Oobah Butler: The Digital Mirage

Where did you grow up?

I grew up in a little village called Feckenham in uh in England.

Sorry. I'm sorry. Feckin' him is like why do you look at me? No, come on, you can't tell me you didn't enjoy that. Feckin' him. You seem like you're from Feckin' him. In fact from now on I'm gonna say that about you. Uh huh. My friend Eugene from feckin' them. You've been fecking my whole life. You're feckin' them if ever I saw one.

As you say this, I can't wait to clip that for my mom and dad.

What?

Trevor and I were saying...

Back and it's just

That's just I'm already I'm cooked here, I'm done. I'm I'm happy.

It's it's sort of like they are paying for their wife to be able to be their companion in the world so that it's not as solitary anymore. So now when you're riding a bike in the mountains preparing for the you know during the off season, you're not alone. Yes. And then when you you have to fly to the Alps to go and ski every day to prepare for the thing. She won't be there. She just won't be there. And then you will you like you know what it was like comedy on the road? Yeah. That was not

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The amount of comedians who committed suicide in like a random hotel room somewhere. Jesus. It's actually like a like a really high number. If you look at the industry, it would always be like random comedian dead by themselves. Yeah. It's always them alone. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So I can I can see that where it's like it's more them going Uh yeah, I'm like sort of paying for her to be able to do this. Let's go.

I suppose it changes when they have when they have kids as well,'cause then they're then they'll what do they bring the kids with them as well? Yeah.

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They do. They do. Yeah.

The kids live on the road with them. Also remember that mo most of them started being on the road when they were

Um

Thirteen. 13 14 yeah they had to get

That's all they know.

Yeah. That's all they know. Yeah. They they always all of them say one thing. I missed out on my metric dance. I missed out on y university. I don't know what it's like. So they always say They look at their old friends as a distant memory.

That's interesting.

Like they think when they were thirteen their their life stopped when they were thirteen having school lunches and all of a sudden All of them have a c a common story. Uh the parent came to school, spoke to the principal, then the principal was like, Yeah, I'm sure you can uh then they never saw their friends again and all of a sudden they were in a camp. They were wearing sponsored clothes, they were going downhill, they were surfing, they were doing all of this.

Right.

The biggest fear of retirement is what am I gonna do when I Off season is a is a torture when the kids get older'cause they think, What am I gonna say to this person? We don't know the routine. She d or he or she doesn't know I'm a stranger. I show up and they go, What are you doing? Yeah.

At least if you've got that Red Bull sponsorship, you've got money. Whereas with the Olympic athletes, it seems like they haven't.

Yeah.

I got no money either.

That that that might be for me the the the most depressing trajectory. Yeah. Olympic at Olympic athletes. Yeah. Because most of them don't get anything in that way. Yes. They don't get the endorsement deal.

No, yeah.

They don't get the ad campaigns. They don't get the reward money. They don't get anything. Yes. You Or it's almost worse for the ones that like win the gold or something. But like an you know those like golds that mean Skeet shoes.

Uh I I've said get in there twice today. I can take a number one, I can take a sixtieth minute.

Oh when he had the assist from Salah?

Yeah.

You my brother. You you know who you are. Who am I? You're the great Who am I? You're the great Gatsby of You're the great Gatsby of

for this game.

No of football because Eugene Eugene knows nothing about football and his greatest joy is acting like he's fully invested in it. And then like he'll he'll absorb everything we say. Yeah. And then first he'll like throw it back at us.

Yeah.

Oh but like im impeccably. Impeccably. And y he'll just I remember the first times he did it. I didn't pick it up. So you'd you'd say something? And then someone would go like they'd be like, Ah man, today's gate they'd be like, Ah, Sober Sly And then you'd be like, Dude, Sobasly And then they would just go off. They'd be like, Man, I just don't get what and then like the last thing be like

I mean I'm I'm j I'm just saying it, you're talking sense, yeah. Why is he on the right? We need him in the middle, yeah, you're right.

You'd watch people you'd watch people have a conversation by themselves, just prodded on by Eugene. Just prodding him on, just prodding him on.

It just happened. You just got me.

He's fantastic at it.

I I just started uh I I'cause I've I've been living near what lately two years now. Um and I just I I I like love sports, so I'll watch it I'll watch anything.

Oh you're one of those people.

No um well kind of. But I'm I love football. I love cricket, which is why I asked'cause I was like, it's interesting. I don't watch much of it, but I watch like the England national team. Yeah. I don't watch em much else. Like I'm not watching like Indian Premier League and like if it's on great. But uh I started watching the Knicks this year because of the because of the players.

Like that's all sports.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's all sports.

The story, you need a story, yeah, uh like yeah, you need that.

That's good.

Yeah, and it was like that was cool. I went la I went last week. This week. When was it? Monday. Last Monday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to uh Nick's and uh yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r

Well, I guess. I don't know.

South. It was it was sick. It was great.

But keep up at

It was an accident. I was like, Oh probably like ba baseball d hasn't happened. Like oh maybe I'll like hockey.

No, but if you like it.

Like if you

like cricket, I think you will like baseball.

Yeah.

So when I was I've always I I don't even think I haven't liked ba baseball. I've just been like, what is the point of this? What are we doing here? When I went to a baseball game recently I had a friend who came and sat with me for he would just happen to be at the game, coincidentally.

Because you're invested. And you get...

Depending on where the time is. Well yes, exactly. So now he came and introduced that all to me. So he's like, Okay, so you see this picture right now. He's getting close to his hundredth pitch. Mm-hmm. And so now they're trying to wear him out and get him to a hundred pitches because once once he gets to a hundred pitches then they have to bring in the new pitcher.

I didn't know.

And you see exactly. That's what I mean. I didn't know any of this stuff. So then I realized baseball is all a game of like

Uh no, I'm good.

thank you baseball is almost like a Have you ever played those those those games? They're normally mobile games, but you I I used to play them back in the day on computer as well, where you were like chipping away at something, chipping away at something, chipping away at something, then the wall b bursts and then it's like now the war starts. Oh yeah, or or those where the

Yeah.

Nothing's happening. Yeah. But to your point, because you know the jeopardy, you're like, Oh man, what are they gonna do? Are they gonna go here? Are they gonna Yeah. That's baseball. Yeah. So baseball is one of the sports where if you don't understand the jeopardy

Yeah.

I don't think you can understand the sp you I don't think you can appreciate the sport because unlike basketball, unlike other sports where it's like, oh, ball goes there, in ah ball goes there, in ah ball goes there in. No. Baseball is like What are they gonna do? Are they now going to put him in and you know, a right hander throwing to a left batter? Oh this is you know it's gonna be like this stressful what are we?

I had no idea about that. I had no idea.

So you put your best you put your best picture in? You try and get as many outs as possible in as few pitches as possible. If you get to a hundred pitches you like sort of have to take them out. Wow. Or they have to leave at a hundred pitches. Yeah, because they have to go rest their arm. Like an Uber driver. So after twelve hours

Is that right?

Yes, ma- No you can't after twelve hours, let's look. You've got to take the person and then rest and then

And then you get the really shit Uber driver in.

But that's basically yeah. No, but that's basically why but then the apparently the drop off so the'cause I was confused by that, but the drop off to the second pitcher.

Honorable. Yeah, they want they want to all be.

They're the best pitcher. So the drop off to the second one is like they're way more hittable. They were like this is where the home runs are gonna come now. This is where the ball

Makes sense.

That's where the scoring is supposed to sort of happen. So it becomes this this tactical game of like when do you switch your pitches, when do you not switch your pitches? W how you you know and then just because that guy came in and introduced it to me, I was like, Oh

Oh, okay.

Okay, now I understand the tension. Yeah. Now now I get it. Now I get why everyone in the stadium is like breathing these collective like So the only time baseball became fun is when it turned into the Kardashians. Or rather, when someone showed me that it was the Kardashians. It didn't turn into. You know, if there's one thing I want, have you been to the Super Bowl?

Now

I wanna do that. You wanna go to the Super Bowl? Yeah, yeah, but not for the football, for the pomp and ceremony.

It's a thing.

How's that actually?

Yeah yeah, I liked it. It didn't flag up. No, I didn't flinch.

Uh but Uber welcome man. Welcome uh welcome to the to the podcast.

Just on the side.

No no no what do you mean? Why you gonna drink from the floor?

Well yeah, I was

Just like through your sleeve. Ca can I tell you you you're one of those um you know when you you know when you form a an idea of somebody in your mind before you meet them? Yeah. You're one of those people where the first time I heard about you I was just like, Wait, who is this person? I'cause the the first time I heard about you, it's when you

It wasn't actually that many but it was it was more the algorithmic cac.

like it had put it at the top of the thing

Exactly, yeah. It was enough and they were done at the right time, and that was an accident. I wasn't being clever.

Excellent.

Well, no, it wasn't, but it was I was lucky uh tremendously lucky that it worked, I think. So I'm saying. Like I don't Yeah. The fact that it actually I mean you I'm interrupting you. No no no

No, you're not. This is not you can't interrupt me. It's your story.

if I just

Trust me. You can't.

Can't inter can't interrupt okay. I need to see I I need to understand where the Jeopardy is, so I need to know Yeah, no, I mean that yeah, I mean you said that that was the first time I think anybody heard of me, I think at all. It was uh yeah, tremendously lucky. Like it was kind of one of those things where it was like this like idea that was like

Yeah, we'll give them a little context. That'll be fine. But for those for those who don't know, it was basically a you you created a fake restaurant in London and it was a place that everyone was dying to go to. And then at some point publications started picking it up and they were like, oh, the best restaurant in London that you can't get into it. And then they wanted to cover it and then publicists wanted to be a part of it and it was a whole thing. And it becomes this whole world.

I understand it was completely made up.

You you you created this fake world

Yeah.

I'm so into this. Yeah, this is why this is why I for me now I'm in. So I'll tell you, you know, you people always go like, why do you have somebody on? Yeah. Through and through for me, you made me realize So y you live my dream. That's why you're here. You live not genuinely, you live my dream. And I'll tell you what because my dream has always been to be like like a like a massive like fraudster. But then I go, you go to jail.

It's called BMY.

'Cause I was like, this to me is fraud. This seems like massive fraud. But if you film it and if you s if you have a camera where you're like, so I'm gonna do this fraud, then it's now it's a prank. Line between fraud and a pick. That's a loop. Yeah, the loophole is you gotta say ahead of time to a camera. Oh, it's like hey guys, this is the So day one of planning this prank.

Yeah.

What's the difference? Basically, it's who brings the camera. If you bring the camera It's a porn. Sorry, I'm... You you're not wrong. If you bring a camera it's a porn. If someone else brings the camera, it's a sex tape.

Yeah. That's against the law.

Yes, you see. So But like so so let's let's talk through this and then I want to get into like how you

Yeah.

Yeah. How you even get into this world.

Yeah.

You have The the number one r t talk me through how you start the scam. Like where did you even begin the idea of I'm gonna create the world's most popular restaurant that doesn't actually exist but gets all these reviews and then gets written about and then people want to pay exorbitant amounts of money to come to but they've never been to it. Like'cause you I there's a few things that you do here. You you encapsulate in one story hype, you encapsulate myth, you encapsulate like

Uh so yeah, I mean I suppose that I'd been when I was younger I used to work in sort of bars and restaurants and stuff like that. So I'd been in those contexts, I'd been

Where where was this by the way? Where did you grow up?

I grew up in a little village called Feckenham in uh in England.

Sorry. I'm sorry. Feckinum is like why do you look at me? No, come on, you can't tell me you didn't enjoy that. Feckin' him. You seem like you're from Fekkinem. In fact from now on I'm gonna say that about you. Uh my friend Eugene from Feckin'. You've been feckin' my whole life. You're feckin' them if I saw one.

As you say this, I can't wait to clip that for my

Oh my god.

Trevor Noah's name. That says I'm already I'm quick there, I'm done. I'm I'm happy. Uh no, I mean I so I grew up in the middle of nowhere basically. Yeah. My mum's my mum's family have been there for hundreds of years, got web toes to prove it and all that. Uh no. No, not really. But uh may as well do. Um and then my dad's family are from Birmingham and Ireland and like so um we I grew up there. Uh I I'm the youngest of six.

Oh, something like a posh vibe.

And then farmers. Posh farmers. You're right in the middle of the year. Kind of like and then a lot of the peop yeah, and a lot of the people who you would have worked in the mills and stuff had have moved a long time ago. But my mum's family our family's still there. So it's like a fun environment to grow up in. Um and

It holds that much power. Yeah. I've I've sort of heard about this from the outside, but really so if you work in a food or beverage establishment, if someone leaves a one star review, it shakes the place up.

It's still the same way. It's just the p I think it's uh migrated slightly. I think Google Reviews is probably the number one yeah, I would say. But like it's my like when I was doing that when I did that, TripAdvisor was the biggest Taurus website on the planet. Yeah. I would say it's probably still

It's still big.

Probably one of the top three. But but yeah, I mean w it it still happens now if someone leaves a one star review, it's on you. So it was interesting. Yeah. So

Wait, wait, wait. So when they leave the one star, did they say it was him that I'm leaving the one star for?

That does happen, yeah. It does happen, yeah, yeah.

like a daily petty version of the Michelin star.

It really is.

Have you never read I love reading Google? No, no, no, no. No, literally and then they'll They'll Ryan. They'll literally go and they we do have Ryan. They'll literally go, they'll just be like um one star. And then I read I like reading the one stars because I go to leave one star for a place. 'Cause remember that's the lowest you can leave basically. Yeah. Right. So you left one star. Yeah.

The worst experience you could possibly have.

This is the so I want to know what the worst experience in your life could be. So you go in. So I go read one-star reviews. Yeah. I always want to read the one-star reviews. Yeah. And then it's like. Especially in a in a place that has like, let's say a place has an average of four point six or four point seven. Then is that one one star? Thousands of people have said this is four point seven worthy. And then someone has a one star. I'm like, okay, I want to know what happened to you.

What's happening?

The shop across the road. And then you go in and competition. Yo, you go in

That is that definitely happens. Definitely, definitely.

Yes,'cause the the the the number one whistle blowers in any situation are people who didn't get the contract. Oh competition. Oh I like that. Anyway. So then you'll go in and then it'll it'll be it'll sometimes be like um great food. Great ambiance great atmosphere so compliments first. Yeah all these things

They're establishing that they're reasonable. Yes.

I like this actually. I like this. Then th then they'll then they'll go then they'll go like appetizers were a little expensive, but still great. and then they'll be like Eugene our server Totally unprofessional. Didn't like how he treated us. Should be fired.

Yeah.

Just like that. That's it. One star. One star. Yeah. So I'm the problem. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I I so so I ended up I actually before I did the restaurant thing, so what happened was yeah I so I had that little experience, years five, six years passed. Then I start uh working as a writer, trying to work as a writer to move to London. Yeah, try and start hustling, trying like what can I get paid for? What gigs can I get?

Yeah, I know this.

And uh and the I there was a like a freelance website. And uh it was called uh People per Hour and uh they would like people would advertise like writer, we need a writer to do X, Y, or Z. One of the gigs on there was writing fake five star reviews for restaurants. To juice their right to juice their ratings.

God loves you.

Yeah, yeah. So so I started doing that. And and I would just go like go on their website, go, all right, okay, well I I went there, I had the whatever.

No, way, way, way. You can't just skim over this because I'll tell you I'll tell you why. Because right now what you're doing, I think for me and I I I think other people is you are Exposing the very underpinnings of how like we think society works. No, because a lot of people they like people trust reviews. Yes. Do you know what I mean? And more than that, people trust well-written reviews. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

So I'm not a regular user of drinking glasses. And so when I began this journey I thought to myself, where would I find the right drinking glass? And you're like, Oh I'm in, I'm in. And now you're telling me that this is a freelance job that people get hired to do.

I mean it I would say now it's way more advanced than that. This is this is eight years ago, seven or eight years ago. So I think that that now it is a w the manipulation of it is far more sophisticated. I mean, we all know this, that uh our lives are curated by um, I don't know, manipulated realities, aren't they? And then, you know, people's decisions with my thing, which we're getting onto was based on a f on a false reality w that had been constructed and sold to us as legitimate.

I didn't know this I never knew there were human bots. You're writing these fake reviews. Yeah. You're you're in this world. What made you a good fake reviewer?

Uh willingness and openness to mistruth. No Yeah, I suppose Yeah I mean literally what I just said is true. Like I I think I'm a bullshitter uh at heart. My dad is a bullshitter. I actually my the my great uncle no no no. Great grandeur. Moved to the US, right? Temporarily came back, went back to Birmingham, England. He came here, I and this is a real story. Came here and sold.

Yeah.

It felt but I c I suppose it felt faceless and it felt I didn't do loads of it. You know, I'm not like I'm d I'm earning bank by writing these things.

What did you earn per review?

Ten pounds. So what, thirteen dollars fifty?

Yeah, no, I mean that's uh ten pounds. Eight years ago. Yeah. That's a lot of money. Yeah, that's a lot of money. I think ten pounds per review.

Yeah.

Do you have a limit?

I d I would guess that I probably only wrote about twenty of them.

And then what happened?

Well, I mean I just found other gigs. I was doing other things. So so it but it was that it was uh not like the main job that I had. It was I was in London, I'd just moved there and I had no I had no re I'dn't been to college, I had no reason to think I could be a writer. But I was trying to do stuff just Get to get paid for it to legitimate and try and do it.

You love white confidence. You truly do. I was going to, but in the middle of writing, I realized I'm not qualified. But anyway, Ha ha ha.

That doesn't matter. Come on, I don't know. It's it's it's his medicine. Have a bit of that. Uh take the red food. Take the brown. No, no, it's true. No, you're you're you know what? You're absolutely right. I mean we grew up we grew up in a kind of like a weird kind of like uh we as I said, we were kind of the weird kind of

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So um dad sold vinyl records on the markets and always had loads of office jobs. Mum was a nurse. It was loads of us and it was sort of just like it felt fun and naughty and life when it feels fun and naughty is kind of always

your fault we'll come into don't come to uppercuts if you don't want to get an uppercut.

Play extra for the uppercut.

Yeah.

Special interest. Uh but like so yeah, I took out these these it was actually three different guys, I took them all out and I and I reviewed them. So I reviewed them like like a restaurant.

Hilarious.

And I did that and all of them were kind of very strange and quite evasive and complicated. One of them was one of the funniest guys I've ever met in my life, and he made me take him to the the Poshes restaurant in London, or one of them at the time, La Gavroche. And he went through the whole meal and he was complaining the whole time. It was like being with Larry David. He was just the whole time being like excuse me, uh is that actually a ma oh sniffing the wine, doubting the semellier.

I know.

I have a high bar for for shame for like shame, public shame. But this guy was insane. Um maybe just get this right about talk to us in a while. But like he was like he said to me it was like uh the whole time he complained and I was like, This guy's fascinating. And he was like, you know, the reason I do this is uh I I'm I'm like uh he saw himself as some like vanguard. I'm doing it for people. Self sacrifice, I'm doing it.

I'm holding the door.

And uh and he exactly. At the end of the evening I remember saying to him, So what what do you think about La Gavroche? And he said, Oh, it's it's one of the best restaurants in the world. I was like after spending two hours with him It was insane. And I was like, how many stars? He went. And that was sad.

How do how does that work? Because I I don't I'm I don't know any of anybody who's opened the door. Yeah. Or like how does that work? Open the door.

It's the right question because I was singing the same thing. That's why I got interested in it. Yeah. Because I'd been in a band and we'd failed. And I was like, it must it's so hard to sell a C D. It's like two thousand and fifteen, sixteen this was. And I was like, You can't no one will buy a C D. What do people want to buy less than a C D? A Jehovah's Witness at the door. Like and I was like, if I could compete with them This is all over the place, I'm sorry.

No, this is great.

But uh but it's uh but basically what happened was I I I then started going around with them from door to door and building data and how many people out of a hundred doors would let them in.

Where did you find Jehovah's Witnesses that were looking for? They found him, Eugene. Come on.

Family. They saw they saw a lapsed Catholic and they thought.

Yeah.

What's that medicine in his pocket?

It smells like

Um but yeah, it was just like this it it was it was in it was in South London, so it was loads of like, you know, new churches and stuff like that around there. Um it was very active religious lead, South London. And um yeah, so it was like I I started going from door to door. I went to these seminars they had where they would go they would be like okay and they would do like a a role play like you're in a

So they teach you how to do that.

And then there'd be like they'd they'd go like

Okay.

There is no role playing now, pretend you answer in the door. Oh So I'm your it's your house. Yeah.

Hello! you don't open your door are you talking through the door yes okay i just want to make sure okay sorry go ahead sorry was before. Oh before ringing when your face was the camera. Yeah, he said the CDs. He said the CDs.

Hi there, would you like to learn about God?

What about him?

No, listen, you need to learn about God. What went wrong there?

Um No, you you you you you were aggressive. You were yes, you were too aggressive. Yeah, you were too aggressive.

Okay, great.

Well I think what you could have done differently there is you could have asked him maybe if he has troubles in his life, or would he like to learn about the love of Jesus, or would he like to learn about something good? Or you've got to offer him something, I think.

Fantastic. So do do you want to try

I was just watching. No, I can't I don't know I don't think I can do better. I was just watching convention. he can do better no i don't if he doesn't do this now i'll be tortured with it the whole day No, no. First I want to see a better version.

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He just gave me the feedback.

I don't know how it went, but I got excited about the idea of you to show it. That's how it should be. This is how it works.

Thank you, thank you.

Okay.

Not

Hello there. What a lovely day. How are you? Would you like to hear about would you like to hear about the love of Jesus Christ? How are you feeling today?

He loves me too?

He definitely loves you.

Although I'm not wearing pants right now as I opened it he loves that.

He's got a lot of space in his heart. Stop. That's grand tastic. So that's basically what it was like. The seminars were kinda Uh with morning.

Don't go anywhere'cause we got more Now after this.

This is great because you're showing me how you know to pull off one of the greatest scams that's ever been pulled off.

Yeah, so I I I I basically just Kind of had an idea a a thought about the platform that I knew that the reviews were a lot of them could have been falsified. It was very easy to falsify.

Wait, I have one question before you get into that though. Yeah. I don't understand how you put the restaurant on TripAdvisor. Does nobody confirm these places exist or don't it? How does that work?

So yeah, no, I'll I'll I'll tell you. But basically like I looked into it, so the reviews were very easy to leave, the accounts you can create them very easily. Okay and then the restaurants themselves felt out it felt like something that would be impossible to false or something. Yeah. So I kind of just like Just started trying it out. I was like, okay. So Okay, so went on it, created a restaurant on TripAdvisor. What do I want as the name? So I was living

Hollets.

I was living in a garden shed at the time at the back of someone's house. So I just moved to London and it was like the only place I could afford. It was uh eight hundred pounds a month. Which is still not that cheap. But anyway, whatever. Eight hundred pounds a month.

Listen.

Uh just all of it.

I just, so, so, so.

No it's good.

Good.

It was uh say per person. Per person. Oh you're

Yeah.

Yeah, that is absolutely hilarious. And uh yeah, so I called it the shed at Dulich. I was living in a garden shed in in in London at the time. Yeah, d genuinely. Um You had you had to put like an address, so I just put the name of the road. Okay. And it didn't didn't make you specify. And I was like, Well, no, I was gonna know,'cause I'm at the back as well. So it was it was like a load of

You're living in the right.

You need a uh website and you need a uh email that was easy to do. And I made this website with the help of my mates, so it was like all these photos on there that look like gourmet food and it looked like Michelin style quality food but

Yeah.

And another thing was...

Been all our lives.

It was like you know these urinal cakes you get and that was the

Come on.

Made made that look like a pan fried scallop. And like had it with the Yeah, it does, it does. Put some honey on there, uh, some stones from a fish tank. And like that was genuinely it was like me and my mate Chris and shaving foam. So sea foam, like shaving foam.

I mean it is brilliant though because You know, this is the weird thing about a scam is oftentimes a scam is more well thought out than a real thing. Yeah.'Cause I'm listening to this and I'm like I wanna go to this restaurant. Even though I know it's a scam. What mood'cause think about how many times you go to a restaurant and you like actually it's the mood that I'm looking for.

Yeah.

Not the food. Like can can I specify yeah, I would like that actually.

Yeah, I mean, I... I to be hon th another one of the things I was weirdly even thought about this been a while, but like I was also doing little reviews for uh for a a like a a newsletter, you know, like a What's new in London? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They would send me to restaurants, so I was already getting a bit of a seeing what it was like out. Right, right, right. I remember going to this meal in um

You just compounded all the bullshit on this thing. You're like one thing on top of this, on top of this on top of this

Any good satire and you'll know this from doing the day show and everything is like It any good stuff it has to be monkey see monkey do. It has to be Yeah, that's true. It has to be what's going on in out there in the world. Yeah. Like how and how do we how do we take that to its sort of illogical conclusion? Like what okay, there's this this Marco Polo restaurant

I hope you didn't call that another guy

Which one?

From Mr Mr Bad Review guy.

Oh him. He needs to be kept to I think he's spiritually the opposite to this other He sees it as his like greater foot cause in life. Oh he was a sweet art. But uh you know, horrendous to be around. Uh but he uh yeah, so I just started having people write these reviews and I was getting family and friends roping them into it.

Gotta get co conspirators, that's right.

But I was filming little bits, you know, because I was mainly writing at the time. I wasn't doing documentaries yet. Right. I only went on to do those. So I was I just liked writing because It was really nice to write something, it's just you, you it's your voice, you have an editor, you collaborate and that's it. Right. Whereas when you're making T V which I do now, there's thirty, forty of you and that's great, but it's different. Yeah, it's it's different.

Um so everyone's jumping in.

Everyone's leaving. Yeah. We're going up the rankings, feels serene.

Wait, wait. So you start trip you start going up on the TripAdvisor rankings. Is this that moment where you go like, Oh shit, we're on to something?

Yes. Yeah, exactly. It was it it it was we were number eighteen thousand out of eighteen thousand in London and then slowly it was like, you know, within about six weeks we were up to number one thousand four hundred or something like that. And I was higher than my local restaurants in in Dulitch where I was living and I was like

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean it it genuinely does. It gets me. Like this is it. It's like I could have easily been on the other end of that phone. I'm not saying I'm better than that.

We all are. That's what I mean. It's so funny how that like it always doesn't matter who you are. Yeah. Fully booked for the when you find out the thing you want is has been overly wanted and it's gone. Yeah. You can't now you can't stop pining. You can't stop thinking about it. You know what I mean?

And that was like my mantra from then on, just kept on saying. Exactly. And it was like, you know, started out cute few calls a day, I was getting emails, then it's just starts good just keeps on going up and up and up. And the people that you tell no to are the ones who a hundred percent will call back ten times, you know. And it's it was just the momentum just started gathering and that would bing so that that

I like that.

But like, you know, it was like it it it it it it just got more exciting the the m the more it went on. Got more real. People like the local council being like, We want to relocate you to an entrop uh an area we're gentrifying at reduced rates.

No way. Come on. What are you talking about?

applying for jobs, things like that. Like it was it was very it the plat it showed how

Government is reaching out to you. And offering you tax incentives.

Yeah.

But you don't exist.

Yeah, that ended up.

Jay, can I tell you something? You've exposed a lot about politics. This is my thing. And politicians. This is th this is what I mean about you, Uber, is like you I don't need I don't think you understand what an impact you've had on my life from afar. Because you you're the reason like Ryan who's like sitting here, like Ryan, w we we'll always like try find food, try find and Ryan's like a super foodie guy. But one day

Yeah.

And then afterwards look at the reviews.

Interesting.

Shocked at how many times the review doesn't match up with how you felt about the review. Yeah. Your personal experience. Just your personal experience. But a lot of that came from you because we were like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Yeah.

That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Cause you know sometimes you're in a neighborhood and then all of a sudden there's random restaurants that pop up and you're like, Who how did these restaurants get here? Yeah. You know the first restaurants to move into a neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's just a bunch of Ubers, no offense. Yeah. Yeah. Taking chances.

All the other Jehovah's Witnesses are new.

So okay, so this thing so okay, now you're at like the peak.'Cause I mean once government's calling you it's it's it's on now.

Yeah, I mean I was getting called constantly. And and what the the clientele starts changing from like locals to then like tourists to then like uh influencers, uh different people from like Kind of who were high up professionals, like having their teams reach out, calling

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I think I can say it now because uh I don't think they exist anymore. But like Universal Studios wanted to bring their teams uh their team over. Yeah, yeah. It was kind of inter I've never I've actually never said that before, so there you go. Uh and and it was like

You were like, I need to get into this restaurant. Six weeks.

Yeah. Um yeah, and then it was just like one of those things where uh I was in a meeting actually with Vice is uh we were talking about another project wanted me to do and my phone kept ringing it. I'm like, what the fuck is going on? And I was like, Well actually I've been working on this other thing on the side and they were like, Oh wow, this sounds like a epic

Yeah.

Filming. And I was like, Well, I've been filming all my me taking all the calls. I've been filming myself. So yeah, okay, sounds good. And I wanted to write about it anyway, but that that was the first time where I was like, Okay, maybe maybe I could do on camera stuff as well. This could this feels like it could be that. So then they started I started thinking about how I wanted to what what next? And I thought

This is how big it is.

Yeah, I know.

Do you have a table for two?

But the blue pill.

Six weeks.

But like yeah, uh there were people who were leaving reviews who I didn't make leave the reviews, so it was almost like they said up the kudos of having been there. Mm on and so you know, I reviewed the

But they were leaving five stars. Yes.

Yes, exactly.

That's crazy, man. We have we have now we have reached peak.

Yeah. And it was uh yeah, that was sort of I think it was n uh November Two thousand seventeen, that was then, and when we became yeah, the number one rated restaurant.

Congratulations man. Yeah.

It was it was crazy. I was I was uh remember checking the thing'cause we'd gone up, we were like top three and then we went down to number eight and I was like, Wow, what a story.

Top ten were you upset about the number eight?

No, I was just like this is insane. And then it was number one and I was like

You're happy.

It's just like one of those moments where you know that your life's changed and it's not'cause it's such an insane thing that would happen. For it to happen was so crazy and so unlikely that I was like, Oh, okay, this is this is probably the craziest thing that's ever gonna happen to me

You think you you had maybe a little bit of an imposter syndrome, like you felt like you didn't deserve to be there?

You know what?

This is where are you

No, I did think no I've worked hard to get here.

The investment, the website, the burner phone double life.

Well the funny thing is is like no quads.

So so now it tips in. So now now th this this is what I love because I remember seeing the footage of the people, the the night.

Yeah.

The night itself. This was just like where I was like peak. So So what is it supposed to be? Opening night?

Yeah.

So this is this is where you've changed another thing. I'll tell you what I've changed in my life. Okay. This literally happened because of you. Really? Literally, because of you. And then you'll tell the story of the night. So when I order food now, especially like in New York, but when I order food I'll go to a restaurant, like I'll see any place, whatever it is. Restaurants are strong, so we could take out whatever the food is, but now I cross reference it with like an actual map.

Yeah.

And then if I you know on the little street thing, I'll zoom in and I wanna see this place exist. So you do the three sixty Yo, yo, yo, let me tell you something. Try it. You're gonna see how many times the place doesn't exist.

It's that's true.

You're gonna see But the food does. Yo, you're gonna see how many times Was it urine cakes all over again? My friend, the place doesn't exist. Now apparently they they came up with a term they call it ghost kitchens. Yeah.

Yeah.

The place doesn't exist. So London. Even in even in South Africa, in Johannesburg now, it started as well. Yeah. I'll be like, Oh, this place looks good. The food looks good as well. That's the main thing. It's got good reviews. Yeah. And then I go, but where is this? I'm like, I don't know. I've never seen this. And then I look Nowhere.

And they also they do this thing as well, they have three different names for the same menu.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. They'll try something that will get the like Zuma whatever girls and then something will get millennial guys, whatever. They'll have different marketing schemes.

Same thing, same place.

Same menu, yeah.

Yeah. Same place. And all of this changed because of what you did. So tell us about the night'cause'cause now you you took it like I mean You went fully into this thing. Because uh the reviews is like, all right, whatever, but then you you're like, I'm gonna make a real night and people are gonna come to it.

Yeah, it was I mean I lived in it, it was like a pretty much a shithole and uh it was you know it was

which was number one

It was number one. And it was, you know, it we didn't look like the best restaurant in London. It looked like just a Um and uh I kind of thought, you know, I'd done so much and I'd proven this big point about online reviewing and like this platform was able to be manipulated. Wow, the crazy all these people want this thing, but there's almost like the the the most crazy thing would be to now try and get away with opening it for one night only and serving sort of real customers real food.

Try having shaving foam on urinal cake. If you'll be happy.

It sounds like a balanciaga piece. Uh it's not them. Uh but uh and then we added we had uh uh two um American newlyweds from from California. I know, I know, I know. But they w they were like oh you know, they've been in they've been in Paris eating on the banks of the Seine the night before. And then yeah, there was they were the the final table or two they were gonna be eating at the shed. So it's quite hard to like I wanna like con just

Um, and it was cold, it was kind of wet, so I borrowed all of these heaters from my neighbours. I went around asking do you want to have a borrow these for the night? Got'em a bottle of wine. Uh I borrowed uh my friend ran a cafe around the corner, so I borrowed a load of the tables and the chairs.

Yeah.

Exactly. But the whole point and I had a table of two of two of my mates eating on the roof on a table which looked like bizarre it looked like something from a cartoon. But it was the whole thing was like I was trying to short circuit their brain as much as possible. To try and make'em not engage with the reality they

You are separating them from reality.

I was trying, yeah. So we the way that I did it as well is I met them on the street and blindfolded them and walked them two or three minutes down and then down this garden path. Because I genuinely thought if they'd have seen the front of the house and they'd sit it, they and and we had a it's all coming back to me now I'm talking about it. We had uh

Yeah.

It basically we're there we opened for about three hours trying to think of like a way of encapsulating the vibe. It was it was cool it was weird. Um and I'll I'll focus on the newlyweds, the the ones who are on their honeymoon. Uh because we I remember they did they look kind of like

I like I like that it's like a super st I really do like that you created a from this moment is like a you know spin-offs. Yeah, it's like an ocean's eleven that then everyone went off to do their own thing now in the world.

Yeah, yeah.'Cause at the time it was like yeah. I don't even know. We were all just like we were like, This isn't gonna work. Um yeah, and she she was like put it down. She was like Namaste and then she like She disappeared to a part of the restaurant.

It's funny.

And it was like I we I was thinking that

Made you deserve number one.

No, it just made me think that we trust like online hype more than what we put in our mouths.

Trust all hype. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like we trust I mean. Yeah, th that that whole you know, here's what I what I loved about the scam is

Yeah.

But you you don't realize how you how it's actually happening to you. Do you know what I mean? I think I think there are very few people. There's obviously people on the fringes but I'm sure like most people don't realize that this is happening to them. Like you're saying, the the yum around you. Yeah.

Yeah.

You sit at a restaurant. Yep. The person next to you is like, Mm. Oh my god. Oh my god. And you're like, What I what are they? Oh that looks good. What are they having? You lean in and you're like excuse me, what a restaurant, if I'm undecided.

Then it gets interested around how many I mean I mentioned it slightly earlier and it's a hundred percent true, how many bots are now used on social media.

Isn't it isn't it like forty percent now? Is it forty?

I don't know the number, but yeah It's a shocking number.

Remember reading the other day that about forty percent of all internet like comments and

Content. And that, how can that not shape your reality? If like my one review for the Greek restaurant in whatever, Peckham can influence people's minds and my mind, then like how can that not? Forty percent of everything we're reading is it's I'm did you see that the other day where they changed the they very briefly changed the Twitter or X, I'm not calling it X, Twitter policy so that w that where you could see where the account was based. Do you see that?

I did not see it.

That was interesting. And loads of quite prominent, noisy accounts were all just based in uh India. And they were saying, you know, I'm based in the US or I'm in. No, no, no.

And then they changed it back.

Oh, they put it back immediately. And it was it was it was really interesting. Uh and I think basically India, the significance of that is a load of the a load of the butt farms are in India. Um so it's cheap, you know, loads of online labour is based out in India, isn't it? Um Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So I was a I mean, I just thought, well, there's bigger and better scams to come. No, I didn't think that No, no, I I didn't know.

I believed you. In society we we struggle with certain paradigms because you know, they're they're not they're not physical, they're not easy to touch, they're not like uh Let's say we found out and I I mean we still don't really do much about this, but if we found out that certain people, companies, actors, whatever were poisoning forty percent of our water. Yeah.

What do you mean?

If you're selling something dangerous as long as you put someone in there that's why they had to put regulation for advertising with cigarettes. People were having such a good time smoking. Yeah. Janet was the same. Mainstay was just like the rest of your life. Then people were just having a good time. The Marlboro man, all of this stuff. It was once you put the human element.

It's this woman and she's by her bed and you know the the caption reads that you know the thing and and and you know that voice comes on it's like Wh why you choose the person in your life? You know that voice you know the voice. You know you know that person.

No but it's uh

But you know that voice. But you know that book. Because there's only like the two voice there's the two voices, right? There's the one that's like when I found out I was good.

The AI one.

And then there's the other one's like, These men were fighting their way out of the land. Yeah. But this one was like You saw that voice. I love that voice. It would be so funny if they were real people somewhere. You know, there's just somebody like Like at a restaurant and like I called for a table for two. Could you tell me what time my reservation will be ready? So like and in the video there's this woman and she's by her bed and the caption reads

Yeah.

Who was filming this? Did he start filming? Yeah. W because you found out your dad died in this moment. This you're saying that you found it out in this moment. So when did he how did this And he was just punc like he was just puncturing this world. This this thing you're talking about.

And the whole point was that it was democratized, right? That was the whole thing. It was like, okay, anyone you know, I can just do whatever. And now it's like now it's almost like every single member of the public views themselves as an influencer.

Oh that's fully what it is.

And then and then there's a cut there's these people above who get you know, who get paid money to do who actually get still get money from brands.

Although a soldier's almost autonomy of some sort. Because you can name your price, you can do it your way, but we'll obviously have the last say of how it's done and then you can just put it out there and you have no control of it from then onwards. Yeah.'Cause that's what happens with influencers, but

Bye.

And then all of a sudden two steps running away, blah, explode. And people start finding that funny. And they thought, well, if I have a package that gets delivered and I want to make sure that then I think to myself, this, these people are actors. 'Cause the packages always explode before they get to where they're going.

When that's

No one ever gets out of shock.

the when they fill it with like confetti.

No no with paint.

Fat paint, yeah, yeah.

But no one has ever gotten inside the car and the thing exp because that would have been funny and genuine at the same time. But everyone is and I'm like, Oh, there's one way to sell this thing. Yes. And the packages are unmarked. Who gets an unmarked package delivered to their

door. But even just the pump in of viral content from di from did ring doorbells that is packages being stolen is an amazing advert for a ring doorbell. You're so right. I've never even thought about that. That sucks.

Yeah. Have I punctured your reality? I mean you constant you are a puncture in my reality. That's I mean, come on. I'll drink that. Yes. No, it's just it's like I yeah, I Because I because I understand that, you know, living life is the paradox of what is and what isn't all the time. So I I don't ever want to be one of those people who goes nothing's real. Everything's fake.

Yeah.

So there's certain constructs that society has to agree on for things to like a traffic light. I'm always fascinated by traffic lights. Yeah. 'Cause I go like it's just the colour. I really I don't know, I swear all my life. I don't know why I get I like get giggly when I'm at a traffic light and then I go, guys, this is not real. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's like it really makes me happy when I see people Stop or go.'Cause I'm just like I'm like yo, it's

It was Juba.

Like when I see a car screech to a halt. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm like I never see the same anymore. No, so so but society needs these things. Acceptable absurdity. Yes. Society functionally needs Artificial constructs for us to function. Language, religion, culture, all of these things.

Is it uh uh there's that book that Harold Garfinkel book in the 60s, or uh something studies of ethnomethodology or something like that, where he uh he had a

You're gonna have to you're gonna have to go with

No, no, no. It's exactly what you're talking about. It's basically is a I I I find academic writing often really bad and really hard to get into because it's just so dense. Well academics can't write and they kinda hard hide behind language to cover it up.

Shots fired.

and that's not their job

No, no, no.

To be an academic, but you know what I mean? It's like uh when you what I've got like you know, you have writers who then read all that and then make it like someone I wanna read. But anyway, there's this book that he wrote, this Harold Garfin called Guy, I think this is So she um and he just had a load of his students doing loads of really absurd things that subvert I think it was in New York maybe, uh subvert the um just like things like the rules of

I'll check it out.

Because it's just like it's It's th they're just they're just very funny. It's funny.

Well it just breaks how you Exactly how you think reality's

The perfect one would be all right, loads of students. He's gonna get all of his students to wait at the same set of traffic lights and the whole day they're gonna cross on the red on when it is don't cross. That that would be like an experiment he might do. Yeah. That's like an example.

And then you see what happens to the people around.

Yeah exactly.

Because you see where the tipping point is if one person crosses a r at a red light. Are they gonna follow or not? No one will. Two people, no one w three and then you get to a tipping point where like the group does it and you see a person go, Oh, I guess that's what we do and they just like they just waddle across with you.

Yeah, yeah.

And if you all turn and were like, what are you doing? They'll be like, ah but it but it Don't do that in the middle of traffic. No, but it I I don't know, man. I just I just think like Yeah, like the reality that we accept or the reality that causes us to fight, the reality that causes us to hate other people, the reality that causes us to think the way we think is so fragile. Yeah.

Yeah.

Don't press. We've got more what now after this.

I did another I did another so I met a fill a couple of years ago with Channel Four, which is like part of the BBC. It's like uh it was all about Amazon because you mentioned Amazon ring doorbells.

The urine. Oh, I love this one, man. Tell me about it. This the urine I'll give you the backstory and then you you you gotta tell the so remember a story came out um about Amazon workers being so pressed in their environment in the warehouses. Everything in their environment was timed, their pr their performance was measured, they're tracked across the floor.

Exactly.

Yeah. And then just carry on working. They no one would leave. No one would so yes, modern day sweatshop. And then the story like blew up and it was like the Amazon workers are peeing into the bottles and then Amazon was like

No, don't dust it for fingerprints.

Yeah. They but they but they didn't. They they basically and they were like, Oh, we're looking into this but it's not what you this is no, this is fabricated, blah blah blah blah blah. But anyway, so that was the story. Yeah. I now hand over to my my s my favorite scam artist in the world.

So I did the so basically I yeah, I did this film, the hour long special about Amazon a few years ago uh two years ago. And uh it um one of the things I did is I went and worked in one of the warehouses, which is near where I grew up in but uh Feckenham. I got a job. Uh I worked there undercover and I had a camera on.

But how? Uber you see you I need you to explain this. He's white. This is Can you stop with the how already? He remembered blue eyes and blonde hair.

It's true.

True. Because can I tell you what's funny about Uber stories is in Uber stories he gets a job as part of a scam. He's like Then there's someone else like I just want the job. How did you get the job? Who is the reason why? Who was the reason why Idris Alba will never be James Bond? And never just work anywhere.

It's true. No, you're absolutely right. Like you're absolutely right. Remember when I first started doing stuff of Isaac?'Cause I grew up somewhere I was a hundred percent white basically. In the Feckenham was a hundred percent white.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on.

Like you know, about half an hour away in in in Reddit, she's the cloak well, that's not even half an hour, twenty minutes away in Reddit.

but that can I tell you

Working no and I mean particularly since I've moved here, I'm like, oh no, like I've had to obviously completely ha be educated in that by by friends, you know, and and I trying to get my head around that. Um but yeah, it's massive. And I was an idiot for I wished I was taught about that in school.

Yeah, but here's here's the thing that's complicated about it. I'm not an academic, but I fight with academics about this all the time. I think some of these concepts while true, are not explained correctly to people. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So I remember when people would talk like you know,'cause some of these things become uh you know in vogue fashion in in moments, you know, like so white privilege. There was it really had its moment. Check your privilege.

Privilege.

Köszönöm szépen! Yeah yeah, po you post that black square. You know what I mean? So and leave a review.

Five stars.

Ha ha.

Joke chicken, fantastic.

Ha ha ha. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

The guy carry goat. And I got carry goat.

Yeah, they go they go on the fish and chips, one star.

The um Yeah, yeah. The food was terrible, but I understand why. Five stars. No. So here's here's so here's why this is just my opinion. But I mean a lot of these things are even the academic ones, even and that's maybe my first issue, by the way. Is that a lot of the time academics will make it seem like it isn't their opinion. They distance themselves. You see what I'm saying?

From

From So they they'll they'll put forth an idea. Yes. And they work in a space where they study and they were research. Yes. Yes, but it is an opinion. Right. Yes. Right? It is an opinion. It may be an opinion that holds true for the most part, but it is still an opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So The argument I would have with people is this.

You may be wrong, but You also have to acknowledge the way you're explaining this to somebody i is isn't correct, right? Because you make it seem like it's a hard and fast rule that is constant in every single environment in the exact same way all the time. Okay. So when people are like, Why privilege, check your privilege, why When I would talk to white people and who would go, the the thing that I saw people struggling with is there were people who like

is one of my favorite like ideas for a sport because even though golf is the most you know what I mean like not in just it's the most like remote it's like this is like elite.

Not in Scotland.

Yeah.

You'll grow up on a council estate playing goal. Yeah. Yeah, that's where it's from.

Yeah, the home. Because of the home of it. Exactly.

Whereas cricket in England's poshed properly poshed. And like and I don't know South Africa, I'm assuming

No, yeah, it's yeah, cricket schools are the one of the best schools. Yeah, but cricket itself though in the township they play it as well. Do you know what I mean? much anymore but yeah we have a

Huge South Asian dierspor in England. No South well, very few South Asian Asian players play for England. It's kind of insane. It's all posh private school.

Oh yeah that m I mean that but that's who you know, where you know.

weird, isn't it?'Cause football has become democratic.'Cause you like you know, it's it's it's I think it kind of always has been to be honest. But football is democratic, whereas it's interesting that like these old school sports like cricket, we're on a different thing now.

It's always like

him to not be going to a park school. I just want him to go be gone to a normal

Amen.

Go to normal state school. That's all.

So wait, all the English cricket players are like

Most of them. But then the the really great ones are always not posh kids, but This is my coming in my like uh my this is th that's the thing, we're I mean this is a classic, isn't it? But we're obsessed with class in England. It's it's different.

But you see now that comes back to what we're saying about privilege.

Yeah.

The loop of privileges there's If you're not careful, you make people think that that privilege attached to your whiteness is a constant thing. Yeah. Whereas you see like in golf they go to your handicap.

Uh Rennie at a lodge.

Maybe, maybe. But she she said something about she said w the phrase and I'll paraphrase it was she said f about the US and many places. She said, I can't wait. for America to finish the conversations about race. So that they can understand that they're just at the bottom of discussing class. Yeah. Because race is a proxy for class for most people. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's shorthand for class. It is shorthand. So it's like, yes, black attached to being poor. Poverty. Yes, but it

Yeah, I would say that just having an accent. I have a subtle accent, but and I've lost it the more time I've spent in London and the more time I spent nine years in London, I've been here for two years. Um but like uh it's interesting.

I can assume even like the way you say class, I'm sure people are like Are you sure you can afford this?

Like it. Yeah, but you're you're either part uh you're either part of the I mean you let you know, you're either part of the say four percent of the population in the UK go to private school.

uh r uh they represent most of the executive positions in all the companies. Yeah. They m and now they're getting into entertainment, which is fantastic as well. Let's love it. Let's keep let's have that. That's fantastic. Uh but like you know, you either want so basically it's like and then they have you have hereditary positions of in the government, the House of Lords, you have lordships that you can inherit, all that stuff. So we still have like a proper

Yeah but I yeah, but I would argue in the US what happens is money becomes the class like so m yeah so i what happens is yes race is a big one. But then one of the tools that can help you is money. So and not necessarily the possession of it, but the access that it gives you to things. Yeah. So if you if you are in the business class lounge. Right.

Th there's moments where I I think you know what I'm saying. There's certain racisms or w whatever you want to call it, prejudice where where you just have to laugh at it and poke it. So we're standing in and it's very distinct. We're flying Qantas Airlines. That's really how you get around Australia in that way. Yeah. And I think we're flying out of Perth.

Okay. Away suitcase.

The cockiness of business class. One of the employees comes over, she walks up to us. Walks past Sebastian. That was the key thing. Walks past Sebastian, who's like in front of us. Says nothing to him, comes straight to me, and then goes, She's like, Oh, excuse me, oh, this is a business class line.

Oh god.

Yeah. And then I said, Yes, yes it is. And then she just stared at me'cause now she was hoping that I would now do the whole like, Oh Sorry, I'm not it but I was I was just enjoying it so much. I was like I was like yeah and the way I said it I was I was like yes this is the business class and then she went pick the wrong guy Are you in business class? And then I was like, why else would I be studying in this line?

Who's asking?

Oh, alright, I just w I wanna show if you're in business class. Then I was like, I don't know if this guy's in business class. But she didn't know that I knew Sebastian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm just pointing at this random white guy. Then I was like, I don't know if he's in business class. Yo, are you in business class?

That's... that's...

But that's what I mean is like we I feel like what we don't do enough of is the

Handicap analogy is really is really good.

Yeah, we don't we don't we don't we don't discuss these things dynamically. And then and then we live in a world where and maybe the bots don't help, right? Is that we don't get into a position where we can then discuss it as people and say

Rabbit shit.

Times are tough. Times are tough. She can never live that one time. Your grandfather's like, come on. It was just once. And he deserved all of it. All the shit he got, he deserved it.

That's good.

That's really good. Then so now we we we're like you know what I mean? And and and so what I what I this is w part of what I like about your work is sometimes I think as people

The academic discussion of ideas limits us Because it i w it's like how do we see the world? How do we think we see the world? How do we want to be seen to be seeing the world? How do people see us seeing the world? How do they respond to how we see the world? How do we see them seeing it's too much. It's too much. But then when you conduct it as like a just an experiment, as a thing that people do, you just do it. Yeah. Yeah. It it it first of all, I feel like it removes the lens.

It's trying to the yeah, it's what I was trying to do is it's sort of uh Trying to figure out like what is a it's essentially like that same thing of like what is a symbol or a often in like in in the world, like the stuff that catches on and the stuff that actually starts changing people's minds or something is like just a really simple symbol.

Yes.

Like something yeah, I I remember when this is a an example you guys won't w won't know probably

black I'm sorry I'm sorry I I I just had you were waiting I wasn't waiting You had that in the chamber, you were like, oh yeah.

There we go.

Субтитры сделал DimaTorzok And if Eugene was written with the right.

Anyway.

Yeah, Eugene was ready for you. The blaster.

And solo.

Oh man, I've had a great time with you guys because I'm black I didn't think I was gonna say that. I surprise myself sometimes.

No, there was a guy there was this but there was a politician when we when we anyway, whatever. It was a Labour politician, there's a guy called Ed Millerband. He uh Yeah. His whole thing, he looked like he was going to become the prime minister. This was like, you know, after five years of like bad conservatives and uh lib dems. And uh he ate a bacon sandwich badly, and then it was like it was all

Yeah. Runs.

Yeah, and uh yeah, he printed like a picture of him eating a bank but struggling with a bacon sandwich and it was kind of over. It was it was bizarre. I remember that was stuck in my head, it was like there's a million examples of that if he uh I you probably sit and think of one. Uh

There was one where

Maybe Mike was one that Trump did to Bloomberg.

Killed it. Yeah, that one destroyed it. Yeah. But there's also one where um uh who who ate pizza with a knife and fork in New York? They were running for president. Was it was it Mitt Romney? Maybe it was. I don't know. It was over, just like that.

Pi pizza pizza have you ever seen the ad but this is a completely off topic. Have you ever seen the advert where Trump eats the pizza backwards? It's insane.

Can I tell you that's why I think Trump doesn't eat anything in public anymore?

But it states it backwards. Insane.

I actually didn't think of that. Thank you. You're not the BBC here.

Yeah.

Yeah. I need to see this.

It's very bizarre.

You know what what sucks though is like now in like a few years all of these things will become boring'cause people like, Oh, that's probably

Yeah.

We're losing that now.

Yeah.

Uh um

Should I Should I carry on with piss? while he pulls it up.

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Yeah.

While I prepare the phone.

While the backwards pizza is in the oven.

Yeah.

I'll prepare you a an ap an aperitif. Uh

Ha ha.

Yeah.

I love that word. Yeah. It sounds better than palette cleanser. Yeah. Palette cleanser sounds like mouthwash.

I I hope I haven't got this wrong.

There it is. Wow. This is crazy.

It's an interesting image. He survived it. It almost helped him. There.

That's what he says before he eats pizza. I love pizza so much. Give me my slice.

It's funny, mm. Is that how they do it in Queens? I mean This is

Yeah. This is a person who's probably never eaten pizza or like just lived in another world. He's like, yeah, regular people do like is this how you do it? I do it all the time. I do it all the time.

You end with the finger.

Yeah.

Bizarre. Uh yeah. So basically I went and worked at this warehouse. I got a job there. Didn't keep the job. Uh was I was uh I worked there for a few days'cause it was the closest warehouse outside of uh the one in Staten Island to Unionizing.

California. Yeah.

Yeah, just in LA. And then I was in I did it in London, the one in Queens. Every single one I've been to, and I I probably still exactly the same. There's bottles of piss outside all over the world. Um and I stopped, spoke to drivers and they told me that this was them and the reason why it worked that way, I stopped someone else and she was a manager who a dispatch manager who manages the drivers and she said

Infantile. Okay, so

So I le no no, then I put it on uh I put it on so yeah, we we as uh another thing as well was uh we spoke to female drivers who got UTIs from holding it in as well. Like so guys were pissing bottles, they would get UTI. And then listed it on Amazon as a drink, uh, said what it was on the label, didn't didn't hide what it was, was like, this is bottles of urine collected from Amazon drivers.

That's for us.

So it's like how do you break the spell a little bit? And I never once in the film said, Delete your Amazon or whatever it's like, No, no, let's just like make people think about this thing. But it ended up being like a yeah, it was crazy and you know, it uh it ended up going viral, that stump when it came out and um was basically exactly what I w I wanted it to do, you know. And I had this other whole thing about uh

Yeah.

So what I did is I ordered a load of cement from Amazon and then I went in, fill in potholes around in California and in the UK and uh filled them filled them in. And then I went down to the beach, filed for a refund, filled the packages with sand.

And then sent it back. And they just gave you your money.

Gave him my money back and I remember telling in the film that I that I made about this, I tell my lawyer and he's like, That's not clever, that's just fraud. The camera doesn't matter, you've committed fraud. But basically what I'd done and this is kind of the this is this was to make a bigger point, was I before I did any of that, I went and I made a an offshore company in Belize.

This is man.

So yeah, I managed to get around getting in trouble by using the same way that they avoid paying taxes. And uh yeah, the name of the company was Home Maintenance and Repair Corp, which as an acronym is HMRC, which is the British IRS. Um but yeah, that was like

Just do that thing.

just to have a r a chain of restaurants called the Shed and get a load of investment, whatever, burn it, what what make the take some money, do

I mean, that's one of the more recent projects you've started working on that I think has has also given me a a clearer view of how How fragile the money ecosystem is that we live in. You know,'cause like it's also it's another insane project. But you basically set yourself the target of making was it a million dollars?

A million pounds. A million pounds. Four point three million dollars.

In

90 days.

Ninety days.

Yes.

But you but you it has to be legal.

Yeah.

And it had to be

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. So this came out this two months ago. This is another latest film for British television. But what it r you know, that film, what it it was a kind of reaction to uh hustle culture, you know, and like how much of our cultural oxygen is just around making money. And how much of that, you know

So here's what I what I what I don't like is and this happens with various different uh fields and spheres, you know, it's When people talk about hustle culture.

Mm-hmm.

It's now been co-opted by a group of people who sort of because hustling was a thing that a lot of people did in like a really meaningful way. I I know it sounds crazy to say that, but it's like a lot of people hustle. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

We all have something.

Yeah, you hustle to do your thing. Your parents hustled your hustling was like I gotta I gotta hustle. I gotta

No, you're right. Yeah, yeah.

Really what this this is is like it's scam culture. It's not hustle culture. It's scam culture. It's how can you make as much money as possible? As quickly as possible. As quickly but also m most importantly most importantly With somebody else being the victim in some way, shape or form. Are you selling some sort of online call?

Yeah.

Yeah. Are you getting people to invest in a thing that will never pay money back? Are you you know?

whole and this is the thing that you you're a hundred percent right and I think that the thing that's as I said from the start of when I started doing what I was doing to now

Yeah.

The whole world's changed and now we are living in the fake reality. Like the we are all we're all dining at the shed. We we're all eating the microwaveable ready meals. We're all eating my egg on a foot like Uh the way that I see I look at the stock market, the biggest eight companies, how many of them actually NVIDIA apart from them, they make chips. Yeah. How many of them the the the value of these stocks now uh uh have no semblance to reality?

No.

It's like now the everybody is making a shed. And it's all it's it's all been re the whole economy's been remade. Like no one's actually making anything. So it's like when you were saying about um it's you're exactly right about the culture of these money the hustle culture thing is the grift is taking place when you are convinced that this person can lead you to the promised land of financial security.

Yeah.

The moment like my mum and dad when we were kids were um lost a load of money in a pyramid scheme. Well not a load, but enough that it was significant in our house. And uh a very popular one, um which everyone would know. But like that um It that like could have made me kind of a little averse to those types of things when I hear about constantly having people say, Oh, you should buy into this crypto client. Yeah, yeah. Buy into this uh this this um

Yeah. That's that's the that's the biggest thing for me is like the hard work that people are doing and the 'Cause what what they do is they're really good at I find they're really good at hiding in crowds is the way is the way I like to think of it. Yeah. So what they'll do is they go like

Exactly, exactly.

Right. I'm not saying don't go. Yeah. But ask yourself where they get their money from. If that person gets all their money from you. From you, telling you how to make money. Yep. They aren't going off and doing investment things that they're say they aren't, they're making their money from you. Yeah, it's like getting a financial advisor once you're successful. You're like, where was the advice? Yeah, like that's true. Yeah, it's like all of these things, if if if we're not careful

The crypto thing's fascinating. Making this film, so it was literally a follow doc. A lot of the stuff I do is way more like I'm like it sounds a mess, but I mean the re the shed thing, no, but like the Amazon thing, planned out. I know kinda what I'm gonna do. You never know you're going to get caught when you're working at Amazon on the floor and they pull you off and say, what the hell are you doing here?

You should have been like man, should my life fell apart, man. Can I be?

Before you kick me out, can I use the toilet?

You know what's funny is after they after they kicked you out, that you got a f you got a notice on your record they like left early. Yeah.

I remember getting loads of emails from them saying why haven't you shown up to work? I'll see you again. I remember saying I I said to like'cause I had to get training to do undercover'cause I'm like, this guy's uh basically a a a a bullshitter and we're letting him do a journ a proper journalist job here, like we're training him. And I was like, If I get caught can I just say I'm doing undercover bus? And just say Congratulations. Congratulations.

You did it. They found him.

They were like, We are gonna rescind your permission to do this. No. Uh but uh yeah, so overcoming back. Yeah, so that that doc, the one about making a million, but you know, you follow me around for ninety days. The thing that I just kept on getting Thrust down uh'cause it was it's basically I moved to New York while I was making that. Yeah. So it's reacting to being in New York. It's a very unique culture, I think, in terms of

Yeah.

Hustle, just hustle. Yeah. And the way and that comfort with which people and I don't necessarily mind this, but it's it's very different to Europe. The way people talk about money, the way people breathe money, the possibility of money, the way it moves around. You know, you meet someone, you know, one of our main contributors in that is the co founder of Venmo, who's got Ikram. And within ten minutes of meeting him, he's like,

Yeah, but but you see the the the the sentence that isn't completed is this is this is what I like about these money stories. They say you would have made a million. Right. What they should say is you would have taken a million.

Right, right, right.

That's my issue with all of these ideas. There's no way you made it. Yeah. Yeah, because you you you didn't make the thing. It comes from somewhere. Because if if we look at like that.

That's a hundred percent right.

¿Qué es lo que I'm saying?

I know I do that.

I would say people used to use the phrase you're gonna make money is because really it was an exchange of a service of a good. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I need a leather shoe from you, Eugene. You need oranges from you and we're gonna use money to help It makes it makes sense.

It's a promise.

But then at some point it became I'm saying this is worth this. I'm gonna take all of your guys' money. It's gonna be worth this for a moment and then it's not gonna be worth that instantly overnight. All I've done is I've gone and then sucked in all your money. Yeah. It's true. I've just sucked in all your money.

Nothing that exists within that coin is stuff that other people who have also had hope of putting That's the that's and that was like what m happened to my mum and dad when we were kids. It's the same thing, you know, it's the same thing. So look, I'll be honest, I have no regrets. I would rather not have that money and that sounds high and mighty, but I just wouldn't. Like I just

But also those things are shortcuts to jail. Well

No, you never know.

That's true though. Well, I mean now people are getting pardons and now people are Yeah, yeah, but those things are all temporary. They genuinely are. I think they're all temporary. It's a shortcut to jail at the end of the day.

It that's like see that's like

When do you stop?

Yeah. It's true.

You put five hundred in, you make a million. Why would you not put in the next five hundred thousand to make ten million, a hundred million? When do you stop? It's true. And then we wonder why these guys get to that point. It's because along the way

But it exists as a loop the way that the that it's regulated now is exists as a sort of loophole, doesn't it, at this at this moment in time. A year ago. changed. They've now it's now not a security. Crypto is not a security. So it's regulated by some other de some other regulatory body that has like one guy one guy at a desk.

It's just the guy who vibes he just vibe checks it now. He just sits then he's like cool.

Yeah. Puts his finger in the water. That's all right.

So so Yeah. What would you say your your dream and your go'cause Like when I r when I when I read how people have tried to categorize you, people call you a prankster, people call you a but I don't know. It's sort of evolved in your world and now there's like a mission behind it in some ways. What would you what would you say you're trying to achieve with these films when when somebody's watching them? What what are you hoping to reveal or what are you hoping to change or w you know?

Yeah, I mean I suppose that it's hard I defin there's definitely a world view, isn't there? There's definitely and that's as I've had the privilege of of doing this now for nearly ten years, which is fucking nuts. Um like you begin to try uh take your work more seriously and you understand like, okay, I I know what I can offer and I and I can see things about the world that I've learnt in this weird journey. Yeah. Like, you know, I can look at the the Amazon

Culture I always think culture is a manifestation of what the society is experiencing. Yeah. It just has to be. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But it and becomes easier to Like why is the clothing popular at the time? Why what is or isn't popular? Why is it d do you get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. All of that is just it's like the plant that grows from the soil and then it's sometimes it's hard to know what's happening in the soil. But if you look at the plant you can know. Yeah.

It is interesting. This is the first time in my life I've been an immigrant somewhere. That's quite interesting. And moving here for the first time and being I you know, I moved to London and then I moved to I moved to New York. And uh that is an interesting experience. And I I suppose that's what I'm propelled by at this moment in time.

Is being the outsider. Yeah. Yeah. It's a different world.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of I feel like I'm making no sense at the moment.

I I think I'm realising what you're saying. I think two things that I picked up from here is uh We're constantly fighting this battle between gatekeeping and democracy. Um, advertising was one of those. It was a well regulated and gate kept industry until it was not.

Yeah. I yeah. Great. I mean, as you were sp saying that other I think that I was thinking about you watching it when it came out. I mean I wouldn't even think about that, the idea that you were watching this restaurant thing.

I never watched it and I heard it from you two.

Right. Yeah, yeah. So you've never you've never oh amazing. All right. So if it made sense to you, hopefully it made sense to you. Oh no, I watched.

Yeah. Yeah. But that but that's why I say that's what the thing, that's what it does. Yeah. I love that you said uh scientist or experiment or sociologist, whatever it is. It is finding the right lens or mirror, putting it on society, and if you show it in the right way. I you know, I think of one of the most impactful videos. It went viral. It keeps going viral every few years. It's from a long time ago in the US though.

Have a fun Sunday.

Yeah. And then and then they sent like black teenagers to go and do it. Yo, minutes. While they were just like standing there, people like, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? And they were like, no, my bike, I locked the I didn't I lost the key. They're like, no, no, I'm calling the cop.

That is gonna be, I tell ya, on the sign.

Okay. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Продолжение следует...

Well thing.

in America, that that's good enough for me.

And as you leave secondable say, Did you? Oh no no. Did. I'm sorry. Two miles down. He did. Oh man, Uber, thanks for joining us. Thank you very much.

Really great.

Now with Trevor's produced by Day Zero

M. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jess. Rebecca Chain is our professor.

By Hannes Brown.

Join me next week.