Adult Education: When True Crime Gets Real

Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.

Hi honey, Hello, Hello, what you got from me?

Yeah, I've been looking at ways to up upgrade my scaring game, you're what? We have this thing. We have this game that we've played on't where ice.

It's fun, such a fun game because you.

Actually marriage to scale me. Okay, and I'm going to try and have to get I'm going to have to get more creative.

So what he's saying is is that we have I have scared him more times than he has scared me. We like to well, I've only done it.

Do you believe that statement?

Yes? I do, because illusion eventually we will do a He's he has this thing where he records trying to scare me. But I know now where he is when he's doing like I just know, like when it's quiet, I know that he's most likely going to be around door number one. So and then my first thing is I'll walk into a room many times that he has these recordings. I'm looking now for the phone to be like, I know you're right there, and the other day you had you had it facing where I could actually see

Want to tell him about the laundering room one? Which one the one that I told you I asked you I can collect my water bottle from the laundry room because you thought I was in the gym.

Yeah, that was the one that actually scared me.

Actually, I think you might yourself a little bit.

That one was scary, but you didn't get that one on camera.

But anyway, my point is I'm starting to step up, so I.

Know how I feel about that, Like for what is like, what is the purpose of this? Because I've only scared you now twice and I stopped because I'm like, you know, it's.

Because I'm competitive. It's getting to the point where you're walking.

You're doing it because I'm now, you're not scaring this. So every time you try, it's like you've now you have about fifteen fails and so you're do so okay. So the point is, because you haven't scared me, You're going to continue till you can scare me.

And I'm going to get it on camera because it's annoying me that So what happens is the house goes silent, right.

If the kids are in bed, The best one was Jay's because Mommy, come in here. Alan's not going to scare you. And I said, thanks, baby, Alan, get away from the.

Door underneath the bed.

I was like this sweet. I was like, you're such my little boy, Mommy. It's okay, you can come in. Alan won't scary.

I love his under the bed for fourteen minutes.

Literally, or like when romans like stomach will gurgle and like you're holding him and I'm like.

By Alan, oh my ankles will click.

Okay, but go ahead. So you're doing this because do you want to.

Oh, it's got to the point now where if the kids are in bed and the house is silent, and I try and hide, you're you're actually like trying to see from there. You're trying to send he from there. So therefore you're walking around thinking he's beying that door, he's buying that door. You step up.

I'm going to tell you one thing that's where you will find yourself in a hotel room if anything involves you going out. Because one of my worst fares when I'm home alone and I you know, we have a very wooded area behind our backyard. I think like a movie and a true Crime Brain, which is very exciting because we have a true crime podcaster coming on for

It's not an over I'm assive.

But I just I, you know I. And then we have our entire wooded it's all wooded in the back, so trees, and it's when we have no windows like cover, like privacy.

You're creating a very easy pictchre for creepy people.

Then maybe right, but I'm just saying, like, yes, we will find you. And there are cameras, so I want to say that, but I still have that image where because there aren't shades, I have this fear where I'm going to look out one night and I'm going to see like a person standing there and I swear to God if that is you one of those nights, I will like I will just send you your like throw your keys out the door and a little duffel bag

The lifelike masks on Amazon, I will one of them is even get real stubble.

And seriously like it does a big no. Can we just do what you've been doing recently, the half attempts of trying to scare me. I just couldn't do that. But it's really sweet that you want to.

It's just it's just a funny game because there's no go out to the point where you're laughing at me because I can't scare you. Yes, so I'm gonna have to be creative.

Well, I can't say you did something and I can tell you. We can tell you guys the following week. But he did something that involved wearing a mask. But again we can't say how or where, but we can tell you next week. So stay tuned.

Well, Bedroom Secrets.

No, it involves with something that I'm not allowed to say something, so but we can say how you tried to scare me with a certain mask. But because I'm not allowed to talk about it yet, I can't say it anyway, So you don't even have You don't even know.

I thought even know what you're talking about.

Perfect you'll find out next week too. Anyway, speaking of though we have today's episode, we've a true crime podcaster coming on. It's a new show on iHeart Podcast. It's called The Unborn, and I'm I'm a big true crime fan. I love it. It's one of those things where I forget.

I love I love true crime, and I'm actually intrigued because Tresha has got a background and film and TV. So why she's decided they've decided to make this a podcast and not a movie or a TV show, Well that striegues me.

Yeah, all right, let's get our guest, Tricia la Fash coming on. She is the podcast host of the new iHeartRadio show called Unborn, the true crime series. It's a true story. Let's get her on.

Hi, guys, Hi, how are you nice to meet you? I'm Tricia, I'm Jana.

This is Alan. Alan lovely to meet you and chat with you, and we'll just hop right in because I just finished episode three when I need to know when episode four is coming because I'm like a true crime girl, and I was just saying, how I like, my brain just always goes to like when I'm home alone, I'm like that true crime Like I'm always freaking out and I'm just he was like, no, that's paranoia. But either way, like it's still I just get so sucked into these

Well mine, you know, it was kind of my decision because I was concerned.

I'm a true crime fanatic.

Like love, love, love, and I loved the process of making this, and I was so intrigued by the story. I thought it was so compelling. It really was a crime that I had never heard of before. You know, similarly to like when Gypsy Rose Blanchard came on the scene with Munchausen's this pseudosysis was not your normal cookie cutter situation, but I had a lot of concern about hurting somebody, you know, the woman.

Who did what she did.

You know, it was just kind of like a tightrope situation where Jared wanted to tell his story and so we wanted to help him tell it, but I just wanted to make sure that we did it in a way that it wouldn't readily identify her if she didn't want to be identified.

I have a semi question around that, because I get that piece of it, but also, is it known to the public the story.

It's not. No one's ever written about it, nobody's.

Ever in the news. It wasn't in the news.

It wasn't in the news.

Okay, So okay, got it, gues. So it's not leading to like Okay, got I gotta get it. But is this is Jared's name made up too?

Yes, both of them.

He has actually since gone rogue and decided to tell everybody it's him, so we'll see what happens with that.

But yes, it just fell into our laps.

I'm actually shocked that nobody ever wrote anything about this, but obviously, you know, we were just so fascinated by it and really spoke to him. I it wasn't more than two days after everything happened, and we wanted to, you know, tell this story and just thought it was

It's it's heard of.

As you hear another pseudosciesist survivor on episode three, she you know, is a really smart girl who has a lot of support and she she really couldn't understand why her body was not listening to what the information was coming into her head.

And you know we we haven't spoken to Christy.

I would love to speak to her if she ever wanted to talk to us, uh, to hear her side of it.

But yeah, that's the.

Thing, like I that's the side too, And I was telling Alan earlier. I'm like, man, I just I would love to hear the other side of it as well, because it's hard to understand when you have It's kind of like, all right, I have anxiety. He doesn't have anxiety, So if he doesn't understand what it's like for someone to have anxiety and then trying to so it's like you want to almost hear the other person's side of

Yeah, that's like the confusing bit because I mean, this is there's a lot more to the story that we have. We will cover in the next four episode. It's because they're seven. But she definitely had pseudocyesis in the sense that her and I'll send you a picture of her as well. But her belly was fully looked like a pregnant woman's belly.

And that wasn't like that wasn't like a she wasn't like putting pillows or stuffing it or anything. No, that is wild.

No, it's a psychosomatic disorder, which is extremely.

Mental.

You know, the body, I mean, the body keeps the score right, so when you have anxiety, when you have stress, it results. But with this condition, you stop having your period, you lactate, you know, all of the things, cravings, frequent reurination, all the things that we talked about on the show.

But most times, every doctor we've spoken to, anyone who had.

Any experience with this, says that when people see that ultrasound, they start the process of understanding that there is not a baby in the belly, even if they rejected at first, you know, like no, check again, check again, I know I'm pregnant. I know I'm pregnant. I feel pregnant. I don't feel well. I'm this that my body's changing it.

Yeah, see that's that's the piece too where I'm like, was, which which one was? It? Can it be both?

And I think it's true?

Or yeah, I think it has to be both, right, yeah, because it was the you know, she medically she had it, but because of the lengths that she went to to cover her tracks and to uh convince people that she was pregnant, there seems to be some kind of split in her, right, So I wonder I would love to know.

You know, it seems like there's times.

Of the day where she believes she's pregnant and then there's moments where because she had a gender reveal, right, so somebody writes down on a piece of paper for your girl, right, and her friend made the cake, and we have video of her like girl going ballistic, like screaming, jumping, you know, and it seems a doctor didn't write girl on a piece of paper to give to her to give to her friend.

Somebody wrote it.

Right, And it's also like I know it was during the COVID piece. But at the same time, I mean, babe, just think about all the appointments that we just had for Roman and the amount of times like can you imagine if I was pregnant and you didn't want to say like can I see an ultrasound picture of the baby? Or can I come see the baby? Or I know, like they didn't allow certain amount of people in the rooms for those things, and not many women got checked

Yeah, I think he did see an image. Was it a real image?

That's the thing?

Yeah?

Yeah, okay, yeah, was it a real image?

That's you know, she ordered sonograms that had her name on them and the hospital's name and the date, and you can get them online and they say, if you look it up, it says prank.

You know, like if you guys, you know, twenty years from now.

You say surprise, babe, Like they all have these disclaimers that say it's you know, gag purposes only and so on.

And so forth. But it wasn't very funny to him.

So no, I mean, it's such an interesting story. Essure, You've got a background in film and TV. What made you I said this to Elen, what made you go the of making a podcast and not a documentary or a TV show or a movie.

Well, if I'm being perfectly honest with you, we would love to do a movie or a TV show about this, and a documentary as well. But it was something that we felt could thrive first in the podcast space and then as IP go to a series, a limited series or a film like a Lifetime film or something like that.

Wow.

When I was listening to the to the first part of the of the podcast, and my brain automatically went to, why have they not made this a movie? Because it's it almost sounds like you remember the Blair Witch project. Yeah, remember that, and that ended up a really successful movie then, and straight away I'm thinking this could be like like the Blair Witch Project, like a real life situation that's

Yeah, I know. I was. I was like, all right, next episode, next episode, like feet, I was just feeding the baby down there, like next episode.

Yeah.

And that's the thing too, like you know, everybody was like, oh my god, moms are going to dig this, and like you have three children, right, yeah, and so congratulations and I was like, yeah, I think but like I'm not a mom, and I think it's wild. And we everybody that we've had dinner with, that we've pitched or whatever, whether they be I uh, single couples, you know, young

Been like mm hm past the salt.

You know, everyone's just right, like you know what, Yeah, I mean That's why I'm when when did the episodes drop because now I need to.

Tuesdays, so then next episode four will be out on Tuesday.

Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait to find out more.

So your enthusiasm for true crime. I think everyone in this space is a real love true crime. Did your true crime fascination and interest grow from being a criminal defense lawyer or did you have it before? Then?

Well did they even have true crime before I was growth? I think for sure that my true crime love grew out of being a criminal defense attorney. So I'm also raised by a criminal defense attorney. My dad's a criminal defense attorney, which is why I went to law school to maintain his love, even though I wanted to be an actor the whole time. And I think that I actually loved being a lawyer and I was pretty.

Good at it.

You like to play one instead, yes, exactly.

Exactly, which I've done multiple times.

Right, So, but I do think that when I miss I miss courtroom stuff, and so I kind of sit.

There and I'm like objection or you know, like.

I follow the I like to follow the trials on TV too, and then I'm like, I would have done that differently, you know, So I do think there definitely is a connection for me.

Speaking of you, you know, doing that. What is one of your favorite true crime stories that you've you've heard?

I mean I watched so many they all blend, But this one that really jarred me recently was this woman who gave her child away for adoption and then thirty years later was.

Asked for the body test.

Yeap.

Yeah, and then the mother knew where she was and they called her crazy.

Yeah, like she's like she's in that backyard. Oh yeah, Like that is the mother's intuition for sure, like my child is there, likes.

Even thinking about it. But yeah, I mean I also, I mean the Staircase. I think I've watched that twice.

I don't think I've seen that one. What are what are your thoughts on the Menda's brothers.

Ooh, you know. I think that.

Whenever you get a second trial, it's tough for the defense because the prosecution has the opportunity to fix all the stuff that they did wrong or they didn't land with the jury in the first in the first time.

And I do think that.

If it was being tried today, the evidence of the sexual abuse would.

Come more into play. Yeah.

I also think that thirty years is a long time.

And if the State of California, who is you know, know, the plaintiff in this case, because it's a criminal matter, right, So it's not mister missus, Menandez versus their sons, it's the State of California versus them.

If the State of California, meaning.

The District Attorney's office, thinks that this is the right move, and they're not only not opposing the defense's request for them to be released, but they're saying that they also think that they should be released, then who am I to judge, you know, in the sense that that there are the people that make the decisions about prosecution and so on and so forth, they seem comfortable with it.

You know.

I tend to believe victims, and I think that there was a lot of you know, hullabaloo going on. And I do think the thing with Manudo, the you know, the kids from Manudo coming forward did help them in some way.

So I say, you know, good for them, bad for their parents.

But even but I feel like even Kitties family members and they're supporting it as well. They think that they've been in long enough. Yeah, I'm for it, How about you guys.

I don't know. I've got a mixed I've got a mixed opinion on it and a mixed view on it because I don't regardless of the situation, the sexual abuse too, to commit, to commit the brutal crime that they did is I would just be scared that they get out and something like that happens again.

Like killing someone.

Yeah, yeah, because they pick it and listen, I get they were it was aggravated and there's a lot of abuse, but they've still picked up a shotgun and shot someone out of anger. So I don't. But again, my view is I've also I've also got empathy for what they went through, So I'm kind of split down the middle. But for two guys who went through that amount of abuse and torture, there's a part of me wants to see them released for sure.

Is there a true crime out there that you are like, they got it wrong, They just got it wrong, especially with your background too, with you know, the criminal defense.

Oh that's such a good question. I'm trying to think.

I know, there's so many and they all blend together, but I was just you know.

I don't know.

I feel, like I said obviously oj it got that one wrong.

Right one, which at the time I didn't think. So you know, at the time, I was very happy that he got a quitted and I looked back at that person and I was like, wow, you were wrong. But I would like to know more answers about who uh took Casey Anthony's daughter's life.

I wish that because I like, I love true crime, but I hate unsolved mysteries. I don't see what's fun about.

Unsolved mystery at all. Like I want the answer, I want to know. I want to see police doing great work. I want to see detectives caring.

You know, I don't. I don't like unsolved mysteries.

It I just don't see what's fun about it because it's like what happened?

So I feel like there, I do feel like there's a part of me that feels like her parents were involved in that and she was just like cool.

But I'm not sure because I wish that's in one that I'm not sure about.

I totally hear you in the unresolved ones because even the I mean the Jean Benet Ramsay's, I mean, we grew up with that story and I'm like, I'm always like what happened to that sweet little precious girl, you know?

Yeah?

And to not have that resolve is I mean, gosh, for the family, I can only imagine it's so hard. But then from people that were invested in the news stories and trying to be like, you know, what actually happened? Yeah, So what movie did we just watch?

That?

Was it a true story? It was? It was the story very gosh, who uh where the guy was raping those girls and she escaped and she called? Was that the movie?

Was the hour that Anna Kendrick one yea yeah.

Because can you imagine all the people that you know, these these guys are still out there doing And there was another one too that he had like all these other women that he was killing and raping and I'm just like wow.

And he was out three for like twenty years before, like like he didn't go straight in that guy, which is wild.

Yeah.

And the fact that, I mean, it's crazy because we live in this you know, digital era, Like when I

Know, we were just like, what's going on? They're they're pinging all over the place, you know.

So what do you why do you think people are as obsessed as they are about true crime?

I don't know. I read a meme that said that we might be psychotic, but I don't.

Read that too.

Yeah, I didn't love it.

I read that too.

I'm like, I've been attacked.

I do think for me, you know, part of it is I like to see the investigation. I like to see when the detectives are really smart, you know.

And I like to see justice for the family. I enjoy that a lot. Obviously.

I don't like the idea of glorifying the murderer, you know, And I do think that Anna Kendrick did a lovely job of not doing that and with the lens in Women of the Hour, because I thought he was a creep from jump.

But I think that that's I think that's what it is.

I think I like to see when justice is served for the families, which sounds weird because I was a criminal defense attorney, but I you know, I was a federal criminal defense attorney, so they don't have jurisdiction over murder per se unless it's a Rico case. You know, the states have the jurisdiction over murder. So we did a lot more of like drugs and white collar stuff. And you know that.

I guess that was one of my questions because it must be so hard as a defense lawyer. And I don't know if you defended someone else but they've committed the heinous crime and you know they're guilty, but you have to defend them. Yeah, so you think you've just answered that saying that it was more kind of white collar crimes.

Well, no, it actually well, okay, truth be told.

I stopped practicing law because of a case that I bumped heads with my former employer on that I didn't want to do, and that was really damaging to me.

And I knew that the I believed that.

The young man was guilty, like my dad is the type of lawyer who's like, well, the kid didn't do it. I'm like, no, he did it. The burden is proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's just see what they have.

People.

Also, I did federal work, so I didn't win a lot because they don't just like somebody robbed a liquor store.

Let's figure it out, you know. They they really you know, the first case.

I ever had, they had tapped the phone of my client, the email account, and his fax machine for eight years before they even indicted him. So that was a long time to be watching him to find something, and so I was kind of liked to be like, Okay, they did this, but they didn't do that, And.

Yeah, I think that I don't know, I guess I.

Believe in the constitution, and I think that, you know, the police should do their job the right way, but do your job.

You know, right, And I kind of I mean, I see how everyone should have their right to have a lawyer and to have someone defend them, but also like that, yeah, that's that's a heavy, like a hard line, because it's like, how can someone defend somebody that has done something so terrible and then try to be like, let's get some years off, like you know, but also they have their own they have we all have our rights.

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't It wasn't particularly easy for me. I loved getting to know people that I would have never been friends with or bumped into on the street and get to know their life story and realize that there's a pattern of abuse and neglect and poverty, and you know, it was you know, meeting people that I was like, Wow, if you were even raised in my crazy family, you probably would be at Harvard.

But then you also meet sociopaths that you're like, okay, jre see hopefully never, but.

You know for sure, Yeah, what point in your in your legal career that like, I've always been interested, at what point does someone choose to be a defense lawyer and then someone choose to be a prosecution because I've always thought it would be so not easier, but a more fulfilling role to be a prosecution.

Yeah.

I was raised by a criminal defense attorney. When I went to law school, I wanted to be an actor anyways. I literally I think I took the alsat what the day I came home from spring break. You know, I was just like whatever. I went to Brooklyn Law School, the Princeton of Nowhere, and I got an agent immediately, and I really realized quickly that if I was going to practice law, it wasn't going to be contracts or corporations or real estate.

I was going to do criminal law.

So my last year of law school, I signed up for a trial advocacy class, right, which is where you perform like you're in court. But I signed up on a Monday because I figure, well, if I get to play theater Stark on Monday, so I won't have to miss the class. Randomly, I get assigned the the DA of Brooklyn as my teacher, and I do my opening statement, I do my closing statement, I do a direct exam. He caused me in the holloway. He's like, you're hired, come work for me. I was like, no, I want

And then by the time it was for us.

To start for the class of das to start, we were deep in that trial that I was telling you about about the client that was seven years followed eight years, and it just it kind of didn't make sense, like I had been working with him for so long. I was, you know, it was like a year later. I didn't want to miss the trial that I had worked so hard on. It was an eight month trial. I didn't want to abandon them, So I just did end up going.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, and now you know obviously been in a bunch of shows. Is in your husband he's a writer? Yeah, so are you guys gonna you know, write and then start in like a scandalish kind of show like you know, did you guys work well together?

Or yes, I think we do work well together. We're actually writing a legal thriller right now. It's based on a book that a really cool studio offered him to adapt. And he was like, can I my wife's lawyer, and I'll do the shoot him up bank bank stuff and she'll do the courtroom stuff.

So we're doing that, and yeah, I mean, I would love to.

I wrote a pilot that's based on my experience being a young federal defense attorney in New York City.

Yeah, so, I mean I love the law.

I love it. I love being a lawyer, So I would love to. I would play lawyer on TV for the rest of my life. If I could, to be honest, I mean.

It's I'm trying to think, like it's it would be so fun, you know, to do that. I mean I always think back and think scandal is amazing. And then Jake Gillenhall, I thought he killed it as a lawyer, I don't know, presumed innocent. Oh my god. I thought it was so good.

Yeah.

It was one of my favorite roles of his that he's that he's done because I was just I was in I believed him, like, yeah, it was great. I loved it so good. Those courtroom scenes, like when actor can nail that courtroom scene, it's just like the best.

Yeah, like wow, yeah, it's crazy.

I mean, you know it's it's what's really funny is that I was the Well, I don't know if it's funny, it's just kind of ironic. I was the on set league advisor for HBO's Perry Mason the first season, and they were like.

Well, what we do here? I'm like, I don't know. The show's set in nineteen eighteen, Like there.

Was no utter little like man over there, you know, like and then, but I did not watch a ton of law shows because I could not stand how inaccurate they are.

And then I got jury duty and I was like, we are doing that right, but we have to worth, you know, for the purpose of storytelling.

But we had to do so much of it right because we had the guy who didn't know it was fake, so you know, but that was like terrifying, like every day worried that my witnesses were just going to break on the stand and be like I forgot what I was supposed to say, you know, so literally.

You know, like, let's hope this goes well, you know, but yeah, it's like, okay, well, I guess you have to do it.

You know, right now I can watch them because I have empathy for their their plight.

Right exactly. Okay, so the Unborn tell everyone when where they can listen, and is there going to be episodes? So after you have you said there's seven, are you going to do another then series of another story?

I mean, if we find one, we would love to, you know, like we were talking about make this into something narrative, either a TV series or a film.

Or TV movie.

Obviously if we there's another idea that I have for a podcast that relates to the client that I had all those years ago.

He just got out of jail. But I do think I would be open to it.

But I would also even be open to going another like if Christy wanted to tell her side of the story.

Or if during the course of this if more people come out.

Because I I'm so glad that it's entertaining, but I also want the whole picture too, you know. So yeah, but yeah, So The Unborn is out now. It's on iHeart Radio and wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Pandora, Amazon, et cetera. But it comes out every Tuesday. Right now, the first three episodes are out, so if you haven't you can binge those and then every Tuesday for the next four weeks until we finished seven.

I love it. Well, Thank you so much for coming on. Good luck with everything, and wait to watch one of your shows.

Thank you so much for having me. Great to meet you.

Thanks for coming girl you Tube.

Okay, bye bye bye bye