¶ Podcast Intro & Guest Preview
Right a song, ride a song.
Hello everyone. Welcome to the What's in a Song podcast. I'm your host, Scarlett Keyes. I wanna start by giving a shout out to one of our listeners, Jim Keddy, for recently buying us several cups of coffee on Buy Me a Coffee.
Thank you so much, Jim, and for your note. It really makes my day when I hear from you guys and find out what you're loving about the podcast, what you're learning, because my goal for this podcast is to have listeners walk away inspired and to learn something from each episode that they can apply to their writing and they can improve as a writer.
So with each guest, I'm there looking for clues in the greatness, shift you know, sifting through their greatness, looking for clues on how they are writing such great songs so we can figure it out and I can share it with you. So I love to hear from you. And if you would like to support this commercial free podcast, go to scarletkeys.com and you can click on, scroll down and click down on buy me a coffee and feel free to Buy us a month's worth of coffee or just an extra large latte.
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or as I like to call it, I still call it swag. There's a link to join in the show notes or again you can go to scarletkeys dot com and join the membership. While you're there, sign up for the mailing list'cause I would love to keep you Updated on upcoming guests and events, and please, please follow me on Instagram at Scarlet Keys Official. I do want to say. that you might be hearing some very s faint little meows and that is because we are fostering nine kittens right now. Yeah.
There's just no way to get them to be quiet, so we're just gonna enjoy what they are adding to this today. All right, today I have Chicago based singer, songwriter, Michael McDormitt on the show. We're gonna talk about his two albums. He's releasing two albums on September thirteenth, next Friday. He is going to be releasing Lighthouse on the Shore and East East. One of his records is acoustic and the other is electric and they are both really good.
When Michael sings I I feel like it's aged whiskey and I hear the echoes of his influence. From early Dylan, Woody Guthrie, Odetta, traditional Irish music, Tom Waits, The Rolling Stones, Van Morrison, and you two. You can literally hear those influences when you listen to him sing. And so often as songwriters we lean on topics such as love or heartbreak as our themes. But these records are full of wisdom and vantage points that only Somebody as seasoned by music and life could write. I love
the writing on these records because the topics are so different. You know, Michael is sober and in recovery and his songs are about life and struggle and redemption and questioning. And I found these lyrics to be so refreshing and inspiring and Philosophical. He has a stellar group of musicians on these records. He plays guitar, piano, bass, and he's on vocals, and then Heather Lynn Horton on fiddle and vocals, Matt Thompson on stand-up and electric bass.
Will Kimbrough on guitars, banjo. So Michael McDormott explores deep and resonant emotions with gentle melancholy and open hearted honesty. We're gonna talk about a song titled I Am Not My Father. And he says we are all our parents' children, whether we like it or not. Coming to grips with that truth is at the core of this mid tempo ballad. He also has a song titled Gonna Rise Up, A Rave Up About Survival and Sobriety.
And Lighthouse on the Shore, the album's gorgeous centerpiece, a picturesque poetic confession to a love that provides the beacon for life's journey.
¶ Michael's Musical Journey Begins
All right, here is my conversation with Michael McDormott. Hello, Michael. Welcome.
Hi, how's it going? Is your name really Scarlet Keys?
Yes.
Is it really that's just I mean You could not no, it's not. Like it's see it's too good to be true.
It it was a little contrived because my dad loved Gone with the Wind and his last name was Keys. I mean it really it's a it's like a Scottish name. Oh really?
Oh yeah. No, I know Francis Scott Keith. Um yeah, I have an alias Johnny Darkstar. Now that's made up. Uh and but that's awesome too. I mean, you know, is Darkstar really your last name? Yes, it is. Um good to meet you.
It's really nice to meet you and um wow. So okay, so we have a lot to talk about because you've got a lot of music coming out. And um, you know, for For your fans that are listening, you know, they may not know kind of your story of origin, not to go back too far. Um but it is so interesting to kind of hear what sparked music for people and what what brought them to this moment and also for your new fans. So I'd love to have you just start in with your story.
Okay. Um so grew up in a Irish Catholic South Side of Chicago family. You know, there was some music around the house, not a ton, um It was back in the day when, you know, the parents kind of dictated the car radio or the tapes, you know. And so they, you know, it was.
I don't know, they ha you know, they had a wide var range of of stuff to listen to. But nothing really nothing really ignited me. I played violin in the third grade, trumpet then, uh that was kinda it. But then Uh in eighth grade I saw the Rolling Stones on the tattoo you were t tattoo you tour. You know, with Start Me Up was the big single and that was kind of it for me. That um that was my moment of, you know, uh the light bulb.
And so anyway, so I was just, you know, after that, I was pretty much just, you know, wanted to be Keith Richards without the drug addiction, but we'll talk about that later. Um and uh and then but so then what changed as a s as a songwriter for me was You know, I joke about my parents, you know, back in, you know, we were in in the summers of even through high school, my parents would take my sister and I up to a house in Michigan and leave us there for the summer.
Now, you know, if you did that today, you'd you have the DCFS called and and you'd probably be in jail. But um so I was driving at 13 and working washing dishes and all that, and there was a local band in this tiny little town. called Casopolis, Michigan. And so I would just go watch them play and
The the singer of the band w I would just follow him around. They were all older than me. They went to they were going to University of Michigan and um So in the so I just learned all about music from this the singer, Tom, and uh but one day I heard the song The River by Bruce Spring. And that for me opened up a door in i in my own brain, really, um, of of o of a different world uh that I would have been exposed to. You know, the Stones thing was kind of scary. Uh
for a suburban uh kid, you know, they had a they had there was an edge that uh was dangerous, which I liked. And uh but then hearing what a song could do with a story. Um It was amazing. And uh also thinking about just now, my parents would play these National Geographic things. There was a uh uh a store the story of Daniel Boone where it was music. It was like musicals, I guess, and and it and uh but it would be all through the story of
The Cumberland Gap uh was done through songs. So I mean I think and and being um in an Irish family, stories are important. Um so anyway, so that was kind of a change in my uh appro like I was less interested in the stones actually. and uh became more interested in what um songs could communicate. And um
And and that was kind of it for me. So then, you know, I finished out my high school uh back here in Chicago and then I didn't know what to do. And I went into the um I got my own apartment and I f I was playing with this guy who played Irish folk music. And they were all songs that were
So old no one know knew who wrote them. You know, they were all trad songs. And uh and that was really a great education for me. That was like my college, you know, um these beautiful stories, just you know, terribly tragic. always involved war, murder, amputation, and whiskey. You know, it was y you know, some kind of combination of of the four. And um And yeah, so that was it. That's kind of like how it all then started and and solidified my idea of what I wanted to do uh with my life.
And um and that was it. And that was that was the kind of the beginning of then my not really professional career, but that's I'll stop there. But that's where it ended right before I think.
I love that you said that you come from that Irish background where storytelling was so important. And one of the things that I really appreciated about your songwriting is your storytelling. Like really And to me, I'm hearing so many wonderful influences like
you know, Bruce Springsteen and even John Mellencamp. I don't know if he was in your repertoire, but I'm kind of hearing that. And uh So you have these two new albums that you're dropping on the same day, which are coming out very soon, and they're very vastly different and when I listened to your songs bef before I got a little preview of the album and I was listening and I thought, man, this guy's in recovery. Did you take any voice lessons? Or this just all sort of
No no.
No.
I had um I took a finger picking uh class at the old town school of folk music in Chicago, but um that was my only Education with it.
You've just always been that singer.
So I was a terrible singer, you know, and I tell my daughter this, uh, and she's great and she's 14, but I said, you know, I was awful. For years, it could barely stay in tune. And when I got Yeah, no, for real. And and it was just so I wanted to be a guitar player, I wanted to be Keith Richards.
singers would never show up to rehearsal in my high school and then I would just say, Okay, Tim's not here. I'll just I'll just sing and then we'll just get through the song. And that was kind of how it happened. And then And then of course, you know, the discovery of Bob Dylan, I thought, well, I could do this. Dylan was a great singer, I think, when he was young.
I think he could really sing. He was great. And in the through the seventies he was great, I thought. Uh, but the you know, now I don't know what he's doing, but um but um yeah, it was just in in literally I tell my daughter this is like You know, I don't know if I believe in Talent's a funny thing, you know.
I don't
I think I just outworked it. I do and that's I do believe that I wasn't one I knew I know people that can play any instrument, sit down at a piano and who are guitar players and play better. You know, like I just out I just worked just so hard at just getting a thing I could do and then you know do that.
You really know your voice. It's it's so emotive and Full of texture, dead.
Great. Oh, thank you. And I think it is important to listen to yourself. My daughter hates listening to herself and I get that too, but like it's you'd never learn if you don't listen, you know? Right. I mean that's where you learn everything in life is by listening. You know, uh what do they say? You can't learn anything while your mouth is moving, you know. So you learn by listening. So uh that's the important thing is like tape it, listen back. Now with the phones, you can do that.
It's real easy. Back then it was the You know, the boom box with the cassette and the whole thing, you know.
¶ Releasing Two Distinct Albums
Let's jump into your your two albums that you're dropping. It's you're like Taylor Swift here with all the music and you've got two different um soundscapes. Depending on who's listening. So you've got Lighthouse on the Shore. Yeah. And you have East G. And one is acoustic and one's electric. Yeah. Talk about it.
I just you know, for you know, so I've been making records now thirty years and I think that it was just You know, you do there's it becomes formulaic where you do two rock songs, you just start the album big and yeah. Another big one and then you bring it down and then you build it back up and then you bring it down again. And I just thought, man, you know, cause then uh
You know, I I felt it it was very uh confining to me. So I just thought, you know, two albums is, you know, in the age of the goldfish attention span. The idea of doing two records is not, you know, bright, but uh I thought why not? You know, like um it's not like anyone's gonna sit and listen to a whole album. Really. I mean it's hard. You know, no one, you know, it's hard to find the time. So uh I just thought why not lean into making a quiet quieter record and just
and and lean into that pitch and then go make your rock record, you know. Um and uh so yeah, I I um it's funny. I think so far Light Lighthouse, the quiet record has gotten much more you know, feedback'cause it's being played in Europe and uh and a l more songs from that than the very expensive record. You know, it's just funny. You know, I have a relationship I think with writing songs. that I f feel is uh
It is a relationship, so it's private. There are things I'm private about. If you were to tell me what goes on in the bedroom of your lover, like it'd be like, Oh T M R you know, but uh you know, uh but uh so I feel that way. I don't
¶ "East Jesus": A Personal Recovery Song
There are things I I don't think about. I feel like it's almost taboo to think about in my own head, like, but anyway, East Jesus. So my daughter, we you have a d 16 year old. It's hard. for kids these days. And uh So, you know, you struggle with them and the pain hurts you and the isolation and the fucking phone and uh all the you know so she had some friends over, which we were very happy. There was a lot of laughing and screaming and I didn't know what to do.
'Cause you know, it was just I don't know, you know, it's a bunch of girls and my wife's got it and uh so I came out to this room, this is my studio. And I came out here and I took maybe four steps into the room and I just started bawling and like ugly cry and I went down to my knees and I was heaving and I didn't know w
What's going on? This is out of nowhere. Oh wow. This is a moment I should be so happy. It's like an idyllic moment for my daughter. And and and I didn't know why I was just crippled. And I said in my own head, I said. The greatest mistake a man can make is thinking that the war's over. And I didn't even know what that meant. But in my blubbering, I may have even said out loud. I gotta write that down.
And so I crawled over. I didn't want to forget it. I didn't know what it meant. And so I I just wrote it down. And I think what I and I'm it's like, you know, reverse engineering of why that moment happened. And I think
Yeah.
that in even in the happiness of it all, like my life, me, I have an in a certain in I'm a cer a little bit incapable of experiencing experiencing joy.
And it's because of my all the years of abuse and uh I thought, you know, and then as the song kind of got flushed out It's like, you know, everybody asks me how I'm doing, and I go, I'm doing good, and I'm funny, and I laugh and I'll make people laugh, but really inside, you know, it's those it's the uh the closet under the stairs that we all do this, all put away those little things, those Those things we don't wanna hug the cactus and put it away.
And uh and that was my East Jesus. Everyone's in my head again, this is reverse engineering, but that's what we do. We bury these things and they manifest and they come out whether you want them to or not in all weird moments. And I didn't know and it just made me so sad that I couldn't even be happy for her, you know. And um so that's a recovery song, even though I i in the song I don't actually speak of any
Anything like that. But that's all because the war's never over for me. It's every day. Every day. Every single day is like is this thing. Don't do it. Don't do it, man. Um so that's it. You know, that's so that's a recovery song without being a recovery song. And I because I don't wanna I don't want ever wanna make person make it so personal that, you know, like I sometimes joke uh on stage like, so when I say whorehouse
Think of your cubicle at work. When I say your boss, you know, like you know, just like'cause it's it's I don't want to make it s that it can't people can't relate to it, you know. So I but we all we're all in the spectrum of addiction, that's for sure. Uh whether it's your work or your social media or your phone or food or sex or whatever, codependency. So addiction's my we are.
You know, and uh so that's uh that's kind of at least for the last few records of where I've kind of been. And it's been nice, but I think, you know, I'm I've kind of almost getting to the point where I've said all I can say about it.
¶ "I Am Not My Father" & Repetition
Uh okay, I have to say I was so I was so moved by so many of the songs. One of the things I loved about I Am Not My Father, other than the fact that it was such a good song, is it's an example of um You know, obviously it it would hit a chord with so many people'cause they we don't want to be our parents, especially if our if our parents weren't were in trauma. And um, but the the just the simple repetition of that chorus is so that is something that gets lost sometimes in songwriting. Um
But it harkens to like born in the USA. I was born in the USA or Your Body is a Wonderland. Your body is a wonderland. It's something that don't stand so close to me. Don't stand so close to me. Those songs that just do that great pop thing where it's like,
just gonna repeat that idea so you can sing with us and be here in the chorus with that. Right. So that is something that I really, really loved about that song. And I'd love to just play um a little teaser of that just through that first chorus so we can just have the listener lean into that. Okay. So I'm going to go ahead and just play that much of the song.
🎵 Music
¶ Crafting Anthemic Choruses
That's a former guest of yours playing all those beautiful guitars, Will Kimbrough.
Yeah. So that makes a lot of sense. The the music, the tracks are absolutely fantastic. But you know, just going back to that. simplicity and the power of sort of an an an anthem in a way. And so Just for anyone listening, I really encourage you at some point in your life to write a chorus Maybe with a repeated three lines. Maybe four if you change it in some way. But as you segue into that next section, I think you also had a two major chord. Is that right?
Love that you just brought in one outside core to just like bring it up for a moment and then bring it back down.
'Cause I you know, I I overuse the G C D E minor th you know, like to to ad nauseum. But um so yeah, so anything you could do to make it like and it those are the You know, even if people that aren't musical cling to those things, they go, the ear goes that.
Yeah.
favorite part and they're not mu musicians. A thing too about the repetitiveness, like there it's a mantra really. And for you know us as a species saying the, you know, a chant Uh, it gets more powerful to me live by the time that songs towards the end when I keep saying it, it's hard for me to even get it out. It just becomes more powerful, literally each time I sing it. It's like harder and harder to say. Um
Because, you know, we all have these inner inner voices and you know, it's like the mo you start to believe it and uh and people will believe it too if you just lean into it. You know, I hate being repetitive in songs, but man. It whatever it is, that's that's the power of it.
And also just the the the prosody, which is a word we like to throw around, but the prosody of that repetition is like you say it. And then you say it again. It's almost like you're trying to convince yourself because you're saying it again and again. Yes. Um, which is also really powerful too. So You know, and as I look at the list of the songs coming out this month.
Mm.
¶ "Where God Never Goes": Spiritual Exploration
Um you got nothing changes. You have a song called God Damn It Lovely, which is great. And then you have um you have Gonna Rise Up, which you know, I love that the mixture of that and how that feels um inspirational but hard. And you have Gr Grateful, Count Your Blessings, Lighthouse on the Shore, and Where God Never Goes. And that title Really made me curious. And I r I really wanna play this entire song if that's okay. Can I play that and then maybe have you talk about it after?
I'd love to.
Yeah. All right, let's listen to that.
🎵 Music
That's a special one.
Thank you.
And it's so original. It's such a great idea. And you just had so many lyrics. you know there's so there's so many trite ways to say like how do you say your inner light will guide or the your inner or your heart and you manage to find it with let your inner moonlight
Yeah.
Let your inner moonlight. And I loved that section. Um, when it gets too dark to see, don't let the darkness blind you. Yeah.
Yeah, thank you. Well, so I mean that's um I mean my story of uh the long years of abuse, like I've I've said and I've uh said many times that You know, I was a um you know.
When I was a kid I was deeply uh you know, I'd go to morning mass You know, those those days are gone from me, however, but When you you know, my joke is like I'd say on stage, you know, crack houses aren't all And uh, you know, that I the most intense, enlightening spiritual conversations I've had are an usual drug drug death. And y and and you know, there there's an old adage that says, Show me a man knocking on the door of a whorehouse and I'll show you a man looking for God.
Is that in a l Wait, is that in a lyric somewhere?
No, no, okay.
Please, please f please put that in a song.
You know, you know, and my music is, you know, interpreted oftentimes as religious that anywhere I go in the world, people always, you know, whether it's small towns in Sweden or whatever, you know, people always want it's like we gotta show you the church. I've seen more churches.
Then I have bars, which is hard to believe. But I mean, you know, people want So anyway, but I've been to plenty of whole supposedly holy places where there and I've been to masses all over the place and in Rome and everything, and I've haven't felt a goddamn thing. You know, so you could be in a crackhouse and feel real spirit, and you could be in this this holy place and feel And that's kind of what it i what it was for me. And uh
you know, just trying to talk about that is like, you know, when you see, you know, also the religious movement in this country is just so embarrassing. And um so it you know, I d you know, Jesus would give us what for if he came back, I tell you that. And uh So um anyway, that's that's kind of the song encapsulated.
¶ Songwriting Work Ethic & Process
You know, the the melody that you chose um for that song is so gorgeous and it grabs you from that first piano, doesn't it? Um again an example of really being cognizant of the note between the notes.
Right.
expected, you're playing notes that aren't stable in the key. And it really matches the song so well melodically. If you're in a major key, instead of playing the first note, the third note or the fifth note, try the two, the four, The sixth and especially the seventh
Absolutely. Life isn't stable like our music should be either. You know, like and sh the the payoff's great and landing state with stability is wonderful. Uh but the it's those other the ugliness and of course dissonance. overused could be terrible. But um but yeah, just uh finding the right thing. I uh that song kind of reminds me of it sound sounds kind of very Irishy to me, but uh which is um uh which is
You know, those beautiful, but just so simple. And uh there's a song called Behind the Eight. And and what I would tell anybody that wants to uh aspiring or working songwriter is maybe it's a south side Irish thing, but it's I'm workman like. I come into this studio and sit down, whether I have anything to offer or nothing, and I just sit here and do the work and I stare at the page.
fight through it and I punch through it. And and so behind the eight was a song. It was a completely different song. It was kind of like a relationship song at one point. Then it was like a uh song at some point. And then so I had at some point I had eighty six verses for that song. Eighty six. And I didn't use any of'em. There's um Uh so um so yes, and uh and it became something completely different. So I would just say work it you know, just to
Be continue always be working, you know, like the Glengarry Glen Glenn Ross thing, always be closing, but always be working. And then and and usually what I found, which is the gi the gift within the gift, is when you have a song.
Usually you'll write a verse that you go, Oh, that's great. Not this song. And then you put it aside. Now you just have another song to work on when you're done with this one. You know, it's like there there's little tentacles that reach out and all songs are connected, you know, and and they just kind of
feeding and growing and then then you work on the second song and then you write a chorus. That's great. Not for that song. Now you have a third song. It's just kind of, you know, the work will reward you will it'll reward you if you feed it. It's a garden. That's all it is.
So you show up whether or not you're inspired.
Yeah, absolutely. Usually when I'm inspired, that first verse never even gets used. When I think it's oh, this is great, I gotta write that down. Usually that rarely make So then better things better things come.
So how to talk a little bit about how that song we just listened to came to be.
That I don't even remember that one. Uh it was uh I oh I had the Christian as an atheist. That's what I had for a little while. I had that, mmm, I like that. And that was something that I thought, where so what?
What is does he rob a bank? I don't know. What does Rob Christian do? Like, oh, he's a soldier and he's seen, you know, like you know, so those that was a slow one. When I was younger, I wrote very fast and I would it was like homework if I had to work on something for more than a day or two. I became a a chore and like uh You know, but now I I love it.
And uh I take my time. And older, you know. So uh I think when you're young, you just you're firing, your synapses are firing so fast that it's hard to even keep up. Now, and I've written so many songs over the years. That it's hard, you know, I let it I I let it breathe a little bit and go, Oh you know what that That's that song from nineteen ninety eight I wrote. Yep. Okay. So that's that. I've done that.
How can I think you know, and then so just um st I think uh I don't know. I I love songs that come quick that you don't even know where they come from. That's why I think there's um there's a there's a sacredness uh to some of
You know, and we all you've heard other people say it. You've you've felt it, I'm sure. But you know where you go, oh my god, that was just so effortless. Where I don't it was almost like pre-written and there it is. And those are fine, but um I uh I take a lot of pleasure in the in the
And the...
The sweat of it, you know.
Yeah, it is nice when something kind of magical falls.
That's just awesome, but they it's so rare, you know.
¶ "Head Full of Rain": Simple Yet Profound
Well so let's go. We have to switch gears. We have to play something off the other. East Jesus.
Well, you know, uh a head full of rain is a mantra-e kind of thing, you know. Um it's just saying it over and like it's just and and when we play it live, I literally could play it for eight minutes. And it just kind of keeps going. Not musically very linear. Nothing really changes, but it's it gets into your head kind of, you know.
Should we try it? Should we play that one? Headfull rain? Let's try it. Okay, let's do it.
🎵 Music
It's not uh deep at all. You know, it's just a it's a thing, you know, it's just one of those little Yeah.
Sh actually, you know, you say that, but musically there's so much depth to the music. And your voice, the wisdom in your voice and also just how philosophical it is. And, you know, people are just kind of jamming to this and they need to hear something simple, like the storm is gonna pass or the storm doesn't last or you know, it's
Simplicity is there for a reason. And if we get too far away from it, I think it can really get in our way as writers. I think simple can be powerful. And Takes a lot of risk takes a lot of restraint to be simple.
¶ Embracing Simplicity and Perspective
Absolutely. So I here's a story. So when I was on uh EMI in the mid to late nineties. Uh Brian Coppelman, my A and R guy, came called me. I was living in New York and he said, Come on into the office today. I thought I was getting you know, like scop the principal called you to the office and I went there and I sat on the other side of his desk and uh so he played like
Yeah, I was like, What's up? And he was like, I just want to lean back and he put on like Running with the Devil by Van Halen or something. So we listened to it and I was like, mm-hmm. And then he put on some I don't know what else. Another uh, you know, like uh Panama or whatever. Like, I don't know, I'm going Ben Halen. But there were like three songs and I finally said dude, what's up? Like, you know, and he's like, Just wanna tell ya. It doesn't all happen.
And I was like
Got got it. You know, like and it's it I needed to hear that, you know, like'cause it is. I get you get very I get very caught up in my own dramas and we all do, I guess. And uh but yeah, so it doesn't have to be all serious, you know, and and and but For me, those are harder songs to write, you know, like the the study everyday thing.
What I was thinking about was like I'm not a good flyer and and I hate flying and it every time I go to the airport and as things have been going better for me, I fly more and I hate it. And uh always see you know, Chicago weather seems to be the worst when I'm going to O'Hara and But you know, there's that time you're going through the clouds and the metal straining and
uh moaning and wheels are getting lifted and you know, you're dropping a bit and you're looking around to see if anybody else is panicked. And then there's my favorite pipe part of every flight is there's that moment where it almost sounds like the engines turn off and you go,
And you're through the clouds and then it's like Yeah. It's beautiful up here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and our brains are like that. You know, we get all like in you know, I do transcendal medit meditation. So, you know, they there's a lot of meditations that te teach you how to
navigate the surface of the ocean, you know. But really it's down below where the sh the ships are sunk, is where it's quiet and rare life form is and it's quiet and cold. And that's what tr TM tries to do. You try to meditate beneath
things, you know, and uh because the surface is always up here, all the high noise frequency stuff in your light, your monkey brain and all that. Um so yeah, so it was just like, oh, I could turn this into some kind of like, you know, that it's that we all have access to the b to the blue sky is just it's not always, you know, we our own bullshit.
I didn't find um your your song at all to be simplistic. I found it to be simple, which is a very different category, right? Um and it was really I think it's interesting to you know how lofty we can get as writers. Like, oh, this I'm writing in Lydian and w and what rhymes with
you know, cloud puffs of hope, you know. Um, and really when you catch yourself when you catch yourself at midnight vacuuming, what are you listening to? And that is your guilty pleasure. And that's really who you are. And
Right.
So we if we can gather like remember who we are as an audience, I think it can help us think about wait, this isn't me to to prove how Great. I can be. This is just about what am I really offering my crowd here? So what I love about that is it's just such a jam and I love the track. I'm gonna be listening to this song. I really love this song. Thank you. I think it's I think it's like a deep, hopeful song and it's hard to capture and write a song about hope without Yeah.
Right.
Believe me, I've been trying. Um, so the other thing I want to say about this record is that you know, sometimes music. it makes us dance and sometimes music makes us run the extra mile and sometimes music lets us cry and sometimes music is is a great distraction. Like, ah, I get to I get to escape. But your songs I feel are such a beautiful musical escape, but also it's like full of philosophy.
And like the best f like I feel like people could go here like to heal things and to learn things about life. And I think that's a pretty special mix.
Gee, thank you. Yeah, thank you for that.
What we could do is ask people to go ahead and pr and uh pre-save both records because these are two records you should listen to all the way through. They're just thought provoking, poignant, and spiritual and beautiful. So um if you will go to the show notes, you can find a way to click on Michael McDormott's um Pre save for Spotify. and get the record. And so we'll do that because it's dropping on September thirteenth. It's coming out. So pre save because that's going to help his analytics.
That's gonna help the records. So if you do that, that's an actual thank you to the podcast and thank you to Michael for writing this beautiful record, uh, two records actually for both the records. So do that as a thank you for his time today. and what he shared with us and um just pre-save right now. Just click on it, send the show notes and then we can get the whole record on September thirteenth. And is there anything you'd like to say, share, or anything I didn't Touch it.
¶ John Mayer's Bold Songwriting
Yeah one thing that um'cause I don't talk about songwriting'cause it's like for me it's a thing I don't do really. Like but um it's now you got me there's probably a million things I'm gonna have, but it's you had said something like remember that you're the audience that you want to play for. What was something to that effect?
Uh, but you had mentioned John Mayer before and I remember back in the ninet or whatever his record maybe early two thousand, but he had written some line, and I'm trying to remember what it was. But I thought I'd made I remember it was so easy to make fun of him then too. that I said, Oh, what a stupid line or whatever. But I think I what it was is I liked it and I couldn't believe he had the balls to write it down because it would have been something that I may have in some early morning
Was it probably like your bubblegum tongue?
Oh my god, that was it. That was exactly what it was. That's exactly what it was.
Yeah, so that's from your body is a wonderland. And the thing about that is he's got Cool guitar group, right? And just his he's got that texture in his voice. He pulls that off, but it's all of course he's gonna say bubblegum tongue and candy cane lips. I can't remember exactly the lyric. But um it's writing to Your Bodies of Wonderland. And yeah, I don't know who who how many people could get away with that line, but he's saying it so well.
Right. Because I thought I because I thought I could have written it, but I would have deleted it. Because I wouldn't have wanted anybody to even know that came out of my head. But but really it's a great line. You know, like and he had the stones to do it, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. And let me find it. It's actually one pair of candy lips and your bubblegum tongue. That's clear.
See, like no, I think that's fantastic. No, like but then I was just like I was annoyed by it or so it bothered me. I don't remember. But I just but anyway, it's funny. That's because I was trying to be cool, like whatever, like but um you know.
And he's evolved so much. And that is a guy, you know, I've had the privilege of being in a room with him and having him critique. student songs that I'd already heard before and had thoughts about. So to see what he was going to say about the songs and The astonishing and wonderful thing about his five hours, by the way, he was only supposed to be there for about two hours and he just gave all of his time to every last student
And was so fully present for them. Like he had nowhere else to be. Like Jennifer Anniston wasn't waiting somewhere. Right. It was fully present. And the way he thought about writing, how meticulous he was. Same with Paul Simon, who came to Berkeley and also critiqued songs. It was so fascinating to see what they were gonna say.
They were so aware of what was happening musically. Like John is not like falling on a guitar and calling it a song. He is very intentional about his writing. And um he's he might be one of my favorite writers. Like especially his later stuff. He's
best. Yeah, he has evolved for sure, like, you know, and he's sober. Uh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He seems awesome. Um but yeah. And I and I've had uh many people in my bands that have been are Berkeley grads. Um, you know, going back to the nineties and my current drummer is a Berkeley guy. So yeah.
Nice.
You and your students are lucky to have you and uh they're you know, they're lucky to go. Be there I'm sure there'll be names we recognize. And they are soon to come.
I like being at Berkeley and saying, okay, yeah, that's good. However, let's light a candle and get out of the way.
Yeah, right.
You know, like there's something in the universe that wants to share itself. Why don't you take the lid off the pen and let it be you, but get out of the way.
Right, because with going to Berkeley it must come with like a lot of like baggage too, I would think, you know.
Yeah, I think people can They can learn too much too quickly. I felt I feel. And then it can they can feel like uh oh, I know too much. And I have to remind them that uh uh you don't know too much, but you are thinking too much and there's a difference. So we have to yeah, like because like, you know, because people that really know what they're doing. I mean, John Mayer, for example, Paul Simon are extraordinary musicians. It's not it has not hurt their songwriting to no craft. Right.
¶ Intuition, Craft, Overcoming Blocks
So there was a so I was doing a record in Seattle in uh mid nineties and two guys that were in my band, uh their brothers, Dan and Doug Petty. And um we had Dave Navarro uh come in from Jane's Addiction come in to play. And and so Dave wanted to meet me with me the day before and um so he was telling me, he's like, you know, I don't know chords. So like I you know, if if you tell me what key the song is, uh it doesn't mean anything, but we'll and I said, Okay, well we'll just
We'll figure out, you know, we're you know. So he was nervous. He didn't want anybody in my band to be there. So I told everybody to w stay out. But uh somehow like kittens, they got into the room.
And and he would go for a solo and he would then go out it would go out of tune, you know. Yeah. You know, I'd say it's in B and then again he's like, Michael, I told you that doesn't mean anything to me. So th anyway, so then one of my guys would say like why don't you do the mixolydian and you know and we both looked at it like dude
I used to say like a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it isn't. Knowledge is always great, like you said. But it's just, you know, thinking about it too much or or misusing.
Yeah. Yeah. It is a it's a weird wave to ride. And I I see people without any of it. I knew I knew what my life was like without craft and knowledge. It was just fierce intuition. Right. Um and now that I and I didn't want to learn anything musically because it was the one untouched thing that felt like my thing. Like don't touch my thing. I don't want to analyze it. Uh and now I'm really mad at my younger self because I was like, I could have really used this.
Yeah, me too. I would love to know. Is that on the Yamaha piano behind you too? Is it on?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I got one over there. But um uh but yeah, like so you know, when you think about it, like
There's only
Yeah, I I know exactly where the l the the painted lines of the road are for me. I can't imagine having a mind of a Berkeley musician because like I would it would be harder to get things done because the the possibilities would be too endless for me if I sat down at a piano. Right now they're very limited, but I make good use of it, you know. Sure do.
You sure do. But you know what? Honestly, you cannot beat the classic chords. You can't. And you didn't. You're using the classic chords, and then you just slip in that one two major chord. makes everybody go, Oh, what just happened, you know, which is which is a very Beatles move of you. And um I'm just so excited for you in this rec these two records. I mean, I'm I'm I think people are gonna listen to these records and I think they should Planet, take a drive.
But a long drive I can listen to you all the way to my drive to Berkeley. I can put on one record and listen to the whole thing and then listen to the
Thank you.
So these are great jamming, driving, relaxing. Yeah. You know, uh it's good for you. Like this
East Jesus on the way there and then Lighthouse on the way back.
Okay. Okay. We got a plan. That's perfect. Um so Yeah, I mean it I don't I don't know what else to utilize here because you know, uh you just seem to be the kind of person that's really open to finding the song in the room and you find it.
Yeah.
You know, there is that analysis paralysis thing, you know, like when I I get spun out on songs sometimes too, and that's hard and that's I get oh. And my wife knows, like, Oh, you're not having a good day, like,'cause yeah, it's not good to be around me. Like'cause like it becomes obsessed, it becomes obsessive, like, why isn't
Like you don't know where to take it or you
Yeah, or it's just not working. Like I have all the I have my cars, I have the and I have the bridge and that but it's it's not good. What is like what's wrong with it? You know, and it's sometimes it's perception, sometimes it's structural, sometimes it's inspirational, and sometimes you just gotta fucking get rid of it, start over it.
You know right. Well what so you know though when there's a little like it's worth fighting for it, like you you're not gonna let it go. What helps you come back to it in a fresh way. What helps you kind of get the
Well I think it's Darwinian if it's it's if it's it's survival of the fitness if that line's good, like behind the eight just wouldn't go away. Uh Christian as an atheist wouldn't go away. Like so those things they make themselves known. You just gotta listen for'em and uh but put em you it's important to put'em away because
You know, you just you're you're you're walking the dog and the dog's got all four of the feet in the sidewalk. You've seen those people try to walk the dogs that don't want to be walked and just looking at the biggest. Forget it.
Yeah.
Back, you know, yeah, because everything changes, you know. Obviously, you know, your whole perception of the world changes in two days, and so you'll come back and go, Oh, now that okay, now.
So put it down, give it some space.
Put it down. Step away. Yeah.
Yeah. It is the I think the further you get from a song, the more you can have almost fresh listeners perspective, which we never get as a songwriter. That's why it's really important to have someone we trust to sort of
Right.
They think.
¶ Final Thoughts & Listener Prompts
Yeah, I work in isolation, so I don't have that unfortunately. But um but it doesn't mean you don't have to work, you know, just work on something else. Just go, Okay, I have this other idea.
Good. Yeah. And come back.
And then you might Thing this and put it back over there, you know.
Okay, so stop dragging this the dog down the street.
And the dog.
Put him in the house for a while. Okay, I got it. That's good.
Yeah.
Well, best of luck with both new records and your tour and you know, it's just it's just wonderful to talk with you about about
Thank you. I'll be in bo I'm doing city winery there and
Ah okay. All right. Well if I can get over there, I'd love to come see you.
Oh I'd love it. Yeah, I'd love to meet you.
All right. Lovely. All right. I wanna thank you all so much for taking the time to listen to this podcast. Whether you're taking me out on a walk or I'm helping you fold laundry or long drive, um, it's just wonderful to have you
take the time to listen and I really appreciate that you're sharing the podcast with friends and that you're tuning in. So I wanna thank you, um, and I wanna thank as always Peter Sykes for mixing this episode and Otto Gross for co-writing, singing and producing the theme song for the show.
Please uh look in the show notes and go ahead and click on a pre-save for Michael's records coming out next Friday. Do it as soon as you can. It's such a lovely thing to do for an artist is to pre-save their work. And I will also have his website in the show notes as well. So I'm gonna leave you with one of these songs off of Michael's record. And in the meantime
I will see you next time and I will see you next time. And if there is a takeaway from this as far as a prompt goes, try to write a song with a chorus that just repeats the title at least three times. And then do your heavy lifting detail work in the verses lyrically. And try writing a song with classic chords. And what I mean by that is those standard one, four, five chords that have just been such great storytelling chords.
And then try throwing in that two major chord at a moment in the song where it needs a lift or you really want to draw s attention to a certain phrase or lyric. And then also think about the content that you usually write about, the themes that you reach for, and maybe challenge yourself to make a topical, thematic departure and write about something you have written about. I will see you next time. Now go write a song.
🎵 Music
Yeah.