Okay, I'm going to start this episode of the podcast with a disclaimer. There's a thing I do with my friends, and I have called it sweeping judgments. All of these opinions are our opinions. Everything we say is ridiculous. None of it needs to make sense. If you've come here for facts, this is not the podcast for you. This is not the episode for you. They might also be jokes. If you don't like jokes, I'm warning you now. Get your kid to take you out of the room.
because shit might go down. This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. Welcome to Sweeping Judgments. Josh, I'm just going to jump straight into it. Okay. As a fellow gray hoodie wearer. Yeah. You knew this guy was going to shoot the guy, didn't you? It's something. Why are you still wearing the hoodie, by the way? OK, look, this is how I actually dress. So when he when he popped up.
Can I tell you can I tell you one thing real quick about the whole thing before we knew who he was or anything? When I saw that dude stand up and then like get get the gun ready, everything. I was so thankful. to see white hands oh yeah you were it was over for you oh it was over for you then then do you know how many videos have you wearing that exact outfit with that exact backpack Talking about CEOs. And so then CBS had the unmitigated nerve.
to say a light-skinned man. Did you? Yeah, I noticed that shit. I thought I was the only one. Do you want to know my conspiracy? What's your conspiracy? Italians are black again. No. Yes, because that woman from... That Trumpy woman said Ariana Grande is taking white people's roles. No, no, no. She's Italian. I'm telling you. Italian must be black again. Yo, let me tell you something, Josh. I've never light-skinned. I thought I was the only one.
Yeah, I know. I genuinely thought... But now my theory, because it's come out as Italian, I'm like, maybe, you know... Yeah, but they didn't know. But they didn't know when they made that statement. But now what I'm saying, you've... They're calling Italians light-skinned? No, no, no. Let me tell you something. When that exact thing... Because we all looked at the hand. Yeah. And you look and you're like, oh, okay. We know who this isn't.
Yeah, no, no, no. And then they were like a light-skinned man. I was like, uh-uh, guys. Uh-uh, guys. Let's not. Also, I don't want to, like, cast dispersions on my people, but the time of day, I knew they weren't black. It's like too early to be.
Doing... hit like no no damn we're not because you know at the beginning shots fired in the studio no no we thought it was like some elaborate like they hired an assassin yes yes yes and i feel like any black assassins out there probably work between 11 a.m and 8pm. I do not stand by any of these statements. I do not. I'm just saying. I won't let a black comedian woman make jokes about black people. Yo.
I didn't say we'd be late. I'm just saying that our working hours would be slightly different. You know what? I'm not happy that anything happened the way it did. However...
I do think, you know, because we grew up very religious, all three of us, that sometimes we are blessed in certain ways. I was chatting to Christiana about this, Josh, and I was like, oh, man, I wonder if we're going to talk about it on the podcast. And Christiana was like, but we can't. She was like, we cannot because he hasn't been caught.
And there is no third act to the story. He started teasing me. No, I was like, we know that an assassin shot the CEO. We know that he's on the run. But we don't know how it concludes. We haven't found him. We haven't found him. And now we have found... The suspect, I will say this, the suspect, because maybe he's not and maybe he will be found innocent. Can I interject with one other thing that is about this media frenzy that is a joy to watch?
It starts out with something bad, but just maybe we'll get there. Maybe you'll cut this whole thing. It's up. We're not cutting anything from this episode. Everything we use is staying in this episode. Everything. And if you are listening to this episode. You know terms and conditions. Anything you listen to beyond this point, terms and conditions apply. You have agreed. Josh, go for it.
So basically there's a thing and it's talked about in media, but it's almost only talked about by people of color because it's it's usually when it happens to us or we watch it happen whenever someone who is usually usually white almost. always white, but affluent. gets in trouble for anything they use the best pictures of them they they show them in the best light and finally there are people who are like disgusted by this act who are like from that normally protected group that have to Watch.
the best pictures of this guy get circulated. Like, he hadn't taken a bad picture yet. His driver's license look good. He genuinely has not. I call him Assassin Bay. Like, he is... He has a fan club amongst the ladies. Yeah. Is that surprising?
hot privilege is that what it's called yeah i mean if you thought ted bundy got mail oh man it's also who he took out right yes if he had shot a worker in mcdonald's for instance the person who snitched on him right we'd be like that's not cool but he he literally like shot up Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? To use comedy terms. Yeah. He punched up and knocked down. R.I.P. to that man, by the way. You know, father, family man. You know, we should...
We're dehumanizing CEOs right now, but people don't care about CEOs. Yeah, well, I would never dehumanize a CEO. No. Bad for business. We'll get into this later, but I think part of the conversation is... going to be us discussing who gets to be the killer. Do you know what I mean? But let's first start with the most recent news. He gets caught at a McDonald's. I don't know about you.
But everywhere I went, people seemed to be on this guy's side. Yeah. I'm shocked that somebody snitched on him. So I'll throw two things out there, right? First one is... This is not in defense of this person who did the telling. I'm just telling you what happened, right? In my experience, when you work at a job like that and somebody crazy come in, you just want them out.
by any means necessary. And so I think there is a part of you working there being like, look, I don't know. He might think I'm the CEO. I don't know what he going to do next. I will say, though, there's some crazy irony in that, and I don't know if y'all have heard.
it yet but um I know all these things are happening in real time every minute there's like a new update and stuff yeah yeah there's no as we said there are no facts in this podcast these are all sweeping judgments keep going Josh apparently yes apparently they are not going to give that McDonald's worker the reward that they were advertising, which is low-key hilarious because if I lost out on $60,000, I would be mad enough to shoot somebody.
I don't understand what the logic is behind that, by the way. The reward or not giving it to them? No, the not giving the reward. I don't understand why. Like, apparently you've got to, like, claim it ahead of time type thing. But I don't know what you've heard, Josh. Yeah, so what I've heard is that... It's quote unquote complicated, which is a hilarious statement because it wasn't complicated what that man was right there.
But apparently it's complicated because it has the actual reward to go out has to be approved by like two different bodies. And the first reward of ten thousand dollars, because remember, first it was ten thousand. And then they were like, oh, we're upping it. Apparently, only one authorized person said that, not the other one. So then they're like, oh, we're not going to give you the money. And we got the guy. And what are you going to do? Sue us? We're the FBI.
You see, the system doesn't care about you. No, it doesn't. I think this story, I mean, it's, you know, look, I'll echo what you said, Christiana. I am not happy for anybody to be shot. I do not wish for any CEO to be shot, etc. But... but but i found it interesting that companies and ceos sold this moment
first and foremost through the lens of them and their safety and their ideas, then seeing it through how people were responding to it. Do you know what I'm saying? Think about it this way. When Donald Trump, someone tried to shoot Donald Trump. I don't know what the exact number was, but it felt like half the country was like, oh no. And then maybe like 30%, even 20% was like, yeah, maybe, maybe. But it didn't feel like a unanimous thing, right? This is Donald Trump.
Someone who people would argue the most polarizing figure in American politics. Yo, when the CEO guy got shot, Twitter had some of the meanest and funniest memes. produced in one 24-hour cycle. There wasn't even a single person who was like, guys, guys, guys. It's too soon. I've never seen jokes never be too soon. And I don't understand why they didn't think of that first.
Like, why was their first thought, oh, this shows you how dangerous it is to do our jobs and not, oh, this shows you how the things we're doing in our jobs are so shitty that the whole country is full of assassin. I think that in order to effectively do the job of a CEO, especially when it comes to something that deals with human life, you have to be nearly sociopathic in nature. And so then your personal well-being is still like enough of a hierarchy in your mind.
that you don't think about things in the way that it would almost make sense to think about them, if that makes sense. So for me, like a good example, I know a lot of dudes who used to be a bouncer. and all those dudes that used to be a bouncer, the same thing happened. Somebody finally pulled a gun on them, and they were like, you know what? I don't need this job, right? But it was a thing of like... Oh, I'm going to do something different because I don't.
I don't like what's happening right now. So them taking down all their info and not just being like, you know what? Everybody gets free anesthesia for the next six months. Like, like they didn't try to like. buy some goodwill they didn't try like change anything about the practices and i think that speaks to like a deeper issue in in the psyche they don't think like us because they don't have to if that makes sense also i feel like
I don't know, maybe because I'm a foreigner here. Violence seems so ambient in America. Like, there's always shootings, right? And... For the first time, I think for like regular people, it finally happened to a person that is normally like immune to that type of violence. Like how often do you, like you hear about kids getting shot in school all the time, like to the point we kind of be...
been desensitized to school shootings. How many times do you hear about a CEO getting shot? And to a lot of people, CEOs are the enemy. So I was like, now's the time to get the jokes off, honestly. Because these are people that don't ever... experience violence in the way that you know what i think it also was it's also the fact that it felt like it was targeted in a clean and specific way do you know what i mean
Like every time we read a story in the news about a shooter, a public event, they might leave a manifesto, but it feels like such an attack on everybody that the people, everyone in the community... even whether you know whether or not you're directly in that community or not you feel terrorized by the act yeah this guy was so precise and so clean with it and again just in case you're listening i do not approve any of these things i'm just
pointing out how it was perceived by myself and many other people. It was so clean and precise that nobody else felt like it could have happened to them and nobody else felt like it was meant to happen to them. It's almost like, yeah, this was between you and him, man. Yeah, it felt like you should only be scared if you're the CEO of a health company. That's what I mean. Everyone else, it was like...
It's Wednesday. Whereas when you read all these other stories where they'll say, oh, this person had an issue. They were bullied at school. You're like, yeah, but they shot all the kids. They didn't just shoot the kid who was the main bully. They shot all the kids. And this guy or whoever actually did it.
this person went shot the person and then did you see in the video there's the lady drinking her coffee or she's drinking something yeah in the video and the shooting happens and then she just like runs off could she's also like oh this has nothing to do with me You know what I mean? She puts her hands up. She doesn't start screaming. She just goes like, well, clearly.
These two people have some sort of disagreement and it is not about me. I'm going to move. I thought it was like a lover. You know where my mind goes. What? I thought it was like a jilted lover and he was coming back to get his... You thought a CEO of a healthcare company getting shot was about...
What books are you reading? You don't want to know. No, no. A lot of people thought that. A lot of people were like... You don't want to know. Yeah. A lot of people were like, oh, him and his wife have been separated. He probably cheated. She went ahead and like... And so I think that the difference with this one as well is that there's nothing that reminds you of the...
Of like the circles and the and the and the class affairs like health care does and access to it, because even with tech, because remember when that tech. CEO got stabbed in San Francisco, nobody was like, oh, they're after us as CEOs because like startups and all that stuff is like still in the culture as like a way to lift yourself up. And we don't see tech. And tech bros in that even though we make fun of them, we don't see them as the enemy as much. Right. Whereas health care.
If you've ever had somebody sick in your life, if you've ever been sick and you were like, I followed all the rules, I gave you money every month for seven years and now you're playing me. because you can because you're in that like higher echelon of this like unspoken caste system then then yeah like you you now are a representative of the most evil thing also the thing with healthcare is that like
It doesn't matter how much money you have, you have a complaint about the American healthcare system. Yes. Because I speak to my super wealthy friends. And their doctors no longer take insurance because the doctors are being screwed by the insurance payments. So they're like, yeah, if I want to give birth, I pay $20,000. That's ridiculous. I shouldn't, you know, like I have health insurance. But so like.
Whether you're the poorest of the poor or the super wealthy, you feel screwed by this system. So you're like, all right. And look, I know we're going back and forth. You know, everyone colloquially would say health insurance company, health care company, health care. It's important to remember that this company didn't provide health care, okay? This is just an insurance company for people's health. So what you do is you pay them to ensure that you have care.
when something goes wrong. And yeah, it turns out a lot of the time, I think it's like 30% or somewhere up there. They're one of the highest in the country. They do not give you that issue. But it is rare that an issue... affects as many people across different race, gender, class lines as the healthcare industry in America. You know what I mean? And actually, I want to do this. I know there's a bunch of manifestos that have come up.
But apparently, this is like the most recent slash most confirmed one by the most news agencies. Again, if it's not the one, it's not. But they're all similar. But this one is like apparently... The one they said he did. Yeah, this is apparently. It says...
To the feds, I'll keep this short because I do respect what you do for our country. To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn't working with anyone. This was fairly trivial. Some elementary social engineering, basic CAD, a lot of patience.
Spiral notebook, if present, has some straggling notes and to-do lists that illuminate the gist of it. My tech is pretty locked down because I work in engineering, so probably not much info there. I do apologize for any strife of traumas, but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder, the US has the number one most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly 42 in life expectancy.
United is the, and there's an indecipherable thing, largest company in the US by market cap behind only Apple, Google, Walmart. It has grown and grown, but as our life expectancy, question mark. No, the reality is.
These indecipherables have simply gotten too powerful and they continue to abuse our country for immense profit because the American public has allowed them to get away with it. Obviously, the problem is more complex, but I do not have space. And frankly, I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. That's a pretty gangster line, by the way.
I like how... He has humility. He really does. This guy's going to go take out a CEO and he's like, look, hey man, I also admit I don't know everything, but I'm going to act on what I know. hashtag humble. I will say that's powerful for all of us to follow in life, the humility. And then the last part is he says,
But many have illuminated the corruption and greed, e.g. Rosenthal Moore, decades ago, and the problems simply remain. It's not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play. Evidently, I'm the first to face it with such brutal honesty. I'll pitch you this. Reading that from him was a reminder that when you read a history book, like Che Guevara and them really were just making it up as they went.
Jimmy, when you look at like any sort of movement or any sort of revolutionary, because they're gone and because they're like an idea, we think of them as people who had the whole plan from the beginning. And in this in like this to me is the is the most perfect example of why like for everyone's sake. for the people with and for the haves and have nots for everyone's sake our institutions genuinely need to start working the way they're supposed to work like no more free passes for like
politicians, no more free passes for anyone because this person has basically said in no uncertain terms, right? Y'all, I'm only a little bit crazy. Like, I'm literally just crazy enough to do this, but I'm not insane. Like, either this is going to happen.
Or you're going to take care of the issue because we act as if we act like you see Josh Shapiro and them get up there and scold the American public. This person is not a hero. And it's like, all right, that's all well and good. And I actually I agree with your sentiment. But you of all people should be working as hard as you can to save those CEO lives by passing laws that rein them in. You cannot tell people, listen, this is the way it's going to be and you're going to have to like it.
And those people have guns in America. I also think this. This is what I mean by who is allowed to kill. So we forget that laws were made by people. And laws were made by people. For people. We forget this, right? Oftentimes people think about laws as if these were things that were passed down from the heavens. But laws were actually created by people for people, okay?
One of those laws in most countries in the world is that your fate and how guilty you are is decided by people. So in America, you have a jury system, but in other places, they go to judge. A person will say,
Yeah, you should go to jail for what you did. And I'm basing this on the law that was created by the people. What I think a lot of people don't realize in this, by the way, is in a strange way, if the majority, like the vast majority of the country... is for this guy in the strangest way like in a warped way you then sort of have to question the whole system to go oh wait is the system the thing that is right as it stands yeah or
is this expression of what this guy did exposing that the system is wrong and it's not with the people? Does this make sense? Yeah, it's kind of like that. No, it makes sense. Like if all the people are against the system, then who is the system for?
You know that saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Yes. I think to people who are very pro-law enforcement, they're like, you know, you can't just have people going around shooting someone because they don't like the way they're doing their job, which is to me very reasonable. And then you go on Twitter, because, you know, in the bullish casings, I don't know, I don't speak down. Oh, yeah, yeah. They're all like, deny, depose. Deny, depose, and delay. Delay. Yeah.
And that became a hashtag on TikTok and Twitter. And people are telling these horrific stories about their experience with the American healthcare system and watching their loved one die. And they're like... This guy did something that I would have loved to do, but I was on the phone to customer service for hours. Crying because of my family. Crying because of claims and people talking about, you know, when you max out.
a half a million for intensive care with your baby, you have to pay out whatever comes after that. So like, you know. people see him as a freedom fighter. And then other people are like, well, if we allow this to happen, it's like America's eventual decay. Yes, but I think the people who are saying that, first of all, you must look at who they are, you know?
Again, it's such a hard conversation to have because everyone will try and paint you as if you are pro just killing a person, which I'm not. You know those natural experiments that you never expect in the world but then are forced to live through? They happen to you and they force you to think about what's happening in society, right? If I think of the Sackler family, right? The Sackler family is responsible for killing.
Millions of people in America or whatever number, right? Hundreds of thousands at least. They are partly responsible for doing this in many ways actively, right? They're not in jail. They're not going to be put on trial in that, all of this stuff, all of this. They're not going to be treated the way he was. And so in a strange way, to your point, I go, corporations and giant groups.
of powerful people is the domain of the powerful like this is the land of the kings right they get to do a thing to a group of people And we don't call that, quote unquote, murder or an assassination. They just go like, no, they were irresponsible. And they put profits over people's health and safety. But I'm like, okay, but then what happened to the people that they did it to?
Well, many people died. Ah, so they weren't killed. They just happened to die, right? And so in a weird way, if this guy had started a company somehow, made it about healthcare, created a drug that this guy needed. gave him too much of the drug or too little of the drug, and then this guy died, then Luigi wouldn't be going to jail.
It's just about like how instantly he did it and how much he did out of the system that he gets treated differently. And again, I'm going to say it's a thousand times because you know how the world is. I'm not for what he did, but it just throws up like an interesting, do you know what I mean, Josh? Like it throws up an interesting conundrum. Because the same people who are pro the system apply it.
differently depending on who is doing the killing. They turn around, turn a blind eye to like corporate greed. Yes. I would call it, some people call it corporate manslaughter. I call it like corporate freaking murder. Right? Yeah. I think that also... If you are able to spread as much of the culpability as possible, we have a hard time imagining 1,000 people in a company being liable for one murder.
If that makes sense. So that also takes away some of it, even in the person's mind who does it. Because I think the thing that I won't say no one wants to say because I'm not acting like I'm some complete outlier. in my rhetoric over it but i think the thing i have not heard anyone say is that um this man luigi committed murder but he did not commit the murder of an innocent man
And I think that's where everyone's struggling. I think that is where a lot of people are struggling. Yeah, I mean, because it's like, I understand what the Josh Shapiro's and even what the news to a certain degree is doing, where they're like, no, we can't just have murder, blah, blah, blah. And I get that.
But he killed a killer. So like when it's on Dexter, we love it. Yeah, that's true. So how are we now so shocked that people mostly and people who have been killed, by the way, because that's the other thing. that i think a lot of i won't put it on all of like white america or anything because they obviously have their own factions and their own sections and stuff like that but that's what a lot of people don't even understand about like gang culture is that it's like
someone eventually gets God. You stay in the street long enough, you get your people, and then you get God. And then there are people that were never going to come for you, but they're waiting for the day that you get God because you killed their cousin.
You were responsible for the drive-by, you were responsible for the shooting. And they weren't involved in gang anything, but they are happy the day you get... That's a great analogy, actually. Yes. And so I think that's what a lot of... A lot of the, I guess you could say upper echelon or the well-off parts of America do not understand because they are so used to having like swift and definitive justice for themselves.
that they cannot put themselves in the shoes of someone who did something to you. And that's just how it is. And that's just what happens. And so then I move on and you have to live with it. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. Josh, I was wondering something because I think on here where we speak a lot about...
Young men being radicalized. That was my thing. That was my Trump assassination take. I was like, these white boys are going crazy, guys. We need to get them jobs. But this guy had all the jobs. And right. And all the money. There are some people saying on like... the more right-wing media that this is a clear case of left-wing indoctrination. You send your kid to these prep schools, then they go to the Ivies, they come across these crazy ideas, and then...
Look what we have here. We have someone that, you know, a boy that had his whole future ahead of him decided to shoot a CEO. And that is some of the rhetoric we're seeing out there. Do you feel he fits under the young man radicalization, whether it's to the left or the right? Because we're seeing.
this happen on both sides of the spectrum like there was a kid that set himself on fire for Palestine last year if you remember and so it's just like do you think he fits that category or he's just like something of something else entirely Yeah, personally, I don't because I don't see any of the...
I think I think the blinders that we have as Americans are like almost like when you go into the 3D theater and they give you the glasses and one side is red and one side is blue and it's about to shape how you see everything. So you're going to see this 3D world because you have the. red on and the blue on together. And I think that if you go to one of those 3D movies without the glasses on and you're just like, this is bad. This doesn't make any sense.
That is who I think he is. I don't think there was a there was a Republican or a Democratic agenda, because if you pay attention to Republicans and Democrats, they're both for the health insurance companies and there's nothing. to me that screams uh politics with it as far as the online radicalization because everyone there are people so even people who are pro-cop are like hey sometimes dudes gotta get got he
Do you know what I mean? And so I don't think he got radicalized in a normal workout Jordan Peterson pipeline. if that makes sense do you want to what my take is because it sounded like my favorite workout because he is very i mean we haven't we haven't spoken about his appearance no i just think that's a funny workout jordan peterson he's very
very ripped, very handsome. I won't dwell on that too much, but that is informing why some people are treating him this way. But I think they spoke about him having these- I actually argue, before you move on, I actually think- it's the other way around i think you know sort of in the same world that josh is in i think we might be looking at a lot of this backward right we're going oh because he's hot people are treating him differently
because he's good-looking people are treated because he's white people are treated because he's this because i think it's literally the other way around i think because he went after somebody who represented something that everyone considers a deep enemy. And I mean a deep enemy because in the most extreme cases, they've lost family members because of this.
or they themselves are in like chronic pain and cannot get help because of this system. And this is a company that denies one in five claims. I think because of that, people are able to see things. So like if... Yes, obviously, there were people who would always think he's good-looking because he's good-looking, maybe. But I think more people can see his good-lookingness because he did a thing that they approve of. Trevor, I'm telling you, as a woman... No, no, no.
He is stadiums above the average man. He's just a beautiful man. You said you don't want to dwell, but I feel like you want to dwell on his looks. No, when you saw the first image where the mask was down, I was like, you cannot send this man to prison.
He needs to be like a Calvin Klein ad. And then you're seeing more pictures, like even like the mug shot he's serving. Yes, yes, yes. Trevor, that is shaping how women and gay men feel about this. I'm just going to... speaking about i'm not taking that away what i'm saying is this okay to josh's point like if somebody you know the enemy of my enemy in a way yeah right
There are people, as you say, Josh, who are pro-law enforcement, who are like, yeah, but in this instance, I'm with him. There are people who are anti-gun, who are like, yeah, but in this instance, sometimes you got to do what you got to do. But because this guy has done something that most people would argue is almost like morally correct, which is weird, by the way, because it's morally accepted or morally correct. They then are able to put aside the thing that...
that butts heads with what they normally agree or disagree with in this instance. Yes, exactly. That's why I don't think his radicalization was like of the norm because he somehow by just... I'll pitch you this and now please don't put me on a list because this is going to make me sound radicalized. But like I cannot get over what I was saying before off of what he wrote.
I don't think he's someone that was radicalized. I think he was someone who, like, in H.G. Wells' Time Machine, the perspective of the author is someone who's not of that time in the future where people are just, like, kind of... willy-nilly and like they're willing to let someone drown and not do anything or whatever he's like the only one that's like hey hey everybody everybody something has to be done i'm saying that like from what he wrote if you take him at his word he's like
the first domino had to drop and it was it just was me because it just was and that's actually someone who the thing that they do may be crazy But that's not a crazy thing to think, right? If you've ever been out with your friends and you're the only sober one and everybody's drunk, one of the hardest things to do is move a party of drunk people out of somewhere. And so now you're the one.
that's like kind of being the the jerk in a way that's yelling like okay okay okay okay we gotta go way and i think that that is more what he thinks he did than any form of like He himself said, he's like, I'm not even the most qualified to have this discussion. I'm just telling you, you're not invincible. The way you treat people matters. Like whatever people are going to insert into this and maybe put in.
The zeitgeist is like that was his intention. And that doesn't feel as crazy to me as like someone who is like Unabomber. Right. Because this dude managed to Venn diagram. Kyle Rittenhouse and SEAL Team Six. Everyone. This dude managed to get the people who are super, super left, the people who are super, super right, and even the cops, you could see the cops weren't looking hard.
The cops got family in hospital. Oh, man, that's true, actually. That's why they were brushing those leaves. He ain't over here. I cut you off the way. So you were going down a rabbit hole. Well, I was going to say, I think the back. thing that's something i've been thinking about since yesterday the fact that he lives with chronic pain um and had this surgery that made it worse so like it's technically in a way disabled or has this disabling event
Any type of chronic issue, especially in American health care system, can make you crazy. And I'm not saying what he did was in the moment of craziness, but being in constant pain. And the people that are supposed to take care of you do not will take you to a place where most people are just like, I'm just going to stuff myself with opiates. Do you know what I mean? And he's like...
We have to do something about it. But you see, to Josh's point, though, and I think this is where we, you know, Josh, this is where I think you and I are literally on the exact same side of seeing this is the word crazy here is for me the key because I agree with you. Somebody in chronic pain can do something crazy. But oftentimes those people, the crazy goes everywhere.
whether it's a guy in japan who goes to a preschool and stabs a bunch of kids whether it's like somebody in australia who walks into a crowd and shoots about and then they all leave some sort of manifesto and they go like the world is this or my company did this and people like wait you stabbed preschool
because your company fired wait what is happening and then here to you know to what Josh is saying and I think what a lot of people are feeling is the guy's like yes I'm chronically in pain but I'm not going to shoot a nurse I'm not going to shoot a doctor I'm not going to shoot an ambulance driver. I'm not going to shoot anyone who works in a hospital. I'm not going to shoot my doctor. I'm not going to, no, no, no. I am going to go to the person who I think has the most impact on this system.
And I'm basically going to take like an assassin's Reaganomics approach and say this thing will trickle down. That to me seems like the opposite of crazy. Again, not for or against. No, I don't think he's crazy. I think he's got, but you know me, Trevor, I think everybody's got a little bit of crazy. Yeah, I mean, then to me, I go that's like... To live in this simulation, you cannot be sane, right? But I think it was a very lucid thing. Guys, have you ever engraved a bullet case?
Have you ever held a bullet? Have you ever held a bullet? Let me tell you something. Bullets are tiny, especially in that type of gun, right? Engraving that thing takes a lot of dexterity. I mean, he's got an engineering degree. Yes, but my point is, this is not like, man, I'm going to do something about it and then go outside. No, you're sitting there. You've got your bullet.
you're like working away you think you can't make any spelling errors yeah right because that's not gonna that's not gonna get delay doesn't get the same effect when people find the stuff Do you know what I mean? Do you think he whistled while he made them? I'm just saying most people who are working, creating things, especially tiny things, whether it's trains or planes, will generally, you know, they'll work on it. And I, yeah, I think.
I don't know. Look, again, and I'm going to throw this disclaimer in one more time. We do not know everything. This is sweeping judgments from everything we do know, from everything we do know, or what we think we know right now. Could all be wrong. Might be wrong. Let's work on what we have.
We look at, like, even, like, the books and stuff that he was reading. And then, like, the reviews that he apparently left on some of them. By the way, he also followed Trevor on Twitter. So he's a man of taste. You must say that. Can I give him props? He followed a broad range of people. AOC, Joe Rogan, me, Steve-O. I think he followed Elon on Twitter as well. It's a broad range of people. And if anything, he made me think, huh.
should I not be broadening my... Well, you know you're safe if he gets off non-guilty. No, no, no, no, no. I think of it more like this. I thought to myself, if this young man could... Because someone said to me, they're like, why would he follow you and Joe Rogan? And I was like, actually, you know what?
If this young man could see any similarities in something between me and Joe Rogan, then maybe I could do a better job of that as well. That's what I thought to myself. And so I think when I look at this person, I will say this. Good luck to them finding a jury that is going to find him guilty. Or even a jury who won't pull that, you know, that law.
It's like a, what is it called? It's like some weird, there's like this weird law in America, jury nullification, I think it's called or something. Where jury can be like, yeah, the person did it, but you know what, man? It's all right. The jury is going to be tainted just because who hasn't had a terrible experience with healthcare companies in this country? But this is exactly my point. I'll pitch you this.
All that dude got to do is roll up in there and be like, y'all, I'm so sorry. I've been crazy. And I was on the phone with United Healthcare and nobody would take my call. And so I was trying not to do this for six months because remember, y'all, I went missing.
went missing and so then I was I was on the phone with them that whole time I was missing and then they didn't pick up so I was like let me go see him damn all everything you're saying everything you're saying Also, if you want to talk about safe CEOs. I know that the CEO of Starbucks must have signed a breath of relief. That man hit a Starbucks right before he did it. And then CEO of McDonald's, too. McDonald's probably like, ooh, thank goodness. Ooh.
There's an interesting... I'm not sure if it was a study or if it was just a piece of work that was done on... how collective groups can shift individual morals. And it literally spoke to this idea of everything that people will do as part of a company, they would never do as a person. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. And I think what this kid allegedly did is he sort of poked a hole in the idea that a corporation isn't people. Do you know what I mean?
Because like we often act like corporations are not people. We go like, well, the company, the company, the company, the company. And then it's like the company and you cannot send a company to jail. That's literally the law. so they go like you can't what are you going to do about it and so the company's fine and the company and then he came along and he was like oh no no no guys it's not the company you know in the same way when you when you go on a safari
They say the reason animals don't jump in and eat you is because the lions see you as one unit with the vehicle. So they don't see people inside the car. They go, this thing rumbles past us.
and it doesn't eat us and doesn't fight with us so we don't care about it and it's not our prey whatever and they leave it alone and in a weird way it feels like what he did here for many people was he went yes i know that this behemoth is unstoppable it is unsuable it is unbeatable it is unquestion it's everything you you but you know what it has people who run it and by piercing that veil i think
A lot of the people who run it now go like, ugh. Think twice. Yeah, because let me put it this way. The fact that this is what I also realized from this whole incident is like companies don't give a shit. They truly don't. Now, there are companies who are selling benign products, and it's like, whatever, this is a drink you like, you know, a vacation. Yeah, I don't hate companies, right? But there's an element of that company, they don't give a shit.
And you see the levels of don't give a shit even in the story. This guy gets shot, the CEO. He was going for an investor meeting. You know, they still held a meeting. Yeah, like some gang. They still had that. The mob doesn't do that. The mob, if somebody, in no Godfather movie, did somebody get pop pop and they were like, so you were saying? That's never happened in a mob movie.
They held the meeting. RIP, moment of silence. I think the meeting going ahead is the most chilling thing. And then how did all these healthcare companies react? They pulled down their leadership from every website. But here's my thing. If they believe that this thing was so dangerous that they need to pull down their faces, why would they not get protection for everyone? Do you get what I'm saying?
It's such a like nefarious, it's all about us. It's the top and it's the CEOs. I'm like, you guys, you can't even act like good guys in this moment. You can't even come out and go, man, you know, we don't like what happened. But we need to have conversations about what the healthcare industry, how we are perceived. Because if one of us is shot and everyone is happy, maybe it's time for us to look inward and be like, damn.
Maybe there's something we are doing or aren't doing. And I go back to, by the way, the Trump assassination thing. I said this, people disagreed with me, whatever. But I said, like, you look at those few weeks after Trump was shot at. He was a little calmer. He was just a little bit like, hey, man. You know, come on, guys. Like, hey, man. And I think there's like a humanness that companies just don't encourage in people.
And this got exposed by it even for the, like if you work for this company, why would you even like, why would you help them make themselves worse when they've shown you that if the worst that they do comes back on you? They don't give a shit about you. Well, if you lose your job, you lose your health insurance. The grand irony, right? Yeah, the grand irony. Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now? after this.
This is once again going to make me sound like I've been radicalized or something, and I genuinely have not, right? Disclaimer, disclaimer. But another thing that I think was... was on people's minds and was a thing to root for with this guy is we are in the year of what feels like open murders by corporations. That Boeing guy, that second Boeing guy, the whistleblower deaths that have been happening in American companies are like so undertone scary that I think people were like, yeah.
You cannot separate that in my mind. It really felt like David and Goliath. Yes, because when you look at Boeing, all that dude said was what we already knew, by the way. The dude that got mysteriously murdered in the parking lot of his hotel room right before he was supposed to testify in court, all that stuff, that dude, all he did was he had worked at Boeing for...
like, I think 19 years or something like that. But he was like, the plane door gonna fly off. We already saw the plane door fly off. So he didn't even have any secrets. He was just about to say it in court. And he mysteriously dies. A dude who no one actually knows where that dude is. I think that that's a big part of it. You think it'll change anything? I think if there's copycats, I think it could.
Huh, that's interesting. I think if there's copycats, and I do think there's a high chance there could be, because there's a lot of people out there that feel they have nothing to lose, you know. So you think the one no? No, I don't think one's enough. Because I don't think that health insurance companies are scared enough. And there's like trillions on the line. Like it's a lot of money, right? And they can hire security and do all these things. But if it becomes a thing of like...
You know how Robin Hood would steal from the rich and give to the poor? There's people out there who are disgruntled and they shoot people high up at health insurance companies and completely change how they operate. But I don't think one's enough. Not that I'm trying to say people should do more.
Please? I don't want that smoke. Disclaimer, disclaimer. I don't want that smoke. But I just don't think one's enough. But I think if there's copycats, it's game over. Yeah, I also think more would be bad because a lot of people don't have aim. Yeah. That's why people thought he was a professional assassin. No, but he got up really close. I mean, people forget that. He got up really, really close.
Like there are people who say the whole sniping from far away thing is like a thing in the movies. This is more real, like up close. This is what's happening in like... developing countries all around the world people who are like running to clean up government you don't get got from far oh my god for the most part yeah just someone comes up even even think of like okay wasn't it like a balcony no i think they're a lot he was on a balcony right
I think they're a lot closer than you think is what's always the case. Yeah, I think he got caught because, yeah, MLK was on a balcony, but he shot him. I think in the picture they're pointing at. Yes, they are. Where the shot came from. There he is. Yeah. It's one of those things. You know, maybe I've watched too many movies. I always thought it was just like that sniper thing and people are super far. You know, can I say, talking about movies, I...
Again, disclaimer, disclaimer. I don't condone anything, blah, blah, blah. I was disappointed at how he got caught. No. No, what I mean is like... you know it seemed so like you know like it was just like wow well that's why black people don't believe it's him you know that right no i know i know the conspiracies yeah because it was it was just like
The guy seemed to do everything like really well. And then all of a sudden it was like, oh, found with a bag with everything in it at a McDonald's. I think he didn't mind getting caught. He did what he wanted to do. He wanted to kill the CEO. And everything after that was a bonus. I think he probably thought he'd be caught sooner. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because he had the weapon on it.
Allegedly, because some people say they planted stuff, but had a weapon on him. He had a manifesto on him. Like he's telling the cops how he did it. And he's his note. I feel like he was just like, I want to, I'm going to kill that guy. That's what I want to do. And we'll see what happens next. I don't think he was like on the run and trying to like go into the shadows, but maybe Josh, you disagree. I will. I only slightly disagree. I first, I thought what.
exactly what christian thought so so when i heard that they even had a suspect or that like he took his mask down or something i was like all right this person's either like really dumb or they don't mind getting caught uh But I personally, this is just me, I think he was on the way to do it again. I think where they caught him, what they caught him with...
it screams someone who's not done to me. Like that, like, like, I think he was. Yeah, I can take that. I think he was in, in, I'm surprised the news hasn't like. said that or no one that I saw on the news has theorized that because to me to have everything with you like
Crackheads don't do that. To have everything on you from the crime you committed days ago, by the way, this stuff is heavy after a while. You're not going to lighten your load, throw it in a trash can two states away or something? I mean, my thing is if this kid is trying to get away, his family owns two country clubs, right? When you fly private, they don't check you for weapons. They don't check. So all he has to do is fly private to the other side of the country.
And then take a bus into Mexico. He already had the head start of Central Park, which I don't think people realize how much he was not going to get caught. Also, also the Central Park. This is the one thing that's confused me. The police said. that he went into Central Park and then appeared on the other side without the backpack. That's what they said. That was the original statement, right? I don't know if you know anything about this. The theory that I've seen... Right.
is that a lot of what people are saying, because the police, and I don't just mean NYPD, I mean any police department, is never going to go out of their way, even if it means telling the truth, to make themselves look incompetent, stupid, corrupt, whatever.
there were some people that were saying this thing, like the thing that you just read, was when they were looking at a different person and they were wrong. Ah, that would make sense. Do you know what I mean? So they were wrong about that thing, which I think is why they have
said it again. And now that he's got the backpack, they were like, yeah, he had the backpack the whole time. By the way, can I just say one of the funniest moments? I think it was Eric Adams who came out and he was like, we solved this case using good old-fashioned police work. It's like, no, someone snitched.
Yeah. It's just another example of like where it's like, yeah. This showed me how incompetent the police were. There's nothing. Because like, even now I'm like, you guys got outsmarted by a kid and you only got caught because someone in McDonald's was like, oh, he's a weirdo. Yeah. someone snitched and that was it like that was literally the fact that they are not giving that that worker the money
Josh is trying to radicalize his worker. I'm just going to put it out there, Josh. I mean, the worker should have been radicalized working in McDonald's because I'm sure they don't have health insurance. And I'm just, like, shocked. The lack of class solidarity shocks me. I'm just saying, like... You robbed me of 60K. I'm not saying I would. I'm just saying people have done it for less.
You're not saying you would. I just think it's wild. You might buy a backpack. Yeah, but maybe we're underestimating how much like regular Americans do hate crime. Because if it's like just a regular person working in McDonald's who's like, hey, police, I think I found him. that maybe there could be a jury in New York. Like if they get people from like Costa Queens and Staten Island who'd be like guilty. I hear you, but I think Josh's theory is the best I've heard. And it's that.
Because you don't know what you're dealing with. Because think, again, let's look at America through a larger lens. And any shooter that people talk about is shooting everyone. So we have had very few, if any, instances of a...
Like a targeted single shooter that doesn't endanger another person type thing. Even the person, people always forget at Trump's assassination, somebody else died. Like no one talks about that, right? It's not like the bullet didn't... kill another human being people are just like whew thank god nothing happened i'm like no no there's a man who lost his life he was just standing at the rally so yeah you get what i'm saying yeah so it's very rare that anyone who's shooting
doesn't involve other people who they either didn't want to or didn't care to involve same with gang violence how many times are little kids shot in the midst of gang and then the gangsters will be like we didn't want to do it and community is like we don't care you did it So I can see somebody seeing that guy in the McDonald's and like, oh, man. That's why Josh's theory is completely, I can see. Because you don't know what's about to happen. But I think when it comes to jury time.
It's going to be a very different story because now people are like, if his lawyer is in any way, shape or form allowed to bring up anything that... UnitedHealthcare does, I think it'll be tough for a jury to give this kid everything. I mean, he's a rich kid, so he's not going to have a public defender. Yeah. This is going to be an interesting case. His family's going to hire the best possible, as any parent should.
This is going to be the biggest case ever. Cristiano's going to be at the courthouse, by the way, with a giant sign that says, take it off. I do. I do think one last thing about the McDonald's worker that turned that dude in. This this is probably way off base, but I think in their mind, they're like, OK, people miss all the time. And Trump did just work at McDonald's for 15 minutes somewhere else.
What if that man, what if this dude knows something I don't know? I don't want to catch anything in the crosshairs at the fryer station. You know what? I'm curious about the McDonald's employee. I would love to hear from them. I think that's the real third act in this story. Oh, you think that's the real third act? Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I'm just, because they're a polarizing person. I feel like that's the epilogue.
Yeah, people say if it was Popeyes, they would have been like giving him more chicken and sent him on his way. I think, you know, one of the great, I mean, irony might be the wrong word about this, but I was thinking to myself, it's so amazing how.
almost unanimous all the ceos of these companies literally they you know they pulled down their photos they sent do you see the emails they sent to employees no i didn't healthcare companies have been sending manifest no i'm not manifest what do you call them like pledges to their employees to sign and the pledge is like, I stand.
with my fellow healthcare community. And I believe that no violence should ever be committed against them. I pledge my allegiance to the healthcare company that I work for. Insert name here. Like, literally, that's what they're going with.
And then, like, none of them went to work, and it was a whole thing. And I was like, it's funny how now CEOs are like, yeah, yeah, work from home, work from home. Yeah, they were fully like, no, no, no, everyone's got to be back in the office. And then very quickly, they're like, no, no, no, no, no, sometimes... sometimes you got to work from home man you know sometimes things happen in your life and uh yeah you just gotta chill josh i uh
I have a question for you that's a little controversial. If you were on the jury, what's your verdict? Oh, that's a good question. Oh, okay. Do we know what he's been charged with besides murder? No, let's just say he's charged with murder. That's all I know. Oh, okay. Here's my thing. I'm loving this already. I would find him? Yes. I would probably end up finding him not guilty by reason of insanity. Oh, okay. Okay. Christiana. Um, so. She's going to find him hot guilty. No.
Oh, he did it. My husband was like yesterday, he was like, you're talking about this guy. Do you think he's better looking than me? I was like, absolutely not, babe. What are you talking about? That's what Lou said to me. I was like, but he doesn't have...
a beard. I wonder how he'd look with a beard. But back to the matter at hand. Can jury make sentencing recommendations? Yes. Remember, you know, I'm an abolitionist. I think they can in certain cases. Yeah. So I would find him guilty. Yes. But I'd give him probation. oh damn that came out of nowhere i would give him five years probation because you would argue that he's not a risk
Because I actually don't think prison doesn't work. All the research shows prison doesn't work. And I don't feel like it's a danger to other people. Like, you know, I believe in... Which other people? You know, people like myself. Listen. Okay, okay. He was reading books by black authors. Go through his Goodreads, you know? Okay, okay. I would, no, but like, I say this about like...
Murder's a horrible thing. I experienced it in my family earlier this year. And it's been the first time I actually really had to think about being an abolitionist and how I feel. So when it came to my family... You know, everyone feels differently about it. Some people are like, they need to spend forever in prison. I do think if prison does what it's supposed to do for people, you should go there.
and be restored and hopefully be left back into society. So that's why I would find him guilty because he did take a life, right? He did commit murder. Maybe serve some time and then the rest, probation. Because... Honestly, to the kids of the man, he's not the CEO of a health insurance company. He's your dad. Yes. And they have to live without their dad.
This is true. You know, and so it's just like, I think there should be something in place because we have to have some value for life. Even lives I despise. I'm like, your life has value, right? So I'm like, I'd find him guilty, maybe serve some time. But I don't think he should spend the rest of her life in prison, which I think from a lot of murderers shouldn't spend the rest of her life in prison. Wow, damn, okay. But, you know, a long time, like 20 years, 30 years. Wow, that's your life.
it's not that's your life he is like a hot 22 that's your life he's gonna come out of me in his 40s I'm just gonna put it out there he'll be in his George Clooney era by the time he comes out that's your life
No, I'm just saying. Norway and Sweden don't even do a life sentence as 20. I can't say the sentence because I don't, you know, I can't say the sentence. I think he should, because also he should like kind of sit down and think about what he wants to do next. I think he did when he was carving the bullets. No, but you know.
And then probation. And not like punitive probation. Probation with a view of like, you can now contribute something to society. And people would argue he already did. He did, but like in the positive way. Not like addition by subscription, but like some addition. you know what i mean like but that's my that's my view on like people who kill okay um and also i feel like if he was a black guy we'd probably be having a different conversation right now so you know okay okay um trevor
I'm so sorry. That's my view on it. Do you mind? Based off of Christiana's brilliant answer, I think I need to change my answer. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. I would... probably find him guilty and I would sentence him to be the CEO of a healthcare company. Not so easy when you gotta do it, bruh. What about you, Trevor? So if the backpain thing is real, and if some of the stories are true, and if his lawyer very creatively argued self-defense...
I would have a difficult time sending him to prison. Because I think one of the hardest things we grapple with in society is, again, I come back to how we started. I myself wish to live by the rules and the laws that everyone else does. But I do believe we live in a society where that isn't true. And I believe the more power you amass, the more pain you can inflict on other people. And you're not held.
to the same laws and the same punishments as everybody else and so it is difficult because we ourselves are in the thing that we are trying to in many ways reshape and dismantle so it it's like
It's confusing because you're in it, right? But if somebody is unable or if their life is being threatened, by this nebulous entity and they're like this is the only way i can protect myself and others i would struggle to find them guilty based on the evidence and a lot of that evidence for me would be based on like This company, have we shown that they actively try to not pay for people's healthcare? How many people have died because of their practices?
Are they actively doing this? For instance, like they had that AI software a while ago where they had AI that was basically approving or denying claims. and the numbers I say might be off, but I think I remember them correctly. This thing was denying like 90% of the claims that were coming through. Crazy. And then they found that it was making a mistake, and they kept it.
They kept it because they were just like, well, we're just printing money here. And that's just one example of what this company has been accused of or found guilty of. Do you know what I mean? $400 billion in profit or whatever, or revenue. It's like they've been crushing it.
So I do not wish for the death of anyone, but I'm like you. The thing has happened now, right? But it's a difficult one for me to wrestle with because I do think we live in a world where some people with the right tools and everything can take... anyone out and if they are blanketed by enough corporations and ideas then they are seen as a you know
Maybe I just see it from his family's side, like his parents, his siblings and his children. Completely. And his life had some value to them. Completely. Because for me, my parents... Kids, your parents aren't their jobs. Like even Saddam Hussein's kids. No, no, no, completely. I love my dad. You know, like these very horrific people. Yes.
And if we believe like all life has inherent value. Yes, but I'm arguing that the value of his life is now not going to be. Because remember, I'm also an abolitionist. Remember, for me, it's based on this. Does he have a direct connection with this company? And were they doing something to him directly? That for me has a big effect on it because I then go, hmm, it is difficult for me.
to then go, because someone would be like, yes, but if you have a problem with the company, take them to court. Good luck. Go try that. You get what I'm saying? I'm trying to figure out the ways we hold this young man. who's done this thing, which... Yeah, for me, he'll go to therapy and we set him down. Make him accountable. Because I just don't think you should be able to kill people. I don't think so either. I don't think so either. But I think he's already going to be held more accountable.
than every CEO of company. And remember, this is a clear thing I want to add in this conversation is I think all three of us agree. This is not about being a CEO, by the way. Like CEO is like a loose title. People have it on their dating profiles. So CEO is the thing that I think can sometimes muddy it. I think people should just ask themselves like, you know, from a corporation standpoint, from an organizational standpoint, like why...
why is it okay, let's say, for the US government to go in and kill like El Chapo or Osama bin Laden? Why do they do that? Why do they do that, right? They do it because they go, look, we know that many people are involved in this organization. that is taking people's lives but we figure if we can get to this person who's the head of the organization
We're making the biggest difference. And that is what we're doing. And then we, and I say we as the collective, most people do not go, oh, the American government murdered Osama bin Laden. I say that. Okay, you say that. But most people do not. They'll be like, no, no, no.
They went after the guy and they got him, okay? And El Chapo's alive, but you get what I'm saying. They'll go like, oh yeah, they shot Pablo Escobar. People won't be like, oh, they murdered him. They're like, no, no, no, it was a chase. They got him on the roof. They shot the dude, okay?
And so I'm saying in a weird way here, I'm saying on a jury, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I'm not condoning. I'm not agreeing with, because everyone has a different way to solve their issues. I would probably just tweet a lot. I'm just going to put it out there. I would send very scathing tweets and see if I can get a response. He chose a different method. We can't go back on that method. And so I would probably vote that the case is either like...
yeah, thrown out or it would just be a not guilty or like a, yeah, there's probably other ones they give you on like that piece of paper. I forget what all of them are from law and order, but I'll just be like, yeah, judge, you know, we find the defendant. Man, pretty messed up. This was all messed up. So that's how I see it. It's going to be the trial of the century. It really will. Let's be honest. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine if that kid had blue cross, blue shoes?
Oh, wait. That CEO would be like, oh, oh. Oh, man. You're right. United is terrible. Sign up with Blue Cross Blue Shield this month. Yeah. well you know what my friends this is these are some of my favorite conversations to have with you because we have no facts just feelings just feelings all speculation and uh if you have listened to this entire conversation remember what i told you at the beginning
None of this is true. None of this is confirmed. None of this is factual. And Josh, Christiana and Trevor do not stand behind anything that Josh, Christiana and Trevor have said. This is our disclaimer. But yeah, thanks for listening. Thank you. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin,
and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?