Myths of the American West: A Conversation with Historian Betsy Gaines Quammen

[00:00:00] Emy Digrappa: Welcome to What's Your Why? The Author's Journey. I am your host, Emy digrappa. What's your why is brought to you by Wyoming Humanities? Every writer has a story long before the first word is written. What's your why is the podcast where authors share the journeys, the inspirations, and defining moments that have shaped their craft. [00:00:23] Whether you're a book lover, an aspiring writer, or simply fascinated by the creative process, this show takes you beyond and behind to look and see into the minds of storytellers. And of course, I'm someone who loves the power of words. That's why I love doing this podcast. And today my special guest is historian and writer Betsy Gaines Quammen. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, New York Daily News, and the History News Network. Her latest book is called True West: Myth and Mending on the Far Side of America. True West explores the myths and misperceptions of the American West. Welcome, Betsy. [00:01:11] Betsy Quammen: Thank you so much for having me. it's really great to be with you. [00:01:14] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. I'm gonna love this conversation because you live in Montana and I live in Wyoming, so we live the American West, and that's why I'm going to love this conversation because we live inside of it in a way that. Those perceptions outside of it are so interesting when you talk to people about that. [00:01:42] But first I wanna know, where'd you grow up? [00:01:45] Betsy Quammen: I grew up in Cincinnati, Ohio, so I moved to the west, when I, grew up going to Colorado, and skiing and, falling deeply in love. And, and I ended up going to college in Colorado. Then I went to graduate school in Montana. and I've been here ever since. [00:02:08] So I have spent, I'm, gosh, I've now been in Montana for 32 years and, which yeah, it's, been a little while and, absolutely love it. But I also am one of those people, because I've studied the west so much, that. I can never quite claim that. I'm, a true westerner because I did grow up outside of the area, but I, have really tried as a historian to understand this place and to be a good citizen. [00:02:41] Emy Digrappa: So when you went to college, were you, a history major? What was your major? [00:02:45] Betsy Quammen: No, I was actually an English major and, I, started out being a biology major and then couldn't quite get through organic chemistry. So, I, I decided to be an English major, which was really fun. And, and then after school I moved to Telluride to work for a newspaper there. [00:03:07] And, and that was great. I really, so I, I. Started to do writing, during college and after college and, and then found my way into, I, it's strange. I actually got my master's degree in conservation or, environmental studies and worked for years in conservation and then, got my PhD in history. [00:03:31] So I've done a little bit of this and a little bit of that. [00:03:35] Emy Digrappa: you obviously, love history, because you got your. Doctorate in history, your PhD. So that's very cool. And that's why I love talking to writers and historians. I think, they're my favorite interviews because, of the work they've done. [00:03:52] Because they go deeper. They dive deeper. And I feel like when you're a writer and you're a historian, you, understand the power of the written word because you're. You go back in time to see what was written first. [00:04:08] Betsy Quammen: Yeah, and I think that, it's, interesting as a historian, to understand how cyclical things are and to understand patterns and to understand, this isn't the first time. [00:04:21] This certain event has happened. It, gives you a, certain perspective that is somewhat reassuring even when you're navigating tricky history. my interest in history really came about because of my interest in conservation actually. And, I, am incredibly. interested in public lands and, and I think that's something that as westerners we have such an appreciation for. [00:04:50] and so when I began my dissertation, or when I began my work, I was really looking at how. Various cultures perceive land. And, that took me to, LLDS and understanding latter Day Saints and how Latter Day Saints, settled the West and what that means in terms of looking at public lands and some of the land use wars that we've seen. [00:05:19] So it, it really was about, how do I understand. How to take care of public lands given the various perspectives people have on public lands. And that's been really interesting 'cause I started. With my dissertation, looking at how the Southern Ute, view public lands, how LDS people view public lands, how environmentalists view public lands, and really it gave me an understanding of why things are Why there are so many various ways of perceiving the West and, it's not just outsiders looking at us, it's the way, and I say we, again, understanding that I came to the west as well. that, that the way that people see the land, that became really, interesting to me. And, help me understand why we're going through the things we're going through. [00:06:12] Emy Digrappa: So is that just taking it back to your study of the west, your love of the west, love of the land and really that becoming part of your heart and soul and writing. Is that why you wrote, your book is to talk about that? [00:06:28] Betsy Quammen: Okay, so my first book was, American Zion, which was, which looked at what I'm talking about, the land use wars, and, and some of the people who were involved who, who actually are LDS, this was Clive and Bundy and, and his family. [00:06:47] and so that again, was, what I did my dissertation on. And, that's what my first book is on. But what I, found is that. and this was my own interest, again, in, in understanding how Western mythology has really impacted. America and the way that Americans see themselves. And in part of that's the way that, the west has been portrayed in pop culture. [00:07:17] And, in particular, most recently the show Yellowstone, which, which really played on a lot of Western mythology. So during COVID, when I first started to write True West, I was looking at how this. Yellowstone became such a huge phenomenon. And I think part of it was people were cooped up and they were looking at these sweeping landscapes in Montana and deciding, oh my gosh, that seems like such an anecdote to, to what I'm going through right now. [00:07:47] So people were coming here, they were buying places sight unseen because they longed for this idea of freedom and, this western ethos, again. Hollywood's version of it. And so that got me thinking about how. The West was construed in so many different ways. it, it also was seen as a kind of healthy and salubrious place. [00:08:11] this was a place of fresh air and, wide open spaces. And, I was seeing these little towns, that were tourist towns be inundated by people who had this feeling that, oh gosh, I should go west. And everything's healthy out there. And poor clinics were being, swamped by these sort people with certain expectations who actually were making it more difficult for, western towns. [00:08:40] And in particular, I'm thinking of places like Ketchum and Crested Butte. and so these are some of the things I talk about. this myth of the West being healthy, going back to. Tuberculosis and people coming out here with tb, to cure themselves. people who, who longed for, the West as sanctuaries and, I'm looking at places like Jackson, and Bozeman, places where wealthy people can go and buy a little place of wilderness. [00:09:14] And What were all the things that were, incentivizing people to move west? That's, I what I was thinking about while I was sitting there waiting, the world opening them back up is how could I figure out what was happening to the place that I lived, based on these Western mythologies? [00:09:35] and it became really interesting. I, was able to meet any number of people who had any number of perspectives on this place, and I began to see the west. As a constellation of truths, ideas that people have, that they either bring here or that they've been raised on. and so that's how true West came into being. [00:09:58] Emy Digrappa: living in Jackson, but now I live in Moran, Buffalo Valley. But same thing, just, it 30 miles north. but the reason that I, I think it's Amazing here. And three to 4 million people come through, into the parks every year. And we, have an inner struggle in inside of our, being. [00:10:24] Because you live here and you love it, but you feel like we're loving it to death. Like people are coming here and. moose get hit by cars or, just our migrations, just things get, overtaken like you were saying. They get overtaken and, yeah, people were buying, homes site unseen during covid, and it raised our visitor numbers tremendously. [00:10:56] Because people weren't flying, they were driving. And so they were coming on vacation. So it's just interesting how, taking care of the land is a huge controversy. I. [00:11:10] Betsy Quammen: Yeah, and this is something that I really think about too. because there is a such thing as loving it to death. I was very fortunate during the book to spend, a lot of time with, Indigenous people and my, native writers and, thinkers and conservationists. And one of the things that I think about, when, I was addressing e economic inequities, and and that's something that the Justin Ferrell has written. An incredible book called Billionaire Wilderness. [00:11:40] And I referenced his book 'cause it's so incredible. But, the other person that I thought was thinking about that's so interesting is, Chris La Tray, who's Métis, he's Little Shell Chippewa and and when he was. addressing these ideas about economic inequity. he talked about, welcome to the last 500 years mofo, as a, he is a poet. [00:12:06] He's very funny. it's, this, the west has had iteration after iteration, of people coming in and, first it was, about settler colonialism and it was. Taking land. and this latest iteration is wealthy people coming in and buying land, or houses that, that westerners can no longer afford. [00:12:28] And then we have the tourists who wanna come and grab their little piece of the west, whether that's a vacation, a second home, a third home, a fourth home, as you well know in, in your area. So it's, this is something that I've thought a lot about and I've. I've tried to look at it from both sides because it is something that has happened over and over again. [00:12:52] And yet, I think that when we think about these things now, it's really a matter of how can we protect these lands that have. State protected and do it and, cooperation with, indigenous partners. I really like what's happened at Bear's Ears, that, this, that was a, federal and tribal, and conservation cooperative, And, what am I trying to say? Campaign to, to protect that area and, when we look at what we have here and how incredibly precious it is, and then look at the wildlife that so badly depend on it. I think that, there are, I. real opportunities, to, huh. And I, say this at a time when, the park service is being defunded and people are being laid off, and this is a dire time, but I also think it's a time right now that we could be in conversation. [00:13:54] with different parties to determine how we can best protect what we still have. Because, as you said, and as I said a little bit earlier, as well and agreed with you, that it is being loved to death and it's not sustainable, [00:14:08] Emy Digrappa: right? that's the conversation that, we're always having around her. [00:14:14] In a tourist economy, you have a love hate relationship with the tourist. Yeah. you, we want your money, but go home. Yeah. it's, and then leave here. Hurry now. so it's torturous in that way. [00:14:33] Betsy Quammen: Yeah. it really is. it's, it's a tricky one and, since I've been in Bozeman, it's changed so dramatically. [00:14:43] it has, and it's hard, but it's hard to, be resentful. I've moved out here, I just happened to do it a long time ago, but, it's not, I don't feel like I have. any platform to stand on. I, think that what I have talked about in this book, as people come here, whether they're tourists or whether they're moving here, is really to invest in the West and to understand it and to be a good neighbor and to love it. [00:15:14] I think that, you know that's possible. I do think that I worry about tourists who, I follow the tours on Yellowstone Do, or in Yellowstone Do, And people who are going into the hot pots, people who are trying to get as close as they can to grizzly bears and, bison and that, that's really dangerous for them and also for the wildlife. [00:15:37] And, I'm not really sure how. If we don't have enough staff to, to patrol that or to educate people, that is really dangerous. And these animals are wild in these places, even though they're managed are wild. it's a, conundrum. [00:15:54] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. you want people to appreciate, the wildlife and wild places, because especially, when they come. [00:16:06] From the city and they don't get to see a fox every day or Yeah. Deer or elk or moose. And, it's just where we live is we are so fortunate that we get to, enjoy wildlife. it is a choice, for sure. and there are many people who move, into this area. And they are like, okay, now I got my little piece of heaven, so let's build the gate. [00:16:37] 'cause no one else can move here. Yeah. Now I'm here. No one else can enjoy this. So it's really, tough. I think, what I, find so interesting about, living in Jackson, living in Wyoming, Especially is that people still wanna experience, like what you were saying about Yellowstone and, the popularity of that show. [00:17:01] People want to experience the west. They love the idea, they love the cowboy tradition. They love, the western way of life. you, we have a huge number. Of, people from China, for example, busloads Yeah. That come because they want to see the cowboy, they want to see the west. It's, something that they, love the idea of everything Western. [00:17:34] Betsy Quammen: Yeah. I do take on the cowboy mythology in the book because I, I think that people, we have a Hollywood version of what a cowboy is. cowboys were, that, that was not an easy life. they were generally, had. No money in their pockets. when they got some money, they, and again, this didn't apply to everybody, but a lot of these young, poor men would go into town and blow it on, a night on the town and, they'd be right back in the saddle. [00:18:07] it was hard. they, and it was dangerous. The, these taking these cows across these vast. Stretches of land and you know that there, there could be stampedes. they, were beholden to the cattle barons. It wasn't particularly romantic. And yet we've made it, this, incredibly heroic, symbol of what it means to be an American even, the west, I think that's why it's so popular with Hollywood is that we go back and, romanticize this period of settlement and it really was. it wasn't a, glorious time. we were, it, was, we were taking land, we were settling it. the people who were. Running these cows were ha they had a very hard time. and it's, but it's still, and this is, the book was so interesting to me because I looked at why the West was so attractive and it is the cowboy myth. [00:19:11] It is wide open spaces. It is the idea of quote, unquote, free land because people who come from outside can buy places. it's not free. But it seems quite cheap to them. And and so the west was being saddled by, Expectations that it couldn't, you know, provide. And, and I saw not only, the cowboy myth, but I also saw this idea of the west as blank spaces. [00:19:43] And I think that has created. Communities, that have been susceptible to extremism. And, and I, looked at that particularly in Idaho, how North Idaho became a place, and this has happened for years, where people could go into communities and they thought. I'll reinvent that. I'll reinvent that with my own idea of, what it means to be, and in this case very right wing and, and so we had people going into to communities and really trying to shape them to their own. [00:20:20] Ideologies. And so we were seeing book bands and we were seeing school boards taken over and, and, the west is a blank slate that also is not true, but it was shaping it, that myth was shaping communities. And I just, I, found that again. blank [00:20:41] Emy: Like [00:20:41] Betsy Quammen: slate or wilderness sanctuary. [00:20:44] Let's get a wilderness sanctuary. We're rich. We can have our little gilded wilderness and put a gate up just like you're saying. all the while pressuring communities that are really trying to not only navigate the influx of people moving in, but trying to take care of the land and the resources and the water. [00:21:05] It Covid really did a number on the West because of people's absolute love of it. [00:21:14] Emy Digrappa: it's really interesting 'cause I, do, I work for Wyoming Humanities and we do programming all across Wyoming, and we're, less than 600,000 people across the whole state. [00:21:30] We're rural, communities we're, we live in a boom and bust culture all the time 'cause of oil and gas production and, we're an energy state. so we have very different personalities in our state. we have a lot of people who are still ranching. so they still identify with the cowboy culture, and then you have a roughneck working on an oil rig. [00:22:00] and that could be a, whole different culture. Yeah. And you have a lot of these people. Are lovers of hunting and fishing and, so it's not just one myth or one culture, it's how they all meld together. And it's just been really interesting. living in Wyoming, it, is, a place of extremes, whether it's the wind or the weather. [00:22:33] Betsy Quammen: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's really important to remember. I had a great conversations with ranchers who are, multi-generation ranchers who I had enormous respect for, and actually ended up loving. I am, I've just bought a half a side, beef from, a rancher in Terry Montana, population 600. [00:22:56] And just, I, that's, and when I talk about the cowboy mythology. I talk about what it means to be a real cowboy. 'cause I think that we have a romantic version of things, but these guys, these ranchers are hard workers. They're amazing. I'm so excited to go and see my friend, and Terry and and just 'cause I love to hang out with them and then we get this amazing beef. [00:23:22] but, but the thing that I, write about in this book is that. Being reductive to a cowboy myth is really missing out on the fact that these people are, these ranchers are amazing and it's is such hard work and, it's not easy and their margins are quite slim. when I, got to talk to, my friend, Lance is his name, and this is, I'm wearing his, ranch hat right now. [00:23:48] he and I started talking about, Political issues that, that we we had very different opinions on. at the end of the conversation, and this, he's one of my favorite stories because I think that, we get so polarized, in a community like Bozeman because Bozeman is the university community. [00:24:08] and Terry's a very rural community. And when we sit down together and have a chance to talk, we agree on almost. on a lot of things and, and it, and to be engaged in these relationships and that was one of my favorite things about this book is that I got to sit down with people who had very different ways of viewing the West than I did. [00:24:31] I. And I understand that their view is just as true as anyone else's. And again, I looked at the West as a constellation of truths. and that goes for, I had, I've had wonderful, conversations with people living in, in communities that, are prone to boom and bust. out where, Terry is actually, it's further east, but that's the Bakken, oil fields that, is the, methane. [00:24:58] And, these communities do have, whiplash. you, have a lot of influx of money and not so much influx of money and people are just trying to make a living. and it was incredibly wonderful to talk to folks in rural areas, with economies very different than Bozeman, which is more the tourists and the university. [00:25:20] So I, a thousand percent agree with you. I love the cowboy, but I also loved finding out that, or, rather becoming more in relationship with what a cowboy really means. [00:25:37] Emy Digrappa: It's interesting. it's so fun. The more you do the research and actually talk face to face with people, you realize you're not far apart. [00:25:49] And oh, I just did, a tribute to Alan Simpson. Oh, [00:25:53] Betsy Quammen: yeah. I'm yeah. He, I know that he was so well loved, [00:25:59] Emy Digrappa: and part of it was because he was so witty and funny. [00:26:04] Betsy Quammen: That's what everybody said, that he was hilarious. [00:26:06] Emy Digrappa: Yes. funny, Just tell it like it is. and not everybody's gonna like you and don't worry about it. [00:26:13] he just had that kind of, but he always said that's. That is the spirit of, the American West is our independence. we don't want big government. We wanted, we wanna live free. We want to, we have that kind of attitude. And you'll see that a lot in rural communities. That's why they, love living out. [00:26:39] That's why they don't live in a city. They like having, a small government. They like having a lot of freedom and they don't, they wanna hunt and fish and live off the land. And there, there's such a difference in, the way they live, which is so different than if you go to a city and you live, on Santa Monica Boulevard in California. [00:27:09] Completely different. Yeah. I just think it's interesting how the myth is there, but it is also the misunderstanding. [00:27:17] Betsy Quammen: Yeah. No, and I think that, that's a really good point. I, it's amazing to me how. Invested, the folks that I talked to, how they were invested in their community and, and how, e even one of the things that was really interesting to me in, in Idaho is I was approached by. [00:27:40] Conservative people who wanted to tell me that they were worried about, people moving into their towns with a, unrealistic, expectation that, that they were wanting to take over governments and folks were saying, we're not. We don't want the book bands. We don't want, these were, very conservative people who were worried about actually people from California with, who'd moved in with extreme, ideologies. [00:28:13] And these were people who cared. Of course. So much about their communities and their schools and their kids, and, in one case, their museums. And, there, there was this little town that I visited that had two museums, and they're so devoted of, of course, you think about, and as somebody who again lives in Bozeman and has a certain view of things, These people who want small governments, that doesn't mean that they don't love the arts. you well know that Wyoming humanities is, beloved to people and and so I think it's really important for. Everybody to put their preconceived notions aside and, to go and enter into conversation. [00:29:00] I think that's one of the reasons why we are where we are right now, because we do have preconceived notions and we have to understand, why are folks living in these little rural communities? they're wonderful people are. Excellent neighbors. If you ever need anything, they're gonna drop everything and help you. [00:29:21] they have the biggest hearts of anybody on earth, and, and they are working, on the land. They, they are, the agriculturists. They, are the roughnecks. and, and those put food on people's tables. it's, it is something that, that, I think that when I first moved to Montana, I, or rather Colorado, I really was a conservationist and I wanted to take care of things, and animals and the land. [00:29:53] and it's taken me a long time to, to understand that even sometimes what conservationists would consider, damaging or, extractive practices that have. Some environmental impact that it's really important to understand that these are jobs that are good jobs that take care of families and so when you're talking about, understanding the West, it's really a matter not only of understanding how people see things, it's also examining your own preconceived notions. [00:30:31] Emy Digrappa: That's a good way to put it. Yeah, you have to examine your own pre preconceived notions for sure. So aft, after you wrote, true West, which I loved your book cover, I loved your book. Oh, those [00:30:45] Betsy Quammen: are my dolls. That's what I grew up playing with. Those are my dolls. That is [00:30:52] Emy Digrappa: so [00:30:53] Betsy Quammen: cool. Thank I, I was, I thought, you know what? [00:30:56] I grew up playing with Western, figures and mythology and, cowboys and Indians. that's what I, had horses and I had a wagon and I had, guns, we had little, and holsters and the whole thing. I, was just as enamored with, the I that idea of the West as, as anybody. [00:31:21] that, that's what I grew up playing with Jane and Johnny West dolls. [00:31:26] Emy Digrappa: They are. it reminded me of is Toy Story. [00:31:30] Betsy Quammen: Oh yeah. they're really fun. they, they were my doll. They were my Barbie dolls. [00:31:39] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. That is such a great book. Do you have a book right there that you can hold up? Oh, [00:31:46] Betsy Quammen: let's see if I do, I, oh gosh. [00:31:49] Emy Digrappa: Of course you don't have your own book. [00:31:51] Betsy Quammen: No, I don't have it. Rats. I'm so sorry. That's [00:31:55] Emy Digrappa: okay. I'll definitely, Put a picture of it in the description and in other places so that people can see what we were talking about. [00:32:02] Because it, I, and I do have, the original, toy story doll. Oh, you do? And the one that you pull the string and he doesn't say anything anymore, but he used to. I can't remember what he used to say. Oh my God. I have to think about it. But yeah, I have the original one. [00:32:21] Betsy Quammen: That's so great. How fun. [00:32:23] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. speaking of those were your Barbies. [00:32:26] Oh my gosh. That's so hilarious. But are you working on another book about the book? I am. I am. [00:32:35] Betsy Quammen: Okay, so I am taking a break from, some of the things I, because I have navigated some tricky areas. I have, my first book was on, the Bundys in, in, in the, standoff in Nevada, the takeover of the, Oregon, Refuge, looking at, some of these movements in our country. and then my second book was on Western Mythology and how, we have to be aware of our own perceptions as well as how other people see the West, and live together as a com, series of communities. and then my third book is on. [00:33:19] Ghost stories and how stories get attached to play. So it's a cultural history of ghost stories and, and it's looking at, and I love ghost stories. I am, and I'm, I will admit it, I'm a historian and, I'm also, I also believe in ghosts. I totally believe in ghosts. I've lived in haunted houses. and I am so excited to be doing a book that is going to be looking at. [00:33:46] Why certain ghost stories are attached to place, the history behind them and what it says about people of the past and people right now. And and I also get to write about scary stuff and fun stuff. [00:34:01] Emy Digrappa: Oh my God, there's so many great ghost stories. I believe in ghost stories. [00:34:05] Betsy Quammen: Everybody has ghost stories. [00:34:07] They, it is so fun. they have, we have ghost stories going back since the first writing, on, on, what is it, QIA form? The, Stones Mesopotamian. it's, there have been ghost stories recorded since we could record, so I'm really excited about it. [00:34:24] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh, that is so cool. are you just gonna stay in the Montana area or how far are you gonna spread out? [00:34:31] Betsy Quammen: I'm doing all across the United States. My goodness. [00:34:35] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. there's, some that are written about here in Wyoming. The, in these old hotels. Yeah, these historic hotels. They have ghosts and then there's some that are written about. In these old libraries that were built on top of graves and things. [00:34:59] Oh, [00:34:59] Betsy Quammen: wow. I, read one about the Wort Hotel in Jackson. I think that there's a ghost story there, but you find them everywhere. It's Fun. And, the thing that's, I, write about this too, the ghost stories are, fun, but it's always like a cold spot or, blinking lights or, a shadow or the fun comes and unpacking. [00:35:25] What happened? Why is there a ghost story? what is the history? And that's when it starts to get really, that's when the, ghost story becomes a ton of fun. [00:35:37] Emy Digrappa: Okay. Do [00:35:38] Betsy Quammen: you watch scary movies? Sometimes I get scared, but I assume sometimes. Why? Do you have a recommendation? [00:35:45] Emy Digrappa: No. 'cause I'm a big chicken. no. [00:35:51] Poulter. Geist was probably the scariest. Or the shining. Or the [00:35:57] Betsy Quammen: shining is scary. And I've been to the Stanley Hotel in Colorado and see. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary. But, all my ghosts so far have been Nice ghost. I haven't had any real scary ghosts and I'd rather keep it that way. [00:36:14] I'm hoping that's the way it's for the rest of the research. [00:36:18] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. I, would not be able to sleep if I did, what you're doing. I would not, I would be like, no, I believe in ghosts. I really do. And so I do too. I don't, wanna invite anybody. Home [00:36:36] Betsy Quammen: So far I have had, no, I've had some really, I have some good stories. [00:36:42] I really do, but, but I have, I, so far I haven't had any, sort of phantoms following me. [00:36:51] Emy Digrappa: Okay. So are you at the beginning in your [00:36:54] Betsy Quammen: research. I'm on chapter seven. I'm hoping to have a, I hoping we're still talking about it. 'cause I, it's funny, my, we had some sort of confusion over when the pub publishing date was gonna be. [00:37:08] It might come out next year. so I, but I'm, madly working on it right now. [00:37:14] Emy Digrappa: Okay, cool. I [00:37:16] Betsy Quammen: can't [00:37:16] Emy Digrappa: wait for that one. [00:37:17] Betsy Quammen: Oh, it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun. and, yeah, I, I'm, really excited about this book. [00:37:24] Emy Digrappa: Awesome. That is so great. Betsy, tell, everybody, all the different ways they can find you on social media. [00:37:33] Betsy Quammen: Oh, okay. I'm at, Betsy Gaines Quammen, on Instagram. And I think I'm Betsy Gaines Quammen on Blue Sky. I think I'm Betsy Gaines Quammen on Facebook. I think it's, you can just, and I have a website. okay. [00:37:53] Emy Digrappa: no one has that name.com. No one has that name. That's why you get to still own all your own stuff. [00:38:01] a lot of people have to change all their, They're, names because someone's already taken it. [00:38:08] Betsy Quammen: Yeah, no, I, don't, I haven't met another Betsy Gaines Coleman ever. [00:38:14] Emy Digrappa: Oh my gosh. Could you imagine if you were, like Betsy Smith? Oh my God. You'd be Betsy Smith. Two 20,000? [00:38:23] Betsy Quammen: I would be. [00:38:25] Although there are not a lot of Betsy out there anymore either, Oh, good. Let's do it. [00:38:29] Emy Digrappa: What's the original name, Elizabeth. Okay. So Elizabeth went to Lizzie or Liz or, yeah, Beth. Beth, yeah. But not Betsy. So that's really interesting. [00:38:46] Betsy Quammen: Yeah, Betsy's [00:38:46] Emy Digrappa: more old fashioned, I [00:38:48] Betsy Quammen: think. Yeah, I like it. I think it's fun. [00:38:51] but anyway, yeah, there're not a lot of Betsy and there's not a lot of Betsy Gaines Quammen. [00:38:56] Emy Digrappa: could've been a cowgirl with a name like Betsy. [00:39:00] Betsy Quammen: Yes. See, and I do, I, one of the best things I, I was in, in my first book, I get to go riding. I, when I, did a ton of work in Mongolia, and I had a horse over there. [00:39:11] So I, one of the, my favorite things about cowboys is the riding part. anytime I get to be on a horse, that makes me unbelievably happy. [00:39:22] Emy Digrappa: Yeah. Okay. Oh my gosh. it's been so great talking to you today. It's been so much fun. [00:39:29] Betsy Quammen: Has been great. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. [00:39:33] And this is, yeah, what a pleasure. [00:39:36] Emy Digrappa: Absolutely. Thank you. [00:39:38]