Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Tepolski, and I have to admit something to everyone listening. Gotta tell you something. It's not something I talk about a lot. It's not something that I like to put out there
very much. It's very private. But I'm a gamer. You know, some people might not know that about me, But I like video games and I play them on a regular basis, and you know, to be honest with you, I have not gotten much of a chance on this podcast to talk about my love of gaming and my status as an official gamer in the landscape of other gamers, and so I was hoping and thinking for a long time about having someone on who I could really get into
it with about video games, both past, present and future. So the man that immediately came to mind is Washington Post journalist Gene Park, who is hilarious on Twitter and other social media platforms and is super smart and interesting when it comes to I would say adult commentary on video games, because there's a lot of commentary and video games. It's not that it's not adult, but it's not quite at the level that I desire my video game commentary
to be. That said, there's also a lot of great video game journalism out there, and a lot of great ethics and video game journalism, which I'm excited about always. So we got Gene. We said, well, you do the podcast. I didn't do any of this. This is my producers and Jean said, yes, I guess, and so we got him here to talk about game and all sorts of other stuff, but mostly about video games. So I'm very excited about this. I have a feeling that we're going to connect on a deep level and I want to
get into it. So let's go. So first off, I think we follow each other on a variety of social networks. Have we ever met in person?
No, I don't believe so, and I believe this is the first time we're actually talking face to face, so with our voices. Josh, nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to meet you too. And I really love following you.
I think you're a person who first off, you're like a poster, you know, like you know how to post, like you're like an original poster. I don't know how long you've been like in journalism. I think it's been a pretty long time. Like I want to say, your career in journalism is significantly longer than mine. When did you start, like as a journalist.
Well, I've been posting since high school in the mid nineties, right, Okay, yeah, so that's where my posting abilities come from. I'm originally from the Pacific Island and American territory of Guam. And in Guam during the nineties, there was one chat room and that was where everyone who had Internet on Guam was going to congregate and talk and gossip and flirt and whatever.
Wow.
And when I was in high school, I was the moderator of that chat room.
Oh my gosh, so wow.
Yeah, So I had the entire nation of Guam like like online, like at my fingertips. It was a lot of power for a fifteen year old.
Who knows that's a huge amount of power. I actually have a little bit of a similar well not quite that. That's crazy, like for all of Guam. I think that's very impressive. Pittsburgh didn't have a lot of like there was in the mid nineties, Like there was only one I think maybe one ISP besides like things like Prodigy
and whatever. There was like Prodigy and AOL and and it was called tele And I worked there as a teen in like customer support, and I also coined a great piece of ad copy for them, which was tell a Rama, tell your Mama, which I thought was frankly, an incredible troke of genius. Anyhow, but I get it. I was online at a very young age, way too young, I think I was on the first time I was
actually on the internet, I was like twelve. Yeah. I don't know how old you are, and I'm not, you know, and I'm not going to force you to tell me. But I'm forty one. Okay, Oh you're a little younger than me. I'm forty five, and so I've been online for a long time anyhow.
I'm not even sure I was online in twelve. So you were online longer, and you've been a live longer too.
I have been a live longer. That is a fact. You can't this irrefutable unless you talk to like RFK Junior, who will tell you that's wrong. And here's why.
But to answer your original question, I started journalism right after college. I graduated college in two thousand and three and I went back to Guam to work at the paper there.
And that's how long I've been working, so twenty years. So twenty years. Yeah, so I think that's probably. I mean I really started like blogging two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, like is when I really started, so like at end gadget. So anyhow long and short is you're great at posting, and I like following you. I've been obviously like Twitter now sucks and it's horrible and we all want to leave it as soon as
humanly possible. But one thing that you do that I really enjoy is you engage with people, which is great. I mean, you know, like obviously can sometimes be to your detriment, but like you know, you will you know, answer people who are I feel like, kind of being like asses or at least respond to them in some way,
because there are a lot of asses on Twitter. And you also like just talk about stuff and like you post stuff that's like very like real and honest about like you know, personal stuff, but also like your thoughts on the industry like that you cover. And so I enjoy it and I followed you for a long time and it's always strange, like to like finally like talk to a person who you think you know, you think I think I know you, Like I know a bunch of stuff about you. I'd like know your work, but
we don't really know each other. We don't know what could happen here. A lot of people have met me in real life and they would pretty much say, yeah, you seem to be what I expected, and that's what I hope for. I'm an elder millennial, right like you? So or you, I guess you're gen X. I'm gen X. Yeah, I'm just right on the coast.
But like gen X and millennial, I guess right. Yeah, But I have no energy to put up a persona online.
You know.
I can't be another character online, you know. Yeah, the character that you see is the character that you get. I'm if I seem loud, I'm actually loud in real life. If I seem a little shy, and that's what I feel like being shy in real life. Right, It's pretty much.
What what do you expect? So, yeah, no, I think that's actually like, I think that is a generational thing to some extent. I feel that very strongly. It's actually very hard, and in fact, the producers of this show
will tell you. I think there's a little slight like frustrating element of I'm like not self promotional and I don't like to affect a vibe of whatever it is I'm not actually feeling, you know, and like it's interesting joining all these new social networks now, you know, trying to like play around with them, like blue Sky and mask it On and now obviously Threads, I'm like, Okay, what do I want to post here? Honestly, lately, a lot of it is like I don't want to post anything.
I kind of don't feel like engaging. It's like, God, the idea of like, I don't know, are you on threads? You must be?
I think I follow you are Actually you probably follow each other. I'm not really active there right now.
But right are you? Like? Oh god, now I have to like do threads? Like is that a thing that you feel daunted by? Yeah?
I'm before I cover video games, I want to have been covering video games for three years. So just to be clear, a lot of people think that I've been in the games industry for a long time. We're covering the beat for a long time.
You've only been doing for three years.
It's only been three years, just like two and a half years.
Wow.
But before that, I was a social media and audience editor to Washington Post. And part of the reason why I'm glad I'm not at that job anymore is because I can't keep up with all these platforms anymore. You know, TikTok is one that I've just given up on. It's a completely different language. Again, Like you would need to be a different persona for that platform.
And you have to like produce video for it. Like that's the problem for me, is like I don't I don't know. I just don't want to like have to make a video, you know, being self promotional on video too, right, Yes, no, it's very cringe in my in my opinion, there's just a high level of cringe. Now, you and I may have a different like radar for cringe. We may think things are cringey as we might have referred to them at an earlier era. Now they've just shortened it. They're
just taking off letters. But I see a lot of stuff, and I see people who are like, you know, some people who are like contemporaries of mine. Not that many certainly around this age. But and I'm like, like, I don't I wouldn't post that like personally, like that doesn't feel like a thing i'd do.
Yeah, man, me too. I have a lot of friends my age on TikTok and I'm watching them and I'm like, I don't know if I really like your content, and I don't know if everybody works. You know, It's it's I wouldn't tell them this in their face, but I'm a little embarrassed, you know, right, right, No, No.
It's it's wild when you like see somebody that you know pretty well and then you see them on TikTok and like you're.
Like, oh yeah, and it's like, I know you don't do these dances in real life, you know.
Right, It's like I got a life this now, because otherwise it is going to seem really weird. Like you know, it's like, yeah, you don't want to bring it up, but anyhow, so you're good. You're good at posting. I'm actually very curious now. I thought, for some reason, you've been covering games longer. I think perhaps it is because I feel like your voice on it is very authoritative.
I think like you have really interesting commentary and sort of like a perspective on gaming that I find to be you know, I mean, I think I assume it goes out saying that you're a lifelong gamer. Am I am?
I correct and understanding that. Yeah, thanks for saying that. It's funny that you say that, because earlier today I actually did a training with a bunch of our Washington Post interns. One of my biggest pieces of advice. Well, they were asking me why I sound so authoritative, And part of that is because of my long history of just reporting in other topics crime courts, local city council, state government, and transportation, education, right, a lot of factual
based stuff. So I was able to like really strengthen my writing voice in that way. And also, plus, I'm a lifelong gamer, so so if I'm authoritative on something like fucking traffic or something, imagine how authoritative I might sound if it's something that I actually like and I've been liking and doing for it since i was six years old, you know, right.
I think there's part of it is one hundred percent what you just said. It's like you have this experience in all these other places where like and you know, I think this is one of the things that's been lacking and gaming for so long, is like taking it seriously, like it's like this is serious, like it is important. Like I think gaming is really important. I think it's like the most exciting, like newest art form that exists,
and there's nothing else like it in the world. And like to have the perspective to report on it well and to talk about it thoughtfully. I think what you've done previously clearly like adds to it anyhow, So obviously I think you're great. I've been just been a compliment fest for the whole beginning of this. We can talk
about this decision with Microsoft and Activision. Pretend somebody's listening is and they have no idea what's going on with Microsoft and Activision, and like the legal system that is like trying to regulate what they're doing, Could you like explain it in a very simple way. Sure? Sure.
So Microsoft has the Xbox division, which which you know, creates the games and makes the game consoles, and Xbox has been kind of struggling in terms of producing content to feed that ecosystem. Right now, Xbox wants to be the quote unquote Netflix of games, so they have a service called game Pass where you subscribe for at least or at most fifteen dollars a month, and at least it's a dollar a month depending on what kind of
deals you get. You get access and you're able to download a smortgage board of video games probably about two hundred wrote rotin library video games and.
You just get to play them for a dollar a month.
They could be it could be as low as a dollar a month if you just like buy it Xbox and you like use a free coupon like in the box or whatever could deal. It could be a dollar could be fun. I think they re actually raised it to two bucks now, so you know, oh no, oh no.
That's not bad, right, Okay, So it's like in all you can eat, Like it's like games you can stream and down can stream and download it. Yeah.
I mean that's the difference between this and Netflix is that like you can actually download the games and it'll be in your hardware. You won't own it, right, you can still buy it, which is a nice thing. You can't really buy stranger things off Netflix, right.
Like everything on Netflix is like you're leasing it for the duration that you view it and then yeah, it goes back into the back to their servers or whatever. Exactly.
So about a year and a half ago, Microsoft announced that well they've been on an acquisition acquisition spree where they've been buying video game studios up and their last big acquisition was but there's a game Studios which they acquire for seven million dollars. And these are the guys who make the Elder Scrolls games. I'm sure many of your listeners know the game Skyrim, Fallout, Fallout right, and then upcoming my favorite Fallout three Star Fuel coming out
this spot, right. And then so Microsoft announced about a year and a half go that they were going to buy Activision Blizzard King for the tune of sixty nine billion dollars, easily theges gaming acquisition ever, the biggest tech tech acquisition.
Is that, right, It's the biggest tech acquisition ever.
Yeah, yeah, and that's actually said in the decision. But then there's of course, like you know Disney buying Fox and that was like one hundreds over one hundred billion dollars, I believe, and then AT and T buying Warner, which was also just like a little bit bigger. So it's definitely on that scale. I think it's probably like the six to seven biggest acquisition of all time. That's crazy. And then so an acquisition that big would fall under
a lot of regulatory scrutiny. So various different regulatory bodies around the world are looking at the deal and they've mostly approved it. I think it's basically thirty nine countries that improved it. Right now, the only one pending is the UK with their Competitive Markets Authority and the FTC. So the FTC filed suit for preliminary injunction basically a temporary restraining order on the deal to stop it, basically
signing anti trust concerns. FTC Commissioner Lena Kahan, you know, has built her career on anti trust legislating and this was a big deal for her. Yeah, So the FTC try to sue Microsoft had They had hearings in San Francisco Federal Court for the last few weeks and the judge sided against the FTC and basically said there's no reason to hold this up and we can go into those reasons more later if you want. But that's basically
what happens. So it is pretty clear a green light for the deal to go ahead, and the deal is supposed to close July eighteenth.
Right the FTC is there's some have they already countered or sorry appealed or are going to appeal. They have already apeled Yeah, they appealed, but.
You know, as my understanding is, that's just procedural and also, you know, appeals to rarely ever win.
You know, so so Activision Blizzard King Is that the full name of the business, Is that correct?
The king part is important because the king part is the one that makes candy crush. That's the real moneymaker along with call of duty. You know, is candy crusherly like, is is it? I haven't like looked at these numbers in a while. It's it's still popular, right, Okay, wow? Interesting then you look I mean, I listen.
I think like when you get right down to it, there's only a few things that really stick on a phone, Like there's really in the history, Like when it comes to like this shit, like, there's gonna be a few things and it's gonna be like yeah, like candy Crush will just be there forever.
Yeah, candy Crust is still popular, but a lot of people don't really talk about it. It's like keta mean, like you don't really understand like how prevalament it is until you see someone.
Like oh, okay, people are still doing this, okay, till you get a bump and you're like, hey, actually this is terrific.
Why don't I why I do this all the time. That's what the case sounds for an ABK right, yeah, yeah, okay, So they make Candy Crush, they make the Call of Duty series, which is a very very popular propaganda for the US military, perhaps perhaps the single most effective piece of propaganda that has ever been created in service of convincing people that the US military rocks. Not saying that the military is bad, but I think the military industrial
complex is not great, you know, just really speaking. But anyhow, call of Duty? What else do they make? What I mean, give me another do they make what's the new that's on the blizzard side?
And they make World of Warcraft, which I'm sure a lot of people Okay that was a phenomenon a couple of years ago, used to.
Be popular, but now it's waned slightly. Yeah.
Activision also owns a Crash Bandicoot of.
Course, the lucrative Crash Bandicoot franchise.
And goes own the Tony Hawkfeedeo games too.
So all right, Tony Hawk, that's but you know, kind of honestly, like so here's where it words rom getty like, Yes, these games are obviously very well known, successful, huge moneymakers. But even with all of those titles, I don't know, and even with Bethesda, like Sony still seems to have like the better games. And my understanding is that part of this deal, they're not saying like we're not going
to release Call of Duty for the PlayStation right. In fact, like they kind of have to make some kind of commitment to releasing those games eventually, right, Is that correct?
Yeah, they did have to commit to that, and they've also said that it would make monetary sense to continue to make it because you know, one I did, one of the biggest audiences for Call of Duty is on PlayStations, so they would probably lose money of the life they decided to stop it.
So so so yeah, So, like there's a lot of publishers that have a lot of really popular games. I guess, like you know, on the Sony side, like Sony as a as a publisher in and of itself, it is probably responsible for some of the most popular titles, and like I don't know, Like I guess the Sony also own a bunch of studios like I actually don't remember they do the most.
Notably they own Naughty Dog and the makers of Last of Us.
Oh, yeah, about incredible.
While ago, I think doing the PlayStation three era, they made the Uncharted games, which is basically you know, millennial Indiana Jones, right, oh yes, and then they own in some NAT games and they're currently very popular for their Spider Man games, which are fantastic.
Right, They're really good. They're really good. Okay, so they're trying to buy Activision Activision Blizzard King makes all these games, including Candy Crush. The FTC says, Look, this is an antitrust situation. This is a monopolistic acquisition, right, is that's the idea, Like, by buying a company this large and attaching it to where you already have all these other businesses that are producing huge franchises, you threaten the potential
of the fair market here or something. Is that correct? Yeah? Pretty much.
And I think there's an argument to be made about, you know, the fact that it's Microsoft that's doing in. Microsoft, that's the fourth largest company in the world, that already has its fingers, its fingers in so many different pies already right now, it wants to dominate the video game space, which is definitely not and that was probably what helped Microsoft the Microsoft's case to most the fact that it is a struggling brand in the in the Vidya game market.
Right Like, Comparatively, I guess the PlayStation brand and Sony's gaming efforts are more successful and Nintendo, I mean, Nintendo is I would guess, way more successful in terms of I mean, they strike me as being the most successful video game company. I think they.
Probably had the highest profits. I don't know if they hid the highest revenues, but I think in terms of.
Profits they are. This is actually something we'll get into this because I do want to talk about Nintendo for a minute, and we'll get into that, but just to just to kind of like, you know, cap this off, so it seems like it's going to go through. I guess, like my feeling is, I'm always loath to side with like a huge corporation over something.
There's no good guys, there's no real good guys in the story.
No, they're still good guys. I mean I just feel like, well, first off, it's like, you know, what is the goal? Why is it necessary? I guess if you're not going to limit the release of these games for other platforms, which it sounds like they're claiming they're not going to Does it even serve their goal to I guess it does, because there's all kinds of other things you can do, like licensing and IP stuff and like, yeah.
I guess the probably with Microsoft is that it's been very, very bad at managing intellectual property, you know. Yeah, so you see Mario and Mario just came out with a movie this year and it's actually the biggest box off office block muster.
Of the year. Yeah, insane.
That comes from Nintendo building and nurturing and nursing an IP for the last forty years. So when a Mario movie just comes out, it already has an automatic worldwide, huge audience.
Right.
Microsoft doesn't really have anything anything like that. They have Halo. They did a show, Yeah, and they did the show which was not great. Yeah, well the paramount says that it did. Okay, So it's like okay, I'm sure, but the Halo characters are really dumb. I'm sorry, Like, who's the main guy, master Chief. It's a really dumb character. It's like a it's like a marine. First off, it's like it's like a military guy and you like don't see him.
He's always like war. He's like you.
Always talking about war, like the people fighting. Yeah, he's not supposed to be anything or anybody. He's supposed to be an average He's right, you're supposed to imprint yourself on this idea. He's got a hood, like he's always wearing a mirrored mask or whatever, like helmet, and you're just supposed to be like, this could be anybody. I mean, he obviously is like, you know, tough military bro or whatever. But yeah, and then the show was like, actually, know he's this guy and he also has sex.
You know, so isn't he Isn't he different from you? Oh? Really?
They showed they showed his face. They show his face numerous times. That was a huge controversy, the fact that they showed that that he can't keep his helmet off.
And I don't mind it.
I think it's I think it makes sense for the for the guy to keep his helmet off.
But it was a huge deal.
But then I was fine with this the show until he took his like the rest of his armor off to have sex.
And I was like, right, okay, you think he should have kept the armor on, but just removed the pelvic area.
Well, I don't think he should have had sex. It completely ruins completely well master Chief. Does master Chief not have desires? Does he not deserve love? I mean, he's got to ask yourself.
Because he does. But he has sex with a prisoner of war in the story.
Oh that's inappropriate, that's not cool, like his prisoner, it's his prisoner.
Yeah, I mean it's consensual, but the balance.
Of power, you know, Okay, Yeah, I feel like that's not a good way to start a relationship. I would at least wait till they're out and free, and then if they come back and they're like, hey, you know what, I thought we had something while I was a prisoner, then maybe let them take the initiative. But uh, okay, well that raises many questions. Certainly, I now feel like I really want to see Master Chief's face and also
hopefully his nude body. I definitely am interested in. Yeah, his but okay, master chiefs but just fully out there. So actually, but it's a character. I'm sorry, like you're comparing it, like you're saying, that's a franchise they have, right, sure, if master Chief is the most like relatable character that Microsoft has created, it's kind of like, yeah, like this is sort of hits your point home, right, like exactly,
they can't there where? Who's there super Mario? Yeah? You know? Yeah, I mean you look at Mario.
He has so much personality, you know everything about him. You know, he's a working class hero. You know, he likes to eat, he looks very happy. There's a lot you can read from him just by looking at him. And then when Master Chief it's like, oh, he's a soldier.
Guy, he likes I would do it. He likes to eat, Like yeah, I mean, I actually I don't I know. He likes to eat. He doesn't apparently like mushrooms. Now, according to the movie, the film is canon. A lot of canon changes in the film. From what I can tell, a lot of things that are introduced. I don't want to give any spoilers, but I watched the movie with
my daughter Zelda. She loved it. I've been telling people, like, there's a really interesting this is as much as I'll say about it, there's a really interesting thing in the film about the Italian, about Mario's Italian accent. That's all I'll say. But I found it to be quite shocking. Frankly, Yeah, and I don't know if that's a controversial point that people have been talking about. But anyhow, sorry, So Microsoft
sucks at IP. I totally interrupted you just too. I don't even know what, but Microsoft sucks at IP.
Yeah, that's why they want to acquire activistion Blizzard because has all of his other IP.
You know, that makes sense, And I think, like maybe they need some IP because like Sony has like really good IP. I mean, Sony has the best shit, Like the Last of Us is like I mean, Sony and Nintendo both, but like, yeah, they've created some pretty iconic characters and brands, and I feel like, you know, I mean, Microsoft, like why not let them take a crack at it? Like maybe the unfair market is that they don't have any cool characters that anybody cares about.
So well, this is a comparison I've made, I've started to make recently. You think about what Microsoft is as a company and what they've always been. They've never been an entertainment company, right, They're not in a company that manages IP or culture or art. You know, Sony has Sony Pictures, Sony's Sony has been in music publishing for for decades. Yeah, Nintendo is Nintendo, right, of course, Nintendo
Nintendo does when Nintendo does. Yeah, Microsoft creates operating systems, right, it creates software.
It's the plumbing. And this is like Bill Gates. I better have cited this on a recent podcast, but Bill Gates famously there's an interview with him where he talks about how like they don't want to be the stuff you see, they want to be the plumbing. And like that's exactly what Microsoft has created, right, Like, it's not the character up top, It's not like every character they create, Clippy, huge failure. They tried to be like personable with the Zoon.
The Zooon was like had a lot of character, but everybody hated it exactly. I'm trying to think of other Microsoft characters. There's not a lot.
I mean, there's a Windows Phone, you know, doesn't really have a lot of personality there too, you know.
No horrible. I mean, I mean I actually like the Windows Phone interface, but it was just a bunch of squares. Yeah, I've heard it was bit it was fun and I like the Windows interface too. I mean I'm using it right now Xbox. Yeah.
And that's the thing about the game Pass service. It does well, Microsoft does best. It's a really good service. It's a really good online service. I think it could be used by everyone, you know, very much like what Microsoft products have been, right, But there's just nothing creative there and that's really fueling it, you know.
Yeah, so they need to plug in, Like essentially, like your Netflix analogy is like Netflix only got really rose to it's like crazy success in the period when they started making original content and they started to have these like yeah, huge franchises that were like everybody had to see and like in order. I guess this is really the idea, right, They're using this model. Like if you look at the Netflix model, it's like you make Stranger Things and House of Cards and there are other ones
I can't think of right now. I don't a bird box. I have a fucking note. But you know, like if you make these things that everybody's like you got to see it and you can only see it on your platform, that's a match made and heaven right ever last year two? Right? Yeah, it's a good game, right, I mean sort of in a way very Apple right, where it's like the software the hardware and it's all like walled off, like you
can only get it in this experience or whatever. But it's it's it's like a monopoly of ecosystems, right, Like everybody wants you in their system and in their world and wants to like wants you to pay for it and wants to give you the best stuff so you never leave, or give you stuff that you want so you never leave. I mean it makes a lot of
sense in that regard. But like they're gonna need a lot more than just like a couple of game companies, right like Microsoft, Yeah one, they need like a lot of IP to really make that, like like Sony produces like like the Spider Man IP is theirs, right, Like they have Spider Man and that's like the first party thing that they're producing.
Like I love a synergy with the movies and the game too.
Yeah, right exactly. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean it makes sense for them. I mean xboxes. I had a series X and I is that the new one Series X that was called Ye, that's the new one. I had it. I hadn't I had. I never opened it, and I we'd ended up doing like a giveaway with it at one of my one of my websites because I was like, yeah, I have a PC and I have a PlayStation in the PlayStation five, and I'm like, Xbox, if you have a decent PC, you're fo Yeah, I have a My
PC kicks ass. I literally like built my PC in preparation for Cyberpunk twenty seventy seven.
That's a whole other Oh man, I love that game.
Yeah, I love that game too. Only elden Ring has topped my playtime on a game. Oh totally. I've actually only recently done the thing that I think people normally do, where you actually I probably played Fallout three more than both of those games. But that's it.
That's at a time when I wasn't. I had a huge affinity for Fallout three. When I first moved to DC in twenty fifteen. The first thing, the very first thing I did when I moved to DC, was I put on my my head my headphones, and I walked around listening to the Fallout three soundtrack just to come yes, dude, relived that experience in real life.
It was.
It was awesome because Fallout three, for people who don't know it, takes place at a post apocalyptic Washington, DC. So I'm walking around to the city, I'm like, Wow, it really is like the game, you know.
Yeah, it has like really pretty like well crafted map points that are like if you if you go to DC like and look at them, they're like, oh yeah, like that's exactly what it looks like. But in Fallout obviously even re created the metros. Yeah no, it's awesome, And I mean I spent so much time playing Follow three and anyhow. Okay, so so right, but Fallout three that that is that's a long time ago. But yeah, no, I'm cyberpunk. This is. We could talk about that for
for for hours, but that's true. I mean we really, we really could. But yeah, like let's talk about Nintendo for a second, because it is interesting to me, like
when they announced the Wii. First off, like there was a period where Nintendo kind of wasn't and maybe I'm maybe this is just my perception of it, but I feel like there was a period like post s NES or SNATS as some people might refer to, which I think is wrong, but you know whatever, to each its own, there was I feel like there was a period where there was like, yes, Nintenda was releasing game systems and they were doing okay, but they none of them really
seemed to be like the thing that everybody played I feel like it was like when the PlayStation. When PlayStation came into existence, everybody's attention shifted to PlayStation. Like all the people I knew and all the people that I gamed with were like we were playing like Metal Gear and like whatever that first gen you know, like Silent Hill and all that stuff, and it was like we were like, Okay, this is it, this is the next thing. And I feel like for a while there, Nintendo wasn't
that competitive with them. Is that by the way, Is that my perception or is that.
Like that's true? And you know, for people ton't know, that was an issue of format. Nintendo didn't want to use CDs as the medium to deliver games, whereas PlayStation, which originally developed the PlayStation of Fort Nintendo, until Nintendo decided, nah, it's crazy. That's why Sony decided to say, okay, well we made this whole video game system with CDs, we might as well just release it and call it the PlayStation.
And that'll happened. And it was really an issue of format. So, like you know, Final Fantasy sixteenes came up, but Final and Fantasy seven came out on the PlayStation because it had the CD format. They could not make Final Fantasy seven Middle Gear Solid on the Nintendo sixty four, which was in a very limited cartridge format totally. There's not a lot of space for audio, there's a lot of space for video, there's not a lot of memory space for like three D three D imagery, whereas.
The PlayStation did right. So, and this was also at a time when CD ROMs were very prevalent, like in the computing world. It wasn't like it was a weird new format that nobody had ever heard of. It was like very common if you were a computer user to encounter like the Encarta CD or whatever, you know, like or whatever it is you we put on CDs. So like, yeah,
that's interesting. But Nintendo, So this is sort of what I was going to get to, is that they are always doing this thing where they're like rejecting the kind of status quo, Like they're rejecting this idea. Like I think there was a real conceit across the board in the video game industry at that time, because I feel like that was right around the era of like three D Oero and Jaguar, which actually was cartridge base but I think it had a CD adapter Turbographics is probably
it's like last the generation before it. My favorite game system the Turbo Graphics also known as the PC Engine, but that had a CD adapter and like I think, and then eventually the Turbo Duo, which was just a single unit with the CD but in the Sega CD obviously, and there was a real like conceit amongst all the seemingly all of the companies that like CDs were the thing and you needed to go to CD, and Nintenda was like, no, we're not going to do that, and
then they did. Actually, God, now that I'm thinking it was so weird. They're so fucking weird. Then they released what is.
It, the N sixty four that was a cartridge that was that wasn't when I used cartridge and that was the beginning.
No, that was cartridge was the beginning. That's kind of floundering period. That's Golden Eye, right, that's like the GoldenEye GoldenEye too.
Yeah, so like it had had great, amazing games like Goldeneye' obviously Mario Mario Party Smashed Brothers debut on that system too.
Well. Their thing was like there their idea there was like we're not going to do CDs, the games are going to be way less complex in a way. But the whole thing with that was we think more people should play. It was like a group thing, right because it had four controller inputs on the front instead of the normal two that you saw in every other system. Right, this is as I as we talk about it's actually like my mind is going back to like all this
weirdness intent. It's always like everybody's doing CDs, so we don't care about that. But what we think might be interesting is like what if four people could play instead of two? And then eventually they do with the game Cube. I guess right, they do three inch I want to say they do mini the mini CDs? Am I crazy? ABC's I don't even know what that's called. Hold on, what is it? I'm just going to google it right now? Miny CDs many they're called a mini CD.
Okay, they're called a mini CD okay.
And yeah, this is a thing where Nintendo's like, hey, you know what, CDs are cool, but not the ones that hold all the stuff. We want the ones that hold like half as much stuff, Like that's our thing. And so they released the game Cube, which I'll admit I bought. I definitely bought for a specific game, like I want to say, maybe it was a Resident Evil title. Yeah, yeah, I definitely bought a Dreamcast. I bought the Dreamcast. Oh that was another CD bassist in the Dreamcast. I bought
that to play Code Veronica. And I'm really dating myself right now. Geene, you know everything. Everything I'm talking about. You're familiar with, correct, I know all the games. You have very good tastes, So there's that. Yeah, thank you, Well, I try. I have a very specific kind of taste. There's only a few types of games that I really enjoy, and I enjoy them heavily. I'll tell you. Oh, you know what game I've probably played more of than any
other game is a Dead Cells. Are you Dead Cells playing? Yeah? I love Dead Cells. Yeah, I've played Dead Cells like more than I think any other game I've ever played. That's another game that's actually very souls like. It's like you have to be good at it to enjoy it. That's a game that has the perfect mixture of you can pick it up at any time and play it totally, or you can sit and do a whole session for
hours and hours. But like if you can only play for five minutes, like it's pretty enjoyable, or you want to play for like two hours, it's enjoyable. Anyhow, Okay, so Nintendo does this weird shit. And then when they announced the Wii, which was like, I don't know what year that was, two thousand, God, I don't know one, I don't know. That doesn't sound right and it doesn't matter.
They announced the Wii, and I was like, this is fucking stupid, Like nobody wants this shit, Like nobody wants to like stand in their living room with these things and like pretend they're golfing or whatever. And I will say, you know, I don't rarely get things wrong. I'm usually totally right about everything. But people fucking love the Wii. Right like the we brought them back basically from this like weird gray zone into like it became like the thing.
Am I crazy again for remembering it that way? No, you're not, But this is most of the time. When they started releasing the Nintendo DS, which is actually the well, I think, the second highest selling video game like machine of all time, just under the PlayStation two writ handheld, they were like handheld, Yes, it was a handheld market and the casual market of the we that really kind of you know, relifted their fortunes basically for the rest of the century. Okay, anyhow, But so the thing with
Nintendo is the switch. This is where I'm getting to by the way, I know, I swear I had a point. There's a long winded way of getting there. The switch is like again, they announced it and I was like, I don't know, like why, Like it's like underpowered. It's like really underpowered. Like even when they announced it, it was like, oh, it only does seven twenty right, that was a big thing. It doesn't even do full HD.
It only does and correct me if I'm wrong, but it is only seven to twenty max right on the handheld device.
Yeah, it could go up to trinity on the screen on the TV, which is decent. Right, that's definitely not four K. It can't hit four K at all.
So no, Well, there was a lot of controversy about them even doing it like HD. I remember there was I feel like there was some era where like they wouldn't like the WI wasn't HD.
Oh yeah, we was not HHD. I think that only went up to four I think they only went up to like four eighty I and then We You was the first. Yeah, actual, HD completely forgot about the WU and let me say so, I just connected the mine back up actually just the other day, dude.
So I found mine in a box like a month ago, and I was like, I should put this, I should hook this back up. So I bought the w U because of Zombie U. Yeah, that's a great game, which I thought looked like the dopest fucking game in the world. And I have to say, to this day one of the greatest, one of the greatest games ever made, particularly on the WU because of the way they used the controller.
But I've actually played it. I've actually played on a bunch of different like I have it on my PC, and like it's like one of the best zombie games. I feel like it has not gotten like the cred that it deserves or the or the love that it deserves.
We haven't given Zombie You as its flowers as a culture because it's it's very good, Okay, We You kind of was not successful, right, The WU was sort of a.
It is the worst setting Colusstle of all time. Wow. Really definitely the worst Nendo's ever made, for sure. So the switch comes out from what I can tell, and you tell me if I'm wrong, because I feel like you probably know these numbers. It seems like it's like the biggest selling like game console of all time or something. Am I am? I crazier saying that it's number three right now.
Okay, so they're gunning to replace the Nintendo DS, and it seems that they're going to hit, right, it's still a question of whether they're going to hit the one hundred and fifty four million that the PlayStation two sold.
Oh, that's the biggest selling of all time. The PlayStation two is the biggest selling of all time.
And a big factor that is the fact that it was the cheapest DVD player on the market at the time. So if you wanted to watch movies at home, that's amazing. Light as well just buy a PlayStation two because it's way way because remember when DVD players were like three hundred four hundred bucks for some reason.
Yes, I do, I definitely do remember that. I mean it's crazy, crazy to think, yeah, anyhow.
But yeah, the switches catch you up though. The switches catch you up right, and it's still selling a bunch.
It's telling a bunch and it's like and it's like it's like Nintendo's that does this thing that I'm like so sort of I'm so confused by it. I don't understand why it works to a degree. Like they keep going like, hey, do you like super Mario, Like remember that Super Mario game you loved as a kid? Super Mario two or whatever. They're like, we rebate it. It's the same game, but it's like better and it's for the new system, and people are like, oh my god,
they're fucking lining up for it. And that's the same thing they do with Pokemon, Like all the time they're like, hey, remember the Pokemon you loved as a teen, Now you're thirty, and we remade it for the switch, and like it just seems like it shouldn't work, like right, Like it's like it's like the Marvel movies. Now people are kind of like, eh, I'm okay, I'm like I've seen these all. I'm good.
Still playing Pokemon as a forty year old, you know, yes, yes, But what's more insane is not just that you're playing it. My guess is recently, pretty recently, you've played a game that was like it's a remade version of a game that you played already, right, yeah.
I mean that's a bunch of games. But the Pokemon franchise in particular is like they're always like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the Pokemon would would just remake remakes basically you know so.
Right, and you think it shouldn't work, and like it always does, and I don't understand, like it, like, what is it about Nintendo? What is it about them that allows them to have these notions? Like do you have any understanding of how it is they come up with these like weird, left of center kind of ideas that just somehow like really connect with with humans.
I think that they always focus on the concept of play. So you look at Zelda, Tiers of the Kingdom and other games are talking about, oh, how can I get powered up? Or how how can I feel more powerful or have more combos or moves and stuff like that, right, yeah, that's every other game, whereas in Zelda, Zelda asks you, see what happens when you put this square into the square hole and see how how good that feels? You know, right,
it's basically that old TikTok you know. It's now, see what happens when you put a triangle in a square hole.
Oh yeah, oh my god, that's a great that's a great. Wait is that is that a vine? Actually? I think it was.
I think it was a TikTok. It's it feels a as old as of mine for sure.
Yeah, yeah, I know what I was talking about. That.
Yeah, it's definitely an old TikTok. But it's like very simple concepts that are very easy to understand. You know, build the sea saw, I see how the seesaw works. So there's a primal instinct of they have this connection on the concept of play that I think a lot
of other companies still are forgetting. And that's why they focus so much on cartridges back then, because they figured that the loading times of the CDs would get in the way of the play, because nobody wants to just sit around and wait until the game starts up.
Again. Turns out we do, yeah, but you know, we do. We turns out we will pretty much spend like a pretty good segment of our lives waiting for shit to load. And it's only recently that we are now, Like only today, really, I feel like, have we gotten to a point where you can play a game pretty much the whole time and never have it load, which is they's spent over twenty years and we finally got to this point. You know, it's pretty amazing, I will say.
But well, Mario's creator also says, you know, he says he never plays any other games, so there's kind of like a tunnel vision there, like he only plays Mario. He just doesn't play games, I guess, and he just has ideas. You know, I don't know how much he is really into making games these days, because he's over seventy. He mostly oversaw like the creation of like well, the Mario movie and also the theme park in Universal Studios too, so he's.
Been doing you're talking about a shagear. The creative Mario Manzilda. So I met him at CS when I was thirteen. My dad took me to CS in Chicago and he was there. Oh man, I met him and he signed my badge and drew Mario on it. Okay, and some I believe somewhere in my parents' house is that fucking badge. And I'm I would really like to find it, and I'd like to get up. I'm like, I like, I'm not not to sell it or something, because I think it would be fucking amazing, you know, like to frame
or whatever. We've talked about a lot of things. I feel like I rambled us into some weird territory, but I'd like to get from you a little bit of presaging about the future of video games. I'll start with some simple things, and then I'll take it into a more complicated space. First off, are there any games that are coming out in the near future that you are particularly excited about and feel like are going to be particularly interesting or good.
This is gonna be an obvious answer, but I'm definitely looking forward to the next pathestic game, Starfield.
Right.
Are you worried that it's going to be a No Man's Sky situation? I am worried that the game will be a lot simpler than I think it appears to be. And that's partially because Fallout four came out and they simplified so many things from Fallout three, which is why I still look at Fallout three so much more favorably.
I agree, so they.
Had more systems going on, it was mu much more of a role playing game. Fallout four really simplified, like the decisions you make. They used to be very multifaceted, and then Fallout four they became very binary. So they've been trending that way for why for the last decade or so. So I'm worried that Starfield is going to be the culmination of that that's trimming down of every role playing aspect. But they seem to be promising a lot.
But then the issue is that Todd Howard, the director of but As the Studios, has been a little you know, I respect him a lot, I love him, but he's also a bit of a charlatan, you know, and he just he just says things, you know, and it doesn't come out to be exactly true. So I'm really really fascinated interested to see whether there are actually a thousand planets that the game promises that you can fly around in and explore.
Yeh see. See. When I hear that, I'm like, it's too many planets, Like I feel like one of the problems with the game too lately for me is like there's too much going on, there's so much to do that I'm like, I don't know what to do here, Like there's too much, too many options, you know. Yeah, I will say you were talking about the new Zeuda which is called Tiers of the Kingdom, right, is that
the subtitle. I haven't played it yet because I haven't finished Breath of the Wild, which is a whole thing. I mean, I just I never got into Bath of the Wild. I would just go to Teers of the Kingdom lodency first.
It's fine, really, you think I can just jump into it. About the narrative, the story barely matters. I think the game like barely remembers Breath of the Wild happened. And that's been kind of a meme right where like you know, people are like, oh, where does Tears are king of fit in the timeline? And people are like, I don't know if it even fits on the timeland and Breath of the Wild because it barely mentions the Breath of
the Wild. Right, So I think you can go to Tiers in Kingdom feeling pretty good about yourself.
So just cool, there's it's a much better good. Okay, All right, Well you've I mean i've I mean I've been watching people's videos, like not too much because I don't want spoil it, but what it does, what it's doing looks like so much fun and so creative and like just like crazily creative. I'm like, god, this is such a Nintendo move. It just feels like everybody's zigging and they zag and where they zag is just like a crazy, like super fun, playful thing. Like to your
point about play. By the way, we forgot that Microsoft owns Minecraft, which or I forgot to mention it, but that's a huge franchise for them. Like Minecraft is like very popular, right, so I mean they have that it's the best selling game of all time. Well, there you have it. I mean, Microsoft, they're they're crushing it.
But Minecraft and Zelda, Tears and the Kingdom have a lot of in common because, like you know, there's so much creative a right they're building so like like several years ago, Minecraft was popular for you know, people was able to actually create a working computer inside Minecraft, right, And in Zelda they're actually starting to.
Do that now too, if they realize. If you look up a subreddit.
Hiro engineering, Zelda players have already gone moved on to fuse entanglement and quantum physic physics. No, come on, that's crazy. That's already happening in Zelda there, you know, I.
Mean that's it was my first thought when I saw what people were doing with it. I'm like, oh, they kind of took the Minecraft concept. They did. I want to get your take on Apple's on the Vision pro Like, obviously there's like gaming implications. There's huge gaming implications with like any company who's doing VR, give me, like your take on that, and I guess maybe more broadly like VR and if you think that's like actually where gaming is headed.
VR is interesting because people have been trying to have it for a long time and trying to make it happen. I keep going back to this VR conference I attended in California several years ago, and this was around the time when the Nintendo Switch and Breadth of the Wild came out and Zelda Breath at the while, and it was interesting to see all these VR creators and CEOs of VR companies, and they explicitly referenced Zelda. They were especially fascinated by the fact that Zelda and the Nintendo
Switch were selling one to one. Every copy of Zelda would come with Nintendo Switch and vice versa, and they were fascinated by that and they were jealous of it. They were like, we're trying to sell VR hardware, but we have no software. That is as compelling as a Zelda to move actual hardware, to get consumers to spend hundreds of dollars in hardware and an adjuster living space around it. And they haven't found that, And I feel like that's still where VR is. That said, I'm really
really excited for apples and pro. I'm a huge Apple fan. I have so many different Apple products and I've just really leaned into the wall garden aspect of Apple. I'm enjoying it, and if I could afford it, I would totally get get a vision pro. After that press conference happened and with Apple, I was walking around to Washington Post newsdroop asking various people of knowledge or of management, so what is her Apple vision pro strategy? Because we're getting some for the office right right?
Are you are you? Actually? Nobody said anything. I think you could make it happen. I mean you could definitely, like someone's getting it for review there right, Like yeah, for sure, for hear that.
And then we have like a bunch of VR headsets around because like you know, the Washington Puss is played with VR a ar like storytelling.
I think we kind of gave up it for a while, but you know, well that's because it was a gimmick and everybody was kind of like it's.
Exactly So, I mean, I'm sure people are watching the vision pro and wondering like, like, do we need Apple to have to make VR a thing?
I don't know, but I think I think your point is actually really well taken. It's how you know, I've thought about a lot of this, having tried a ton of these things. I mean, I have lots of issues with their concept of how to do it, but like my big one is actually what you said, which is like, what's the thing, What's the app or the game or the experience that's so compelling that you will put this thing on and like tune out the world and go
like totally immersive into it. And like, I just think nobody has established like I've played some very compelling and very immersive stuff, Like I think some of the Star Wars stuff they did, for like with the Quest was really really cool, and I told you, I'm like, oh, this is awesome, Like you just check it out. It's super fun. But like to invest like a signific amount of time or energy into that, like, well, first off, VR makes me nauseous, So like I have to take
dramamine to use it. It makes me sick.
So there's also like that hurdles. Like when I played Half Life Alex on the Steam VR, incredible game. I've never experienced anyone like it, Like I would probably think that that's probably the closest name to an actual killer app, where like, anyone interested in vide games you should absolutely try that out. But it was so realistic that I was nauseous for about two hours.
You know. Oh wow, Like that's interesting because I bought that game with the intention because obviously it's Half Life. I bought that game with the intention of, like, I'm going to play this. I just need to like get the headset and like hook it up and whatever. And I've never I've kind of just been like, well, I'm not going to get into that, and so I've avoided it completely. But I wouldn't just buy one just for it. And that's the problem, right right exactly, That's that is
the problem. In a nutshell. Okay, Gene, I got to let you go. Unfortunately, this is super fun. You definitely got to come back. And frankly, we can talk about it probably a lot of stuff, but the gaming stuff is so interesting to hear somebody with like your history and experience, it's just like really fun to get your perspective on it. So thank you so much for doing this, and you know, come back soon.
Yeah, thanks for having me and I'd love to be back soon.
Thanks so much. Well, Gene's great. I love Gene. I got to say, and I don't know that I've ever had in recent memory of conversation that was quite that nerdy and in the weeds frankly about the weird video games that I that I like. I do feel extremely good because Jeane said that I had good taste in video games, and I think coming from him, that's a massive compliment. So that gives from my ego that's a great boost, very exciting stuff. Anyhow, that is our show
for this week. We will be back next week with more what Future, and as always, I wish you and your family the very best.