Death of the Buyback?

is a little bit skeptical. Not only does he not believe in the risk rally, but he says the stock market is forever changed, with buybacks no longer the fourth they once were. Well, Sarah, one force that will continue to remain is our tradition the craziest thing I saw

in markets this week. We will of course finish out the show with that segment, and as always, you see something crazy and markets, give us a call on the podcast hotline at six ft six three to four three four nine oh and leave us a voicemail maybe we'll play it on the show. And you can also tweet to us at Podcasts with the craziest things you saw in the markets this week? I'm gonna go ahead and throw it out there, Mike, my my crazy thing this week.

It comes with a potential request from callers. Uh, so we're going to try to get you to keep them rolling in a special request from callers, special because I need help with it, all right. Somehow I feel like I'm gonna be the butt of this joke, but I will not. I'll hear you and Sarah, as you said, our guests this week, Uh, it's a little bit skeptical about this rebound in stocks, and to be quite honest, so so am I. So that's why I'm glad to have him on the show. I'm not above a little

bit of confirmation bias. You know, I'm not too proud for that. We all know that by this point. But he's uh reading his notes this week, really insightful, mart stuff, but not only that, hilarious, often hilarious at times. So very happy to have him on the show. His name is Vincent de Luard. He's the director of Global macro Strategy at the brokerage I N T l F C. Stone. Vincent, welcome to the show. Well, thanks for having me. It's

a pleasure and I'm a big fan of yours. So, uh, that's one of you guys out there anyway, that's your confirmation bias right off the top of the show. That's right, that's right, that's right, we got one. So uh, you know, if it's it, As as Sarah Um alluded to in the introduction, you are a little skeptical about this rally, walk us through sort of, Um, the main reasons why.

I mean, obviously, the bear case frequities right now is pretty obvious, right, But you know, there's the school of thought that you know, you have to sort of believe in the price action and the power of the price action itself. And I think it's it's turning a lot of people into believers in this rally, the fact that, um, it has moved so much off the bottom in a fairly consistent straight line. I mean, there's been some big down days in this rebound, but you know, the volatility

has calmed down to some degree. Um, walk us through what you're expecting in the near term. Well, it's usually the best way to look like a fool, but I'm gonna do it anyway. That's what we specialized on. Good good in general. You you know, it's very rare to see such a clear V shaped rebound. I guess you can point back to do somebody two thousand and eighteen.

But that's the and maybe that's why it was. There was such an an angst amongst especially retail investors, to to to get back in right, because people, oh, this is the first pullback we had in the last one was so short. You know, it was on Christmas Day. You couldn't do anything. So actually, I think you're Sarah who wrote a piece on this kind of increasing in retail trading, and we findsight right, it was pretty obvious, right,

you you lock everybody down, you send them checks. I mean, most people are actually making more money today, even the ones who lost their jobs because in the endempartment benefits have been increased to clost a thousand dollar a week um plus the one thousand dollar a month similar check. Nothing to do. Casinos are closed. Stock marketing its biggest pullback ever. You had all the retail broker runing, our commissioned three trading, so it's kind of a perfect storm.

And that again, it would be preposterous for me to you know, get the walls. We know don't don't trade stock at the time to say is one of the shoeshine and gives you a stop tip. Well, you know, obviously the right now, these retail people are up double digit and I look like an idiot sitting on cash.

But I think a lot of professional investors are are equally confused by this and are still expecting another wave of of the clients retesting the role, if not taking them bull to be my expectation, Vincent, I love this line that you have in one of your recent reports. You say April's face ripping rally has created a tremendous amount of introspection, self doubt and second guessing among bears. What did I miss that every other investor has seen?

How can market action be so disconnected from reality? Does the rest of the world experience a radically different reality from mine? Is the world crazy? Or is it me? And I think to a sense, there are a lot of people, many many people thinking along those lines. And you talked about the retail trading aspect, and I think it's so interesting because there is this subscription, this idea that usually at the lows and a steep sell off, you see retail flee the market because they're so scared.

At that point in time, but if you look at the data, I mean, it looks like retail time this just right, there was a boom in accounts opening in March, people getting in trading, this idea that yeah, maybe they're equating it to gambling they have nothing else to do.

But it kind of makes me think, then if we do start to see economies start to reopen and we start to see your average your average Joe going back to work, if that is the person who is trading or at least a decent amount of the demand in this market, when that happens, there's is there the possibility that we see a fall off in demand because they

don't have that time to sit at home anymore. Well, I mean that would be kind of the you know, sell the opening view right where you know your rally during the lockdowns and then the actual big downdraft will happen when economy because I tend to be on that view, partly because I think the I don't want to get into the medical aspect, but it seems to me that whatever will happen next is going to be very different

from from before. When we're still living in this illusion that Okay, well, you know, if we all wear a mask and stay at home and do it for long enough, everything we'll be back to normal. And people have not readjusted to that. But going back to your point on supply and demand, which I thought was interesting, and buy backs especially, I mean that was one of the reasons why I was barished before COVID nineteen UM, was that

we were seeing buy back slowing down dramatically. Even in January before COVID hit, the US buy back announcement went down by six to se Now, obviously, I mean COVID is going to flow a ranch on this. Um. You know, buy backs have been the single larger source of equity demand for the stock market for five years now. Uh. You know, we're looking at close to nine billion a year last year. Uh. And if I look at all the other segments possible buyers of stock, you know what

the's pension from structural selling for demographic reason. Banks, it's regulatory broken years. You want to, you know, reduce your inventories. Even foreigners used to be by net bias, but since we had the kind of collapse in all prices, obviously stuffering while fronts are a lot more likely to be sellers of uss s and there are to be buias. So that really leaves you a huge gap. And I think you're absolutely right that retail investors feel that gap

in April. But as you point out, these flows are traditionally fickle, especially if it is you know, if you think of someone who's opening account just a month ago, I mean, what happens is the stock market drop by ten percent, or what happens is that person goes back to work. As you point out, like I don't think

we investage sustainable replacement for the buyback bid. I picture all these new retail traders as the people who were on draft Kings and Fandel a couple of months ago, and now that sports has shut down, they have nothing else to do, and once there's something to gamble on, uh, they'll be They'll be right back on Fandel maybe uh perhaps and oversimplification there, but you know, VI's it. The other the flip side of that coin is okay, it

looks like retail got bullish about buying this dip. When you look at sort of the professional end of things, Um, there is a lot of barishness in the positioning. You know, if you look at the cftc UH positioning data, a huge short still exists on SMP five futures. Um, is it kind of sort of both forces acting at once. Possibly like that the market moving against this massive hedge fund short on the index futures and a little bit of retail omp behind it as well. Is that possible? Yeah?

I was thinking so. And that's that's also always seeing with our clients. UM. I mean, you could see you had some market this location in March. Um, you know, when we had these big down days when both the treasury market and the stock market was setting off. You had big discounts on several ets. So there was some math and spike of on voting. There was some aspect that made it look like a bottom, and I think we saw a little bit of that institutional pick comeback then.

But I would say like since mid April, really, I think is when when most people thought, oh they's gone kind of like you know, you go to the first retracement. I mean, I'm not a technical realist, but the notion that you know, you retraced about six percent of your losses and then you know you there's another down like

that hasn't happened. Another thing that worries me since mid April is kind of the divergence between high yeal spreads and stocks um So pretty much since the being of the crisis, you had, at least basically the stock market was taking excuse the trunk market, uh which way, which I've always spreads, he spreads wide done stock strock, he spreads, shrank stocks rules, and then that relation broke down since mid April, where we have seen spreads at least stay

the same, if not wide a little bit, and the stock market just keep going up. So of course a big component of the rally is also stimulus, both from the government and then also from the FED. And bear with me because I've heard this floated recently. Uh, maybe a majority of people will think it it's a bit crazy, But in a way, we have seen investors trying to front run the feds purchases of credit by buying credit ets.

You've seen massive flows into some of those funds. What about the idea, and call me crazy, but what about the idea that maybe you have some investors out there thinking that we will get to the point where the Fed's going to have to come out and say that they're buying equities in some form of another, and they're trying to front run that as well. No, no, no, I I don't think that's crazy at all. I'm am

in that camp. I think this is how this ends this and again because of that supply and demand factor, right you have, I mean I will there will be some buybacks less right, maybe like Microsoft or the companies will buy backs, but buying large buybacks as the main marginal bios stock is a story of the two thousand tents um and that will leave a permanent five billion plus gap in the equity supply and demand picture. And I think that's, by the way, something that you see

across every de block market, and it's demography. At the end of the day, as society's age, people need to sell stock to bi bones and eventually they need to sell bonds to go into cash. That's what That's why the stock markets have gone nowhere in Japan, in Europe, the US really has been the exception, and I think it has been the exception because the US as such an unusual amount of buyback activity, so as you remove that, you will need to fit it. Like I said, I

don't think the retail did. This is a cute story, it's wonderful. I'm black people are making money. But I don't think it's a it's's sustainable, so something that I only see one possible actor, and that's the FED. But and I mean, you know you've seen the Bank of Japan do it before. It's certainly been floated before. I think it was Bernanki and Ye and actually suggested buying buying mets at some point. So I'm sure it's there, but it's there, I think at a lower price point.

I mean, it nothing surprised me anymore, but it would surprise me if at ten percent, you know, the all time high, the FED say okay, you know what I've gotta do, buy stocks. Yeah, at that point about the retail uh commission free trading, you know, it's it's commission free to buy, it's commisition free to sell as well. So I do wonder if that is ultimately a source of more of altility. Um So, Sarah, I, I didn't think that was a crazy question. It was borderline. It

was borderline, all right. I'll take borderline. Borderline porderline is a success. It's victory in my book. But Vicent seems to specialize in crazy things, which is a good guest for us. So I'm gonna read one of the titles of a recent report from you, Vincent, A crazy but logical call for stag inflation. Um, this one's really interesting to me. And you talk about sort of this. You know, we've we've hear a lot about the wealth divide in

the US. You also talk about the generational divide. How the younger generation um, us younger generation, right, Sarah, all us young people wink wink um are obviously being forced to shoulder the burden of the sacrifice in this situation. You know, Um, younger people obviously are much lower risk

uh to death from the virus. There at a sort of more i don't know, precarious point in their careers where maybe perhaps more vulnerable to layoff or in the type of service job that is more vulnerable to layoff in this environment. So that's it's just just walk us through this crazy but logical call for stagflation. How do you see the potential first stagflation as we get through

sort of the reopening and what comes next? Right? Well, I mean, first start with the generational aspect, because I think it is the ultimate driver for the call for for staculation. So, yeah, as you pointed, out. You know, before going into COVID, we have this all debate about inequality and it's almost hilarious. You see, all these billionaires

are doubles, you know, like talking about inequalities. Uh. And you know all these field of studies like oh, the gender pay gap and the race and these are all true. I'm not I'm not not making a case. But by and large, the single best predictive of how wealthy you are, it's how old you are, and and you could be you could say, well less normal. It takes time to

build wealth, but not across time. We've seen the relative position of the it's sixty press cohort versus the and the third cohort has it's been going in opposite directions, partly because of programs which just as medicare, such as Social Security, which that are effective transfer from one generation to the other. And also I think the from downtall reason for it is the rising asset prices relative to wages. But at the end of the day, when you're young,

you don't have assets. Your your asset is the human capital. If wages don't go up, well that asset doesn't go up. Conversely, when asset prices go up and you're an old person, usually your own assets so you can buy more work, more labor with your capital. I mean, one stantard I love is that the you had to work for four days and the federal minimum wage to buy one sharing is and five two days around two months. That is yeah,

that's on the basic star, right. So we had that building in right, and you could see it in the okay boomer memes, right, I mean there was this this feeling and it was poorly expressed because our generation is not very self aware, and you know, but that, okay, something we're wrong, like always boomers with the Social Security and just to work harder, like than eating, pay for college, stop extra like that ang among the millennial gen z

was building up. And then on top of that you add in the COVID crisis, and the COVID crisis is it's I mean, it's been designed by a demographer or an economist. I mean basically, the disease sematically kills the old, spares the young, and then the cure hurts the young to save the old. So we've asked for another one of these transfers, like please, young generation, screw up the economy, don't go to work, try to juggle raising kids that I'm not at school with zoom meetings. Think about the

people who are driving the Amazon trucks. The nerves is so that the old people can be safe. And maybe it was the ethical thing to do, I certainly believe. I mean, if I think of my parents, obviously I

would have done that. But it's a transfer. It's a transfer on top of a situation that was very unequal, and I think as we as we reopened, will have to address that concern and many of the things that the younger genda, if you will, UH, the ideas like medicare full beause, like universal basic income, student land force, student let known forgiveness. All these things will have to be on the table and that will be the drive

for kind of infacionary bodies for the next decade. You know, we've talked on the show about how this event could be sort of a tipping point for so many different aspects of the world in the economy, I wonder if this is one of them. If the sort of policy on the other end of this UH starts paying attention to those younger voters a little bit more, maybe we get some sort of student loan forgiveness something, some kind of bailout for the millennials my generation generation next, we're

we're screwed, no matter what. I mean, we're just yeah, we're just you know, Vincent, Vincent, just going along with you, just yes, absolutely absolutely. But I consider myself an honorary millennial, So maybe maybe somehow I'll get it on the gravy train.

But does do you think that's right? I mean, could this sort of shift the whole dialogue a little bit left on the political spectrum to a sort of kinder and gentler policies towards especially the younger generation that, as you point out, um, have struggled to gather wealth, uh and and influence in this economy. Um. You know, people that graduated in the global financial crisis, maybe just at the point where you know, they have the down payment for a house and now all of a sudden they're

hit with this um. You know, is that is that a tipping point? Do you think? Yeah? I think so. And and by the way, it's hard to see it now because it's Katy, the boomer class is still very much in control. I mean, just look at you know, Joe Biden versus Trump or Nancy Broozian trum. But anytime I see these people on on TV, I keep thinking about the amount of a physical decay. They are the very embodiment of that. And and you know the the quarter part Haming way, how do you go bankrupt? You know,

first slowly and then all at once. As far as the boomer generation, you can certainly see with with someone like like Pelosi or or tro Biden, like the decade is not happening all at once. And if you look at Congress, I mean, how many of the these people are going to be alive in five years? I mean the death ray. Really, you know, for for a long time it's nothing, and then you get to a seventy five boom and you know, by age ninety, everybody's dead.

So we are getting into that boomer generation is getting into into that that high death zone, which would be consistent with the steeping point idea. As far as like inflation, I think at the end of the day, it is the most convenient way to address this problem. What do we need in order to fix this? Where we need lower serprices so that young people can buy a house and start making babies, uh, and then we need higher

wages uh. And then we need inflation so that the debt gets I mean, because yeah, there are also equid issues like if we can so also a little dead, Well what about the people who paid back on this food to meets a lot easier to have like ten years of infacion at seven percent By the end, everybody is paid off. But we haven't done any of the hard things. And that's that's the most politically satisfying way

to solve the crisis. So, say we were to get to that point and we do see a big pickup in an inflation to deal with what we're seeing, Now, what does that mean for portfolios? Then? I mean, how do you even think about going about investing at that point in time? Get the heck out of bonds? I guess for one thing? Yeah, not now, but yeah, yeah, I think so. Um, I think, well, first of all, it's helpful because the hardest position of being a bear for the past two years, which is my case, is

being well what do you do your money? And I go, you think stocks are expensive, you're gonna buy bombs? Okay, Well nothing cheap, right? Well no, actually, there's one thing

that's cheap, and that's infacion sensitive. That'st so in facier in general, I mean you can buy you can actually get paid to get into infasition swap meaning like you know, every like if you look at Europe or Jepan, the market sproceing inflation, even the US break even where negative I think all the way to five years now it's gone back to two. So it is truly I think the only asset that is fromamentally cheap um. So that's

that's what I would be looking at now. It's probably not an immediate thing because right now, you know, you cannot have inflation if people cannot buy anything. Like the CPI at this point is the consumer basket is a is a unicorn, It's a fictional creature. I mean you come by right. So I think it will hit more towards maybe the end of the year than today, but

you will have like a secular opportunity. I mean, if you think of things like like Brazilian stocks, like materials, like energy, like these are the sectors where you could see like a hundred percent game month after month after month. Alright, So so maybe not today, but at the end of the year, once we see how this crisis does evolve. But like I've got to say. I think we've said the word crazy in this podcast more than we have said in any other episode to date, which I think

is also a victory on our part. But we're going to say it a few times more. Right, Absolutely, absolutely, that's they worry about our gimmickure, the craziest thing we saw on markets this weet. Yeah, I've listened to you before, right, I know your tricks. You know, you know all the tricks. All right, we'll start with you. We'll give you the honor of being the craziest. I also know that you will not be as good as as you or sorrow, so we'll see about that. I have right hopes for you.

It's got to come in with the right expectations. That's no. So I just I'm gonna go with Paton, And there are many ways you can you can go at it, right, I mean, you can go that. It's crazy that he's gone up so much. It's crazy that they have so much revenue. It's crazy that despite having so much revenue and setting bikes for two thousand dollar pub they still lose money, which is like blowing my mind. But the angle I want to take is on their latest earning school.

They mentioned that half of their new subscribers this quarter where people with earning it as than a hundred thousand dollars. So these are effectively the people who are getting the checks from the government. Uh. And if you add two of these checks, I thinks one thousand, two hundred, you just have the right amount to buy a Pelaton bike.

So your couple and and so what that means from a macroeconomic perspective is that the federal government in the I R S has effectively financed the purchase of Peloton bikes across America. And it gives us a whole new perspective on on what the depression means. I do think we're going through the depression, but we'll be biking our way through this depression. So really, what these stimulus checks are being used for is to gamble one in the

stock market and to to buy Peloton bikes. That's the It's like the troubled Asset relief program back in the financial crisis. Pelton was the troubled asset there and they've failed amount. I like it. I like that one. I think you're onto something there. It is, You're right. It's roughly the the purchase price of a peloton in a for a couple. That's that. I think, I think you're out of something there. Let's we'll save Sara's for less because she hyped it up a little bit. Um, so

I'll give you mine. Uh. You know. This weekend was the Berkshire Hathaway Annual Shareholder Meeting. Obviously a huge event every year for the Buffetologists out there who want to sort of hear what Warren's thinking about the state of not just his company obviously, but just the state of the economy and the markets and point. It was a

surreal one this year. I don't know if you guys watched it at all, but he set up, um, you know, it was your typical sort of zoom virtual meeting, but instead of being in his basement, he was actually in the Omaha arena that they always do the meeting. But it was completely empty and it was Buffett and another

executive on this stage. It was really weird, and he he sort of went into this long monologue about the Great Depression, which, um, not really what you want to hear from Buffett, uh, when you're wondering where the economy is going. But the crazy part, Sarah is when they started taking calls from shareholders. Uh. One of the shareholders was none other than the actor Bill Murray, who I

get apparently owns a few shares in Berkshire. And I find it ironic because so many people have talked about this lockdown being sort of like roundhog Day, the same thing over and over again. So here's here's Bill Murray, and I'll just read you his his question for Warren Buffett, courtesy of The New York Post reporting on it. He said, the pandemic will graduate a new class of war veterans, healthcare, food supply deliveries, community services, so many, oh so much,

too so few. How might this great country take our turn and care for them all? And Buffet was pretty honest about he said, we won't be able to pay. Actually, it's like the people that landed at Normandy. They're contributing a whole lot more than some of the people that came out of the right room womb or got lucky in things or know how to arbitrage bonds or whatever it may be. In a large part, I'm one of

those guys. So pretty honest, uh answer from Buffett. But so it kind of gets to the whole point about this generational and wealth inequality divide. I mean it, um, it's amazing to think, uh, you know, how things could

potentially be changed for the better. At the other end of this, I guess is is if you're looking for sort of the silver lining in this cloud, maybe that's it, right And no, I had had funny I watched that thing, and as I was watching this really dull bob current in this empty room, I had a it looks like

a eulogy for an American era that was gone. You know, there was something very very depressing, especially comparing to what all the some mates when he is like the folks, the tradition, and you know, by I buy America today, like yes, yes, all these folksy stuff that Buffett does it, It just it was not there. And I thought the exact same thing now. I as far as the civil lining, I I think we don't see it now, but you know, now we see the decay of of what what's past.

We don't see what's birthing, what's being born again, but it usually is. I mean the quote you know it's always darkest before the dawn, like it is in moment of national crisis that you actually, uh you know, fixed thing and and reshuffle the social order in a new way. You know, it's at that that that for the Great Depression that you've got the new deal and eventually social security or if I think about France, the you know, the social program of the resistance, Like France was occupied

by Germany. It was a complete disaster and they're nighting for we two these people go to go around the table and set up the stage for you know, what would be the the prosperity of thirty years of of of recovery after that. So I think eventually that will come. And that's something I meant to say about the generational warfare stuff. I mean, it's fun to do, like okay, boomer gency, millennial whatever, but at the end of the day, and I think that's that's the reason why it gets solved.

It's it's some versus father's daughters versus mothers. I mean, there is there are the bonds of love and and and mutual need that ensures that these conflicts eventually get solved. And I believe this is a story that has been repeated through history, and eventually every generation finds a way to fix the system. All right, Sarah, you hyped it up. What do you have for us? Well, well, first, you guys made me think of one that I actually didn't bring,

so I'll keep that second. But one is speaking of the generational divide and Warren Buffett, something that was really a little bit crazy this past week. I mean, Warren Buffett talks at length about how he sold all his airline shares. Then all of a sudden this week, if you look, there's an e t F that tracks airlines booms and popularity on robin Hood there's massive flows uh

into the fund. A colleague on my team, they obviously didn't end up running it, but they were floating a joke headline saying millennials think they're smarter than Warren Buffett because Warren Buffetts had cell airlines, and all of a sudden, you've got all your robin Hood traders flying over to this jet CTF. I would have ran. I would have ran that headline. Yeah, I wish we could have. You

guys got to stop with putting millennial run this. It gets red, okay, But my actual thing that I came with, and it wasn't so much hyping it up. I truly just want input from listeners on how they think this is pronounced. Obviously, there's been a lot going on with Elon Musk lately and miss Tesla. But his son was born this past week and I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to pronounce his son's name. It's X the symbol with the A and the combined

A dash twelve Musk. So if anyone listening thinks that they know how to correctly pronounce the name, I would love for you to call in and pronounce it for us, that we have a better act Like there wasn't there a tweet that explained the meaning of There was no ordeal on that. The mother she yeah, she tweeted out the meaning of of the name. Um, she tried to explain it. She did so, so he shows up. He's like, Hi, I'm Ellen. This is my wife Crimes, her girlfriend Grimes,

and and my son A what is it? A seven? A twelve and my son are two D two? Um, I don't know. I'm just so curious how people think it's pronounced. One call that hotline. I don't have the number, handy, but uh I do. For my point on on growth and hassle, formation and and generation, regardless of how stupid the names that come on in I'm us for having babies. I think at the end of the day, you need more babies to solve all of that, and you know,

of them, whatever you want, just keep making them. Give us your bonus crazy thing. That was pretty good, Ellen, baby is pretty good, But what's your bonus? One? That was my? That was it, And then the buying jets was before you have one more? If you want to

hear it? Sure? Why not? Why not? Carnival the cruise line announced that they will allow, well not, they will allow, but they are now offering a fee, essentially a baseline fee to take a cruise on August first, when they're gonna start sailing again, at twenty eight dollars, which is extremely cheap. But I think now we have negative feeds, funds rates, negative oil prices, I think we might as

well just have negative cruise launching as well. Another subsily to boomer by the way, because who's who's going to enjoy these cruises? You know? I think you'd have to pay me for me to get on a cruise ship right now. And hey, I'm right at the port too. I could drive over there in five minutes. Maybe it's like twenty eight dollars for the cruise uh per night, and then a hundred dollars for every lightsoul wipe you want to buy from the from the ship store. That's

that's how they mark it up. Well that's pretty good. Well, um, you millennials really ruined this podcast. I gotta say, that's that's our goal in life. One more thing, as would say, all the headlines another not in ruined. Ay. I like the millennials. I'm a big fan of the millennials. Well, you said earlier that you kind of want to be a millennial. Millennial a millennial right now it's forty. I mean, he's some million like me getting close to forty, and

they have kids that they bring to school. I mean, it would be great if if news people who write news headlines realize that, you know, what they think of as a millennial is actually, you know, twenty years younger than what they actually are. I don't like the gen Z thing though, because that's it, gen Z, We're done. I mean, we should have thought this through before we started. Name it's it's the next one's alpha or something like that.

You restart. That's maybe that's where Ellen's thinking with his kid's name. Maybe maybe uh. And just as a reminder, you can give us a call at our podcast hot line. It is six or six three two four three zero, So now that you have the number, we should also say, of course, Vincent Delaward, thank you so much for coming on the show today, my pleasure, Thank you so much, What Goes Up. We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, website and

app or wherever you get your podcasts. We love it if he took the time to rate interview the show on Apple Podcast so more listeners can find us. And you can find us on Twitter, follow me at at Sarah pont Sack, Mike is at Reaganonymous. Our guest, Vincent Delawart is at Vincent Delward and you can also follow Bloomberg Podcast at podcasts. What Goes Up as produced by Tobra Foreheads. The head of Bloomberg Podcast is Francesco Levie. Thanks for listening, See you next time. Thank