The Bull Case for Gold

mid nineties. That's about as fresh as I get. With the references. I should know it. Maybe I'm just I'm just out of it all right, Well, X files, X files. Get on the Netflix and watch some X files. It will all make sense my whole if I haven't been watching enough Netflix these days. But this week on the show, Mike, different asset classes across financial markets are giving off pretty strong messages. Real yields in the US are deeply negative, while the US dollar actually just had its worst July

in a decade. That all as precious metals have become a quasi obsession with gold futures touching two thousand dollars announced for the first time ever. So what's it all telling us? And of course we will close out the episode with our tradition the craziest thing I saw in markets this week? And if you saw something crazy, please do give us a call on the Bloomberg Podcast hotline at six four six three to four three four nine oh, or tweet to us at podcasts and maybe we'll play

your voicemail or read your tweet on the show. Sarah, we did get a pretty interesting voicemail. Uh, no spoilers, but I think our friends in the crypto currency world will appreciate this one, so we'll get to that at the end as well. We have been asked to speak a little bit more about crypto lately, so maybe and this is a question that Mike and I may not have answers to, so maybe some of our listeners well, and if you do, like Mike said, give us a call. Yeah.

I can't give any serious answer about anything crypto. It'll all be insulting to all the crypto people, so I will not proffer an answer to this one. But hopefully you can figure out this riddle for us. Like Molder and Scully and call us call us up and let us know when once you get to that, listeners call I know we're teasing the listeners a lot with this, with this setup, but but anyway, Sarah, as you said, really interesting guests this week, first time on the show.

He is the head of North American macro Strategy for State Street Global Markets and his name is Lee Farridge. Lee, welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Mike, thank you for having me. Lee. I think you've got the Molder and Scully reference, right, I certainly I got Molder and Scully. I've got to I've got to do my homework from now on. Certainly, you know, I want to get to what Sarah said at the beginning there with

gold and the dollar. But before we get to that, I want to ask you about what's going on in Washington, d C. I know you've been paying pretty close attention to sort of the sausage making, as they say in d C. As far as what is going on with the prospects for another round of fiscal stimulus, Why don't you walk us through what it looks like from your seat? You know, what can we expect in terms of another spending bill, and what do you think it all means

for markets going forward? Well, I think I think for the economy in general, a market specifically, it's vital that we've got another package. And there's no doubt that the Cares acts really did bail out the economy back in Q two. So the unemployment insurance supplement runs out on July thirty one. You know, the other PPP loans can get converted to grants. During the course of August, we

have the moratorium mon evictions. The Care's package was was a temporary stop gap, but huge measure, and now we need another one because the GDP dats of you two showed we're still in the midst of this is Jerome Power talked about at the latest FED meeting. Data is actually deteriorated since the middle of June. We need more coming through from Congress and at the moment it's stuck. There was an attempt to try and pass a just just one part of it, which was the unemployment insurance supplement.

Doesn't look as if that got through, and it was only the third of the level it was out before. So yeah, this is a huge deal. Markets are reacting to it. To an extent on the basis that the heavy lifting is going to continue with the FED, so they're going to continue to have to be as dubbish as Power talked about, um. And that's why we're seeing so the gold continue to go up, euro you know, the dollar go down. But even if we get the fiscal package, it it's almost like a bare minimum. We

have to get it. Like you said, on the monetary side, when it comes to the FED and durn Power, we know that there of support there. They have made it abundantly clear that they are on the market side, they will do absolutely whatever is necessary. Now on the fiscal side, do you have a sense of what the bare minimum is? I mean, what is the bare minimum that has to come through from the fiscal package for markets to not

throw a fit? I mean, sure, before we had heard of two hundred dollars floated before replacement for that unemployment boost, I mean, would would that have even been enough? It may be enough to keep the market relatively happy, but actually when we start to see the data in the next month or so, we'll see it isn't enough. Um. So your two hundred dollars is a third of where we were before So to put that in context, in May, that six hundred dollars is worth one point three trillion

to the U S consumer. It's seasonally adjusted annualized rates, which is where you look at personal income, so you're looking at the third of that. That's that's a huge drop UM. And with the unemployment rate still as high as it is UM and the potential next week when we get the payrolls report for July that we won't

see much of improvement in the labor market picture. So I think that two hundred dollars might be enough to calm the market to an extent, but I think it means that actually the day to go forward is is going to get bad again. Ell. Yeah, I wanted to shift to the talk about the dollar a little bit now. I'll warn't you. I tend to ask questions that have about twenty seven parts in them, soah, so, so you

might need to take some notes. But you know, obviously the dollar has just been weakening very aggressively in the last few months. Last time I looked at sort of the broad indexes down at like a two year low for the d X Y and the Bloomberg version of it. Now I know the bearrish case for the dollar is pretty simple. The twin deficits, the the government budget depthsit and the trade depth sit are are very bearished for

the dollar. They have been for several years now, and a lot of people predicting barishness for the dollar have kind of gotten burned. But this time it really does seem like those sort of ranges that we've seen in the dollar are going to break, that we will see some potentially some more weakness starting to hear people talk about the risk of the dollar's role as a reserve currency. Do you think that's part of it? Uh? Is it time to start worrying about the dollar its position as

a reserve currency? Or is this weakness more just you know, the the other fundamentals, the twin deficits and that sort of thing, and that basically you know, the idea that that this fiscal depths it's not going anywhere, it's gonna be huge for a long time. Or you know, is there any sort of risk of to the reserve currency status that that might be applay in this weakness. I

don't think really it is about the reserve stasis. I mean, I think it is more to do with the fundamentals this if these are normal FX market moves, I mean the dollar euro dollars traded at one sixty in the history of the euro, and it was still the dollar was still the reserve currency. So there's a difference between the dollar being weak and the dollar losing its reserve

currency status. But what has been a trend for a number of years now, last couple of years in particular, is the share of dollars within global reserves has been going down. It's still the dominant currency, but it's probably around sixties six of global reserves now it was up at And I think the fact is as the US withdraws from the world, which it has done over the last few years, then you know, other currencies have that potential to two or central banks around the world probably

will make a more balanced reserve portfolio. Now, the dollar is still going to be the biggest means of exchange, so commodities are still priced in dollars. Oil is still priced in dollars, and that means that it's still going to be the dominant currency within reserves, but is it going to be as high as it on? Us know? And I think you know the euro is now coming

forward as as somewhat of a viable alternative. I think the the common Fiscal package that was agreed a couple of weeks ago that was significant, maybe not in terms of the numbers, but in terms of the message, in terms of taking that step to a common fiscal policy. So, you know, for once during the crisis, I'm not hearing people talking about the Eurozone breaking up, which has been every crisis we've had in the past. Oh, could this be the end of the Euro? No, we're not getting

that now. You know, Christine Legarde has come in and she has you know, carried on the drugging whatever it takes mantra, and at the same time you've now got the politicians stepping up with this this more common fiscal policy that means the euro is am or viable alternative. The remember is becoming more having more of a role within global reserves, still small, but I think what you're looking at is is reserves becoming a bit more balanced.

But the dollar is still going to be the reserve currency. It's still the main global means of exchange and therefore it's still going to be the dominant currency within global reserves. But that doesn't mean it can't weaken further. That doesn't mean you can't have the dollar weakening against the euro and other currencies whilest maintaining reserve currency status. There there are two different things. So in your view, what actually

is it that's driving a weaker dollar. I mean, I've heard a couple of different narratives, one being simply that the US has not gotten coronavirus cases under control relative to other countries around the world, one of course being growing deficits or inflation. Is it possible at a pinpoint something, and if so, what does that mean for how much further the dollar can actually be appreciate it? Well, I

think it's it's a combination of those factors. But but what they do is they manifest themselves in this debasement of the dollar. And by that what I mean is real interest rates in the US have plummeted. You know, you look at the break even as you look at the tips that real interest rates have really sharply depreciated in the US over the last few months. And you know,

it's a simple question of supply and demands. So the Fed is doing all of this, it has to do, you know, in terms of printing money expanding the balance sheet. We need desperately need more on the fiscal side. So it's a supply and demand. Money is like anything else, supply and demand. If you increase the supply, which we're seeing in dollars, significant increase in supply, and there's no

increase in demand, what the price has to fall. Now normally people say, well, that would be inflation, and we think about inflation. Is consumer price inflation? We're not seeing that, and then we're not seeing a pickup in in inflation. And the GDP reports showed the inflation in Q two declined. But where we are seeing in play. The reason why we're not seeing consumer price inflation is because there's no demand.

If prices of goods go up, people are unemployed, wages aren't going up, they won't be able to buy them, so demand will go down. So where we're seeing the inflation come through or the debatement the dollar come through is in asset prices. So that's in gold, it's in equities, it's in the dollar on the foreign exchange markets. Even treasury is treasury yields are going down. That means that the treasury values are going up. So every asset class is going up in price against the dollar. The dollar

is being debased against those asset classes. But you're not seeing that traditional inflation in the high street. And it's very hard to have that traditional inflation in the high street without wage inflation. And that's not on the horizon now, is jero and Power has mentioned? You know, we didn't get wage in place in three and a half percent unemployment. We're not going to get over eleven percent unemployment. But you can still see asset price inflation. And that's what

we're witnessed in the debatement dollar through asset prices. Yeah, I think you know, whenever sort of a equity bull in the US, here's the words doll dollar weakness. You can see their eyes light up, and you know and assume that that is, you know, gonna be unequivocal bal bullish signal for for equities. Do you think that's the case this time? Given everything else you've talked about, this lack of demand and the sort of nationalist sentiment around

the world. Now, this US withdrawing from the rest of the world and China specifically, is a weaker dollar, is it? Is it as easy as a call as it used to be to say, weaker dollar means higher stock prices, at least on the index level. You know, obviously can go under the hood and pick out who has more export exposure. But from a macro level, is it's still weaker dollar equals great for stocks. Well, I mean, it's what was saying right now. Um, you know, it still

continue to go up. And I'm you know, I've been surprised over the last couple of months. I I didn't expect stocks to do this, but I've been bullish on gold for a long time, you know, and and when the crisis happened, once we got through the liquidity issues and US rates at zero and the Fed we're doing

what they're doing, I was negative on the dollar. I've been shocked by how the value of equities can get so divorced by the fundamentals, because ultimately there has to be a relationship between growth and equities, because earnings have to matter. So what we've got now, if you look at forward p ratios for the SMP, we're at the highest for nineteen years. We're in the midst of a pandemic.

You know, we're somewhere between a recession and depression. Although there's no strict definition of the difference between the two. But the fact is that the equity valuations are at nineteen year highs. Yeah, and and and that to me makes no logical sense. But then when I look at it in terms of the dollar debasement story, then yeah, you know, it's hard to to really turn bearish on equities when we have the moves going on in terms

of policy that we're seeing. So, you know, everyone talks about the NASDAK and how great the Nazdak is, and you know, yes, it's up eighteen percent this year, which is given what's happened since the start of January is is amazing, But the SMP is flat for the year. Even that in itself can be amazing. Gold is up twenty nine since the start of the year. So, yes, equities are doing well and in saying Nazdak is hit all time highs et cetera. But actually other asset classes

are doing better. If you if you look at Treasury index since the start of the year, it's outperformed the SMP. If you were long of a treasury index, you've outperformed the SMP since the start of the year. So stocks at face value are doing well, But actually when you look at them relative with a lot of other asset classes, they're not doing as well as you might think, apart from a select few. And that's where the valuations get really,

really hard. It might seem as though a year in which gold has very strong returns and then treasuries have very strong returns, yet you still have the nasdak up double digits. Some would say something has to break. We can't see this continue together. But is there a scenario where this can continue? Considering the fact that real yield I mean ten, you're real yielder at record lows near negative one percent, and Jerome Powell keeps on reiterating that

the Fed is not even thinking about thinking about raising rates. Yeah, I think there are actually three thinking about I was thinking about thinking about thinking about to add one in this time. I mean everything when you when you study economics, when you're an economist as I am, everything tells you you can't just keep creating money this way without there being a price at some point, and that price ultimately comes in the form of inflation. But you know, we've

we've seen it in Japan for for twenty years. Yeah, we've seen the budget deficit go out. You know, the government debt grads children GDP. We've seen the b J continue to expand the balance sheet. It's never translated into inflation on the high street. Because we have this situation in the global economy hour and developed markets where you have this huge level of inequality. So for a vast number of people, wages are not going up and therefore spending power isn't going up. So it's very hard for

companies to raise prices. So consumer prices and you have the Amazon effect and others, you know that they're keeping prices down. You have transparent pricing, so you don't see it come through into consumer price inflation. You see an asset price inflation. It doesn't no, I don't think it can last forever. But you know we've seen in the case of Japan it it's gone on for a long time. And as you say, the message from jer own power, and this is why you know we see real yields

in the US record lows. The record from you know, the very clear message from your own power is even when we start to recover, we're not going to start raising rates for a long time. You know, the market with price for about five years for the first FED rate hike. You know, when that's the situation, you've got to think inflation expectations have to rise, and that's manifesting

itself in in asset prices. Walk us through your reasons for being bullish on gold, because I confess I can never quite wrap my head around what the the you know, current days catalyst is for gold. I remember a few years ago, people would talk about the actual physical demand for gold out of India and the number of weddings India, and I was like, it's trying to make sense to me now, But but but is it all just about the money supply basically? At least right now? It seems

like it is that. Is that just trump everything else? Right now? Yeah? It does. I mean that that it's not about supply and demand. It's it's it's about demand. It's not about you know, it's about market demand rather than than than weddings in India. But yeah, I mean the fact is that the again going back to the supply and demand of money, if you if you massively increase the supply of dollars without an increase in demand,

then the price of that has to go out down. Therefore, people seek out hard assets, and gold is the ultimate hard asset, and that's that's why it this. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not a gold expert or a metal person by any means, but you know, I say I've been bullish on gold for probably the last twelve months or so on the basis that I've always worried that that we had a bubble in markets and that at some point we were going to see the Fed have to cut rates and we would see QUI

starts to rise again. Obviously did not foresee the pandemic, but I've been worried about it, you know, for a while now, you know, basically since the end of twenty eighteen or Q four eighteen, when the FED tried to shrink the balance sheet, when we had constated tightening and and yield started to move up, and what happens, equities crashed off in Q four eighteen, the Fed back away

started cutting rates again. In it's like they're never getting out of this balance sheet where it is now, so the next downturn that happens, we're going to see more quie. And that's sort of led to my my bullish view on gold. Twelve eighteen months ago, So you became bullish on gold quite a while ago. How much does it how far does it take you? Then? Is there something

that can happen that would then change your mind. The thing that would probably change my mind is if, well, if we get a vaccine, things starts to recover and we start to get inflation on the high street, and

the Fed then has to to quickly backpedal. But until that happens, as long as you know the Fed, they're going to keep adding in liquidity, and as as long as rates are going to be at zero UM and your own pal is not even thinking about thinking about thinking about raising rates, then you know gold is going to continue to go up. And how do you put a value on gold? This is the problem with with equity is this is where I have a problem. Right, So I look at actors, they should be related to earnings.

Gold is I don't know how you put a value on gold. I mean, I've said for a while, I've got a target in two and a half thousand. You know, I've had that for for a little while, so I'm sticking with that for now. But but really it's it's not it's not about a price target for me. It's about the conditions behind it. So if the conditions continue to be as they are now, then gold will continue

to get supportive. At before we get to the craziest things. Um, I know you've been keeping a close eye on Brexit. As I like to call it, a never ending story of Brexit. This is like a soap opera in its tenth season at this point. Uh, but walk us through every I don't know how what four years? I guess it was sixteen, right, wasn't it. Yeah, out of that changed history two thousand and sixteen. We'll all remember that one.

Walk us through. Uh, what's next for Brexit and if there are any sort of potential market uh implications that we should know about. Yeah, I mean there's a very clear sort of date for Brexit now. It is December thirty one. The UK will leave the Eurozone on December thirty one, come what may. The question is whether they leave with a withdrawal agreement or not. And the way things are right now, it's not looking optimistic. There was meant to be an interim agreement agreed in July that

that didn't happen. They had to June thirty to actually extend the date of leaving beyond the end of this year, and they Boris Johnson, this government said they were not going to do that, and they didn't do that. So December thirty one is set in stone. And then in July there was meant to be an interim agreement that didn't happen. Um and so we are where we are.

And and the problem is one of the problems is obviously that the pandemic, the virus is as you know, the focus is not on Brexit negotiations within the European Union. It's on trying to revive the economy. You know, similarly in the UK in a lot of ways. So you know, these issues that are still the fundamental issues that have been there since the since the referendum vote, which is how in the UK have access to the Single market whilst maintaining sovereignty over its laws and borders, and the

EU say you can't. If you want access to our single market, you have to allow free moon of labor and free movement of capital and you have to accept our laws, and the UK said, we're not doing that. So it's hard to see how they get an agreement. So you know, the market is not I mean sterling's doing fabulously while strings back over one thirty. You know, it's along with the dollar going down. We're seeing sterling

rally along with the euro. But I do think at some point during the second half of this year we have to start looking at that and working out, well, if the UK does leave without an agreement with which at the moment to me is the most likely scenario, then that has to be another big blow for the UK economy. Do you believe these deadline the deadline over at the end of the years is literally set in stone. I mean a lot of these dates, a lot of these deadline dates have been set in sort of you know,

whiteboard marker. They raised pretty easily. But this this time it's real. Huh. I think this time in Israel. Yeah, I mean it's an Act of Parliament. Yeah, it's set in stone as much as it can be setting stone. You know what's crazy is that in a year that would have been so dominated by politics, Brexit, the U S election. Sure we're hearing about the election more so now that we are entering August, but it has completely

taken a back seat. Yeah. No, absolutely, I mean there should have been a big political year as you say Brexit, the U S election, um, and you know, you look at the polls on the US election, and the potential for a blue wave has to be you know significant now, that's what the polls are telling us. And yet the market is is really not focused on it yet and it has to become focused on it, you know, pandemic or not. We have to start working out what what

does the potential Biden presidency mean? And the market isn't there yet. I suspect after the summer, when when we get into September, then I think people will start trying to pass out. You know, what is Biden likely to do? What's it likely to mean? But but you know it's later than I would have thought. Well, I guess if the if the blue wave does not wash away drown power,

maybe maybe how much change can we expect? Well, I mean, I think the thing is where we can expect changes on the you know, things that are likely to impact tax equity market, Yeah, corporate tax potential regulation, you know, depending on who he picks is his VP or whoever is in his administration. Break up of the tech stocks maybe, you know, that's been that was talked about by some of the candidates, you know, for the for the Democratic nomination.

So you know, these are things that are are significant and at some point one would think that has to start factoring into the market. All right, well, you know we have to factor in Sarah factor into the podcast factored in Crazy Things. Charlie Pellett will tell us stand clearer of the craziest things we sign markets this week. All right, Lee, I hope they warned you about our gimmick. Here the craziest thing you've seen lately in markets. I got a feeling you've got a good one for us,

so let's let's start with you. Well, I was told it was it was the craziest thing you've seen this week, and it wasn't a major move, but I found it amusing.

And that was Yes, that was when Jerome Palm was speaking at his press conference following the FED meeting, and he was asked about the shortage of coins in the system, and he talked about the shortage of coins and what the FED was going to do about it, and suddenly the dollar rallied gold sold off because while he was speaking, the dollar was declining, gold was was within touching distance of its all time highs again up near two thousand dollars,

and he started talking about coins, and certainly the dollar rallied and gold sold off. And I think somebody thought he was talking about a a lack of dollar liquidity like we had in March. So people thought he was talking about this lack of dollar liquidity that suddenly there was a shortage of dollars. So somebody came in, or a number of people came in the bought a load of dollars and sold gold and actually was talking about acorns. He was talking about quarters and dimes and nickels. And

we're all sitting again, why is the dollar suddenly sold off? What? What? What caused that? And I said he was talking about a dollar shortage. No, he was talking about shortage of quarters and nickels, and so that to me was was crazy. It shows that times were in and how nervous the market is, how far these moves have gone. But it was, Yeah, that was the craziest thing I've seen for a while in market. And I told you, I told you you'd have a good one. Pretty good. When Mike has a

feeling crazy, hunches always come true, just like Molder. So I still want to look that up I haven't have to go on and after this uh x files. Careful Google in that though. That's a dangerous Google search term right there. I'll send you some, Sarah. The truth is out back, Okay, I'll find it whatever whatever, whatever that means. All right, Sarah, I have a you know, I have another hunch, Sarah, I think you and I might have the same one, the same one. So I'll let me.

I'll let you start, okay, star Lukay, all right, Okay, So this is just a crazy one all around. Um So, Mike and I'm both talking about Kodak. Of course, the one thirty one year old company that filed for bankruptcy in used to be known uh for photography or in the photography space. Then briefly I had a stint in the crypto space, and all of a sudden it is

moving into pharmaceuticals. Um So. The company received a government loan essentially to help may generic drugs to help treat the coronavirus, one of them being hydroxychloro quinn and shares of Kodak just when absolutely insane. This week, at one point, up more than two thousand seven, we saw droves of robin hood traders piling into the stock about eighty thousand and twenty four hour period. But there's another part to the story that is also crazy. And I don't know

if Mike, you are also going to hop on this one. Oh, I don't know. Why don't you hop on it first? And then I will? Alright. So a lot of people thought that something fishy was going on in the stock because if if you look at trading volume that happened on Monday announcement, right, So the announcement wasn't made until the next day, and typically like the day before Monday or the trading session before on Friday, you saw seventy

five thousand shares of Kodak trade. However, on Monday, all of a sudden, you saw one point six five mi ly in shares change hands. So there's tons of people out there saying, what's going on. It looks like insider trading. Something's really fishy. Turns out, what happened on Monday was that Kodak had given UH some local news outlets UH previous announcement on what was happening on this announcement. However, they didn't tell them that it was embargoed. It wasn't embargoed.

So a very few number of local news stations actually published the news on this announcement, and then Codex said, wait a second, that's not supposed to be public yet, so they made them delete the news and pull down some tweets that had been put out previously. Um So, the idea is that some people had caught wind that this was going on, traded on the news on Monday ahead of the official announcement, but then all of a sudden,

a lot of it was taken down. Um So, no one had a clue what had happened, why trading volume had spiked so much on Monday, and then we just sat continue throughout the remarkable. My favorite stat of it is, so the loan was for a hundred or what seven hundred and sixty five million, and the companies added something like one point four billion in market cap. Is less than a hundred million market cap company at the end of next week, So do that ratio a two to

one loan to market cap ratio. Um and good luck to all you robin Hood traders out there for for for buying this one. And remember Kodak also pivoted the blockchain a couple a couple of years ago and that didn't quite work out. But uh, I don't know, what do you think LEAs now they're think I got to give it to Lee though that the coins. I think I gotta tip my hat to leave with the coins at the at the FED press conference. That's good, it

was too obvious. Congratulations, lead distinct Door. You can put this on your resume. I will well. As Mike hinted at in the beginning of the podcast, we did get a call into our podcast hotline and it's also about coins in a way, but digital coin. Um. So this is from Morgan Hill from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. So why don't we go ahead and hear what he had to say. Hello, my name is Morgan Hill. I'm an analyst in Fort Lauderdale.

And my question actually is just in regards to the recent weakening in the US dollar as of late and correspondingly and increase or in performance at least in crypto relative to the euro. Uh and uh, you know, modestly in the dollar as well. If there is a blue sweep, are there any considerations regarding a spike in the price appreciation of crypto relative to other currencies and how that's being Christon, I would love you know your feedback. Thank

you so much and I enjoy the show. So basically what Morgan is asking, he says that if there is a blue sweep, are there any considerations regarding a spike in price appreciation of crypto relative to other currencies, and how that's being priceton. Now, Mike, you have an answer to this. I do certain most certainly do not not an answer that will be acceptable Tony crypto enthusiasts out there, So, uh, if you have an answer to this question, give us a call on the hotline at six four six three

two four three four nine. Oh, Lee, I don't know how how closely you follow crypto. Do you see any bullish case for crypto in the event of a blue sweep? I mean, I guess in theory you could think of, uh, weaker dollar, bigger deficits, that that type of thing. I mean, maybe that's what he's getting at. Yeah, I mean I think you know, I've been asked this question, you know, given the view on gold, I've been asked about bitcoin,

um crypto. Yeah, you know, in the same way as gold is a a hard asset, then you can make the case that crypto is as well, because it's you know, it's a it's an asset priced against the dollar, and therefore, if there's a depreciation the dollar, you would expect something, you know, crypto to go up against the dollar. So yeah, a lot of people are putting it in the sort of gold category, and I can see the argument for that.

You know, it's got to be the most volatile safe haven in the world, though I have to say so, I'm not sure I'm I'm buying into it personally. Well I know I'm not buying into it personally, but I can see the argument putting it alongside gold. But the volatility makes it a really, really tough sell. Is a safe haven for me. My favorite remarks along those lines where someone tweeted one time that we the dollar sure is volatile against bitcoin, isn't it. That's that's the right direction, right.

So all right, Well, hopefully we got some other calls with opinions on that, because I'm sorry, we need to outsource some of our crypto content to to the listeners because I I am the furthest thing from an authority on on that space, and I would never pretend to be one either. But with but said, such a great time having we Farriage on the show today. Thank you so much for joining us, Lee my pleasure. Thank you for having me What Goes Up. We'll be back next week.

Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and app, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took the time to rate interview the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us. And you can find us on Twitter, follow me at at Sarah Pontzech, Mike is that Reaganonymous, and you can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts. Also, thank you to Charlie Pellett of Bloomberg Radio and the voice of the New York City Subway system. What Goes Up as produced

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