Wind Down with Jana Kramer and I'mheart Radio Podcast.
Okay, so super excited about this week's episode. We have Zach Clark coming on the show. He was the winner of Tasha's season of The Recent Bachelorette, so we're super excited to talk all about his road to recovery from his addictions and just.
His road to being the victor on the Bachelorette. The Victor, the Victor.
The Victor. I also super excited because we have Pittsburgh Pam joining us today. Hey, Pittsburgh baby. So Pammy is a Pamelin. Sorryam Pammy. Pamelin is an amazing friend. We actually met in Los Angeles and then I told her, you know, we were moving to Nashville. And then when she was debating moving, I was like, come move in our sub So now we're neighbors and it's.
Just our daughters are bestie. Yeah, that's great.
Yeah, the daughters are besties. She's just extraordinary of everything and crafts. Honestly, like I said this the other day when I was with the kids, how do you Because I'm just not a crafty mom, and sometimes I feel really bad about that, Like I feel I feel guilty.
We all have our strengths, my dear.
Well, and yeah, your strengths kind of go across the board here.
Yeah, because your strengths are like, I mean, you like the stuff that you do in the neighborhood with the kids, and even when Jolie comes over, it's like, oh man, you made that over at you know, at Pamlin's house, and like the kids come here and they're like, we watched Aladdin. So I'm like, out, how do you I mean, do you just love doing arts and crafts or was it something that your mom did with you?
Yeah, I mean it was something like I like grew up doing like my mom is definitely you know, like that, and so I think, yeah, you're just like taught and it's just kind of like all you know. So then I had these like two little girls and and you know, started doing it and now I like created these monsters where it's like if we're not making something super fun or doing something creative, They're like, why aren't we doing you know, crafts today? And I'm like, oh my gosh,
what have I done? But it's definitely fun. Sometimes I do need a break.
So you set the standard so high so early that there's no way back.
Yeah, all my like friends are like, man, you really messed up, like you just you know you did it wrong.
I mean set them low.
You guys are the ones where you know, we have a lot of neighborhood kids that are around the same age. And when you know, your oldest comes to the bus stop and the other kids, I'll come to the bus stop like look her up and down, say I say all the Yeah, first of all, your daughter's dressed better than the adults, and the.
Pamelin goes, oh, I made that from like the curtains right last night.
And then like say, all the kids have like a science project. Everyone else would have like rubber bands and like some sticks or something, and Pamelin would have to get like a trailer to haul like her daughters up the street because it's so big and perfect. And oh, you guys are this is the way.
It is too kind.
And you have a book coming out. I do tell us about the kid's book coming up. Thanks, Usually it's a it's a kid's book, but also you go you explain.
It, Okay. So the book is called Gratitude the Great and it is a children's picture book, but it's all about gratitude and kind of you know, ways to incorporate daily gratitude rituals, you know, into your lives. And we all know that, like children aren't just going to come up with these things. It's the parents that have to initiate it. And really you know, instill that message like into children early, and it's just so much more than saying like thank you. That's not like the gratitude that
I'm talking about. I'm talking about like gratitude from your soul and like knowing, like you know, feeling actual gratitude, like you know, somebody did something so nice for you. Like let's feel it because it's a feeling, and then let's act on it by you know, writing a note or making sure we you know, say special things to people. But there's all these different rituals that like we do as a family that I also like incorporate into this like very special story. And you know, again it is
a kid's book, but it's like so good. Like I said before, you know, the best virtues in the world are not taught, they're caught. So it's like we as parents have to live these lives you know of gratitude and all these other amazing virtues out there and then our kids will just follow. And you know, for me, gratitude I call it like the greatest natural superpower in
the world. It is does not discriminate, It is free to the entire universe, and it can change your life, like if you start your foundation as a child living in gratitude it, I mean there's science behind it. You know, it will forever like change the trajectory of your life. And so I'm so passionate about it. It's changed my life. So I wrote a children's book about it and it's coming out May.
Fourth, So they should follow you on your Instagram.
Yes, House of Bachery and also Gratitude the Great. I now have an Instagram handle for that.
Yay.
How do you are How do you with with your daughters? Because I feel like, you know, it'll be simple or easier to teach her or show them how to be grateful or or express gratitude when someone does something nice for you right and do something in return out of gratitude. How do you do it where it's more of a because you know, as adults, if you do some work, you're able to have this moments of gratitude where Jane
and I will share them. They'll just kind of come right Okay, It's almost like a daydream and say, man, I'm just so grateful for where my life is high on this life right like in that moment. So have you addressed that with your girls? And how do you kind of you know, help push them along to understand that concept of yes.
Right, because like when you know little kids, it's a it's a lot of the tangible like present things, right. And so one thing we do we call it pillow chat, and it's at night and this is like in the book, but we have this heart crystal and we think that like you know, crystals like you know, send out all this great like energy. And so we each hold the crystal and we talk about like something that we were like grateful for that happened today, or you know, a
feeling that we were grateful for today. So it's not about like I got a you know, I got a new lol doll, right, It's nothing like that. And so you know, I always go first to kind of like set the tone, and it's you know, nothing that's tangible. It's like, you know, I'm so grateful for picking those flout beautiful flowers with you on our special mommy and daughter walk today, and then they kind of then go with that same theme. It's like that kid in class
who like, you know, what's your favorite thing? The one first kid says, then all the kids say the same thing. So it's kind of like set in the tone. So we do that every night. And then what I noticed we've been doing it for years, and what I noticed is then they're able to kind of acknowledge those special moments and feelings. Then like throughout the day, like I mean so many times, you know, me and Harlowe will be driving and she's like, Mommy, these trees are so beautiful,
Like I'm so grateful to see them. That's you know that Then it just like I was saying that, it just kind of snowballs and it just becomes your normal life. And then you know, and then when you get older and tough things start to happen, you know, and you're like salty at the world, you know, because something bad happened. You can then hopefully like pull in those tools to find the beauty and things that you know money can't buy or.
That's so awesome.
Yeah, I love that. And Mike and I have kind of similar to that, like we've been saying every morning, like I'm grateful for you, and it kind of just sets the tone of the day so that we're not high on like negative energy or you know, it's just like we're acknowledging each other taking a.
Second to yeah, we just wanted to start the day. We just found ourselves like contesting each other early in the day at times like why it's like why can't we just start with like almost like a clean state, right, so even if the night before wasn't great or the day before wasn't great, refreshing that morning being like, look, I'm grateful for you because at the end of the day, I am, I appreciate you whatever it is.
And also like you know, just like the energy of that coming out of your mouth and sending that message to the universe, you know, is going to get like bounced back to you. And so it's kind of like if you're ever thinking something that's nice, say it, say it to anybody.
You know.
I mean, you're so good at that. I feel like Janna, You're always like, you know, you guys are so such nice win the world. But it really, I think, you know, makes a difference, And so I just wanted to do this book to try to like just keep you know, encouraging parents, like this is our job, you know, and we need a reminder all the time.
You're right, Well, I love you, Pittsburgh Pam, thanks for coming on. You're also got a big, big Bachelorette Bachelor fan. Yes, so excited to get Zach Clark on. Let's take a break and then we'll get him on.
All right, so we have mister Bachelorette winner himself, Zach Clark with us on the show to say, today, Zach, how you doing, man.
I'm good, Mike, thanks for having me on.
I was really excited about you. First of all, I was a huge fan of you on the show. I've I got to be honest and Pittsburgh Pam knows this. I I never really watched an entire season. I usually watch like the beginning and then I'll maybe watch the end. But Tasha was by far the best Bachelorette ever. I mean, she was just really confident. She was you know, just
so true. And I loved watching you because I was like, okay, thank you, like someone that has depth and that has a journey and has been through and you know, but you come in with such confidence, and I remember telling my husband, I was like, this is my favorite dude right here. I hope he wins Like he's awesome. I just love your whole journey. And then obviously we talk a lot about addiction on the show, so I'm just excited to get in on all of it right now.
But so, yeah, I'm really excited. I guess one of the things that I was kind of curious was because you seemed so confident describing your journey with Taysha, did you because it didn't come off like you were nervous at all. I mean, are you just kind of like, this is my life and this is what I've been through in the addictions, and or were you nervous telling her that, thinking, oh man, she might send me home.
I mean, I mean my attitude around that was just like any other date I've been on, right, Like, if she's not going to love me for who I am, then it's better that we we end this thing now, then get into it and come to find out that there's going to be an issue there. So for me, like, I'm really proud of who I am and it's a huge part of me. My recovery obviously, and it allows me to live the badass next level of life that I get to live. So yeah, I was just going
to lay it all out there and she obviously. That was one of the things that I was most attracted to in her, is that not only with me, but with all the guys there, she was able to take on a lot of you know, pold space for us, and I think you saw there were some guys there who've been through some stuff. So I definitely noticed that early on with her.
Was that when you when you talked about the addiction in your past and everything, you know, whether on screen or off, did she show a lot of understanding Because there's some people that don't really understand the concept unless they're directly affected by addiction or they just have never experienced any kind of it. So was she understanding of the whole concept of what it means and all that?
She was definitely open minded to it. You know, it's funny, Mike, I think my experience in life has told me usually you tell someone you're a drug addict or an alcoholic or whatever it is, and it goes one of two ways.
It's like, you know, they know that there's a family member or someone that they've been associated with in their lives that have struggled with it, and so they have, you know, some knowledge or education around the topic, or they know nothing about it and they want to throw you in this bucket of like this dude is weird
or sick or whatever it is. And it's funny. She was kind of in the middle, like she didn't have any direct I think, experience with it, but she definitely had an open mind and she asked her all the right questions and some of the things you hear earlier. I'm like, can I drink and then kiss you? I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's yeah.
That she was conscious of even that.
Yeah, yeah, she's a sweetheart.
How was it when you did the hometown dates because I don't remember. I don't Maybe you guys did talk about it, but I don't remember being aired. Was that something that you talked about with her dad.
Or so I'm trying to think how that played. First of all the hometowns, you know, I caught a lot of because I did mine in New York City quote unquote, and I'm from Philly, so Philly was not happy.
I read that not messing with Philly.
It's all right, it's a long life. I'll make it up to him. No, I think her dad. Yes, I got into what I do for work with her old man, and I think that spoke to my just general experience in life. It's kind of like, Okay, I run these programs and do interventions and help people get sober. Okay, how did you get involved in that? Then that always leads into I don't really have much to hide behind because it's not like I'm sober and I work in finance. I'm sober and I work in the feet. It's like
it kind of hits you right in the face. So we got into it, and you know, he was super open minded to it all, which I appreciated.
Was you know, in release recovery, which is which is the you know what you founded with your buddy justin. Is it twelve step based or is there a lot of other elements to it.
Look, we're big believers in twelve step. You know, we've seen we've seen the twelve steps obviously change a lot of lives. And it's crazy to think that like, you know, the stockbroker and this doctor back in the nineteen thirties, like got together and wrote the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that's still like getting a ton of people sober today.
But I will say that, you know, in our programs there are guys and girls that come in that are super resistant to twelve Step and it's our job to kind of, you know, just be shurpas and tell them that, like that's okay, you know, and there's other programs, there's other ways to get connected. But it's not just because you're not into twelve step recovery does not mean you have an excuse to not get connected to other human beings. You know, like we're not going to let that be
a front. And we're very clear on that that that you know, from from from the outset.
Have you have you had people come through that have suffered from sex and love addiction?
Yeah, of course, man, Like we always we always talk about right like seven it's kind of like seven trash cans five with I mean a lot of times when when we see people get sober, that's when a sex edition flares up or eat sorder flares up. And you know, I never personally had the sex thing. I know a lot of people who have, and it's real, Mike, I read a little bit about you. Man, congrats on some of the stuff you're doing. It's inspiring for sure, and for a man to come out and be open with
that stuff, it's cool. You know, Like I need guys like you in my corner, So no question right.
Back at you.
I'm curious though about because I always like feel for Mike because if someone says, yeah, I'm an alcoholic or I'm you know, I'm in I was a drug addict, they're like, oh man, I'm so sorry. But when Mike says he's a sex addict, people are like, oh, like, it's it's.
Like this there's still a stigma around it.
Yeah, where it's they either don't believe it or they think it's an excuse or I mean, how are I guess, like with your recovery and addiction program you're doing, it's like, how how are you helping not like normalize this addiction, but also to make the person not feel so shameful and with any of their addictions.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a big deal for me, and I think it's one of the things that as my career my life continues to evolve, that word stigma. I don't even know how I feel about it right, Like, sometimes I feel like when I use that word, it stigmatizes it more almost, you know, because of just like the sound, I don't know, something weird with that word. It's like
I feel like we're actually doing ourselves at disservice. I mean, I think for me, that just comes back to sharing my experience with people, like really being able to sit them down and you know, aside from getting engagitation having this beautiful love story unfold, like, one of the beautiful things that's come of the show is just this ability to say to people who are in early recovery, like, look, literally anything is possible if you just fasten your seatbelt
and do some of these things and have a willingness to be honest and share with people. And I think it's one of the biggest hurdles that we face in early recovery. It's just that guilt, that shame. How do I date? How do I go out and have a drink?
You know, certainly with the sex addiction thing, and guys that I know who have struggled with that, yeah, there's a lot of guilt and shame around that, and then for their partner, you know, sticking it out with them and all that that comes with it and having kid. You know, it's messy and it's gnarly, but there's hope for sure.
With you being in recovery for the past even so ever since what twenty.
Eleven, Yeah, August twenty eleven.
So for the last you know, going on ten years and this being your your career too, do you find it difficult to not, like, say, put yourself on the show for instance, where you have all these guys who are drinking, are doing these things where you like try not to be judgmental, be like, man, that guy probably needs to come to my program, or like how do you kind of compartmentalize or separate that so you don't have this like judgmental mindset in certain moments like that.
Yeah, I've had to really learn to, you know, keep to myself on some of that stuff and just be be there when people need me, you know. And I think some of my best work has been done by me saying nothing at all and just having people watch the way that I live. And I've had more people come back to me and say, it wasn't what you what you said, It's more of what I saw, you know,
that was attractive to the way you were living your life. Typically, when I call someone out on their sir have an opinion, it doesn't go well, you know, it just doesn't because they're not ready to hear it.
No, aleks don't like to be called out. Come on.
I can see that some of the greatest virtues are you know, caught, not taught. It's like, you know, by showing is probably better than calling out, for sure. I love that.
I'm curious, like you know, because Tasha isn't doesn't know this world as much. Obviously you're helping her. Is there resources that you know, do you do you think she should go to or have you encouraged her to go to like an alan On or any of those places so that she can understand or learn more about, you know, just behaviors and things like that.
Yeah, No, it's uh, it's it's super cool. I mean, like, yes, obviously there's great resources out there with with with anan on and on and just family support groups and a lot of treatment programs, have you know, uh, parents support groups and that type of thing, or partner support groups. So those things are all things that we've started to discuss, and I think we'll get into a little bit more obviously exposing herself to to my personal recovery and what
that looks like. And then you know, as she gets to know some of my friends, you know, like going on a trip with a couple of my buddies who are sober and like their wives, their partners are not like being able to connect with them on that level, to show that like one, you know, we have a load of fun stille and we're not like my blankets. And two that she's not alone right, like that there's other people out there, Like we always joke every wedding
I go to, I'm the last man standing. All the other people are blacked out.
I love that. What's the hardest part of sobriety for you? Like, what's the biggest challenge with staying sober?
I get that question a lot, and I mean it might sound untrue, but the hardest part of sobriety was living the way I used to live. You know, like this, this this thing is not hard to do on a daily basis, Like the obsession to drinking drug for me has has has like lifted you know, I don't I don't think about that stuff. I guess if I had to say one thing, like I feel a lot, you know,
I feel a lot. It's just like I feel other people that feel my and uh, you know, like I'm a I'm a I'm a guy that lives my life. Like I always feel like I'm missing out on something, like I'm a hard charger. But even if I had like some crazy ass day, like I'll think about like the one shot I missed, you know, and that's just me wanting to be perfect and having a little compassion for myself.
So and were you like that at all before the addictions? Like did you have cause you seem like you have this like amazing zest for life and just like you know, full of joy and this light were you were there pieces of you like that before and then you kind of just found them again? Or what's that about?
Hell? Yeah, I mean I had a lot of fun with me. Like in high school, I was like, you know, my superlative was life of the party.
You know, and like I figured, yeah.
You know, and so it was fun for a while. It was fun for a long time. And I still to this day at people in my life that I'll say, dude, like you didn't have an issue. I was like, bro, you were not out on the street with me doing what I was doing, Like I definitely let's just stop
it right there. So yeah, I think there's but there's also I think the other things, like when I did get sober and I did start to, you know, live a different way, it was hard for some of those people in my life, Like there were pieces of me that definitely died, you know, and like in some areas I was a little bit more serious and a little bit more reserved, and some of my closest friends and family had to say, like, are you okay? Are you good?
Everything right? I'm like, yeah, I'm cool, Like I'm just not faced, you know.
Like so uh, Zach, when was because I feel like, you know, we can relate in a way in a lot of ways. But also, you know, obviously there's a lot of spotlight on you right now and with the addiction and with your past and and your journey. You know, I've I've had issues with the spotlight on me as well around my addictions and everything. And I'm trying to be a pillar of support for other men out there
who struggle with addiction, let alone sex addiction. And but I find myself because you know, I've been in the program four years year sobriety, but I find myself still doubting my own you know, not my own recovery strengthen things, but just doubting myself where it's like, why would someone want to like hear from me, Like why would someone want to you know, learn from me? Because I make up when you have ten years, it's a lot easier.
So I guess my question is, at what point during your recovery did you start to see like really let go of that shame and feel confident in helping more people see, you know, be recovered.
I think the old saying is like at five years you get your marbles back, so not to but definitely that first year, like my brain just needed to heal, Like I just needed to like take a time out. And then I think after that, like I really started to find my footing with some of my language. And you know, I'm a people pleaser by nature, so you know, I learned how to say no, you know, and that
was huge for me. And I really just leaned into the fact that like, yeah, you know, there's a lot of smart ass people out there with Ivy League degrees and whatever else. It is but like, my greatest experience or my greatest asset is my experience and just leaning into that and like you know if you don't, I mean, you know how it is, Mike, Like, I had to
learn how to be honest. I had to learn how to like truly be honest and not care what the other person said and then actually like say things that I used to be in so much fear about and have the person across the table act like, oh, that's cool. I'm like, wait, you're not gonna like I'm not in trouble. I didn't do something wrong here.
You know, yeah, story of my life right there.
I mean that right there what you just said, because that's you. You were always afraid that you were going to get in trouble. It's like, no, just be honest. You know, for anyone that's listening that is having a hard time, what are what are some of the first steps to to you know, to just be more honest, and where can they find help? Like what are some great resources and talk about you know, what you're doing at release recovery.
I appreciate that question. I mean, you know, the hardest thing is asking for help for me, Like that's like
that's that's the biggest thing. And there's nothing more heartbreaking than like when we get a call and we go in and we start to consult with the family and you know, we're going to plan this family meeting where we're gonna i mean, I hate the word intervention, but essentially intervene, you know, and seeing that person on day zero, you know, and the family being a mess and all that stuff, you know, and still having that person like the identified patient, if you will say no is heartbreaking
it but it's what keeps me coming back because I've seen that person, like I've been to that guy's wedding, you know, and that's like, that's the true gift in all this, right, and it takes time and patience because recovery is not an overnight matter. But yeah, asking for help, I mean, you know, here at Release Recovery, like we've built we've built a family in a community that's just the doors are always open and the phone is always opened.
So certainly, you know, Release Recovery dot com. You can check us out if you call our main line, like we're gonna get you pointed in the right direction. Absolutely. We started a non for profit early last year and Release Recovery Foundation, where we're scholarshiping people who can't afford
it to to go get some help. I've you know, for many years, worked in this world where it's a lot of private pay people who can quite frankly afford our services, and I just we just saw huge need in the market to help those that couldn't afford it.
So I got my shirt on. Today we're going to be launching our twenty twenty one fundraiser, and all the proceeds from this guy is going to go towards women and people of color getting getting treatment because those are two communities that are really underserved in our world and borderline disrespected, you know. Like I was in treatment with a bunch of white males and the team that treated me was all, you know, white, you know, or whatever it was. And so we're passionate about about the work.
And then and then obviously, like you know, there's Google it. You know, there's plenty of phone numbers out there to call, and there's twelve step communities and smart recovery and refuge recovery and a lot of things that you can do that are that are free. So asking for help, once you do that sky's the limit.
So is release recovery? Is it impatient or outpatient? Are both?
I think the best way to We're a full service recovery companies. We have a seventeen bed program for men north of New York City before five minutes in Westchester County, and then we have two programs in the city, one for men and one for women, so forty beds and that's uh. It's all transitional living. So people that are coming out of treatment okay and struggling with drug addiction or some mental illness stuff, we help get them back
up on their feet. They stay with us about three six months and then you know some of the other work we do with case management and some of the intervention consultation stuff I was talking about. So we do a lot. We've seen it all sinarly going on, you know.
And you did you went to impatient rehab.
Yeah, I did four and a half months at a place out in Pennsylvania, Okay.
You know, I've It's always been a topic for me that I'm always interested in because I commend and respect guys that have gotten sober without doing impatient treatment. I just know for me personally, I never would have been able to if it didn't spend the sixty days I did impatient. But you know, is that something for you?
I mean not to say you doubt people that don't do so something like that, but is it something where you're just like if you're talking to somebody off the street and you're like, hey, you got to get into something. It's not just going to meetings. It's not just doing that. There's God, you have to kick for me again, I have to kick start that. You got to find out where all this comes from. In my personal opinion, but I just want to know your take on it.
Being in the business, yeah, I mean, I'm a product of treatment right like that. I'm never going to tell any like, if you can go to treatment, go you know, who doesn't want to take a month, two months, three months to really work on themselves? And I went twice. The first time I went for a month, I was married at the time. And the best thing to come out of that was my wife learned what a boundary was, and the next time I got high, she kicked my ass out, you know. And for the next eight months
I was ripping and running and whatever happened happened. And then I you know, I ended up backing treatment for four and a half months, and that was what I needed to do, and I'm very grateful for that experience. So if you can do to treatment and do.
Treatment, I gotta well, first of all, I mean, I
love everything this conversation. I was just thinking when you said your ex wife, because I'm one of the reasons why I didn't leave Mike was I was like, I don't want someone else to get the version that like I deserve, that I worked for that I have, Like that I thought I was going to get like I'm not going to get duped, you know what I mean, Like I'm not going to go through this pain and then have somebody else get you like nuhuh, like and you haven't made it easy the last five years, you no,
I'm like, you know, so it's like I can only imagine, you know. I'm sure she's so happy for you, you know, But as as the other side, I'd have been like, damn it, like now you're amazing, so happy and you.
Know, she's cool. She saved my life. I hope she knows that, you know. And like I always say, like, Mike, nice job. But the true heroes and all this are the family members, like the people that stand by us, because.
Like there's no question you can.
Talk, we can talk offline, but it's you know, we it's yeah, you guys are the heroes and and that's you know, I was saying yesterday, I was talking to a friend and like we get to go away. Mike was just saying, like treatment, like and the focus for us for however long we're there is just on us. And you guys are still out in the real world with kids and know other family members, jobs, and you don't have in terms of education and resources and tools. So we're the lucky ones.
Yeah, dang, I agree with that. That's sweet, Like I really needed that validation after all those years you're doing a good Pittsburgh PAM, which you got, Zach.
Do you think that, like, you know, because of your recovery that it really kind of prepared you almost like for the show because I noticed that you were just always so like chill with the process and it didn't seem to be like any of it affected you. When I there's a lot of guys that come in and just too much stuff gets in their head and then they end up like sabotaging themselves. And their whole experience. But I just like did not notice any of that with you.
No. I mean I think my life prepared me for that moment honestly, and not just the recovery piece. But I come from a really good family. And you know, I was joking because it's like, you know, rehab right like this season and I don't know anything about the bat Like this whole thing was all new to me. But apparently there's a lot of travel and other stuff in other seasons, but we were in this bubble, which
for me was like treatment again. Kick your phone. I'm like, sweet, I'm back in rehab, like failure, cute girl, and talk about your feelings in this camera like I can do that.
You were made for it. I know that. Like gratitude and like Tasha has talked about you, just being such like a thankful man has been like really important and you know one of the reasons that like she fell in love with you. Do you do any like specific type of like gratitude practices or is it just something that you just like you know, exude from your body like on a daily basis or is it more of like a ritual of something that you do?
Oh? Yeah, I appreciate. I mean, look, I try to live in gratitude obviously, that's that's like one of the my core beliefs. We have to be grateful. And I just I mean, I have my daily routine that on my good days, like I'm up early in the morning, I'm meditating, I'm getting centered, I'm doing the things that I need to do in order to you know, walk out into the world and be a be a human. And for me, like you know, whether you're believing like God,
for me is like an actors a verb. It's an auction word, you know, like you I'm able to show that in my daily life. And certainly I've done gratitude list, and I believe in the power of like pen to paper and writing and that kind of thing. So yeah, I don't know, that's all I got there.
I have a question about because I know, like living with an addict in Mike always says he's like, I can't I can't say I'll never do this again. And he's like, that's right, is that's kind of like you said like in program, like you can't say you'll like you're gonna live like you'll never do to like you want you how do you say it?
So I don't know, it's there's just no Unfortunately, being an addict, you lose the privilege of using the word never or claiming that you'll never do something again.
So because of that, you know, sometimes I have that fear because there have been a few relapses and you know, and he kind of knows like where I'm at, Like there's only so much personally that I think the other person, Yeah, it's gone through, it can go through where it's just like I got I have nothing left right Like there's so I'm curious, like have you had those conversations with Taysha about you know, like is she fearful of a relapse?
Because that's that's my biggest fear is like, Okay, we've putting all this work and I'm like I'm fearful for them if there's a next one because I can't. I can't do it anymore. I can't handle it anymore. So it's like I have everything out there, our life, our work, everything we do together, and it's like and it's like, well, I pray to he shows up, but it's it's hard.
So it's like I don't has that been something that you know, y'all have talked about with the fears that potentially come up around that, or you just I mean because you are ten, you know, ten years strong in it, that you don't have really that fear or she doesn't, No, I.
Mean that's it's a real thing. I mean, I've heard about guys with twenty five years going back out right like and for whatever reason, and life comes at you fast like I don't. That's part of I think having a partner in life, you're going to go through trials
and tribulations together. I mean I have explained to her, and no offense to her or to you or anyone else who dates someone like myself, like is that our RecA Like for me, I'll speak to myself like, my recovery must come first, right and it has to no matter what, and everything else kind of stems off of that. And when I'm living that way, I got a pretty
good shot to stay in this thing. But we've had conversations about that and what that looks like, and you know, I think she understands that if something was to happen down the line, like we would have to really have a conversation and see what that looks like and there's different degrees to a relapse, like did I go out on a tough day and get hammered because I was feeling sorry for myself or that I you know, end up you know with a needle in my own you know, like and everything in between.
So setting that's yeah, that's kind of like, you know, we have certain the boundaries in the circles and circle of recovery.
But yeah, and what I've told Jane, I was like, at least for me, you'll see the writing on the wall before it gets to that point, before it gets to that, you know, blow up inner circle, step outside the marriage again, Like there's it's going to be a transitional thing for me. It's not yet, no, you hope not. But just the way I am with my emotions now and you being able to read me like a book and asking me what's wrong or are you okay? Before I even have of the intelligence to express it, like
you read me like a book. There's one question. I remember the question I was gonna ask earlier, Zach before we let you go, And it was about family and you're talking about you know, you have a great family and all that stuff, and you're commending that it is the your significant others. It is the people around you. Those are the real heroes. And you know, guys like our people like us in our lives that have been
able to find recovery. I know that my parents went through and maybe you still at times go through periods of guilt and shame where they they almost want to blame themselves. And I've said this numerous times on this show and in other interviews, where I'm like, what I explained to my parents is like you could take sales a twin and we had the same life experience, It went through the same things, the same memories or whatever. He or she could turn out completely different than I did.
He or she could have when in a different direction, could have handled feelings a different way, regardless of you know, us being raised the exact same way. So have your parents Did your parents ever express that to you, like, did they feel responsible in a way and how did you kind of you know, mend that.
There's a couple of things. Through my work, I've I've really become grateful for my family because I think in the grand scheme of things and looking at all the families I've worked with, my family's actually pretty healthy. You know, and like, there's a lot of families out there that
that struggle. And one of the things I try to tell not just my family, but the families that we work with, is this whole it sucks, Like this whole recovery thing sucks and treatment things sucks because there's just no playbook. Like you got someone with cancer, you got someone with diabetes, you got someone like here you go, this is what you got to do. And you do these things and you support them and you love them and you bake them cakes and hopefully they you know,
get well. But with this thing, it's like, you know, parents can can do everything right and still you know, being going to their kids funeral, and that's just the reality of of this world we live in. So for me, it's just important to let my parents know that I
love them and that I'm grateful for them. One of my favorite parts of the entire season, if you will, which I don't even like to think of it like that because it was real life for me, was the opportunity to sit there and just tell my mother, you know, like what she has meant to me because she will be there when when she is going wrong, but she'll never take credit when things are going right, you know, and like so trying to let her know how much
she's meant to me in my journey. But yeah, parents always feel guilty and it's it's one of the hardest things to live through because at the end of the day, Mike, like, I know you're not a bad guy. I know I'm not a bad guy, but like, we do things that make us look like bad people.
So oh yeah, anything else.
You're just such a good dude. Thank you for sharing your story and your journey, and I just, yeah, I appreciate you. And you know, I look at you and Mike and I think you guys are you guys are so incredibly strong and brave to be sharing your story and putting it out there and just know how many people you're helping.
So you guys, at we live in Nashville.
Where do you live?
Okay, I'm in New York in the city. But the things open up, I hope to cross paths, you know, will.
That would be awesome, Yeah, that would be great. Where can our listeners find you, Zach?
I think my Instagram handle is z A C. W. Clark. Yeah, and uh, release recoveries, release like let go release recovery dot com and then our nonprofits Release Recovery Foundation dot org call the mainline, hit us up. My email is Zach at Release Recovery dot com. I respond to emails like if it's an email purpose not if you're just saying hi and you saw me on the show.
Do you know how many emails you're going to get? Now?
All right, it's all good, it's all good. We're handling them. Your Instagram is z W Clark. Oh, there you go, maybe my maybe my Twitter.
You are so funny, and that's how I know you're my kind of guy right there, because.
Mike doesn't have social media, so I only make him do social media once a week on mine, Mike mondays and then I'm like, give me a day off. So yeah, but thank you so much, z. I appreciate it and hope to see you in either New York or Nashville. Al Right, guys, Oh he was so sweet, gosh, like just I mean, I knew he was going to be like that.
You know, he's just like to say that. That's how you know somebody is so cool is when they're like the same person no matter what, you know.
Yeah, I mean he's just like who he He's so confident, Yes.
Very confident, very comfortable and you and it just naturally uses out of him. You just you can experience it even through a computer screen.
I feel like you guys would be really good friends. We'd be bro my.
God and unentation would totally.
Oh love each other. And then like, because you know Pittsburgh Cam, you know, like you can come over to so much fun. Let's take a break and then let's go to some emails, Mark, what do you got for us?
Okay, this is.
A heavy one. This is from anonymous. I emailed a couple of years ago and told you about discovering my husband's sex addiction. Ever since then, we went to counseling and he even connected with Mike. At the beginning, things had been better. But about a year ago he stopped counseling and we've had some rocky times, but it seemed to still be on the path to trust being regained. Fast forward to recently. We bought our first home. Now we have a two and a half year old and
I'm eight months pregnant. Two days ago, I received the message I had been hoping to never see. He was a woman telling me with proof of screenshots that she's been seeing my husband for a few months and apologizing for not knowing he was married. I'm at a complete loss. You're with our second child in three weeks. I don't have a beautiful home that I don't know how to care for or live in on my own. What the
hell do I do? I stopped setting expectations long ago and knew this was a possibility, but I am still in shock. I know it wasn't done to intentionally hurt me, but obviously I'm heartbroken. Looking for any advice you have to offer. I'm pretty certain I can't stay in this marriage as he didn't follow through with the things.
I had asked.
My heart breaks for you because it is the worst when you feel betrayed again and to see that come up and I can't even imagine being pregnant almost do like I like that just broke my heart. Do you remember talking to him, and I know you've talked to a few dudes.
Yeah, I would have to look back.
I mean it sounds like he maybe didn't do the like kind of like what you and Zach talked about, like he made he didn't do the treatment, you know, because like you kind of said, counseling. Sometimes you need the bigger, the bigger push to.
To you got to it's like you have to get out of reality to start experiencing reality, almost like you have to you have to get out of the world and just going to this place of just constant spiritual and introspection to figure out this stuff.
Can I play Devil's Advocate though, just for a second, Yeah, because if I was her, I would say, well, I mean, you went to treatment. You almost had someone show up at the hotel room a year almost a year and a half, two years later, so then clearly treatment didn't work. Well that does that make you sue I'm trying to like, so it's.
Like, what, yeah, well, you're making it black and white, which I understand, but it unfortunately it's not. It's not. There's not you know, just like Zach was saying on the thing, it's like, there's not a playbook for this. Like it's not like, all right, if you go to impatient treatment, then you're good, you know what I mean. It's it's something you live with for the rest of your life. It's a disease you live with for the rest of your life. So you know, but that's part
of the thing too. That was my biggest knock on the treatment I went to was they don't. All you do is talk about yourself and figure out your own and then you step out into the world and you get and you get your teeth kicked in by reality.
Wait, can we just talk about that for just one second before we get back to this email, because I'll never forget the phone call that you made to me when you got out of rehab and I quote, Hey, where are you at? I need my computer? And I was like what, I'm sorry, excuse me, and you go, I need my computer. It's mine, Jane. I have a right to have my stuff. And I'm like, well, not the pretty much, and you you're like no, and you go.
I was like, well, we need to download things, and you're like, I have, And then you started to go like I have my rights I have.
I'm like, you.
Don't know, because I'm like, I'm like broken over here.
Because they teach you about boundaries, but again they don't. They only talk about they talk about your own self care and not the people that you've destroyed. And so I come out like, listen here, lady, I got boundaries.
I've got boundaries, and Jane's like, go your boundaries. It's like no, no, no, no, I get a few em.
So those, yeah, there's that, there's that learning curve to to come back into reality after you're in the safety pink cloud bubble of you know, impatient rehab.
But okay, but back to this girl though, right, I mean, obviously she wanted to work on the Obviously she was willing to stay in the beginning. And I totally understand when you said, I don't know if I could stay in this marriage now. And that's the same thing that I kind of felt when you know, when we you know, when that relapse happened and I found out I was
pregnant with Jace. Like, I totally get that feeling. Having said that, if you're not out now, I don't feel like you're gonna get out because you still are holding hope that maybe he can change, which is why I kind of always stayed too, because you're like holding hope. But you have to You're gonna need to if you want to stay, because you love him. Obviously you have another baby on the way with him, You're gonna have to set real clear boundaries. If you haven't already. Does
that make sense? Like she's gonna have to be like, look, you you go to treatment. Kind of like what I said to you, I was like, go figure your stuff out, and you need to go check into treatment. Which is so hard for a mom that's about to have a baby and already toddler at home. But I mean maybe that's that's their last ditch hope to maybe save their marriage. I don't know, Pam, what do you think?
Yeah, you know, I mean I've you know, dealt with this as a child, and you know you're my mom treated no just you know, like the whole boundaries and like addiction and things and so yeah, like my mom finally after so many times was like you know, she she had two little kids, you know, the same thing, like what it had no you know house, and but she she there was too many boundaries broken constantly, and she did leave.
There's a there's a point when you're just like you know, you're done, you know, like you get simphere like I'm done. And my friends and always said like you'll just know it's and it'll be just be like you're done. Having said that, something has to happen here where she sees some kind of something that he's i think, willing to do to fight for the marriage because clearly he's an active addiction.
And it's got to be significant. K.
Well, that's what I mean, like treatment, And if.
It's not because of the life situation they're in with a baby on the way and she doesn't want to add even more stress or pain. I mean, that's her decision to make up. But whatever boundary she puts in place, as long as it's not harmful or belittling or disrespectful to him like what like, yeah, like you can't do anything at all except for good to work and come like you know what I mean, Like you still have to have some understanding of whatever. But I'm not saying
go out to the bars. I'm not saying do anything social like that. But if he wants to go and just have a beard a buddy's house or something and life through six, he needs to be on the phone, COVID and ie.
No more social media.
Yeah, no social media. Wipe out anything that can be an outlet for that. So he is he is put in this lane and it as a guy, especially who's someone in active addiction and doing stuff, he's going to be defiant towards it. Probably he's gonna have issues. He's gonna feel like I feel like a child. Well, you're acting like a child, you know what I mean. That's that I had to deal with and overcome for a long time.
I'm really sorry, Beb. I'm sorry.
I yeah, We're just it sucks. And so it's your call to your decision on what you want, and we know it's not easy, and so we're just kind of talking through options that you have. And what you know, what Jana's therapists told her is like, was it no major life decisions in the first six to twelve months, No major life decisions. So she that's the thing I think she needs to realize, let the storm settle. She doesn't have to make the decision right now.
Yeah, that's good advice.
Nothing's going to change if you make the decision right now.
Just but yeah, but if you are going to considering, just like he has to go buy those boundaries of getting off social media life three sixty on the phones coven and I is on the computers. And that's not to baby them or be their parent. That's just protection and for safety for both of you. But we'll be thinking of you, and please email us and let us know how we can help you more.
And if you like me to talk to him again.
Then have him reach out again.
Have him reach out or email or what's her iHeart email.
Wind down at iHeartRadio dot com.
So, yeah, if your husband wants to email us there, iHeart team will get that to me and we'll go from there.
Do we have any other ones?
Mark we do?
Melissa?
Is it a total downer?
The bottom line is she has a nineteen month old son with her husband. She wants baby number two, but husband is dead set on not having another. She says they can't imagine my son being only child and being alone in holiday events and it's daycare or played it for socialisation. I bring it up every few months, but it always ends up with me sobbing and him telling me no, he's embarrassed by the person he was when my son was a newborn and our marriage almost didn't survive.
He's afraid he will become that awful person again and our marriage won't survive the second time. I can't accept that he's accepting the behavior and not willing to work on it and try for the sake of my needs of being a mother?
How do I navigate this.
Rough week?
In the emails?
Yeah, I think there's a little bit more to this one. I mean, he's saying he wasn't a good person when they had the newborn and he doesn't want to be that person again. But to me, that's kind of like a you know, an excuse to something else. I think there's a little bit more deeper than that.
Yeah, it's one hundred percent work he needs to do, he needs the man, but.
But you know, if it's not something he wants though, I mean I think.
Yeah, that's different, But that's different than saying he doesn't want to be the person he was when their first song was a newborn.
Sure, then work on yourself.
Saying he doesn't want another kid, he's like turning it now into all about him.
Right, which is not fair, and saying that this newborn had that much effect on him negatively, which sucks to hear. Gosh, Yeah, like that's not encouraging. So how do you navigate it?
If you're under thirty two? Divorce him? You still got time to find someone enough.
You're over, you got you got therapy, Yeah, do some therapy and then therapy there just hold him a.
Little tighter when you guys have sex. Bridgerton is asked, Yeah, I would.
I would try to get a third party involved here, because nothing you say, Melissa will be able to will enlighten him. Unfortunately, from the sounds of it, he's stuck in his around this, so he needs a third party to talk this out.
We agree, and we also are going to choose the Bridgerton Act.
Bridgerton Act.
Great show, guys, Pittsburgh, Pam, thanks for joining us.
Always happy to be with you.
All right, guys, see you next week.