on, um, but no, I'm I'm doing the work. And I feel like I almost need almost being my therapist on here to back me up because it's a

because she knows the work that I've been doing. And I want to get into that grieving with um, with

you all because it's important. And again for me, I know that as much as I would like to put a band aid on things, that's not going to be the long fix because I look back in some of my journal entries and I'm like, man, like I need to break this pattern of what I believe in myself, what I believe that I deserve, because I have you know, my first relationship was an abusive relationship and like why how could I stay in there? Like what was Why did I say so little of myself to stay in

that situation? And and would I have stayed, you know, with things that happened early on in my relationship with Mike, Like if I loved myself more, maybe I wouldn't be in the situation now. And I think having that realization that there's so many things that I I wish I can go back and do and I can't. And that's something that you know, I don't regret the past, but now I have the like, the chance and the opportunity to create what I deserve, what I want, and I

had to figure that out. I gotta I gotta break these patterns. I gotta break these cycles that that I do. And that's again that that means that I need to do it alone. And I'm proud of myself for that because it's not easy. But I have amazing friends like Catherine and um yeah, and it's hard to see comments because people are like, oh my god, she's moving on, like j Lo and that's like, look, we all cope in different ways, but you don't know the behind the scenes.

And so that's another reason why I'm bringing my therapist not to back me the heck up today. Um but yeah, I love you guys, I love you Cat, and let's get my therapist done. I totally just sprung this on my therapist. I just texted her because it's one of those things where I'm like, we're talking about this grief and like how to handle and how to deal with it, and I'm like, and also because of everything that just kind of came out in the news and stuff, it's

like I am doing the work. And I almost felt like I had to have my therapist to like validate that I am doing the work, right, Amy, Okay, absolutely lots of times, twice a week, but absolutely every week we meet. Yeah, and you've you've been here for almost two years doing the work, so you've been committed to the work even when there wasn't a crisis. And I think it's I'm curious too because when we talk about grieving, how like, is it okay to feel in one moment

that I'm happy. In the next moment I come home and I'm just like shattered and destroyed? Is that is that normal in the grieving process? And kind of like as I feel like I'm on this hamster wheel? Sure, sure, Well, you know there's a metaphor that I really love to give when I'm talking about grief and when you've been through something traumatic, And some people think about the big T traumas, right, so maybe a natural disaster, sexual assault, uh,

you know, gun violence, those are our big teas. Small T traumas can be being bullied, made fun of, body shamed, but any trauma that negatively impacts your view of yourself or your world, So it could be the result is something like I'm unworthy because of what's happened to me. I'm a lovable it was my fault, I was response able. So those are those negative beliefs that begin to to seep in when we when we're not doing our work.

But when you've experienced a trauma, it's though a grief enter excuse me, a grief river enters your property, okay, and that loss and the sadness that you feel about that loss isn't going anywhere. The truth is that that's going to be on your property for the rest of your life. Now, what we're looking for is movement, So

we want the river to move. Now. Sometimes it's gonna move quickly and swiftly, and the sun is shining down on it and the water is sparkling, and and that's a great day that, as you just described, you feel like you're making progress and you have hope for the future. Some days though, the water is barely a trickle, and it's murky and muddy and heavy and hard and gloomy,

but it's moving. Now. As a therapist, what we're looking for is places where the river gets dammed up and those trauma sticks that damn up the river like a beaver drip damn are usually the way something ended. So it might be the way that someone looked at you at the very last conversation. It might be the things that you wanted to say and you never got to say, or the awful things you did say and that was

the last conversation you had. So we're looking for those things that stopped the river from flowing, because grief should be moving, it should be adaptive, and it should change. And most people are familiar with the stages of grief right so denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, those are not linear. We don't get to move through those in order. One day you may be an acceptance and the next day

you may be back in full throttle anger. Um. One thing I would mention is that David Kessler, who's a world renowned grief expert. I think the world of him and his work. He has recently come out with a new book called Finding Meaning, and he has essentially formally added a sixth stage to grief. And with him he lost his son, his adult child, very unexpectedly, and he often says it wasn't the grief expert who lost his and it was the parent, the dad who lost a son.

And after that, he worked his way through all these stages. He came to acceptance, which means, um, I can accept that something has ended and my love goes on. But he thought, you know what, this can't be it. This cannot be the end of my process. And so he discovered that the final stages finding meaning how do we make sense of our loss in a way where we can help others and carry on a legacy of love

and goodness and forgiveness. Right, I have a question for you, Amy, coming from like the friend perspective of someone that's going through it, you know. I mean, I've been here a long time with Janna and all of the processes, but it's kind of hard because he has friends. We just want to be like, like, let's get up, let's go have fun, like we want to you know, we want to keep her happy. We don't want to see her sad.

But I think, you know, I've realized kind of in this process that we need to be a little bit better at letting her grieve and letting her have her moment. But you know, so I kind of just wonder what is the best way to handle that, like give her her time, but then hey, let's let's go, let's get up, let's go do things, or just let her have that and just let her be or what what is kind of your advice there? Well, you've asked a great question in general, but you've asked a great question on behalf

of your friend. So we never want to try to talk someone out of their grief. Grief is as unique as your fingerprint, So your grief is going to be totally different than someone else's, and we need to give people permission to be where they are now. We do need different types of friends in our grief. We need people who can distract us for a while. We need someone who we can laugh with, we need someone who

we can rage with. But it's on us to know what our needs are and to communicate those things to our friends. That's one of the really hard parts of grief is that we end up having to educate the people around us about what we need. But we do have to do that now. For Janna in particular, I would say that she she has the ability to be very self aware, And I think you could ask for what do you need in the this moment? Do you want me to sit on the floor and rip up

old letters with you. You know, I think about Janna the first time you came to session after some things had come out. Um, we had a funeral for you in session. We both wore black, I had a coffin on the coffee table. We wrote a eulogy to the marriage, and we held a funeral service and it was it was hard and heavy but important. At other times we've laughed and um talked about things you're hopeful about and looking forward to. But you get to be in charge. You get to be the judge of what you need

in any given moments. So Catherine, I would just say, asked Janna what she needs, and she'll probably be able to tell you that it's good for her to practice using her voice. Yeah, and we we had something it was like very soon after everything where it was just like I think I I snapped a little bit. I was like, I just like, I don't know, I don't

even think he snapped. I think I just I've been in this situation before and we had had kind of not you know, just like she did had kind of snapped at me, and so I just kind of withdrew. This was years ago, so this time after it happened. I had been there a lot, but then I had three kids and I was out of town and I had sports every night, and so my guilt was you have you haven't done anything, but I could feel you kind of withdraw a little bit. So I just said, hey,

like I just need you to know that. Like I don't even remember exactly what I said, but it was basically like I'm here for you and whatever you need. I'm sorry that i've been busy, you know, but also I'm trying to figure out how to I don't examine maneuver it. Yeah, there was definitely that, but also in the very beginning because we worked together, you like, I was like I'm trying, like I was just like it was one of those where that's where I kind of

I just started crying. I like, this is not easy. I know, like and yes, and you're like, I know, but like she also has the position where she has to talk to me as my manager, you know, So it's like that really hard. Like there's a rule there's a dual role there, the friendship and manager, and there can be a conflict of interest that arises at times

that you guys will have to sort through. But Catherine, I would say your needs matter just as much as Janna's needs, and sometimes her grief needs aren't going to match up with your capacity or your availability, and it's okay for both of you to say, my need is this. We aren't in sync right now. You're gonna need to reach out to someone else in your support system, and it's okay for you to say that. And I believe

Janna can respect that boundary. Yeah, and I think that, you know, I think we did a really good job. This is great, I'll see you next week. But I think we did a good job of having a group of friends that we all acknowledge that, like, hey, like I got this going on at home right now, I can't be there. Are you good to go check on Janna? And that we have this like text message going on to make sure that everyone And I think that helped it.

It took a lot of it off, but yeah, in that moment, I think there are times I just have to say, you know, manager hat On, like so sorry, we gotta do X, Y and Z. But then it's like, all right, friend, hat how are you you know? I mean, I hear you about that. I think I'm grateful for opportunity to talk to one of Janna's friends. I would love to talk more, but I think Janna is working through knowing that she's okay on her own, and I think it's great that you all rallied and that you

guys were there for her around the clock. I also think it's really okay for her to have uncomfortable moments where she figures it out by herself, because this process of finding herself again is sort of like taking a flashlight into a dark library and just beginning to shine the light on what might be in there. And there will come a moment when Janna flips the switch and realizes all the strength and all the determination and clarity that she has within her that she can easily defer

to other people. Um she's looking for someone else to to show her away forward or to what is the right answer, what is my next right step? And ultimately, you know, our process is about you learning to trust yourself enough to to believe in you. So in that process of you know, because obviously I wanted you know, do you think differently in the very beginning of this is like, Okay, what I know that I still have

so much healing and grieving to do. And I know there's not a timeline, but when do you It's not not like when do you know your heal? But it's like, well, we measure progress in millimeters. I mean, what are those very small incremental things that you can give yourself success and credit for? And and grief is like that, and so is recovering from traumatic relationships. And what would you say to that? What are a few small things that you can give yourself credit for? Since April one? I mean,

I'm able to laugh and have enjoyed myself. I'm able to be alone. I'm able to find moments of happiness. I think it's just those moments where I come home and go, oh crap, Like I was. I was more upset with myself when I came back from Los Angeles because I was like, oh, I thought I was better. I thought like, I didn't think I would have this like cauling my eyes out experience again on the couch and like so it's like sometimes I feel like that makes me be like, oh crap, I'm I'm so far

away from where I thought I was. That's just that's just being realistic and honest with the amount of loss and devastation that you faced. I mean, your world was turned upside down very quickly. If six to eight weeks later you were over it, I'd be very worried about you. So I love that you're giving yourself permission to have hard, sad days as you should, and you're healing will come in direct proximity to you being less engaged with toxic people.

The less engagement, the further progress you will make. I mean, I hear you on that. I like her. Yeah, I know, well she always knows like whenever I'm you know, I know you know when I'm in in that web of because my my whole body changes, my whole attitude changes, my whole Well, I asked you this Monday, I said, whose opinions really matter to you? Because you do have a lot of people complimenting you and saying nice things

to you. But I can kind of see this look in your eye, like you agree and you're thankful, but it's not sinking in. It's not hitting you at your core. And so who has the power to say unkind things or kind things and for it to really hit you in a way where it's believable. Um, So I think that's an important question for you to look at and and where where do they get that power? How do they earn that spot in your life? M You've got

a lot of people talking at you. You're in a privileged position of receiving a lot of advice and insight. The real changes are gonna come when you're hearing yourself and you trust that voice. Yeah, and see, that's that's the place where I want to where I want to be and where you know, it's it was hard for me with everything that kind of came out with, you know, my my dating life and because you know, again I'm

not in anything committed. I am having fun and I'm enjoying myself, but I'm also realizing those moments where I need to be alone and I need to have those moments, but I don't want that to be because I'm listening to people saying, oh, she's moving too fast or oh it's like what do I feel? It's like I don't know, Like I have to like sit with that and like

process that. But unfortunately, because I do do this show and I am open, you know, it's it's I'm set up for people's comments and criticism, and which is the point where I'm like, I don't want to do the show anymore, like because I don't talk about that. Your vulnerability is a gift to the world. You offer something remarkable in how transparent you are, but it's only a

gift when you're managing it. When you allow people to back you into a corner and share something before you're ready or before you're sure what the implications will be, then it's a weapon that's used against you. And so you have to slow down enough to know what you're sharing and when you're ready to share it. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's just so much noise when you're in

the position that you're in. There's so much noise between your friends, between the fans, between everybody, and it's any normal person that's going to affect I think you're kind of hard on yourself because you want it to affect you. But anyone would who's not going to worry about that. I mean, that's normal. And with like the yeah I hear I can definitely hear you on that, and with going through the process of you know, divorce and grieving, what are some things that people can do to not

like like I beat myself up over it. I beat myself up that I'm that I have those hard days. And I know you say you want me to have those moments and those feelings. But what are some things that I can, you know, either allow myself grace or things that I can be like, Okay, I'm gonna now. I don't want to stay in it because when I stay in it, I think I should feel it. But I also don't want to like stay stuck there either. Okay.

I almost hear two questions there. For one, you need to give yourself permission to feel sadness about the end of this marriage. Even a fifteen years from now, you still have moments where you feel sad that it didn't go like you wanted it to or you thought it would. That's appropriate. Sadness is an appropriate response for this loss, Jannah. And so I think you know what you resist persists. So the harder you try not to be sad, um,

the more that it's gonna stockpile and come outsideways. So give yourself a moment to cry and grieve and honor what wasn't and what was, and then you'll move forward from it. Um. So I think that's really important. I actually don't hear you being hard on yourself about having hard days or sad moments. I hear you being hard on yourself about other things. UM, do you want to go there? Do you know? Want to? This is all all? You know? What works for you, what's good for you?

You're hard on yourself about? Uh? You know? Am I good enough? Am I worthy? Was this my fault? Will anyone ever really love the real need? Those are the places where I think you get stuck. It's not about having that day. Uh yeah? Do you want to share some of those, um negative beliefs that run pretty deep

for you? I think, I mean, that's that was what we I mean, that's I was just in your office last week, like destroyed about those feelings, feeling like, yeah, I was my fault, or if I would have done this, this would have been different, or if I would have Yeah, I mean all I just don't feel or like that I was good enough for I wasn't lovable enough for UM? And that's um. It just sucks like to feel, you know, and we trace that back. It goes way back beyond

this relationship, doesn't it. It links back to early childhood. And that's the value of the m d R and brain spotting and some of the work that we're doing. And I know you'd love to be three sessions and they're good. Um you you had many years of this kind of drama though, and so it does take some time. H yeah, I mean I hear all that. I think

it's just I know, how do I say this? Like if again, if I put myself into my friends situation, if Katherine was feeling this way about her, I would be like, what, Like you're incredible, Like it's just it's just or is someone listening right now? Like I don't want people to feel like they're not worthy, that they're not lovable. I'm the first person to be like, you are so lovable, you are so you're kind enough and you you never deserve this and you are enough. It's like,

why can't people say that to themselves? M h m hm. Well, I think you've just had a lot, a lot of life experiences and negative voices that have spoken messages that were contrary to that. And they were typically in relationships where you were in a vulnerable position. I mean you needed that person to love you, protect you, to provide, and so you were in a fragile place. And again your loyalty, kindness, and forgiveness were used against you, and

they're that's psychological TERRORISTM. You know, we we call it intimate terrorism, but there is recovery. Right. Well, okay, let me ask you, how would you define that for you? What is it? What's your best hope for healing in your life? M? That I one day realized that it wasn't my faults, that I am deserving of a great love, that I actually believe that, and that I am enough no matter whether I'm single, married, alone, like wherever I'm at, like that I am enough and I'm I'm I'm worthy.

It's just like even saying it like I'm like, because it's like I'm just not there yet. Yeah, And you have to be alone long enough to know it when you're alone, right, I mean, So we've talked about the fact that it's like we go through life sitting in a chair and this chair next to us is empty and it's open for the person who we can do life and partnership with. But we hate having an empty

chair next to us. It's embarrassing, it's lonely, and so we kind of let whoever walks by just sit in the chair to avoid discomfort, it has to sit empty for a while. That's called the sacred space. Or we're having to, you know, confront our own insecurities. And you have you have said, I think publicly and to me that you've been amazed at how much your anxiety has decreased in the middle of the night. That's a win.

That's a big win for you to know you don't have to have someone in the house with you to be okay. So on a scale of one to ten, how I know where you were a few days ago, How strongly do you feel that you are worthy and lovable and deserving? And this isn't all your fault. I think the other day I was four. I think I'm at like five and a half today. Okay, some progress and you get to come back and have it be at a three to you know what I mean. It's okay.

But there is hope, there is yeah, for everyone listening. There is hope in knowing and believe and in growth and right yeah, yess. I also want you to plug too, because the refuge center UM is in in is in Tennessee, and can you can you just give a healthy plug for for what you do and what the Refuge Center can offer to those that um that need this, and because I think we all need it. I think we all a safe space. And you've given me an incredible space space to come on some of my worst days,

and I'll forever be thankful for you. Well, hey, research says that any given moment, we all have about three point two blind spots. Those are the things that everybody else about us around us knows about us, so we don't know about ourselves. So people say, when's a good time to go to therapy, Well, pretty much anytime, because we all have things we need to work on that other people could tell us we need to work on. So I think, yeah, we should all have our iron

sharpens iron people around us. And sometimes that's a therapist. Sometimes it's a life coach, a spiritual director, a yoga instructor, your acupuncturist. But we need people helping us be better and stronger. So the Refuge Center for Counseling, my friend Jennifer Gilet and I co founded it back in two thousand and five, so this is our sixteenth year of operation.

We do offer all of our services on a sliding scale based on income, so anyone, no matter who you are, what you've done, what's been done to you, what you can afford. Um. Everyone deserves access to wonderful care. And we provide about thirty one thousand counseling sessions a year for around four thousand people. And UM, yeah, this place uh is you know. Counseling is about removing the burdens, barriers and shame stories so that people can live in freedom.

And we're we're doing that here. Yeah, and if you're in the Tennessee area, please please please please go to Refuge because it's it's incredible. Um. But hopefully this inspires people that are listening right now that we can all we can all do some work on ourselves to be the best versions um that we can be. You're a great example of that, Janna. I hope you'll feel very proud of that today. Thanks Amy, I love you so much.

I see you next week in the office. And thank you for like I said that you've been You've saved me in many ways, So thank you help you've saved you in many ways. Right, Okay, I love, love, love, I see you later. She's incredible. I love Amy so much, amazing. I mean, as a friend, like, do you know because it's like you always wonder like am I going to therapy? Like is this therapist good? Because I'll let you because you know, we have conversations about what you'll talk about.

But I mean, I know your therapist like really knows you. But like I feel like I really know you. And she says all those things, I'm like, she really knows good. Yeah, I know she's incredible. And yeah again, um, you know, the Refuge Center is incredible. So if you're in the Nashville area, please please please check it out. Um. And she also mentioned David Kessler and when she mentioned that, uh, the producer has popped on, saying, I think maybe we

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more about the hottest toys for summer. Because my kids are all about the bubble game, you don't know. We're all about that high school drama. Girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens and forever. We'll take you for a ride at our comic girl cheering for the right drama queens girl fashion, but you'll tough, girls. You could sit with us Girl Drama, Queen's Drama, Queen's Drama,

Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama Queens. Hey, this is Bethany joy Lynn and Sophia Bush and Hillary Burton and we have a podcast called Drama Queens. I feel like it's a walk down memory lane that also might be a little bit of a stumble down memory lane. I mean, we'll have cocktails sometimes so we might leave stumbling. I'm good with that. There are no fans like One Tree

Hill fans. There is no family like our family. So we got together to do a rewatch podcast to relive the show as so many of you have so many times, because to be honest, we haven't Yeah, we haven't seen it since two thousand and two, two thousand three. We can't wait to take this trip up down memory lane with all of you. What would our characters be doing right now? I think Hayley would probably be I mean, she's got to be close to an empty uster now

right like um Jamie's out of the house. She might she might be finally ready to live out those wild years that you know what I mean. I think it might be time. I'm going to say a lot of therapy. Peyton Sawyer is in so much therapy right now, well not long ago. I found my vote Brooke Davis for president pinn I don't know it's Brooke Davis Senator or something like that. There's so much cool stuff to imagine for them. But before we can go forward, we got

to go back to the beginning. You nailed it. Make sure you all listen to Drama Queens on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens O t H or mail us at Drama Queens at I heart radio dot com. See you next time. We're all about that high school drama. Girl, Drama Girl, all about them high school queens and forever.

We'll take you for a rod at our comic girl cheering for the right drama Cueens, go up, girl fashion, but you'll tough. Girl. You could sit with us Girl Drama Queens, Drama, Queens Drama, Queen's Drama, John mc Queen's Drama, Queen's David, Hi, Darlin, where are you at. I'm in Los Angeles, I mean Los Angeles right now. Well, I'm excited to be with you. Sorry under these circumstances, but

still excited. I mean, yes, same. And also, I was just talking to my therapist on here and she she mentioned you because she's a she's a huge fan, and and um, you know the fact that we have you on right afterwards is awesome because she was saying that in your book you talked about the sixth basically step of grieving, right, the sixth stage, right, sixth stage, and that is can you talk about that? Because when she said that, it like it almost gave me goose bumps.

So as as you know, I've seen you talk about it before. People often talk about the stages of grief. There's denial, anger, bargaining all the what ifs and if only, depression, which is the sadness, and then acceptance. I think we're a generation that doesn't want to stop at acceptance. I think we want more, and I think that more is finding meaning, that these experiences, these losses, the things we've

gone through aren't just for the sake of nothing. That you know, we don't have to come through things with post traumatic stress. We actually can come through them with post traumatic growth. And to me, that's sixth stage. The stage of meaning is that I guess I'm just and I and I absolutely love that. But the meaning, I feel like there's I hear them like, yes, there's a there's a meaning, and there's a reason. It's almost like a reason to me. But is it still okay to

go on that hamster wheel of all those emotions? Even though there is a meaning, absolutely, and you know you can't heal what you don't feel, so you have to feel all those things. And grief is organic. There's like there there's no you know we talked about those stages aren't linear. You can one moment be thinking about the meaning, the next moment being I can't believe this is happening to me, The next moment go back into the what ifs.

It's very organic and messy, you know. If anything, I'd like to tell people the reality is grief as messy. If you're trying to meeting it up, you just got to know it's messy. But one of the things I like to talk about with meaning is people here meaning and they'll go, well, there's no meaning in a horrible death, or there's no meaning in a divorce, there's no meaning in you know, upsetting our children's worlds. And I'll go, no, meaning isn't in the divorce or the death or the grief.

Meaning is in us. It's what we do after. It's how we hold this experience. You know, are you going to hold it as life is screwed up? Things go wrong? There's no point life is horrible and your kids are watching that are you going to hold it as you know, sometimes life's messy and sometimes things don't work out the way we think, and sometimes there's not a fairy tale ending and life is still good and life is still

hopeful and we can still make it work. And yes, we're going to be sad, we're going to be depressed. It's going to be challenging, but we can get through this. Mm hmm. That's great. Why is life so hard some time? It's like, you know, it's just sometimes it's just there's there can be so much heaviness and it's just like right now, like I'm I think, you know, how can someone attract the light when there is that darkness? Well, that's that's like been the question I've been asking my

whole life. And I think it's by naming moments as meaningful. You know, in this darkness of losses, of deaths, of divorce, of grief, of children and all that, you and I are taking a few moments to talk about the light and remember the light and to know that the light exists even in all of this, and just us bringing up the light is us remembering the hope mm hmm. And it's these moments to do it. This is a

meaningful moment to me. Those moments that you have to explain the worst kid thing that could happen to your kids so far in their life will also be a meaningful moment to them that Mommy, in the midst of everything cared about their well being and that will be meaningful to them because, you know what, we want to make sure our kids and all of us avoids life

losses and tragedies and divorces. But as you said, life is hard, and these things happen, and our kids are going to go through them, and if we can show them it is part of life, and we continue, you know, speaking of the kids. And you know, I had to comment someone reach out to me that said, you know, you should stop talking about and I don't talk about

my ex, but I talked about my experiences. Um, and someone had said, you know, you shouldn't you shouldn't be talking about it because your kids are gonna hear this one day, And and I really sat with me to the point where again I was just like, Okay, I'm not gonna, I'm not I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk about anything anymore. But then I also realized I'm like, well, these are my experiences. I'm not dragging. I'm not saying

what he did. I'm not you know, but I really like I battled with that comment because I was really because I still I still feel like I can help people. But am I going to hurt? Am I hurting my kids? With this being my experience? You asking that question puts you in the level of taking your kids into account, which just means you're holding in a way where you're worried about your kids too, and that's going to safeguard it. The thing we often talk about is we don't want

to make our kids are counselors. You don't want to tell them the worst thing about you know, their father, and you also get to talk about your truth. And if you remind them people do bad things, it doesn't mean they don't have good parts of them, and it doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. But you still get to be a person and react to the mistakes that have hurt you. And I think if you teach the kids you know this is hard, but Mommy's got this and this is not anything to do with you guys,

in terms of it being your fault. It affects you. But this is something that mommy and daddy are working out. We got this. We're both gonna love you through it. And you know, kids are going to see a lot of things they shouldn't see later in life. You're gonna have that issue with your kids even further than your stuff. There's there's gonna be works than anything you say. You're gonna be worried about them looking at Yeah. True. Yeah.

So if there's if there's a takeaway for anyone listening right now that feels like they're stuck, that feels like there's no hope, that feels like there's you know that they're not going to get out of this pain that they're in. What's something that What's a little hope that we can that you can give them? Sure? Yeah, Well, just like you you know, we started with this idea that there is no night that went on forever. You know, there is a light, there is hope, there is love.

I mean, I always want people to know, no matter what you've been through, there is love after loss. There is life after loss, and that exists for you. And partly you've got to believe in that. And I've already heard from things you say you know that you believe love will continue through this. I hope so I don't. Then I'm just gonna be miserable. Like I fear it and I'm terrified of it, and I'm scared to be

in the next thing. But I also know that I do believe and I'll always believe in love because it not then what is there to believe in? Like? I love love, you know, it's it's our why, it's our reason to be, It's everything we do. And love exists in all of it. It exists in the lasses, that exists in the tragedy, it exists in your hope, and it exists in your future. And that's what we have to remember. The other thing I would tell people is this situation you're in is not you. It's what you're

going through. You don't have, you know, a broken head, you have a broken heart. It's supposed to be tough, and you were okay before this relationship, and you will be okay after this relationship. You're going to have lots of moments You're going to forget that every one of us us and I think it's to also know, you know, my specialty is grief and loss. Like the most horrible tragedies in life. But I also want people to know

it's not just about death. When you're going through divorce, when you're going through breakups and betrayal, those are some of the hardest moments and all grief counts. You know, when people ask me which is the worst loss, I always say yours. Yours is the worst loss. There's always going to be something in the world worse than you and what you're going through, But it doesn't mean you don't attend to your own pain, and that's what we have to do and to find ourselves again after loss.

I love that. David. Thank you for coming on and just sharing your words and um and your life. So we have so appreciate you and hopefully we can continue this conversation. Another epis said, thank you, and I'm telling you you talking about it not only helps you but helps others because we can feel pretty alone in our grief. So thank you for talking about it. Thank you, David. I appreciate you. Have a great day. Thank you too.

So that was awesome. I feel like hopefully that gives everybody, I mean even Catherine, you know, when I know you're not going through like a loss per se. But if you're having a bad day, to note there's always the night doesn't last forever, which I'd love that. David said that too, where it's there's always going to be light

at the end of the day. Yeah, I think that's great, and I think it's all of this has been really good for me in the sense that, like I think people forget you don't just grieve when you lose something like a death, you know, And it's like, I think you only think of grieving when you have a death. And I think it's like, you know, reminding everyone that people need time to grieve the marriage or whatever happened, I mean, whatever, that loss of a job, anything that

that you lost, Like, people need to grieve. So so if you gotta cry right now, cry it out, it's okay. But no, there will be light at the end of the tunnel. And I'm in the tunnel, but I would like to hold hands and let's all let's all go out and see the light. Just might take a minute, it might be a long tunnel. We'll see when I see a little I see a little light at the end. Love you guys, See you next week.