Between Contractions

Wind Down with Janet Kramer, an impart radio podcast.

We're still here, somehow, someway, We're still here.

The baby's still in my belly for now, for now, I mean as Sarah isn't a studio, our beloved Sarah Cruise is in the studio for me, or as I like to call her, Sarah Gretzky. That's what I have you as on my phone.

I know.

But she just felt my contraction because I was trying. I was like, I'm having a contraction. I'm having a contraction, and you felt the difference.

Yeah, but it's freaking me out.

You're gonna be okay.

I don't know. I've been so stressed the last week.

But I feel like, why do people get so freaked out about because I know a few of the people that are so freaked about babies and bellies, like even you like to this morning when I put your hand on me, I was like, oh my god, feel this I feeling.

It's not as bad as when you see it and looks like an alien coming out of it.

Really was like that is he like this pumping me?

Yeah?

Literally? Yeah. I think it's when you can't relate, like when you talk to try and talk to guys about like a period, you know, no, Like that's why it freaks me out because I can't really like because I don't. I didn't pay attention And.

Do you want to you want to be a mom though?

Oh obviously yeah, But like I just it's just it went from like soft and then it got hard and then I'm afraid you're going to pee it out?

That's right? Remember weird? Oh God, Sarah and I went to remember when we went to Vegas that was so much fun Heart Radio Festival, and.

She goes, I was just tak care of her daughter.

You were on a golf trip. Wow.

Want to hear it?

Yeah, with your dad, that's right. So no, you weren't home taking care of the kid.

A very expensive golf trip.

Yeah. And so but Sarah is like just standing out the window. I thought she was going to have something like really just like special to say I was.

I was literally, No, you went to the bathroom and then you came out, and while you were in there, I was just thinking.

Yeah, and this is what this is a thought that came to Sarah's brain. Would you like to say, ut mes, do you actually want to resay what you said, or I.

Mean, I literally stand by it. I was curious if you ever felt or if someone has ever pooped out their baby.

What And that's exactly my response back, what why would you think you can't poop? First of all, your hole, your poop hole is different than your vaginal.

I understand that. However, it's all just I don't know. You're squatting. Things are happening. Don't you like pee yourself sometimes and you don't.

Know, well.

Sometimes, yeah, that can happen.

I just didn't know, you know, saying it's all attached, So I don't know.

So like when I'm so like when I'm pushing like out my poop, you're afraid that I'm gonna push my baby out?

Yes?

No, Mark, why are you nodding head over there?

I just see what she's saying. That's all I'm trying to think, because I get it.

Yeah, you're using the same muscles to push out your poop and your baby. Well, isn't it like not your babies can come through your hiking up?

She literally just put her leg on.

I just feel like it's like ready position.

I mean, he is had down.

There's news reports of women giving birth and bathroom stalls.

That's crazy.

I assume that's what happened.

They pushed too hard.

I mean, you're a lot stronger than you think.

It is true.

That is true.

You know what I would love if you pooped out your baby. That would be great. I just think that would be just a great three sixty karma. I mean switching gears.

Thank you, thank you.

It's obviously been a total devastation here in California with the wildfires, and our hearts go out to all the family members and the houses and just everything that Northern California and here in southern California that you know, people have been dealing with the fires. Sarah has an interesting story that happened to her regarding the fires.

Yeah, it was crazy. So the night before was actually the shooting up Orlin, which is I can't even devastating, but.

I live there. The shooter lived a block away from No.

Yeah, so ty well, boyfriend, So did you ever know did you ever meet.

Him or never met him and didn't know his mom or anything? But I know the house, like when I saw the house, like, oh yeah, walk past that house walking my dog every single day.

Oh my god, I haven't seen the news around the parents, how were they did?

The main thing with this guy seems to be although now high school friends if they're saying he was aggressive in high school, but a lot of people as saying that he was a marine and when he got back he was not the same anymore. And we all know that different people react differently to the shovel of trauma. And he was infantry like machine gun, hamler like he was in it. Yeah, So I don't know how much you blame the mom how much? Like I think there's a natural instinct to blame him or the mom or

It's just sad.

It's just so sad all around.

Said, Yeah, but ties from there and his family lives there. So the night before we woke up to I mean, I had fifteen miss calls he had and you pan it. I mean, I don't now, I know what my mom would always say, like, you know, when you get a phone call in the middle of the night, she's just never and I'm like, who could be what could be going on? And it was his mom calling us, you know, are you okay? As everyone okay telling us about the shooting.

Wayne Gretzky is standing out the front.

Yes, his whole family showed up to our apartment, which is not very big, and they're like, we had to evacuate the fun and it was just like, oh, it's just so much, and it's one of those things where you never think it could happen, and then all of a sudden, like, I'm making coffee. It was three day out.

Did how does Wayne Gretzky like his coffee?

He?

Oh, my god, So.

You have to make him breakfast? Do know?

They were actually the best because Ty and I were like, uh, make yourselves at home.

By the way, it wasn't just Wayne, it was it was.

Wayne and his mom and his two little siblings and his uncle and the tennis coach. And so we show up in the morning and they all they were like, we had to evacuate. We got on the road, we got out of there, and so I made them coffee. He liked it with half in half, but I accidentally put in sweet cream.

Dare you?

He literally he goes, this is the best coffee ever. And Janet goes, what did you put in it? And I go sweet cream and she goes, well, the way that's why it was like, he goes, I said half in half, and I was like, yeah, I don't know if you we have nothing, and I mean, we're never we don't have anything, but they were so I mean we were like, okay, we went back to sleep, and then we woke up and his mom got us flowers and like she stalked our fridge, and I was like, really,

Were about their neighborhood. We've been that any house in that neighborhood.

No, but it was crazy. His brother was putting up videos. So remember the lake. I don't know if you guys saw the lake. Did you see So they were getting helicopters were going in there getting water.

Yeah, the big long tubes.

And it was crazy because his brother was like documenting it on Instagram all you know, all day Wow, but it was crazy. But it changes so much. But I'm pretty sure, Yeah, everything lifted and they're fine to be there now.

I felt like, i mean, even with just the shooting and the fires, I felt so helpless, like not being able to do something like I wanted to be able to.

It's the worst we were talking.

I mean, I know, yeah you came over right there, Yeah you were Yeah, you came over that next morning and I was like, man, I know, I'm like ten months pregnant basically, but I wish I could go help put out fires. But you just kind of feel so helpless sitting in your cozy little home. Yeah, Christmas separation.

Guilty.

You know. It's like it's the similar feeling of like if you go to a third world country, right and do like a charity thing like was ding to, you know, hunters, stuff like that, and then you come back you feel guilty for having what you have when really you just wanted you should just appreciate it more it's like the same thing. It's like we feel bad. You know, we're talking outside here about people who you know, they have homes and they're the only four homes at the entire

I feel like it's just a heavy feeling for everyone.

It is. It is.

It's so speaking of underrest, do you remember when we took out the water the water capsule in the shower. We wanted more water to come out. You're a terrible person bringing that up or are you not remembering?

You for you telling me to do that? This is all you're doing.

It's like there's not enough water, Like there's like.

Water restrictors, water restrictors in like this hotel that we were in, and Jana is like, I need more. Okay, Well, if you guys want to donate it all and help out with people out here suffering from the fires, if you text the words red Cross to nine oh nine nine nine, that's an automatic ten dollars donation, just you know, to help. Every little bit helps. To this point, people have lost everything, lots of people. So again, text Red Cross to nine oh.

Nine nine nine what you drink and your ten dollars latte from Starbucks? You could have given that to the fire people.

Yeah.

Yes, make people real guilty for drinking their morning coffee.

I know, it's what we just talked about.

Shoot, No, we were so kilt.

Yeah.

Hey Sarah, you still don't have a ring on your finger?

No?

I don't, Okay, moving on.

Moving on, all right. So, one of the things that Michael and I are now loving in our house is our Amazon Fire TV. So it brings all the live and streaming content you love to the biggest screen in your house, so you can watch everything you love with access to Netflix, Prime Video, Hulu and so much more. And with our baby on the way, we're trying to binge as much as we can right now, so it's great. And you can even watch YouTube videos and access websites

Cooking videos if you want to watch some.

Of those exactly and you can just be like, hey, Alexa open YouTube. I mean, I just think that's great because you can have everything in your house just working together. And if that wasn't enough, you can listen to this podcast and music with the iHeartRadio app on fire TV. So, hey, head over to www dot Amazon dot com slash windown again, that's Amazon dot com slash winddown to order a fireTV of your very owned and they make great gifts for your friends and family this holiday season.

Hey, do you want to bring up real quick what we talked about. Maybe you say you saved for the podcast.

Something happened the other day where Okay, we've heard that when you have a sibling with a baby to always bring the gift for the sibling, the older sibling, I've heard, and not to go straight to the baby. So when our baby boy comes, you know, people don't go straight to the baby. You say hello to Jolie first. And some that we should keep presents on hand for Jolie because no one's going to bring presents for Joeli. So we have a friend that just had a new baby and they've got two.

Girls and this is their third.

This is their third, and so I was like, oh, this is a perfect opportunity for us to be able to bring the presence for their two girls on top of their baby, you know, And so go ahead.

And this is an old work buddy of mine, okay, a friendship that I value. And I asked Janna, I said, hey, when you go get something, because she was running out to this little cute store of our house to get something for the infant, I said, hey, can you just grab a bag, like there's like a present bag to put these other presents in? Because I didn't want to show up in like the store bag that we got them in, like plastic bag. I didn't want to carry a boy themselves. I just wanted a nice bag just

One because what there's no reason?

Okay, but I didn't add real quick. And I was thinking about this yesterday and I actually kind of like, I was it bothered you? It really did bother me because I was the car it didn't. I wasn't asking, like what do you think should we do this? I asked her, I said, can you please get this bag? Yeah, I would like to put these other presents for the girls in this bag, but we.

Already went out of our way to get a present for them. It doesn't make the girls don't care that they're wrapped or in presence.

It's just about that I asked you for that.

I understand that, but it's just and I get that, and I apologize that I didn't because you did ask me for what you wanted. But in my and I and I didn't do it, and I should have just done it. But in my head, I'm like, we went out of our way to get them presents for the girls. I have the other stuff wrapped really pretty, so you know, who cares if the little Barbie doll play sets for the two girls aren't wrapped. They're just gonna be happy

Asked for so did you not do it because you like didn't feel like it, or you were tired or you didn't have time.

No, I just I really just didn't think that it was important.

Which I wasn't asking for opinion.

I asked her as to do it.

Please get this while you're at the store. He didn't and so, but I appreciate your apologizing today because when we went over it, she didn't apologize.

Well, I just didn't, you know, because if you would have asked him, I'm just in the middle because I'm the same like if ty Sarah continue, But would you be that mad or no?

Yes, I would be mad because I asked for what I wanted and I didn't. Because there's times when he's like let me, I'm like, no, I don't need you to carry this like I got it. If I will, I'll ask you if I need something.

Like are you mad that you asked her to do something and she didn't? Or are you mad that she that it didn't look nice and it wasn't pretty and.

Round it came down to you. I was mad that I just I asked her straight out what I wanted and needed and then she used her own opinion about it and decided against it, And I was like, I didn't ask for your opinion. I asked, did you get this a two dollars bag?

So I'm psycho because I think I would be mad that it didn't look pretty and nice and perfect?

But who cares? We have to bring the present presence it was nearly them. It was a nice stretch that we've brought the presence that we thought that nobody else would bring presence for the toddlers. We were bringing presents for the baby. You already went above and beyond. Yeah, so I'm like, why get the stupid bag with the fluff. We don't care what is stupid? A great transition into our guests, Hillary, and we have can you help us because we clearly need a little issue. We have a little issue.

Here, and give our listeners kind of your background real quick so they can understand how awesome you are.

Yeah.

I'm doctor Hillary Goulcher, and I have a private practice in Beverly Hills.

I'm a licensed clinical psychologist.

And I work a lot with couples, and I work a lot with couples in the public eye. And I work on other stuff too, trauma and anxiety, depression, eating disorders, parenting stuff, all sorts of things. So I have a practice in Beverly Hills, and I do a lot of media stuff, sort of local media and the news, CNN, Fox and commenting on.

Various psychological issues. From a therapist perspective.

How could I have done better? Should I have just gotten the bag, even though I didn't agree with the extra few bucks that we should just spend because we already went above and not like because he asked for it, should I have just done it?

You know, I think we have to step back for a moment because I think it's more of a good will issue. That's kind of what's coming up for me, because it like from the outsider, it's kind of such a small thing.

But if there were enough good will.

Between you two, and like, this is my first time with you, I know a little bit about your history from listening to a couple of the last podcasts, so that's a limited but still, but if they're a little more good will, this would come easier for you to

I'm not going to choose this time to stay on ground to be like this is ridiculous.

And it seems like there's enough tension between you guys in the last period of your life, that there's not an immediate good will that you lean into.

We're depositing in the bank more now.

But that's a great point, right, That's what it sounds like. You guys are on the upswing. Yeah, but I mean, like you know, so your question, I mean, sure, probably maybe you should have done that since he specifically asked, Hey, this might seem small to you, Well, maybe you didn't say it like I mean, which might be a good way to say it, but like, hey, this might seem small to me, but small to you, but it's important to me. Can we just figure out a way to do this kind of thing.

You're also like one hundred months pregnant. Like in your defense, I don't know, maybe you just go I'm just saying like sometimes it's just like.

Yes, yeah, I don't know, I think.

And that's where the goodwill piece comes in, you know what I mean, because it can go either way. Like if there were enough good will between you two and she had been like no, you might have.

Been like, you know what, Okay.

It's not like it's not like they it's a birthday present for them. It was just an extended awesome offer any or a nice gesture that we did anyways, on top of it that why did it have to have bells and whistles on it? We already went above and beyond. We're also bringing food over there to cook for them. We're also doing a B and C like why do I have to get a stupid bag with stuff on it?

It's just stupid?

How dare I's But again, you asked for what you want, and if it was something that I wanted, and I would have been bummed too. If I asked for twelve lemons and you only bring me six lemons, I'm going to be upset.

Well, I feel like for this period of time for you guys, as you're in the rebuilding process, like when one of you takes the risk to ask for what you want, whether it's like about you know, the bag and how it's dressed, or whether it's like in the bedroom or something. When someone does that, that it's really important for this period of time to be hyper sensitive.

To that, Like like ding he did that, I need.

To take a minute and like step outside of myself and make sure I attempt at least to like adhere to his request because he did that, you know what I mean, I totally get that, and that it's some other point down the line, six months, a year or whatever, there'll be more goodwill between you guys where it's like, you know, we have we have some room to play here, Like, yeah, I'm going to fight back today because I'm one hundred

She doesn't really do it right. You just don't have like a lot of like rubber band between you two right now.

Yeah, And that's true too, just because I get upset when I'm like, I've asked you for what you need and you didn't. So it's like, once we kind of build those up a little bit more, then it won't be like you should saying, then we're gonna have some like good wiggle room.

That's right.

It won't be like this forever where you can never have a day where you're like, I just can't be the hero in this moment. I just can't step up even though it's a small request and where you're like, Okay, she's just moody and right, but it's fine, I can let it go.

Which is funny because we have we've acknowledged that we're starting to get better at that. Yeah, where we really are where we're just kind of like we're not digging at if someone's we can feel attention or you know, there's something was said, we don't dig at each other as much or just kind of let it be. It's like, all right, well we'll revisit this later.

Yeah, switching gears really fast. Sarah, I really want you to get your opinion. Yes, you're her, Yeah, what's going on with your I.

Just want a question because I feel like this is a big issue. Like you know, we're always you're always hearing about people dating people that their parents or their friends or their families don't approve of. I'm not in that situation, just saying, but I'm just wondering because like for Mike and Janet, you know, she went through something.

From basically hating Mike to not hating me extreme for well, so you're so this person has said a bunch of bad stuff about the person that she's there with, and then now is like, never mind, he's working on himself. So y'all need to like him. Is basically the gist of this situation.

Yeah, in that scenario, what I guess. I just want to understand in your scenario.

And just to clarify because I don't Jana, is your situation.

I don't, which is kind of in the middle of something.

But you're one of the outsiders who now you're supposed to change your opinion of.

This person, not even change. I just want to understand.

They want this, they want her. I want to bat on board.

I just want to understand the flip switch and whether, I mean I even have talked to Janna, I've heard her, you know, just in general, Like, I'm just curious, what are we supposed to you know, when you know so much, how do you unknow it?

Yeah?

I mean I don't think there is such a thing as a flip switch. That would be like an unre expectation because the person asking you for that courtesy didn't have a flip switch either. They went through a whole process, whatever the process was. They went through therapy, they consulted friends, they consulted family, they saw a pastor, right, I mean, they didn't flip a switch. They over a period of time,

I guess it's just like what's the borderline between supporting and then right because I think this.

Is yeah, this is a got it.

Yes, well there is. I mean, if there's something abusive going on, either mentally, verbally or physically, that's that's a different scenario.

Like all bets are off.

Yeah, So if the person has done that, then it's gonna be hard for the other people to be on board with that relationship when you know a B and C.

I just wonder how, you know, it's so hard, especially in this time, like you know, everything's so sensitive and everything's so political, and it's just like how do you be supportive and how you know without hurting feelings or without saying too much or not saying enough. And you know, even I didn't know Janna at the time that she

I think you can say out loud to the people that you're you're dealing with that like, I need to see a history of positive health, the non toxic behavior for me to be on board.

And just look forward.

Yeah, and that's not where I am right now.

I'm going to follow your lead in terms of understanding that you're moving forward with this person, and I'll stand by and support of you. But I need to see a history for me as an individual to be on board.

I like that I was, and I was kind of telling him, or when I was talking to Sarah about this, I was saying, you know, with Michael, not everybody was on board the day I said I'm staying with Michael. It took months year.

Ago, especially because there's never one day that you said I'm staying.

With Mike, right But it's it's a it's a price. So I'm like, see the process and if he looks like he's changing and continuing to grow, then that's your Okay. He is trying, he is becoming the man that he says he's going to be in this relationship. So but for the person to be you know, it's this or either support or not support. Is that it's a little aggressive with the situation.

I think that and I think everyone's different to everyone has their ways of dealing with whatever they are dealing with. I just think that I've seen that in a lot of friends and family and people I know where they're with people that maybe the others don't. It's hard when you care about someone too that you don't maybe approve of.

Yeah, how long has it been since things are trying to turn to the other direction? Like how long have you been expected now to get on board?

Not long?

Okay?

Yeah, but because it's she's just heard a lot of bad stuff, right, I was just like, wait, why.

I just feel like, like even I keep bringing back to Jana because that's really the only Like others, I just feel like when when it's a whole lot going around and there's a lot of people involved, which I'm sure there was a ton of people involved with you, I just don't know, like when is too much? Like do I step in, do I step back? Do I watch? Do I say? You know? I just don't know, And I think a lot of people don't know when do I fully voice my.

I mean, I'll say this for my friends. I know there was a couple times where I'm like, that's it, I'm done, I'm leaving, and then I then I you know, we worked on it, and then there was another incidents that happened where I called them, told them, and then I knew that I had to leave because I've now just told so much that I would be crazy not to leave, and they would I know what they would say. And but then when I said I was still staying.

Because that's what I think is hard. You don't want to make like you if we were friends in that time, I would not want to make you feel Okay, I just told her this, so now I can't tell her this, but now I want to tell I would never want to make someone feel like they can't tell me or they said too much, or now they're afraid to tell.

Yeah, exactly. And then because now Michael's this best version he's ever been, so now they're seeing the best version of him. So if I didn't stay and give that chance, this version, no one would have seen.

Yeah.

I think one of the things to keep in mind is not to alienate the loved one, you know, what I mean, the person that you are concerned about, and to your point, Jenna being able to say like, I love you no matter what.

Here are my thoughts. I'm worried about this.

Yea, I feel happy about that, but I'm standing on the sidelines here to support you, so that if this person needs to come to you at any time, whether it's to tell you the great news that everything's wonderful, or whether it's to tell you like I need out and I need help, I don't like shut that door with judgment. But you haven't smoke screened it either by not being authentic and saying like, I'm worried about this and I have to say it out loud, but I'm in your corner no matter what I think.

Yeah, I think that's great too, and that that's kind of what Jana's family did in our situation where her mother came to me, was basically like, look, if Jana loves you, we're going to love you. If she doesn't, we're not going to. Like simple as that, her entire family, there's such a close family. They feed off of Jana's feelings, her emotions, her presence, and that really dictated like how their interaction with me was over the last two and

And I also think too for the person that you know you're dealing with and kind of me too, we want and need sympathy in those moments. But I think sometimes too much said is also bad, yeah, because we're putting ourselves in a situation like you would be like, why did you involve them? Why did you tell them that? And I'm like, looking back, I get yeah, I actually probably didn't need to do that, and now I've just kind of stirred it more and made it worse.

But you can own and you could admit that, so that's yeah.

But I think in that moment, I just I wanted people, just want to have them like be on your side and want people rallied around you because it could be you don't know, it could be the hardest time of your life, so you want to make sure you've got people on your bench.

Yeah, that's you know, that's actually a good, nice analogy. There have a good question for Hillary, because Hillary, you deal with you said, a lot of celebrities and maybe in the limelight, maybe more their businesses out there. Do you have a different approach when you're dealing with someone that is of celebrity or known rather than maybe a more you know, private couple dealing with these issues?

But I think the macro answer is not really, you know, because when it gets down to it, folks in the public eye or celebrities are the same the same, right right as any other person. But I mean they do bring to the table different issues like what is it like to have your husband and yours business you know everyone public eye? That is, that is an issue that most people wouldn't have to deal with, So in cases

Something I take on.

But kind of like when it gets down to like the guts of a couple, it's so similar, right, so similar stars, they're.

Just like a right.

All right, guys. So with our new baby on the way, we are really trying to stay in bed as much as we can. And it's a lot easier to do on our Brooklynen sheets, that's for sure. And just to let you know, Brooklynen sheets were named the winner of the best of Online Betting category by Good Housekeeping.

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Do you have a hard time spelling babe b u oh okay oka alon And I guess I'm teaching Jolie out as well. Well, here's the deal another thing that we're loving. And it's so great because I really am trying to have great household products around our house because just with you know, I feel like we've had so many guests on here they say it's not just about what you put in your body, it's about the products that you have around your house.

And that you put that you're exposed to.

Yeah, that we're exposed to. So you know, I started to really go through and I was like, man, I don't know if the surface cleaner is good, but we've always loved Myer's products. We love Bert's Bees, so anything from Babyganic. So let me tell you about Grove Collaborative. So it is the perfect place to get all of your household products for a clean and healthy home. So, like Mike just said, there's Brook Babyganics, there's Myers Cleaning supplies, sunscreen, lotions.

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Yeah.

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Well, yeah, I mean this is someone wrote us to Jana, and I think Hillary could probably really help out this person. Whose name is Jill. She says, I feel so lost right now. My name is Joanna I'm almost twenty four years old. My boyfriend of four years broke up with me, and there's just so much history there. I'm really having a difficult time being without him. I feel like I lost a part of myself. Is there any way to have a podcast how to get over a heartbreak? He's

Well, I'm sorry your heart it's breaking.

That's heartbreaking work, Joanna, that's none. I was just thinking about breakups the other day and thinking about how the really and the realm of grief. You know, this really is a grief for her. I mean, it's not just a breakup, especially when you're with someone for that long. It's like losing a family member. It's a death devastating. It's devastating. So the idea or expectation that she would be sort of okay anytime, really soon is too lofty

Might mean for her.

What you would do for yourself if you weren't feeling well, you know, physically you try to do for yourself when you're not feeling well mentally, whether it's like trying to exercise or get more sleep, or be with friends or

I like that a lot. And I also think obviously when you're in the middle of it, it's the worst breakups are just awful, But At the same time, though, I'm thinking about all my breakups, and I remember, I have a diary too that i've I've kept, and sometimes I go back and I I you do, Yeah, I go back and I just it's like, you know, I'm reading how devastated I was from this, you know, from the breakups. But then I look, you know, a year later,

So cliche, but I totally I you become so much stronger and you grow so much like I look at my sixteen year old self. Oh, but like it's crazy, Like I literally it's funny. I always go back to that and I'm like, no, I something changed, you know what I mean, Like you just become a different You become stronger than you thought because the days, you know, you feel like it's the end of the world and you don't want to like see the world or you Oh my god, I watched Sex in the City for

Yeah, and the mostially at that age, it's like so young. Yeah, we all have a high school sweetheart for sure, but even just in our twenties, you know, my twenties, I was like, I'm never going to find anyone, and then you know, we break up and it's just awful, and but you always you just learn and you grow so

Well, and one thing I always think about is that is that feeling states never stay the same. Like pick the worst feeling you've ever ever had in your life, and you imagine it would never go away.

It always shifts and changes, always always owen.

It's like good one.

No one has ever been able to give me an example where that's not true. It doesn't mean like grief might not carry with you, or sadness or hurt or whatever it is, but they never stay exactly the same. So sort of knowing that and believing that, uh huh, well, sort of give some hope for the future. And to your point, Jane, I totally agree. There's no a breakup

Right, And Joanna, if a lot of that too, is you know, relating to other people's stories, if maybe she has friends that have gone through bad breakups. But if this helps this situation, if Jana and I can go through the pain that we have both felt from our situation, which I mean during the midst of it, did you ever think goes and to go away?

Never?

Never me either ever ever?

And so and it's still there from time to time, right, which lessons over.

Time exactly Hillary's point, Like the grief and stuff like that doesn't just go away. You learned something from it, you become stronger from it.

Yeah, but that it does.

Being in the midst of that, it lessons where not in that anymore? If we can go through that, Yeah, I think Joanna can go through that grief, go through that pain and come out on the other side. Yeah, I know, right now it feels like it won't ever run the killer, he said.

I mean your your lobster's out there. Don't worry.

Okay. So today's show is sponsored by talk Space again, the online therapy company that lets you message a licensed therapist from anywhere at any time.

Do you know, by the way, sorry not to interrupt you, but how many times I have like needed advice in that moment, and you know, my therapist there is like, well I can see you next Tuesday. Like I don't want I need now now.

Now you're a now kind of person.

I need it right now. And then I get on a blog and then people are telling me all these things, but I really need to talk to a therapist.

Absolutely, or your husband, but better off just text a therapist. That means you can prove your mental health even if you have had trouble making time for it in the past, like Jana is struggling with right now when a therapist can't see her. Remember that therapy isn't about just venting your Internet thoughts or digging into childhood memories. It's also about practical everyday strategies for stress management and living a happier life. So again, you don't have to have a

It's an app. So there's therapists on there that are professional therapists. They have their degree and you just download the app, make sure you have internet connection and your set for great mental health.

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So I guess I had to say something really fast. Kind of gets jealous when my fab fit fun boxes come to the door and you do, and he's like, well, oh, in a box. So I'll never forget the day that our producer Amy texts me and says, can you pick out a man crate for Michael? And I'm like, oh, a man.

Crately, I've been dying to this spot.

What is this? So I go on man Crates and I start looking at all these different crates and there are so many different ones, like and you by the way, you guys Again, Michael's been dying to do this spot because it's truly so authentic to his needs. So anyways, so I'm going through. I'm like, Okay, there's a crate for whiskey. There's a crate for cooking. There's like a make your own knife. There's all like, I.

Mean, like a horse in the stable right now, just ready for Jane to open the gate so I can just start talking about it, I know.

But I'm like, there's all these different things, and I'm like, you know what, Amy, this is kind of overwhelming because you know, Mike likes to cook, he likes whiskey, he likes knives, he likes these things. But then I saw this one crate and I was like, you know what, He's probably gonna pick this crate, but I'm just gonna let him choose whatever one he wants, and guess which one he chose Michael, go for it. You're out of the stable, baby.

So yeah, Janna was overwhelmed, and so going through it, I went through. There were I think one hundred and fifteen man crates total on the site. When I look, there's probably even more now, actually there are even more. So there's over one hundred different types of man crates.

Are they really?

Yes? We trust me. I look through all of them and the ones that I found to get.

Drumroll please for which one didn't Mike Kid.

Zombie Annihilates you get, baby, it came, That's right. It came with an eleven inch machete, a tomahawk, a six inch knife, gorilla glue, duct tape, wait book for Zombie Apocalypse Survival Guide the same author of Ward Wars. He knows what he's talking about. So I am prepped and ready.

I was like, why do you? And I knew it the second I saw Zombie Nihilation. I was like, I bet you he's going to pick that one. And that's the one you picked up.

With a smile on my face, I texted Janna back, I said, I want the Zombie Annihilation man create Now. It's just stuff that I would never buy. Myself. You know, stuff that's fun to have as a man, and so especially for this holiday season, there are so many options for your father, for your father.

Now, we got my brother, We got my brother the whiskey kit.

Yeah, I mean there's so many options for that. For that mail in your life that you don't know what to get, I'm telling you you will find something. There's you can create.

The greatest thing ever.

You can create your own knife on there. You can open the crate, you can create your own knife.

You're so excited.

I'm so excited to I mean, I mean anything exotic meats where they have ostrich alligator, all that kind of jerky grilling, different types of grilling.

I will say, it's really okay, Michael, Okay, calm down. It's really hard to shop for the men in your life. I mean such a like my dad, my brother. I'm like, I don't know what to get you. But I mean this truly is the place to go. Man, create, Go ahead, Michael, why don't.

You just yes, please let me finish. And every most gifts ship in a sealed wooden crate with a crowbar, and so you have to the mint. It was a gift to me so I had a pride open with this crowbar. He found me demand it is legit. I didn't feel like a man. That took me a little while, but that was part of the fun. That's part of the novelty and is such a great time and I really enjoyed it. Just remember, with man Crates, you're giving

Okay, Michael'll get to it.

Listeners. Listeners to this show, buy one gift and you will get the second gift for twenty five percent off when you go to Mancrates dot com slash Wine w H I N E. This offer is only for the holidays. Again, by one gift and get the second twenty five percent off at Mancrates dot com slash Wine Mancrates dot com slash Wine again w H I N E. Go get one.

Can we talk about anxiety?

For a second.

Yes, So I have really, really, really bad anxiety. I had PTSD when I from an incident when I was twenty one. And so Michael and I got into an argument last night on the car ride home from our friend's house, uh, because we were talking about I brought up something to our friends and I said, I'm starting to have anxiety. And I brought this up with my therapist too, because and she wanted me to share with Michael that I'm having anxiety about the sea section that

Night basically that was bad. But basically Janet gets it. Starts to get anxiety about the birth and being in the hospital and the pain, and then so for with when we had Jolie, she was like, I need like the epidura, I need the epidural, like kind of like screaming at the doctors. She gets me screaming at that, not screaming, but you're you know, you're anxious, You're wrapped up.

So I don't like to feel like. It was the weirdest feeling in the world to me, not to be able to feel my legs and from you know, waist down. I was like, I don't like it. I don't like this feeling. I only just feel like like in my heart's starting to race. And I was like, I don't

And eventually, again, just like it was in the hospital with Jolie, I don't automatically go there. It's you. You don't understand. You get like you cannot be rationed.

With when I that feeling.

Though, No, I'm not saying you do. I'm not saying you purposely do it. I'm just saying when you are in that super anxious space. Yeah, you're getting hot right now coming now you cannot be rationed with so.

But I need you to stay calm, and then maybe I can't, right, and that is my job. But he doesn't stay calm, and he's like, well, you have to prepare yourself. I go, I am preparing myself for the uncomfortable. I know it's gonna suck, but I'm still like, I'm still gonna have anxiety. It doesn't just go away. He's like, well, I don't know, because it's just all in your head. And I'm like, yeah, I hate that. I hate having to like already freak out about anxiety and probably I

No, I'm like the mic, but I am the calm one. So like Tya's really bad anxiety and when he gets that anxiety, he looks to me to be his rock, and I'm his rock. But then after six years, I'm like, Okay, let's we know how to do this. Let's breathe, you know what I mean. I'm like, every time I can't be there to hold your hand if you have an anxiety attack and I'm there, it's an you know what

Yeah, and what I think, and he makes me feel crazy because I do say it, and I already feel crazy for feeling my anxiety.

Yeah, I'm so happy to talk about We're.

All just like and I was, so I was. I mean, I called you an a hole last night. It's been a long time since I've called you a word.

It has been a long time.

Yeah, I'm sorry for calling you that, but you you that was rude. You asked me for what I needed. I told you what I needed, and then you were then you got heightened, and then you just made my anxiety.

Can I just explain just so, Hilary, Hillary, this was literally, this was literally last night.

I'm sorry, Hillary, Yeah, this is very fresh.

So I just want to say again, last night was an example of I was calm at the beginning, and that's why I said, what can I do to help with your anxiety? And we start talking about it, and then you got on topic of if you need something, to go ask the doctors for you, and I said, yes, I understand that, and I will go ask the doctors if you need something, and her guy no, said, if you need something, I'll give you this or whatever. His

And then I would say okay, and then you're like, but that's not what you do, and that's well, okay, but but I have then if the doctor says no, that's no, there's nothing I can do if you at least saying hey, you know what, I went and I asked and they said you can't have this right now. So then I need you to stay calm with me. And he keeps going, but but butt, and then this is building my anxiety. And now now I'm getting worried.

Okay, she's gonna go to a labor and I'm freaking out.

Yeah, let's get okay, let's get to this quickly.

Okay, I'm actually having a contraction.

Oh my god, I'm coming all.

Right, So this is a good moment to kind of do a little psycho education for Michael for your listeners, because anxiety is a real thing, like a real physical condition, and we treat it the same way we would think about treating like bronchitis or pneumonia or any other physical condition.

It is.

It is not just in the head. I mean, obviously it has roots in the mind, but it becomes a physical condition and it becomes out of the person's control.

So it's it's not something that Jana can choose.

It doesn't mean that you're like void of all responsibility and you don't do the best you can to be graceful and kind and respectful during those moments. But I think for you, Michael, being able to conceptualize it like that, that it's not something that she can just choose not

Deal with this.

Right, So, even though it might be a reality that you guys come up with a plan and you implement it and Janet freaks out and doesn't do anything that she says she's going to do and does everything you say that she's going to do, right, that sort of is for the next conversation, but like the first conversation to create a safety zone so for her to feel like, Okay, at least my anxiety can start feeling con tained or at least attended to or validated has to happen first,

And once that happens, then you can have the next.

Conversation, which is like, okay, so if we have this safety plan and you go outside of it or start coming at me or start you know, doing what you did last time or whatever.

What are we going to do?

But the first conversation kind of has to be more like, tell me all about what you're afraid of and what I can do for you, and your job is just go okay, okay, okay for that first conversation, because that that anxiety. That anxiety is I just had a baby seven months ago and I had are you serious.

You look amazing?

Whoa okay, but whoa, thank you, thank you. But I had a plan C section and I had that ex same experience, and it is really unnerving to feel like you're paralyzed from half your body down. It's it's really unnerving. So I think most women feel that way anyway. And then if you have a history of anxiety and it's tied to an incident that created PTSD.

For you feeling trapped, Yes.

That runs really deep. So you're right your fear that it might be uh, she might be impulsive or not behave as you guys plan is probably a reality because you have this history and who knows how it's going to go. But being able to feel like you're united on like the idea of how it's going to go, and then coming up with contingency plans after, I think is is a place to start.

And I'm noticing your well to you might slightly be rolling his.

Eyes at me, and I kind of wanted to thank you for bringing that because I was gonna say, why are you calling bs to this? Because I still think that it's something that I that I can control.

Okay, all right here and here, let me just say.

This, So thank you for calling him out because I was going to.

Do saying it's not a choice, you can't control it. Okay, that's what being said. What about you have no idea what anxiety feels. Listening for a second, I'm not I'm not doubting you I'm not. I'm just saying for let's use the example of addiction. Let's use addictions. Okay, people are addicted to something, but it still comes down to a physical choice to what decisions you make, regardless of addiction being a mental disorder or not.

Why are you getting so mean?

I have a way of maybe coming in because I do have a question kind of like what Mike saying, what is the line between Obviously Jana has anxiety, and like I know that tie, my tie has anxiety, but what is there a line between anxiety and then not that he's mental, but then okay, not only so you have anxiety, And now you're getting in your own head because like he doesn't like to fly. Okay, so we're flying, and now all he's talking about is his anxiety and

Like?

Okay, maybe you were making it worse right now?

Of course, I mean, it doesn't mean that you don't get to protect yourself as the partner of someone with anxiety. It doesn't mean you just have to give yourself over to the whim of that person. And to your point, you know, talking about addiction. If someone's addicted to drugs and their behavior is completely destructive, it's not like we just stand back and go. But they have a disease,

So I'm gonna I just want to try and fix it. I mean, even if if she you know, and I'm sure Mike feels it's hard watching someone and not because you're right, it's not like they have a call for There's nothing I can and I'm control freak, and so when I can't, it gives. It's like it gives me.

That's what it is. It's if I try. And that's the thing. I am empathetic towards Jennie feeling this way, and that's what it is. I don't want to see her like that. But it's when I try to help, but yet she won't. I feel like she won't take what I have to say. She has to hear it from a doctor. She has like if I'm like, hey, honey, you're gonna be okay, well you don't know that, go get a doctor. Like I'm like, I'm telling you you're gonna be fine. Like why don't I'm your husband?

Why what I need in that moment.

Before I just listen to me?

At the same time, because what if, why can't you I'm like, actually really getting upset.

But why doesn't my Why doesn't my voice matter in those moments? Why?

Like? Why will you just not support what I need?

So you need a doctor to tell you that you're okay?

Sure in that moment? Maybe that's what I need?

What's feeling so upsetting for you? Right now?

I feel close or feel big?

Yeah?

Yeah, like I just feel like stuck, Like I feel like you won't like you don't you make me feel like I'm fucking crazy for having anxiety.

I don't want to feel this way, Mike.

I'm curious what if it is true that for her she sometimes does need an outside party like a doctor or something to tell her it's going to be okay.

Like, what if that's true? What does that bring up for you?

It it brings up because it'll be on something super elementary, and it's like, I'm likes it makes it makes me feel like like what I have to say doesn't matter and that it doesn't carry anyway, Like what do you? And like honestly, it's like, I'm your husband. Do you think I would possibly put you in a situation that is harmful for you? No? I wouldn't. I'm your husband, I want to see you okay, and so I'm going to make sure and all that I can control that you're okay.

Yeah, it makes you feel somehow ineffective or not relevant or something in those moments. Yeah, so I mean kind of from an outsider's perspective, it's.

Not being in the emotion of it. You can see both sides.

I mean, it makes sense right that for Jana that it's so important to be able in those moments where she feels completely panicked and like almost traumatized, to be able to get what she needs, even if what she needs is something that you don't totally understand or doesn't resonate with you, and somehow not being able being able not to take it personally, you.

Know, but it really makes sense to me why that comes up for you. You're her husband.

You want to protect her and you want her to feel your love and like your focus on her. That like I got you, and that sense that the I got you isn't enough makes you feel but it's impotent or something.

It seems like your main anxiety right now, right you know what I mean? Like usually it's not.

Like I mean, like I'll have Anxietyttecks I can work through any now he's there for you know what I mean?

Like there are.

Times when like I'll it's I just want to know that they can land the plane.

No, you know what I mean? Like just like if it's one big thing, does it take one thing for him to do? And then it's like, Okay, we're good.

Yeah, it's because it's not every time just him either asking or but but saying no to to my fear or to my my my safety net of at least asking, he's just saying no to it right off the bat, and that gives me no. Well, exactly when you were like you're fine, I'm your husband, like, you're you're not gonna die, And I'm like, but can you just I'm asking you to feel safe, and I'm asking you to do something to make me feel safe.

Can I ask a question? This is a question. What about you hearing from me, your husband? What about you hearing from me, Hey we're not the plane's not going to crash, We're gonna be okay, Hey we're not going to get sick. Hey there's not going to be an earthquake. What like, what about hearing something from me isn't.

Enough for you I'm not saying it's not enough, but but what is it?

Like?

Why don't you take what I say like I'm just curious.

For my anxiety. Sometimes I just need to know that I don't know how to how to explain it.

I think I think what's hard to accept from my standpoint is that the anxiety is bigger than you in those moments, that it really isn't about you, That it's not about your effectiveness as a husband, it's not about her love for you or her trust in you. That it really is about something that's overtaken her and she needs a set of things to help contain her, and one of them is you, and one of them is you being her advocate.

It sounds and yeah, and if it can't happen, then I need you just to be calm and reassuring and again knowing not making me feel crazy on top of it, because that's the worst part. And because people that don't have anxiety don't understand that they feel like they're going to die and their heart's going to explode and they're going to pass out. And I mean, there's so many times I've had I get so heightened that I that

So I would say this, since we're like on a timeline, baby coming like any moment. I maybe normally wouldn't say this because I just met you, Mike, but I'm just going for the intervention.

Yeah, no, I would say this.

I would say for you in this moment, since it's so big, your baby's coming and you have.

This when I know the experience I had with Jolie and how I did freak out, So I don't want that to happen again. But it's it is a trauma kind of that's in my head that happened.

I would say like for you, and I say this to couples all the time, to eat different parties of the couple depending on the situation, Like it, you kind of have to be the hero in this moment, you know, in the hospital with her and sort of setting aside the part that's your I don't want to call it agenda, but that's about you, you know that sense of like, wait, she's rejecting me or somehow not being useful.

To her, because that's not what it's about at all. It doesn't sound like Janet.

It just sounds like there's a specific set of things that you need to feel contained and being able to say, like, you know what, I'm just going to give this to her.

Different experience in that regard.

Yeah, I just think it's hard for people that don't have anxiety to understand. And that's where I think it's frustrating. Yeah, when you know, when we were when you thought said, oh, Mike, are you rolling your eyes? And I'm like, he's going like, I wasn't roll my eyes, well, but we could tell that you were. I was just not having thoughts, right, But your thoughts are that anxiety is a mind thing and it's we're crazy, is basically how you make it seem.

That's not at all. I'm asking questions yes, it doesn't make sense to me because I don't suffer from anxiety or lack of control in that realm. So I'm curious because for like serious like in my logical brain, it makes sense like I'm your husband. If I say it's going to be okay, it's probably gooda. It's not a medical question, like you know, if it's something seriously medical, obviously i'd ask a professional. But something is.

You know, when people that suffer from anxiety, sometimes that's just not enough for us. It's we need that extra security and safety because we don't believe that, and then our minds just get worse.

How do you know that when it stops? Like how do you like the doctor is enough? Or do you need something else above that? Do you need something else above that? Do you need a report that says that this happens?

Or if I need a doctor? And that's all, that's what I need to tell me, just like you know whatever, if I need all.

In all, First, I want to say I'm sorry that

Other anxiety moving forward. Okay, Okay, I can't I'm Hillary. Where can my listeners find you.

At doctor Hillarygoulture dot com.

Thank you for being here because.

It's obviously amazing. Thank you, thank you.

I really appreciate it. Okay, So next year we're going to be traveling a lot, b a lot.

Yeah, what's new.

With our house being built in Nashville and then obviously recording the podcast here and everything else we got going on a lot of back and forth.

And a lot of carry on luggage I know, which I never used to carry on until I met Jane. She taught me how to pack.

Yeah, because he would put like he would put this, He would put his shoes in the suitcase and be like, my bag is so full. I'm like, that's because you just put them right in the middle of your bag. Like he doesn't know how to pack, but no I do. Luckily he knows how. And I gotta tell you, A Way Luggage is really great because I have a really hard time finding a place to charge my phone in the UH. In the airport, I'm constantly walking around trying to find an empty plug, and especially in some of

This is huge with having the kids and having their devices as well, to say, keep everyone charged and happy.

Yeah, and they have a removable washable laundry bag, which.

Is my favorite part is how time right, Well, we're somewhere we have to designate like one of our bags. The one compartment is like the dirty.

Clothes, and it's always your bag, it's always my bag. But it's just so great because you can remove it and then you just throw it right in the washer. It's so great. And again it's the perfect gift for everyone on your list for any destination, get loved ones the perfect size away luggage in any color. Because the holiday season, everyone wants to get away. So for twenty dollars off a suitcase, visit away travel dot com, slash Jana and use promo code Jana during checkout. Again, that's

It's just gonna it's a big time right now. It's hard, and.

It's just again, it's so hard. And I do empathize with all three of you because you all deal with someone that have anxiety.

Crazy. No, that's what's so crazy, is like, so if you think about it, you're right every single person in this room is dealing with so like, it's so out there. Everyone's dealing with someone.

Who Yeah, but it's just I mean, so I do empathize with you guys, but it's just I will say from the person again that has anxiety, you don't want to feel this way. It's it's it's not fun. But if you guys can just please try to remain as calm as possible, that would be hot fome homework on it, that would just be so great. A huge thank you to all of our sponsors today for the show We've got Brooklynen. The only way to get twenty dollars off and free shipping is to use promo code Jana at

Big thank you to Talkspace to match with a perfect therapist for a fraction of the price of traditional therapy. Go to talkspace dot com slash Jenna and use code Jana to get forty five dollars off your first month.

Go ahead the.

Huge thank you to man Crates. Remember this holiday season by one gift and you will get the second gift for twenty five percent off. When you go to mancrates dot com slash wine w h I.

N E Away Luggage for twenty dollars off a suitcase. Visit away Travel dot com slash Janna and use promo code Janna during checkout. Amazon fireTV had to www dot Amazon dot com slash windown again. That's Amazon dot com slash winddown to order a fireTV of your very own. Thanks guys, Thank you. We will be talking to you guys next from the hospital room.

I like you windown later