Relationships After Baby with Couples Therapist Dr. Tracy Dalgleish

makes sense. And both you and your partner are officially or soon to be parents as little as they are. Having a baby is a really big deal. But somewhere in the back of your baby overloaded mind, you may be wondering what happens to the two of us when baby makes three. Will you still be a couple or will you just become a couple of parents? Will you live to love each other again in the same way.

The answer is yes, yes, one thousand times yes. But like nurturing a baby, nurturing a relationship takes time, commitment, and a lot of hard work. Happily, we're about to make it seem a little bit easier. Today M and I are talking relationships with Dr Tracy Dalglish Tracy as a clinical psychologist and couple therapists who specializes in helping couples postpartum with everything from maintaining intimacy to preventing resentment, to learning to communicate and work as a team to

parent your new little bundle of joy. She's also a mom of two and a partner in parenting as both Emma and I are. So and well, let's start with you. What was the hardest adjustment for you and Simon when

you brought Stevy home. You already have Lenox. Yeah, so I feel like, in a sense that I was kind of lucky without because I was a single m and so Simon and I got knocked up after like four months of dating, so we really didn't have that honeymoon phase that a lot of couples have, and I'm always kind of envious to the couples who get that time,

which we never got. Although I'm grateful for the fact that I had Lennox, so even when we started dating, you know, there was time issues and scheduling and so we were kind of prepared in that sense. But I really feel now, especially because it's been so rough for this past year, that we really could have used that alone time. For me, the hardest thing is making time because at the end of the day, I am so tired, and for us at least, like the relationship is always

kind of put on the back burner. We need to build on reconnecting at the end of the day instead of disconnecting because we're there's a lot of disconnection happening. I mean, my husband works fourteen hours a day, so he's exhausted. He gets into bed, he's out like a light. And when he's not working, he's with the kids. And that makes me so happy because personally, I would rather

have them have that time. Although it's kind of affecting a relationship, and when it comes to a relationship that kind of falls into the third party, like it's the it's it's work kids relationship, and I feel like a lot of people feel that way, and I want to learn how to prioritize but also still have my kids have their dad. Fortunately, for you and for all the moms out there and dads, we have a professional in the house, and I am so glad we do. Tracy,

thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for inviting me. I am so glad to be sitting with both of you, Heidi and Emma. At what point did you realize that you wanted to focus on helping new parents with their relationships. You know, it's interesting when I think about this question that we often can say what leads us to certain areas of work is often our own experience as a psychologist and couples therapists.

I was working within maternal mental health in in practice already and helping women in the postpartum period, helping couples after they had had children, But it wasn't truly until I had my own child, my first one, that I was just side tracked with, you know, just the disparity of information that is being provided to women and couples

before having a baby. And I mean, I think so many of us can relate to this one where you go to your six week check up and they say, all right, you're good, You're all clear, and I'm thinking all clear for what I'm backing most of the time, I'm sweating at night, I'm up in the middle of the night, ready for what. And my partner and I, I mean, we were both navigating the role changes are changes and identities and then also all the changes in

our relationships. And while I knew all of the communication tools and strategies, no one could have prepared me for the mental load that came on after having our first child. Yeah, so you didn't exactly know what to expect. No, I feel like unrealistic expectations can be at the root of relationships struggles that are ahead. They can almost forecast it, because babies bring big changes, and there's changes in every

aspect of your life. They change your lifestyle, your schedule, you're all of your relationships absolutely, and you know, we think of all the things that we prepare for, We prepare for the nursery, we prepare for labor, we do the readings, and we rarely prepare our relationships. That's right. So what are some of the most common issues that you see in couples dealing with that change in relationship

when they bring a new baby home. What don't they expect? Yes, oh, yes, Well, the first thing that comes to mind is navigating all of the emotions that show up. So for many moms they talk about well and both parents, the depression, the anxiety, the blues, the baby blues that show up, you know, the random tearfulness, and then also the rage that shows

up during that time for women as well. It's not something that we are prepared for we talk about, and the challenge with this is that we also don't always know how to share our feelings or even ask for our needs. So that is one of the top things that I see show up. But on top of that, which is the big piece I've already alluded to, is

navigating the roles and the demands that show up. You know, if you are breastfeeding, have you talked about who's waking up with baby to do the diaper change first before feeding? Are you sharing the night feedings? You know, that's something that we don't tend to talk about. And ultimately all of this goes into our intimacy, right we do not prepare the conversations around how will we maintain our physical closeness, what will we do to remain close? And all of

this goes into the side. We just keep going because we're in survival mode learning how to you know, rock this baby and feed the baby. And then resentment starts to build up, and many moms are so surprised to experience the level of resentment towards a partner. My theory is two old. One is the obvious. That's society talking. Still, even though society is way behind the wheel, right, we expect moms to be nurtures. We don't expect that necessarily

of dad's. And the problem I feel is number two, that the dads aren't given the chance, that women have a way of taking over, and then they sort of step away from the changing table, they step away from everything, they step away from the relationship because it's all baby and mommy. Absolutely, yes, absolutely, those are two key pieces. So what society tells us I hear from a lot of mothers this internal guilt. I should be able to

do it all. I shouldn't burden my partner. They shouldn't have to wake up in the middle of the night with me, you know somehow, and you know, for a good reason. We're nurturing and caring. But this is about being that collaborative and co creating this family together. Huge piece. But then the other piece that I love what you've said they're harty is that dad's aren't given the chance. And this is where maternal gatekeeping really comes into play. Oh,

I love that phrase. Yes, and it starts really early on that you know, naturally, we start to maybe feel uncomfortable feelings as we're seeing dad trying to navigate crying baby, so we think, Okay, well baby's uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable. Let me jump in, rather than mom just taking that step back and saying, Okay, my partner needs to learn to do this as well, So I'm going to let them do that, and maybe I will take this opportunity to

go have a shower or do something for myself. Trees, I'm curious how you feel that the pandemic it's changed so much about our lives, But how do you think

it's changed relationships for the better and for the worst. Yeah, for for the for the better in some ways, So when I'm thinking of when baby comes home, of all of the new parents during this time, in some ways, what has been really good about this opportunity is that if your partner is working from home, that has been a beautiful space that I've been able to tap into

with a lot of my clients as well. So if rage, anxiety, or depression are showing up, can you just gently knock on your partner's door and they can hold baby for ten minutes while you go and do something for yourself.

That has been a huge benefit. Now downfall, unfortunately, though, is that we know that to really feel good during the postpartum period, especially in the first six months, we need to have a strong social support network, and families are just having this taken away from them right now that you know you can't lean on you know, maybe your mom coming to live with you for two weeks, or friends dropping by and holding babies so you can

take the shower or make the meal for yourself. We're just really having to go through this time on our own, and as a result, parents are getting exhausted and they are burnt out without being able to lean on anyone for more support. Now that's true. And Emma, how about you. I think part of the problem for you is that you're both working at home, but Simon's one who's working fourteen hours a day. Yeah, so you know, communication is

really important and I'm not the greatest communicator. I think I'm communicating, but I'm thinking it and I expect him to read my mind at all times, and then I explode. So there needs to be away where I can communicate in a healthy way. I'll get like so mad at the end of the day. Because he's upstairs working and I'm taking care of the kids. I'm doing school pickups, I'm doing school with Lenox, I'm cleaning, I'm making dinner.

And then I start like throwing dishes in the sink, you know, and I slammed doors and I slammed And that's not good for my kids either, to see me like that. So I think communication is so incredibly important, and that's something that I obviously need to work on. And can I normalize that that nobody really teaches us the communication piece. We don't learn what to do with our feelings and how to express them and get them out.

And you know, I posted something recently about when you say I feel like you never help out, it's actually not a feeling word. But many people, for they were saying, oh, that's a light bulb moment, right, okay, versus the saying I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm feeling frustrated, I need help. We just don't learn how to do that. I appreciate that, that's that's very true. How does Emma and how do other couples work on communicating before the baby even arrives

on the scene, Yes, before the baby even arrives. Okay, so we need to make sure looking at how we are communicating, are we getting into negative communication patterns? So those are the patterns of blame and criticism, defensiveness, Are we um contemptuous towards our partner? Or are we stonewalling? Those communication patterns lead to us into negative interaction cycles.

And that looks like as I'm pursuing you, as I'm approaching you for attention and affection, one partner might step back, and as that partner step back, you start to knock on the door louder, Hello, I need help, where are you? And the louder you get, the other person withdraws more. And so couples get into these patterns that are often there even before baby comes, but we haven't learned to necessarily get out of them beforehand. So that would be

the first thing that we really need to work on beforehand. So, am, how does that sound to you? That sounds that sounds doable? And yeah, that does sound too. I feel like I feel like empowered, Like it's a new day, it's a new dawn, it's a new day. I have an example for this, you know, I'm I'm sure you can relate to this party. I know you can relate to this as well. As it's kind of like a month in advance. You get the party invite and you're like, yeah, the party.

I can't wait to go to the party. Right the day of the party, you think, oh gosh, why did I say yes, I don't want to go, and so you said, all right, I'm gonna go. Anyways, So you go to the party, and then afterwards you say, oh, I'm so glad I went to the Party's not so true into missing in our relationships is exactly that. So even though you know, I had one couple that described this perfectly. The male partner would go and give her a hug and she's like, I don't want to hug.

I don't want to hug, and he would say, I'm just gonna hold you. I'm gonna keep squeezing you, and after a few seconds she would let herself release into it exactly, And it's very much like a toddler, like when they're having a tantrum. Sometimes giving them a big giant hug, even if you're mad at them and they're mad at you, it communicates in a way that words can't, and it melts down that resentment or that anger, and in moment you feel close and connected. But there's also

the issue of time. Like big time, it's hard to find time. Jersey, what's some advice you have for couples who feel like they don't have the time. Yeah, how do you're talking about? The number one thing I say to couples, which is getting intentional to schedule it. It doesn't have to be rigid, but it's an agreement that you know, every Sunday night we have a thirty minute connection time where we have no distractions. It's the getting

out of the all or nothing. Right. We can't take the weekend away just the two of us, the adventure, the week long adventure, so we're not going to do anything it. No, it's more about those small, manageable pieces that you can do every single day, and I think those do have more meaning even than the weekend away, which comes with so many expectations like vacation. You have to have sex so many times a day and have

all this intimacy. But in fact, if you who actually make time for it at home and it's just twenty minutes, that can mean more, at least cumulatively. Now, of course this says bring us to intimacy. And it's funny how people use it as a euphemism for sex, But I think of sex as sex and intimacy as something that is all the time. One of the things I think is so important around this is, first, let's let's redefine sex.

And how do I agree with what you're saying around that is that it is not just this sex as an intercourse. It is more about this intimacy of let's think of all the ways we can be intimate, physical intimacy, sexual intimacy, which is intercourse or outer course. Right, there's pleasure on the outside of our bodies as well, emotional intimacy sharing our thoughts and feelings, intellectual intimacy, which is let's listen to a podcast or read a book together

and share our ideas over that. Or my favorite and my go to is the experiential intimacy. We painted our main floor during COVID and we felt so close doing this project together. Right, that's so cute. I love that in the postpartum period, in that first year, it doesn't have to be sex, but instead let's find the other ways that we can bridge that connection. Absolutely, I agree. I think that for me though, when you don't have sex as often as you used to, it's a little

bit like stressful. What's interesting, though, is that for me during that newborn stage, the baby stage, that was the easy stage. And now that I have a toddler, of my vaginas shut. It's closed up because I'm tired. Absolutely. And what we're talking about there is responsive desire versus

spontaneous desire. And it is incredibly hard to have spontaneous desire when you are carrying a backpack of bricks on and inside of that backpack is the number of diapers you've changed, the running around toddler, and the tantrums and the melting down, and then the laundry and all of

that on top of it. And then you go to the bedroom at the end of the day you have no energy left, and you think, somehow I'm going to be lubricated and excited and and you can with a backpack of bricks and you look over and there is the laundry basket full of clothes that you didn't get to do. So spontaneous desire does tend to fade as

we move through this stage. But what's important is we remember the responsive desire which is if you get into bed and you lie your bodies next to each other and you start to touch each other in ways that feel good, then assault your body is going to respond. And I think that's also important that we remember that as women, that is something that we are more likely to experience compared to compared to men in heterosexual relationship. Yeah, that's true, you know, but I think that dad's also

experience postpartum, you know, baby blues. They they have changes in their hormones that you know, lower test saucetone. They're feelings sleep deprived, not to the extent maybe that we are, but it does changing too. Yeah, their lobito might not be what it was. But what do we do as women? We assume that it's us, like we're not sexy anymore, right, right. I think that people need to be more willing to have dialogues around this, and that that dialogue is not

something that's personal. And that is one of the hardest things that I see for couples when I come into my office is they just do not know how to talk about sex as something that we can create together, but that it's not personal, and that we can make space for both people to have an experience, and if one partner wants it five times a week and the other one is okay with one once a month, maybe even we've got to find that middle space together and

how we're going to work through it because we need to consider both people. You know, it's really interesting that oftentimes when a mom does say to her partner in session, I don't want you to come near me. I don't want to give you hugs because I'm worried that if I let you hug me, you're going to want sex. And so then we get this assumption or this perception that any touch from my partner is going to leave

to them wanting sex. And the male partner will often say, I just want to be close to you, I just want to hold you. That it is not always me coming in for sex. It is let's build closeness. And it puts a lot of pressure on him as well, right if he thinks that, you know, he brings sex to the table, you know, and it has to be sex. So, Ama, how do you feel about going to give Simon a hug?

I'm such a I don't know, like I think that you and I are very different because I think that sometimes like when I'm mad, like I want to stay mad, and I want to have that reason to be mad and to like hold a grudge and to have him like gravel, and that's such a horrible quality. But I feel like, so if I give in and I give that hug, it's like I'm letting that go, and maybe

I'm not ready to let it go. What if you could have both, Emma, What if you could still have your mad feelings and you can still have your partner. I think I think that would be great. I think, honestly, it would probably make me a much happier, less dressed out, angry person if I would release some of the anger and let go of things easier. I think what you're speaking to, Emma is the sense that what we really

need to feel is being seen from our partners. We really want to know that they see what we're feeling. And sometimes our partners come in and say, Okay, you're struggling, how can I fix it? How can I problem solve, Let me do this, I'll do that, and they really miss what it is that we're feeling. And exactly when they miss it, then we start to dig in even further. Rather than being able to communicate them. Can you see just the feeling that I'm having right now? I just

need you to see that I'm angry about this. Yeah. And I think men and women generally are wired differently. And my husband obviously does not think the same way I do, just like he doesn't understand necessarily like why I feel a certain way. Sometimes I'm like understood, don't understand why he feels a certain way. Yeah, And I'm curious to hear what you have to say about that, Tracy.

If we go to the search. So the research by John Gottmann's group, they have studied over a three thousand couples. They've hooked men and women, heterosexual couples up to all of the measures their heart rates, sweat monitoring, and what we see is that when a couple starts to talk about a heated discussion, men's markers actually go up much higher and quicker than a female's marker. So they are more prone to being to feeling flooded and overwhelmed in disagreements.

And so then they because of that, because of this rush of emotion, you know, increased heart rate, shortness of breath, more sweating, they are more likely to be the ones to shut down in conversations and to not talk about their emotions. And if we also then look at the attachment research, we do tend to see that more men tend to be avoidantly attached, which means it's not that they don't have those feelings, is that they feel those feelings they are overwhelming, and then they shut them down.

And men are more likely to compartmentalize as well. You know, I see that clinically in my experience. Your partner might have a big disagreement with you and then you're still thinking about it, but then they come home and you're wondering, why aren't they saying anything about it? Because they've compartmentalized it. They're like, okay, yeah, she's smiling, We're okay, okay, we're good.

Let's keep going forward. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly yeah. And then the question there's, so how do we start this dialogue? Because if we come to them in this place of escalation and anger and why aren't you talking about this, then that's just going to shut them right down even more. And again that's kind of that relationship cycle that we so commonly see happen. That's right, So you know, we have other moms and we expect community who had a

lot of questions. I hear it mainly from women who are assuming this is true, less so from guys who have experienced it. But do you have any tips for rebuilding attraction? I don't necessarily believe this happens, but that you know a man who witnesses, you know, a baby coming out of a vagina feels differently about the vagina. First of all, how much of a man miss do you think that is? Or do you hear it quite a lot as well? And what can you do about that?

I actually haven't really heard that. I've heard more from men that birth thing is an incredibly vulnerable experience where partners feel closer together. They do need to do some of their own processing. But definitely I don't tend to hear that this has changed it. But what I think is more relevant here is how your partner sees you viewing yourself and how you feel towards your postpartum body. Now,

that's very true. Yeah, so we are perceiving ourselves. That's why I think it's more of a perception thing or on a woman's side, than it is an actual man thing. Though I've heard women say that their partners have expressed that I have to. For me, I was so nervous about because I had literally I hadn't known him that long before I got pregnant, and I said to the nurse when I was pushing, I was like, he can't see me poop. That was my interpretation of him, will

never look at me the same way. That's so much pressure on you. And I wonder in this situation of you know, for you to feel good about yourself, are you taking a mirror and looking at your valva and looking to see how things have changed, and are you spending time loving this area of your body so that then when your partner then joins you can they also see your excitement about sharing your body with them. And I think that builds more intimacy than just don't look

at it. Yeah, no, I know. I feel like I have a huge, like wallop about my business. After having two kids, I don't feel as confident. And we know that sex doesn't happen between the legs, right, it happens between the ear. So true, but what do women do about feeling insecure in their own postpartum skin? You know, one of the things we haven't really tapped on yet today is that piece around our own identity? So how are you as mom, as a new mom, nurturing your identity?

Are you going out to see your friends, are you going out for walks? Do you do things that nurture who you are? And do you feel good because that also brings you that whole self rather than just viewing that there's something about your body. So I would think that that's one of the most important things to start with.

But then also goodness like just looking at our bodies and seeing what our bodies have done for us, finding clothes that fit us and make us feel attractive no matter what side, no matter what size, not trying to fit into those old jeans. Right, your body has changed, but you still need to feel good day to day rather than waiting for some magical moment where maybe those genes will fit, or maybe your thing is masscary each

day or something that's going to help you to feel good. Ultimately, at the end of the day, it is our job to communicate our thoughts and feelings, opinions, and our needs, and we're responsible for how we communicate that, but we're not responsible for how our partner feels when we communicate that. That brings up another question from the community, which is, how do you deal with that resentment tracy that you talked about when one parent is doing more than the other.

We don't want to go to our partners and say I resent you, this is awful what's going on between us? That will just send alarm bells off for them. But instead we want to start making our unspoken needs spoken. We want to be able to offload those things and sometimes they might be small pieces to start with, but it's about being consistent and continuing to have our partner step in. So one mom said her husband says he has postpartum depression and she wants to know how she

can help him. Yeah, this is to tough one. You know. I think sometimes what women do is we start to feel uncomfortable when we see our partners struggling, whether it's with depression or anxiety, and so what we want to do is we start to jump in there to fix and problem solve. And this really isn't a helpful position to take when our partners are struggling. It alleviates more of our own anxiety and more than helping our partner out.

So one of the most important things we can do around mental health when our partners are struggling is really just to hold space for our partner, which means I see you, I see that you're struggling, and I'm going to ask you how you're doing and make space for you to tell me what your struggle is. I'm not going to dismiss it or problem solve it. I'm going

to make that space. But what I think is really important here is that we don't get into a space of enabling that de activation that comes with depression, so that we do still want our partners to be part of babies life. Yes, one partner could have depression and we can support them, but we do still want to facilitate connecting with our values and that's really important. One therapy that definitely helps with feelings of depression or anxiety

is that closeness between you and your baby. Not inevitably, but sometimes it definitely does. Absolutely that's so important. And then asking your partners to come along with us. So if we're taking baby for a walk, okay, you wear baby, let's go for a walk together. Rather than kind of that top down of saying you need therapy, you need to go do this, you need to look after yourself and then have a different way of processing and dealing with depression. Right, so they may mask it in other

ways and may need you to help them get help. Right, And that comes back to that, you know, what were the conversations we're going to have before baby comes that can we talk about what are we going to do when one partner struggles? How will we signal to each other? How will we support each other when those big emotions come up? Personally? For me, you know we met, we got engaged. After three months, I got pregnanti formant, and you know that time that we got to know each other.

In that formant, I looked great, like I always like, it was the very very early stage of the relationship. So you dressed up, you look amazing and blah blah blah. And now like, because I feel like, and this is gonna sound horrible, but I feel like he got jipped. Like I feel like it was like false advertisement because I had all my ship together and now it's like, which comes back to that, how do you define your

worth here as a And that's that's my bad. Yeah, I'm a very I'm very insecure, But Emma, that in that sense though, that anxiety there with that insecurity. It is something that women experience that you know, they attribute this distance between us because I had a baby, when actually, oftentimes there are a lot of other things that are happening, not just because you know, you've been wearing mom pants for a year or whenever it is right that that

Actually there's a lot of other things. And what I do hear male partners often saying is they're like, you know you weren't sleeping, so I didn't approach you because I wanted to give you space. But meanwhile, the other partner, who feels insecure and anxious is saying, I thought it was all me. You know, it must have been me. There must be something wrong with me, And so we're making um that misattribution there to why we're not having sex. How do we bridge this gap? Like it really is

this big gap? And I truly do wish that if anyone listening, can you know, if you're struggling in this, you don't have to keep waiting. You can do things to help yourself. Don't keep waiting, because the longer you wait, the bigger that gap grows, and the more that resentment build and we just don't want that to happen for years. So how do you bridge that gap? Like, you know, just touch each other, like come back and say, can I just rub your arm today? Go back to those

hugs and take the pressure off that. There's got to be some way that we can get intentional around what feels good for each other. That's the ticket. So Emma and many others need to know where to find you. The main space that I hang out in is Instagram, So I'm over there Dr dot chc D and on my website Dr chacy d dot com. I have all kinds of free resources there, and you can also find my podcast and my online space where I help couples to and feel empowered and improve their relationships. So it

reach out to me. I love getting social on there. That's that's what it's really far. Thank you. I've learned a lot. Thank you so much for having me here. Thanks Hidi, Thank you, Emma, baby love my baby love. I need you, Oh how I need you. Thanks for listening. Remember I'm always here for you. What to expect is always here for you. We're all in this together. For more on what you heard on today's episode, visit What

to Expect dot com slash podcast. You can also check out What to Expect when You're Expecting, What to Expect the First Year, and the What to Expect app. And we want to hear from you. Connect with us on our community message board or on our social media. You can find me at Heidi Murkoff and Emma at Emma bing wt E and of course at What to Expect. Baby Love is performed by Riley Peterer. What to Expect

is a production of I Heart Radio. From more shows from I Heart Radio, check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. In my Arms, what Don't Just Stay Leja Needa, Baby Baby