Meet Jon Stewart – One of My Favorite People [VIDEO]

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That's what I want to do. I want to get like a dynamic mic. I probably rock a little bit too much. I want to get like a dynamic one that moves with people. Yeah, I'll try not to fidget. I'll just sit. No, I'll just keep watching. You know what happens when I'm taping is the sound engineer just keeps telling me to not rock my desk because I have a tendency to do this and this and this. You make the sounds. That's right.

I would hit the buttons. That was mine. You would hit the buttons? Yeah, well, you know, you have the buttons on the bottom of your suit. And so I would always be doing this on the desk. And then I think they told me this week, week three of hosting. Right. And I don't think I've ever put my hands down the same on a table. Because I was so shit scared of screwing the whole thing up. You know? I was like, Trevor has turned to jumpers. Why is that? Well, he had a real button issue.

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Like, I so don't do podcasts where you go and sit with people. I'm shocked that you leave the house, to be honest. I don't do it very often. Yeah. Only for you. Can I tell you, I really take that as a, yeah. I was thinking that the other day. I was like, John. doesn't go anywhere. That's correct. I met you not going anywhere. It's one of the worst reputations to have because when you do show up somewhere, people are just like...

So what's going on? It almost feels like your parents have come home. That's hilarious. Why are you here? And you're like, I am allowed to go out. I just mostly choose to not go. Have you always been that way? Yes. Why?

It's one of the reasons I think I got into stand-up. I am very, which seems sort of contradictory, but I'm very introverted. And so I don't get energy from... socializing oh yeah no i'm the same okay you're the same yeah yeah i'm the same so like when i was younger i would bartend to give me the illusion of being so i worked in bars forever

because you felt like you were out yeah but you didn't have the idea where you had to like sit with somebody and socialize you were doing something you were so you could focus on task at hand comedy same way You show up. It's a Friday night. It's a Saturday night. People are out there on dates. They're having fun. And what are you doing? Looking at my notes. Was that? No, no, no. I'm going on at five. I don't have. I can't.

So I always prefer that. Huh. No, it's okay. Here's the thing. I'm like that, but I don't prefer it. Oh, really? Yeah. All my friends, I think I've strategically chosen because they... push me and kick me out of the house. All of them, every single one of my friends. So modern communication has very much for me quantified the extent of my isolation because your phone will tell you.

numerically, how many people tried to get ahold of you that day on your texts or on your emails. And when I tell my kids, they just feel like, do you live in a bomb shelter? I'll be like, I got three texts today. And they'll be like, all day.

Three. Yeah, but you've always been a Luddite. Yeah, I know. Like you've always, always been a Luddite. This isn't going well. This is going great. What do you mean? This is going great. I'm being exposed. No, no, no. You know what I think it is. It's funny.

Look, I mean, I only really came to the U.S. properly when you brought me, you know? You called me. I called you on the phone. It's still the most random call of all time, John. It's still the one that I still don't understand. I called up Trevor.

I saw your standup. I saw like two minutes of your standup. And I was like, that guy could do my job. This is very upsetting. What standup was this? Because I was only doing like South African stuff back then. No, no, no. It was a special that you had done. From South Africa though. I believe it was from South Africa. But I watched it. You know, I've been doing this for a long time. We always have tapes and we're always looking for new talent. And there was a authenticity.

but also an insight. Like there was just, you had, you had it. Son, let me tell you something. I don't know how to define it, but you had it. It wasn't the dimples. It was a whole other thing. It was. No, I just remember the material was so insightful. Thank you. But well, like. And there was a warmth. There was all these things that I thought like, oh, that dude, like that doesn't just happen. You can't fake that. You can't. There is a certain level of artistry, craftsmanship.

those authenticity, those things that come together and you smell it like immediately. And also the converse, like I can pop a tape in and go like, oh. the audience is nervous for that poor fella. Oh yeah. That's take that out. It was, it's sort of like, uh, what is it? Dave Portnoy's one bite. Everybody knows the rules. Like same thing with comics. A lot of times, like one bite, everybody knows the rules and you watch it and go like,

eight, six, nine, two. You had that. And it's rare. And I'd watched enough tapes to know that it was rare. And I go, who's that guy? And they go, this guy, Trevor. No. And I go, let's have him do this show. And they said, well, he's not, you know, he's not from here. He's from, let's call him. And I was like, I'm Willy Wonka and I'm about to call this dude and blow his fucking mind.

and say, like, son, your ship has come in. And so we go, Trevor, and we're like, Jon Stewart of The Daily Show in New York City. we'd like you to come in and do a bit for us. And you're like, well, my world tour doesn't end for another two months. And I was like, and it took me a while to figure out like, oh, this opportunity.

is an enormous constriction of Trevor's visibility and a giant pay cut. No, but you know what it was for me? No, you know what it was for me, actually. I'll say this. I was... I was ignorant, but I'm happy that I was, I'm really pleased that I was ignorant. Right. So I've never told you this. So I never knew who you were. Right, right. So you called me and which was also crazy. You called me. Not like an executive producer. No, no. You called me directly. I've told this part before, but like...

I'll never forget, I was in Harrods in London, the mega store that sells everything to the richest people in the world. Not because I could afford anything. I was having tea with the queen. I wish. I was looking, I was staring at an underwater scooter thing, like a moped. You know, like the old school submersible things? Yes, yes. It's like that. A thing that only three people in the world have. Exactly. And two of them are sultanates. Yeah.

I'm staring at this. I'm looking at the price. I'm going, how long would it take me? But where would I keep it? I don't live near the ocean. But this was just the culmination of my life's everything. And almost in a perfect way. My mom always says, ask God and God will respond. I went, God, how would I ever be able to afford this underwater moped? And my phone rings. Now, does your mom know God was a Jew in this story? Does she have any sense?

She'd been cheering for the wrong team. My friend, what do you mean? My mom converted to Judaism many, long ago. What? Yeah, my mom's been like... She might have taken my place. I got out of the business at 13. So you call me.

This was like, I think what I remember most about it was the comedy of the conversation. Because you called me like, hi, can I please speak to Trevor? Trevor, I was like, oh, speaking. You're like, hey, Trevor, this is, my name is Jon Stewart. I'm a comedian from New York City. Jon Stewart. You said you may or may not know me. I said, sorry, I don't know you. And you said your wording was so specific and it was so funny. You said, nor should you have. Nor should you have.

it was so self-effacing i loved it you said nor should you have and then um you said well i um i host a little show i run a little show uh in new york city it's uh called the daily show and and i was like oh For applause. No, but then I said, oh, I've heard of that show. And you said, as you should, as you should. And I remember in that moment thinking, I don't know who this person is, but I've talked about this with every comedian, like comedian.

There is a silliness that comedians possess. And you know when I felt it, I remember when I did Comedians in Cars with Jerry. Yes. Right? Jerry said to me, I am yet to meet a comedian. who answers another comedian's phone call in a normal voice. We all have like a, Aruga! Johnny boy! Well, hello! There's just like a, comedians, it doesn't matter what it is.

There's a silliness. I always answer as the queen. There you go. Hello. You see? No, John Stewart's not even right now. Don't see if I can rise. This is what I mean. So it's almost like it's the badge that we have at work. You know, like, can you come in? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a comedian. Here's my badge. So I go, this man is definitely a comedian. I know nothing about his world. I think I've heard of The Daily Show.

And the crazy thing for me was, I think you know this part just from the world, but you don't know from me. The Daily Show had the international edition, right? Yes. On CNN, I think. On CNN. Yes, like it was a news show. So in my world, you used to come after Christiane Amanpour. No. Richard Quest and like a bunch of other CNN I mean the internet and you know the international one wasn't like the US it wasn't just talking heads that shouted each other it was very welcome this

is CNN. Hong Kong markets have opened and CNN is on the ground, right? The actual news that goes on around the world, the thing that Americans are utterly and blissfully unaware of. When they were reporting live from Beirut, it was live. Live in Beirut. It was that CNN. And then once a week. And then this man would come on. And I think I saw you maybe twice, but you left an indelible impression in my brain. Because I didn't know what was happening, but I remember thinking.

There is no way this man is going to keep his job. I don't know when I found him in this journey, but he's not going to keep his job because you... you and the news and then you told a joke and then the audience laughed but then at some point they like sort of groaned but I didn't know there was a daily show and then it went back to normal news

they're like all right now it's time for someone it's africa focus here we go and i remember thinking damn that guy who's gonna lose his job he's gonna lose his job it's why context is so important you know you say that yeah But can I tell you, I genuinely believe one of the things that has happened. A lot of people ask me about cancel culture. Right. Always. I'm sure they've asked you. Always. And the thing I keep saying is, and I genuinely believe this.

I don't think there's such a thing as cancel culture. I think people criticize someone if they don't like them. I think people have more platforms to criticize now. Before, people would write a letter. Like my mom used to do that. She would write letters to the broadcaster. In upset. Yeah. Yes. Letters to the editor. One I remember was she wrote a letter. There was a South African, our Arby's essentially in South Africa. And they had a hamburger.

And the ad was Handel's Messiah. So it's like, hallelujah, hallelujah. It was that vibe, right? My mom only knew that song as a church song. Right. And this woman looked at me and she said, did they just sell a hamburger using the Lord's music? And I didn't know it was classical music. She wrote a whole letter. We went, we mailed it together.

to the broadcaster they responded very kindly and they said hey actually this was not a Christian song it's been co-opted by religious organizations but originally and she read the letter to me and we sat there together like wow I was maybe wow 10 years old 12 but i remember even then being like damn we just learned something today this is new but to that point in that world context is everything

And when I think of like cancel culture and comedy and all these things, I go, most of the time, comedians would be telling a joke in the context of a comedy space. Correct. Right? Yes. You're on stage. The audience is sitting there. We all know this is comedy. So if you look at an audience member and say, I wish you had died on the Titanic. They know you're in a comedy space. That's right. Now what happened is they take that joke.

out of the comedy space. Right. The algorithm sends it to somebody whose grandfather died on the Titanic. Oh. That's dead on. That's so fucking brilliant. That's exactly it. And... Even the people that know the context do it, do that same thing. because they want to weaponize it to hurt you. The other thing that happened in the rise of social media are those whose livings now depend on... stirring the pot. So I used to do a bit. This must be 1996, 95 something. It was about...

Jewish community, black community, Jews and blacks, you know, why are we so mad at each other? You know, come from the same history, 2000 years of abuse. We've just expressed our sufferings differently as people. Blacks developed the blues. Jews complained. We just never thought of putting it to music. Second, I did a whole thing. My grandmother wrote a blues song. Gee, it's drafty in here. You know, the whole thing.

And then there was a bit about Jews and blacks. We shouldn't fight each other. We should get together and get whitey. Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong crowd. You know, I'll go online now on like. vdare websites or like white supremacist websites no my face like in like sort of as gray as they can possibly make it in the thing Jews and blacks should get whitey. And then like this Jew thinks that, and they know, of course they know, but it's their way of.

it's an intimidation tactic but what social media is is like when we do a gig whenever you do a gig there's always people that aren't digging it you feel it yeah you work the you know seller There's always going to be a couple of tables that are like, yeah. There's always the plus ones. It's the people who came with a friend, didn't necessarily come for you or the comedy. That's right. And they're like, let's see what happens. We're not, we're not down. Yes. It would bother you in the moment.

Then you go upstairs, you have a plate of hummus with your friends, you start goofing off, all that stuff, and you walk away. Social media is, after that show, then you have to ride home in the cab with them while they talk about how bad you are. Jeez, I love that. And that's, so it's, it's, it's there. Man, that's such a great analogy. It's there to get you. It's there and it works. People say like, you should ignore it. It's like, Hey, let me ask you.

If you're walking down the street and someone yells your name, do you turn around? Yeah. Like, of course you do. You're fucking human. So you try your best not to allow it to infiltrate. the the parts of you that are more stable but it's very hard to just ah it's i think it's very unhuman yes to do that of course and that is

the economy that's grown up around it. So what they do is they try to find the thing that they think will be most upsetting. Now, obviously it loses its efficacy after a while. For me, the funniest part was my dog Dipper died. I don't know if you ever met Dipper. I used to bring him to this show, Three Legger. He's the greatest dog in the world.

He died. I announced it on the show. I was a blubbering idiot. And people on social media started responding very positively. So I did a thing I never do, which is post some shit. Here's some pictures of me and my family when we first met Dipper. We met him at a shelter down on... Crosby Street. And people started in the comment section of those pictures responding with pictures of dogs they had lost. They are sort of, so the first picture was like, this is, you know, Coco.

our Cavalier King Charles. I hope that she and Dipper are playing at the Rainbow Bridge. And, you know, this is Mr. Muggles, you know, our Cock Spaniel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the third one was, why did you change your name, Jew? And I was like, oh, right. It's got nothing to do with their lives, whatever it is, either financially or emotionally.

That's their job. But some of them, you know what the worst thing is? Some of them aren't even real. That's the scariest thing, John. Quite possibly. No. But a lot of them are not only real, but become famous. Yes, that's true. Yeah, that's true. But I think that's what makes it sad for me is when we go to context. Yeah, I've seen this happen to you. I spend a lot of time.

analyzing online. I don't spend time actually online. I don't care for it much, but I love the behind the scenes machinations of it. So I sit with engineers, they teach me about algorithms. Really? Yeah, I love this. I love, love, love this. Love it to bits. One of the things I've really loved is seeing how information gets disseminated, but specifically sent to different groups of people for a really distinct purpose.

And then I started, they showed it to me even on the tiniest things that you and I have done, for instance. Right. So I hosted the White House Correspondence Dinner. Right, right, right. Half of my correspondence dinner. was played on Fox News, was played on conservative sites, was everything I said about Joe Biden, the Democrats, MSNBC. If you've lost Trevor, no, they really were. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I never thought I'd say this, but this is quite funny.

I guess that's what happens when you get him away from the Daily Show writers. Then, I mean, yeah. Finally, those woke fuckers. You know, I guess every now and again, you can't be fine. Ironically, it was the Daily Show writers that I was with. I mean, you know, you roll with the crew.

So, but it was, and then on the other side as well, people got the clips. Right. But they show who they sent it to. It's so weird. It's like, it's not a. They send it to people purposefully. Yes, but they also send. partially, that's the key thing. I think that's the most insidious. So back in the day, Jon Stewart is at a desk and Jon Stewart says, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10. Right. You see that? You might not like three, you might not like seven.

But you saw that this man counted to 10. That's right. Now what they do is they go, take the seven, take the three, send it to all the people who hate John for saying those numbers. The other numbers, let's get it to these people and we're going to split that. And so now what happens is you have a world where people hate other people, not because they know them.

but only because they know them by a fraction of the thing they are saying or doing, which I think is, I think that's like, it's even more terrifying because- Absolutely. Well, it's also, what it tells you is the principle is merely- conflict. The principle is, is outrage and conflict. But, you know, I always wondered where social media fit in, you know, those videos of like a squirrel decomposing.

Like where the squirrel is the content and you just see over time, you're like, every single part is going to be brought back into nature. Some of it's going to go underground as nitrogen. That's what's the economy that we live in, in terms of. ideas is not really an economy of ideas. It's an economy of fragments, of fragments of ideas that are not cohesive or coherent or contextual.

but they are monetized and the aggregators come in. Something I actually wanted to throw on the show on the Mondays is this idea somehow that social media... resembles in any way free speech or that it resembles in any way the town square, because those are neutral. vessels that you fill with ideas. So let's say I go to a town square and it's a place where people to come together and it's an amalgamation of ideas and thoughts and things and a gathering spot.

So I come in and I go, Severance. Oh my God, Severance is so good. And then a couple of people come over and they hear about it and they want to talk about it because they've got some opinions on it. And then one other person walks by and goes, you're a Jew. And I go, what?

He goes, yeah, no, you're a Jew. You changed your name. You're a Jew. And I go, oh, yeah, no, we're talking about severance. I go, yeah, no, I was notified that you were here, and I just wanted to come in and go, you're a Jew. That's social media. That's the algorithm, right? Yeah. So then I go, I think I'm going to leave. And as I'm walking away, the town square goes, hey, before you go, there's someone you might want to check out.

It's the you're a Jew guy. And these little tribes, what they're trying to get you to do is be provoked so that you stop and you engage some more. The town square doesn't benefit. the longer you stay in an argument. Exactly. And it's such an interesting idea that we think it's free speech, but it's not speech. It's ultra-processed speech. It's speech in the way that Doritos are food.

It's something that has been designed by people in lab coats to get past the parts of your brain that protect your mental health. But we don't think of it in that. We think of it as a pay-in to this right that we have or an example of the highest aspiration of free speech when in actuality, it's toxic. designed as such it whatever the mental version of obesity and diabetes is that's what it's designed for yeah and and i've only been thinking about only because of

where we're at with speech in this country and how it's been co-opted as this incredible value on the right. Yeah. They're only allowing it to go on the right because they view it as helpful to their larger cause, right? Yeah. You know, societal ideological battles aren't capitalism, communism, or socialism, communism, or any of those other kinds of democracy, totalitarianism. Yeah. It's woke, unwoke.

And for them, social media is a powerful, unwoke multiplier. It amplifies that feeling for whatever. reason in terms of virality do you remember the the it was another i think it was a hearing where it was facebook it wasn't twitter and they made uh zuckerberg turn and apologize Oh, yeah, I remember this, yeah. You know, what are you going to say to the daughters up there? I think it was that they had purposefully targeted.

13-year-old girls at their low ebb. Right. And I think it was Instagram that was the worst offender. That's what it was. Yeah, yeah. And that was back when he had the bowl cut and he was still like- This is before he had the swag switch. Right. Give me the Prince Valiant, but not so long. You know, I don't want to look like a hippie. And now they've given them all permission to just be, to stop pretending.

Like there's something about this moment that I appreciate because the undercurrent of corruption. And the underlying quid pro quo and transactional nature of the way the world works is now just, it used to be hidden. And every now and again, they would call them and go, apologize to the girls.

And now they're just like, hey, you're all right. And they've made it explicit. Yeah. It's now, and without shame, it's in some ways they've come out of the closet. They're finally being themselves. They are. And now we know what we're up against, which I kind of... You prefer that? I prefer it. I would say Trump, for everything he's done or whatever, I go, Trump has been a black light on America's democracy. Yes.

Yes. You know? So everything... For someone who stays in a lot of hotel rooms, that is not the analogy, metaphor, whatever. I hope you go for there. And now I got to... Oh. He is that thing on your hotel mattress that you didn't know was there, but had slept on for two nights. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

I remember when I first came to The Daily Show. This is before I was, this is when I came and I met you and we were doing segments together. You didn't want to be on Twitter. You didn't want to be on Instagram. You didn't want, you know? No. You just had like, it wasn't even like a loathing. It was almost a, no, loathing at least means you're like against it. You almost had a, ah, this thing. Yeah. For me, it felt like socializing.

Like I don't, I like being on social media felt like socializing. Okay. I like purpose. I like purposeful interaction. I like purpose. I like intention. I like projects. I like making things. I like, you know, woodworking music. Do you still make furniture, by the way? Once we moved, I no longer have my furniture making equipment. Yeah. But I loved it. Because I heard this about you and I was like, this can't be real. No, it's real. What did you make? Oh, God.

dressers. No, John. Yeah. I thought you were going to tell me like a little, you're talking like furniture, furniture. Oh, yeah. Like big on. Yeah, yeah. I made our kids' first changing table. And then we took a little bass on cut out. We used to have cats. And so we would cut out the shape of cats in the bottom of it so that they could go in and go into there.

into their litter boxes. Where did you get this from? How do you just go into carpentry? The funny thing is you just go into it. So I'm always looking for ways to quiet my mind. that are not, you know, in the old days, it was drugs and alcohol. So, you know, once you wake up in a crack house in East St. Louis at four in the morning and go, oh, I think I'm not making good decisions. You try and come up with other ways that you can.

Quiet the noise. Are you actually saying this? Am I actually saying? That you woke up in a crack house? That's correct. Yeah, this was obviously years ago. I mean, I'm assuming many, many years ago. It wasn't. It's been a couple of weeks. No, I was working. This is like I knew you as a guy who smoked a lot. Yes. They were all sort of.

the the the product of a mind that i had trouble quieting right huh and so when i'm busy i am healthier and when i am not busy I was very unhealthy because, you know, your mind, it doesn't take long for your mind to go from, you know, hey, that was a good set to. You failed everyone that ever loved you. Yeah, yeah. And trying to find your way. And this is, I mean, I'm talking about early 90s, mid 90s, like bad.

So I had to find other ways. Then it was smoking helped, different things. But I found these kinds of hand-to-material. projects helped me disappear for hours. And it's like, I think what you would imagine a deprivation tank. There's a piece in it. And when you have that... peace, when you come out of it, it's not as though the benefit of it evaporates. It stays with you. It keeps you sort of in a grounded state.

I think that's why I was always really drawn to it, is I could just disappear in it. And you would build something. So the tangible part of having something. That was the fruit of that labor was wonderful. It was a fun thing. But that's not why. The why is the hours of measuring and sanding and fixing. fitting things together and now i'm finding that in music you know i took up drums like eight years ago seven years ago yeah and that's another form of that

The benefit of just experiencing and feeling this other state, right? My normal state of being vibrates too hot. It just does. I don't know how to stop it. So these things, the old interventions, as George Carlin said, like, they work for a bit. But after a while, don't work. Yeah. But you find these other ways. And as I've gotten older, I think the frequency, you vibrate at a slightly less intense frequency, so that helps as well.

It's very self-destructive to try and stop that if you don't do it in a way that has an idea towards longevity. You can stop it. But the things that stop it are generally the things that also stop you. In some ways, it's a chemotherapy. Drugs and alcohol can stop you from vibrating like that. But you have to be cognizant of like, what else am I killing? These other things stop it in a much more sort of positive, productive, sustainable way.

So that's, you know, that's been great. You've blown my mind. Really? Yeah, because I've always seen you, especially in my life, as like Yoda. I always call you, I call you Jewish Yoda, you know? He means that because I'm short.

no incredibly old maybe 900 years and slightly green i don't know what the lighting's like in here but the reflection off that we clearly have very different perceptions of yoda for me it was because here i was this random straggler in the universe right i was just like doing my thing yes yoda comes along and goes hey i'm gonna teach you how to raise a spaceship out of the mud but i i go the force was strong in this you see i'm like i don't even know what the force is

I don't know what the force is. You were tapped in. Yeah. And then I learned how to use a lightsaber. And then the next thing you know, it's Darth Vader and Palpatine in my life. I'm getting death threats. From the Starship Troopers. You're welcome. What did I tell you? I think I told you once ago, this is, you know, you're going to look at this like, oh, what a great opportunity. And I'm like, but I know the truth. The truth is it's really a Twilight Zone episode where like a guy.

who has been sentenced to guard this one thing, find somebody that he can hand the key to and go, now it's you. Yeah, but you gave me something that I think nobody gave you, I think, and that was...

the wisdom on the other side of it. Well, genuinely, you gave me- Whatever I had accrued at that point, because I also, I had gone into it so blind. But that's what I mean. Yeah. But I also knew no matter what- No matter how carefully we crafted it, no matter how much you and I shared about frustrations or look out for this.

it's always going to be like, it's not like that made it easy for you. Yeah. But if somebody tells you there's a weight on the ground and they tell you that this weight will be the hardest thing you have ever lifted in your life. Right. When you go to it and it is the hardest thing you've ever lifted in your life, your expectations have been met. And it doesn't mean that the weight lessens in any way. It doesn't lighten the load.

But it does mean that you are doing the right. This is why I knew when I saw you. No, you're doing it the right way. The way you think about things. Yeah, you're doing it the right way. So you don't, while I was doing it, I wasn't going, this is going wrong. I was going, ah, man. This is hard. The Daily Show is easily the hardest thing I've ever done.

doing in life, genuinely. I've had a hard life, but The Daily Show is the hardest thing I've actively done. That is the hardest, right? In a work environment. Yeah, completely. And so the reason I say it blows my mind is because I go... from the time I met you, like people would say, oh man, John used to be rock and roll. But when they said rock and roll, I thought they just meant like leather jacket and smoking.

Because I've, genuinely, I've met few human beings who are more, let's put it this way. First time we're going to do a segment on The Daily Show. You tricked me because you didn't tell me we were going to do a segment. You said, come and hang out. I came to hang out. We just like moseyed around the office. I'd see you, you know, pottering from one part to the other. You go down to the, you know, field department. You're going to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then we chat in the moments that you had free. We chat, we chat, we chat, we chat. And then one of the conversations, you said, what do you think of New York? And I said, well, I don't know, man, the potholes. I said, what is this place? And we started talking about it. And you were like, what's it like where you're from? I was like, well, the potholes aren't this bad.

And we had this whole conversation. And then you said, we need that on the show. Yes, that's a good bit. Yeah, but beyond it being a good bit, you saw something that I would have never seen. And it was a deeper commentary on the idea of America's exceptionalism versus the world. I was just going, hey, man, the road's here. Not what I expected. So when I hear you saying this.

And I think for most people, if they go like, Jon Stewart taking drugs, drinking in a hole, and then we see this man who is... easily and i say this to everyone one of the wisest human beings i've ever met no but genuinely and and not wise in like i know everything way but rather in you can look at a thing you don't know and go i don't know anything

But this is what I think it might not be or be, which is what I think a lot of the time wisdom is. Based on my life, this is how I'm going to perceive the situation. Right. And take nothing for granted. Because that's, you know, and that's where your upbringing and those things, there is a perspective to be given from, you know, it's a humility, right?

If you understand the fragility of everything that you experience, you don't ever get to that place. It's sort of like the way I am with conspiracy theorists. conspiracy theorists will say like, hey man, you know, I'm just asking questions. And I'm like, you're not actually just asking questions. Because if you were just asking questions, you'd want to listen for the answer. And you'd want those answers. When I talk to those people,

You know, they're like, hey, man, you're controlled opposition now. You used to question things. And I'm like, I still question things. With conspiracy people, I'm not in any way objecting to their skepticism. Yeah. I'm objecting to their certainty, right? If you remain skeptical, but not just of the narrative, but also of the counter narrative, you have to, and that is born of.

In my mind, instability. I was born of instability. And so, in fact, I'm going to write a book called Born in Instability. And it doesn't have the same. Where were you born? But I was born here, Manhattan, in a doctor's hospital. It's not even there anymore. So you've, you've literally just been. Well, my parents are, my father was from Coney Island, Brooklyn.

And my mother was from Washington Heights. So they went to City College. I struggle to understand a lot of the time. I've spent many years trying to process it, but I've struggled to understand how you could see me and you. when on the surface we have such different lives. Right. Because I look at what you just did now. You just pointed at your whole life like this, you know?

By the way, let the record show I am correct directionally. No, you are. You are. I am correct. But what I find, the paradox of Jon Stewart for me is I've met few people. who have traveled less and yet have gone to more places. No, I mean this. I know people who have traveled the world and have no perspectives and have no curiosities and have no learnings.

From it. So their bodies have gone to another country or another place. Right. But their mind and their spirits has not. Right. You get what I'm saying? Yes. And yet I meet you. And I've been to Buffalo. Buffalo and Rochester. Do you travel more now? I hope so. Yes. Okay, this is good. I'm just saying that. No, I tried to because of the kids as they got older. Yeah, because of the kids. And the time and all that. And we traveled more.

uh in my diaspora uh we traveled more and so you mean in your diaspora when i wasn't doing the daily show when i wasn't doing i've only heard of diaspora used like as an african thing oh really yeah it's a big jewish thing the jewish diaspora by the way

Oh, we'll get into that later. I'm the Jewish diaspora thing. I've been really considering this in my head. It's something we can talk about later. We should definitely talk about it. All right. You want to talk about it now? We'll talk about it right now. All right, let's talk about it right now. So I've been thinking about this. This is in a larger context of...

Good Jew, bad Jew, right? So I'm clearly not religious. Okay. I sometimes admire people of faith, but I can't get there. Like, I know— it's sort of like faking orgasms for me. Like there's a certain like, yeah, like, and I'll do the people will say like, oh, bow your head in prayer. And I'll be like, and then we'll, you know, we'll do a moment of silence and I'll, but in the silence, I'm really like, I wonder, is anybody.

Oh, look at that dude over there. I'm not really silent. So I don't get it. But I am Jewish. It just is. It is what it is. And it's born of that. That's my family. They were Jewish. Their parents were Jewish, whatever it was. But this idea somehow, and it ties into Israel, that whatever you were born as, you won't be safe. unless you are somehow ensconced in some version of an ancestral home, I think is a really dangerous precedent. I think the idea that we must go home, like...

Where I pointed, that's where I'm from. That's my home. I can triangulate where I'm at. This is where I feel most comfortable. this is where I'll always gravitationally come back to. I don't live in a diaspora. I've been to Israel. I was like, wow, that's impressive. I could see why they wrote the Bible here. It looks very, that's a lot of mountain. That's a lot of desert. But I reject the idea somehow that communities of people aren't whole.

unless they are able to repopulate some ancient version of where they believe is their source. Does that make sense? It does. It does make sense. And I don't know if that's applicable to the African diaspora. But for me, I think it's a dangerous precedent to tell people that they will never be safe. unless they are somewhere else i always feel like well then the job is to make us all safe here because this is my home yeah

So that's what I've been... Chappelle said something to that effect, which I really appreciated. He said, we have to do a better job of making Jewish, and I paraphrase him, our Jewish brothers and sisters feel... So safe that they do not need to defend Israel regardless of what it does, because they feel like that's the only place where they will be safe. That's right. You know, which, which I think. Because it does. It puts you in a moment where you say to yourself.

I have to because they're fighting for me. Right. But that can't be because that's, then they have to be forced to dehumanize someone else. And that can't be.

So, it's that cycle of always believing that there is this final move that we all have to make. And there is also a little bit of... apocalyptic rendering in all that which is there are many people who believe like all these pieces must be in place for the final fire yeah that's a that's a strong incentive that i didn't know about until i moved to america oh they didn't do that no that was never a thing where i was from there was no evangelical group

who was saying, we need this to happen in Israel so that the prophecies can come to me. I only learned about it when I got here. What is, in terms of like African religious tradition, right? How similar is it to kind of... The different variations that you see here, is it like, is it proselytizing? Is it sort of, you know? Does it have as many different variations? Yes. Right. I'm not a religious scholar. My mother actually is, but I'm not.

Is that why she went Judaism? She actually, comparison shopped. No, she actually did. I think one of the reasons, no, really, I asked her about this. I said to her, I was like, why? Why Judaism? And she said, I was always seeking the source. I always wanted to go deeper. She's like, okay, if I'm at Christianity, I want to know, but where does Christianity come from? I'm going to go deeper and I'm going to go deeper. And then, you know what I mean? So now like week in and week out, it's like her.

reading the Torah, sending me little scriptures. And it's like, I know when Purim is, I know I have to be in the mix. I'm always in the mix in that way. Right.

You know, my mother sends me messages about knowing when poor is as well. Different reason. So it's definitely as broad because there were so many parts of African religion that were stripped away by... colonialism right so colonization comes in a lot of African religion gets stripped away and so I think for the most part now you have a lot of hybridization right

So there's still some people who go like, I still believe in my ancestors, even though like strict Christianity will say, you don't know. There's no such, God is your only thing you're worrying about. You don't speak to your ancestors. If you're Catholic, you can speak to Mary, but no one else. And it's that type of thing. And for me, it was because I went to four or five churches every Sunday. So I lived in this most of my life. I went to a Catholic school.

And then I went to an interdenominational church, but then I also went to an Anglican church, and then I went to a Methodist church. But the thing I found across all of them is they just have a slightly different bent on one.

part of the why right at some point they have a nexus that that combines all of them right but the biggest thing i would say that's a difference when you talk about the african diaspora is i love that you you had the bit blacks and jews because my mom always says that and because i always grew up saying that and i remember having to explain this once i was having a conversation with a friend it was around the time

I think LeBron James had a clip of himself up and a video clip. And he was saying like, we're going to make that Jewish money. We're going to be the Jews. You know what I mean? It was a whole thing, right? And he got, I mean, you can imagine. People were just like, LeBron, this anti-Semitic. And then he put the video down. He apologized. It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. And I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in LA. And he said, he's like, man, I can't believe LeBron did this.

And I said, I get what you're saying. And I'm not saying don't be offended. However, I think you are missing some context. And some of the context you're missing is how Jewish people have been perceived for the most part, not speaking for all black people.

by black people sure because a lot of black people have gone there is only one other group we know of who has also been enslaved who has also been like chased out of different parts and places right who have also been ostracized we only know one group who's done that

who we now perceive to be successful on the other side. Exactly. And so I know a lot of black people are going, man, we need to be, we need to be the Jewish, we need to be black Jews. We need, and I was trying to explain to him, I was like, I get it from your perspective. You're not wrong. But I hope you do understand that a lot of it in like parts of hip hop and a lot of it in black culture is when we used to get dressed on Sundays.

And you would go to church. You always had to look good. Your parents would put you in your nice clothes. And kids in the township in South Africa would say, which means you're wearing your Jewish. And they said that because Hasids were always in like a... Right, right, right. We would grow up just being like, yo, these people are dapper, man. The long black coat. Yo, these people are dapper. Got your hair on point.

Go get Jewish. That's what I'm talking about. So that context, I think, is important. But I think the main difference is to go back a little bit. Some of it I experienced, and I say all of this with the caveat that I don't speak for everyone ever, right? But I did notice in the United States, there was a similar idea around

Africa and African Americans, the motherland, right? So there was this idea where people would go, you are not from here, right? People would say, go back to where you came from. That's right. And so a lot of black Americans would go. I will never be safe until I can go back to where I'm from. That's right. In the same way that you're saying many Jewish people might go, hey man, I will never be safe unless there is a place that is distinctly and specifically made for me. Right.

And then what would happen was a lot of African Americans would come to Africa. And I think on the one hand, they would be shocked by how it's not home. Right. But there's one part of it that they would get, which is, oh, this is why. I eat this food, or this is why I hum like this, or these are my people who have informed me before I even knew I was going to exist. And there's a certain solace that comes in that. And to your point, I think sometimes...

we focus a little too much on the physical thing as opposed to the real thing. That's the culture. That is the... That's the thing that should never die. That's right. Do you get what I'm saying? And that's placeless. That you can put in your knapsack. Yeah. And that's the thing people try to wipe out, by the way. Right. And it's the thing also that, and when it mixes.

And when it creates something new and unique, beautiful, and it has so many colors to it. And it reminds me that so much of all this, you know, when you say like, oh. they view Jews a certain way or they might view blacks this way or African-Americans this way. No one has discernment for what they aren't. Your only discernment is for like, I can tell if I can look at Jews and be like Sephardic Ashkenazi reform, but like I can break down.

I was in... I love that. No one has discernment for what they aren't. You can't. It's the hardest thing in the world because it's hard enough to have empathy for what you are, let alone discernment. It reminds me of, someone said this once, we're having a conversation and someone said,

It was a white person. And they said white liberal person. Very liberal. Very, very liberal. Very liberal. Upper West Side. Very liberal. Although not for the school, not our school. You shouldn't, please. Well, that's different because the kids, you got to understand, they know each other. They have to be together. No, they know.

Here's the other thing, too, is you don't want other kids slowing them down. It's unfair to them, to be honest. They want to be gastroenterologists. It's really unfair. You know Max. It's really. He's so smart. And Max loves everyone. And Max loves everyone. He loves everyone. Loves everyone. I want him to have more black friends. He has to. You know? He has to. He really does. You know, we shop at Benetton. Because of the wrong. Because of the wrong. And we're chatting and this person went...

You know, some people cross the road when a black man walks down towards them. It's like 3 a.m. and they cross the road and I would never cross the road. If I'm walking at 3 a.m. and a black man, you know what I do? I walk, I keep my head up. And it was so funny because it was one white person. It was only black people they were talking to.

And then we went, well, I mean, sometimes you got to cross the road. And they're like, what? And we went, well, what kind of black person? And they're like, what do you mean? And we said, well, you see, you're just saying a black person. Right. I know for a fact, every black person walking down the street will look at a black person and not just see what you just said, not a black person. You'll be like, I don't know if I want to take a chance here.

But that discernment is something that a lot of people don't understand cross-culturally. Mike Huckabee was on the show once, and he was on- I thought you said Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee. Mike Huckabee. Yeah, Mike Huckabee. Okay, Mike Huckabee. I had a Cuckabee.

uh he was on and he was on one of his uh jeremiah ads of culture and how i think beyonce had just come out with it was the album where she was expressing her physical love for jay-z oh yeah yeah you know my surfboard surfboard all these things so he was riding on that board riding riding on that board this had upset my cuckabee terribly

Because of the children, Trevor, the children love Beyonce. And now the children are going to know that sometimes when a man loves a woman very much, they use them as surfboards. You understand. It's a very dangerous precedent that's being set. So he's talking about the terrible nature of this kind of sexually explicit and suggestive. Mike Huckabee plays bass in a band. Right. He had on Ted Nugent. Ted Nugent has a song called Wang Dang Sweet Poontang.

And he has another song about banging a 15-year-old girl, a cat scratch fever or something like that, that they played. And I said, Mike, you... You love, oh, that's Ted. He's a good old boy. You don't understand. It's just, but that surfboard, I mean, come on. You're fucking, but the sweet poontang, come on. You know Ted. He's a good old boy.

And what people don't understand is like, they might, a car filled with black people with a lot of base on it might scare the shit out of a white person, but do they understand their pickup truck with the gun rack? Yeah. Blast in country is something that other people don't understand and are fearful of, but that car could pull up to Mike Huckabee's picnic and it'd be fine. Yeah. Ignorance is epidemic. Most people aren't malevolent, but it's.

We can't discern the difference. I sat with, I was on LeBron's show, The Barbershop. Oh, yeah. The show, The Barbershop. Yeah. They went through, they were all talking about their barbershop. It was like me. Did you get a lineup or did you, like, did you actually get your hair cut? No, no, no. Oh, okay, okay. They don't know what to.

I don't even know what it is. But we're all sitting around and it was, I think, Jared Carmichael and Draymond Green and LeBron and Mav Carter. And, you know, they're telling their... barbershop stories. And they're like, look at me. And I'm like, I'm only here to collect the rent. Like I don't, that's what, that's what we do here. But it was so interesting when we were talking as Draymond said to me, he goes, Jews, man, you look out for each other.

And in the moment, I was like dumbstruck of this idea of like Jews. We look out for each other as though, again, somebody who's been faced with. not having discernment their whole life. Right. Who so easily passes into the realm of, and oh, by the way, I don't either, but that's fine. And that's so much of the issue is we just don't.

It was like in the war on terror where we were like, you know, we were bombing the shit out of countries before we even knew like, wait, Shia and Sunni? What? Yeah. There's different, what? If we were able to understand that lack of discernment without placing such negative value on it, in other words, If we were more understanding of prejudice and stereotype and less tolerant of racism, we'd start to understand that prejudice and stereotype are functions mostly.

of ignorance, and of experience. Racism is malevolent, right? But the other is way more natural. But we react as though it might... metastasize immediately. Yes. And so I think we throw up barriers to each other in a way that we're crossing the street before we have to. And the anger that that engenders is part of what builds, I think, those walls. I think it's also because it's exactly what you're saying.

But again, more than most countries in the world. And I think it's starting to spread now because of social media. But I think more than most countries in the world, in America, that's been weaponized. When I was doing The Daily Show, I barely got time to really go home to South Africa. Like, you know, it's a slog and then you need the time to relax and rest and blah, blah, blah. But now that I've had more time to go back and just like pop back and pop back.

I realized how much nuance I've even robbed myself of because America wants a snap judgment, you know? So America immediately wants the... You said it, it's over. As opposed to, why did you say it? What did you mean by it? Oh, this is how it can be interpreted. It's slow. It's laborious. It's oftentimes boring. But you know what it is, John? It's context.

It is completely, completely. Did you just do a call? Young man. It's context. You just did a callback. But you just walked us around the park to where we started. For God's sake. I think that's right. Yeah. And I've noticed. And grace. Yeah. I think that's the missing ingredient of context. Oh, I like that actually. Is often grace and the forgiveness. Going back to Dave, you know.

He said something once. I can't remember what we were talking about. He goes, so important, man. Forgive yourself. You know how he gets me. Lean in. Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself.

And I just thought that was such an incredibly, wonderfully foundational concept. Because so much of getting back to sort of the vibration of... the brain that you need to calm is a lack of grace for yourself, a lack of forgiveness for yourself, for mistakes, for missteps, for... is trying to discern the context of those missteps and what was done of ignorance and what could be cured and what could you learn, not in a performative way, but in a way that you could then...

A seed that you could plant in yourself that you could nurture and grow into something. Right? Yeah. And that feels like such an important step of that. It's funny you say that. most difficulty I had on The Daily Show was when I got into trouble for saying the thing that I wasn't saying. Oh, really? Do you know what I mean? Yes. I could handle...

someone not liking my opinion. I was like, yeah, it's an opinion. We all have that. That's right. I don't agree with this. Okay, good for you. Let's have a conversation. Did you feel it was purposeful, the misunderstanding? Because my guess is some people didn't. understand some people understood and weaponized it because they saw advantage no i think some people it was actually the people who i think i was speaking with or for or you know in in

Oh, okay. It was those moments where you go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, what do you mean? You know, it's like you played soccer. You know what it's like? It literally felt like sometimes you're crossing the ball and your team goes. You try to clear the ball for them. And you go, no. I misunderstood. You're talking literally about like your allies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I remember saying this to the team at the show all the time. Right.

I'd say if there was one thing I would change about American politics, especially for liberals, especially for liberals is liberals have a really... for lack of a better term, it's a really black and white system of being in and out. And I find Republicans or conservatives, maybe because they're more religious, they believe more in the story of...

They believe more in like, you didn't mean that? Well, atone and you can come back in. That's interesting. You know how many times I heard very Christian people say, I would say, how could you support Trump? And then they would say to me, and I get it completely. They'd go. He's not a perfect vessel. And they'd say, go read the Bible. The Bible is littered with stories of imperfect men delivering a perfect message. And I'd be like, damn.

And I would envy that for liberals because I would go, you know how many times liberals would not consider the possibility that the person they are in lockstep with... slipped or tripped or didn't even actually be an imperfect person you might find they did something that made sense and it affected you in a way that you thought so here's how the liberal mind fights back against that

Very message. So as you're talking, right, it's about the grace of faith and how it teaches you to forgive and to feel redemption. through imperfect vessels is such an important part of growth. And as you're talking the whole time, I'm like, you know, the Bible, you know, talks about slavery. I mean, the Bible, you know, there's literally instructions for slavery in the Bible. So, I mean, you know, you use that as a...

So you immediately, and it is, it's a flaw, but it's a thing in my mind. And it's why faith, it's why I'm so faith resistant. I can't let my brain stop the litigation. I'm full of faith. Yeah, I can't. You see, that's a weird one. It's like, I'm not particularly religious, but I'm... Right. An example is like, I play football, soccer every week, right? Play here. Still? Yeah, still. The knees are... Driver. We're trying our best here, John. We're trying... You don't play at all.

Yeah. Once you hit 60. You said this to me about 40, by the way. Once you hit 40. No, no, I still play. And I joke, one of my... One of my best friends now I met playing soccer here in New York at Pier 40. And we have this team. It is like the United Nations. I mean... Algerians, Nigerians, Ghanaians, French, South Africans, Moroccans, Australia, you name it, they're on this team from everywhere around the world, every walk of life. And we played together. And my friends know.

I love being on the team that is considered dysfunctional and useless because I have faith that every player is trying to do the right thing. I genuinely believe in it. And I've noticed that sometimes what will happen is... A player will be on the other team. They will do something that they thought would go well. They try to cross the ball. They try to shoot. They try to pass. They try to tackle. They fail. And their teammates will treat them like they are against them.

And I have such an allergic reaction to this because I go, no, we are on the same team. Are we on the same team? Yes. What were you trying to do there? Were you trying to kick it into our goals? Right. No, you were not. All right. Next time then.

Angle your foot. And if the person's receptive, I go, yeah, we made a mistake. Let's move on. Yes. I don't think liberals do that, to be honest with you. I think there's like a, there's a, there's a real like, ah, well, not only, not only are you out, you're on the other team. Right.

Which is even crazier to me. Imagine playing a game, John. Imagine playing a sport. Every time your wide receiver drops a catch, every time your point guard passes the ball out of bounds, not only do you bench them, you bench them to the other team. That is an unsustainable way of growing a coalition. Right. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't encourage people. The only thing that, because. And again, grace is the key thing. All groups have that.

litmus that's like if i'm looking at so i'm thinking about the right now and before i grant them the uh redemption arc i think about the vindictiveness of the trump era that there's very little of it. There are really no deadly sins in the Trump era in terms of that when you talk about faith.

He can be convicted of this. Yeah. And evidence of unfaithfulness and sexual harassment, all these different things. And he's an imperfect vessel. Yes. But the one... cardinal sin is fealty is if you're not loyal enough you're not wrong so they do have no no that it's just that's where religion comes back in

Right. Thou shalt have no other God but me. That's right. But that places him beyond the scope of redemption and into the pantheon. Because there was a part of me that thought, oh, it is true. Like I've been involved in some liberal movements. Like we have a rescue farm. So I was involved in animal rights. I remember when you were. We met some of those. Chasing a. Bull. Frank. Let me tell you. His name is Frank. Let me tell you something, John. Out in Brooklyn, Red Hook. You know.

This is what I love about our lives is that whether you intended it or not, we are forever intertwined. Yes. You know, we are trees that have branches that have met and we continue to grow in different directions. We always have those branches that connect us. I remember the day like it was yesterday. I'm at the daily show and I start getting text messages, all concerned, but in different ways. Some saying,

Is Jon Stewart okay? What is happening to Jon Stewart? And I remember like some people going... Genuinely, some people thought you were having your snap moment. Yes. Your run down the street naked. Because all some people saw was... Shave the head. Jon Stewart running down... Yeah, we were in... We were out. A bull had gotten loose. Yes. From where, by the way? It's an excellent question, Trevor. You know, I try not to ask those that...

Okay. The bull, I don't know where he came from necessarily. Okay, because I was like, I don't see bulls in New York. It's sort of like they're like brothels. You know they're there. You don't know the address. Okay. Slaughter houses are the same. Got it. There's a lot of festivals going on where they're going to need a lot of goats and they're going to need them fast and they don't necessarily want them inspected. So Frank had gotten away from.

one of these slaughterhouses and was running. Frank's the bull. Frank's the bull. Okay. Got it. Got it. He got out. Now he's being chased and it's always that news story. You know, they, they, a bull running through Brooklyn. Well, I never, it's a local news catnip. It's also kind of from my wife, who looks at me and looks at our trailer and goes, if we leave now, we can get to Brooklyn in an hour and 15 minutes. Or leave where, New Jersey? Leave our farm.

We can get there, and if they catch Frank, we can get him, and we can take him to a sanctuary. We can get him so that he's not hamburgered. I'm assuming this is an animal trailer. It's like a specific. It's a Datsun. It's a four door. So as long as it gets, no, it's a trailer. Look, I had to learn all this shit too. And by the way, like driving a trailer.

in new york city is not it's no easy game it doesn't seem like like it's gigantic it's attached to your we had a pickup so it's attached to the pickup so you are 25 30 feet of vehicle and They don't necessarily move together. Backing it up is a giant pain in the ass. We get out there, too. They finally corral this bull, and they bring him in.

And we are able to get to the facility where they're holding him. They're holding him at like a dog shelter. He's literally in one of the crates and able to back through and call the different arrangements. You try not to pay the people that the bull has escaped from because that's considered anathema for the movement or whatever. But we get him. There's a bull in our trailer, and I've got to drive him through the Lincoln Tunnel.

And it's just, you know, it's, you know, he's not a happy bull. He doesn't want to be there. He doesn't, he doesn't, you can't say to him like, buddy. You don't understand. Things are going to get better, Frank. Shits are about to get so good for you. You don't understand how good we are for you, Frank. But I have to tell you, in terms of personal satisfaction, off the charts. off the charts it is like the peak of dare I say manliness

Throughout time, John. If you had seen me while we were trying to get him into the trailer, I think you would have... Manliness didn't come to mind. Humankind is defined by the moments where we have captured large beasts. But I think to ride or eat, not to take to a park. Still for me. All right.

You get to say, well, yeah, I captured a wild bull. That's right. In the streets of Brooklyn. But let's go back to what you're saying about the Republic. You said you've dealt with some groups. I'll preface it with this. Yeah. One of my greatest joys. about getting to go back to South Africa and spend more time there and come back to the US. And I live in New York, but I spend time there. Is that it's reminded me to wire my brain differently, right?

If you live somewhere and if you've experienced something the way it has always been, you think that that's the way it is. Yes. Right. I find the more you travel and even this is even with languages. The reason I like learning languages is because they remind me that. the order of words is only what I've been told. You are here with me today. You believe reality has a certain order, but it does not. Completely. And in another language, it is today is you here with me, me.

And it's like, that's fine. That's fine too. Right? One of the big ones I realized for me personally was in South Africa, we spend more time, I would argue. Most people spend more time shitting on their political party than they do thinking about like the other, you know what I mean? And I think to what you're saying, and I've seen, I mean, we've both gotten Flackford in different ways. There is an...

There's a certain allergic reaction that you get in America when you do that. And this I can argue Republican or Democrat. There's like a betrayal. Oh, no question. How could you? Do you understand that we are at war right now? How dare you? You are undermining. And you go like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm saying, again, we come back to the analogy of sports. Hey.

We need to pass the ball. If LeBron says to his team, guys, we're not defending, and someone says, whoa. What are you talking about? What are you playing for them? Playing for them now? What are you, a Celtic now? What do you mean? And I was like, no.

I don't know that that's... Have you found a solve for that? Or do you just take it on the chin and you keep it moving? I think you take it on the chin and you keep it moving. I mean, I think the way that I try and... Like you made Biden old. I know. But by mentioning it...

I handed the election to Donald Trump. You did, John. I believe his niece, Mary Trump, referred to me after that as a threat to democracy, which I thought was an appropriate level of... of threat assessment it's one of those things so there's there's it's sort of there's two things to it one is we both operated kind of artisanal shit talkeries like that is what we do that's what i do i have an opinion i try and frame it within a certain comedic tableau so when people want to talk shit back

I don't have a whole leg to stand on to be like, what? How dare you talk shit to the man who just talked shit about the thing that I wanted to talk shit about? The second part of it, though, is the reptilian nature. of people when they feel that fear they're very comfortable attacking who they think are the other team yes And they think that if you give them any solace, they don't view it as that might be a constructive, a constructive lens by which to view like a standup comic.

What's the worst thing that a standup comic can be? Fragile. If the audience is worried for the comic, you're not going to listen a lot. Well, that's what Biden was in that moment. He would come out and I don't care who you were. Like you were worried. No, you were. You felt it. viscerally, mentioning that as a way of maybe saying to people, either A, prove that this is the wrong emotion that I'm feeling, or B,

Get someone there that has the wherewithal to take on this. I would think would be viewed constructively, but it was viewed utterly destructively. You know, in terms of it bothering me. Like, nobody likes to be yelled at a lot, but I think I've been doing it long enough that the thickness of the skin, like, I don't dwell on it in maybe the way I would have when I was younger. But the second part of it is...

I remember the war on terror. I like America in that fight over Al-Qaeda. Big fan. But I criticize America quite frequently. That doesn't mean I wanted Al-Qaeda to win. Or that doesn't mean that I think it means that I hold my beliefs and the people that I want to carry the flag for that to a very high standard. And that standard, if not met.

I think in the same way that I try to hold myself to a high standard and when failing to live up to it and very critical and, and try and grant that forgiveness. But the point being.

If you love something, if you believe in the idea of something, you have to stress test it. It's like anything else, man. What's the toughest part about comedy is it's not... the writing it's the rewriting it's the editing and why do you do that you do that because you think you can make it better and that's the whole of it and to have that viewed as The antithesis of that, that as though that sabotage, I think is so wholly wrongheaded that I don't even know what to make of it.

The whole like you both sides are it. You're saying they're the same. I'm not saying they're the same at all. And anybody who watches me with any discernment over the course of forget about one episode over a career would know that. Don't go anywhere because we got more What Now after this. Did it surprise you that at The Daily Show there are so many fail-safes of fairness and context? People say, you guys take everything out of context.

Have you met Chardz? Adam Chardz, who's the guy who does research, he's been there forever. He's an institution at the show. These are the credentials of Adam Chardz. Chardz was the keynote speaker. at the World Fact Checkers Conference. These are the levels we're talking about. Yes, in charge we trust. Yes, and this is a person, and you know as well as I do. If you work or host The Daily Show, you will at some point have to fight with this man. That's right.

And he will say, you can't really say that because the source that that's coming from. Man, let me tell you something. In truth, that's a liberal, you know, you got it. You can't trust that fact. Let me tell you something. Yeah. But what he really taught me.

more than most human beings. He taught me how to deconstruct data. He taught me how to deconstruct information. He taught me how to make the argument stronger as opposed to relying on the first instinct of the argument. That's right. And when he says that, you don't say to him, What are you, both sides in it? You're playing for the other team. No, he's challenging you to be better. That's it. They thrive in spaces where you can say whatever you want.

and intimidate others into acquiescence or silence. Where they don't thrive are places where there are evidentiary standards and litigation and proceedings. Right. An interview is a place of where someone's going to ask you real questions is a place of evidentiary standards and litigation. So that's not a comfortable space.

for them because they have a goal in mind and they want to get there. How else can they be? George Soros is the most evil man in the world because he spends millions of dollars influencing elections and say it with a straight face. How in the world, if you say to them, look, the bureaucracy is not the issue with our government. These are individuals oftentimes really committed, really smart.

working to execute the wishes of the congress by you demonizing them it's you're the guy yelling at the southwest airlines counter yeah right not realizing it's corporate yeah but they do know They do it for a purpose. They need scapegoats to get. So if you say to them, you're the department of efficiency, but you've just cut 20% of this. What are the metrics that you use to determine?

waste, fraud, and abuse. And their response is always the same. Oh, looks like the faucets get, the gravy train stopped running. Looks like you don't want this gravy train. And you're like, that's not what I asked you. What I asked you was show us transparently why this is more efficient. Their response is always straw man demagoguing. Because they don't want to litigate the reality of it. They just want to steamroll to the vision of the world where if you say DEI, they go, oh, so...

You don't want a meritocracy. When did we have a fucking meritocracy? Honestly. Like when, when has hiring ever not been subjective and done by people that are more comfortable with people kind of like themselves? And by the way, getting back to the stereotype argument, like, and we should have grace for that.

Anybody who's ever been in a high school cafeteria knows there's a lot of self-sorting that goes on in the world. Gladwell was on the podcast. He had a brilliant analysis of that. And he said, people are quick to talk shit about DEI. And whether you're for it or against it, I've never liked the label of it and I don't like the intention because I go, you're not saying we're going to widen the aperture to catch those we've missed. We're not going to watch the South African comedian.

And just put him in the pile? Yes. Because I could have been shit. And you watched it and you went like, good luck to that kid. Here's what I could have said. You know what we need? Black guy. Oh, wait, that guy's actual African black guy. Wait, black guy, I think is three points. African black guy. I think that might be seven points. See, but it's the aperture. And I think that's where people make the mistake. If you're actually trying to make sustainable change.

you look at what, you try and look at what you're missing, right? If you don't, you look at the labels of what you're missing to try and fill up the gaps. But what he talked about was, and I mean, it was so brilliant, classic Gladwell, he went.

Everyone talks shit about who gets universities. Oh, these black kids are getting in. And these kids, it's because of, you know, admissions that have lowered the bar, lowered the bar. He goes through the sports that get you scholarships. And he goes. Yeah. lacrosse fencing fencing ice hockey ice hockey ice skating squash and he's like who chooses these sports yeah who chooses which sport gets you into a college

If you're really slick at what you do, you get around saying the thing, but you make sure you're doing the thing. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely. You find a way to go, oh yeah, let's do it. You have an outcome. That's where, to be honest with you, that's where I think the Democrats are shitty, actually. No question. I actually think Democrats as like politicians are shitty. The Republicans are Malcolm X by any means necessary. However, they have to get it. And they've got a plan.

And the Democrats are... You know what I just thought of? Sorry. Someone's going to clip that line. The Democrats are Malcolm. The Republicans are Malcolm. Someone's going to clip that and they're just going to put it up like, see, even Jon Stewart knows. We're the ones trying to free the people. We're the ones. The Republicans, you see, and they're going to play you again. The Republicans are Malcolm.

Malcolm X. The Republicans are Malcolm X. The Republicans are Malcolm X. And the Democrats are a black square on their Facebook page. There's a performance to it. The Democrats are the audacity of hope.

and the governance of timidity. Like it's the timidity of what's possible as opposed to what should be done, right? So those two things, it's not a fair fight. So with DEI, the way I try and... talk about it now is in economic terms don't think about it as uh women black people poor people veterans think of it as emerging markets

Oh, I love that. If you're a businessman, who doesn't want to exploit emerging markets? That's hilarious. That's how you, you know, it's- Oh man, that's hilarious. But what they'll do to that is again, they'll straw man it. Oh, so you just don't, you don't care who flies the planes as long as they're black. It's like when they say, can a black man be president? You're like Barack Obama. Yes. Mr. T probably not as easily. Like there's discernment.

But what they're looking for is to look at where are places, because what does that do when you start to build up these supply lines that have withered? It increases competition. It increases the meritocracy. It doesn't decrease it. And they like to pretend that hiring decisions in the good old days, that was merit.

People didn't hire their friends or their friend's sons or some good old boy that they played golf with at the club. No, it was all merit. And I don't know if you remember, but the world worked perfectly then. That's one of the biggest things I try and explain to people about Elon Musk, Peter Thiel to a lesser extent, but still the boys who came from South Africa. Oh God, that's right. Yeah. They've all been touched. I'm fascinated by it because I don't think it's coincidence.

that these guys have all lived in and around apartheid South Africa and have now gone into the world. and are starting to export. With a vision of how it should be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And many of the elements sound exactly like apartheid South Africa. And what you're saying now...

is one of the biggest slights that a lot of white people felt in South Africa, the ones who weren't honest, because a lot of the honest ones were great about it, but the ones who weren't honest would go, you used to be able to get a job in this country. And I remember asking my mom once, I was very young, and I said, Mom, I am...

I asked her, she would always say shame. This is what she'd say. We'd be at the traffic lights and there'd be a homeless person, black, but the white one, she'd always say shame. And I said to her one day, I said, mom, you give money to both. But you always say shame when you give it to the white homeless guy. Why? And she said, you know why, baby? Because they don't know how to be poor.

And I was like, damn, that's harsh. And I was like, what do you mean by that? She said, it's not just that they don't know how to be poor, but they've been told that the world was supposed to work a certain way. And now that it's not working that way, I can't imagine what it feels like. She says, but as black people, we've been told that our job is to suffer. And so we suffer, honey.

We suffer and we try to not suffer, but we believe as black people, which means we suffer, we are suffering. And she said, so I feel so bad for them because the only thing worse. They should have worked out for them. She says the only thing worse than being in a bad position. is being in a bad position when you were told that there was no bad position right that you were the default inheritor of the kingdom and now you go to your point

It's because of the DEI. Now we're going to see with young men, women are going to get jobs. Oh, it's because they're women. They study more. All these women start going to college, Title IX, all that. And all of a sudden, they start kicking the shit out of men academically. And everybody's like, see the terrible trials and tribulations of the American male. And you're like, right.

Now there's competition. And competition in the thing, by the way, that we were never better at them at. We were never better than women at academics. This is every study that has shown it is like men, brain, throw, run, catch. Very good.

Very good. No, we can't. There's some of us who can concentrate, but for the most part, man brain, like, right. You know, young boys shouldn't be in class early in the day. Right. They say if a school was designed perfectly, it would be boys would go in. Yeah. All they would do is run.

Just run nonstop. For at least an hour. Just run like crazy. Right. Then they would learn. Right. Whereas girls can go straight to learn. So the irony in all of it for me is they were always going to kick ass academically because that is what...

their brain is designed for. Right, right. They just weren't allowed into it before, you know? So now you go, oh, why are they suddenly? It's like, yeah, they just weren't allowed to compete. But the exclusion has to be set up as the default setting. Otherwise, it doesn't.

And I think also the other argument that goes through there is how can you punish people who didn't create the system in the first place, but just benefited from it and bringing this back to South Africa. So that's something that. Elon is now on a thing in other countries. He wants to tell AFD and Germany, it's time to get over the guilt. Oh, he's doing it fully. We're going to give them refugee status. We're going to bring them all over. And for like half a day...

There were a few white South Africans who were like, yeah, this is great. And then they said refugee. And then people explained what that would mean. It's like, you just leave your shit. You lose your citizenship. And you just come to America. Right. And get temporary status. And like within a day and a half, some of the biggest Africana organizations came out and they were like, hey, we actually like it here.

I don't know if you know, we own like 70% of the farm. They were like, look, we don't want to be rescued. We just, I think what you need to understand is it's not about... Rescuing us per se, it's like the analogy I had in my head. Just recognizing we're the real victims of apartheid.

There you go, my friend. So what do you do? There you go. You know what it felt like to me? It felt like people on a cruise ship sending out SOSs saying that they were refugees and then the helicopter flying in going, wait, you on the slide? Are you? Look at the buffet! You're not a refugee! Wait, what? And you're like, I thought you were oppressed. They're like, yeah, they said it closes at 10 and now it closes at 9. It's like, I don't think that's oppression. I think it just got a little...

Yeah. So what do they do with advantage like that? Do the white South Africaners now need a truth and reconciliation commission? Do they need to go and cry and go, sometimes now when I go places. People look at me funny. I think to be honest with you, you know, to go back to what we've been saying about social media, to go to what we're saying about dialogue, discourse, et cetera. Right. And I do put a lot of this blame at the feet of social media. And I think.

The media media got so addicted to the teat of social media that it started creating... It followed the same circadian rhythms. Thousand people tweet. Jon Stewart offended me. Trevor Noah is an anti-Semite. The news picks it up. Right. Makes it a thing, then brings it back this way. That's right. And then now the social media gets bigger than the news goes. It's similar to Weapons of Mass Destruction.

Oh, we heard there were weapons. The New York Times said there were weapons. We must invade because of the weapons. But it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait. But this is. Right. But you were the guys who told them there were weapons. You see. Right. So I think in that. So I think there are many.

I'm lucky that I get to see them. There are many white South Africans who go, this is bullshit. We now live in a democracy. Things got fair. And I'm still in a much better position. Even if I'm poor, I'm in a better position than the average black South African in terms of poverty, access to work, whatever. But the voices, John, the thing that I get particularly pissed off about is that there's an insidious voice that knows that this can be used.

to destabilize so that someone can be enriched. That's the whole purpose. So you see Elon Musk, show me a single cause that Elon Musk is supporting that does not. in the end benefit him financially then i will go okay maybe he does have a value where is he fighting in in europe predominantly germany

Where's the place where he's come up against some of the biggest union violations and workers' rights? What did he get rid of in the government? All the agencies that were regulating his businesses. So... No, you're dead right. The question is going to be not enough to say that the exclusionary structures of society are no longer operational. How do you... repair them in a manner that is still equitable right so south african i don't know at all but if 70 of the farms are still owned

right? You can't just walk in and eminent domain it. You can't just walk in and go, well, it should be 70-30 the other way. And so that's what we're going to do. So what do you do? How do you repair systems?

without being punitive to those who may not have had a hand in, in all of that? And is that the key? It's sort of like, look, we can all, at the beginning of every... government meeting honor the indigenous peoples that came before us but nobody's giving the land back so I go again visiting another reality with your eyes open makes you realize that

There is no one reality. Right. Now, if you suggested that in most... Shared prosperity. Can you imagine if you said to Americans, hey, let me ask you a question. All 330-something million of you... This is your country. Why is it that the oil underneath it can belong to one person? Right.

He has his straw, and he has his own straw. Why is that allowed? And someone will be like, no, because you know how hard it is to drill, and you got to get them. And I go, yeah, yeah, I get all of that, but I'm just... saying acknowledge that you've accepted a reality you know when you'll realize it is when you follow its ultimate conclusion water like if you said okay trevor i'll give you some oil i'm like ah what do i do with oil i don't know what to do with oil but water now

The same trajectory has started moving, right? Now, more and more water is owned by corporations. Yes. And slowly, slowly… The municipal water supplies are getting shittier. They're not looked after as well. Now your tap water is not as drinkable. Getting saltier. Yeah, less and less American water is, which by the way, it was the A standard. A lot of people may not know this.

And a lot of people may take it for granted because they've always been drinking the water from the tap. It's not normal everywhere in the world. Quality goes down. At some point, you have to buy bottled water. At some point, you have to buy water. But no one goes.

Where does the water come from? Why are we even paying for it? And people go, but Trevor, you got to understand. Then I go, okay, let's play this game and go to the ultimate conclusion. What if I found a way to extract oxygen from the air? What if I found a way? What if I made a machine that could suck all breathable oxygen out of the air? And I now had it in my machine. I had it in my machine.

No one else has it. You've cornered the market on breathable air. I've cornered the market. Let's say the machine's not, it's not perfect. Right now it can only do like a hundred block radius. Right. But in that hundred block radius. I have all the breathable air. Do you think my neighbors would agree with the notion that they should now pay me to breathe?

Would that not be reasonable, John? I worked hard for this oxygen. I extracted it. And yet if you did it a month later, it would just be the way it is. When people go, you buy oxygen. Yeah, you buy oxygen. The NOAA Corporation, they're the number one provider. You would develop. We do have a baseball league for kids who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. Absolutely. I hope you know that. We sponsor the baseball league. And we have a line of.

blueberry acai oxygen for the very rich people. I know I've got to let you go at some point, but if you had a magic wand. What's one thing you think you'd change? I know one thing won't change at all, but in this moment in time. I would use it to make more magic wands. Ah, you see, this is why you're brilliant.

Well, the temptation is always with the magic wand is to go global and to do the whole, you know, and we all have a world of plenty. It's an Eden where, and this time in the Eden, we decide, let's, you know what? How about this? Let's just not plant an apple tree. Maybe the whole idea is if we don't put the apple tree, the Eden doesn't get spoiled. So I will not take the easy way out, which would be to wave the magic wand.

As a panacea, because I think it just doesn't. There's probably nothing for us to have insight with. There's not much of a meal in that. What would you do? And it would just be like, ice cream and pizza, Trevor. That's what I would do. I think what I would focus on is information ecosystems because ultimately people.

are creatures of free will and that's the joy of humanity and so to steal the free will with a magic wand almost makes this entirely an exercise in the good place where you're in somewhere and you're and you're bored there is a There is a beauty in the not knowing. There's a beauty in the finite nature of all that we have. And there's a beauty in the resourcefulness that is necessary because life is fucking hard.

It's hard. It's a challenge. So I think the thing that I would wish for is not an instruction manual. but an information ecosystem that allowed those who would wish to access it and see it to be able to make those. decisions about their future and about the future with the good data yeah i'm with not the data that's been co-opted and worked and yeah i'm with you because ultimately

The machine's only as good as the input. And so I would probably, with my magic wand, want to clean the inputs so that we'd still fuck up, we'd still make terrible mistakes, but at least we'd all be... be working off of the good data. I like that. I have a friend who works at the United Nations and I was saying, what is different in how you see the world versus how other people see the world? And this person said,

I know the UN is not perfect and it's fallen apart in many ways. But they said, the one thing I do appreciate is at the UN, we get our news from primary source. Yeah. Almost everyone in that building. gets the news from where the news actually happened right and they were saying how you'll be shocked at how different it shapes how you you know like a simple example was um

I think it was like the US at some point, they proposed a, oh man, you know all these English words. I think it was like a treatise to a ceasefire. Yeah, I'm sure it was a referendum. It was something like that. And then the American News reported and said, America has supported a ceasefire. And everyone in the UN was like, no, no, no. No one knows what that sentence means.

You said ceasefire, but you put, but because they had primary source, they saw it. And I, I, I feel like, would you, would you ever do something like that? Would you ever go into something organizational or would you, I mean, people have asked you, you'd never run for president, right? Run for president. Sure. Let's do it.

Let's do it tomorrow. Me and Stephen A. Smith. I mean, you could. That's a winning ticket. Anybody could. That's a winning ticket, by the way. I think, you know. That's a hell of a winning ticket, John. Somewhere. I'm not sure where. Basic Cable. You don't think you and Stephen A. Smith could win the presidency? No, I don't. Huh. I don't.

I think we could win the news that week. Huh? We would win the news that week. Someone's been chasing bulls for too long. I don't know, John Stewart. I don't know, my friend. If you had asked me the magic wand question. 30 years ago in that in the era that i was in that we talked about earlier my answer would have been oh i think i would uh have hot and cold running cocaine and blowjobs and that'll probably disqualify me from them

I think it makes you the perfect candidate. Thank you. Floored and evolved. And can I tell you, you look happier? I am happy. You look young. You look... Backward Now you've Benjamin Button You know When you leave Yeah yeah yeah And then the once a week I mean that's You get Can I tell you Joe I feel like You walked So that I could run

And then I ran so that you could fly, my friend. You are flying once a week. Jon Stewart, thank you for the time. Such a pleasure to see you. Truly a joy, my friend. Thank you. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan.

Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?