Living Between Worlds: The Untold Challenges of Being Black in White Spaces

Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. I'm Chris King. I wanna welcome you to the When All Hell Breaks Loose podcast, where we are here to

I am great, Chris. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here today.

Are you nervous?

A little bit. Yeah. Scared? A little scared.

You don't know what I'm a say?

I don't know what you're gonna say. Yeah.

And I

have a feeling you're gonna switch it up on me. Yeah.

I am. I gave her some notes, but you know what? I always fly off the cuff. But, hey, we'll we'll we'll be good. Marnia is a pro. She is great, and I want her to introduce herself briefly. Just tell us we're gonna be talking about transition today.

Mhmm.

And, Marnia, we've had some conversations, and transition is your middle name. I call you a transition specialist. Yes, sir. So just briefly talk about some of the ways that you have gone through transition and what that has looked like for you.

Transition started day 1 for me. Born to, a mom who was engaged but not married, living with another generation of people, at 3 months of age, and, then matriculating at 3 years of age when my grandmother purchased her home, growing up primarily with her, in a small town in Southwestern Virginia in Martinsville. And, you know, having more education than social skills, being around more white kids and black kids per se, a grandmother who was extremely protective, but a lot of white parents who came along and literally claimed me as their own and guided me, onto the University of Virginia, onto New York, and then a crash course to Los Angeles where my mom was paralyzed at the age of 49 from metastatic breast cancer. So I shifted from New York to LA. She died 5 months later.

yeah. Transition. Transition. Transition. And I the I talked to Marni and I said, you know, there's a theme. When I talk to people, I like to hear a theme. Yeah. What's the theme of your life? And I I immediately said, there's a theme here of transition. So I want us to really talk about transition, but transition from a sense of transitioning up.

Just like

You know, just about 2. Right? I transitioned to Des Moines, Iowa, and that was different in of itself. But what I went up there with was a certain type of mentality that was passed on to me from black world.

Right.

And so I had to transition into that space and try to learn how to be successful. And that in of itself was chaotic. It was a culture shock and everything in between. But you're saying that you grew up in a different type of environment. Right. So help me understand. Let's unpack that a little bit. Sure. So I'm I'm looking at you, Marnie.

Right.

Alright? You know, you got your Beyonce hair blowing in the wind. Okay. Alright. Yeah. Alright. Stop. You got Beyonce hair blowing.

I love my peroxide. Yes. I do. Yeah.

But when you you you look like you're you're black. You look like me.

I am black. Right? I am black. I'm through and through. I know my history. I love my people. The diaspora of my folks.

Okay.

But it was a way my my grandmother was in her sixties when I was born. She had been a nanny for a wealthy Jewish on Long Island. So by the time I came along, she and her elder sister and her husband, I'm the baby there with them on a small farm in Southwestern Virginia, and I I liken it unto, like, a Montessori school almost growing up. And it's funny. They rude me differently than they did their own kids.

Mhmm.

And that was a transition for me. Black sororities and fraternities. I had a counselor at my high school who wanted me to attend an HBCU, and I'm like, they would have killed me there. Like, I I wouldn't have even known what to do. I mean, I love them, you know, all praises to them, but that just wasn't the thing for me.

Wow. So I'm thinking about my experience and there were certain rules that I grew up with. Right? Growing up in black world, there were rules. My mother was from Mississippi. My mother and father, they're from Mississippi and my father lives on the land that the it was the family land.

You

know? And, you can still go back. And it was a it was a plantation. So historically, it was a plantation. He bought a lot of land there, but there were rules that I was given. Number 1, it was, you know, it it was basically rules that about competition. So I played basketball in college and everything was about competition. It was about don't let those white boys beat you. Right? Everything the interaction between black and white was really about competition.

My god.

You know? But not bring her lighter at home. Yeah. And I used to tell my mom, mama, you will never catch me. Yeah. You won't catch me. Yeah. But, you know, you'll never catch me. Right? But but that was the rule. So there were rules that I was given. And then as I'm transitioning, there's some things that I'm thinking about, and that's in the back of my mind. And it's it's I'm not I'm not sure if at that time it hindered

Mhmm.

Or if I was just at that time, just really just being defiant Yeah. Just for the sake of being defiant. But it may have hindered how I showed up in the rooms that I was now being accustomed to and being invited in. But with you, you grew up where people were taking you in Yeah. And helping you. So help me understand some of the rules that you were and the beliefs that you were building along the way and how later on that was challenged.

I was one of the first kids, I'd say, in my community where I was with a grandparent at that time. So a lot of the black kids who had, you know, 2 parents, it was like I was kind of I felt like I was an outcast to them. And on top of it, my grandmother was very strict. She wouldn't let me sleep over at anyone's home. It was only always with family or school activities.

You know what?

He was called to the principal's office.

I can attest that that's probably true.

All I was to that part. Okay. And all I was told was I can't take you to prom. And I didn't know the answer to why up until our 10th year high school reunion when I happened to come back for a funeral to town. And I just I just bought an extra dress just in case I happened to go to the reunion.

Wow. So it's it's funny because as we're talking about transitioning Mhmm. I think about as we transition and we're talking about our experiences as we furthered our education.

Right.

Right? And in community in various communities, definitely in my community, you know, I'm not my I'm not the 1st generation college graduate, but I know many people that are. I even know many people that are first generation high school graduates. And so as you move up and you transition and you're growing and you're bettering yourself, you start to find doors opening to you. And there are moments where you have to adjust.

Yeah.

So I wanted a different experience. And being invited into certain rooms afforded me that experience, but I felt like I had to act a different way.

Yeah.

You know, you you hear the word code switch. And code switching, for those that don't know, I'll tell you if you're if you're white and you got black friends, they don't really talk like that. Right? They, you know, they they they code switch. Right?

Initially, it was really challenging. Our one memory, came to mind. I was, a beta club inductee in the 8th grade. And I had the clothes like the white kids, and, you know, the polos, and the wrap skirts, and espadrilles, and all the things. But when we had the reception afterwards in the library, there was nobody there apparent to represent me.

You gotta speak for all

things black. God. Yeah.

All things black.

And then I thought some of my friends saw me inside, so now I'm, you know, the turncoat. I'm like, but y'all didn't let me I didn't get the memo, you know. I didn't know this was happening. So it there there have been some interesting situations and I think I've gotten through it in just being a human first, and just being a a person who could communicate. Yeah.

a journey. So you were that black I was a black nerd. You were black on the outside.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Alright. I mean, so now with that though Mhmm. Given how you grew up, tell me about what your experience is like with black folks, because you grew up different. Right?

Well, I had older black people always around me who like the first black pharmacist in our town. His widow lived at the end of our street. The black physics teacher lived at the end of our street. All the black people on my street were entrepreneurs. He owned his own paint company, owned his own service station.

Right.

So again, it was generational and not so much racial, but it it I just fell somewhere in the gap, somewhere in the middle. Yeah. And nobody else who, you know, had a mom that was not there. Right.

But yet

she was in a bigger city and she sent me back beautiful clothes and books. Literally at 7, I had a reader's digest, Ebony, Essence, and, Jet Magazine subscription in my name. And those came to the house, and I read those. So it was just it was just a whole different world that was set up for me.

Wow. We have to actually explore another topic later. Just remind me, because what you were exposed to to was different. I was exposed to Jet 2

Okay. For page 42.

Page 1, 2.

I'm sorry. Does Lamont Macklemore mean anything to you?

No. It didn't mean nothing to me. It just I

was the photographer for the Jet Beauties, everybody.

I just knew Detroit. I knew Houston. Dallas has some great Jet Beauty. Oh, and DC has some great Jet Beauty of the Weeks. It was the Beauty of the Week for me, so I'm just I'm just saying. But, I digress.

Yeah.

But but but but with that being said, there's that element of you you know who you are, but in society, you don't fit in on one side and you don't fit in on the other. Right? It's like you're not white enough over here Yeah. And you're not black enough over here, especially from a generational standpoint because you were exposed to something that was different from people your age at that time. Right?

for me. So may if I may ask you a question. So in that case, what did you do? Like, how did you, like, play that off or manipulate it?

You know, y'all are real good about throwing questions to me when I'm supposed to be interviewing y'all, but, you know, I will let you I will let you ask me that.

I appreciate that.

You know, I didn't woah. I had some it took me some time.

Okay.

Right? I had some slip up moments. Right? Do share. Okay. Now, a slip up moment in the culture, like when you are in the midst of, you know, your white counterparts and you are a black brother and you slip up, that's called a nigga moment. Okay? So that's what that was. So I he he I'll just share I'll share one. I was in a meeting.

Okay.

Only well, actually it was 2 brothers. My my my buddy Rodney, he's still he's still kicking. He's a good brother. He was next to me and they were going through a project and task that they had assigned. And they said, Chris, you were supposed to do x y z. You know, what's the status? I said, yeah. I've been and done that. And Rodney looked at me. He he kicked me under the table. He was like, what'd you say?

Evonics.

I said and I and I repeated it again. I was loud. I said, I've been done done that. And everybody looked at me like all the white people was like, what the hell did he just say? And Rodney was hitting me. He was like, boy, if you fix fix it. And I was just frozen. So I had one of those moments, and I at that point, I was like, you know what? This is exhausting. Yeah.

Right.

We're transitioning up as I say. And one of the things that I had to realize, to answer your question, is I had to realize that if I'm invited in the room, I deserve to be there.

There you go. Yep.

That's the first thing. If you are invited, don't let anybody make you feel like you don't deserve to be there. You you're supposed to be there. Right. And so you're not invited because you act like somebody else. You're invited because of who you are. Be true to that. Stick to that. That's why I love this person. I'm not y'all might trip on me.

Yeah. I think placating the room, not sharing who you really are, is it a safe place, are they gonna understand me, are they gonna judge me? I mean all all those things. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Time and again. Yeah. And I think even growing up because my situation was so different, Yeah. I was in the midst of, you know, my white friends but there were things I couldn't talk about because I had parents at home. Right. And, you know, it was like something that was so foreign to them. So, yeah, there were there were a lot of lonely moments. Yeah.

You know, one of the things I had to adjust is I naturally thought all white people were racist.

Yeah. No.

And you didn't grow up like that. No. Right? You grew up the opposite.

Mhmm.

But in our conversation you told me about times where you had that shock to where Yeah. You had to experience it.

Yeah.

Right? What was that like?

It it sent shock waves through my system. I, there was one, a stationary company that I had worked for, and I rose to greet them as they came in because we did retail in addition to printed product. And I was welcoming the women as they came in. And as soon as I saw their face, I knew. I was like, here we go.

There you go.

Are you effing kidding? Are you effing kidding me? And I I was just, you know, I'm the same me. It was the ire of it all. You know, but it took a minute because I had to just sit for the rest of the day because anybody else who walked in, it's like, then you're skittish.

Yeah.

Because I'm the same me, but but it's them. They didn't know as a cousin explained to me, she's like, Marnia, they didn't know what box to put you in because you wouldn't fit into the angry black woman box because you weren't angry. You are black, but you don't look like anybody that's in their community. You are poised. You carry yourself.

Wow. So about 22?

Bless you. Yes. Okay.

Alright. Yes.

Good good and grown. Good and grown. Yes.

You know, I, I I talk about the rules and my my dad often tells me stories of how when he grew up in Mississippi being hit across the head by police officers with with billy clubs. And my dad, you talked about first black pharmacist and and whatnot in your town. My dad was a pharmacist.

Wow.

And so by the age of 27, he owned several of his own pharmacies. So I saw excellence in my family. And then he went back and retired, to Mississippi, bought up a bunch of the land. And you know what he did? He built a white house on that land.

I love it. I love it.

And they they told him, what are you doing? Nobody builds a white house. You can't build a a black man can't build a white house. Yeah. Right? But this wasn't white people. This was black people telling them that.

See. Yeah.

You know, and so we have certain types of rules and things that we just cannot get over that keep us from being able to move into spaces that would really allow us to be influential, impactful, and really pursue what I believe God has for us. And those are the those are the people that I wanna really talk to today and just you know, if you find yourself, wanting to elevate Mhmm. And as you're transitioning, I I want people to really have some tips and we've told them, hey. Just understand that you are you. Be yourself.

I would say going back to, the black alumni at the university. I mean, now we're older, more mature, so kinda like the beef or whatever you may have had in college has passed. Everybody's kinda had ups and downs and it's great that familiar relationships have been reestablished or newly established. I've been blessed since one of my big birthdays to go to Martha's Vineyard every summer and they are nothing but black excellence and literally people speak to each other. It's not the bougie thing that everybody thinks.

Mhmm.

And then you branch out from that area as well. Faith based groups as well. I did not pledge a sorority. You know, I love everybody. Go d nine. But even my friends, like, I come along, I support, I help, and even just a charitable organization, like, whatever it may be. You know, I think just getting involved as a person first and then linking up with brothers and sisters, people who look like you, who have similar interests.

No. That is excellent. All of those are spot on. I think we just need to really feel comfortable stepping out and doing it.

That part. And, you know, but sitting home is not gonna accomplish anything. You know, I I always say, you know, some of my lowest moments in these last couple of years and financially has been challenging, but I always give myself grace and time to do something I love, and that's moving my body. And that was finding an affordable tennis place to play and going and just cheering somebody on. And you'd be surprised once you say good shot, how somebody else will loosen up.

Yeah. And in in doing that, I I would advise everybody to take stock of what you like. Yes. Separate yourself from the noise of social media. Separate yourself from the noise of anything of what you think is appropriate Correct. For your age group or whatever. There are certain things I found out that I like that's like, you know, I'm kinda nerdy. Right? So, and once you find that out, go to those spaces and really just ask somebody their story.

Yeah.

And if you ask someone their story, you start to find commonality.

Mhmm.

Right? The biggest thing that I've learned to do and here's here's there's a game that I like to play. And the first thing I do when I meet somebody, I find a common bond.

Okay. Okay.

Right? Regardless of whether they're white, black, Asian, whatever, find a common bond. And you can always find a common bond. I might start off by giving a compliment. I love the sweater. I love, you know, your shoes. Starting it and then find a common bond. Then find out something new.

Mhmm.

Right? And then as you find out something new, you just start digging and just learning about and just be curious about people. And it will start to open up your eyes. But you also said joining the groups.

Right.

Right? Being open to joining groups and being able to, get engulfed in those groups can help you navigate those those moments.

You know, and I'll even say, I mean, for some people who perhaps are more loners, just start out slow. If you just have to go somewhere out to eat by yourself and sit at the bar, bartenders are great conversationalists.

Yes.

They I mean, that's what they do. And then the person next to you, you're right, you're left, say hi, whatever. I mean, it's just something, you know, so easy that you can just, you know, or go sit out by a fountain or something. I mean, you you just or or the great thing if you have a pet. Walking having a child or having a pet, you're sure to meet some people.

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. So we're talking about meeting people, but we're really talking about transition because as we're transitioning, it's important to have community. Yeah. Community is so important during transition because we were not meant to live life alone.

Correct.

And I think that's where some people struggle because when you get into some of these places and you don't see anyone that looks like you or comes from your background, you start to feel like you're all alone and you can then, you start to fade into the background. Correct. And so we wanna encourage you to really engage and find as I tell my daughter, I'm so happy you're finding your tribe. Mhmm. Find your tribe, little things that you like, and get involved with people.

And something you talked about with rules is also, you know, a lot in the black community, vulnerability. Don't tell anybody our business. Don't tell anybody what's going on in this house. Keep your mouth shut. Blah blah blah.

You

know, I I I say in the midst of my divorce, and I'm very thankful to my former first lady, Martika Jenkins.

Shout out.

Shout out. You know, she didn't sit me down, you know, as most of the time you're going through a divorce, you know. She was like, no. No. You can stand up here, hand out these programs, tell the people I love them, hand them a tissue, and send them into the sanctuary.

Absolutely. They

would they're too worried about their

own stuff. You know, you mentioned that and in one of my toughest moments, I mentioned I went to school, Drake University, Des Moines, Iowa and I went to school with the mentality that white people were were racist.

Yeah.

Now, my mother passed away during college so I didn't have any way of paying for school anymore. I had I was I had done some stupid stuff, got kicked off the basketball team, so I'm just spending for myself at this point. But I shared my struggles with someone and the way that I finished college was by the hands of a white man.

Wow.

Right. A white man came alongside by hearing my story and he paid for the rest of my school. And the funny thing is is that it was said that he was racist. And so apparently, he had gone to an HBCU and he got the mess beat out of him at the HBCU And it hardened his heart.

Yeah.

But at that point, he had gone through life and he had been known as racist, but he came alongside me and paid for my education. And I became the 3rd or 4th black I think my brother was the first, black computer science major to ever graduate from that university

Yeah.

Because of a racist white man.

Right.

And I had gone into the situation thinking that I can't trust people. If they're white, they're out to get me and everything else. Because on college campuses, you get all kinds of rhetoric and all kinds of stuff thrown at you. And so it's important to, 1, find community, to 2, be willing to share. Don't be so suspicious of everyone, but then also open yourself up to allow people to pour into you and be willing to pour into somebody else.

That's true.

Because as you were serving, you were lifted up and blessed in the midst of your your your chaos.

Yeah.

Right? So all those all those things are important if you're going through transition. And so we're gonna wrap up here soon. I wanna get one last thought from you about how to deal with transition or some of the things that you have gone through that you wanna leave other people.

You know, I with transition, the the word that just keeps coming back to me is vulnerability. And they say pride goeth before a fall. It's really just letting the pride go. I think, you know, 1 or 2 trusted people, and and we all go through transitions. It's it's a function of life.

You know, that's the biggest thing I'm learning is how to lean on people. Yeah. I have several people here as part of my tribe, and they have talked me off the ledge. They have kept me out of jail. They have they have just really just blessed me in ways that they could never ever imagine, and you can't say thanks enough. So I just want people to understand that you cannot do life alone.

Exactly.

There's no way you can do life alone. You have to have a group of people. You were not meant to do it alone. So find that tribe. Open your mouth And when you're going through transition, let's not be married to the history

Correct.

Of what we've experienced. Sometimes we're just married to the history or to the things that parents have passed down. And fear was passed down to me and I get it. My dad, my mom, Mississippi

Right.

Back in the forties, fifties, it was not a nice place. But as I traveled the world and I began to meet new people, I allowed other people the opportunity to show me who they are.

Right.

And I decided to show them who I am. And I've met some wonderful people along the way.

Yeah.

So I wanna encourage everybody. As we wrap up here, you'll always be going through transition, but god is really taking you trying to take you to another level. And as we transition up, we get better with with with some of the challenges that we're going through. And as we're transitioning up, you'll be invited into spaces that you would have never imagined, but you first have to just allow yourself to be used, be open, be vulnerable, have people around you, and to actually be willing to bless other people in the midst of your storm and challenges. And then as you transition, you'll never be the same.