The New 60/40: 100/0?

rates have become the norm. Our guest walks us through where to find alpha, and as always, don't fret. We will close out the episode with our tradition the Craziest Thing I saw in Markets this week, Sarah, I'm returning to my roots in the alternative assets space for this this segment this week, I've got to say I'm really proud because a listener did right in and not only did he righte in, he had a prices right for you.

So we're going to turn the tables on you and you could also very much describe it in alternative assets. So don't you worry. I like the prices right element that listeners sliding into Sarah's DM. I believe what that's known as that's what's happening lately. Alright, fine, that's good,

we'll accept. We'll accept submissions that week. Also, Sara, a very perilous podcast this week because by my account, apart from the guest who I'll introduced in a moment within microphone range, we also have one puppy, one one year old baby I believe a year and a half, and one really loud mouth dog that that's my dog. So so this should be interesting. I don't be for success. I think we should at a cat. I believe a cat as well, So we should have a pool to

see which which of these disrupts the content first. But hopefully, hopefully we'll get through it with some silence from all the dogs and babies and cats part of the what goes up team here. But let's get to that guest first time on the show. We're very happy to have him. He is the managing director of t Assets Solutions at Man Solutions, which is a division of Man Group, the big hedge fund firm. His name is Peter vander Wert. Peter,

Welcome to the show. Hi, Thanks for having me. It's nice of a here, Yeah, Peter, I wanted to just start off by since Man Group is such a big company, runs a lot of different funds, a lot of different strategies. I'm just curious what the how the Solutions group works into the firm and your role specifically. I mean, my impression is that the solution groups kind of creates bespoke portfolios based on what certain clients need. Is is that a fair assessment of what you guys do? Yeah, that's

exactly right. So what we do in Man Solutions we reach across the engine. So Man has basically four distinct meaningful engines. We have a pure discretionary group called g LG. We've got a quant arm called h L which does a lot of trend and systematic strategies. We have Numeric which does more equity trading quantimental, and then some private markets.

Man Solutions kind of reaches across those various engines looking for things that we can use to help clients, whether it's based on risk control or generating now uh, but in a bespoke way. So the real overarching goal at Man solish is a bit to deconstruct the hedge fund and deliver exactly what clients need as opposed to trying to just keep giving them the same product or the

same product pitch. So to keep it pretty broad, I mean, considering where we stand in like you mentioned, bond yield extremely low, how much growth have you seen and how difficult has it become to kind of create come up with creative new solutions to get through the environment that we've been living in. So a lot of our clients are basically institutional investors. So the types that are grappling

with the broad bond problem for two reasons. And you know, the first half of the problem is that yields are really low and they have pretty high return objectives. Right, So your average pension in the US needs to make seven percent to meet the return target. If you own a one percent yielding as that, you're really not going to get there easily. Right, You need that much exactly, you need that much more contribution from bonds. And so

that's problem number one. And problem number two is sixty been really easy to run statically, Right, That's just it's a made up number. It's a made up construct. It's worked for thirty years and everyone quite likes it. Right, But if you get past the made up nous of it, it happens to be pretty stable because bonds contribute during a crash, and I think there's an increasing concern that maybe bonds don't have that much left to give in

the next crash. So if I don't make much money and yield, and I don't get much out of a crash, then what is it doing in my portfolio at all? As the question we get, Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up, Peter. I feel like I've edited about straight stories about the death of sixty forty and what's what's replacing everything in that? You sound like you're on the front lines of that. Is there really this legitimate groundswell

of people trying to reimagine that sixty? And granted, like as you said, that's a made up number, maybe you're really seventy thirty or fifty fifty if you're more conservative, but it really does seem like there's this mad dash to to sort of replace that forty with something a little bit uh, you know, better yielding than than treasuries at this point, you know, the sixty is kind of

the straw man that everyone uses that. I mean, by and large, i'd love to tell you that all of our pensions are treasuries, but I mean they've already taken a sneaky walk away from sovereign bonds, and they've picked up more corporate credit. They've picked up some high yield, so the forty doesn't exactly look like treasury bonds. The sixty, though, really does look a lot like equities, so that part

you know they're still looking for a return. And so one of the arguments I do get though, for people who use treasuries and still rely on them, as if you're a big five billion pension or a huge institution, what can you get that scalable like bonds are scalable. The nice thing about US deficit spending is that there's trillion of bonds available if you need to use them.

It's pretty hard to say I can get thirty trillion of gold, unless you know Elon Musk succeeds and sends something to an asteroid and minds a bunch of gold up there and brings it back, at which point it might not be worth exactly what you thought it was worth, but at least you have enough gold for your portfolio. Solution, Sarah, I think Peter has been listening to to my strategy there that I think so too. We've we've brought up

the asteroid a fair amount of times. I think it's come up on the last three shows somehow, I promise you, but I agree the topic. I think is the only one who will be able to do it, and I think it perfectly finally explains Tesla's valuations. But you realize there's a Twilight Zone episode that's predicated on them finding infinite amount of gold and they like go into like

some kind of deep sleep. They wake up five hundred years later and gold is worthless because there's infinite amount of gold in the world, so that the end isn't really good. You know, you you bring up you do bring up gold, And I want to ask you about gold, Peter, what is the role of gold in a portfolio? Right now? I feel like this year there has been a lot of back and forth about the use of gold. Some say, yes, it's an inflation hedge, Others say it's just a safe

haven um. Lately, though, the narrative has been that we're going to get a vaccine, whether it's from Visor and Maderna, a mix of the two, or even more we'll see growth pickup, we'll see inflation pick up. But gold has not been rising as it did earlier in the year. It's been falling, Like, what, what's the situation there? What's the case? Well, I think the problem with gold when people talk about is this tendency that we need to

explain to day's move based on something. Right, stocks were down, marketing crisis, gold is up, or you know something inflation is showing up, gold is up. I think if we really bottom line what's happening is, first, the Fed's kept rates low, so gold is an alternative, is not painful to carry, so there's nothing wrong with that. I do think there's a narrative calling it a safe haven. You know Cam Harvey, who you may have hund on before. I think it has talked about as a safe haven,

and I'm kind of with him. It's a little hard on portfolio construction to have assets that fall with equities as frequently as gold does, and it's a high vaal asset rights sev vold. It's as vulnatble as equities are, so it's not the easiest thing to use in your portfolio as a safe haven. But I see the logic of it right, you can kind of feel reliable. On the flip side, the inflation bit Cam has written a lot about that, you know, the fact that it seems

like gold prices way outstripped the level of inflation. What you see is it seems to be low level of rates that's pushing gold higher. So gold is quite correlated to bonds. So if I'm a big pension, I say, how do I replace my bonds? Maybe I should use gold. The first thing I find is that when equities fall, sometimes it falls, so that's not a good bond replacement. And the second thing I find is, over the last twenty years, it's been very correlated to bonds, which means

if bonds fall, it's likely gold fall. So that means I'm replacing a bond with something that's behaving a bit like a bond on a risk basis. So the whole narrative works. If the FED keeps rates controlled and we have inflation, that's when you want to own gold. It's a pretty narrow subset of things that might happen to make that really work. But then you'll see a funds and I think gold is very much a flow of

funds thing. You know, as much money and sentiment builds up, it keeps going and going and going, and so we like looking at that more on a trend basis, maybe you know, owning it in the trend and getting rid of it if the trend breaks, and using it in that kind of construction. But I think the big dilemma for all investors again the scalable concept, would you replacet of your portfolio with gold, And first you probably wouldn't. Second, there actually isn't enough gold out there right. The World

Gold Council has a cool website. You can check out a gold dot org and they tell you kind of what they think how much gold is above the ground and how much is in the ground. And there's a few trillion dollars of gold left in the ground. So that's not enough for the two trillion of financial assets to use as a diversifier. So in a way, gold is in terms of what could cause a superspike. There's

not enough gold out there. But it's also its own worst enemy because you know, if everyone needs it, there's just not enough of it. So it kind of doesn't fit a solution unless you're a niche investor. And so I do think some of our investors are a bit guilty of saying it's not scalable, so I won't use it. Well, it's scalable if you're running ten twenty billion dollars, right, It just isn't scalable for everyone. But I think of reliability is really the key thing, right, doesn't fit my portfolio?

Is it reliable? Does it kind of do what I want? If it goes down a lot in a crash, it's draining liquidity from me where bonds have historically given me liquidity. That's a big problem, right, So I think, well, we look at portfolio constructions. We want to make sure that the hedge like things, the diversifiers, don't take liquidity from you. Right.

It seems to me, um difficult, maybe impossible that if you are trying to replace that or whatever your your bond allocation is that you pretty much have to embrace more risk to do that, which is kind of goes against the grain of why you you have that in the safety of bonds to begin with. And what alternative I've I've heard a few times is well, look at some of the real cyclical currencies, you know, and if if you're you know, want sort of a hedge against

an economic slowdown. You could shut some of the glocal currencies. I guess, you know, maybe the keywi or the Ausy dollar or something like that that strikes me as especially risky. But is that, you know, does that fit into a possible body replacement? Is is sort of dabbling in the currency markets because I gotta say, you know, it's it's a treacherous place for people who aren't sort of dedicated to to that macro look view of the world and

and the currency. So you know, if I don't love gold given some of its risk attributes, and and it does work, I think in some portfolio constructions over a long term currencies are going to be a bit of a worry. So we do run hedging businesses tailheage type portfolios for clients. And actually Ausi dollar is one of

those currencies that does really badly in deflationary times. It's pretty reliable, and we like using options around it because options are often very cheap, so it's pretty cool to use in a solution with a lot of different things that might be going. So you have option hedges and indices and currencies and gold and credit as a composite that works pretty well, but if you're gonna start relying on it again for its slug of the fort there's a couple of things you gotta make sure you're right.

Pretty much, you feel comfortable in deflationary regime, but I bet you've had a lot of conversations about inflationary regimes lately, and you know, what is all this fiscal stimulus going

to do? And how how is it gonna look? Well, those currencies that look deflationary and bad times are going to go up in inflationary regimes, right, we should feel confident that commodities will go up with inflation, and so Ausie dollar could That means if you're not using options, you have kind of unlimited upside downside on this stuff, right.

And so if we're going to use the Ausie dollar and you're saying short it as a kind of a safe haven or a protective instrument for your portfolio, a big inflationary regime could be a bit of a shock, right, And the same might be for Canadian currency commodities. So there's there's quite a bit of difficulty anytime we start going a further afield from you know what bonds have done, right, Bonds were kind of always a nice risk off set. But one of the things we haven't even mentioned is

that correlations could change. Right, Bond equity correlation has been very reliable, and so we haven't been challenged with a unit firs where bonds and equities go down simultaneously since the nineties, right, maybe the seventies in terms of meanings full size. I think what we're going to see is

a lot of regime shifts going forward. I don't think we have a good grasp on what the aftershocks of the pandemic are, so we can have a lot of movement and currencies, a lot of movement in bonds different than what we're expecting. So you kind of alluded to where we're going with the bondary replacement argument in a sense, and maybe it's a two part discussion. The first part is should you replace bonds? And the second part is if you decide you shouldn't you know, do you go

to a a hundred percent risk on? And then what you know, how do you deal with a crash? And I think you kind of said maybe you should just go a d percent risk on And that's a little bit what we're looking at. What does it look like with a hundred percent risk on what are the tails, what are the crashes look and what can you do to mitigate

that crash risk? And you know, in our business people have been trying to replicate bonds for decades, and so they would take a bunch of positive carry stuff and staple it together, glue it in a basket, take a bunch of tail hedges and trend and interesting kind of defensive looking things and glue that together, mush it all together and make this Frankenstein that was going to be a bond replacement. And you can tell that I'm not a strong advocate of doing that kind of stuff um

these days. Though, if I start with a construct that bonds don't make anything, then maybe the construct for me is just to build something that's risk mitigating, right and try to reduce a drag. And that's the first step to having an all risk portfolio. So on that note, something you said that really resonates is the fact that we don't really know what the aftermath of the COVID

nineteen chok is really going to look like. And it makes me wonder, how can you go about having any conviction in portfolio construction or whatever it may be going forwards from this point in time when they're still are so many unknowns and so many questions about what the economy is going to look like post COVID one, we are actually even going to get to a post COVID world, I mean, it's really difficult to kind of make any decisions.

Feels like it does feel like that, And and the best way to kind of articulate our view on that as a firm is take a look at all the forecasts for the market at the beginning of the last four years right, and the strategists never get it right. And and we're not saying we're smarter, we're saying we probably wouldn't get it right either. We've got Cambridge and Oxford QUANTZ running all over the place in London, and

nobody's pretending that they can get that right. And so if none of us really can come together and get pretty decent forecasts, you know, as it is, if everyone's forecasts were right, then the market woul immediately moved to the forecast right. We can kind of accept this as an odd tautology, but given that none of us can forecast it right, our view is that going forward, we can't get the regimes. It's not quite the same as we remember everything. So maybe directly attacking risk is the

way you have to go. So, you know, tail hedging is very expensive, but there are things you can do with futures, and there are other things you can do to start attacking the specific risk profile of your portfolio. And I think the whole conversation about bonds, you never really had to explain any to anyone how well bonds didn't make as much during a crisis as we thought

because they kind of kept doing what you needed to. Now, going back to the gold and the FX and tailhaging, all these conversations, when they don't work, you wind up with this. What happened was conversation and and no c I O of a pension or no investor in a fund, No one likes to hear what happened was as the first few words introducing what went wrong? Right, Nobody ever says what happened was, we really did a great job and we made a lot of money for you. It's

always what happened was different from what we expected. And so you know, as we talk about bond replacements, what we really want to have is things that just directly attacked the exact risk we have and maybe we have to accept that there's a drag associated with doing that kind of exact risk attacks. Oh you know, if I'm going to use the Japanese yend the hedge equities and it doesn't work, I can lose a lot. Whereas if I use you know, puts and I spent a little

too much, I know it's gonna work. And that's the real tension, Like how do I reconcile between the cost of mitigating risk and the potential return? Sir? I I can't get that image of Cambridge and uh, who's the other one? Where the clans for Cambridge Cambridge at Oxford quantz running all over London. It's it sounds like a muddy python or a Betty Hills kids. And the truth

is they probably never moved from their desks. But period, you know, you bring up tail risk kedging and I assume the best I don't know, Maybe the only way to do that is in is in the options market. Um, and what a crazy year it's been for the options market.

I mean, we we've come around to this idea that the retail day traders of the world sort of became almost this new whale in the options market, and correct me if I think if I'm sort of off based in that description, but at least in the press, that's kind of the picture that's been presented. Has this new sort of mom and pop or maybe it's college kid in a basement day trader, this whole new class of of options player. Have they really shifted sort of the

complexion of the options market? Is it a permanent shift? And you know, boy, I would think for a sophisticated shop like yours, that's kind of easy pickings to sort of to sort of exploit this kind of this kind of new fast money coming into the market. I know that's a twelve part. I was actually thinking that was ten parts, but that's less. But answer however many parts you feel like it's a bit like quiz sho. I'll

take the fourth part first. So so the first part, you know, maybe i'll broadly talk about what I think is happening in option. So to begin with the retail

dynamic is a big change. So we used to see retail investors buying the short vall et F products like the x I V and of course we all remember the spectacular outcome and keep in mind that the VALL industry has created a long vall only product called the v x X, which is down from it's high, and created a short VAUL product that was loss in a day. So you know, it's the same underlying after all. So

it's a little confusing I think too investors. But they still they keep seem want to come back to these sort of things, these these structured products. But what I will say is that's a shift one that they're really not selling vall the same magnitude as they used to be. And and you are right, they've turned buyer of sorts. Right, So just looking at the top five text stocks, we saw about thirty billion dollars in in volume a day trading in two thousand nineteen. Decent sized number, it sounds

like a lot. That number in August of this year was as high as a hundred twenty billion, so that's a lot. And retail investors, you know, there's a big day trading component. They tend to want to buy low cost options. That doesn't mean they're cheap, that means they're short order dated, right, A one year option costs a lot more than a one week and if you want the most bang for your buck, especially as a day trader,

you'll go for short dated options. So that's a real dynamic their net buying them, the market makers who sell them have to kind of hedge around it. They have to make a lot of moves sup portfolio. So we saw some vall spikes even as the market was going up, Vault was going up. That's a pretty unusual phenomenon. We only saw it kind of. You could flippantly say, we know how that ended, but it took a while for

that to end. Right, So it's a transitory thing that retails playing a lot of options, but how long at lasts? You know, it could be a work from home for thing. We can probably attribute something to that. If you're making some money, you keep doing it. So that's one. But there are a number of other transitory and structural changes to the market, and maybe I'll run through them quickly. You know, the elections passed, that was transitory, or at

least it's almost past, you know, so let's assume it's past. Yes, we'll just have we'll footnoted in you know, typical fashion subject to terms and conditions, what where they um? So, so that's passed two degree? Right, we still have the George outcome. I don't know that changes the balance of

power enough to have big legislation, but that's there. The pandemic, although it doesn't feel transitories after all, transitory as well, right, So at some point the pandemic will be over and things will normalize and maybe that's unfortunately a year out or less, depends on your vaccine view. So those transitory things passed, but they're largely responsible for the fact that volves about double where it was when the SMP was here earlier in the year, so doubles a lot higher.

So that's kind of we need to see that all clear up. But there's the structural change, which we keep coming back to the same problem, which is the bond problem. You know, if bonds aren't the best thing to diversify your portfolio and protect you, it may mean that you're

going to tailhedging. And so although tailhdging is twice as expensive now as it was in January, people might be more drawn to it, partially because they need to do something defensive with less return from bonds potentially going forward, and secondarily because the market has gone up a heck of a lot, and so you know, an option might look expensive to a professional vall guy, but to someone buying a PUT saying, I think this marketing, it's cheap

to the intellectual scenario of things could be really bad. And that's certainly true in tech stocks. Right, we have plenty of stocks. If it costs you five percent to buy out of the money put, if everything goes back to normal, you just made seventy in your head, right, that seems pretty good. And so I think that's part of the dynamic as well. I think it's that time. Oh, it is that time. Indeed, hopefully Peter came prepared for

that time. I was forewarned that very special time. Stand clear of the craziest things we saw in markets this week, Sara, Let's start with whoever is sliding into your d M s. I I no one slides into my d M S. I don't know why. I don't no idea. I'm gonna every next time someone mice on Twitter, Reaganonymous, it's a great Twitter handle. The ms are open. Good, what did what they say? So we're gonna play a little bit

of prices, right. This comes from at Jamie Blascow. B Uh, he said, maybe you can play the price is right with Mike this time. So I'm gonna run you through this scenario here, both of you. Basically a racing pigeon. Uh So, first of all, I did not know that pigeon racing was a thing. Apparently it very much is. But there was an auction recently for a racing pigeon. I'll give you some details. Belgian bread, supposedly top of the pack. Um, So, how much do you think this

racing pigeon went for? Oh? I like this guy. I can't participate because I read this, so I'm not going to pretend air edition. I don't have I told you you're a natural at this Peter, I should have just gone for like five thousand dollars away from the price, but we would have been amazed at how how correct you were. Does this pigeon have a record, you know, win loss record? We can look at um. So I

don't have the win loss record in front of me. However, I can tell you that this is a winning pigeon. This is this is an elite pigeon. You're telling this is the the Hussain Bolt of pigeons. I take exactly Okay for that pigeon, I would bid five dollars for that pigeon. That's actually pretty good at a starting point, because I was in the tens just thinking there's a crazy person who's got ten. All right, you're ready for this,

You're ready for this. A wealthy Chinese pigeon racing fan put down a record price at one point six million euros, which comes out to one point nine million dollars for this one. And the purpose, I guess is he already owns another pigeon that is also an elite pigeon, and I think the goal is to breathe the two to create an extra elite Oh oh my god. It's a like making bitcoin at that price. So race mining mining pigeons, well,

well now I'm fat. Now I I will not be able to think of anything else until I research racing pigeons. It's going to get really into pigeon racing. Now, grab now you now that you're getting into you know that that that bubbles over exactly, that's right, I know, right, yeah. Once I find out out about it, I'm like the shoeshine boy of the pigeon racing world. I got it. It's amazing. I got a head it to that guy. That's pretty good, I I said to him immediately, I said, yes,

this is amazing. I will absolutely play prices right with Mike, and I'm glad that we got to flip the tables on you this time. Because it's it's a hard game. You have nothing to compare it to. You have no idea what a previous racing pigeon has gone for. It's difficult. I know the price discovery and racing pigeons, but yeah, it is bad. All you have to be is anchored,

and you could just be wrong. I thought I thought I was going to anchor you by saying five thousand dollars off because I thought you'd be in the hundred thousand range by so much for behavioral finance, almost two million. But I mean it makes you. It leads you to believe that there are people that must be betting some pretty serious bucks on on racing pigeons. If you're gonna if you're gonna buy one for two million, I mean, that's like a thoroughbred Kentucky Derby winner type of pa.

Maybe not a winner, but I'm very confused about how is there a track set up for the pigeons? They can fly? How do they stay on the track. I don't really understand. I guess I'm gonna have to look this up, but I think this is in the messenger pigeon genre. Yeah, if I didn't, I didn't read the whole article because once you get past the price, you're kind of, you know, intellectually, it's hard to say what's gonna what's gonna compel me to really say this is

the right price? And it totally fits right, all right, Peter, Well, I gotta say, you got a tough, tough factor beat. Can you beat the racing pigeon for one point nine million? Was it? Wow? Well, no, I can't give you absurd because it's you know, that's that's at But the thing that I thought was pretty interesting. So after the vaccine hits, we we saw big shifts in momentum stocks. You know, growth got a decent hit and maybe value gotta jump. But one of the things I thought was pretty fascinating

just watching Zoom over the course of the year. And I'm not making an opinion at all about the relative valuation of Zoom, whether you should buy or sell it, because that's not our bag. But I do think it's pretty fascinating watching a stock go from seventeen billion to a hundred sixty billion, you know, as a replacement to the entire airline sector in the U S and the entire hotel sector, And so Zoom at one point was worth more than those two sectors combined. And actually I thought, Okay,

well that's crazy. But then after the vaccine hits, Zoom fell fifty billion in market cap and those two sectors picked up fifty billion in market cap. So I thought it was just kind of a fascinating maybe that's how it was supposed to turn out kind of day. Regardless of whether you think Zoom should replace the entire airline and lodging industry in the United States or so, I thought it was pretty interesting. And it's a sign of a lot of things that are going on in the market.

So even when we see the market steadily churning a bit higher, there's a lot of crazy stuff going on beneath the surface of this, and a lot of rotations. And you know, what's Zoom worth, what's you know, what's work from home look like a year from now? And I think we all got to grapple with that, in addition to all the other things we've got to worry about in our portfolios. Absolutely, absolutely, that's a pretty clean rotation.

They're fifty billion out of Zoom and it was straightforward just but you've got a lot of planes and hotels for that, right. It's pretty amazing when you look at some of the runs, some of the pickups and market cap that we've seen in individual companies this year and what's come out of entire industries and just comparing them,

I mean, it is, it's absolutely, it's wild. And after all, Amazon pioneered this right in retail spaces very small market cap to Amazon's market capitalization related to retail, right, And so they're converting ten pe multiple kind of businesses into hundred multiple right, So every dollar they take has a huge multiple sign. So I guess it's okay in that context, but it's pretty fascinating to to to watch it kind

of evolve over time. Yeah, it doesn't seem sustainable in the longer run though, I guess, well, it never feels sustainable. But then, I mean, in two thousand, would you have guessed that Amazon would be worth a trillion and a half. You would. I'm the tailheage guy, so I would have been sitting there and in two thousand two. I would have had all this, you know, victory celebrating. All right, I gotta prices right for you too. Now, Uh, this

is in the alternative asset space. And when I say alternative, I mean it, uh maybe not, maybe not. That's about as alternative as it gets. This is uh courtesy the BBC. Uh. This was an auction that occurred in in the UK, so you'll have to price this in uh in sterling. A lock of Elvis Presley's hair sold at auction in the UK. Apparently Elvis had this barber who used to travel around with him and cut his hair. And the guy, I would you know, the hair that would fall into

like the smock that he put around Elvis. He'd packed it up, putting in his bag, and then when he'd get home, he'd unload all this hair and say, you know, maybe the fans would like this, so we'd give out little snippets of hair to fans. And then I guess the guy went broke and started selling the locks of hair to two people. So this Elvis hairlock was sold to a collector who resold it recently in the UK in pounds sterling. Peter, what would you pay for a

a lock of Elvis Presley's hair. Well, that's a great out because you just told me what I would pay, so I don't actually have to get and I can say I would say I pay very little for it because I just wouldn't believe it's real. Okay, well rephrased any way, just just you know, let's say I had to make a market for like and so I'm gonna I just don't think it's worth a pigeon. So I'm gonna sit there quietly at a hundred thousand and and

and call it a day. It's the most I feel like I can lose on this, and you know, maybe I can find someone a year or two. All Right, I'm trying to keep my poker face and not give it away. Sarah, I feel like I have a comparison here, so Peter, just so you know. In another in another episode, Mike, I kid, you not brought us, uh, Michael Jackson's ivy basket, which went for a lot less than we had expected it to go for it. It's extremely creepy. It's very creepy.

But what I'm thinking is that if Michael Jackson's ivy basket went for much less, than expected. Then hair lock can't have no way. It went for a hundred thousands, so I'm gonna go a little bit lower. Uh, I'm gonna go with thirty thousand. And I still think I'm okay. I like that deductive reasoning you employed in there. I like going first. I was gonna guess over. I would have guessed over both of you guys, because again I think I feel like the hair. You could clone Elvis

with this hair. Someday some mad scientists could clone Elvis. So you gotta you gotta factor that into evaluation. But there's only four thousand quid that it was really low. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I think it's a six figure collectible. But I guess who knows. Maybe this barber has just flooded the market with Elvis sarabocks. Yeah. Well, let's hope that the listeners don't actually attribute my skill at pricing

construction skill. Most people don't want to erode all The tax avoidance of my strategy is quite good, I am, honestly, I am. There's nothing to compare them to. I am so off every single week. It's tough. I picked I picked the tough ones. I picked up I would I would tell you though, you guys, I would have I would have taken I would have gone above both you so so so pretty good, good, good good answers, I think, But sorry, is that? Are you off the hook then?

With your didn't come with one? And Peter and I've got to do it just because we haven't mentioned it in so long. Uh and again this could also be described as a cop out, but I'm going to go ahead and mention bitcoin because we've a rise about eighteen thousand for the first time, up a hundred this year. It's almost as if it came out of nowhere. At the beginning of the air we close to seven thousand, so bitcoin hype coming back pretty crazy. You could buy

four Elvis hairlocks from one bitcoin at this point. Well, I know the three of us could chat for likely hours longer, but I know we've already gone well over our time limit, so we've got to leave it there. Peter van joy Wert, thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, thank you for having It's quite fun. What goes up. We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and

app or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took the time to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And you can find us on Twitter, follow me at Sarah pont Sec, Mike is that Reaganonymous, and you can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at Podcasts. Also thank you to Charlie Pellett of Bloomberg Radio and the voice of the New York City Subway System. What Goes Up is produced by Jordan Goscore. The head of Bloomberg podcast is Francesco Levie.

Thanks for listening, See you next time.