A Top 1% Manager’s Strategy

been declared. There's questions over the Senate too. But even so, stocks stage their best post election rally and history and text talks are back on top. So what's the deal, Mike, Well, Sarah, I don't know, but I will tell you. What the deal is with the end of the show is that we will finish off with the craziest things we saw

in markets, of course, and uh. The deal is for listeners out there, if you saw something crazy, please give us a call on the Bloomberg Podcast hotline and leave us a voicemail and maybe we'll play your crazy thing on the show. Number is six four six three to four three four nine zero. Uh and sorry, Sarah. Very excited for this week's guests. As you know, I usually I'm excited regardless who the guest is, but especially excited this week first time on the show. He is a

portfolio manager at Buffalo Funds. His name is Jamie Quare. Jamie, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on. And Sarah, that firm name again is Buffalo Funds. You know, Buffalo Funds are like regular funds, just with hot sauce on top. Of course, you know Buffalo That was in my favorite slace night. I heard our other guests grown at that joke, I think, which is not a good sign. Uh. And that voice that is our very own Chris Nag, executive

editor at Bloomberg for Markets. Chris hasn't been on this show in a while, but he's got his own fan club out there who demands his appearance occasionally. So obviously very powerful fan club. They've managed to keep me keep me off the show for about nine months. If we weren't living through a pandemic right now, we weren't doing the podcast through Zoom, and we were still in the office, you know, you would be on more often. Yeah, I'm Sarah's boss, I would point out at this point. But anyway,

your evaluation period is coming up. So we're having we'll have Chris on for every episode for the rest of you. But but Jai, of course I was joking about the hot sauce, but not a joke about how hot that that small cap fund has been doing really impressive. I want to get into your specific strategy because it's obviously you're doing something right. But before that, I want to talk a little bit about just small caps as an

asset class um. You know, obviously, if you're you're looking at just the Russell two thousand, uh, still down on the year last time I checked, really been underperforming the SMP with all the mega caps for a few years. Now, what is sort of your outlook for not your fund and your specific stock picks in the fund, but just

the small caps as an asset class in general. I think there's this kind of notion that maybe a need sort of a big fiscal stimulus, uh some kind of blue way from the election that that looks like it's not going to happen. But what's been holding small caps back compared to the mega caps in the SMP, And is there any reason to believe that the whole asset class can can sort of turn around and sort of

close up that performance gap. Yeah, I don't know if that's totally fair, and i'd separate a little bit the kind of the growth versus value performance that we've seen within small caps. So certainly the value names have been dramatically underperforming growth this year, but growth in small cap has done quite well. If anything, I think that's probably going to continue to to go in terms of being

a in favor of growth going forward. So, you know, things probably would have been a little bit better for small caps over the last couple of days if um, you know, there had been a massive stimulus, which looks like obviously it's not going to come through with with kind of a split Congress. But overall, um, everything continues to be quite solid and the outlook is still very

strong for small caps. Earnings have gone quite well. Um. You know, we still have the same I think concerns that everyone else does in terms of kind of what's going to happen with covid UM, But you know, we've got an accommodate of fed UM. I think it did will eventually have a little bit more stimulus that comes probably next year, maybe as a skinnier package that may come in the lame duck period. But overall, I think the autook for small cap is still still quite solid.

So Jamie, just keeping it broad for now with the outcome of the election, Yes, it's still unclear, but is there any reason to believe though that the status quo and markets is going to change over the next twelve months three years, Let's keep it a little shorter, say twelve months with the outcome that we've seen, even though at least as it stands, it doesn't look like markets getting exactly what we were told it was pricing in

ahead of time. Yeah, you know, I think from the election, I think the results really kind of threaded the need of pretty perfectly, and just in terms of you know, what would have been the best for the markets and again, like you mentioned, especially for growth investors. Um. Again, because we have a split Congress, we're not going to have a huge stimulus, so that you know, the market overall really likes to see gridlock, and that's certainly what we're

getting from here. Um. And you know, it really takes off things like you know, tax increases on both the corporate and personal side. Um. You know, the interest rates are probably gonna stay pretty low given that we're probably not going to have this big reflationary period that was expected if if we boosted stimulus pretty dramatically. So yeah, like I said, I think it's really is kind of status quo and and really the best possible outlook that

we could have gotten from the election we got. You know, Chris, I'm I'm thinking back to when I started working for you with Bloomberg. I'm really gonna date myself here, way back in early two thousand and seven. Uh, George W.

Bush was was still the president. Uh, you know, obviously, Uh, there was that two thousand and eight election, Um, and there was certainly some talk about while is Obama gonna be good or bad for the stock market, but really the whole world was was just distracted with the financial

crisis at that point. I don't ever remember politics being this important to markets as they've been in the last few years, the Trump the Trump uh administrations specifically, How do you look at the intersection of politics and markets going forward? I mean it's I feel like the business page and the political pages of the newspapers have been fused together in the last four years. Are they going

to be attached at the hip going forward? Is the political narrative under a Biden administration going to also be the market narrative, do you think, uh? Or will that wear off eventually and we'll be back to ignoring politics like we used to. Yeah. I mean what I would say is our role in the press will be, no matter whether it matters or not, it will be to make sure that those narratives are joined at the hips, whether they deserve to be or otherwise. What what I mean.

I do feel like that's sort of the the key thing and the point that there is I'd be very interested to hear how our guests feels about that. I mean, there's a perception right now because of whatever some of the big personalities, possibly possibly because of things like Twitter, that no matter what happens on Earth, Uh, it gets

dialed back to politics. And I wonder if you know it actually does matter significantly more now than it did back in the you know, Obama period or Bush period, or if it's just something that we we as journalists

like to ascribe like everyone else. I mean, you look at the beginning of the Obama period, there was a lot you know, there was nothing like what's going on now, obviously, but there was a fair amount of naysayers willing to speak up against his likely stewardship of the things like the economy, in the stock market, and certainly in the stock market, nothing could have played out anymore against the naysayers.

And to me, I look at something like that and I say, there's any of this is Is this just an imagined correlation that we should you know, to some degree stop talk. But I wonder what our guests thinks of how much of his investment philosophies premised on anything having to do with the government. Yeah, so Jamie, let's pose that question to you. Then our markets and politics actually tied at the hip, and should they be. I think they've been that way for the last four years.

But I don't think there will be as much in the next four years. I mean, clearly we had a very polarizing figure in the White House, which certainly I think brought a lot more attention to that post than other than I Otherwise we would have had um But you know, I think it kind of is going to go back a little bit more to you know, more like how it was when Obama with an office, and when not every day had an event with a controversial tweet or something that was controversial that the market needed

to figure out. You know, there are a few issues that will have to think about, you know, come early next year, when most likely Biden has inaugurated. But um, you know, I just don't think it's going to be quite as much of a focus going forward as it has been in the past. And quite honestly, just to mention one thing, in terms of how we manage money, UM, it has very little to do, quite honest with who's

in the White House. Um. You know, we had a few names here and there that would have probably done better if the election had turned out different. But the way we invest, um, you know, with our process, it really kind of depends on what are the underlying long term trends that we see that are really impacting the companies that we invest. Uh, and that's going to change, not going to change regardless of who's in the White House or how much controversy there is in politics going

on at the time. Jam's gonna say, I don't get the impression that you really thought about positioning for for this election too much at all. You seem to look for companies that have sort of a longer secular story, Uh, that is you know, I don't know if that was on purpose or it just so happens that the companies you're looking at are a little bit insulated from sort

of the whims of the market. But walk us through how you do go about picking stocks, because I feel like this the small cap universe is so large that I'm always reus how managers like you start narrowing it down. I mean, does it start with some sort of stock screen for evaluation or growth metrics, or is it more sector specific targets. Walk us through sort of how you'll pick your next stop. What will be some of the

criteria you're you're out on the look for. Yeah, sure, let me start with our process, Mike, so um, you know, it's pretty unique, but I think pretty intuitive. We really start with kind of looking at We've identified twenty six long term trends that we think are going to underlie the secular growth opportunities that we'd like to invest in. So these are things like corporate outsourcing, increasing demand for communications, bandwidth, e commerce, stuff like that. And generally these are long

term trends, they don't tend to change much. We usually think about them being here for at least three to five years before they can kind of be considered a trend for us. UM. It really keeps us out of really deep cyclical companies and UM really we think it's going to give us a good positive tail when for the companies that we invest in, then we have a bottoms up effort where we go and we look to idea to find what we call premier companies UM. These

are ones that have solid revenue growth. We like companies with high recurring revenues that don't have to resell their entire book of business every quarter to make their numbers. And we like proven management teams that we know we're gonna under promise and over deliver relative to the targets they set out for the street, companies with high margins UM and that are hopefully increasing scalable business models UH, and ones that really have kind of a sustainable competitive

advantage versus their peers. So a lot of our ideas really kind of come out of what we shake out from those twenty six trends. You know, in addition to that, we have a lot of experience. We average about twenty nine years among the three of us that manage this product, and so you know, knowing those companies that since we've done this for a long time, we know the companies that are kind of stuck in small cap and are not likely to ever get out of small cap. We

know those companies. And since we follow you know, particular industries, we know there's when there's a cyclical change in the space that we cover, or maybe some one that's gaining market share within that that we need to kind of take a look at a closer level. But that's really kind of how our ideas really shake out. In addition to you know, of course corporate management teams going on the road doing zoom calls, he says, instead of in office meetings. We look at the I p O market

as well. So um, really our ideas came from a lot of different places. So before I get into some of those specific picks, Jamie, I want to talk about secular growth on a broad level. This week, the narrative has been all of a sudden that we might not get the blue wave that was expected. We've seen bond yields come down, and all of a sudden, secular growth has really come back and vogue across the markets. I mean, by Thursday, the NAZAC was up more than nine percent.

It was pretty unbelievable. Is is there any way to actually explain this that, after the run that the NAZAC has already had, this here, all of a sudden the market gets an outcome that wasn't necessarily expected and you

get a nine percent boost in less than a week. Yeah, not really no, But um I would say, as we've discussed a lot ourselves, I mean, the thing with the nastack goes up has become this sort of kind of funereal like I believe we were using the word buzzard like kind of symbol over the market at this point. It is not. I guess on one level, there is a cycle, there's a growth stock kind of optimism involved

in that. But another just as uh watertight interpretation of what's going on there is that it's people expressing a kind of defensive pessimism about the economy and COVID. Why wouldn't you express such a thing right now? And you know you've got these basically bulletproof, as you have reported on before, almost in assailable intangible assets that do nothing but to throw off money, and you know you're safe, like like you would buy toothpaste stocks or whatever in

the seventies. Now you buy basically all of the instruments that we're now talking over. I mean there's some Google, there's some uh Apple, there's probably some Facebook involved in what we're doing right now. You can't avoid any of this stuff. So people are buying that stuff like crazy just because they need similar to part money. And God knows, it's gone done nothing but gone up basically since forever,

as far as the last five years are concerned. So I'm not sure that there's some kind of signal about the economy or good tidings or good time. There may very well be the opposite in that, and that, you know, I guess for lack of in the absence of better evidence, is what's happening again right now. People are just doing what they've learned to do in a Pavlovian way. I guess the fear comes in when you have such a concentration in such a few names. I mean, what is

the top four weights in the SMP are inde right now. So, Jamie, I'm wondering from your perspective, when you're assembling of fund like yours, do you worry about sort of um, Obviously you're not going to have a concentration of individual names that high, I would assume, But do you worry about, say, a concentration in specific sectors. You know, I'm looking at the small cap fund a lot of biotech, healthcare, pretty

heavy waiting there. Do you at least mentally or actually have written down somewhere any type of limit on on the waitings of sectors or is it just flow from your process and you don't you're kind of agnostic to to what sectors you're you're loaded into. Yeah, we do have some limits on industry waitings about they're so high that quite honestly, I don't think I would ever get close to kind of what stated saying our perspectives, but certainly we have to think about that. Um. You know,

you mentioned biotech. It is a very very large part of the rest of the two thousand growth index. And quite honestly, these are companies that aren't aren't really kind of what we spend a lot of times doing. They're heavily reliant on the capital markets to fund their future growth. There's a lot of binary risk that comes with you know, clinical stage assets, whether they're able to hit endpoints and stocks her up a ton, and if you miss it's lick out below. So, um, you know, we we try

to find areas. So in healthcare it's things like you know, diagnostics or you know, some tools companies that we can get exposure to healthcare with businesses that we can actually feel good about owning. Um. But certainly, yeah, we kind of keep an eye on what's in the benchmark. We don't run our portfolio relative to what's in the bench market really comes more from the bottoms up ideas that

we're finding. But um, yeah, like you said, we we don't have a huge concentration within any particular name, and we don't like to have huge overweights or underweights, um, relative to each individual sector that we will make a little bit of sector bets here and there. I'm looking at your performance right now, so here to day, a ninety nine percentile one year, ninety percentile goes on three year,

five year. I'm curious this year though obviously it's been a pretty dynamic year in the midst of a pandemic the election, even though you might not factor that into your process too much. I wonder if there's anything this year that's really changed your outlook and how do you

change any holdings or boost holdings within the portfolio. Yeah, we did do a few things, um, you know around the pandemic obviously made it a little bit different from kind of a normal year year like you talked about overall, you know, our process doesn't change again like I spoke up, but certainly when you see a you know, pandemic, and it's definitely an effect. How uh it affects the consumers.

So we had a lot of names that kind of had rallied in to say January names have done you know quite well that we kind of said, all right, consumer can be pretty weak here, so we cut back quite a bit on those consumer names. And then of course when um, you know, the pandemic hit, you really got to take a look and see, you know, what's the truth stickle cality of some of these businesses. You know, how recurring are their revenues, you know, is what's their

opportunity to be like once things start to recover. Um, So we did make some changes on what you know, we sold in consumer, but a few things here that we thought would actually kind of be beneficiaries. Certainly that's our trends go. There's some trends that actually accelerated through this. You know, I mentioned kind of e commerce and increasing

demand for communications bandwidth. Um, you know, we we like to take advantage of some of those areas that you know, we had some socks that still got whacked despite you know, the fundamental is actually probably improving. So we kind of adjusted our portfolio accordingly. And so you know, that's part of the reason basically why I turnovers up a little bit higher than kind of on the normal years. We did try to take advantage of of some of those opportunities.

One thing I love about looking under the hood of small cap funds is a lot of names that aren't exactly household names. You know, you think about how the like I was saying, the markets dominated in the large cap area by such a small number of name small caps. It's always intriguing to me. Sorry, I feel like we should list the some sicker symbols uh in Jamie's funds and see if NJ can can identify the stocks. I like it. It's a game other than prices, right, and

I'm not the target of it. Okay, yeah, okay, Chris, all right, I'll start with an easy one because this is what I actually recognized. Ticker symbol love Southwest. No, No, that's all you, Madel. This is l O V like the old Al Green song. H. I don't know, yeah I did, I would. I didn't know the symbol, but it's love sack, which is those bits bank chairs. Right. What do you like about love sack, Jamie? What got

you into that that name? Yeah? So what initially got us into it is the stock and they had great products um and the stock actually kind of gotten beaten up because of China terrorists as they sourced all out of their goods out of China. But you know, we actually kind of took a test drive, went over to the store, like to the products, found them really compelling.

A Like you said, they have basically a modern version of a bean bag, and they've been getting into sectionals which they call sactionals, and they have a lot of innovation around kind of new product there that we got excited about. And Stock was, you know, we thought very

very much undervalued. One of the things that they did exceptionally well during the during the pandemic time was you know, they had about nineties showrooms that they had, Uh clearly a lot of those got closed, so they they furloughed some employees but actually got some and kind of got them online and readjusted their marketing campaign to more digital,

and sales actually kind of took off from there. So you know, it's a product that can be delivered to the home through FedEx, and it's it's one that you know for a you know, kind of smaller cap uh team that manages it. They've done an acceptable job and kind of pivoting this period through the through the pandemic, and I've done quite well, Sarah. I've got one of them right in my basement here where I'm recording this podcast from. So there. Yeah, that's that's uh, that's why right, Well,

here's here's what. I'm not gonna put an ad on the spot again, because, like I said, you're en evaluation time is coming up. I'll put you up. I'll put you on the spot, Sarah band I am cheating because I have J's portfolio lists up in front of me, So I'm gonna go ahead and say Bandwidth, this is a two and alp pcent waiting in his portfolio and basically software based communications for customers. Jamie, talk us through that one. What's uh, this seems to be kind of

a theme in your picks series. Um, you know soft sort of next generation soft communication software. Is that is that fair? Yeah? That is extremely fair. Again, software, it's kind of tough right now because a lot of the

high growth names have some really high valuations. But uh, this is one I think still on evaluation basis, you can make a really good case for So they actually have really good software expertise and they carry a lot of traffic for the next gen cutting unified communications companies. If you've ever heard of ring Central or eight by eight or Microsoft Skype for business, even companies like Zoom.

If you dial into a Zoom call instead of going over the internet but actually dialing us your in your phone, you're on Zoom's network. So all of their customers are big share gainers. They've seen really nice accelerating growth. It's again really highly recurring revenue. They've actually been getting into larger,

more strategic accounts, and they've actually been expanding internationally. They did it starting organically a couple of years ago, but recently made an acquisition of a coming called Voxbone out of Belgium. Uh, that's really going to accelerate their growth into Europe overall. That was highly creative as well. You know, the margins there. They've kind of been investing for the last couple of years in sales, but they're actually starting

to show some good margin expansion. So and again, like imaged evaluation, it's just over kind of eight times next year's sales. If you look at the sas comp group, it's kind of probably twice that much. So it's one that I think, although it's done quite well, it's got a lot more to go from evaluation standpoint. Al Right, I feel like that that kind of thing is vastly more relevant, big surprise than who's in the White House. I mean, again, not that this stuff is in any

way reliable as a specific timing tools. We are learning this week in a way. I mean, we had last week, we had this gigantic sell off that everyone putting us sort of wrote off to valuations and people are you know, COVID was alienating people from finally from the big fang structure. And now those stocks are up whatever you said, or we're ten percent ten percent in three days, So that that bit of valuation stem didn't quite work out this time, Jim.

Yet you know that Chris brings up a great point about valuations I always wonder how a small cap manager approaches valuations. Obviously, if you're looking at forward estimates UM for small cap companies not necessarily always a robust analysts coverage for some of the smaller names, especially, do you just sort of do all that work yourself or the analysts on your team and you don't rely on the cell side for their estimates. How do you sort of approach, uh,

figure out valuations on on some of the less covered names. Yeah, we'll usually take a look at able to go through a model and kind of decide where the upside could be relative to street estimates. Obviously, you want street estimates lower than where where you think they're gonna come in because certainly missing estimates can be pretty devastating for these

small companies. UM. But yeah, you really got to dig into the model understand um the drivers of of the top line and margin expansion UM and really, again I think it goes back to the inn if since he has that class, you know, if you're able to go in there and really peel apart where you think a company could make UH, and if it's vastly higher than where the street is, that's where you can make really good money, So those consensus estimates sound like they even

though they're a little thinner, and then maybe the number of estimates you get, they still matter a lot for the small caps. Uh. I guess you know, it makes me think, you know, the whole passive craze uh in buying index funds tracking the SMP is not as popular on the small cap level. Is that just a perennial opportunity for active managers in the small cap space that's less efficient, sort of less covered market. Yeah, I think

it kind of is. You know, I'm still amazed when I talk to people who kind of either index or kind of smart data their small cap exposure, just because it is so inefficient, and you know, as more money kind of moves into those, I think it's actually making

things a bit easier for active managers. Um. You know, you you kind of to be careful when you say things like that, but you know, we tend to see things that just they either get to valuations that are just too high because you know that, you know, people who have multi factor models that they're you know, just continuing to drive them higher higher, and you know you've

got nothing but downside. I mean it really I think brings out a lot more opportunities and that's great for active managers and small gap So one lest question for you, Jamie before we get to our crazy things. Mike mentioned love Sack and Bandwidth, and your other top holdings are all in the healthcare space, in the Tera Lovengo health care d X. Can't that be a really tricky space and you have some really high flyers, you also have

ones that don't do so well. So how do you go about actually sifting through the space and trying to find ones that you don't think are going to fall on the wrong side of the equation? Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, it's kind of tough that, you know, biotech, it's pretty large the index, and that's really an area that we kind of don't like, the binary risk and the reliance on the capital markets. So we've done a

few things. We we get pretty active and say the tools space and even the healthcare diagnostic space, and that's kind of a one area that we actually like a lot right now is especially genomic diagnostics. Um, you know, if you think about it, we've sequenced the human genome about twenty years ago at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars with now that same sequence costs underd

a thousand dollars. And so we're able to incorporate that data into screening tools and diagnostic tools with a lot better accuracy, a lot less invasively, UM, and we can test for a lot new things of new things. So you know, oregon transplant rejection, identifying cancers or in genetic

mutations or monitoring for cancer relapses. UM. There's a huge market that's opened up because of this, and so you know, we try to find companies that we think are gonna be able to take advantage of that, Like those names that you talked about, Nitaria, care to X, those are good examples, sir. I feel like I hear your puppy Marley in the background there, wondering if you can hear. I feel really bad. She's really upset right now. I think she's demanding some crazy things. He is demanding some

crazy things. She's demanding me to come get her. She's demanding stand clear of the craziest things we saw in markets this week. Anyway, you know what, I'd never start with the crazy things. I'm gonna start with the crazy things just because mine is kind of obvious. And it's you know, we woke up Wednesday morning. We have no idea who the president is. We have no idea who's going to control the Senate. We do know this sort of nightmare scenario of Trump Trump not necessarily going quietly

into the good night is unfolding before our eyes. And yet we see this the most incredible stock market rally, uh, we've seen in a while, especially post election today. You know, talk to my book a little bit here, but I had a story out suggesting that a a Biden win without a blue wave uh taken over Congress would not

exactly be friendly to the market. And I will piggyback off of you because my crazy thing was also a bit obvious, just the fact, uh, Tuesday evening, as the results are coming in, and we knew that Sam had had changed the limit rules and they had announced this dynamic circuit breaker essentially if one of the index futures rise or falls three and a half percent within sixty minutes, And it happened, and we got a all of two

minutes trading hall. You know, by the time by the time we got a story out, it was over pretty good stuff. Chris, you got anything crazier than that for the week. I mean I would just say Mike building on yours and building on seris to a degree big rally on Wednesday, But they equalated SMP was flat, which

is amazing. The regular weight it was up two and a half percent or whatever, The natstack was up it's traditional eight thousand percent, and the and the equal equal weight was flat, meaning meaning that um, everything else in the index other than basically tech, basically the thangs didn't do anything. I mean a lot of it fell to

bit JV. You must with you're holding, you must see that a lot these sort of massive reactions to some sort of press release that most of us cannot understand in in the biotech or healthcare industry, that that must be a pretty common occurrence for some of those stocks you hold. I guess actually it is, especially with biotech. I mean, you know, even on data you may think is kind of okay, if it's kind of just missed a little something, Uh that's sometimes I'll just go and

punish it. I mean a lot of it is just based on kind of you know, what was sentiment going into it, and uh, you know, any disappointment. I mean, we have one stock today that Uh, you know, we like a lot um. I thought it was kinda a little bit more of a turnaround. Uh, and they came up with good numbers, raised guy stocks. I mean, it's about the last that class, and you just gotta be put your chin strap on and get going. How about you, Jamie? Have you did you see anything crazy this week? You

know a lot of what you mentioned. I mean there was just a few things, you know, at last regards with your election, I was kind of really shocked that Republicans ended up picking It looks like it's gonna be about six seats in the in the House instead of losing five to fifteen, which that if that was a big surprise. That was pretty surprising. Yeah, alright, good stuff all around, Sarah. I I feel like I neglected the alternative asset class this week. Well luckily though we did

get right in. Uh. People are getting creative on how they're reaching out. This one was a Twitter dm um from at Quintessential. So it's piggybacking on something that you highlighted recently, which is that very expensive asteroid. People love this asteroid. But he said, he said, Mike may have found this already. He gave you credit, and then he said, if not, definitely one of the crazier things I've seen. Wonder what type of modeling is used to determine asteroid value?

And then he sent me a link about the ten thousand quadrillion dollar asteroid, which it's not just iron, it's iron, nickel, and plenty of other materials as well, where metals like gold, platinum, cobalt, iridium, and rhenium to Mike, so add that to the iron. Someone's got to figure out a way to wrangle that aster I think Elon Musk I think it's gonna bring that sucker home. I have no doubt. I think that's

I've said before. I think that's what's embedded in the Tesla's valuation, is that Elon is going to go out there, He's gonna he's gonna latch onto that aster all right. Unfortunately that we're gonna have to leave it there. Jamie Player and Chris n G thanks so much for coming on the show this week. Thanks thanks for having me. What goes up? We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal website and

app or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took the time to rate and review the show on Apple podcast so more listeners can find us, and you can find us on Twitter, follow me at at Sara Pantzack, Mike is that pretty anonymous, and you can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts. Also thank you to Charlie Pellett, Bloomberg Radio and the voice of the New York City Subway System. What Goes Up is produced by Jordan Gospore. The head of Bloomberg Podcast is Francesco Levie.

Thanks for listening, See you next time.