The Options Explosion

much can options actually wag the stock market dog? Who's to blame retail traders or soft bank who's now been deemed the Nazac whale? And of course what does this mean for investor as well? Not to build any pressure on our guest or anything, but he has all the answers. I was gonna say, Sarah, all all the answers. You're really uh, you're really putting this guy on the spot here. Not to hype it up too much, but I really, I really believe he does all the answers. I'm gonna

ask him where where do babies come from? Let's see start with the most pressing of them. But as always, will close out the episode with our tradition the craziest thing I saw in markets this week. And please if you saw something crazy, give us a call on the Bloomberg Podcast hotline at six four or six three to four three four nine, oh, and leave us a voicemail. Maybe we'll play it on the show. And of course

you can always tweet us at podcasts Now. Sarah, before I actually introduced this guest, you have to indulge me with a little bit of an old man nostalgia story here always always you like it when I wind up with the old the Old Guys series. Yeah. So, as you probably know, I grew up outside of Philadelphia, suburban Philadelphia, but my parents are from a little town called Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania, which is further north in Pennsylvania, up in the mountains.

It's a river town. When we would go back to visit my grandmother, my dad would always kind of revert back to a twelve year old boy, I think, and he'd take me and we'd go on little adventures around town. One of the things we did one time was we used to go throw rocks in the river um and one time we were up on a cliff throwing rocks out in the river right and all of a sudden, there must have been guys down on the bank fishing

that we couldn't see. So they started winging the rocks back at us, and we had to high tail it back to my grandmother's house. We were all sweaty, and you know, she was like, what the what is what happened? And but I was like, nothing, nothing not, nothing's here? How this is relevant? Okay, you're ready? Yeah, I'm waiting for it. Could you name I bet you can't, but can you name that river I was throwing rocks into me? Named that river in Pennsylvania? Named that river? Uh, Susquehanna.

Say it again? Try say to it again. Am I right? If we'll allow mispronunciations, you're you're correct, Susquehanna. Susquehanna. That was pretty good. Right, that's better. And that's Ralevant because obviously one of the biggest, most important firms in the options market is Susquehanna International Group, and we are lucky to have their co head of derivative Strategy on the show this week. His name is Chris Murphy. Chris, welcome to the show. It's great to be here. Thank you. Um.

I'm also from the suburbs of Philadelphia. So I might not have I might have to not have all the answers, but I definitely have answers. So let's let's do this. You might have the answers to what happened to the Eagles last week? I don't know. I was watching the kids soccer. Luckily I missed it. Yeah you didn't, You didn't miss You didn't miss that. But Mike claim to fame.

When I first got to Bloomberg a million years ago, was the the options guy reporter realized I could I could spell Susquehanna, And every time he was writing a story, how do you spell Susquehanna again? And I'd tell him and then he'd say, how do you spell balakin Wid which is where Susquehanna is located? And I think everyone else on the team thought I knew everything. It's like this guy knows everything. Yeah, he quickly became the most

resourceful guy at Bloomberg. That's right, That's right. So so Chris, first question is how long did it take you to learn how to spell Susquehanna without looking twice? Well, I've been here sixteen years, so I was I figured out both of those before my headway point. So that's a pretty good that's about a good learning curve, I would say, I would say, they didn't make you try to spell it in your start off interview. You know, they did not. They did not. Luckily, Luckily I might not be here.

Who knows what I do? I can spell all the tough filly area many on contrack and quiz me anytime. But but anyway, Chris, let's get to the heart of the matter here. As Sarah pointed out in the introductions, everybody is talking about the options market again, trying to suss out what role options trading may or may not have played in this ferocious rally in the equity market and now a little bit of a correction since the beginning of September. You know, from your seat, what was

it look like watching the options market this year? I'm guessing it was a very unusual environment. Was this almost like nothing you've ever seen before? This much sort of retail interest and now we're learning about even bigger institutional interest from the likes of Soft Bank. I mean, what was it like watching all this flow go by? Yeah? I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head the most notable change that we've seen this year is just the explosion in the retail trading flow concentrated

in the front two weeks. We did some analysis recently where we looked at what percentage of overall option trading volume was in the front two weeks before coronavirus and before all the brokerage houses we're starting to give out no fee option trading. It was you know around UH. Now it's closer to that's a huge difference, just UH concentrated in the front two weeks. That trading is unique, and I think you know, when you're reading about it and looking at it, you see these giant volume numbers.

But what not a lot of people are are pointing out is that the volume numbers at the end of the day, when you compare them to the change in open interest the next day, the change in open interest is a fraction. For a lot of these what we call message board trading stocks that we've been tracking here

is a fraction of the volume number. So what that means is over the course of the day, these options were as we are assuming um for your number of ways that we track it are being bought early on, but then a lot of them are closed by the end of the day UM, So their long term impact, you know, when they're open and closed the same day, is not huge. But over time that open interest does build up UM and by the time we get to expiration, that's when you see a lot of a larger moves.

For example, we were looking at Apple and we looked at the inter day trading range for Monday through Thursday, UM pretty consistent across the board, and back in two thousand nineteen the Friday was moving at a similar range. But recently the moves on Fridays have been around wider UM, and we think that's, you know, really due to a build up in open interests from a lot of this

retail trading, so this message board trading. You mentioned that if if a lot of this is being open and closed in the same day, you said, the long term impact isn't that large. However, I think it's come to been well understood that options did play a role in this run up, this massive run up that we had in August, particularly in some of these stocks like Apple, like Tesla. Can you walk us through the dynamics of that, though I know a lot of Greek letters get thrown

out and about. But how is that actually possible that you can almost have this army of small day traders trading options in and out very quickly UM in small lots, and that actually can somehow move prices, especially of large companies. You know, even though a lot of it is open and closed the same day, over time that open interest

builds up. So let's just stick with Apple for example, UM and September expiration is on Friday, UH and last I check, Apple was around a hundred and twelve and a half bucks somewhere around there, maybe a little bit lower UM and the strike with the most open interest because of this, a lot of it due to the retail trading adding up over the course of weeks and weeks and weeks, UM had around seventy five thousand open

interest call contracts. So you know, let's say you're a market maker and Apple is add ten dollars, so it's below the strike. You have to buy some stock to hedge your short call position, but not a lot, let's say worth of how much UM culture short The next morning, if Apples up at one fift, you have to go back out there and buy some more stock. Now, there's

a lot of forces at play. But because these option positions are getting so big, and because the market makers being forced to go out and buy stock, that does have an impact on the stock um and would move the stock higher if they are out there buying another day later stocks a hundred and twenty, the market maker has to go out there and buy more. And this works in both directions. Apple at twenty, these calls are

way in the money. All the market makers are hedged pretty much the equivalent amount of stock to the calls that they're short. And then we start selling off like we did in in September, and all of a sudden, those calls are out of the money. Well, they don't need that long stock as a hedge anymore, so they need to sell it as well. They're just looking to

stay flat. So this is gonna exacerbate moves in either direction. Um. You know, as we saw this week, you know, the FED things like that, that's still you know, the major catalyst that is moving markets. But the increased trading and open interest in the options is just going to work to exacerbate moves in either direction. Um, if we are working under the assumption, which I think is a good one, that that retail is um, mostly net long a lot

of these options. Chris, did you notice any sort of change in the complexion of the option markets right there at the beginning of September when the market sort of peaked and rolled over? You know, the jokes, I've got a piece in Business Week to sort of plug my own book here, you know, people joking about, well, the Robin Hood traders had to go back to high school, and you know, the the NFL Week one lines came out and there was more interesting stuff to to bet on.

But I wonder there is there a little bit of element of truth to that type of sort of humorous summation of what happened. Does the changing of the calendar to September the end of summer cause a different tone in trading um? And is there anything in the in the options data that you saw that to sort of back up that idea? So now you know, in these times two thousand twenty, I would not take anything off the table. And you know, I'm sure there's a million

different parts to this story. To me, it seems like these message board traders are just very reactive to market moves, and to a great degree they're focused on the call options. You can see that in UH, in the volume numbers, in the put call ratios, you can see it in

a lot of different places. We have started to see selective spots where we are seeing um of this similar flow on the put side, but to a large degree, these investors seem to be following momentum, and we have certainly noticed when the market has had down days, we see significantly less of the same trading flow. What was the chicken, what was the egg? You know, not sure, but it certainly is true from what we're seeing, we're seeing less of this flow on the down days which

we saw in the beginning of September. You know, and correct me if I'm wrong. That strikes me as a different sort of paradigm than the way UH professional traders use options. You know, they might use a call and a put some sort of you know, complex multi legged trade where the retail seems to have just been all in on calls, you know, trying to use them to hit home runs, whereas you're, you're more sophisticated hedge fund trader might be looking at some you know, kind of

multi legged trades to to hit singles and doubles. Is that a fair sort of analogy there, do you think, um, absolutely, and I, you know, I do necessarily always think that the most complicated trades are always the best ones. And if you're looking at the retail traders that are just

buying calls, it's all about sizing it correctly. There's a lot of value in a market like this where you see such dramatic moves to going out there and buying a call, where you know that max you can lose is the amount that you paid, and you're getting exposure to a stock that you want to get exposure to. And in terms of you know, how much risk are

they taking? You know, if you're buying a stock at the same size, you have a lot more downside risk than a call, which has the embedded UH protection, you know. And you know also you know, selling the pot, which can definitely be a great strategy, but there's just more risk in those other types of strategies when you're just buying a call. You know, maybe that's related to the amount of margin or what not you're able to get

from your brokerage. You know, maybe it's harder for um, you know, retail traders to do those more sophisticated strategies because maybe they have to put more to put more money up. But I guess my my main point on that is these calls it makes sense. There's a lot of reasons that they do. Makes sense, you know, if you're just looking to get exposure and you don't want

to open up a lot of downside. Alright, So Mike mentioned quote unquote professional investors and the big name and all of this that's really come out over the past month after the Financial Times reported about soft Bank being the Nasdaq whale that has evolved. So you had in a recent report you spoke about these large so called risk reversals that were being unwound. And I remember I was speaking to you on a on a recent day, Um, that stops her trading lower, and some of these big

trades look to be closing out. Is it at all possible to really know, um being an outsider that yeah, these were the trades that were being placed by soft Bank potentially, And even if you can't know that for sure, I mean, is it usual or is it posible that if such trades like these are closed out that they could have ripple effects through the market. Trades of those size, the risk reversals certainly can impact the market. Uh, and mostly those specific stocks, I think because of the speculation,

because of the timing of everything. You know, Um, that was all has all been reported. Cash on the sidelines deployed buying big tech stocks, swap out of those tech stocks into call spreads, which is actually a risk reduction type of a move. UM. And then after all that, these bullish risk reversals, which are buying an upside call and selling and downside put. And what the investor may be trying to um look for there is these stocks

have made a big run. I'm not necessarily sure I want to buy them right here, but if stock continues higher, I want to get back involved. And if they sell off, I'm gonna I'm gonna look to buy them on a tip. That all makes sense. Um, they were big trades, and they certainly had an impact. I think because of the reporting, the psychological aspect, the fact that people were looking for reasons um for market moves, I think that they probably had a bigger impact, and maybe they normally would have

been if it was an unknown trade that was just large. Yeah, that's that's the way we were looking at it. Chris All, this is fascinating, but it's time for the really important question. When it's time for a cheese steak. Are you a Geno's guy or a Pat's guy. I've always been going to Genos, so I'm gonna stick with Genos. I like them both, though, I like them both all right. I'm the shortest line guy myself. That's true though, that's Sarah.

We'll have to We'll have to get you there. I'm gonna have Yeah, I'm gonna have to make a trip out there. That's the most important reason for cheesecake. Chris, what one thing I wanted to ask it? I'm gonna warn you this might be one of my famous twelve part questions. You know, Sarah's as a derivatives guy, you know, who knows a lot about multi leg trades. I think he can handle a twelve part or what do you what do you think? Bring it on, Mike, I think

he can handle it. I'm getting used to answering multiple questions at once with four young daughters. Oh wow, for a little girls, Chris, you you have your hands fall. How many of them are fixed? My WiFi? Now? Dad? I'm ye, that's definitely an issue with virtual schooling. But Chris, you know uh. Warren Buffett famously years ago how a crack about derivatives being the weapons of financial mass destruction. And I think, you know, the reaction from most people

on Wall Street was like settled down war. And that's that's a little ridiculous. I mean, maybe, okay, find maybe the credit derivatives, but when it comes to you know, your your equity puts and calls, uh, no need for panic. But every now and then we do see an episode like this where you know whether it be you know, you remember when the t vix um e t F blew up, when the the inverse x I V volatility

e t F blew up. I feel like the closer you get derivatives, equity derivatives, even the closer you get them to the the retail investor um, the more likelihood there is for some drama um. And I wonder if this episode that we saw this summer, is there any concern And I realized again this might be a little bit out of your wheelhouse about what you think about

every day. But I wonder is there a concern about sort of some some scrutiny of the trading of options this summer from especially the mom and pop type of retail investors. UM, is that something that could be coming and UM, if you got dragged in front of Congress, I guess what would be your explanation on on what

retail investors need to know about put some calls? Do they need some further regulatory scrutiny when it comes to to sort of small fry individual traders or was just this just a random anomaly that we can sort of not worry about. Going back to talking about the UM the risks of these trades. When you're buying calls, the most you can lose is the amount you paid, So that's so that's one thing. Sizing it is is critically important.

You know, you don't want to take all your all your investment in Google stock, sell out of that and buy an upside Google call because you know the odds of it, you know, being if it's out of the money less than fifty even hit, you could lose all of your money. So you need to have the correct education. You need to size everything correctly to protect yourself. Now, in terms of this market, you know there's been statistics out there. Option volume compared to even UM equity volume

has risen so much. These weekly options are typically all a penny why they're incredibly tight, they're incredibly liquid. They're not OTC products. They're not you know, murky things that you don't really understand what you're getting into. They are are really tracked well. So I actually really think that, you know, so long as the education is there, so long as investors understand, um, the bet that they're making or the investment that they're making when they're getting evolved

in these options. UM, I don't think it's it's necessarily something where you know, where it's eighteen pages long and you're signing on something and you don't know what you know what what you're getting yourself into. Uh, these are, you know, like I said, the most liquid products probably

out there, UM, that investors are getting involved in. I believe it was Goldmen Sacks who had a recent report pointing out the fact that we actually saw more volume in the options market than in the cash equity trading UH market for the first time ever this year, which is pretty just crazy to think about. The guys at Susquehanna were popping champagne quirks. I think so so, Chris, I have to put you on the spot. I mean,

I'm just curious what you think then comes next. Obviously, there are so many other fundamental factors filtering into the stock market, whether it is fed policy, the fiscal cliff, because right now it still doesn't look like we have an agreement in Congress right now for another stimulus spill um, we're heading to the election, high valuations, whatever it might be. But this entire month, we have seen such volatility in

the NASDAC. I mean, at least of the day that we're recording, there's only been a single day a that the Nasdaq hasn't moved more than one percent. It just feels like every single day is all or nothing almost With this continued, I guess I can call it froth in the options market or just extreme activity in the options market. Is this just the new normal as long as that continues. It's a combination of two things. Technology

has just improved dramatically. You know, you used to have to call on a call a broker and wait online and pay a twenty five cent wide bid ask spread to to get involved in um in the options market. Now you can do it for free on your phone from anywhere, and and everything is so incredibly tight now in terms of the NASDAC volatility all through August, all through the summer. Even a lot of people are saying, Wow, this is crazy. This keep the NASDA keeps grinding higher.

This doesn't make any sense, This doesn't This is going to have to sell off at some point. It's too frothy, etcetera, etcetera. Now we're seeing that, we're basically seeing what's happening now is what we're expecting to happen and talking about happening for much of the summer um now looking for it along the calendar, we're getting pretty close to a giant event in the US election, and so I don't think

volatility is going to be slowing down anytime soon. We have looked at this election, the the amount of alatility price into this election compared to other elections, you know, by looking at non election volatility month of the VIX compared to the election volatility month, and it's price again more for this election than it hasn't in a number of years. Um. And then another interesting phenomenon that's just

been happening very recently, so for the entire year. If you're looking at we're talking about the VIX now, the VIX October futures. They look at the implied volatility a month out from October expiration that includes the election. Those have been the highest option on the board, and higher than the November which comes the following month for the entire year. Just recently now, uh, the November futures have

moved above the October futures. You know, I have really no opinion on the odds of a contested election and try to stay out of politics in general. But that is the thing that people are pointing at most as why, all of a sudden, after a full year of this not happening, are we expecting um more volatility in the month after the election than the actual election. So with that overhang, um, with all, with the nasdak um moving around so much, I don't expect volatility to be coming

in anytime soon. You know. It's it's kind of chilling it away when if you know, if you believe that sort of the hive mind of of the markets has a lot of sort of you know, the intelligence of crowds, the wisdom of crowds. That's that's kind of an alarming prospect to think about what the election coming up. You know, Chris that for a while there. To me, it looked like it would have been really tempting to play that tink in the vix curve that you mentioned, you know,

maybe sell October and by November. I guess that doesn't really make as much sense anymore, if if it ever really did. You know, what what would you you know, if I'm coming to you as a client saying I wanna I want to do something with this vixed curve for the rest of year, What's what's looking good to you?

What what type of trade would you want to get into? Well, yeah, we looked at the exact trade that you are talking about, um a few months back, and when October was way higher than November, and we said November might be a little bit under under priced here. Uh, now that that has flipped, it is really hard to have a strong opinion on on what's going to happen with the election

and a contested election. I mean, I will say two thousand twenty, the year that it has been, you know, a contested election seems to be pretty fit for everything else that that's been going on. You know, I don't, like I said, I don't really have a strong opinion on how I would take advantage of that right here. You know, if I was looking to hedge the election in general, um, you know, like I said, I think

volatility is gonna stay relatively high heading into the election. Uh. And you have a lot of tech earnings in October UM, So if I were to try to um position for the election, I think that with the tech earnings, and you're probably gonna see less correlation in those earnings. So maybe the stoction moving in different directions. Maybe the market doesn't actually move quite as much UM as it does now without those different catalysts pulling it in different directions.

Maybe I would look to sell some some October volatility, take advantage of some lower correlation activity in October, and just position for the November election. And and like I said, this is gonna be a real hard one to handicapped, and not really one that I have a strong opinion on. So I mean, it does seem very widely believed that we're going to have increased volatility heading into the election.

Something I noticed, Chris that I don't really understand. This week, I was looking at the v vix so volatility of volatility, and noticed that it fell to the lowest levels since February, so before all of this really began. How was that possible when expectations for volatility going forwards are high. That's

a that's a great observation, you know. The only thing that I can think of, because I really haven't looked at that this week, is the election event is such a sticky event that's going to keep because volatility works in both ways, volatility of the VIX, whether it's going to go lower or whether it's going to go higher. You have this election event that has pretty consistently been around thirty one thirty two for those October VIX futures. If you were to look at a lot of different

time frames, it's kind of been around there. So if you think it's gonna hold around there for the next month and a half, maybe it makes sense that the actual VIX is not going to be moving around quite as much because that's the volatility of the VIX. And if you have a sticky maturity out there for the election, maybe that could actually work to suppress the VIX. The VIX volatility, all right, sir, that's not bad for a Genos guy. I gotta say, I'll give it him. I'll

give it to him. Yeah, although I'm more of I'm I'm a local. I'm a local pizza place. Cheese steak guy, there's a good balanquin would was it just ballat pizzas or what it's called. That's a pretty good, pretty good to tell you what. I think. Guys are gonna kill me for not remembering. It's in the tip of my tongue and I just can't. I just can't. It's gonna

come to me right when it's open the podcast. You know, I'm so embarrassed now because I just realized you said cheese steak, which I should have understood with Philly and rather than cheesecake. She's really missing you through the zoom cheesecake. Okay, all right, Sarah. I was like, I didn't know cheesecake was a Philly thing, but I'll go with it. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'll you'll, I'll have a cheesecake.

I don't know if there's any good Philly cheesecake places, but anyway, I think that's good assign as any that it's that time. Charlie Pellett will tell us what time it is. Stand clear of the craziest things we saw in markets this week Sarah Um, I don't know how well prepared you are for for this particular episode of the Craziest Things we Saw on Markets. I'm gonna warn you though, I came. I came packing some heat. See

him coming big. I don't know if you did, though, because I heard from our Crazy Things correspondent that you may have asked for some help. So I did. I did. I asked Phil Donna. She totally let me down. Nothing worth it. And then I found my own. And Uh, I'll let Chris go, and I'll let you go. I'm not going to predict that I won just yet. Okay, I'll wait, I'll wait. Go ahead. First, I'll say, well, I expect Chris Is to be strong too, because I know he's a listener of the podcast, so he knows

what we expect every week from our guests. You've already put enough pressure on him. Uh. With all the answers, all right, let's start with you, Chris. What's the craziest thing you saw in markets this week? So I was waiting all week for Tesla to do something crazy, because I'm sure you don't have too many of those, and nothing ever happened. It's been pretty boring. In Tesla this week we talked about the vix Um contested election future situation. So I still have a couple more. I had a

serious one and a not serious one. Um First, on Wednesday, Kim Kardashian mentioned that she was going to shut down her Facebook for twenty four hours. Stock immediately dropped four dollars on the news down to round two and seventy bucks on the announcement, which equates almost a ten billion dollar drop in market cap. You know, stock was down almost twenty billion over twenty four hours after that. You know,

there was a rotation at a large cap tech. There was an FTC probe announcement, the FED announcement, but I have to imagine a lot of it was due to Kim. Sir, this guy is pretty good. I I I thought I had it in the bag this week, but that that is a good one. I remember you in the chat saying this can't really be happening. Kind of Well, I couldn't believe it because not only it did, I mean Facebooks a very large company with a very big waiting in all the benchmarks, but I mean you saw the

SMP saw that AzaC. I'll take a hit too, and it was just Kim Kardashian. That's just Kim being Kim, just Kim being Kim. Yeah, Chris, bravo, that was well done. Well done. That is I forgot about that too. I can't believe I forgot about that one. Alright, sir, that's the tough fact to follow. But what do you got? So? I feel like Kim Kardashian being able to move the stock market in is just very so. I also have a statistic that is quintessential um kind of in the

realm of the saying that stocks only go up. So Golden Sacks has an index that tracks the most heavily shorted stocks, and in the middle of this week, uh, that index hit a record So um one some pretty bad shorts. I may feel bad for anyone who has tried to short those names this year. I mean the fact that you have an index of the most shorted stocks and it's trading out a record high. I mean, come on out, Maybe we need we need an e t F that goes long all the most shorted stocks.

That that uh, then you can just short the whole thing if you want to, If you want to be short the most contrarian trade. That's pretty good. That's a pretty good one. All right. Well I'll give you mine. Um, Sarah, did you ever have a birthday party at Chuck E Cheese? I think I did. It may have been one of my siblings, but I remember it as if it was my own. Chris, something tells me you've you've had a few birthday You've at least spend a few birthday parties

at Chuck E Cheese. Is all right? I've probably been to about six and a half a year for the past ninety but not this year. All right, Well, nope, tell your kids about this story and watch their eyes go go googly. So Chuck E Cheese is in bankruptcy court right now, and they had to go to the court to get approval to destroy seven billion with a B seven billion of those prize tickets that they give out that you can get, you know, stuffed animal or

pencil eraser or whatever, with seven billion prize tickets. And they told the judge that it's enough tickets to a fill approximately six cargo shipping containers. And the cost to destroy all these is like two point three million dollars just to destroy these tickets. I can't be recycled I'm dumbfounded. Yeah, I don't know. The story doesn't get into that. I don't know how you destroy well, how do you recycle. I guess you recycle the paper, but I don't know.

You'd have some kids, you know, picking the trash, showing up at your Chucky Cheese with seven billion tickets wanting give me everything, give me the whole company. It's gonna be one lucky guy, lucky, one lucky eight year old Chris. If you got any of those tickets, you better cash mean while you can, might get you the robot at the top right, get you. That's right, you can have the guy in the Chucky Cheese costume come and cut

your lawn or something. Every prize in the store. I remember when I was younger, I I always only found enough prize tickets to get one of those. I don't know how to explain it. It's one of those half moon looking rubber things where you turn them inside out and they pop. When you're younger, they're really exciting. That was about the most exciting thing I could ever win with my tickets. They're still pretty exciting, all right. I

gotta give it to Chris. The the Kardashian market mover story is pretty darn good, Chris, well done, thank you, very well done, Very well done. A serious one. Yeah, so you said you had to a serious one and a not serious one. So before we let you go, you have to share your not serious one, because as you know, Mike and I are big fans of not serious things. Oh no, that So my other one was the Apple into day move this month has been around five percent a day. Uh, that's about nine billion dollar

change in market cap each day. So staying in that, in another way, Apple has been changed in value each day by basically the value of the entire company of Starbucks. So that's actually my series one. That's a that's a good one. That reminds me actually pretty crazy that none of us brought up snow either. Snowflake the company that I p oed uh at the end of its I p O seventy billion dollar company about the value of Goldman sachs Um and so many people hadn't heard of

Snowflake before. I know I hadn't. I know I hadn't. But we talked about great timing to be a cloud company come market now. But all right, Chris put it on the resume was winner of the Craziest Thing for the third week of September. Put that at the top, top of the awards and uh, what is it on your resume? Awards and other distinctions or something like the certificates.

Put it on there. Congratulator, I will, I will take anything, and I'll and I'll also say, Chris um, you had all the answers, so we're so so happy that we could have you on the show this week. Again, that was Chris Murphy with Susquehanna. Thanks for joining the show. Thanks guys, What Goes Up? We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal

website and app or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took the time to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And you can find us on Twitter, follow me at at Sarah Pontzack, Mike is that Reaganonymous, and you can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts. Also, thank you to Charlie Pellett of Bloomberg Radio and the voice of the New York City Subway System. What Goes Up as produced by Jordan Gospore. The head of Bloomberg podcast

is Francesco Levie. Thanks for listening, See you next time.