Marlee Matlin

a Lesser God at the age of twenty one. Since then, she's become the most famous deaf actress in the world, and her latest movie, Coda, was just nominated for an Oscar on the morning of our interview. She's the author of two children's books, in an autobiography and a mom of four. Marley, congratulations on the Academy Award nominations. Not me, not me specifically, but moving your phone Coda. But it's

your movie. I'm excited. I mean, it's so wonderful and and it kind of I guess we can just start back to when you first came on the world stage as an Oscar winner for children of a lesser God. Nobody knew you, and then suddenly here you were. And I remember you saying that one of the famous actors in the audience said, who the fuck is Marley Matlin? That's true. Yeah, that was Danny at the at the

Golden Globes. Yeah, I was at the Golden Globes. I was walking through the audience to the stage and Jack her overheard someone say who the fuck is Marley Mattlin? And I didn't hear him because I probably would have

stopped right there and introduced myself. Well, and for those listen, Jack is Marley is interpreter and also probably one of her three dearest friends of her lifetime, and they have spent so many memories together and and honestly, just seeing Jack here in this interview with us is like seeing a celebrity because he's such a big part of the Marley Matlin story. Who's the three friends? Who are we talking about? Three friends that I was assuming it was Ruthie,

Liz and Jack? Do I have it right? Good for you? You know, I have more book, but yeah, maybe six six? Totally? Yes, So do you want to tell everyone a little bit about those friendships and the role they've played in your life. Well, I just actually talked to Ruthie just before we had this conversation. She is now a doctor and I'm so proud of her. We've known each other for thirty five years. She is my um rock. She keeps me sane and she's real. She's a friend who isn't all about the

flash of Hollywood and the industry. So she really really is. It just makes me feel normal. And I call her anytime, I mean just like that. She you know, she'll pick up the phone and she really I'm really so blessed to have her in my life, been by my side. Um. And Liz I've known since I was five, and she is amazing. She's a woman who is I mean, she has a heart of gold and her I mean, she's extremely funny. She makes me laugh and I love her family as well. And she's like a sister to me honestly.

So Ruthie is my soul sister and Liz is my sister. And then there is other friends that I have to turn in the book. Alexis is one. She's I really look up to her. She's a civil rights at turn who happens to be deaf and I call her anytime that I want to discuss about politics or deaf rights or just as a girlfriend, and she is extremely smart. And then Wendy, like Ruthie, is somebody who grounds me and she's funny. So I'm fortunate to have all these people in my life. Did not begot anybody. Oh Jack

my life. He makes my life easy most times the time. So when you won the Academy Award, you were also in a very intense and volatile and actually somewhat violent at times relationship with William Hurt. What was that night the highs and lows of your win actually, like, well, clearly, um, well, when I got nominated, Um, I wasn't surrounded, you know,

by family or friends. I mean it was five o'clock in the morning, and I happened to be in rehab and I was getting rehabilitated for my drug addiction, my drug use, and I'm proud to say that I'm thirty five years sober in any case, but I was surrounded by people who were there for the same reason, which was to get ourselves help and support each other. A

very strange situation to get nominated for an OSCAR. But you know, who knew what was going to happen when I want to set myself in there um And it's funny. When I found out that I was nominated, I was thrilled, but then the rest of the day was all about you know me and you know, doing some self analysis and not celebrating as you would if you were back home, you know, getting an Oscar nomination. So it was a little bit strange. Uh as far as I mean, listen,

there was no texting back then. There was no telephones that you could text back and forth through top to friends. I didn't have anything like that. And as far as the night of the Oscars, I am, I couldn't believe who I was sitting amongst at the Academy Awards and who all these wonderful actors that I was with that I looked up to all these years. Who I mean, I had the utmost respect for Jane Fonde and Saccoony

Weaver and this SPACEC and Kathleen Turner. I mean, come on, I just I couldn't believe it and all the stars that were there, and I was just a normal girl from Chicago. That's how I considered myself. And the first time that I was in that group. Yeah, being the first time we're in that group, it was, you know, winning, I'm thinking, okay, wait is William her getting by saying my name in sign language? Well then I thought, now he wouldn't do that in front of all these people,

in front of millions of people on television. So I was naturally shocked. I was in awe. I was a little bit petrified. And afterwards, and after I won and we got into the car, it was a whole different story. It seems like apologizing for your career to the men in your life was a very consistent theme, especially in your younger years. That's an interesting perspective, and that's a very good perspective. That meant that I was afraid to

get the oscar because of him. And we all know that we don't need permission to get whatever we need to get in our lives. We don't need permission to celebrate, we don't need permission to accept the goodness that comes our way. But I was very young. I was twenty one years old. I was new to this relationship and I was just going about as I knew how, And you're right, I shouldn't have had to apologize for my win. At this point in your career, who did you talk

to about your ambition? Did you have a community to talk to about your career and what you wanted? Well at that time, I I really really was fortunate that I had Henry Winkler as my mentor, as my friend some when I knew since I was twelve years old, and I made several friends along the way. Um, I mean Whoppi Goldberg was another person who was my friend.

Both of them being in the business really guided me to understand how this industry works at the point where you have to deal with people who you know what you who you make called the naysayers. Listen, I was celebrated, but I was also trying to figure out how to

accept the naysayers. For the morning's nominations, for example, I got texted and it was from Henry Winkler, who was supporting me along the way, supporting me as he did back then still to this day, you know, no matter what the outcome was, whether I got nominated or not. So that's what I call a true I call him a mench Really he's a match. But speaking of my community, my deaf community, I mean, listen, I was new I came from nowhere. My community was, I mean just basically Chicago.

That's where I grew up. That was my little community, just just my friends. And here I am now thrown into the spotlight. And there were wonderful actors at the National Theater for the Deaf, well known actors out there. But here I came in completely new. And I had one friend who's no longer with us. His name was Bernard Bragg. He's known me since I was eight years old, and he's probably one of the most well known deaf actors around. He created the National Theater The Death with

a bunch of other actors. But I really didn't have anybody in the deaf community to guide me. I really didn't. But uh, you know, I sort of had to figure it out on my own. I had a lot of learning to do. I really had a lot of learning to do, and I'm still learning the this day. Henry Winkler really was credited with discovering you. You know, too many people who are listening who might be younger. You know, he's the Fons on Happy Days. That's how our generation

knows him. He's wildly famous. And he and his wife came to see you in a small Chicago theater production. What happened, well, I m was a member. I mean it was a fundraiser at this theater company that I

happened to be a part of. He was doing his own thing in Chicago, supporting a documentary or a charity event, and we invited him to come and see his perform a bunch of US deaf kids, and I mean I knew Henry win Clars the Fonds and I and I had an agenda, and I said, I have to meet him because I wanted to be an actor just like him in Hollywood, just like him. So I did my

thing on stage and I signed my heart out. It was called free to be You and Me and I did that and then um, right after our performance, I went up to him. I looked for him and I said, Hi, I'm Marley. I took this all on my own, by the way, I said, I want to be an actor who would just like you. And he said, you know what you can be, what everything and whatever you want to be, as long as you believe in yourself and

follow your heart. And Stacy and Henry Winkler were nice enough to invite me to stay for the weekend after the oscars and it turned into two years. And it wasn't until they told me to clean my room that I realized I've been there too long. Uh, they're like myself and said, my husband and I got married at their house. Um, And they have such beautiful kids. They're just like family to us. And they're just the loveliest people on earth period. What's so interesting about that story

is you really need it happen. I think a lot of people dream of being discovered, but it was you who made sure he discovered you. I think that's a pivotal part of that story. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, that's that's something that will forever be um. I mean, that will stay with me to know that I had the I mean, I'm so grateful that I went up to him. I mean he said one thing that I think as a mentor would say. Who should say that someone who

looks to them for support. You have to do the work and if you do the work, I'll back you up. But you have to do the work. You need to learn. You know your fall, you know you can get up, but you can get up only if you want to. And I mean, at the same time, he makes himself available for whatever I need, whatever advice I need, just

even with a simple I love you. I mean, we we talked back and forth constantly, and I'm really really, I mean, I think it's important for all kids to have someone like that to support them, some sort of mentor to encourage them, whether it's a teacher or a neighbor or whomever is around and available. And in my case, I was fortunate to have an actor because that's what I want to be. But I think a mentor for

everybody is important. You know, you stayed with your mentor for a while when you were still a child, and I've read that you had a complicated relationship with your mother. Have you resolved that She was always very proud of me, regardless of what I did. She was always very proud as me, as the work as an actor. She spoke to whomever she could and say this is my daughter Marley, as any parent would. She would do that both parents did.

As far as resolving issues, I don't think we really really resolved it because I think we were just I mean, we just sort of went ahead with life, and you know, eventually she got dementia pretty early. She just passed away. Last October, so I don't think we really had any resolution. But at the same time, I knew she meant very well as a mom. She was very protective. She knew that I was fiercely independent, and that was only because

of her. It's so funny the irony in that she never held me back from doing whatever I wanted to do, whether it was to explore or to taste, or to touch or to try. She never held me back. At the same time she did to Henry Winkle, say don't encourage Marley too much, to make her think that she does have a career, that she'll get everything that comes her way so easily. And that's why Henry said, you have to work for it. And I listened to him,

and I'm still working for it. One thing you also said about Henry Marley a second ago was that he said to you, you know, you know you can succeed, and you know if you fall, you can get back up. Was there ever a time in your career that you didn't want to get back up? I almost I almost threw in the towel when Rex Reed said that I was a deaf actor in a death role. So in Children of the Lesser God, So how was my win

considered deserving? Because I wasn't acting and I was new to the entertainment business then, and I was green back then, and I didn't understand why he had to say that, But I understand now because he wasn't familiar with deaf actors, he was a clued in that we can be great actors. And I'm sorry that he had to say that. And now a quick break. It seems like one of the threads in your life has been that you are in both worlds. You live in the hearing world and the

deaf world. And when you have tried to be an activist sometimes on behalf of the deaf community, you've gotten a lot of resentment for that. How is that played out and where where does that lie today? Well, I, I mean I grew up in both worlds, so this is something I was accustomed to. It was just the way that things were. I was the only deaf child in my family. I went to mainstream schools to both

hearing and deaf kids. I had hearing neighbors. I was just a kid who loved life, who loved people, regardless of whether they were deaf or hearing, regardless of what color their skin was, regardless of what the religion was, I didn't care. I just wanted to be for ends with everybody, everybody who wanted to be friends with me. And I was very curious as a child, and I wanted to explore and I wanted to try. So I don't put myself in one category. So I think that's

what some people resented. I didn't put myself in the death category. I didn't put myself in the hearing category. I just put myself in who I was. I'm in both worlds. I need both worlds, and so maybe that caused some resentment. I don't know. And what about the activism part, in terms of where you've decided to step in, I know that you were just instrumental in making sure that every press conference about COVID had signing for the hearing impaired. Where do you decide to get involved and

to step back? Well, I think, I mean I understand the the advantage of of having the media available. I learned that lesson very early on. I learned that I could as an actor speak out and people would listen. And so I learned pretty quickly that what it is that I needed, I could get on my soapbox and

talk about it because people knew who I was. And now with social media, with greater attention on the deaf community and people jumping in, I feel more interested in speaking out even you know, I mean I keep saying that people at the same time. Yes, I can't speak out, but now we can all do this together. And I'm fortunately have the National Association of the Death, who is a civil rights organization for deaf people. They fight for our rights, they fight on our behalf to recognize our rights.

We can all do this together. I think, you know, there's the California Association for the Death. There's so many organizations and more and more deaf people are that are out there and spoken to. More than my support, I

mean capturing to me. I love watching television. I've always wondered, wouldn't it be nice to have words across the screen When I was a young kid, someday I always stop that And now where we have it, so it's I'm grateful to be one of the people that stood up in front of say, for example, the Senate, to say, hey, let's do this, and they passed the law. And that's you know, that's why we have that chip and every single television set to allot for captions. It was really historic.

It was really historic. So I mean, I still have a lot more to do, though. What do you wish that hearing people understood about the non hearing deaf world. I think we should first of all, learn about one another, learn about one another's cultures, learn about one another's languages. I think all of these things, and if you're talking about deaf people, we should learn about one of them. Definitely, this is a culture. The deaf community and the United

States comprises a big culture. People don't realize that. Of course, I can't blame them. I can't be angry for people not understanding that. But it's a matter of educating them and opening up our lives too, to say to them, we deserve the same respect as you would give to anybody else, to any other culture. People seem to or forget that deafness is part of the diversity discussion. That's

really important. You're an advocate, you're a leader. Are there any politicians that do a great job with accessibility and advocating for change on that front or do we need more? I think we need a lot more politicians to talk about accessibility to speak on our behalf, to speak about our rights, especially when it comes to interpreters and captioning, putting interpreters in White House press conferences and press briefings, whatever it may be, there needs to be a greater

visibility of interpreters. I think we need greater education for accessibility for deaf kids because a lot of the language deprived and in death schools. Um. I think we need greater support in employment. Deaf people are still underemployed in the workforce, and so yeah, I mean I think we

need greater and further collaboration. I want to talk about your book again because and it's called All Scream Later for those of you who have not yet read it, I think it's one of the most extraordinary autobiographies I've read, in part because I think that a lot of us, and I'll include myself in this, you assume that, let's say, your deaf, so that would be a huge part let's say, of your personality or your story. And in many ways

it's a footnote. You have a very complicated, incredible personality, and you have so many layers to your story, and I feel like if more people read your story, it would really change their perspective on how you see someone who's different as defined by that difference. Well, I mean, I'd never allow my deafness to define me. And I'm a woman who has experienced a lot of things in

my life. And the reason why I decided to put this into a book was because I wanted to help those who may not have a voice and wanted them to read this book and say, oh, she's writing about this and this and that, and maybe it's time I speak up as well. And I get it. I understand that there's fear. I understand that there's there's some people experience resentment. I understand that people find themselves in situations where they I mean people who don't believe in them.

I found myself in that time, in that situation many times my life where people didn't believe in me. But you know what I did, I just walked around them because I lived it. They didn't live it. Those people who who don't understand who I am. And if I can touch anybody with this book, then I know I've done a great job with the book. You are also the mother of four. What is your relationship like with your kids? Kids? Kids are what aliens. They're aliens. How

old are your kids now? But I can say that I can say that because I was an alien as a child myself. We were all aliens at one time in a good way. I guess. I love my kids dearly, my God, I do. All of them are Coda's children of deaf adults. But they're all very different from each other, except they all share the same sense of humor, which I'm glad for the sense of humor. One is twenty six, one is twenty one, one is almost twenty and one, and just turned eighteen. Two girls and two boys, and

I'm so proud of them. But it's interesting to watch their journey, what they go through in lives, as the different things they experience that they have, like different stages, you know, the two and the three year olds, and then the middle school ages and then the adult stages, and the decisions they have to make for themselves, and how they choose their friends, and how they choose what it is they may even do in their lives. It's

so interesting to observe. And you know, me and my husband are just standing on the sidelines just watching them, and I warned them sometimes that I have that I had my life so much to live forward that they should have so much to live for that there's so much more to experience. But at the end of the day, we're just so very proud of them, and we're so very blessed. And who would have expected you had so many high profile romances in your life. You dated Rob Low,

you lived with David Kelly. You know that I can't even touch upon all of the famous men that were part of your life. But then you ended up settling down with a police officer who you met on set. Who would have ever expected that Marley Matlin, who had this very wildlife, you know, ended up with a white picket fence and four children and a very stable marriage. Well,

I mean, who doesn't like a guy in uniform? Come on? Actually, actually, all the guys that I've dated, um were really very fun guys, really fun guys, and there's I'm still friends with most of them to this day. It's Kevin. Kevin is just a police officer. He just happened to be a police officer. It so happened that I was interested in criminal justice when I was in college, before I even got into the film business. And now I'm married

a cop. It's just a coincidence. But he's very nice, very normal, very and he even keeled, very stable, and I learned a great deal from him every day. He is an amazing father and he really grounds me, he really does. And what was your romance like when you first met Mm hmm. I can't go into too much detail here. We have to look for the keys and the handcuffs and now a quick break, So let's talk

about Coda. One of the interesting things about Koda is that it's really the story of the only hearing girl in a family where everyone else's death, and it's kind of the reverse of your experience. What was that like for you? Did you identify with her as being the only in a family? I have friends actually who are deaf, and they have siblings who happened to be hearing and

the only hearing members of their families. And I remember in high school I would look at this family, and you know, every household, of course, which is has a quota is different, obviously, But at the same time, I mean what I would see as some quotas would be more than willing to interpret. Some quotas didn't even know how to sign. Some quotas were okay, but they didn't

lend any assistance. There were so many different kinds of qudas, so many different family experiences, But it was interesting to play this deaf family role. For me, to have a deaf husband, it was a challenge for me, but it was fun to do the film at the same time because working with Troy and Daniel was such an absolute gift for me. Because for Troy, I've wanted to work with him for the longest time, for as long as

I've known him, which is thirty years. He's probably one of the most talented actors I know out there, and he was on my bucket list. But now that little items have been checked off, and if you're talking about the filming of the film, we I mean I learned a lot getting into the character of Jackie Rossi personally as a deaf mother, learning her perspective, you know, with coming from a family of all hearing people, it was just an entirely different dynamic. But in terms of parenting,

we were pretty much the same. Let we were on the same on the same track. You've said that a lot of your family members had trouble with your fame, and you know your mom at one point said that it was very hard on the family, your sudden rise to fame. How do your kids react to it? Like, do they know that you were nominated today for an Academy Award. My kids are delighted. They're thrilled to death that the film got nominated for Best Picture. He laid it, elaid it, and my kids grew up. I mean, I

I always put my work hat. I left it at the office. I didn't bring it home, just like Kevin, who was a cop, never bought his work home. He never w was you know his quote unquote hath at home his cop had. So we learned how to have a good balance in things. And I honestly and probably the most unknowing mom to them, But they're still, at the very end of the day, very proud of me. Um. Now they're old enough to say, hey, take me to the Oscars. I want to go to the Golden Globes.

I want to go to the And they never did before. They never did before. So just now I'm looking at my text on my screen and one of my kids said, can I be your date for the Oscars? This question just came in just now. To have any of your kids expressed interest in acting. Yes, yes, one of them now is actually, um, I wish they had hadn't really a start with school plays and they just they I mean they barely touched it up, but they really didn't

delve deeply into it. One of them now is really really interested and is studying television theater right now in college. So um, you know, good for him. I hope that the only the best for him. I hope the best for every child really who wants to be an actor. You know how this industry works, and it's not easy by any means, but you know, who are we to to, you know, discourage their dreams, let them taste it, let them try it. If it works with them, great, If

it doesn't, well, uh, look for something else. One of the more painful, um chapters of your story is that you were the victim of really twice, of being molested as a child. Again, you didn't let that defind you, but I wonder if that impacted then your your your role as a mom, if it made you more protective or afraid to leave your kids with a babysitter or a teacher. It did. It did affect me, It did,

big time. It did, and when it comes to babysitters in particular, I am I was very, very very particular about who would watch my kids, Who were they, where do they come from? A lot of times you still don't know. People are very good at masking you know their behaviors. But I was extremely vigilant and keeping an eye on these people and my kids when they would have sleepovers at friends houses, I would always ask who is it that you're sleeping at? Whose house are you

going to? And then in terms of teachers, when it came to when it came to male teacher is for my girls, I was very very I was very careful. I mean, yes, and it stayed with me. It stayed with me, It absolutely did. But at the same time, I mean I lived it, I experienced it, and I prayed that my kids did not. You mentioned your bucket list. What else is on your bucket list? UM? I really want to work with actors who I've admired for many years. I want to work with Meryl Street, I really do,

and I want to. Um. I mean, there's so many actors that I've found to be extremely I mean, they're just I'm always up for a challenge, you know, And there hasn't yet been an opportunity that I can work out with an A list actor to say hey, come and work with us on a project. I hope that someday I can get that call Sam. Should we do the speed round? So, Marley, we are going to ask you a few questions and you can just give us your quick answer. Is your one word or you know

a few word answers? Marley? What book are you reading right now? I'm reading my kids report cards? What is your morning routine? My morning routine is get up, look at the dog and cat that are looking at me, let them out. Feed them. That's the first thing I do. Feed them, then feed myself and start off to day with red bull and make my bed. Did you say red bull? Yes? So, no coffee for you. It's my

only vice. That's my only vice. I'm sober, so lin Alon, Okay, I used to drink diet coke for breakfast before I started drinking coffee. All right, Okay, so you sort of answered this and talking about your bucket list. But who leaves Zo star struck George Clooney? Have you have you met him? Oh? Yeah, obviously, I mean I talk a lot, but every time I mean, I'm just speechless. The nicest guy, really, really, really genuinely the nicest guy. So you're looking ahead at

the Oscars, Now, what are you going to wear? And what how you know this is gonna be? Is this your second nomination ever? Correct? Yes it is, Um I am. I'm up for grabs. I mean, listen, if there's anybody out there who wants to give me a dress to wear, something very beautiful and comfortable at the same time, I'm up for it. I love it. Hopefully someone listening will be jumping at this opportunity. And the other thing I wonder is like the night after, what happens after the Oscars?

This time is going to be so much better than your night last time. How do you picture that night unfolding and that feeling whether you win or lose, you're obviously a winner that night because I think I have such a wonderful cast, a wonderful director, we have an adapted screenplay nomination. I think it's like we're gonna just be a family together, and I have this family forever. I think we've had so much fun, and I think

the night is going to be fun. And I think the night after it's gonna be fun, and we're just gonna have to figure out how to celebrate before the oscars and then after the oscars, and I think it'll all take care of itself. It all. I are not the end, but I think it's just gonna be fun. And Happy Blue has been listening to this entire conversation and he always comes in at the end with the

male perspective, So lou take it away. There was something that you mentioned when when Amy asked about what can hearing people do to like, um, basically get to know or understand people who are not hearing, and you're talking about learning about the culture. And I'm and I'm I'm witnessing this right here, and I'm like, wow, there there is so much that you can do just by talking, collaborating, asking questions, any questions that you want to ask, that

you would ask anybody. You don't have to worry about the fact that we're death. Really, it's it's a question you can ask anybody. If you're talking about deaf people specifically, were you can learn it, you can look into it, you can go online. There's lots of things and social media, there's Google, There's everything is out there and available for

you to look into. I want, in particular, more high school students to start having the opportunity where they can learn Sun Language in school as one of their language requirements, as they would with French or Spanish or German. ASL should be an, you know, an opportunity to learn another language.

I think a requirement. I think we need to start earlier, even even before you go to college, because I think Sun Language can help give them a pathway to go if they want to become an interpreter, if they want to become a teacher for deaf kids or something like that. Marley, didn't your husband learn sign language in college? Isn't that part of how you originally got together and and how he understood you? Yes? Absolutely, he um he learned instead

of taking Spanish. And no offense to anybody who says that we should be learning Spanish and his family is Hispanic, but no, he wanted to take a s L and we were on a ride along. It was the first time I went on a ride along with him as a as a police officer. We were just friends and he took me along and I said something at the end of the right along. It was a big, long

eight hour shift. I had a question and he signed the word yes, and I was like, hey, wait a minute, you just signed something, and he goes, no, no, no, no, no one, and he put his hands back on the steering wheel and I busted him. But he That's when I thought, oh my man, I have to get to know him more. I mean, okay, I don't think we can say that's when I talk about Marley, but like, I would love to just like go out with Marley and have a party. You can tell she has a

super fun person. I mean, I really like Marley. Can we invite her to our l a what's her story? Dinner? We are that we will someday have when the pandemic is someday over. Yes, one can dream, but I really, I mean, she's fun. And I have to say, I mean, you know Amy that I obsessed over reading every word of people's autobiographies and with with her as I woke up at five in the morning this morning to cram

the rest of it. But her book was just so rich, in so many stories that we couldn't possibly have gotten to. There was just so much there. Often we interview guests and if you've read their books, I feel like sometimes our interview is like a cliff notes to the book, But with Marley, I didn't feel like that at all. I felt like there is just we just scratch the surface.

There's just so much to her from her super complicated, you know, early relationships, her relationship with her family, which we could have definitely dug into more, her addiction, and then her career. I think she's it in the book anytime you're not working, you're a struggling actress, and that's the mentality. Oh, that's really interesting. You know. One thing I really liked in speaking with her that was just to take away was how she talked about her kids.

I feel like you and I and Marley I'll kind of think about mothering in a similar way, and that like you can tell it is an important part of her life. But she definitely sees her children as separate humans with their own lives and like she can guide them and she can be interested in what they're doing, but like it is their life, right, And we don't talk about that enough with motherhood. I think like we're expected to maybe like I don't know, like you want

be one with our children, and we're not right. And I feel like that is a very modern thing. But I just loved Marley's comments about her kids and her wishes for them and hopes for them, and how she clearly has her own life and they have their own lives,

and I thought that was really interesting. Yeah. No, it sounds like she's raised independent children and and what's funny is that she talks a lot about how her own mom raised her to be independent, but then part of her resented her mom for raising her almost to be too independent. Um, there were certain things that I think she wishes her mom was more nurturing about. And it is so tricky, right, We're always walking that tight rope as parents, trying to get it right, the balance between

nurturing our children and letting them fly. So true, so true. Thanks for listening to What's Her Story with Sam and Amy. We would appreciate it if you leave her review wherever you get your podcasts, and of course, connect with us on social media at What's Her Story podcast. What's Her Story with Sam and Amy is powered by my company, The Riveter at the Riveter dot Co and Sam's company, park Place Payments at park place payments dot com. Thanks

to our producer Stacy para and our male perspective. Blue burns,