Jen: Bridging the Divide

my brother, who is one of my best friends. This year, he married this amazing person, Amanda, and she happens to be from a white role working class background, and that brought a whole new community into my life. Amanda has three siblings, one of them whose experiences I'd like to share with you today is her older sister Jen Jen and I started talking about what it was like from

her perspective when Amanda and Francisco started dating. I'm is happy because you could see that it was important, because she had the little bounce on her step and she'd light up over just having a conversation. And then what did you think of my brother when he finally met him in person? Well, I had already known a little bit because you know, I'm a snoop and so I'll look on Facebook stuff. He's so wonderful. But he's also like you know, he's Francisco, so he shows up sometimes

with like a button up like floral. I love his swag and the way he dresses. I love it. He's such a good conversationalist. You guys all talk and conversations go in detailed and I like that. So right away I feel like I hit it off with him because I want to hear more. We learn from each other, Yeah, which is awesome because this podcast for me is that I love having conversations with people, and I think there's

so much to learn from each other. The way we can be generous in storytelling, right, so many things come out when you have a good conversation. You have to open yourself up and be prepared to just listen to what somebody else has to say. And he's very good at that, and he can talk to almost anyone, I think, and that's a great skill to have for some people to do that. Yeah, he's really brilliant at that. I've always admired him for it. Also, he writes the best

birthday cards. Really, Yeah, they're my favorite. How nice that? Yeah, he's so sweet And like I loved meeting Amanda too. Amanda was great for my brother. Similarly, there was more of just an ease and a fun about him and just like an openness that came with him meeting Amanda. He isn't that's so great? Right? You wouldn't have thought the two of them would have hit it off or even known each other except for the Internet stuff. You know, they would have never met each other any other way.

And they're both up for anything, and I love that, you know, they really are, and whatever you need, sure, let's do it, or let's go here, let's play this game, or you know, hang out. It was really interesting to see how our families came together. We mostly grew up in the Midwest. They mostly grew up on the East Coast. They're from a rural area. We're from mostly cities or small towns. I grew up with two cultures, three languages, and I traveled a lot, and Jenna spent most of

her life in one town. It's interesting to me that my brother chose someone who is actually in like working class white America. I remember initially being a little nervous because unfortunately, while I am very much like a champion working class people, we get to be around a lot of like minded people. Ultimately, so getting to become a part of a family where I was like, oh, there might be incredibly different perspectives than me. What does that

look like? And who are these people? The white girl working class is so often depicted in the mainstream media as just Trump supporters, but we actually don't hear a lot of diverse opinions from this group. And honestly, there's different layers of this community in our country, and oftentimes those layers are invisible. And I wanted to talk to Jen because she's from this community and to get to

know her on a deeper level. She's felt invisible in her life in different ways through the isolating experience of grief as a single mom, struggling at times to fit in with her community and even within her family and relationships at times. You guys, are witnessing one of, if not the first, most in depth conversation she and I have had. So it's getting up close and personal with a new member of my family, and I am incredibly thankful for Gen's ability to open up to me throughout

this conversation and sharing her experiences. Welcome to When You're Invisible. My name is Maria fernand but I know not everyone can. Well there are, so it's also fine to call me Maria. In today's world, we love to tell stories about people who have reached the top, like people who have achieved positions of cloud wealth power. On this show, I won't be doing that. When You're Invisible is my love letter to the working class and others who are seemingly invisible

in our society. I helped to build a community here that will inspire you to have generous conversations with others that are different from you, conversations that might help you see life in an entirely different way. How is your day? It was a good busy day. I work at a school. What do you do at the school now? I am the superintendent secretary of an elementary pre k to eight school. It's a small district, so I work right in the main office. Oh my gosh, what's an everyday like? Well,

I'm right there at arrival and dismissal. I have to know what buses come in, make sure all the kids get to their classes on time. So as you grew up your secretary to a superintendent now and you worked for the housing authority. What else it like, have you done. I'm always curious what people have done for work, if that informs how you live the rest of your hours without a job, or like the mentality you walk in with.

I have always thought of myself as a dreamer. I have tons of ideas careers or businesses, just not for me, for other people. To me, college was never really an option. I did well in school, but I never really was pushed that way. So I graduated high school and got a job where my mom worked at a factory and they worked there for a while. What kind of factory it was? Clement Pappus and then Red Packet was like

a tomato processing factory. My mom didn't payroll in the office there, and I got a job in the distribution area, just office work. I've already done office work. Yeah. Do you feel like part of the reason you weren't pushed towards college was the time? Yeah? Because I graduated in high school in eighty nine, So yes, I knew people that were going to college, but it wasn't made like it wasn't necessary. And then in the nineties, people had children and they're like, yeah, no way, Jose, my kids

are going to college. You do need that time to grow up. You know. There's all different ways to learn things. You have to decide if you want to learn no more be stuck in your own ways. I was up for whatever, you know. If I felt like I could do it and I understood what it was, then I would try. I worked at a pumpkin patch too, but I quit that and like that, and I worked for two years at a trash company in the office. What do you feel like is the biggest thing you've learned

from all your experiences. I don't know. Um, I think everyone needs to you know, not preaching. We all need a little more patients with each other, with ourselves. I really enjoyed listening to Jen talk about different experiences that helped shape who she is today. And I particularly enjoyed hearing about what it's like to grow up in rural America because it's so different from what I've experienced, so it was brand new. I feel like I had a

really good upbringing. I grew up in Cedarville. There was very few people here and not a lot to do. Obviously, no public transportation, and you had to walk everywhere. It was very rural. But as soon as I had children, that's exactly where I wanted to raise them. You know, I knew that it felt right me. We went outside, We used our imagination, and my parents were very good

if they did a lot with us. You know, we went camping into the beach all the time, and we have a huge family and there was always something going on. They kept us very busy. They made us work very hard. When you said that you guys had to work hard, did you do chores in the homework, or did you also have a job while you're growing up that kind of thing. We did chores, and we didn't have a farm, but we had five acres and my dad wanted to

be a farmer. We kind of sat on a back road, so everybody dropped their dogs back then, in like the seventies and eighties, if a dog got pregnant or somebody moved. They didn't treat animals the way people mostly do now. So our house ended up being the homeless shelter for all these strange animals. At one time, Maria, we had nineteen dogs, not in the house, they were all out side, but we fed them all bathed on. We had more than a hundred chickens we had to take care of,

and gardens. I wouldn't even call a garden because, oh my goodness, it was hundreds of feet long and many rows. And so we did it ourselves. What did you guys grow? We grew everything in corn, tomatoes and radishes and pumpkins, and then my mom would freeze it. We had a lot of geese, and then I had a pony, which

was nice. The pony. Actually, it's a funny story. It was the summertime and I had to babysit my brothers, and so I would get up earlier than them, and I went out to feed the cats outside and do my animal stuff, and something's making a noise over in the little field next to the house, and I look over and there's a pony tied to the tree. Apparently the pony was from like a mile or so away and had broken out of their fence. But the pony was so bad that they didn't go looking for it.

What child's dream isn't to have a pony? Like the minute you said that, I was like, what, Yeah, it was especially fun for the first day. One time it broke out of the little pasture area we had for it and broke other horses out of their fenced in areas. I had to leave school to go and take back two horses and the pony to our house. Jen eventually returns to Cedarville with her kids, but they actually move to another town in those early years of raising her family.

I moved to Shamok and p i for ten years, very small town. What do you feel like is the biggest difference between the two. That's just different cultures from South Jersey and farming to the mountains in Pennsylvania and coal mining. You know, different history is what shows what your culture is, what things are normal. Can you describe some of the differences between Shimokin and where you grew up. One of the biggest things to me is how they

raised their children. Those children were allowed that they could very young walk the little town by themselves, and I could never understand that that was the biggest thing. It's a little different pace, it's a little slower, and there was not as much opportunity. There's no employment there. You would have to go to Harrisburg, which was an hour away. I've never been to Cedarville so I haven't gotten to experience Jen and her family and Amanda in their home base.

But I did get to spend the fourth of July with them two years ago, and it was really lovely. It was the first time I met any of them. It was also the first time we went wedding dress shopping for Amanda. It was fun to watch them all be super supportive and be like, you look so beautiful in all of it, and it reminds me a lot of my family. It was really cool to see we both did this. We're a little more uggy because Latinos like hug and kiss everybody, but they were still super warm.

It's cool to be like, we come from two very different cultures. I'm like, whoa, that's so cool to me. I'm like that blending. It's fantastic that all of our families seemed to mesh well and everyone was very open to getting to know each other a little bit and different things. And that's what we're supposed to do. It to be honest as humans, you know, like as people were supposed to give each other that little bit of respect and understanding and then teach me, show me what

you do. I mean, I went to Mexico once when I was a kid, but I've never really had I mean, I had a friend for a long time we passed away, and she was Puerto Rican. But it's completely different because it's a different country. Yes, it's very different, and and like that's what I think is like really beautiful to also see because we all get stereotyped sometimes and we're different, and it's like, oh yeah, we can be seen as that. Just because I was raised a certain way or you

were raised a certain way. It doesn't mean that either one of us are correct. I'm not better than You're just different. Mm hmmm. So how did your parents grew up? My dad grew up in Williamstown and my mom grew up in southern Ohio. Like her family were hillbillies. I have a picture of her grandfather in a rocking chair in front of the cabin with no grass in the yard, any of like fourteen kids in this little cabin. So they were very hillbilly, very southern where Ohio meets into Kentucky.

One thing that separates Jen from her family is that she's the first person to date outside her race. And that was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to Jen in the first place, because Jen did experience pushback for that. Her mom especially struggled to accept the fact that her daughter had married a black man. I married this man and my mom did not come to my wedding or talked to me for like, Yeah, how did that feel? Did you have a conversation around it

before that happened? Did you guys have a fight And when was the moment you found out your mom was like that? Oh, I knew that before I started dating him. I knew that when I was in elementary school. I was friends with Tyrone. We were just friends seventh and eighth grade and he called and I was on the phone with him, and she came over and she took that phone out of my hand and she hung it up and she said, you will not talk to him. And my dad got mad, you know, he was like, yes,

you will. That was a battle between them. Like my dad and his family, they never talked about people like that. My dad did not allow the N word at all around him, did not allow it. Do you feel like that was something that happened in your community where you grew up, where the N word would be used? Yeah? Oh god, yea, And people will still talk to me today because I'm white that they think I feel the same as they do, you know. And the first thing I want to do is, hey, do you see my kids? Yeah?

Which right, what is it like as a white woman who does get some of that? And you're like, no, my kids are biracial, and like, oh, they're surprised. I was the same as my dad. I never allowed any of that. And it didn't matter what it was. You don't say those derogatory words. Kids here things. They want to know what they mean. We don't treat anybody different, anybody that ever came over. Those kids get the same

exact thing you do. And I think it's part of it is My parents got divorced when I was fifteen, fourteen, maybe even younger than that. Said that it was two separate households, so like she ran her ship the one way he did. And then I moved out when I was seventeen anyway, and I went and lived my dad. So I had already was on the fence with her. She was mad about that way before. I didn't get married until he was twenty, not like it was, but it was like a couple of years down the road.

But yeah, she didn't know. She didn't like it, but eventually when I had Sam, she changed. Jen had two kids with her first husband, Sam, who was her oldest daughter, and c J, who's her middle child. Did having grandkids change her perspective? It did? Do you feel like there's remnants of it. It's taken her a long time to understand, but she has changed and she'll even stand up against other people now you know that say things and she'll say I was wrong. So she is a lot better.

So it did take all of that. See, she could have been small minded forever and lost out on opportunities to spend her life around her family. People do those things, and you know it takes a lot. What do you feel like? Makes people feel like they have to feel better than another group of people? People want to feel special, yea, They want to feel more than so sometimes making other

people feel bad makes them feel better. Or maybe is it fear of someone encroaching on something they have They feel like they're going to lose it because someone else is there or I don't know what it is because it comes into all kinds of things, race, religion, financial background, ethnicity, all different things. Hearing that story about Jen's mom changing is good to hear, and yet it is complicated to hear.

To me, it's crazy how it can take another human being, like who is it already your own daughter to like change your reality and your perspective. That it took her being a grandmother, that it took her seeing like a brand new baby being born into the world to start to change her for perspective. But at the same time, I'm grateful for it, because there are people out there who would never change and choose not to change at all,

and much less even say anything about that change. Like I also believe strongly in the ability to admit the mistake, like when you are able to literally say out loud, I used to be this way and I was wrong.

I also have much more respect for working class people who choose to change and choose to open and choose to be more willing, because, like I do believe, when you are afforded more opportunity, when you are afforded more privileged, when you are afforded more traveling, and you still maintain a closed mind perspective, or you still choose not to do the research, that's a different kind of ignorance, and that is to me a more malicious kind of ignorance.

It seems like some of Jen's family has clearly had to work through and grappl with some important social issues, and it seems like they're open to change. So thinking about this, I was curious as to how all this translates in how they vote and how they talk about politics outright? Were you guys like a political family? Was politics part of your life? We always voted. I always knew that it was something I had to do. My grandma wanted to see my vote sticker every year. Did

you vote? Where's your sticker? That's so interesting? Yeah, and it was weird. I always knew that it was something I had to do, you know, and if, oh my god, I didn't vote, oh my gosh, you have to vote. It was a big deal. And I'm also from a time when my mom had me. She was not allowed to have a checking account. You know, she had no credit card, no checking account. It was everything was in my dad's name. And I don't feel that old people don't realized that it wasn't. I mean, I guess fifty

years is a lot, but to me, it's not. She wasn't somebody that we didn't go out and protest things, but you made sure that you had knowledge on what was going on, and you voted what you felt was the right way for everything, not just for president. No one really talked about who you voted for. We didn't have big political conversations. Do you guys talk about it now or now? We do, especially since two thousand sixteen. Right, of course, I feel it for everyone. Oh my gosh,

did it ever? So we do talk about it now, but it's also in your face more, it's everywhere. How do those conversations go over pretty civil or do you feel like it gets heated? I have one brother and sister in law that it could get heated, so I didn't try to avoid it a little bit because there's been some hurt feelings, and these are also things that they're gonna have to figure out on their own. But we don't dwell on those things, because the funny thing is we mostly all agree on a lot of things

how to treat people. So then I don't understand how you can writewards that one side, you know, but movement eventually it'll just level out a little bit, it Right, That's definitely a hope I like to talk about the stuff that's going on. But I do try to stay with the people that are like minded. I don't want

to have heated conversation. One of the biggest reasons is because I don't know enough to have a good conversation and to be I could have a conversation and just say how I feel about something, but I definitely can't stand on a soapbox and defend something, which is so important to say out loud, I think because I think sometimes people get stuck or they believe, oh, I'm supposed to stand on the soapbox and say everything, or like I feel insecure, so I'm gonna do it rather than

be like I think most of us don't know. You have to know what you're talking about if you're going to stand up for something. If I were to do that, and then I would make sure that I researched and I understood what was going on and the best I could. But don't stand there and act like you know, because normal, regular everyday people that don't study this stuff and really spend time analyzing it. We don't know all that stuff.

We don't know what's all going on. You know, you'll only have to try to do the best you can. It is hard to vote and you don't know enough, but I try to go with people that are at least calling. Stay tuned for more from one Year Invisible. After this break, welcome back to one Year Invisible. I started a family when I was twenty one. I was married to my first husband for ten years. Jen met her first husband when she was nineteen while they were

both working at a local factory. Some of the things that caught her eye was his nice smile and his love of reading and travel, which are two of her favorite things. He was a smooth talker and impressed her with a lot of attention and new experiences. Eventually, the two of them and their kids moved to Pennsylvania, where she was away from the rest of her family. During these first crucial years of her young adult life, some really difficult things happened that she was isolated and often

alienated for as a result. I went through a lot of stuff with him. My first husband went to prison. Wasn't something I did. I didn't have anything to do with it. While I was married to him, living in Shimokin, which like I said, was a very small town, I worked at the housing Authority. He actually was a construction manager for a pretty good company. He had a decent job. He just had drug issues. He went to jail. He did not go to jail for drugs. He went to

jail for rate. Wow. I had to sit through that. I had to listen to that. I had children to raise in that town, and I chose to stay there for another six years after he went to jail. It was very hard. There was articles in the newspaper. Everyone knew what was going on. And that was a town where if you wrote a bad check that went in

a newspaper. Every story was a story. So how do I raise my children because that's not the life that I was brought up in, or wanted to raise my children in, or even thought that I was getting involved in. I had to figure out what was important to me and try to get up every day and put in as much effort as I can, and if I have a bad day, then I have to again be patient with myself. And I think that really changed my views

on things. I'm in awe because one as a person who loved someone and who thought of someone in a certain way, and you're like, holy sh it, that's not who you are or now there's this new thing. Having to deal with that, and then also having to be a mother and being like, how do I explain it to you? Do you feel like you figured out how to explain it to them? No, it was very difficult. Sam was six and c J was four. No, maybe younger than the three and five. No, it was always

very difficult. They both attended a program Headstart for three year old. Great program, but teachers actually came to your house once every other week, and you, as the parent, would plan an activity for the teacher and the children. And we lived at the time on the top of a mountain, so one of the things we would do is go out and do berry hunting and we'd come

back and make muffins or a pie. Well, I had the teachers say I'm not coming to your house because of what was going on, and he was not in the home. I understand that. I never argued with her or it took it out, but I had to explain that because we had planned and that was such a letdown, you know, and they were young. I think about how women and children often become collateral damage and tough situation.

We talked about this generalized community. Yet it's truly just a group of people, and we as individuals can change the course of that community, and as a result, changed the course of individuals lives. And I think to me, Jen and the kids could have used more support than they got. You don't know how much stays with them and then questioning things. And then I took them to see him in prison, which was it a mistake? I

don't know. I divorced him. They knew that, you know, he was okay with that, But I still took them every other month because he was also right there. The state prison was right in the same five miles, not even and his nurse was my daughter's best friend's mother, you know, the nurse in prison. It was tough, you know. But I could have ran away, I could have came home. I don't know if what I did was right or wrong, but I wanted to be strong. I wanted to show my kids that I can do this on my own,

we can do this together. How is your family during that difficult time. Do you feel like you got the support you needed? I did. My mom and my dad and all my brothers did something to help me. At some point or another. I let the pipes freeze in the house and at one time what was accident. It was the mountains. It was cold. I didn't realize that they would freeze, and so my uncle and my dad and my brother had to come up and crawl under

the house and fix it. I would meet my mom with the kids and we would go and do different things, little day trips and stuff. Yeah, I had support and they wanted me to do what I wanted to do. And nobody had any real money though school clothes. Everybody would pitch in and help a little bit if needed. But you have to figure this stuff out on your own too. It was a very difficult time. And you know that I lost my son se J and he had gotten on drugs. Again. I don't know what it

was that went into all this. As Jen talks about this incredibly tragic experience of losing her child, she is scrappling and going back and forth between the experiences that led to that moment, and often as contemplating as I'm sure many parents do, the idea of what could have done different. Because then he got out of jail and c J was eight and I spent two years just he was a problem, and then I moved the kids here to New Jersey, and so then I was just

the meanest person in the world at that time. CJ was in sixth grade and Sam was an eighth So I don't know what was right or wrong, what would have made a difference. Both of them had great memories of other things because I worked really hard to make sure that we had also so many fun times. Yes, we worked, but they ended up having great friends and it was families that got to know us and didn't judge by what was going on. Yeah, which is a huge testament of character, it is, And so that's what

I wanted them to see. I thought, in the end, we can run and hide from this, or we can just accept it because it's not going to be the only bad thing that happens in our lives. I think that's a really important lesson to learn, because life happens and you sometimes have you know, like no control control, and like was it good or bad? It just is? It just is. That's what I decided, and that's what I tried to do when they tried to stick with it,

you know, um, until I couldn't anymore. Right, right, So, if it's not something you want to talk about or anything like that it's totally okay here that losing a child is one of the hardest things you have to go through as a parent. What brings you comfort? How have you worked through or wrestled through or lived with that grief? Lived with is a good way to explain it to me, and I do believe everyone is. It's personal.

It's your own thoughts, you get in your own head, so you have to figure out how you are going to live with it. Because personally, I have not done enough for myself with that. So I dwell on things and I shouldn't. I need to go figure that out. I haven't taken the time for myself, and I think it's really important if people do. It is definitely something

that you don't wish on anyone. But there are so many people that have lost their children, and you know, the drug epidemic in this country is awful, and nobody wants to really talk about it, and no matter what anybody says, there are no real answers or support. There's are people that are trying it. To me, there's not enough being done. And it's not just for myself, it's for so many people. We just had another kid that Sam went to school with her brother just died the

other day, and these kids are now thirty. But it's not only that, even if you lose a child to other things, for cancer or car accidents and unthinkable horrible things. I definitely think that you can't do it on your own. I don't practice when I preach. It's been hard for Jen to reach out to her wider community and professionals

to help her with her grief. And my excuses that I live very rural and there's not a lot of options there are now online and I need to take the time for that self care and figure that out myself. But it's a very personal thing that people go through and blame myself for so many things. So that's things that I have to work through. When you become a parent, you feel responsible for everything. I do have my days where I get very emotion chanel, and eventually I'll get

myself the help that I so desperately need. You live life and you put feelings sometimes and thoughts on the back burner to make it through each day. Yeah. Yeah, And while you say it's an excuse, I think it's also very real. If you're in a rural area, if you like in person support like it is harder, and it is hard hard than like then want to reach out to like an online version of that and to find that. And I love what you said about being patient with yourself and that's okay it is to be

in the process of it. Please know, like if there's anything we can do as a family, Like I love getting to know you guys, and I love being a part of the family. I appreciate how Jen is willing to look at these gray areas of life and these questions we all carry in some version, and they don't often get talked about. So I'm grateful for Jen being

open to sharing these thoughts. We've added for this episode a link to resources in the show description, so please check that out if you need them or would like to take a look. And please feel free to pause, do whatever you need to take care of yourself, and we'll be back after this break. Welcome back to When You're Invisible? When do you feel most seen? And when do you feel invisible? Oh? Boy, well seen by who? I don't think I feel most seen ever. To be honest,

I don't really think so. Maybe I don't try to be seen either. Maybe I try to be in the background invisible is when, and I think it's a lot of people get caught up in their own self and you don't matter anymore. You are nothing, and that's how you get spoken to. Sometimes I don't need to be catered to, but I want to be spoken to with respect the same that I am giving to you. And there's so many people that don't understand that that it's

important the way that we speak to each other. It also creates a culture creaty who you are when you take that second and realize that somebody else is having a really bad day too, And in the end, if you knew what was going on with them, you probably would change your attitude. But why do you need to know? Why does it have to be something bad? Yeah, something

doesn't have to be wrong to treat a person. Well, why can't we just say I appreciate the things that you're doing for me, and this is what I need. I'm a secretary to school, so I get yelled at my parents all the time who act like their needs are more important than the person next to them. First of all, you're letting your children see you act this way, so that tells them that this is the way they should act. I just think if we take a breath and you say that person is just as worthy as

I am. Who do you see as your community personally? First my family, that's my community, and then it is my neighbors. My community is Cedarville, the school that I work at, I am a big part of that. I try to attend things outside of school that are community based. I try to help the food banks in the town. So I always think about different groups that are looking for things and they need volunteers, and I try to put those people together. So to me, that my community.

To me, it's like crazy. To Jan you were like, I don't have interesting stories like this all time. I'm like, wait, tell me more. Yeah, you don't think about that for yourself, I guess. And I'm very thankful that I've lived. I mean, I've definitely had some experiences in my life and some amazing ones too. Like we got into more emotional ones. What are some fun ones just to balance it out. Oh, when I was eighteen, we went on an amazing four

week camping trip to Wyoming and back. It was amazing. Yeah, And we had a van and a pop up camper from Jersey to Wyoming and camped every night. That must have been stunning. Maybe one day I'll get to do something like that myself. I never did that with my kids. I took them camping by myself a couple of times. I was proud and impressed myself. What's something that's exciting or sparking your fun or curiosity right now? It'll be

simple for some people. I want to be a grandmother, a grammy to the dog, she's my grand baby, but I want to be a grandmother. Other than that, I still feel young minded. I don't feel fifty one, so I feel like I got lots to do still, I'm not done yet, But in most of all, I'm would

be most excited to have grandchildren. Talking to Jen reminds me how there's so many different ways that people are perceived, and if you are not close to them physically, culturally, or familiarly, there's a lot that we don't get to learn about. I feel like Jen's interview truly surprised me. There were a lot of assumptions that I think I walked into the door with because of what I had heard through mainstream media, and in many ways I was

also able to relate to her. One being like the first woman in my Latino family to day outside of my race, and so what it's like to navigate that with your family who had as their own history, their own bias, their own culture, and when you're kind of

one of the first to change it. Thinking about all of what she's been through, one thing that really stayed with me is her perspective of not judging people and being kind and patient with people because the moment she said it, I heard it in my mom's voice, because my mom says that all the time too. Despite our differences and there's a lot of them, right, we also do share some really important things. So thank you for

joining us on this journey. In this episode. Next week's episode, we get to take a look at another part of my family. My parents are going to close out this season of When You're Invisible, and we'd get to talk about their life as immigrants in the US and now dual citizens and what it's like to have ties to different countries and raised children in different cultures. Thank you so much for listening to When You're Invisible. Don't forget

to like, comment, and subscribe. You can find this episode and future ones on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host and creator Maria with executive producers Anna Stump, Nikki Etour and Bans producer Dylan Hoyer, with associate producer Claudia Martha Corena and post production producer Daisy James. Original theme music by Tony Bruno. When You're Invisible is an I Heart podcast Network production in partnership with my Cola Podcast Network