From Grief to Relief

to make me sound like I'm breaking up. That's what I felt. I was here and I still was worried it was me. I wasn't sure. I don't even I couldn't remember the great news that person has exited the chat. Yeah, exited the chat. She just not see No, no, I was totally exited. And it's really funny because funny Jewish guy.

I was like, you should listen to the podcast because I kind of mentioned and he was like, I'm never listening to wind Down ever again because you talked about a dude for like the person another dude, because he was like, oh no, he goes um he said, because he's like I thought you were going to be like he was amazed, like I said, you were He's like all he said was like he's a cool dude. But the other guy and he goes So I have to be um, do I have to you know, play hard

to get? But we had a conversation too, and that was a bummer because we we realized we're just going to be friends. It's funny Jewish guy, gonna listen to this one. Should we talk about him for a second so you can feel the love. Well, I mean now that we're just friends, because he's he still deserves now that we're just Yeah, so he's gone, all right by

funny Jewish. It's too fast. It's hard. It's hard, but I really because it was one of those things where like we could be like he could have been that stayed along well for a very long time in a chap But the reality is he lives in l A And I'm not moving and he's not moving, and so there's no point. By your face, is it really over

or do we just create some sort of boundary. No, it's it's like I have to like put up the like I even was like, hey, I have this great girl in l A. I'm going to set you up with because he's a great freaking guy. It's a very you have. It's interesting because we're from the same place, but you go very l A with that. Like the swapping of boyfriends and girlfriends is like so West Coast to me where I'm like like, I'm just like, no, that's girl coulde No, that's bro code And then I

played together. We just mayed out. M M no, ma'am, you can't wait. I'm sorry in your thirties nearing forties, so like me, Caitlin and Elizabeth, and I'm gonna do just to you now to Kavin, now that you're part of the single crew. But like, for example, Eliza, because I'm the dating app that we're all on, She's like, oh, yeah, I went out with him. He's great. He's like really like dad, but he's all here is He's not my person. So I'm like, you sure, cool? So I heard him.

I can't. This is like a fantasy and I can't. But why I just can't. I couldn't. But like even if like I mean Elizabeth, like I think they just kissed too, It's like it's not with my husband. Do we need to have a deep dive? Do we need to pause the recording? Maybe not in the queendom. Maybe we just wouldn't like sorry forgot your oh anyway, that's very West Coast to me. I'm just saying wouldn't. So, for example, this guy Adam said, that's fine, that's fine.

It's like he's cool, he deserves it. He got a name. Yeah you know what, honey, Jewish guy, boring Jewish guy, never got his name mentioned you matters. But like he's a great guy. So I'm like I even DMed one of my girlfriends and was like, hey, um, you know this is a great guy. I would She said, well,

why don't you want to be with him? I was like I would in a heartbeat, But like he's got a daughter, he'll never leave, and I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not going to move either, because I'd be unfair for my co parenting situation and the kids and so and to the queendom and to the queendom. So I'm like, hey, I'm gonna, you know, you should y'all shouldn't meet. And I don't think that's weird because it's like yeah, because then when they get married. She you're going to be

in the match. And I think that if you'll had like a serious relationship for a long time, that seems a little weirder. But not you've been on wet two dates with the guy. Yeah, I don't think it's that weird. But she kissed him passionately. Now your new friend's gonna listen to this episode and she's going to But again, it's he's not my person. So like, for example, if I meet someone, I'm like, oh, I think actually, like I know, I was just talking about this to one

of my other girlfriends too. He where she was like, I don't think he's my person. Like if I see someone on on RYE or whatever, I'd be like, oh, Catherine, Like, I think he'd be a good match for you. I'm gonna send him Catherine's way. Even if no, I like the idea. I think I love what you're saying, and I like the vetting now, And I also think it takes a great deal maturity to know it's not your person and to go you'd be better suited with this person.

The passionate makeout is where I'm like, well, maybe leave that part. Do you want to mention that Leo, your dog is here. It sounds like I just bet you. For those of them not watching, Yeah, no, Leo just totally bit me. Um okay, Leo's evidendency to do that. So this is where I go to um, which I'm going to talk about another topic later, but I want to get to Catherine's topic about she wants to bring

something up. Well, I have a question, okay, answer okay, And I legitimately want to know, commitate Leo over on that couch or he's going to have to go on his great because he's fighting the chords in this episode will un very surely if that keeps happening. Okay. If you have a problem with someone, okay, okay, someone, if

the person is on this couch, we need to discontinue. Okay, don't worry, not even like a great not even a friend really, But if you have a problem with someone, do you address it, do you let it go, or do you let it fester? It depends on the depth of the relationship. Okay, not that deep. Can we go a little bit more. I'm gonna go mark here on here, Okay, can you give us a little more detail because I think that depends. I need more on what, So which

one I would do? Okay? So not a friend, someone that came into your life in a situation that you wouldn't have loved to have it have happened, but it did. Um, So you try to be the person's friend. You actually like the person, seems like a nice person, um, but you have a problem with something that that person has done. Okay. So I'm an eight, right, let me just let me answer my own question. Okay, let me answer. That's a very thing to do as a two. I want to

hold you as an eight. You'd like to confront yourself. This seems a very unbrand Absolutely, Okay, I'm the person I like to confront it. Like, here's what you've done. I don't like it. Let's address it and theoretically move on. Okay, moving not part, It's part for person. No, it is. That's what I'm learning about me. So I think that's the thing. So like, so you let it faster and you don't move on? I do all three? Should I should? I rewrote us. Back to the last episode. We talked

to Lisa in her book Forgiving what You Can't Forget. Yeah, I ordered it, Okay, and realized I was already reading one of her books. Um, but this is this is the part that I struggle with. Okay, So I'm learning that this is one of the get biggest struggles, well all of it. So I think I think God's working on me a lot in a lot of ways. This is the one thing that's just like killing me lately. Okay, So it'll fester a lot. So then I'm like, no, I shouldn't address No, don't be an eight, don't do it,

don't be an unhealthy, don't do it. And then I go and I attack you go hard? Yeah, I go hard and not very nice. I read the messages. You weren't not nice, you direct, very direct. I think it was an emotional situation that it was too premature for anybody to be a part of. Yes, I'd agree with that. And so your emotions were more heightened because of the situation that you were in, and it bothered you and your like your emotions were part of it. And that's okay.

And I'm assuming that this is a situation you didn't you're you weren't asking to be a part was not asking to be a part of it, or wasn't aware you were a part of maybe even yeah, not at the beginning. Okay, So I try, but my emotions are all over the place. Okay, so again I try not to be the eight, but I did. I was here and there like I was mean and eight and whoever's just like super nice, We're awesome. I don't know what number that is, you know, just like a two that's you. Yeah, yeah,

so you know you go back and forth. But here's the thing. So now I'm gonna point where I went after but also apologized. I'm very much an apologizer, like I'm a like, let's be direct, let's address it. I'll apologize for what I did wrong. You apologize for what you did wrong, and we can move on. Problem is is the other person was an eight and two eights going after each other didn't go very well. Um, and so now I'm in a situation I cannot let it go.

She got unfollowed and blocked, blocked, unfollowed, all of the above. Now, I will be honest, I did block at some point too, but I am blocked, but I am forever blocked. You block someone and you're like, yes, kidding, that happened to me with actually a friend of ours that I was like, by the way, I'm unblocking you. By the way I to top I'm blacky. I already had to do that once. So it's like, by the way, I blocked you and I'm blocking them now, I'm like forever blocked. So are we?

I want to say one thing, please, I'm a I am a direct communicator, but I'm a soft communicator. Okay. I don't feel like you should apologize ever, in part of that was me, not lea part of me. I really, I do strongly believe that when you're apologizing to someone, it needs to be for no other reason than to just clear your own air and not expect an apology

and return. Oh so I know, and I know I knew it was going to hit somewhere with you because I you were like, so I apologize, and then I wanted her to apologize, and then we were just going to move forward. So I get stuck in this place that I feel like I apologize a lot. Well, you own things I do like I want. I love to own too. But what I've learned in all my ownership it is not everybody. Not everybody likes to own, and not everybody can own. They're on a different path they

could be. It's not a lesser path or a shorter path or a slower path, which is different. And I think we cannot expect the ownership from the other person, and we can't apologize to have them own. We can only apologize to own and know that we've done what we can do in this situation. Yes, which in theory I agree with. I know and can know what we

all say. I mean, listen, also me, I had similar situations where I'm like, okay, so I'm sorry, and then I just give that dramatic pause and tea up like no, go ahead, go ahead. I just feel like there was nothing that. The only thing that I will say to this is I didn't feel like you really truly had to apologize as many times as you did. Yeah, I know I apologized a lot, like I think because my emotions were so up and down. That's why I felt

like I had to apologize. I mean enough. That person even said but that's the thing, and that's not fair because she's oversepped a boundary too. Yes, I mean, we both over stepped boundaries for sure, But like, you don't apologize for your emotions, like if I'm acting irrational, mean, bitchy whatever. I can say I'm sorry for that, but then don't apologize again and again to say I'm sorry again. True, But what happens is when the emotions are up and down,

you go from yes, I agree with you. The problem is now is the last thing that I sent, which was nice, I was blocked. So it's like out there in the air with like the meanest things ending between both of us, and I cannot let it go because you okay, can you not let it go because some she doesn't like you now? Or do you feel like you did something wrong, or because you just like what

what part of it? Do not? Can you not let go because for me, you like I don't I don't like to have Like I'm trying to think of a situation where it's like I don't like the energy and I don't like to know that, like I'm a the new but I'm not bad, you know what I mean? Like I didn't I didn't do anything wrong, Like I apologize, like come on, let's all like it. So here's the other side of that. Like I live in a small town,

the woman lives in my town. We have a lot of similar things that we do I have to see her so it is on let me devil's advocate for her for four seconds, even though I'm definitely on your team. That's fine, I'm here for that, I know, but you know I'm like a team team. I'm just wondering because I've gotten to a point before where sometimes the blocking is just a boundary of like, no more noise for a second. Why sort this out and take the pieces that I can take, own the pieces that I can take.

So maybe the blocking and the un following is just her way of going. I just need like a four minute break. This has gotten heated and I want to be able to have a different conversation astion with you, but just not right now. Probably I could see that that's that's the healthy version of her, the other this person. So I don't know if she's healthy enough to healthy and unhealthy, But everything the unhealthy is because of who

it's connected with. And I think again, I what I would love to see in this situation for you is for you to stand in your truth and go, yeah, you were emotional, you were a little up and down, but it was also a very unfair that happened to you, a very unfair thing that happened to you, the timing of it all, it was not cool. And then what

she followed up with was not great. So the fact that you're dealing with that emotion on top of other emotional stuff you're going through in your life, like stand in your truth and go you know what, I'm like, I'm not the bad person in this and like, yeah, I owned you, already owned you owned your stuff. That's amazing. And now that's on her to not, you know, to to maybe do what Christ and saying, or she doesn't have the like too much for her emotionally too so

once she may have to do the same thing. I get that, but God, that drives me crazy. I hate having Oh I hate I want to be very clear. I don't like the feeling you're having. And I know that we have a lot of mutual friends ish and it literally kills me. All I think about is like, well, what did she say to so and so? Because I know that she has said things not nice to pet, you know, and so it's like I probably have too though, you know. So It's just like that drives me crazy.

You just have to let a little time, in a little space, in a little air I think, yeah, because something very similar, and what are you going to do with well today, y'all gonna make you shut out on that you did not email her? Well, I'm blocked, and she didn't need high stuff. All of the things I would have been by the way, all of them. I sent a little message. There was not an apology through a window. It was not an apology, but it was kind of wrapping it up in a bow like, look,

we have to see each other kind of thing. And it was kind and it was ever. But I'm still blocked. Where did you send it? I texted her and it's great, it's still blocked. Oh she didn't get it? Can friend? Well, here's can't you just do it at one of the kids practices that you might be at? Yeah, nothing like a juice box of soccer practice and confrontation, which is like, yeah, I don't know, so yeah, I might have to do

in person. I don't know. I haven't decided. Um, okay, I want to put a pin in this conversation, okay, because I think we need to sit with it for a hot minute. I'm going to block it and I'm gonna follow it, and I'm gonna childish we've all done it. We've all done it. I can't even echo enough how I've had this exact the very similar situation. It's like one of my friends was like, I can't believe she blocked it, and followed I was like, well, I kind

of did it first. I don't think that's childish that were all done it. We get emotional, we get that's the first reaction, be like I'm I'm blocking you know

what I mean, Like I'm blocking them. It's like it's the first emotional reaction that we have, and it's really our first line of defense in the social media and life we live in to get this person like out of your orbit for a minute, right, I mean it is a boundary, Like I get that, Like I did it so I don't have to see her stuff, right right, Okay, we're gonna put a little pin in it and we're gonna we're gonna come back because and talk about that.

But first we're gonna get an incredible guest on. Her name is Rebecca Wolf and she actually um, she's a freelance writer, UM since she was sixteen. She actually helped write some of the Chicken Suit for The Teenage Soul, which if you're our age, I know, it was like one of the iconic, iconic. Um. She's got a new memoir out right now. It's called All of This, a Memoir of Death and Desire um, and it's basically about well,

we'll have her talk about it. But she she asked for a divorce and then her then her husband got pancreatic stage four cancer, so she end up staying with them. And anyways, we're gonna get her on blizz first, let's take a break. So, Rebecca, we are so excited to have you on Wine Down. UM. I mean the girls were, um, just kind of debriefing before we started recording. And first of all, the soup books, Oh my goodness, I mean

that was like our childhood. Yes, I love that. I like literally iconic pieces of literature of them at home, and I like them like so many copies for the teacher, Soul, for my heart, soul, for my soul soul. I was like, sup me up, animal vegetarian, very ironic. Yeah, same same. Um. How did you start writing on those books? Um? I So when the first book came out, which I believe was like around nine four, I was in middle school. I submitted a story to the like you could submit

them in those days. So I submitted a story that I wrote like in my ninth grade English class to the second Chicken Soup for the Teenage Soul Too, and it was published and then the woman who ran it kind of reached out to me and she's like, do you have anything else? And I was like, are you kidding me? I'd like, you know, I've been writing my whole, you know, fourteen years of being a person. So I sent like a bunch of other stories and poems and

she ended up hiring me. So I wrote. I wrote for the book series through high school and then I didn't even go to college. I went straight to work for the book and then I toured on Their Behalf and like spoke about writing through trauma like two teens, and um, you know, it's kind of like a spokesperson for the for the Teenage Soul books and the Team

Love series books which came out afterwards. And yeah, it was just like kind of a flukey thing, like I submitted a story for extra credit and it turned into like a career. I deferred my college admission and never went to college. Very fulfilling, though it has to be right. I mean I'm assuming that's not just normal work, that's really powerful work. Yeah. And I was, you know, I was eighteen, so I had like an adult job at eighteen, Like I went to work every day in an office

and I edited. I I also go strow and edited too, So I was doing way more than just you know, writing you know, a few stories, like I was actually working full time. Um, and then I and then I went from there into freelancing. And I moved to London for a year and wrote wrote you know, travel stuff

and music stuff, and I just sort of kept going. Um. So yeah, so I've been I've been writing about my life for you know, twenty five years, and now you have your new memoir out, which that out in August, and um it's called All of This And was that I mean, first of all, I'm so excited to get that book because I just I love, um the fact that you know, you were speaking in your life and you're being vulnerable and and is the book mostly like

give me like the elevator pitch of the book for sure? Um. So I have been I've been writing on the internet my whole through my whole twenties. I had a blog called Girls Gun Child that I started in two thousand five when I had my first child, a son, UM. I got pregnant with him really young, didn't have a community, so I started writing about it online. And this was like in the beginning, I was like sort of an

early one of the early mommy bloggers. UM and I did that forever for years, For over ten years, I wrote about my experience as a mother. UM found an incredible community online. Have been writing ever since. And I, you know, had had been writing, had had written about

my marriage. But you know, I I wrote mainly metaphorically, so if something massive happened to us, I would write, you know, about it more in it, you know, symbolically that I would you know, really detail and flesh out the issues that we're having in our marriage, because we really from the beginning struggled our marriage. You know, we were barely we barely need each other when I married him, UM, I got pregnant, we looped to Vegas. We sort of like tried to make it work, kept trying to make

it work. Had you know, good moments and good years, well good months, good weeks, UM, but it was mainly, you know, it was mainly a pretty tumultuous, toxic marriage that just got worse and worse as the years went on. And when I was finally and I finally said to him, I want to divorce. I don't love you anymore. I can't be in this marriage anymore. It's it's killing me,

Like I I felt that way. I was at the point where I was like, if I don't get out of this marriage, like something happened to me, because it was it was it was miserable. How many years at that point. We we've been married for over thirteen years at that point, yeah, yeah, so and we had four children, UM, the oldest being thirteen, right, because I was pregnant when

I married him. Um, And he was like okay, And so I was actively looking into, you know, getting another place and doing all the things that you do when you're separating. When he suddenly had horrible stomach ache, horrible like keeled over, needed to go to the hospital. Went to the hospital. Um, they diagnosed him in the e r with stage four pancreatic cancer that had already metastasized into his liver and lymp notes. So he was it was at the point of no return, like it was

a terminal diagnosis. Um. And we weren't even speaking when he was in the hospital, like we hadn't we hadn't been speaking the entire week. UM. So you can imagine, you know, being a situation wanting desperately to get out of your marriage finally saying I'm done, I'm out, actively pursuing divorce, and your husband is suddenly diagnosed with terminal cancer. So UM, that phone call. All the feelings that I felt, you know, when he called me from the hospital obviously

were very complicated. UM. And I, you know, my parents came up. I went straight to the hospital as soon as I could, and I essentially stayed with him too, care of him for his his the four months that he between diagnosis and death. It was four months, and I was, you know, I was with him the whole time, took care of him. UM. Navigating that as somebody who wanted to leave him was UM, you know, it was it was a lot. It was trying to find closure.

It was trying to trying to you know, kind of go back and and create as loving and supportive and ending as I could give him. Um. Obviously there was a lot of unresolved anger and and there were feelings of relief knowing that he wasn't going to be in my life anymore. Um, you know, which took me years to feel like I could say out loud, because you know, when someone dies, you're not supposed to feel relieved. You're supposed to be, you know, feel deep grief, which is

which is what I felt too. And obviously, I, you know, wanted my children no longer have a father, and I would think it was my grief was there was a lot of my grief was was you know, was for them, but I didn't want to be with him anymore. I didn't want him to die, but I didn't want to be with him anymore. So a lot of my experience, what my experience was after his death was similar to what you know, a woman coming out of a divorce

might feel, which is I'm free, Oh my god. Like I got married at twenty three years old, right like I had four kids by the time I was thirty. I was thirty seven year old widow, and I was like, I have a body and this is I won life. And I know how fast a person can go from me healthy to dead? And what am I doing? How

what am I? What do I want? This is like, so, I, you know, my experience after he died was really sort of in midlife you know, midlife midlife adjacent um, you know, sort of catharsis and awakening um that I don't think I would have had if he died. I don't think I would have had even necessarily if we just divorced. I think it was really a combination of feeling free and alive. Right, Um, So that's what my books about. My book is about my experience navigating his death, our marriage,

and my life after he died. Morning losses in all the ways, Yeah, and just all the different ways. Grief is so complicated, and we don't talk about that. We don't talk about the relief elements. We don't talk about you know, sex after death and like how the two are connected. Um, you know, we don't. We don't. There's so many things that we're not supposed to talk about, specifically as women and mothers. Right, Like, you're a mother and you're supposed to be You're supposed to be the harbor,

not the ship. You're supposed to be the safe place. You're not supposed to explore. You're not supposed to talk about your complicated feelings. You're supposed to make sure that everyone else feels held and taken care of, and you're

supposed to put yourself last. And I think, you know, I spent my marriage and my you know, the last however many years of my life doing that, And you know, I think for me, I was like, you know what, I there has to be a way for me to be able to have to feel like I'm alive in my own life too. Um So that's also, you know, been the journey. I'm probably gonna step over this or land mind myself asking you this question, but I'm gonna

hear me out when I say this. So when you say that, like you felt relief when he um when he eventually passed, was there a piece of you that felt shame for feeling that because of your kids? I mean, I mean my relief that my that relief that I was feeling was was tied to my own feelings, my feelings for them. I was not relieved that they no

longer had a father. I was relieved. I just want to make that clear, because when I heard you, I'm like, because in my mind, I'm like, you know, we us to have I'm like, yes, I'm so happy to be out of my marriage, and I wouldn't um. Okay, I'll say this, Like my first abuser, he committed suicide, he died. I felt relief. But where I struggled was I'm like, but he I felt bad for saying I had a relief because he had children. And so what I just did.

And when I heard that, my first initial thought was I don't want someone to go what you wished your husband to die? And now now they don't have kids. Then now that they don't, they don't have a dad, you know, So that's kind of like how I just and I just want to make sure that like I want to make sure that you're like you're not you don't get like attack to be like she wished the father of her children. I never I never wish that he died. I never said that. I never was wishing relieved.

But I could still think people could take that and like run with it, right. But this has been my whole beat with this book, is that when you say you're relieved to not have somebody in your life anymore, that doesn't mean you're wishing for them to be dead. I think we we we we automatically turn this into

this black and white thing. It's nuanced. There's so many layers to this, and I think, you know, the oversimplification of this conversation is the problem, and it's the reason why I want to have the conversation, because it's valid to feel whole sources of feelings at the same time. Just because you're feeling relieved doesn't mean that you want them dead. Just because you're feeling sad doesn't mean you

want to them to come back and be with you. Yeah, And I hear you so much because I mean, I remember I got the call when my first abuser commits suicide, and my first reaction was relief, And then I had stayed with shame for so many years having that first reaction because I'm like I should, but I did. I felt safe, you know, for the first time in a very long time, and like I shouldn't feel bad for having that as a part of like the grieving process.

Oh my gosh, of course, Well, all relationships are so complicated. We feel relieved when we get out of relationships, right like we're in a bad relationship or we quit a job, we feel relieved. That doesn't mean that there are other feelings had, like the it's this thing with death. We just we look at death as being this thing that we're not allowed to have feelings about except these certain feelings. But we allow ourselves to have the complicated feelings about

all other kinds of loss. That's just because death is so final, we're not allowed to. We feel bad for having complex human feelings. And everyone has those feelings. I'm not like the first person to have them. I'm just I want to have a conversation about nuance is because I think it's important. I think it's important for you not to feel bad for having that feeling. I think that's so. That's so just like, of course you would feel that way, and I think assuming that you wouldn't

is I think it's problematic. I think that we, you know, we should give each other space for having true feelings about you know, death well, And I think too, it's like, you know, I know someone one of several people who have had people that they were still married to who had been sick and then when they passed, they feel relief even I mean, you know, it's like I mean it's relief for their spouse or it's relief for you know, having to care for the spouse, you know, and I'm

sure they feel guilty for that too, But I think that it's you know, very um. I think it's just way more common. Like you said, I think we just don't talk about it enough. Well, that is also something that I want to talk about because caretaking is so hard. It is so hard, and when you're taking care of somebody, regardless of what you're relationship is, if they're the love of your life, spending I mean I spent. I was

taking care of him for four months. It was gruesome and brutal and horrific, and regardless of how I felt about him, it would have been gruesome and horrific. And you know when when people I remember at the end, the doctors kept trying to give him He wasn't even speaking at this point, and they doctors kept trying to give him chemo pills. And I had said to them at one point, I was like, what are you doing. He's not even responsive. You're trying to put a pill

down his throw he can barely swallow. And they're like, well, you know, some people want more time, and I was like, more time with him, just lie like for what I think this Like the prolonging of the death is not the point. And I think for so many caretakers too, It's like, even if you love somebody that your entire life revolves around taking care of them. It is a

full time job. It is so overwhelming on so many different respects, not not even taking under consideration when you also have children and you're taking care of a dying spouse while also taking care of four children, like it is, how could you not feel relieved for that to be over? That is it's excruciating and for everybody involved, it was excruciating for him. He was in paying the entire time. For my kids, I mean, it was awful for them

to see their father like that. I mean, he was a complicated man when he was before he was dying. For all of us, it wasn't just me that had you know he was he was a person that had you know, it was a person um. But yeah, I felt relieved. They felt relieved when he died because he was no longer in pain, because it was you know, it was you know, I, I and and all of that is valid too. I mean we we I held

space with them for all of their feelings too. I was very honest to them about how I was feeling, and they were very honest with me, and we had all different feelings and we still do four years later, and we talked about them and it doesn't mean that we don't love him. Um. To have you know, unresolved anger,

all these things. It's so important to talk about this and for children to feel like they can talk about this, and for us not to shame each other or feel guilty for having real feelings about people who are human and complicated just like we are. Christen, you're having some you wanna you want to speak on it or she's new to me. I'm very rarely speechless, so UM, I'm

trying really hard to frame it. I'm a very open feeler and I'm a very open dialogue person, and grief is something that has just inundated me for probably the last year and a half. I lost five people in eleven months, and one of them was my dad and that was a year ago. So I'm trying to collect myself for a second, just to be able to frame this in a way that is sharing, um, but also not narrating completely somebody else's story. UM. But the relief, it's like I've been in the depths of grief and

trauma therapy. I have gone to a grief intensive like I've really been in this, like I'm feeling at all. I'm talking about it. But oh guys, and I'm not a pretty crier, like, oh my gosh, I'm literally wrapping my arms around you. I I know who needs a pretty crier. I don't want to pretty prior here. Well, I sit next to someone that could really wouldn't any award there. I'm pretty pretty car. I got a big vein that comes through my I don't worry. Yeah, Katherine,

there there's there's my tough love. Always I've seen a ruggly cry let me should usually just look like a movie scene. No, I just it hit, like hit this super soft part of my heart when you talked about the relief that comes with it, because my it's not for a lack of onian. I am really emotional, Like this one really got me, you guys. I watched my mom caretake my dad for so long. Um, he did not take care of himself. Drugs and alcohol. We don't

talk about that. So that's hard for me because I'm the trailblazer and like I say, what is true and what is real, and the relief is real. It is so real, And that has been part of what I've had to talk about a lot, is just the unexpected, like it is. I didn't have the fairy tale. I didn't bury my hero. In a lot of ways, I feel like and I don't need any skepticism from anybody online, so help me God. In a lot of ways, I felt like I buried a child. Yeah, I grew him.

I dealt it with his and his unfairness and the addiction and all of the tidal waves that come with the addiction. And the struggle I'm having recently is watching my mom find the freedom and she doesn't not deserve that. It looks really crazy sometimes, like I can obviously tell she's going through something. Um But when you said that, I was just like I was trying to fight back the tears and I was like, Okay, I'm gonna table this and probably lose it when we get off of here.

But man, like everything you were saying was like a sentence. It wasn't even like it was from me. It was like straight from God, straight to me, like the most seen words of what that experience has been. And I've never felt shameful for feeling the way I because I've just owned it for too long now. Like I started at seven, I just turned forty in January, so I'm

thirteen years deep in therapy and owning it. Alcoholism and all of the ripple effects that has on everyone, the lost relationships that are like you know, consequence of that, um healthy boundaries Like I love boundaries. We talked about that. I keen love boundaries because it's what has helped me preserve the things I'm earning and the things I'm doing and working so hard for. But the freedom and relief of death is really hard to navigate, and it comes

with a lot of big feelings. Especially I am a Christian, Jesus loving person, and so I felt really for him. Almost the first thing I said to my mom is he has all the answers to all the questions and he just gets to take a minute, like the most worrisome, wound up, anger, rage filled, unpredictable person and now he has the answers. And I felt relief, and I felt like there's you know, ways now that we all can navigate and commune and connect differently because we have the

opportunity to do so. Without the big black cloud. Yeah, the unpredictability. It's a lot that and that feeling like that you're having is this is this is like, this is all I want to talk about because it's so important to validate that those feelings because they're so like that's that's. First of all, I think it's far more common to have that feeling than not to because all of our relationships are complicated. But when you bury somebody that that was you know, that was toxic for you

and a lot of reasons. That doesn't mean you don't love them, that that you didn't love them, but that I mean we everyone in my house, what we would walk on eggshelves, all of us for years and when that went away and you and I think also, I don't. I think there's this other part of grief when somebody dies and you're not just grieving them, if you're grieving the relationship because you realize how much easier it is to live without them. I think that is a very

real grief. I think that is a very valid grief to have when you realize, oh my god, like this person made my life really hard and now they're gone in my life. Isn't his heart, and that doesn't mean that there isn't intense sadness that they're gone, but recognizing that you what your life looked like with them in it versus with them out of it, and that a lot of that is easier and not harder, which is the assumption, right. The assumption is that this person is

gone and your life is in pieces. So what happens when the person is gone in your life actually feels like you can finally put it back together. That's that's so valid and I think extremely common, and we don't talk about that, so we just sort of you know, my my experience navigating this, I felt really alone because I couldn't talk about this because, you know, is having all of these feelings that I couldn't share publicly that I couldn't even admit to myself without feeling bad about

having them because I get to be alive. I get to be the one who watches my kids grow up. And there's so much guilt tied in that too, and being the survivor. And I'm sure your mom has those feelings too, like where she still gets to be here, but the idea, like the relief that you have for her like is so that is. That's love. That's love, right. The and and the relief that somebody isn't no longer in your life is also loved because when you love somebody,

you tolerate them in ways you wouldn't otherwise. So I think a lot of our relationships with people, especially family members, that we love but also make our lives really hard. I think there is relief when they die because we love them, not because we don't. Because I stayed with him for years because there was love there, and I tolerated him for years because there was love there, and I stuck with him, and I nursed him, and I was there with him to the end because there was

love there. So it comes from a place of love, the relief because I couldn't just leave, even when I wanted to. You can't just leave your father, right, he's your like the feel like there's this feeling where you you you can breathe and be in your body and in your life without this person that you that you didn't know how to to leave when he was in it right any more, in the loss of them before

they're dead. In so many ways too, that is a whole other part we My marriage was over long before he died, and I had already mourned him as my husband. I had already grieved our marriage long before he died, so that was already done. My grief was tied up in my children really for the first year, and I didn't even give myself a chance to think about how I was stealing until I knew that they were okay. As soon as I was like, okay, they're okay, now

it's my turn to figure out how I am. And I think it's something to be said to like, the grief shows up all different parts, and I mean, I'm still like grieving my ex husband, and there are moments that just say randomly come up and it's like their grief is is not just like all right, I'm over

it and I'm done. It's like you're still because to me, it's like no one could have told me that it was a death at the time, because it's like that was you know, he was gone disappear, you know, I mean, like you didn't disappear, but like when you went to rehab the first time, I'm like I couldn't talk to him, I couldn't see him. It was like to me, it was like this like death and like he's just boom gone and granted, yeah, he's you know, very much alive.

And in me and my kid's life is it's still like it's still grief whether you lose someone or or you don't you know. And so I think you're in a podcast with your friend and then this sweet thing comes on starts talking about death and grief just hits you like a TidalWave because it happened. But that's how grief is too, and that's the thing. It's like, it's just it's not like you spend a year of crying

and then you're over it. Like every look my my my kids, my daughters, my twin daughters, their birthdays on Tuesday, whenever there's a birthday, whenever I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm like waiting for it to hit me and it'll all be like at Trader Joe's, like getting pasta and like just start because it does. It's like it finds you when you least expected, or when like you're triggered by a smell or a song or like

something it's and then that's it. And I think that grief again, like it doesn't end like I'm going to carry this. My children are going to carry this with

us forever. We're always going to have you know, we're always going to grieve him, and it's always going to be complicated, and it's going to change, and it's fluid, and you know, there have been plenty of times where I've missed him and wished he was here, and then there have been other times where I was like, thank god, he isn't all of that can live together, it's all, you know, it's a both end of life. It's the

carrying the grief and the gratitude at once. Totally. It's my ampersand on my hand um to have oath is. It's funny we talked about that last week, like you can't you can't time triggers. That's another like big thing to you, just you you can't time when when it's going to come up. But I wanted to run out of this room just now. Did you see me looking

for exit strategy behind you? I think it's just it's so interesting though too, because I'm like the you have the relief and things like man like sometimes would be so easy but then also easier with certain things if but then then then you also struggle with this this side effect too of like you know, not having the parents in your life as well. So it's like it's it's hard. I think it's just hard, you know, I think it's all. I think it's all hard. I think

all I think. I think it's all hard. And I you know, there are times, you know, a lot of my friends are divorced when they're like, oh my god, and they're dealing with custody stuff and the drama dealing with an X, which I don't I don't know what that's like, and it sounds really awful to me. Um, And and you know, I I think in a lot of ways is harder to navigate all of the stuff with a partner that's no longer a partner, former partner.

And but then there are also times where you know, something happens with my kids and there's I want to like text him or oh my god, look at her kids or you know, and like that that I can't do that, and then it's harder for me. You know, it's like we're it's it's it's you know it, It's it's hard. It's all hard. Marriage is hard, divorce is hard, death is hard. I I you know, I just you know, I think they're all hard and complicated, and no one's nothing is harder than the you know, for the other,

and no grief is worse than another person's grief. I think it's it's all just really hard and really complicated, and there's nothing wrong with any of the feelings that any of us are having about any of the stuff. It's it's it's all of this, which is probably that's why it's all of us. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, hence the name. I mean, that's kind of my whole beat, right, It's like, how do we how do we carry all these feelings and the same basket without feeling bad about it?

And I think that's huge too, because there's so many people that love to shed their opinions when on things that they haven't gone through it, or that's that's it's that's that's a tricky basket. Yeah, And I think I think a lot of that comes from internal shame. I think all all shame, you know, comes from internal shame, the way we shame others. I don't think people who don't feel internal shame shame other people. Um, I think I think it's very much. I think it's it's you know,

we're talking about triggers. I think a lot of people being honest about their experience is very triggering for others. And look, I've been writing on the internet for twenty years. I've you know, I've heard it all. I've been judged, criticized, shamed,

you know, my entire career. So I think for me, Um, I don't know that I could have written a book like this if I didn't have like, uh, you know, have experience navigating that and sort of you know, getting to the other side, have been saying, you know what this is, I don't feel bad. I don't and you can't make me feel bad if I don't feel bad.

And that's sort of the thing, right, It's like when you get to a point when you're like, I've really I've really done the work and explored these feelings and I feel like this is where I met I'm at with them, and I'm okay with that that if people other people aren't, like, okay, that's fair, so fair. I will hold space for your feelings, but they're not mine,

you know. Doesn't that wrap up a weird talking Catherine, Um Well, Rebecca, thank you so much for coming on and I'm talking about something that you know obviously, UM, a lot of people feel and they feel I'm sure a lot of shame around. So UM, thank you for for your words and what you what you've done for not only my middle school heart but my adult heart now. So thank you so much for having me. I appreciate

you all of course. Alright, alright bye, Well some of the stuff, UM, lots of emotions we have, like from my soul. I couldn't even hide it from no, but that's that's okay. I'm like, you should you should feel And I was gonna like, ugly weep, could you hear it? Like I couldn't swallow the tears? Yeah, I was like I was. I was going to intersect because I'm always like I remember when I can say it now. But

I was on Red Table Talk. I don't know the premier day yet, but when I see someone cry, I want to immediately be like, talk to me, what's the emotion coming up? Because I saw Jada start to get literia and I just stared at her until there was a breaking conversation to be like do you want to talk about that? Because it's like I was like, I want to like, I don't want you to shove it.

I don't want you to push it down a minute too because I was like she can see me, and I am like like like here sending out back here, Holy Macron. But we're going to continue this conversation and also we're gonna unpin Catherine's conversation. So um, meet us on the after show