After the K-Shaped Recovery

a decade. And what does it all mean for markets. We'll get into it with an expert on confidence and the role that confidence plays in decision making. But first, Katie, excited to have you back on the show. Here for all the vill Donna fans out there. She's fine, She's just vacationing in Portugal. So I'm a little jealous, I gotta say, And you know she's I was gonna say. She is so funny because two or three weeks ago she was like complaining about this trip. She was like,

I don't even want to go on it. I don't know if we should. I was like, what are you talking about I picture her in Lisbon like reading all the analysts notes on her phone and missing all the sites. And she was also like, you know. I started salivating when she told me she was going to Portugal there because I thought back, I had a trip there a couple of years ago, and I must be gained ten pounds and I was I was like, filt I had theres o. The seafood is incredible. I had this incredible

steak at this one place. And she's like, yeah, I don't eat fish, were meat of any kind And I was like, well, they have olives. I think maybe you could have some olives. I don't know. You know, she loves cauliflower. I rest assured that she probably found some delicious cauliflower in Portugal. We can only hope, but in any case, I look forward to the day when I left the country. Haven't been I haven't been outside the

borders in a while. It we should probably get to the guest and yeah, yeah, why do you bring him in? I'm very excited about our guests too, and not only because he's a blue hen like me, a professor at the University of Delaware and Don William and marry another fine school, but also because I feel like he covers some angles that we don't get into a lot on this show, and that's sort of behavioral finance and psychology and that sort of thing. And he's I'm also excited.

He's from my neck of the woods, down in Chester County, Pennsylvania, a beautiful corner of the world. So what do you bring him in here? Katie? All right, Well, if you were wondering what this man's name is, it is Peter Atwater. He is the president of Financial Insights, LLC. He's also a finest professor at William and Mary and the University of Delaware. I know I get the blue hen reference. It was a little lost on me, but here we are. But in any case, Peter, welcome to the show. It's

great to have you with us. Thanks, Katie and Mike. Glad to be here. Peter. I wanted to start I just sort of if you could give us an idea of your approach. Like I said, you know, you sort of look a lot at more of the behavior real type of finance, and I think it's a really important time to talk about that, given this last few years have just spent unlike anything we've ever seen before. I think as far as um investors, psychology, and then the whole meme stock Craze walk Us. There's kind of your

approach to to how you think about these things. Sure, so I I look at things in terms of confidence, And when I think of confidence, I don't mean the theater of confidence, the self confidence that so often gets discussed. I'm I'm really talking about the feelings of certainty and control that we have in our lives, because those are

the real factors and the choices we make. When we're confident, we think we know what's coming, and even more so, we think that we're capable of handling whatever that is. And we don't talk about it this way, but the the opposite of confidence is vulnerability, when we feel like things are uncertain and we feel powerless, sort of like we felt and have been feeling a lot for the last two years. And so those feelings of vulnerability play

into a lot of the choices that we make. And so, Peter, I mean, it's it's interesting to hear you, you know, talk so much about confidence because I mean, just recently we got consumer sentiment data that it was just terrible. I mean, if you look at the consumer. They're still spending a lot of money, but it looks like they're miserable about it. And I'm curious how you take inputs such as that, how you think about that in relation to confidence and how that feeds into markets. Yeah, so

I think in a couple of ways. One, I think we need to recognize that there is no single level of confidence, particularly today, and you know, as the person who coined the term the case shaped recovery, to me, there there are two extremes to confidence. Those that are closest to the financial markets have one level that is distinct from those particularly individuals who have worked throughout the

pandemic out in the real world. And so I think what you're seeing is a lot of vulnerability being expressed in the consumer sentiment numbers, and and vulnerability from any number of factors. It could be economic. It could be the fact that they're paying more at the pipe at the pump, inflation food prices. But what is also interesting is where we see in a lot of these sentiment

figures the impact of political vulnerability. And so when you know after the election, you could see where Republican economic confidence fell dramatically while Democrats confidence improved. So I think we need to recognize that these measures are picking up much more than just how we feel about the economy. It's it's really how how vulnerable or confident we feel? More broadly, And can we just talk about how good of a call that was the case shaped recovery? Could

you explain just a little bit about that? As I remember, it's that, you know, the upper tiers, the upper income thresholds of society would recover from the pandemic more quickly. Where is the lower income sectors of you know, society? They would have a harder time doing that. I bet Peter, I bet you wish you could have trademarked to that and gotten some royalties on that, because it was everywhere

there for a while. Yeah, And and to be honest with you, it had nothing to do with economic factors. To me, those were going to follow. But I could immediately see in March when those who worked in the service economy quickly pivoted to working from home, and the boost and confidence that that gave people relative to the doctors and the nurses and the folks who were taking care of the supermarket that didn't have that as a choice.

And so you could see this real stark bifurcation and confidence that I felt that ultimately would play through into the economy, which is sort of what's happened. Where do you suppose we are now in that recovery? I mean, have had the has the upstroke and the downstroke of that k gotten close together, they're getting further apart. Do you think, what what's sort of the status of it? So I actually took the view that the real popularity

of that term marked the extreme of it um. You know, as somebody who watches narratives for a living, I've learned that that correlations break down the moment everybody's talking about them, and I felt that this was just another one. And and in many ways we're starting to see that. You're seeing those at the bottom becoming much more strident about

you know, getting wage gains and pressing to unionize. You know, you're seeing a lot of activity where folks, you know, in the in the lower economics sphere, are are doing things to address the vulnerability that they're experiencing. And at the same time, you know, beginning a year ago, you could start to see sentiment decline within the financial markets themselves, and you know, so so I do think that that

the two lines are beginning to to convert urge. The question in my mind is, ultimately, do those at the bottom are they lifted? You are more than those at the top begin to feel vulnerable. Let's talk a little bit more about the financial markets and drill in there. Because you sent us a ton of notes. They were

extremely helpful, so thank you for that. And you send in one of your emails that you know you see a lady or the tiger potential to markets, and I would love to hear exactly what you mean by that. But the setup is this. We we've had a year in which the most abstract, wild and crazy stocks have really suffered, and at the same time we have sentiment,

consumer sentiment that's really lousy. Consumer sentiment is so bad that you go back to October two thousand and eleven and and what do you see While you saw occupy wal Street, you saw riots in London. Um. So, so we know that when sentiment is this low, we behave badly as as people, and not surprising, you're seeing things

like the trucker's strike up in Canada. So so we express our shared vulnerability in a in an active social way, and so part of me says, well, if this is like two thousand and eleven, this is a low, this is a meaningful load that we should bounce from. And that's the lady scenario that the powder puff, as I call it, where where you start people start to feel better, Inflation comes down, the bond market eases, equities rise, um, you could see popularity of Joe Biden begin to improve.

Because presidents are only as good as we feel. So there are a lot of things that in this moment, I feel like they have the makings of a of a major sentiment up. That's challenged a little bit in terms of equity valuations. That valuations are nothing like they did in two thousand eleven, but but okay, I'll live

with that. The downside is the more troubling one to me, which is to say, if this isn't a low and sentiment really deteriorates, well, then you're getting into Lehman Brothers like moments where trust broad trust issues become a disconcerting factor to people. And so I think we need to be cognizant of those two potential scenarios, not wishing for trouble, but I know that as somebody who's focuses on confidence. If confidence really drops further, we're gonna become much more

aggressive about addressing the vulnerability we feel. And Katie, this isn't a political statement, but Joe Biden another Blue Hen, I don't know, if you know that a lot of us out there, well, it seems like a tough time for Blue Hens. Then I don't know, like administration is really worried about inflation. I mean kind of to that point. I mean to think about what could bring confidence lower. I mean, would it be inflation or what else do

you have in mind? So it could be inflation. I tend to think that things like gas prices become a really important test to to consumer sentiment at this point, the same thing with food prices, the things that you you can't control the quantity that you buy. So I I I do think that some of the the the basics could be factors. But you know, don't forget we have in the backdrop to your political risk in Europe.

I tend to look less at the specific triggers then our vulnerability to them, how we're how we would be likely to react. I mean put it this way. You know, if you had said to the crowd that Tom Hanks getting COVID would create a collapse and sentiment. We we'd all laugh. But that just happened to be the tipping point that coalesced the vulnerability that we were feeling. And so I think that's that's the kind of risk that

we face here today. But to me, Peter, it sounds like your base case is more sort of the lady of in the analogy, that that we have kind of reached the bottom in in sentiment and it's bound to perk up, and that you know, a deterioration is more of a maybe not quite a te risk, but but not quite the base cases that that sound right well, I think broadly speaking, as I said, I think consumer sentiment is a low, but I think it's also important like to recognize how bifurcated that is, and so you

could see those at the bottom begin to feel much better at the expense of those at the top. It would be reflect did in higher overall consumer sentiment just based on the numbers and how how extraordinarily concentrated wealth is today, but you could see where confidence would rise and in a situation where the markets are not happy about that because it means that the pendulum has swung

from owners of capital two employees. And in this conversation, I'm curious where you see the fixed income markets factoring in, because if I look at the yield on a ten year treasury right now, I mean, give or take, it's around two per cent, which we haven't seen in a while. You haven't really seen that overall haven bid for treasuries that you know, one might expect to see listening to this conversation. Yeah, and I think that's what's so weird

about the past year. Um. You know, one of the things that I noticed was at the same time, you had meme stocks soaring, but we had negative yielding sovereign debts it and so you would say that's not a combination that I think goes hand in hand. You know. Now those are those who would say, well, free money pumping the market, you know, But but let's get away

from those issues. I think that the broader question is, you know, what does it mean if we've seen bond prices and stock prices peak simultaneously and and there I think that the nineteen seventies are an interesting parallel because you saw the end of a low interest rate environment simultaneous to a peaking in the in the equity market and the consequences of rising bond yields and and rising

stock yields or stock prices or falling stock prices. One of the things that we also saw in that environment, we're concerns about systemic stability, trust in the system, you know, whether it's watergate, so were the changing the dramatic changing of the guard at the FED. You know that the question will be how to investors interpret what this rise in rates signifies. Right now, it's pretty clear we're associating with inflation, but it becomes a very different story if

the signal means something different to the crowd. I'm glad you brought up meme stocks, Peter. I know you've you've thought about them a lot. That whole phenomenon we saw, and I think it's especially interesting from your perspective as a university professor. You know, I I just pictured all your students coming up to you like you know, shot by game stop or Shebau or what it seems to me almost like nothing we've ever seen before, that that mania.

What was it like as a professor? I mean, is it was everyone trading on Robin Hood in the middle of class, and what's kind of the climate there now? Is it all worn off as the fever broke. It seems like it has based on the prices. But yeah, they were trading in class and they were trading, you know, initially the stocks, and they were moving into options. You know, my my head just about exploded when students came up to me and said, professor, I'm not making enough in

call options. What do you think about futures? And it's like, okay, I think we're It's it's pretty clear that everybody is in. Who's who's going to get in? And they were They were unconvincible that they were wrong, which is another behavioral trait that I that I always look for, is the inability to consider the other side. No sentiment is clearly changed,

you know. I think there is still a sub segment of the population that is fixated on the movement in cryptocurrencies and n f t s, But the mania stage is gone. And I think the moment Elon Musk get walked onto the stage of Saturday Night Live, we sort of saw the simultaneous peaking and culture and finance that that marked the top. That was definitely the top of so many things in our society, so many things that

we don't even know yet. But I'm curious to hear a little bit more about your perspective as a professor, because something I wonder about, and I've talked about a little bit with various people, is that, you know, on the on the the tail end of this roller coaster of me Mania, coming down from those highs, you know, a lot of people probably lost a lot of money, probably a lot of people who were completely new to

markets and new to investing. And I mean the hope is that, you know, perhaps I mean the optimistic view is that perhaps they got involved in investing in trading with me Mania, and they graduated onto maybe some more types of wealth building. You know, maybe hopefully they bought some index funds and put some cash there. But then the more pessimistic view was, you know, perhaps a lot of these people were burned and they've become a little

bit disenchanted with the stock market, with investing. I would love to hear your perspective on that, especially someone who you know, probably talks to a lot of people who did get involved during one. Yeah, I think that the novice and naive are always the last of the party, and it's a it's a trend that I it's a pattern I look for, um just in terms of broad measures of sentiment. I worry about the migration that we've seen, particularly among young people, is out of the stock market

and into online gambling. That the gamification that we saw taking place in in online stock trading platforms has moved to an environment that's even more familiar to young people, more resonant with young people. And you know, you just cannot talk to population of young people, particularly young men, without quickly getting swept up into what are you what are you betting on? You know this week? In whatever

the gamer event is. Yeah, that's interesting. There is such an overlap, it seems like, you know, between the the risk taking in in the meme stocks and gambling. It's it's you can see people flipping between the same apps and every day. I would imagine and think back, I mean to the start of it and the whole the whole reason that we were given for why we saw such a flood into robin Hood and other apps is because there weren't any live sports that people are looking

for an outlet. That's true. Yeah, I mean we we've sort of merged Wall Street, Las Vegas, the metaverse, and social media into this phenomenon of betting on everything, and and some of that I think you can attribute to sort of the pandemic nihilism that that we've seen elsewhere. But but it's to me, it's a really troubling intersection because of it what it all of the iconic figures that have now been swept up into it, from sports

figures to Hollywood figures to political figures. We we've monetized celebrity is such an extreme that there's there's a lot more riding on this than just you know, housing prices. We're in two thousand and five. This is this is a big cultural phenomenon that transcends the markets and cuts

across all of American in many ways. I don't think we yet understand, you know, Piterre, One thing I wanted to unpack a little bit you You had a great point in your email to us before the show about how you're watching gold and I just want to read a little bit of your email because I thought it was a good line. He said. Even with the recent rallying commodities, if you have found a reason to buy precious metals. It's the buick in a sea of e vs. Which I took my hat. That's a good line, But

I wonder what's going on there. I mean, obviously crypto has been pitched as sort of digital gold. Um, it's debatable whether it plays the same sort of role as gold would in a portfolio, but I do think a lot of people are subscribing to that idea. Is that is that part of what's going on with gold, do you think? Or is it? Is it something else? Yeah, And just to be clear to listeners, I am not a goldbug. I am not a you know, I'm a

pretty agnostic observer of things. And and what's been so startling to me is that you look at the commodity space, and you know, from from lumber to oil to iron arts and you you name it, those commodity prices have exploded. So this is this is a a product, an investment that has been left out of every every mania we've seen in the last three or four years. And and we can attribute it to its old. It's stodgy, it's the antithesis of cool. And until it reacts, people don't

know what to make of it. And and It's been a fascinating thing to watch because we've had this enormous multi year coil in gold. You know, I don't know if it will resolve up or down, but what I've learned avior release coils are like an enormous tug of war where energy is expanded in vast amounts between the bulls and the bears until one side finally let slots. And so, as I said, I don't know which direction it's going to be, but gold is going to give

us some science as to what is happening. As far as sentiment, Peter, I wanted to quickly also go back to, you know, a point you made that this could be like the nineteen seventies and we might see, you know, stock and bond prices peak at the same time. And I have to admit I wasn't close to alive in the nineteen seventies, so I'd love to hear you know, where was the hiding place? Then what was the haven asset? Then? So the haven asset was gold, behaving asset were real assets,

and I think that's real assets. I think of as a as a counter point to all of the abstraction that we have. So eagerly embraced in this cycle. And and that abstraction is in many ways a mirror of the kinds of abstractions we saw in the in the nineteen sixties. You know, we've got space again, We've got you know, in this case, it's social media, not television, and and you know, the internet, not you know, telephone.

But there's a clear series of behavioral parallels leading up to what's happening now that we saw in the nineteen sixties. And and you know, again not surprising to see the same kinds of social tensions political tensions playing out now because we're we're feeling the same way from a confidence perspective, right, Katie, I'm glad he brought up space. That's a good teaser

for my craziest thing of the week. But we're not there yet, because I do want to I do want to rewind a little bit, Peter and ask you um to elaborate on a little something you just mentioned about sort of this uneasiness that especially the political nature of confidence. You know, you mentioned the Republican confidence sank, Democratic confidence uh went higher after the auction, and that's not you know, I I've looked at the University of Michigan Partisan Confidence Indexes.

It's not any unusual thing for that to happen, but the extent that had happened, I think he's off the charts, like like nothing, nothing we've ever seen. And you know, all of a sudden, you see protesters from the right side of the aisle, you know, January six and the and the truckers protests in Canada. You know, something new that we You know, I've never remember anything like this in my lifetime, you know, I don't. I don't remember anyone hitting the streets after Bill Clinton was elected or

anything like that. But I'm serious. What you think two things? What do you think's driving that? I mean, to me, as from my perspective in the media, it seems like this this really bifurcated media atmosphere we have with you know, right wing news and left wing news and really seems to be you know, getting further and further apart and suckily. I like, how does this resolve itself in markets? Is it is it at play as as a sort of driver of anything in markets, do you think? Or is

it just a sideshow? So a couple of things, you know, the way I think of politics and confidence relates to a broader thought, which is, when I don't have confidence, the only thing I care about is me here now. You know, if I'm vulnerable, if I'm under attack, I don't care about you or anywhere else or any time in the future. On the other hand, when I'm really confident, it's about us. It's about you know, a broad you know, expansive world and will into the future. We can we

can afford to be generous. And so what we've seen is an environment of extraordinary political generosity in the United States, in Europe, you know, the coming together of the Eurozone. You know, Bill Clinton being all but indistinguishable from Georgie W. Bush. I mean, we we had and an environment of us everywhere forever politics, and there's a great Time magazine cover, you know, from a couple of years ago, you know, the center of the place to be, which is hard

to imagine today. And as confidence falls, we naturally come apart, We balkanize, We become about the people that are most familiar to me, that feel the same way that I do. You know, the the is m ng of of the population. And I think that's one of the things that confuses people is we want to be very clear that it's left versus right or up versus down, and and that's not how we skis them. It's never a clean break like that, and we it becomes more of my enemies

my enemy sort of a mindset. And so if I think about politics in its current version, which you know we would think of as left versus right, a more capitalist versus a more socialists market environment, and I think that we could see things play out that way. I'm more interested not left and right, but how to up and down resolve because that's that, to me, is where

the greatest differences in American culture today. You know, there's a lot that potentially could unify and coalesce those at the bottom, that that is underappreciated today, that that would make those at the top feel far more vulnerable. I tend to look at where do we see small groups coming together, because what's likely to happen is you'll see these big goliaths being upended by small, grassroots groups that resonate. We saw that eighteen months ago with the Black Lives

Matter movement. You know, there was no centralized figger, but there was this spontaneous feeling of shared voicelessness and vulnerability that all of a sudden spread across city after city. And I mean, while we're on the subject of politics, I feel like we have to mention the fact that, you know, you do have mid term elections coming up somehow. You know, a lot of predictions are for a divided

Congress coming out of those elections. What do you think that would do to you know, confidence and sentiment and the markets largely. So, I think election outcomes are a reflection of it rather than a contributor to it. So I what what we tend to find is that it's the mood going into the polls that matters, not the mood coming out of the polls. So I tend to think that a lot of what we think of as being causal conditions are really consequences of how we felt

leading up to them. For example, you know, we think of nine eleven is causing American confidence to fall. Well, if you look at the confidence across the Middle East in that moment, it becomes pretty clear that that would be a contributor to terrorist attacks, you know, the the food inflation contributing to the the Arab spring. You know, a couple of years later, so I tend to look at a lot of social behavior as a consequence of the feelings that then just gets reported on a on

a tally board. So if we see confidence rise between now and November, you should expect incumbents and those on the left doing better. If confidence were to fall, then that's an environment where we are where the view out, the incumbents, get rid of the people in office give we vote people out when confidence is low. We don't care who we vote in. It's it's the action of of destruction and elimination that that we become fixated on.

That's that's when we I guess we should get ready for truckers to show up in the Holland Tunnel or something, or you know, in the beltway around d C. Yeah. That, and and social protest is a great indicator of where mood is going well, whether it's you know, the yellow vests in France or the Arab springer, the trucker striking in Canada today. Fascinating stuff, Peter. You know Katie as

the father of our prospective college student. I gotta tell you, normally you have to spend a fortune for insights like this from a from a good professor like this, so we we we appreciate it. The twih and free uh download from Peter this week really interesting. Hopefully a lot of college students are listening to this podcast right now. Yeah, they got a free one. It tiden up your straight jackets. It's time for the craziest things we saw in markets

this week. Before we let them go, we have to uh continue one with our tradition of the craziest things we saw this week. Katie. I always have high hopes for you. I know, you come with something good for the craziest thing you're You're grimacing there a little bit. You might be under prepared this week. I don't know. Bill Doota will let you know. We'll let you hear

about it if you do not deliver. I know, I know, well, I I do feel like I'm flying a little bit by the seat of my pants when it comes to the crazy thing this market. But I'm gonna go straight to a story from Joe wisen Vall. The headline says it all. Hilton has now nearly outperformed Zoom Video since

the pandemic hit. Both of those docks are up about a hundred and forty percent since the depths of March, which I just think is a really neat encapsulation of you know, you know, all of the steam that has come out of some of these pandemic favorites. I mean, you saw that with Shopify and Roadblocks earnings just this week. That signal anything to you, Peter? Are people gaining confidence

that this pandemics the worst is behind us? Well? You know, I for a long time I've been using Carnival Cruise lines as my main street sentiment indicator, and you know that one still leaves me thinking that we're we're still unresolved, that that there is a there's a coil of of tension between you know, can we believe this to be true, that the worst is behind us? Or do we still feel like we have one foot on the banana? Yeah? Interesting? I mean that talk about ground zero of the COVID

in the market. That's it. That's pretty good. Alright, good one to watch. Yeah, I forgot about them. How about you, Peter, you see anything crazy this week? I know that's a silly question. We probably should switch it. Have you seen seen anything rational this week? But what's what's the craziest thing you saw? So so, one of the things that's really caught my attention. And this is the former treasure

in me who's always interested in in mismatches. Is the private equity fascination now with with overnight rental, you know, whether it's buying homes or vacation properties. And we've gone from you know, buying homes to buying homes for for long term rentals, to now short term rentals to now overnight and and I I struggle with that just because

you know, the liquidity difference, the mismatch. If we see any sort of deflation, it just boggles my mind at our our willingness to ignore long term assets that we're pricing overnight. It's basically funding a bank with commercial paper in my books, which you just never do. I forgot about your bank your days. You were bank one, right, bank Lie and JP Morgan a long time before the roll up. Interesting, Well, that's a banker's instinct. Is probably a good way to a good thing to keep in

mind whenever looking at the market. So that's uh, that's a smart way to do it. And I'm gonna give you my craziest thing, as I teased it, it is space related, Katie Um. And this is courtesy of stories both Bloomberg, Forbes, probably some others had it. But apparently among the cryptocurrency millionaires out there, another asset class has become very popular too. So you spend your crypto millions on,

and that is meteorites. So Christie's recently had a meteorite auction several meteorites and meteorite related items, including and this is the craziest one, a doghouse that was hit by a meteorite and the meteorite went right through the roof of it almost killed the German shepherd named Rokey who's sleeping inside. Yeah, as regular listeners will know, it's time to play prices right on what Christie's expects. This meteorite hit doghouse well self ware at auction, and I will

tell you it's nothing to brag about this doghouse. I saw a picture of it. It was basically made out of old shipping palettes and like corrugated sheet metal, but obviously pretty starry doghouse. I mean it survived a meteorite strike. Does it come with an n f T. It's not, it's it's how you hat an n f T. I'm sure we'll be soon. What do you think Christie's expected price sales price, and it's a range, so you can

give me a range. I don't know if this helps, but the actual meteor right that went through the roof of it is only expected to go for sixty. But the doghouse is the real star of the auction. So I'm maybe given away too much information here, Katie. What's your bid on a doghouse with a hole in the roof from a meteorite? Keeping in mind that, uh, and I'll give you a great quote from the Ford story

on it. A personal Christie said, last year a lot of people were cashing out crypto and going into meteorites. So it's a hot asset class right now among the laser rides set out there. Okay, so I mean I have to knock a couple hundred thousand off because it's it's a physical object and it's not in en f T that's true n f T four and would probably double or triple it for sure, Yeah, exactly, Okay, Okay, so it's the range. I'm gonna say eight hundred thousand

to a million dollars, all right, I'm keeping my poker face. Peter, what's your what's your bid on this doghouse. Prices right, rules are in effect, so take that for what it's worth. So I'm gonna go five hundred to seven fifty. I'm gonna I'm gonna go the low end. You know, today, anything's possible. I will say Christie's would love to have both of you in the audience of this auction. They're

estimating two hundred to three hundred thousand. I could see it going for more, though, I think we'll have to check back on this. I think when you guys could be could be in the right, that's value stock. You should be able to get much more for that. But the problem is you you let your dogs sleep in there, and it's got a hole in the roof. He's gonna get rained on. So I don't know. It's uh. But with that said, that is the craziest thing I saw this week, and I think that's all we have time for.

But Peter, great to catch up with you. Fascinating conversation and I hope we can have you back someday. And Katie, you know, I'll always be coming to when Bilbonna is off galvanning around the world whenever she wants to go to Portugal, I'm right here eating cauliflower on all the world's Thanks Black, Thanks Katie, thanks so much, guys, Thanks peer, What Goes Up. We'll be back next week AND's so then you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website

and app or wherever you get your podcast. We love it if you took the time to rate and review the show on Apple podcast so more listeners can find us. And you can find us on Twitter follow me at Reaganonymous. Katie Greifeld is at k Greifeld. You can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts and thank you to Charlie Pellet to Bloomberg Radio. What Goes Up is produced by Laura Carlson. The head of Bloomberg Podcasts is Francesco Leavie. Thanks for listening, See you next time.