The human factor behind misinformation

Did you ever take banned substances or blood dope ? Yes , sometimes I even believe my own misinformation . I am totally going to reduce my screen time starting on Monday .

This week , on what's Up with the Internet , we're going to talk about this human factor and why so many people believe lies . Why so many people believe lies . I'm your host , Takara Small , and the podcast is brought to you by CIRA , the Canadian Internet Registration Authority , the non-profit building a trusted internet for Canadians . Let's get started .

We have the author , Tim Caulfield , back again . We spoke to Tim on last week's episode's , a professor at the university of Alberta and an expert on myths and disinformation . We asked him to help us with the big

question just why are so many of us vulnerable to this stuff ?

I'm hypersensitive to the reality that misinformation is out there and I've fallen for it . And I've fallen for it in kind of a cliche , classic way . You know , misinformation that played to my preconceived notions , that played to my rage , that kind of played to my tribe , right , I've fallen for it .

And so I think it's really important to recognize that we all can fall for it , so we can bring a little bit of empathy to the table .

The other thing to recognize and this goes to that the political dimension is that does happen across the ideological spectrum and historically , for most of my career actually , the misinformation came more from the left , not from the right , and most of my hate mail used to come from the left and not the right .

So it's a good mail used to come from the left and not the right , so it's good to remind ourselves of that too . Right , context and timing and history it matters . The other thing to remind ourselves of is that vulnerabilities matter , right .

So there's really interesting research that talks about being , you know , economically insecure might make you more vulnerable to misinformation . Mental health challenges might make you more vulnerable to misinformation . Mental health challenges can make you more vulnerable to misinformation .

And yes , of course you know , education , critical thinking skills those kinds of variables matter a whole bunch , a whole bunch too . So all of those things you know combine , I think , to make us all vulnerable . So all of those things you know combine , I think , to make us all vulnerable .

But one of the most important factors we talked about it right off at the top is just how chaotic our information environment is , and I think that's one of the reasons we're all so incredibly vulnerable , because we just can't process absolutely everything .

So it's easy to fall into misinformation traps , it's easy to fall into echo chambers , and so many of us do it . So try to bring to the table scientific humility . I talk about that in the book . I think that's a really important trait . Recognize that . It's okay to change your mind based on the evolution of evidence .

It's okay to change your mind based on the evolution of evidence . It's okay to change your mind when you learn more about a topic . So often in our society that's sort of demonized . It's flip-flopping . You're not staying true to your values . If you change your mind , you're letting your team down .

If you change your mind , you have to jettison , I think , all those attitudes and really we need to embrace the idea that it should be a badge of honor to change your mind if the facts change or if you learn more on a topic .

And in the book I have a list of things I've changed my mind on based to the evolution of facts , and I think that that's a really healthy , healthy position to be in .

I think step one is just recognizing the degree to which our information environment is now , you know , wired to play to those emotions , right ? So I think that that's , I think , step one . There was a . I asked one of my colleagues , kate Starbird .

She's a professor who studies misinformation at the University of Washington in Seattle , and I actually asked her you know , as this renowned expert on fighting misinformation , what advice would you give to the public ? And I kind of thought she'd say well , fact checking , and make sure your critical thinking skills are topped up .

And her response was well , I think the best advice is if it feels like your team just scored a touchdown , that should be a reason to pause , that should be a red

flag . Or if it feels like the other team just scored a touchdown and you feel very angry , that should be a red flag .

And , of course , what she means by that is if the information is playing to your emotions , playing to your political ideology playing to your you know , all of those things that should be a red flag , and I love that , that bit of advice .

The other thing that's even more simple and this is researched by people like Gordon Pennycook and David Rand at MIT , gordon's at Cornell he used to be at University of Regina and we've collaborated with him is this idea of pausing , taking , you know , just a beat and I know that sounds ridiculously simple , but there have been , you know , this is work that's been

replicated by other laboratories and they find , if you just take a moment after you see a headline or something , just pause they call it an accuracy nudge you're less likely to believe misinformation and less likely to spread it . And I think what's going on there is there .

It's inviting you to kind of disconnect from your initial emotional response and kind of turn to your more logical critical thinking tools to evaluate that headline on your phone . I love that advice . It's simple , it's straightforward , it's something we can all do and it might be scalable .

I'm really curious to know how that even happens , just taking into account that people will disregard , perhaps , the views and the support systems and information coming from those they love , those they choose to have in their lives , for sometimes what to me appears to be blatant lies from a celebrity that they don't even know .

But I think she's a good one because , you know , early in her career with Goop , when she became kind of a health influencer , it almost seemed like a noble pursuit . You know Dr Oz too , you know I put him in this same camp . They were , you know , they were inviting us to consider other ways of knowing .

And they were saying look , women have been mistreated by the healthcare system . True , they haven't done enough research on women in the biomedical sphere . Absolutely true . People of colour are disregarded and their problems aren't listened to . Absolutely true .

And so there was almost this entry point for a lot of these influencers that seemed not just benign but almost , as I said , noble . It was a good and that made you the baddie if you were critiquing them . And holy cow , that tolerance for pseudoscience , that tolerance for misinformation , I think has we're unfortunately paying for it now .

Right , and I think that celebrities , and you know , from Dr Oz to Gwyneth Paltrow , to Tom Brady , you know Jessica Alba , I can list , go on and on and on . They help to normalize and legitimize the embrace of misinformation , not just in the health sphere but more broadly right .

So I think that has an anger that an individual is holding on to that can make that voice incredibly powerful in that individual's lives .

Individuals like Joe Rogan have so much sway , or Jordan Peterson , right , they're playing to grievances and we know from research that that can be an incredibly seductive , a very powerful conduit of misinformation and that was tim colfield , who has just published a new book about all the conflicting information we find online , called the certainty illusion what you don't

know and why it matters .

And I think you know , on a simple level , it's because of the response to a need and a belief that people have at that time . And so you're looking at often a transitory period in people's lives where they become more open to certain ideas and subjects where normally they wouldn't , and it also obviously has to do with the times we live in as well .

So , and it's a variety , because for some situations , when you talk about misinformation , uh , the people who may be , you know , pushing out this kind of information obviously don't perceive it as misinformation .

Many of of the groups we deal with , for example , have belief systems or ideas that most people would say is totally erroneous , not factual , not supported by any evidence , but they firmly and truly believe it , which sometimes makes it more easy for them to sell their message to others because they are so sincere and convinced .

Where the reality sometimes , I think , is most people in our society a function between , I would say , the black and whites , with a lot of great uncertainty , not sure ready to question and are open .

And so , when confronted by somebody who appears to seem to know it all and is so sure , often we acquiesce , we , often they well , maybe they're , maybe they're right , maybe I'm wrong , maybe I don't know , and maybe I should like kind of listen more closely to what they're saying .

But , as I said , it kind of falls into where the person or the individual is at in their life kind of situation .

This , yes , would make them more susceptible and more open to buying into sort of ideas and beliefs that they previously would not have , let's say , accepted

or believed . So that's where I would look at it . More is understanding that when you go through kind of a difficult or crisis period in your life , you're more open to what I almost in a simple way , say is the arm around your shoulder saying you know what , don't worry about it , I'll take care of it , I can explain it to you and don't worry .

And I think so . When people are going through very difficult times , the belief that there's something or someone out there that can help them or make sense of what they're going through and help them to resolve it , I think can be quite appealing .

But when you're not going through that kind of difficult period from the outside , you kind of scratch your head and say you know what's going on here .

So therefore you're more open and more willing to make a change and look at things differently . And , as I said , you know , I think it basically from our experience here is we've dealt with people from right across the spectrum and it's usually because there's some kind of issue going on .

It could be more of a part of the background or it can be just at one point there's something that happens which has kind of caused a kind of a critical situation where they tend to be much more open to it . There's , I think , the desire to believe that certain people are immune from , you know , problems or difficulties in life , whatever it may be .

I think is a necessary defense , because if you thought everything that happened around you would affect you , you probably wouldn't walk out the door . So I think there's a need to defend , so that you look at situations like what we're discussing today and say , well , this won't happen to me because I'm too bright , I'm educated , I wouldn't fall for it .

I think the reality is you don't know , and I think the kind of studies and examples that we've had through our experience demonstrates that it can happen to anyone . Anyone can be potentially vulnerable that it can happen to anyone . Anyone can potentially vulnerable .

Certain people , because of certain factors in their lives , can make maybe we can say are more susceptible or more open . But generally I think is the reality is it can affect anyone .

So , yeah , I think that's very important and going through difficult times there's sometimes is often more need to kind of feeling that you belong to something , there is a support system or people who see things the same way as you . Yeah , but those are very strong , I think , emotional components , that needs that people have .

It's very hard , I mean , like anything , you can't generalize and apply it to everyone , but I'd say in a large percentage of the population , the need to believe and belong are very strong emotional pulls that draw you into situations sometimes that are not always , let's say , beneficial for you the hole that's been left by religion in canada and you can argue

overall society .

At the same time as a vacuum occurs , it doesn't necessarily mean it's getting filled by necessarily negative kind of movements or negative organizations .

But I think the reality is , when people turn their back on something and have a distrust or lack of faith in what they grew up with or what they believed in , they become more open to looking around them to see what else is there . And unfortunately there are also movements that will capitalize on that need .

So it is a certain reality , definitely , that the lack or the change in belief leads people to become more open to new adventures , new spiritual experiences , but not necessarily just religious .

A lot of people have found that's a you know kind of home , one would say , in different other kinds of communal organizations and groups , that is spring up and one of the things that you know we'll get to is the fact that people also belonging , almost want to say to movements that exist only online and are not getting together in person with people that they

used to , which is also a dramatic change from basically where we started , when everything was face-to-face kind of , and people were communally living together or spending time together in different environments in different environments .

I mean , do you see that same faith shaken to the core and people seeking out some other resource or faith ?

Obviously , I think there's hardly anybody that would say that we are not going through a very kind of stressful , complex and difficult times .

You know , over the last number of years , you know previous even to COVID , but since , and the increased polarization that is occurring in different societies as well , all play a factor , makes it more difficult for people to kind of feel , kind of feel excuse me people that feel more grounded and feel more anchored to the society and feel more comfortable with

themselves . So there is that kind of like tendency at times like that to look for a solution . You know why am I having such a hard time ? why , you know , like financially , is it so difficult for me ? I need somebody to explain it , and what people tend to at that those times look for

is not complexity . They don't want complexity . You're looking for somebody to tell them what's right , what's wrong , how is it , how am I gonna get you out of this mess ? Or by joining this group or getting involved in this , everything will work out .

It's kind of like the the need to believe in kind of almost a miracle solution to difficult times and problems . I mean , I mentioned this and it kind of an example comes to mind . It was somebody who I know years ago who was a very skeptical kind of person about all kind of like different kind of faith , healings et cetera and miracle cures .

But he ended up having heart problems and the doctors were telling me he would require heart surgery and he told me at that time he ended up going to a session being offered here somewhere in Montreal about somebody who could deal with health problems without surgery and he told me about this experience and he said you know what ?

That was the first time I could really really personally relate to the kind of work you're doing , mike , because it was appealing to want to believe that I could actually do something like that and be healed .

Anyway , he ended up doing a surgery and he's okay , but I think it kind of symbolized for me that kind of reality is like when you're going through that kind of difficult time , sometimes you want to believe that there's something out there that will offer you that kind of magical solution or a simple formula or recipe that will take care of what you're going

through .

You know , especially if you're surrounded by people who kind of believe the same thing , you're less likely over time to maybe question or doubt it and say , well , maybe I'm wrong , maybe these people are all right , since you're kind of being bombarded constantly with the same message .

And so that's where it becomes very difficult , you know , for people to step outside and say you know what , make a concentrated effort to seek out other points of view and other kind of positions , which doesn't often happen . That's like what happens these days is most people .

What they do is they end up going on the internet , and once you go on the internet and you start Googling a certain kind of question or concern , you end up going down what people have described as that rabbit hole of constantly finding things that confirm or reinforce what you already kind of believe or what others around you are already been saying is the truth

, which you know , as your question arises , how people end up buying into the lie .

He's a no good kind of guy and I expect you to say , oh me , mike , you're right , I'm leaving him tomorrow and I'll go look for another boyfriend Never going to happen tomorrow and I'll go look for another boyfriend never gonna happen . Because people kind of get involved , because it responds on an emotional level .

You know , most people from the outside look at and say , well , this is not logical , this doesn't make any sense . But emotionally it appeals to people and it's kind of almost you kind of love becomes blind .

And so you fall into this and you get involved emotionally and obviously in some movements where there's this kind of split between we're the good guys and everybody on the outside is bad and evil and basically out to get you .

That creates the sense of sometimes the fear of the other and the fear of those outside who have a different perspective or point of view . So when you come to a degree you you know of coming to believe , like the example of the love relationship .

You know you're going to defend what you're doing and also be very reluctant , and you know to contain or to maintain or continue , necessarily , a relationship with other people .

At the same time , when you get into certain situations or environments , you know , you come to believe that you have found the truth , example being during the COVID , you had a lot of people , not just during COVID but also today , who bought into different theories and ideas but ended up feeling that they found the truth .

Everyone on the outside was either brainwashed or bought into the system and followed media etc . But they had found the truth and so there's a sense of for sure , a lot of power and also , as one would say , to a certain degree , a certain happiness of having discovered something unique and other people were not aware of .

So gave them a certain sense of power and in certain movements and belief systems .

I think it's important to recognize that that sense of power , for people who don't necessarily feel they have much power in their everyday lives , is something which is very strong and is something that motivates them to continue and also can generate a lot of anger against those who necessarily oppose .

Because the general reaction you know know , when people get involved in certain systems or movements which others don't like is they will react logically or factually or kind of confront the individual , which also generates anger in the individual at the same time , which will also lead to often a breakdown in communications with people who are close around them .

Some systems you know that deal with , especially during the COVID period , pretty simply encourage people just to cut off contact with all people who did not believe or think like them .

one of the things that we should be teaching more of is critical thinking and giving people access to how to figure out , how to assess information from various sources , to questions to ask . Those are always things that I would agree with . But fundamentally , the question if you have problems that exist in a society , where are they coming from ?

If the problem is that people feel disaffected or disconnected from mainline structures and societies that exist and that could be political , religious , you know , mental health , medical , etc . Then the question is how do you return ? You know that kind of how do you rebuild confidence for people in the society they live in ? Not easy questions .

I don't have an easy answer how to do that , but I think it's part of is recognizing that if people don't trust , for example , you're more comfortable with hearing . You know this person is going to give you what you want , even though maybe it's never going to happen .

So but ultimately I say , how do you get to the root kind of causes you know that's a much more difficult process , you know . I mean education is helpful . How do you provide services when I think people are running into difficulties and problem ?

Yes , these are all questions I think most people might agree with , but at the same time , is this question is going to be who's going to pay for it and who's going to do it ?

And when it comes down to questions of who's going to pay , there seems to very , very little money around to really kind of deal with this , because some of it as mentioning when you're looking at societal issues are not something that gets resolved bang , bang , bang .

You know , and you know how long is going to take to get people's confidence back in structures and societies that we've built up over . You know , decades and generations ? I don't know . I decades and generations ? I don't know . I don't think it's an easy task .

It's not necessarily a task we shouldn't undertake , but I think it's something that has to be seen as difficult but necessary .

I mean , I'm always hesitant when it comes to questions of making laws , because the question is how much do you really know about the issue you want to make a law about ?

And then , once you have the law , is it really going to be effective in dealing with the problem or is it just kind of , let's say , you know making , you know dressing , you know giving a nice dressing to a subject but really doesn't have much kind of , let's say , beef or meat behind it ?

I think part of it , a minimum , is recognizing , I think as a part of government , that people are harmed by whether you want to call it misinformation , disinformation . You know radicalization , extremist groups . You know extreme religious or high-control movements or organizations in our society .

There are families and individuals that are harmed , that need help , and part of it is at least you don't have to get into a discussion , do you agree , disagree with X or Y perspective on an issue , but recognize and I think most people will is that , no matter what the group or society , some people are harmed in these kind of movements and groups and in some

groups and movements more people are harmed than in others and what they can do is provide more services to people .

When that happens , it's the same time is , of course , trying to address you know how to deal with this kind of an issue in a comprehensive way , Because it means to me bringing together people from different kind of spectrums and different kind of sectors , rather , of society and looking at okay , what is the problem here ?

There's a lot of research going on dealing with radicalization , misinformation , disinformation . The question is how do you develop a policy to effectively deal with these kind of concerns ? And I think you start that process by bringing actors from different sectors together and seeing what you can come up with .

But at the same time , like I say , because of where we work , I would say , at least at the the minimum , recognize people are harmed and that more services should be offered to these people , whether it be former members or families going through , you know , distress at difficult times because of someone they care about . You know .

The issue is trying to , like I mentioned a while ago , is how do you see the world through the eyes of the individual , so that if you have an idea of who they are , where they're coming from , what the needs potentially are for them believing in this , it may be a better approach to look at it and approach it on an emotional level and basically , if you're

concerned , expressing your concern without getting into factual , saying look , I'm really concerned , I don't understand , especially if there's been a dramatic change in their personality and their beliefs . I don't understand the process , what's happened and how you got involved . Can you explain it to me ?

Explaining and wanting to understand does not mean that you buying into it . I am understand because I care about you . You know , ultimately it's not important . Well , excuse me , not a question of how important . It's not whether or not I believe or don't believe what you're saying , because it's not me that's going to be living with your decisions .

I'm trying to understand more what happened and the process that you've gone through , and so you want , you want to . You know , what I'm saying here is you want to keep it more on an emotional level and reconnect . We feel and obviously every person has to make their own decision is maintaining communication and trying to improve .

It is very important Because without any contact or communication , you have no idea what's going on with the person . I say it's up to each individual or family member to decide because you know any advice you get and people often , when they call us , have gotten all kinds of different advice from different people we mentioned .

Look , whatever decision you make in terms of how you want to proceed , recognize that those who give you advice , the same way as the person you care about , who's getting advice or suggestions from others though they're not the ones are going to be living with your decision . So if you want to do something , you have to look at the approach you're taking .

Does it make sense and can you put it into practice ? And some people you know don't want to do this . Yeah , I mean , it's our approaches . I think trying to understand not necessarily , it's not a question approach is , I think trying to understand not necessarily it's not a question , do you agree or disagree ?

But trying to understand what someone's going through and then looking at , how do you maintain that communication and contact with the individual and hopefully , you know , raising questions which may elicit , you know it's kind of a reflection on their part .

I think you also want to recognize that you know better off from a strategy point of view is like what are you hoping to achieve ? Is it feasible ? And if it's feasible , what are the pros and cons of the approaches you're going to take ?

And look more closely at the cons of what you're planning , because if things work out the way you want , you're always happy . If they don't , can you live with the cons of what you're planning ? Because if things work out the way you want , you're always happy . If they don't , can you live with the consequences of having something happen ?

You know , and you know that's why you look at it from that perspective . But part of it is also recognizing that people are different , so what brought them into a situation can vary from individual to individual . There may be a background I need to believe you know .

So these are a lot of factors , but ultimately it's not confronting the individual , because that pretty much doesn't work and often will reinforce their conviction and belief , because if I believe that I have the right information and you're the ones with the false information , well you know I may cut off from you . So that's what you want to kind of avoid .

But , as I said , you have to feel comfortable with that approach and obviously each family you know is different . There's a lot of other factors that I deal with when I get into situations with families , but usually don't attack the individual , don't attack if they're involved in a group . Don't attack the group .

If there's a leader , do not attack the leader of the group either . These are generally situations which will indirectly reinforce their belief and faith and possibly decrease the kind of contact and create walls between you and the person , walls which make it different to communicate and keep in touch .

Next week on episode four . We want to help you guard against falling for any misinformation yourself .