A Downer in December?

We'll talk to a strategist this week who thinks stocks may come back down to earth a bit before the year ends. And we'll also talk to a markets reporter who has been following the situations in China and Hong Kong very closely, and as always, will close out the episode with our tradition the craziest thing I saw in markets this week? And remember you two can contribute to

the podcast. Just call our Bloomberg Podcast hotline at six four or six three two four three four nine oh, and you can ask us a question, suggest a guest for the show, or even share your own craziest thing you saw in markets in the week. Just leave a voicemail and maybe we'll play your call on the show. And that strange voice you heard that is Jenny Paris our co Ho special co host this week, executive editor

for Bonds and f X at Bloomberg. I think, one of the leading authorities in bonds and f X in the company. And I'm not just saying that because it's a year end evaluation time. I swear just totally separate issue, right, forget I mentioned it at all. And also we welcome back to the show Laurie Calvacina, the head of US

equity strategy at RBC Capital Markets. Laurie, welcome back. Thanks for having me and also joining us again another second time I think on the showy She he's a markets blogger for Bloomberg Markets Live, Easy, expert on all things China and global markets. E. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thanks for having all. Right,

lor let's start with you. I you had a note out this week that really caught my attention because I think the SMP was trading at about and you said we're not going to change our year end target of fifty. So I'm reading it, I'm thinking, wow, that's about five dropped from here, and I have to hand it to you a for not changing your your ear end target in November. That's kind of that's kind of a shady

thing to do. But I think you make a good case for why we may see the SMP sort of come back to earth a little bit by the end of the year and hit that target. Of So why don't you walk us through your thinking on why you're sticking by that target. Sure, so you know, we view our our target as a signaling mechanism as much as anything else, and at this point in time, we don't want to signal to people that we think you should

chase the market up in the short term. And if you go through when you look through a lot of our indicators, and people who know me say, you know, Laurie, one of the things we like about you as you're all about the data. So, especially when we feel like emotions coming back into the market, we really rely on that data and I see a lot of peaks in

that data. Um first thing we see when we look at our valuation indicator, we are back to levels that we saw really mark a ceiling several times over the last few years, including when the tax Reform Act was passed back in January. Um, it's marked a ceiling a couple of other times since then. When we look at the CFTC positioning data, we see something similar. Um, we are back to July, nineteen, September and January eighteen extremes. So we think that you are just plain old fashioned

overbought in the equity market right now. And to be honest, Mike, when I talked to investors and I talked to people who are more bullish, I hear the fomo in their voices, and I look back at this chart and I think back to those peaks and I heard the same thing. Then. So even the sort of you know, kind of entry of emotion into some of the discussions about the market seem, you know, sort of ski really familiar to me at

this point in time. And there are you know, four other reasons we went through, but I would say those are the two primary things we've been looking at, you know, Like I said, it's it's a rational, logical, believable case. The one thing I will ask you, though, is I feel like, uh, the end of the year December is kind of when the period of the year when rational logical cases kind of go to die. You know that FOMA really kicks in. You've got window dressing at the

end of the year. Uh, you've got you know, the proverbial Santa claus rally. Is any of that sort of a risk to your targets? You think, where is there are the fundamentals? Really do they feel like they're gonna win out here? So, you know, I do think the sort of year in chasing, I do think that matters. But I think you already saw a good amount of that in October UM. And one of the things we've pointed out we have this one chart where we look

at when mutual funds fiscal year ends are. There are a lot in December, but they're almost just as many in October. So we think that's largely played out at this point. And honestly, I would say most active managers we talked to their out performing for the year. UM. They haven't had as easy of a go as it lately, So I think there's a little bit of rebalancing that's going on, But I frankly worry more about profit taking for that remaining amount of funds that have the December

fiscal year ends. So with this year round approaching. For these managers, really the priority is uh preservation of their profit and their ownings. What do you think would be the catalyst between now and then that would change their views, that would prompt them to really go back to reevaluating

their holdings that they have so far. So one of the things we've talked about is the fact that expectations are still too high and we frankly haven't seen that much of an adjustment to them over the last few weeks and earnings um you know, we found analysts are asking companies what do you think is going to happen in twenty twenty, and the companies are coming back and say, now,

I get back to us in January and February. We don't really have a lot of visibility on that, but we do think that risk is going to start to get priced in at some point because we do talk to a lot of investors who say, well, maybe you know, nine percent earnings growth next year is not going to happen. And as I've talked to people over the past week,

I'm really sensing a sort of, you know, concern. While we know we're not going into a recession, but are we really seeing what we need to see to think there's a major re acceleration coming, So there are some seeds of doubts starting to creep in. I would also say, frankly, on the trade war, we think that good news. There has been a lot of the part of this move.

If you look since August, we've seen tremendous outperformance by trade war sensitive stocks and we're starting to see some stumbles this week where perhaps that phase one deal, which was supposed to be the easy, low hanging fruit, is proving to be a lot tougher to come by. UM. And we think that's been a huge part of this rally. I think we're valuations and positioning our the market can't handle bad news there. Yeah, I'm curious. You know, you

talked to a lot of clients and fund managers and whatnot. Um, do you get the impression that the consensus is that this phase one of the deal is a done deal? Is that seem to be you know what everyone's thinking right now? Well, well, I'll give you a hard stat on that, and it's a little bit stale. But um. Back at the end of September, we did an investor survey and we actually asked people, do you think a trade deal. When do you think a trade deal with

China will get done? And we found that there wasn't a lot of and census on the timing, but two thirds of the investors in that poll back in September said that they thought something would get done before the election. In so, I think there's there's been a view that Trump needs to get a win on this front before the election. I've been hearing about that since August. That hasn't really changed. Um So, I think the expectation there

is pretty high now. I think people are debating what will the content of that deal be, But generally I think most people have expected something to get done and they've just kind of coalesced around this four Q timing. So missing that sort of original deadline was supposed to be at the APEC summit that was canceled because of the unrest in Chili. I think that was scheduled for

next week basically the middle of November. Uh. Missing that sort of artificial deadline is not really something that's going to concern people too much. Respect I think that something needs to get done sooner rather than later. But I think that particular point in time, I mean, you saw a reaction in the market very briefly, and then we bounced back. But one thing I would also tell you is, you know, we're we're sort of getting these dribs and drabs in the market right We're not. It feels like

we're melting up. But these percentage moves every day are actually not that huge. So I do think that's, you know, a little bit of skepticism there, maybe weighing on things a bit. I feel like that's creeping in just a little bit. Right now, you're in the advantage seed if you're the only one among us who can actually follow the Chinese state media in the original language and social media.

What is your takeaway of the sentiment uh coming off of the Chinese media right now from what you've read, is it is the optimism there as well that a deal is sort of in the near future, were sometime next year, I think I would have characterized as a cautious optivism. UM. I think what's interesting is that the Chinese as increasingly take a hotline towards the US um because they sense there's some like the timing is on their side with the election, with the economy is kind

of slowing down. Trump probably needs something, So what they ask for is at the precondiction condition for phase one deal, US need not only to call off the potential tariff in December, but also to remove some of the existing tariffs imposed as precondition for any deal. And Uh, the Chinese position has been quite clearly, if you want to deal, this is our our demand. You have to meet our demand if you want to deal. So it's up to pregnant Trump whether he wants a deal or not. How

is it would that be? We know that he does want a deal and he wants something positive going into the twenty election, But at the same time, we hear a lot of noise this last few days, especially about how backing down on tariffs has become one of the Chinese demands and that's probably the hardest one to deliver. Yeah, my sense is that the US I try to maxim maximize the concession from China using the tariff as a

leverage um. At this moment, it's not clear how much ground Chinese China needs to give up, so we are kind of hanging balanced. Ye, Jenny, I'm gonna put you in the hot seat here as well. Uh, just because your co host doesn't mean you get out of have an answer questions. You know, you read all of our coverage on the bond market, and earlier in this month, you know, people were talking about these green shoots in

the economy. One of the things that was backing that up is this sort of sell off in the treasury market. We saw the ten year yield sort of creeping back towards that two percent level. This week, though there seems

to be yet another about face. I'm curious, what do you think is driving that and is there isn't at all possible to kind of predict the next sort of trend for yields or is it a lost cause at this point the bond the bond market, I would say at the moment, we're saying it in a in a rat where traders basically are trying to decide where we're

going to go next. And I think the best characterization that I so this week in the note was describing it as a line from the ground all of your English nursery rhyme where it goes Basically, the rhyme goes like bones went up marched up a hill, they took a look up from up there, and then they climb

back down and that's really boring. Where we seeing Bonn Hills going at the moment when when they knocked at the two percent door, I think traders and the market started to wonder what is going to take Bonn Hills higher from here? And really what we're saying now is a lack of inflation still coming back to how this market and it's uh the reflation trade that people even dirt starting talk again earlier this week. It has no legs if we don't see really prices moving up. We

had CPI data earlier this week. All of that is coming to really add up to there is no impeters for the bond rally to to stop at this point. Well, when English nursery rhymes are being used to explain the market, I thought, I thought we were dumping ahead of the craziest thing in markets this week. That's a good contender. Reminds me of one Yi sang sang the bond market

theme song to sim But lord, let's get back to you. I. You know, one of the things you've written about recently two is this rotation from growth and momentum back into value. How much of that is dependent on the signals from the bond market I mean, obviously financials banks are some

of the big stocks in the value index. Will the bond markets sort of call the shots to some degree to the to that rotation, Well, you know, I will say to some extent, I do think this is just all one big trade and the bond yields right in the middle of it. So we've done a lot of

work and we've put a lot of charts together. The bond yield moves up, um you tend to see I S M move up, and we think what's really being expressed in the industrials trade at the moment and the financials trade as well, is just the idea that the

industrial economy is bottoming. And if you go back and you look to the period we actually saw the bond yield stabilize before i SM did, So we think the bond yield has being somewhat anticipatory and investors are really trying to bank on this re acceleration and in the global economy and the domestic economy. Now, I will tell you on industrials, we did upgrade it back in September,

and that's not quite the call we were making. I think we caught a nice tail wind here, but The way we put it was, look, if we're at a turning point and we really are re accelerating, we think that industrials are deeply undervalued. We think that they will rip on the upside. And we said, if we're, by contrast, at a tipping point, we think that's already baked in, and if we lose the economy, we lose the consumer. The consumer sectors are overvalued. There's more risk there, So

go ahead and buy the industrials. Anyway, they'll probably hold up on the downside. So I can see ways industrials could hang on here. But I would say, Mike, in general, I think you're right that the bond yield is calling the shots here, you know, and I keep hearing about these quote unquote green shoots in the economy. I think a lot of people are really talking about signals from the market itself, either the bond market were the leaders in the stock market. Is there any sort of hard

economic data that you're looking at. I mean, we still have a I S M manufacturing UH index. That's that's very weak. Uh. Are there a green shoots in the hard data? So you know, when we look at things like the yield curve, you've gone from a mild inversion to slight steepening that's coincided with the shift into value, the shift in the small cap that's traditionally how the trade works. UM. So I don't know if you would call that hard data or not, but it is something

that is saying that the moves have been justified. UM. One thing that we look at in our small cap work as well as the year over year trend and the cast freight shipment data, and what we're seeing there is not not what I would call a green shoot necessarily, but you're starting to get less bad on that year over year decline, and traditionally small caps do tend to get a little bit of a bid when that that deceleration stops and you start to get a little bit

less bad in terms of the decline. So I think you're seeing some things that can justify the bottoming argument. My view is it's still maybe just a little bit too early to declare and all clear to declare this reacceleration. UM. We've gone through reporting season. I'm not seeing a lot of commentary on those green shoots. We had a couple of days of testimony from Chairman Dround Powell, and one thing that became clear is that he doesn't see any

serious risks to the current expansion. Uh. And if anything, he also said that there isn't really what is characteristic in this expected there is there any sector that is really hot, So you can't have a beast if there is no boom. As he put it, Uh, it doesn't sound like the fat things that we are towards the end of the cycle. And even they called their first rate cut to mid cycle adjustment. Now, you know, I thought I saw that same common as well about the

hot areas. UM, I'm not I'm not sure. UM I would characterize what's going on with software and I T services stocks as cool necessarily. Um. You know, that's something we've described as sort of a mini bubblet and I think there have been, you know, other examples of that as well. I think there are so many excesses that are around. You know, we we see the same things when we look at entertainment stocks, for example, that they've

been pretty overvalued and overbought. They're not quite as widespread as they've been in the past. When I hear about the rotation from growth in the value, I always wonder is it really valuations. Is it the fact that the rest of the market is sort of expensive and the valuations that are sucking people in, Or is it uh the companies and the industries, those real cyclical industries that are in the value cohort for the moment. Is it which do you see as sort of the driver of

that rotation. Well, I think it's it's sort of a breakdown in the affinity for secular growth. And if you think about you know, some of these software stocks for example, or these I T services names, some of these internet names that we're doing well in the first half of the year, they were viewed as safe havens in the trade war, safe havens from an economic slowdown, and so there was a real desire to be in those areas and that basically just coincides with the growth in the

momentum trade. When you look on the flip side and you look at value, I do think a lot of it is this particular sector. So we look at things like financials and industrials. They've done very well here recently, for better or worse, since those are two sectors that outperform when I M is going up and underperform when I S M is going down. They are the cyclicals of this particular cycle, and so you know, I think that the ability of those sectors to lead UM has

really dictated that move into the value trade. We have also seen historically going back over many cycles that financials and industrials are two sectors that when they outperform, the value trade is working generally. So I think they really go hand in hand. Shee. It all comes back to the trade. Were at the end of the day, and I'm curious because you spent what was it three or four months recently actually in Hong Kong. You had an assignment over there for Bloomberg. Ironically, you show up in

Hong Kong and everything goes crazy. I don't know if it's if there's a correlation the correlation, but walk us through um sort of your experience in Hong Kong, what you saw. I'm curious what you think about the unrest in Hong Kong and if it could ever sort of

collide with the trade tensions. Obviously, there's a bill that's kind of stalled in the Senate now, the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act, that would uh cause the US to sort of monitor the situation in Hong Kong going forward, or could these two stories sort of collide and kind of gum up the trade talks at all? I think my opinion, my personal opinion is that the China's attitude has being like separate the trade found the

diplomat issues, geographic politics issues. They trade these trade talk as pure trade relations. So I don't think the Hong Kong situation is tied to the trade talk itself. Uh. But obviously the whole nationalism could affect the could give some voices of the hawks within the Chinese government, But I don't think these two things that go handing hand. So even though we could have some bills uh we gotting to the Hong Kong human rights or even Shin Jong situation or even so China see, but we could

see some positive progress on the trade front. Lord, do you do you think about this Hong Kong situation when you're when you're thinking about markets. We've thought about it a little bit, and you know, we're we're a market I'm a market expert, not a political expert. But you know, you kind of have to put on both hats to some extent today in my seat, and we we've really just We've seen so many investors speculate about who has

the leverage and who has the incentive. And you know, the way I look at this is I do think that, uh, neither side at this point in time, because of what's going on domestically in their own countries, can really afford to look weak. And so I see sort of two sides that are going to be very determined to go in and really get what they want and stand up for their countries. And in my mind, that makes, um,

getting concessions more difficult. So I've probably been a little bit more skeptical that we get a Phase one than

a lot of the invest as I talked to. And I've also frankly been skeptical that, um, we're going to get anything of real substance that's going to allow businesses to have confidence to invest again that necessarily, you know, a sort of weak deal wouldn't necessarily be an impediments who the market taking off as a result of I imagine, well, the problem with a weak deal that doesn't really accomplish anything.

And remember this is being talked about in different phases is companies understand that there are bigger issues at play here, and if you get a deal that doesn't really address any of those and they aren't really off the table. I don't personally understand how that restores business confidence. If you look at the conference board measure of CEO confidence, it's literally about as bad as it tends to get in the middle of her sessions. I mean, it is

really really down in the dull drums. At this point in time, there's been a lot of damage done to business confidence, and so, you know, getting a weak deal while corporations know that there are still these bigger issues that have to be dealt with. I just don't understand how that changes the mentality. And I'll be honest with you. As we've looked through these corporate transcripts, we are looking to see what companies are saying about a Phase one

trade deal. And I read one company that talked, I think about a ray of sunshine, um, and that was about it. UM. I am Italy haven't gotten through this week's transcript yet. I've only gotten through last Friday. But you know, I'm just not seeing a lot of table pounding, a lot of excitement over Phase one deal. You know, I'm I'm seeing it in the market. I'm not seeing

it in corporate commentary. Just to go back to China and Hong Kong, how much does the situation actually we can China's negotiating position, like talking about a week deal. Does it put China on the defensive here having to deal with such a situation so close to home? Uh? China, we know that they have tried too so hard to avoid some kind of credit crisis in their own backyard. Could this be some kind other implosion that would actually uh force them to in a in a way that

hasn't been antssipated so far. UM. I think the Chinese position have been clear that the Hong Kong is Hong Kong's government has the capacity and the capability and resources to deal with this issue. They respect these one country two systems. So at this point, all these issues are left with the Hong Kong government. UM, while the China is focused um it's domestic issues. It's a relation with

the with the US. I don't think the Hong Kong situation is going to affect or change any of the thinking of the Chinese government when it comes to the trade or managing its only economy. In terms of how China managed economy, one of the tools that they're using is of course the U want and the fixing, the daily fixing. It's always something that we watched to see as the which way at China. The win is blowing in China. What do you make of it? These days?

They have been actually keeping it pretty stable so far. Yeah, it's the market. It's kind of nervous. Back in July August when the yuan first broke the seven pa dollar level, that a lot of people thought it was like a psychologically very important level. But since then the market has kind of calm down and perhaps supported by the all these positive sentiment or the trade situation. The fact is that PBOC have been largely hands off since then of

a couple of amoungst this. If you look at the fixing relative to the actual price of the Chinese yuan, they are pretty close. So there's no any sign that the government or the PBOC is intervening in the market to support at this point. Is the our attitude is kind of hands free. You let the market to decide exchange rate. They are not in a position to push

one way or the other. Alright, I think before we get to the craziest things, Laurie, we already put you on the spot on your two thousand nineteen year and forecast. I'll be issuing my two thousand nineteen forecast in late December. Well, let's stand by for that, but I correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think you've put out one for yet.

Is there any sort of teaser you can give us something? Well, look, we haven't put out a price target for twenty yet, but we have actually published our twenty earnings forecast, and we we put that out a couple of months ago. We've been fine tuning it ever since, and we're modeling in five and a half percent earnings growth, which would be a bit of a recovery from this year, which looks like it's going to come in more or less flat.

And I'll tell you that the sort of nuts and bolts of our model have been something investors have been really interested in, especially the last few weeks. Um you know, I would say one big assumption that we have is we've got to think about four and a half percent revenue growth, baked in some of that from sluggish GDP growth, some of that from inflation. But as I talked to investors, they're very focused on what the revenue backdrop will be

so that that's been of interest. UM. We've baked in sixty w t I, which may be a little bit too high. UM. The other thing that's interesting is we've baked in flat margins and that's something else that investors have really, you know, sort of wanted to understand why we've baked in commodity cost pressures have come down, and we frankly just seeing companies have prioritized keeping their margins intact this year. UM. And then the last thing we're

baking in that that may be a bit controversial. We've got buy back activity moderating to about a one percent next year account reduction next year, UM, and this year it's going to come in more like to two point one percent. So you know that we think it's still going to be a good year from an earnings perspective, but we think the cell side is about, you know, twice as high as it should be. Can I ask what you baked in for treasury years? Since you said

that the acting is a signal. Um, you know, we're to be honest, we're using the Bloomberg consensus data on that. UM. We we we really shameless plug from my host today. Well, that's good. I'm glad to see that gets amused. And I will say, regardless of where the market closes this year, I think when you're looking out a market that's up year to date, Uh, getting that close is a pretty

good accomplishment. So congrats, Oh thanks, And you know, look, we we put a twenty nine target in around Thanksgiving last year. Um, we did the table on it in January, and in April this year we raised and we wanted to signal at the time we thought there was more room to go. We don't want to send that same signal to right right, Yeah, especially after the December we had of two thousand and eighteen. It's uh, you know, it took some guts, I think, to to call for

a rally this year. So let's get to those crazy things. I think you did not come prepared with a crazy thing to you know, I'm rely on you. That's good. I've got I've got way more crazy things than that we can probably fit in we had. Uh. You know, I like to look at what we call the alternative asset classes for my crazy things. And I will say I mean it when I'm talking about alternative and you'll see what I mean, and I think the listeners have

caught on. So I've gotten some uh some uh entries from people in Bloomberg and some readers on Twitter who who listened to the show. Uh. First one comes from vil Donna, Hi Rick. She's kind of like our chief Crazy Things correspondent for the show. She also always provides us with good ones. And she found the story Bloomberg story about potent Philippe wristwatch that's sold for thirty one million dollars at a charity auction by Christie's in Geneva.

Thirty one million for a restaurant wrist watch. I does have dials on both sides for some reason, so I don't I don't know why, but I guess that that makes it worth thirty one million. Another one from a user on Twitter at Paul David waalbrun Um. I think he actually out did vill Donna with this auction. H A bathtub shaped as a golden hippo sold for four point three million at Christie's on Tuesday, returning almost twenty percent to its owner, who purchased it more than a

decade ago. And that's a story by Katsia Kasa Kina our art correspondent here a Bloomberg who provides us with a lot of crazy market things when it comes to the art art market. I think I can outdo them both though. And this is another auction. This one was held in Italy. It was for a truffle. This is the Alba white truffle fair. I guess they hold it every year. Uh, two point two pound truffle. I'm gonna play prices right though. Uh what would you glory pay

for a two point two pound white truffle? I have no idea. I have no idea. She has not modeled that on her forecast for two twenty What would you pay for a two point two pound white truffle? I'll give you a hand. It's a lot less than the wrist watch, but it's still a surprising number, all right, Jenny paris On, I guess you win a hundred and thirty two thousand dollars for a white truffle at this auction in Italy. So I would be worried if I went to a restaurant. Then you know how they those

restaurants that don't show you the prices. You could end up ordering a plate a risotto for like three three grand if it has this this truffle on it, but Lurry it it all serious. This I often hear people look at these ridiculous things like this and try to interpret it as some sign of euphoria in the economy. Were among investors? Is that? Is that a silly thing to do? Or is there any information you would take from a one million dollar risk watch and a four

million dollar hipochape tub. Well, look, I think these you know that the reason people make that connection, right, is just the idea that there's too much money slashing around in the system and there's a little bit too much

excess risk taking. And I think there are a lot of different things you could point to this year that that suggests that while this is not as bad as the tech bubble, while this is not as bad as the financial crisis, there's there's a little bit a hint of that, hints of that, and a lot of things people are seeing these days. I mean, I think that's fair. I think that's fair. All right, Jenny Parris, do you

have a crazy thing for us? I do. I don't think I can compete with the white truffle, the expensive risk watch. But speaking to Laura's point about too too much money in the system and excess risk taken. Would talk a lot about negative yields and UH in the bond market, and what I saw this week it was a story about negative yields in Nigeria, of all places.

I thought that was crazy. Of course we're talking about real yields, but what's happening there is really because the authorities have banned the pension fans from buying into some of them highest yielding central bank assets. They have turned to three month treasury builds and now they're yielding UH less than the inflation rate in that market. And an auction this week, so the record demand thirty times over. So there you have it, negative Nigeria and real yields.

That's pretty amazing. Although I imagine inflation is pretty high Nigeria so but but still negative real yields in Nigeria. Laurry,

do you have any crazy things for us? So? I don't have anything particularly wacky, But I did talk to my team this morning and you know, said I'm coming on the podcast and and I asked them what they thought was the craziest thing this week, And um, one of the guys on my team came back and right away, and he said, you know, it's the chart that we put out showing that we've basically erased the trade war.

And what I mean by that is, we have these baskets and we look at the stocks most exposed to the trade war and most immune to the trade war based on our transcript review, and we just looked at relative valuation and relative performance. And if you look at both of those, um, they bottomed over the summer and they're right back today at levels where they were in one queue of before the trade war with China was

a glimmer in anybody's eye. That's pretty interesting. And that goes to your point that all the potential good news is probably baked in from the from the trade war. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if nothing else, we're right back where we started from. Great stuff. Well. Uh, Laurie Calvacina, yees she, Jenny Paris, thank you all so much for coming on the show this week, and I hope we see you all again, uh sometime soon. Thank you thanks for having me.

What goes up? We'll be back next week. Until then, you can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, website and app where wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you took the time to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts so more listeners can find us, and you can find us on Twitter. Follow Sarah at Sarah Ponzac, Jenny Paris is at Paris Underscore Jenny, I'm at Reaganonymous, Our guest Laurie Calvacina is at l Calvacina RBC, and Yeesh is at x I y E Bloomberg. You

can also follow Bloomberg Podcasts at podcasts. What Goes Up is produced by Toper Foreheads. The head of Bloomberg Podcasts is Francesco Levy. Thanks for listening, See you next time.