A Real Go-Giver

of mine. Yeah, yeah, I like to fill everyone I would. So, you know, Caden's at basketball practice last night, and I've gone through all my emails, gone through all the social media, and I'm like, you know what, I haven't looked at I haven't looked hit any of the comments minus umber of them on Instagram about the podcast, which I'm sure everyone knows, like this is very out of my comfort zone. Like you know, I'm not. This isn't the easiest thing for me. Okay, I'm just gonna put that out there

because I'm just curious. So I go look, and you know, I'm reading through all the good and bad of all of it. I'm like, Catherine has to go. And then like another one that's I don't know, one about me being judgmental or something, um, and then another one that was like I'm sure in real life you're not, but like you're her yes person on the podcast, and I'm like what, but you know, anyway, it was bad. I shouldn't have done it. So then last night, I was

like in a funk. I was like, these people don't like me, right, it sucks. That sucks. I don't know how you do it, Like I know, sucks, like you don't get it though until it's like actually about like you, I know, I see it for you. But then it's like dank. So I text her last night I was like, don't yeah, don't do that. You're right, like this is it was terrible. Well it's some Are you upset? Okay,

I'm not crying. It's amazing. What how someone can say something and just like yeah, I'm because I want to read things. It's like full on funk mode because it sucks, because can you wantally defend yourself to the people that say bad things? Oh, I went to see if you could reply. You can't reply. Reply, just make sure you apply with not your name. I do sometimes reply on the Instagram comments like if they have a question or

it's something like all hearted or whatever. And one of them was on the Instagram comments like the yes person, Oh, I was so close, but I didn't. I didn't say anything. I just backed off. It's fine. I have a question like would you say something like would you ever leave a review. Have you left a review? I've left good reviews. You're not a bad reviewer. I'm not a bad reviewer.

Could you leave a review about a person? No? Yeah, Like I'm even thinking like old nanny's or babysitters or old you know, teachers or old like I'm just trying to think of like I would never or even like I would never go to Like I don't think who's like a celebrity that I would go on. I would never leave a night like it would be like you need to stop whining, whining, or you need to stop oh my god, get over it. It's like who are you? Yeah, like you, who are you to say anything? Who am

I to say? Like, I don't know what now? Again, if you have an issue, what do you listen? Exactly? Like its like some of them just in general, were like you know, one star or whatever, and it's like I've been listening from the beginning and I'm on, I'm like, don't listen. Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know, but I'm sorry. I want to say I'm sorry to you

for what well, because it sucks. It sucks, you know, and I mean again, mine was like three things and I was like, Oh, don't ever look at that again, you know, like, but that just sucks. It sucks that people think they have the right. And I understand it's a review, so I'm one hand. I understand you have every right to give a bad review if you want.

But when people start attacking your character and you know, stop the win or whatever they're saying, like, it's just it's just to be hurtful in my opinion, and I just I don't like it. It It feels aky I do at all. I don't think I could do it. I think the only way I could do it is if I was like helping a business or something, and I still would have a hard time doing that, but if it was like your business was really being run into the ground or something, and I felt like I was helping,

But no, not not a person. That's like my new favorite word thousand twenty two. It feels it I think I got it from you? Yeah, yeah, you know, I've said it a lot, and then you're sure to do say did I get it from her? Did she get it from me? I think that's first time I've said it. But it does. It feels itchy because it's it's like I mean, it's hurtful and it's and I know, you know, we the Kardashians put themselves out there, we have put them ourselves up. We people put in it's for criticism.

At the same time, you got to criticize, like you you can maybe question why I've done certain things or why you know, hey, Catherine, like do all. It's like, but how people it's the way that people respond, I think is what It's icky. Yeah, how they respond, And I don't love that, Like excuse will you put yourself

out there? I mean I understand it to an extent, but at the same time, like everyone's still human and it still hurts people, and it's still at the end of the day, people are hiding behind their computers and they're bullying, and I just don't I don't like it. That's like we had this thing happened. So there was this woman who I just happened to. Someone had screenshot at me and saying, hey, your neighbor is talking crap

about you. And I'm like, I immediately got read because I'm like, my neighbors are my friends, Like you know, like what what? So I look and it was on the news and there was this girl being like, yeah, I live in Jana's neighborhood, and you know, her boyfriend moved in, and like it's just really sad what she's doing to the kids. And I'm like, first of all, I never moved in, hasn't moved in. Yes, he's here a lot, but like, no, he has not moved in. Third,

fourth million, like who who? Like why are you going? And that I wasn't even bad, like it was just but again like people just putting out like misinformation. And then they were all just like talking about like my judgment as a mom, and I'm like, you don't go after my mom ng like you're not going to judge how I am as a mom and what I do for my kids every single day. So I have this chain with Pamela and like all my o G moms in the neighborhood, like Jenny and Molly and and I

was like, who is this mom? Because there's been some new neighbors that moved in, and they are like we'll be at your door in five minutes, five minutes with stakes and fire, like we will march down there and go. We don't talk about people in this neighborhood because there's other people that there's a football players or whatever. It's like, we don't do that, And I don't want to have to feel like I have to be like careful of what I do so that they're not running to like

a news or whatever. So long story short, pamelin the detective of all detectives and like you're really good. But like Pam goes into like this is this is her second cousin, like you know what I mean? Like yeah, within like five minutes, she finds out she's not her neighbor, she's um, she lives, you know, down the street like five miles. Her son is in the same classroom as Jolie. So I'm like he did, So I'm we get her son's whatever find out and I'm like what do I do?

Like do I and Jolie was about to have a birthday party? I'm like, do I invite the mother to the birthday party? And then just on her way out in the gift bag like put the screenshot of what I know her thing is on the news? Trust me. And so then I'm friends with Julie's teacher, So I texted her and I was like, hey, gave me the low down on like this kid's mom because like this is you know, she talked some like smack on whatever, and she was like, oh yeah, you know, like like

invite me to the party. I want to see it all go down or whatever. And so I was just like what do I do. I'm like or, and Pamela's like here's her number. I'm like or. I just call her and just be like hey, like I know what you said. You don't know me and you're not my neighbor, so stop trying to say like you know anything. So I called her because I was like I really wanted to like do little like the birthday party thinking but I'm like I'm too much of a freaking baby, and

I don't like confrontation. But but it would have been like kind of classic that savage right there, super savage. But I was like, I can't do it. I can't can't, can't, can't do it. Well it would have been fun, though, um, And so I end up calling her, goes to voicemail, and then I text her and I was just like, hello, this is Janet Kramer, Jolie's mom. Um, this is the information that I have. And I was like, don't have claim to be my neighbor because you don't live in

my neighborhood. You're not my neighbor. You have no idea if my boyfriend moved in, which he hasn't. I don't have to explain that to you, But like, why do you why did you feel like even need to go on a social magazine or whatever and just start making like statements and then question my motherhood about those those poor kids. My kids are fine. I'm a great mom, and you don't need to worry about my poor kids. Like,

good for you. So I was just like, and I wanted to be like, and he's not invited to the birthday party? Was he was? He invited? No? Because I heard he said he's a troublemaker in class. He was already he was already trout with I'm like, well, doesn't follow too far from the tree. They just do that for attention. I wouldn't do that though. It's a thing like I'm not I wouldn't listen to attention. Thing saying that she was in your neighborhood was to get to

be incredible. It was the kid comment that those poor kids. I'm very sensitive to my kids about being a parent, like do not And then spread false information. No kids are off limits, man, they're off limits. You cannot miss with people's kids. So anyways, that happened. How did she respond? I'm so sorry. You're absolutely right. That was really wrong

in me. Good for her, yeah, I mean at least she owned it, thank god, because if not getting gone wrong, I mean, she was smart enough banked with this going down. I mean, you know, but um, so that was interesting. And then I have a question for you to I'm not going to say the person's name, but it says it's a girl that I've talked to on Instagram. She's

recently gone through a divorce. She's in the public eye, and I don't know why it bothers me, but we were dem ng and I basically said something to her like I'm really sorry for what you're going through, you know, And we've we've dammed, we've text sometimes. I was like, I'm really sorry for what you're going through, you know, if you need anything, like I'm here for you or whatever.

And then um, and then she's like, oh you too, Like I see that you're in a new relationship, Like I'm really happy, furious, like thanks, girls, like you know, it's just you never know, but like, yeah, I'm definitely like in a good spot right now. And she's like, well, at least your ex was a lot harder, hotter than my ex. At least you're ex it was a lot hotter than my ex and I and I can pull

up the message. But I was like, I stopped in my tracks and I was like, well, I would never ever call her ex husband hot, whether he was hot or not. I wouldn't do that. So for some reason it really bothered me because I was like, I mean, I'm just gonna pull up the message. I don't understand the point, and maybe this cat and you please don't

be married. Okay. Then we started talking about okay, so I just pulled the d M. Then we started talking about She mentioned a story about her ex hating her, and I was like, oh, girl, don't worry, Like you know, my ex hates me too, but really they hate themselves literally what I said, because he does. Do you think he's a narcissist? This person, my ex makes my life living hell every day. Blah blah blah blah blahah uh. My ex says I ruined his life to um blah

blah blah blah blah blah blah. How the heck do they hate you know? Does he hate me or whatever? Um blah blah blah. It's like he's a man. At least your ex is hot. Mine looks like a clown shows. At least your ex is hot. And for some reason, I'm just like, sorry, that's gonna bother me. I would never say your exs hot, especially knowing how much you hurt you anyways, have a great day. I don't know why it bothers me. I would never say, like, least your ex was hot, Like, I don't want to talk

about how hot my ex was. So I think you are thinking two completely different things, okay, talking me through that. I think she is literally just trying to make a point that like hers is not and as a clown, I think she's thinking more about herself and you're thinking about yourself. You don't want to hear that your ex is hot. I don't want you guys be like, oh, your ex is hot. I'm like, I don't want to hear that. Yeah, none of us would say that to you.

But I don't think that was her point. I don't think that was like a bad intention personally. I think her point was more than like like she had a hot one a month's left. I mean, I think it was just more about yeah, but you just don't want to keep that's something you don't want to hear. But she wouldn't know that. I was just like your face. I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I don't think that it was the intention. How did she

handle you responding that way? Oh? Sorry, I was just trying to make light of it, and I'm like, I just don't want to I don't even want to mention that he was yeah, because I don't think he's hot at all. Anyways, Um, we're gonna take a break and then we're gonna get John and An a man coming out. You can pre order The Go Give Marriage on Amazon today. I'm really excited to get them on. Talk about the go Giver. Um, so break, get on John and Anna.

Hello there, Hi, Well, thank you so much for coming on. Wine down. Um, I'm Jamma. This is Catherine. Um. Okay, so you had the go giver and now it's the go Giver marriage. So what was how did you transition from first of all, what is the go giver? Give me? The give me the definition so I can be a go Giver. Okay, lowdown on the Go Giver. So The Go Giver is a book that came out in two thousand eight. That's going on and the first rough, very draft rolled off my desktop printer in two thousand five,

so we're coming up on twenty years um. The premise of The Go Giver. It's a modern parable and it's built as a business book, so it's aimed at the business world, entrepreneurs and so on. And the premise of The Go Giver is what we call the Pindar principle. It says, the more you give, the more you have. It just means in business, if you operate with a function, with with a with a focus on the other person, with the idea of how can I add value to

this person, how can I serve this person? How can I make their life better in the next few minutes, rather than what can I get from this? Right that it's not only a nice thing, but it's actually advantageous. It's it's pragmatic. I mean, your life improves, not just there, it helps everybody. So the book did really well. It's sold over a million copies. That kind of struck a chord and people loved it in the business world, but people kept writing to us and saying, when are you

going to do a go giver book about relationships? Um? And that's how my wife got involved, because that's her world, honest, this is her career. Her whole adult life has been about couples and helping enrich people's lives and helping them live more satisfying lives. So because you are in them a therapist, I'm a therapist. I've been a marriage therapist as well as an individual therapist, mostly for adults. Um.

And that's been my lifelong career pretty much. UM, some stints in business, and and I have a consulting practice as well. Um. But yeah, I care deeply about the details of what hold people back from succeeding in marriage. And a lot of times it's the emotional baggage that we all bring from our childhood. It gets in the way of us being able to operate and function in a marriage in a way where all those old issues don't keep rising up and getting in the way of

true intimacy. So the go giver marriage, what is like, how do you then transition from the go giver to the go giver marriage? So what are the things that like to be to be a go giver in in a marriage. You know. The subtitle of the book is The Five Secrets to Lasting Love and it's based on five components that are based on developmental theory, and developmental theory basically says that whatever you need it as an infant and as a child, you still need as an adult.

And so each secret is based on core elements of things that you needed as a child that you still very much need now. What happens is that people get so busy with their lives, chasing their careers, being Instagram influencers, you know, going after you know, lots and lots of you know, prizes if you will, uh, in the in the adult world, that they kind of lose track of giving to their spouse these things. So, you know, the

like the go giver. The basic premises that whenever you give to your spouse, you're adding value to their life, but it also reverberates back to you and the value comes back to you as well in you deeper intimacy, closer relationship, better bond, that kind of thing. So what are those things that you know your your child self needs now as an adult. Uh, Well, one of them. One of my favorite of the secrets is just appreciation.

And it's just the idea that the most important thing that we all need as children and as adults is to be seen, heard, understood, and deeply witnessed. And that's something that people want, they really want it. I mean, if you're going to be in an intimate relationship, you don't want this person to just love you. You want them to get you at a very deep level. You

want them to understand you. You want them to almost be able to read your mind and feel feel you when you're just your anxiety is rising or you're just feeling like you're going to fall apart after a long week at the office whatever. Um. So, it really is one of those things that being appreciated such a small gesture, but it's a gesture of acknowledgement of you as a person and it and we we we stress that it

needs to be something sincere and authentic. I mean, it's great when somebody walks by you in the kitchen it says, babe, you're looking great in those genes today. You know, these are compliments and they're lovely. But when we're talking about appreciation, we're talking about that moment where your spouse stops you and says you are the most wonderful person. Your friends are so lucky to have you. You're a really good friend.

And when I watch you with other people, I'm just astonished at the way you listen and just what a good friend you are, what a giver you are, And then you're kind of taken back, going, well, thanks, you know, I mean, it's one of those moments. And basically we teach people to do it two or three times a day, and then up it four times a day, five times a day. You know, no one can get enough appreciation. Um. You know, it's kind of like I like of it

to the way people. You know, you can either pray a prayer of praise and thanksgiving, or you can pray a prayer of gimme, gimme, gimme what have you given me today? And this is kind of the same. You know. It's like when you're giving to your spouse, when you're letting your partner know the little ways that he or she is constantly nourishing your spirit and and the ways that you feel loved and taken care of, and the ways that you see them as a person. Um, it's

really powerful. And that's that's one John. Is there something for you that you struggle with? Um, one of the secrets, like in your relationship? Really hey, because I know, like I remember, I don't know if you guys read the book Love and Respect, but I remember reading that with my then my now acts. But you know, it's like women want to be loved, men want to be respected,

And is it is there? Um? Is there a piece for you in one of the your secrets and the go giver where it's like it's just maybe it's harder for men in general, but might be also hard and just harder to do um in your marriage. I think you know, one of the things that has really struck us in this is the power of believing in another

person and and letting them know that. It's like appreciation that Anna was saying, it's fine to appreciate the other person, but she's talking about putting it in words, actually saying it, because we often forget to do that. We kind of assume, yeah, she knows that I appreciate her. It's like that with this like core belief in the other person, it's easy to let it go to just kind of assume it but Anna has done this with me, for we've been

together for twenty five years now. We both came out of prior marriages, so we both like to say, you know, had emerged from the smoking ruins of houses that have burned down around us. And I think that I have a lot of self confidence as a as a as a as a professional, as a person in the world, but in terms of my interior self, in terms of me as a human being. UM, I never realized how much self doubt I have. And you talk about respect,

but this is about self respect. And On has been there for me in the way that a really good parent will be. And I don't mean she parentifies, but she's been there believing in me, believing in me, believing in me. I'll give you an example. I just published my first novel last year, and even thank you. Even though I've published dozens of books, they've all been nonfiction. Anna used to say to me, you would write great novels, you'd be a great novelist. And I would say, oh, why,

thank you. I appreciate that vote of confidence. Translation, yeah, I don't think. I don't I don't believe a word you're saying. But I appreciate that you're saying it. But she kept saying it, and she wasn't obnoxious about it. She just kept feeding me that she kept saying. And you know, she talked about about developmental theory. Anna taught me the phrase primary narcissism, which is what a baby has. It's when they're first forming their identity. And you, as

a parent might say, look at you. You read that whole book by yourself. You're amazing, and a kid just thrives on that. Right, we all have that infant still inside us, right, We're all still that child beneath the sophistication. So she would say, you're gonna be a great knowledge. Now we'd go, oh, that's just such a nice feeling, but I don't believe it yet yet. Yet after twenty years, I finally believed it. And you published my first novel and just up for a barrier word and it's it's

done really well. And that would not have happened without her building me up so simple. But we just forget to do it. Yeah, that's beautiful. Is because you guys have both come from past relationships. Um, I mean, I'm almost a year divorced. I'm now in a new relationship. But you know I often think back and go okay, like, well, you know, obviously I see things that I could have

done differently in my last marriage. UM. Now in this new relationship, it's like, how do you almost let because I think I'm so afraid of my past relationship creeping in and the possibility of like, oh my god, what if what if he cheats? I mean like Max did

and what if? You know that, It's just like I'm almost taking away what how great like my relationship could be today with a new person because I'm so afraid of like what the past can creep into my you know, two now wondering if I want to speak I want to speak to that if I may please UM. You know, both John and I not only came out of long term marriages that didn't make it, but there were kids involved,

and we both married for life. You know, we were the like you get married, just stay married kind of people and you know, the the embers were still burning when we got together. In terms of both of us had a lot of self confidence issues. I think you have to give yourself space. I think that UM, allow yourself as many years and as much time as it takes because if that person isn't willing to wait until you're really comfortable, they're not the right person for you anyways.

And it's perfectly legitimate to have those feelings of I'm scared what if he cheats on me? You know what if this happens, What if my trust gets broken again? I don't think I can handle it well? Then wait, because the handwriting is always on the wall. If you wait a few years, and I tell people all the time, couples that I'm coaching or individuals that i'm coaching, you know, the red flags will go down on the field if

you wait long enough. And so if you're still in the dating phase of your relationships, stay there until it's so black and white to you that you know it's the right move. Because people reveal themselves over time. It could be that moment when you're really hurting and he doesn't listen, Or it could be that moment when you know you're sharing some really deep intimate thing and he changes the topic to talk about the game, or you know, I mean, it's like it's so subtle sometimes, but women

are very relational. That's why you know. Women have women friends. Men have men friends. And I don't deny either one as very relational. But women, they get really deep and intimate around relationship. They want to be able to share at a very deep, very core level. And we often joke about how like men are men are labradors and women are cats, you know, and labradors like they just want to run with the bone and do a good job where my bone. But yeah, exactly, but you know,

women are looking for that. You know, it's the same when intimacy weekends. Men are like, you know, I'm turned on, let's go. Women are like, could we talk first? You know, can we have a glass of wine? You know, can we warm up a little? You know, they there's a little bit of a time lapse there for women to sort of let down, let their guard down, get relaxed, and get comfortable. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's

just that we're different in our makeup. And so I really feel like waiting and giving it, giving yourself that all the space you could possibly need is the way that that you get to find out you know, where you where you stand. And I had a personal note on that. I just want to add to that that

you know, this is this is our story. Because when we first got together, we when we first fell in love, we felt madly and I mean we had we were friends first, we were business colleagues and friends and um, we had the greatest conversations and they went on for hours, and we can talk about anything. I was like, who is this dazzling creature that can talk about anything for hours? And we just went on and on and on. Once we fell in love and realized that I was a goner,

I was just so done. It's like, we have to get married. And I wanted to get married right then, and and I was very serious. I told a friend of mine, if I don't get married, I'll die. That was how it felt like, I just have to do it. I'm sorry, there's just there's no note to this. And Anna, it was who said, yeah, I think we need a little time, which was very diplomatic of her. What she really meant was I think you need a little time. Because I did. Oh, yeah, you did too, Okay, we'll

be looking. I did. I did because I didn't understand what happened with the first marriage. I didn't even quite understand myself. I mean I didn't know it. And after a few years of just dating. I realized that deep inside somewhere, I was terrified that as much as I adored this creature, that if we got married, that one would blow up too. And I got to a point where I was thinking, you know, we're getting along really well,

maybe that's like all there is. Um. We did it for ten years and you know, and then when we actually got married, it was just so black and white. And in fact, his daughter we had we had kids. You know, that was part of the complicate teenage kids. Honest daughter went to her one day and said, and the story is actually in the in the Gora marriage in the book in another character. But her daughter came to her and said, Mom, I think you should marry John.

And honestly, do you do? Why? Why do you think that he makes you happy? I mean, when your kids are coming and saying, guys, guys, tie the knot, then it's it's a it's a pretty good sign. But I'm really so grateful that we didn't jump in the beginning because I had some sorting out to do. But do you think you could have done that? That's a thing.

Could you do that sorting out when you're in a relation, Because I feel like when you're in a marriage, it's like they're still sorting out always to be done, you can for sure, but it's it's more complicated. But sweetheart, you're going to say something on that, Well, I agree with John, it's more complicated because once you're in the intimacy of you've locked the door, so to speak, you've gotten married. Um. Some people really experience that sense of

like what have I done? Um the minute the marriage goes down. And also the intimacy deepens in the sense that people, you know, the baggage that each of us bring to the relationship unpacks, and it unpacks on its own.

The part of you that has control issues or that you know is expecting sex more than the other one, you know, all of a sudden that starts to play out, and little little spats and little irritations appear, and it can be harder for you to both have the compassion to say, I'm still healing this wound that happened to me five years ago, and I need I need to be able to heal that. I need to feel like that's fully fully managed. Um. And usually when there's a

trust broken, there's a deeper trust broken underneath it. If you go back into your childhood. Sometimes there's something there that also really hurt that kind of you know, one feeds the other and makes the wound a little deeper

than it should be. It's not that you can't heal while you're together in a marriage, but both of you have to be really really willing to either bring in a third party counselor to help you talk through things, or to have real rules for not letting fierce fights break out in a way that are destructive and or where you're in a shouting match where neither one is getting hurt. So I've been married for fourteen years, and you know, we got married young, So you get married young.

I didn't have this advice when I was twenty three years old. You know, deal with your childhood wounds before you get married, you know. So you're in a marriage that I am in therapy dealing with my childhood wounds and trying to kind of maneuver that in a marriage fourteen years later. I mean there's been you know, bumps on the road for years, but just really finally realizing

it is from so many childhood wounds. So like what I mean you kind of touched on that, but it's it's it's a hard thing to figure out because it's like we've grown so much, we're different people, you know, do things change, you know, where our needs different when we were younger than they are now, or it sounds like they're the same, like he said, you know when we're children. Yeah, they're not. They're not deeper, they're not different.

But it really also depends on your spouse and whether or not he can really embrace the part of you that's healing and and sometimes that takes having those really intimate conversations where you're letting him know that you realize you've got stuff too that you're working on, and you don't want it to hurt him, and you don't want it to ride all over him. At the same time, you want him to give you, um some space to work on it and for it to be okay that

it exists. Because I I had anxiety my first marriage. I I grew up with a family member who was made me nervous all the time. I'll just put it that way without getting too deep into it. UM I had a parent who was depressed and they got very irritable at times, and we're sometimes very verbal about their irritability, and I was constantly watching them. I was nervous and so and then I ended up with my firstborn child

had special needs. And I'll tell you a kid with special needs, you're nervous all the time because you're just watching them like a hawk to make sure they don't have another seizure or that something bad isn't about to happen. Yeah, we both have children with special needs, so that those are really stressful on a marriage. So what I'm what I'm driving at though, is that my anxiety wrote all over the marriage. I mean, it was there all the

time and it drove him nuts. But his way of dealing with it was to say things like cut it out, it's not that big a deal. That's like dismissing. Yeah, it's dismissing your feelings completely. And so you really need that opportunity for your husband to really understand that these

wounds aren't just surface. These wounds are deep. They had an impact on you, and that you're trying to be I'm not sure if your mother, but you're trying to be the best mother and the best wife spouse you can be, and that you want to make sure that your wounds don't hurt him or don't impact the relationship, but you also want him to understand that you need his compassion in his space, and if that can get really established, there's a great deal of room for healing.

And kudos to you for being in therapy, because old wounds, you know, they really really deserve in a compassionate therapist who's really good, who can just be there for you. Yeah. I mean, I think that's definitely kind of where we're at. He is kind of giving me the space to just kind of and I'm the one with the intimacy issues, like I have a hard time being vulnerable, I have, you know, all of those and he's really given me the space to just kind of try and go figure

that out. And you know, and I have three kids, and you know, you said about your anxiety terrifies me because I can be kind of that as a mom. And I'm like, what if I you know, like what if this affects my kids? You know, I mean it's so much you know, thinking about trying to fix yourself but also not messing up your kids at the same time. Is trust yourself as a mother. I just want to say this to you because the sincerety of who you are is coming straight through that microphone, loud and clear.

You're not going to screw up your kids. Your kids love you deeper than you could even imagine. And you are not doing what was done to you. Yeah, and you're making sure and the fierceness. I gotta tell you, a fierce mother is way better than an ambivalent mother. In a heartbeat, yeah, I hear that. No force, no force in the universe more powerful than a fierce mama. That's right, exactly, for sure, we'll get I sued the public school system for a placement that costs twenty four

thousand dollars a year and one in fifteen minutes. Oh wow. Yeah, I walked into walked into that meeting with a lawyer and said, I'm going straight to the state level. You cannot provide for my child. This is what she needs. It's an outside placement, and I expect busting Mike drop. Yeah, I mean, you got it. You know, there's nothing more powerful than a woman on purpose. So don't don't don't.

Just trust yourself. That's my greatest greatest advice. I'm sure a therapist is you know, behind the behind the you know, we have the same therapist. I gave her my therapist and she's she's she's an amazing But it's funny because our therapist is very therapy. You know, she's follows, she's there. She's like, I cannot confirm nor deny that like that that you have my best friend. I know, I know,

but we just exchanged appointment, so I know that you know. Um, but I am curious so too, because a lot of people, UM ask me this question, and you know, I know, I have people that wrestle with it, like when do

you know, like it's to walk away? Like I knew my walk away moment, but like when what do you tell couples and that might not even have like I mean, you know, I don't know, maybe in the all situation with you in your act, I mean you with you in your husband where it's like there's not inity, there's not this, there's not that, but it's like it's just

you guys. It's like, do you do you continue to you know, be a go giver in the marriage or is it just like like when the when when maybe there's love loss and it's like it's you don't know how to get that back. It's like because that that feels like exhausting too. And it's like I know with my ax, like just trying and trying and trying. And finally it's like people like when did you know enough

was enough? Because I have so many people that reach out there like I'm just miserable, and it's like and I always say, like, well, try therapy, try things, and but it's like, what is y'all's advice for you know? When to go the opposite way of being a go giver? I guess in the in the in our book the five Secrets there Lasting Love, the first four secrets are really all about being generous with your with your partner.

The fifth secret is about being generous with yourself. And I just want to say about your you know that it is absolutely being a go giver when it's when when it's time to take care of yourself. Say it this way. Being a go giver is not contradicting, doesn't contradict being a go giver to yourself, giving to yourself what you need, taking care of yourself. If you don't take care of yourself, then you're no good to anybody else anyhow. So it's it's it's part and parcel of

this whole cycle of giving. UM. And the only other thing I'll say is that UM, when I sat down with the therapist, with my with my my former wife, UM, when I realized we were we were in serious trouble. I went to the local university and I got the head of this echology department and said, I want the best therapist in this in the city. So we got him. We sat down with him, fantastic guy. And his first appointment, he said, I want you to know that I'm an

expert at putting marriages back together. However, if we determine that there's we're at the point of no return, I am also an expert at taking marriages apart. I like this guy because he doesn't have a horse in this race. He's here for us. When we reached the point where it was clear that we needed to put to to take the marriage apart, was when it was clear that we weren't both on the page of being allowing to

the other person of some give and take. There was there was There was no given, no take in in the negotiation. It's like word a brick wall. But here I turned it over to my more erudite partner and wife. Well, I'll tell you. One of the secrets in our book addresses all issues of codependence, and codependence is is really in a nutshell somebody telling you and or acting out in their behavior, telling you that you are either too

much or not enough. You know. And when somebody is constantly telling you, you know, I love you, but I'd love you more if you lost thirty five pounds because I'm really not attracted to you the way you are, It's like bingo. You know this is not okay. Um, Now that's not a reason to just shut the door and end it. But I'll tell you the things that

I think are really serious red flags. And I'm a great believer in couples therapy where where the both members of the couple are willing to get in for a year and I mean a year of get down and get dirty. Because guys come with as many childhood wounds as women in a heartbeat, often more guys are brutalized by their fathers at times when their kids, and they become this tough guy because everyone tells them not to

be a sissy. But what what you see walking around in America and you see it in guys that have sex addiction, pornography addiction, they have working out at the gym too much addiction, they have computer addictions, they have all kinds of addictions because they don't feel good enough as they are exactly success addiction. And they have terrible childhood wounds. And it's called covert depression. And if you want to read a phenomenal book on it, I'll recommend

one that's not ours. It's called I Don't want to Talk About It by Terrence Really okay, talk about it? And yeah, I don't want to talk about It's a brilliant title. And he's a brilliant therapist and um and I've studied with him. A lot of other therapists around the country have studied with him, and they're a therapists all over the country that teach and work with his methods.

He will get right in the middle of your marriage and he will figure out who is casting the most stuff on the wall immediately and basically dig right into

their childhood and find the elements that are hurting. I've seen him take grown men who are totally arrogant and totally narcissistic and totally brutes with their family, with their kids, with their wife, and I've seen them level them two tears and open up the can opener of deep, deep abuse and depression from their childhood, and all of a sudden, the father starts awakening to the fact that he's the problem and all in the whole marriage starts to shift.

But it's a year long process. You know, you've got to get in and you've got to be willing to stay there. If people are willing to do that kind of work, Um, there's great hope for their marriage. I don't care what they've been through. However, if you're being hit or physically abused by someone, these are not generally people that are going to wake up to their wounds or try to work on anything, because if they were trying to work on things, they wouldn't be hitting you.

They'd be punching a wall instead. Um. But the minute the abuse is aimed at you, you really want to get to get to women and people around you and find a way to get yourself, even get your kids, because you don't want your kids witnessing that. You do not want your children, um, viewing that kind of stuff. You know, Alcoholism is a tough one. If people aren't

willing to get on the wagon. I've seen terrible things go down in families where one or the other of the marriage partners is drinking to excess and getting really arrogant and aggressive, and you know, you see terrible behavior. And if they are not willing to get on the wagon and get into a twelve step program and do the things that they need to get clean off of drugs and alcohol, then it's time to walk. You know. It's like, you have to take care of you, and

that is the fifth secret. The fifth secret is about growing yourself, making and recognizing that in any good marriage, the marriage itself is not going to feed you. You have to feed you. You have to bring your best self to the marriage, and so does your spouse. So it's it's really about growing yourself and that is about self respect. So you know, when the time is there, get with the therapist. It will take them less in a session for you to know it's time to move out.

That's really good advice. Although my little red flag meter came up and well because so my ex had a sex addiction, which is one of the reasons why you know, I tried for six years to try to you know, work there. We have two kids, and I tried everything until the pattern just kept repeating and you know, had

to eventually throw in the towel. Unfortunately. Um yea, you know, so in this you know, new early relationship, I'm definitely, um, I have a lot of issues again now knowing a lot, I mean because I've done a lot of work too. I know a lot of it is childhood related and trust and worth and enoughness and all that stuff, you know. And then, uh, but something that you said, I was like, oh my god, he works out all the time my

new boyfriend. Like I mean literally he's in the gym and he's an X and he's a Navy seal um so you know, Navy seal crossfitter. But then I'm like, oh, no, Like is it because so now that he works out every day, you know for a couple hours, like, does he have a problem because And I'm like like, is this like you know, and I know that he has

his you know, especially from what he does. It's like he has this identity where you know, it's him not being you know, overseas anymore and losing kind of his identity. But it's like, I guess I'm just so worried about something that will then repeat the pattern of the past again. So now that just freaked me out. So if we can help calm that or what I was something I could say to him or like, and I would say, that's your next topic with your therapist, just to talk

about the anxiety that that drove in you. Because it doesn't mean you know, John's one of John's best friends is a Navy seal. He's written like eight books with him, a novel for example, well the novels, the novel they wrote together as well. Um, so just because he's a Navy seal and he's got that macho exterior and he likes to work out, doesn't mean that that's an addiction. And yes, most you know Brandon and other Navy seals, I know they go to the gym every day. It

doesn't mean that they're depressed or that they have an addiction. Um, you have to really measure it around what what's going on in the rest of his life and how is he doing and also you know, how able is he to sort of let down his guard and be vulnerable

with you. Oh yeah, I know, We've we've had some really good talks, like he's shared emotions and I mean, I know he deals has some identity stuff that he's working on, but being able to acknowledge it is like I'm like, Okay, he's at least wanting to he can see it, he can acknowledge it, he can you know, express emotion. Um. But yeah, now that just like that's heartwarming to hear. I mean, just that that little bit that you just said. I've dealt with a lot of seals.

In the process of working writing all these books with with my my buddy Brandon, I've gotten to know the seal community really, really well. Talk with a lot of families and and siblings and parents and partners. And there seems to be two kinds of Special Ops guys. There's the spec Ops guys who get out of the service and make the leap to civilian life and find meaning in civilian life. And there's a lot of guys who

can't quite make the leap. And you know, they're kind of like like the guys sitting in the living rooms who were trying to relive their high school or the college years. Is saying, you know, the rest of life is downhill. And when when somebody can't make that leap to civilian life, and to finding a new meaning in a new career, in a new path. That it's very very tough to get, you know, to get through that wall.

But if it's if it's a guy who's you know, who's come out of that world and now he's in this world and he's he's opening up to you and seeing things that he has to be working with and sharing films, that's that's phenomenal because there's no one as deep as a specups guy, and these guys often have really tremendous depth of thinking and character and intellectual capacity and they were not just macho fighting g I Joe's

um is my experience anyhow. Yeah, Yeah, they have to have brilliant intelligence just to make it, because the stuff they have to do once they're out in the field, I mean it's really high level. I mean yeah, they have to make calculations on a on a moment's notice that are very very high functioning. So yeah, they're they tend to be a cut above in terms of their intelligence. Yeah, so I would you know, I would also just question, you know, it, does his he ever considered therapy because

you know, he goes to my therapies place too. Okay, Yeah, because I just my therapists out to people. Theist he doesn't see in my therapist. He sees that he my therapist. Like, we can't do that, So I'm smart. That's that's good boundaries on her part. So she's a great she's a great therapist. Yeah, really important. Even the I can no longer I cannot say or deny, you know, it's good boundaries. Yeah. You know. I told her one day that we're just gonna all show up, like all you know, three of

my best friends, that I'll have her. So we're still just going to show up and just make her life outward I uncomfortable. Love to make uncomfortable. Um. Well yeah, okay, this is this is good. It's all good. This is a very good information. Um. I could feel like I could talk to you guys like forever. I love all the insight. Um, but we can. We can pre order um the book now and then when does it actually come out March eight? This is so exciting, you guys.

We've never written a book together before I published. This is our first one together, and it's also the first time we've ever like going on the road and on a promotional tour like this together. So this is just we're having a blast. This is like the sixth secret. No no, no, no. Me and my ex wrote off together.

We wrote a book with a New York Times bestseller and to the a couple of chapters were not very honest from him and come to find out, yep, and then yeah, and then we got divorced very soon after. Um when it came out, and I was like, Wow, the good fight. But I'm doing the good fight by myself now. I'm like, so, you guys are gonna do great though. You guys, you guys got way more experienced, way more years. You seem like a good guy. And

the Five Secrets, the Five Secrets. The thing about the Five Secrets is that they're really designed to be something that you can employ in minutes a day. And so if you dissect each secret and really understand it in the second half of the book, the first half is

the parable. The second half of the book is called the Practice and and basically it's the half that I wrote that goes in depth into each secret and what it means, why it's there, and also what it's opposite is the opposite of appreciation is criticism, and criticism will kill a marriage. I mean, kill it dead as a doornail.

And so if criticism is just a constant and your brain gets in a loop, you know, if you're criticizing constantly, you're looking for things to criticism, you know, to criticize, which what is that? Because it's like I've I've I know, I've done that and I even caught myself like doing it, just being saying in my relationship now. But it's like it's just an It's it's looking inside of us that right, it's something that they're actually doing. It's more of like

my unsatisfaction with myself and what I'm doing right. It's also and I just want to bring it back to the things that you said about childhood wounds. I find that for myself as a woman, and I see it in a lot of women that I that I work with. UM Control is one of our big issues. We want to control the universe, and in trying to control the universe, we're trying to make everybody do things the way we think they should be done. And that's where the criticism

sneaks in. It's like, you know, Han, I really would like it if you could just hang that that that towel up in the kitchen. It doesn't deserve to just lay on the on the counter, you know. I mean, it's like it's such a stupid thing to comment on, but it's that little niggly like, you know, let me pick apart until everything's done the way I like it. I like the kitchen floor always swept every night after dinner. You know, it's like, is that my issue or is it John's in my issue? It's by issue, so I

don't ever bring it to him. I just want it swept, so I do it, you know. But it's it's like, you know, there's just all these ways I think that, especially if we have wounds from our childhood where we had any parents who were unreliable, and we all had parents or early boyfriends or people who were just totally unreliable. Your ex was unreliable, you know, a whole different, negative, not true scenario was going down while you were living with him, and you know that is enough to just

take your trust and implode it. So be gentle with yourself and recognize that, yes, the opposite of appreciation is control, but you can switch the loop to appreciation and and and not from criticism and control so when you can take it and start appreciating him multiple times a day, you're going to find that he warms up in the whole tone of the relationship changes and your brain will get accustomed to the positive not the negative one. It

really is a habit. Well, I'm getting this book. I know it's his marriage, but to me, it's the go giver relationship because I think it's important, you know, in a relationship with you know, friendships, with marriages, with partnerships. So um, I'm so excited to read your book. I'm so happy for you guys. Congratulations on joining forces and and what you guys love and do. And just thank you for bringing your knowledge and um, your insight to to our podcast. I really appreciate it, and thank you

so much. I just want to say, I'm just going to say that we've just found out why your why your show is so popular. I mean, this has just been a lovely conversation. Thank you so much. I really appreciate, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Gus, appreciate you have a good one. Thank you here, Okay, bye O. So sweet. I love them. I feel like I've just gone through therapy again. Yeah, you're good. I'm good. I'm good.

I'm so proud of you though, I'm so freaking proud of you, Like you're just like you're emoting emotion and you're feeling so emotional this week. But I'm so it's proud of you. Thank you. I appreciate it, like really like you're working through it because I know it's probably like it's like some of it just like confusion because you're like, why am I emotional? I don't know. I'm almost like yeah, I mean I definitely like everything she said and everything. I mean it makes sense like I've

got to work through childhood traumas. I get it. But yeah, it's confusing, Yeah, especially when I'm not used to being vulnerable. So I'm like, why am I? Why am I crying? You know? So? Yeah, that was good. I really I really enjoyed them. I'm excited about the book too. Um, very excited. What do people wanting? Well, I asked people. Yeah, the last we got like two minutes. Everything is about Ian. Where is he and why is he? And around like does he live with you? Um? Are you married? And

do you have children? Oh? Um? When can we expect a new single new follower? It just came out. It's called the story. Um, okay, this is a good one. How do you find your passions? And feeling stuck in life and I don't know what I love? I think that's a really good one. I think a lot of people probably feel that way. What do you do because I have? Yeah, I struggle with that. I mean, I think it's hard because, first of all, I think for me,

work is a passion. But I feel like a lot of people don't work in their passion, you know what I mean. They're not passionate about their work. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But then outside of that, that's tough. It's like always say I need to get a hobby. That's what I need. I need a hobby because my passion is my kids and like and working. I love. I love what we do. Then it's like, I think my thing is where I'm struggling is like, what's my identity? Yeah, that's a tough one.

I can't even go down the loop. We only got two minutes. That's another time, another story, an easier question. Um, advice and going through a breakup. You'll be fine in a few months. Just you've become you become all your friends, You'll be fine'll be fine. The light in the tunnel, you'll see it. No, you're you broke up for a reason and find out like you're gonna get You're gonna learn so much about yourself, and then you'll realize why

you broke up. What's your favorite color? What's your color? I don't know that truckoise? Do same? Or were you just telling me mine? No? That's mine? Okay, I'm mine too. I've heard. How do I deal with the tantrums? I scream really loud outside for the oh, not in front of the Why haven't you signed a record label because nobody wants me? Stop? Um? Okay, one last question. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. Stop. There's so many. How's it going with your boyfriend? Do you want more children?

Have you met like this? Are all the same? Are you okay? You seem sad? You know? Are you okay? I'm good? Good, I'm okay, I'm okay. All right, we're done, We're gone. Um. I love you guys, See you next week. See you