The Haters Don't Phase Rebecca Jennings

the Internet a lot. The Internet as an object of mystery, the Internet as a meeting point for the greatest minds of our generation and also the worst minds of our generation. Strangely enough, they're all there, just like in the real world, just like I R L. Are all gathering, conversing, talking about the days news and offering their viewpoints, all of which are terrible, no matter who they are, all bad viewpoints. I think we've all been there. I think you know

who you are. I certainly know who I am. Anyhow, I've been thinking about the nature of the Internet and the people who are on and frankly the people who use it for profit. I don't know. I'd say for fun and profit, but I'm not really sure we can

say that anymore. And Uh, it got me thinking about great journalists who cover influencer culture and the sort of world of influencers that exist now, which is I think has gotten It's quite diverse actually in a way, just all sorts of different levels of people influencing being influenced.

So that of course led me to think about the journalists I know who are great at covering this stuff, and I thought of Rebecca Jennings, who is a senior correspondent at vox dot com and also has a blog about fashion, but her day job, uh, really is about reporting on some of the strangest and most influential influencers who have ever influenced and anyhow, So I thought, let's bring her on. Let's talk about what is going on out there, Let's talk about those strange pockets of the

Internet that she is professionally chronicling every day. So Rebecca Jennings has joined the podcast for a chat about the future of influence. First off, thank you for doing this, of course, I should say, I really appreciate it. By the way, are you drinking red wine? Is that a glass of red wine? I am drinking red wine because let let me be clear, it is six pm, I'm off the clock, and I have to go to a bar right after this, so I'm pregaming. No dude, my

way into my office where I record the podcast. There's a refrigerator in our garage because I'm behind my garage. This is way too much information for what I'm about to tell you. I grabbed a non alcoholic beer. I'm like, yeah, I'll just have an n A beer, like I don't need a drink. The whole time before that, I was like I should get a drink, And now that you're drinking,

I feel like I've made a horrible mistake going in. Man, I'd like to, but the time it would take for me to actually go and retrieve a drink right now would be like you'd have to go to the bar. So but I was been thinking about how there's so much stuff to talk about with you that, so I really appreciate you doing it. How would you describe your coverage beat? You're at a dinner party. You're seated next to a person who's like, doesn't own an iPhone. They're

like a flip phone person. Yeah, no, I know you think a flip phone is cool, so do I. Because the person was a flip phone who's like unaware that they could have a different type of phone. And then there's a person has a flip phone as like a status. Now this is the first person. This is the person who just has at the flip phone since and they're just rolling with it anyhow. They're fifty five years old there, they work in accounting, and you have to explain your

job to them. Go ahead, what would you say? Not to put you on the spot, and how do you how would you describe it? No? No, totally. I mean the easy answer is like I would just say, like I write about internet culture, and you know, you you hear about all these influencers. Have you heard about I don't know this Kim Kardashian lady, She's she's one of the influencers, and there's a whole lot more of them. And they'd be like, so you, oh, you write about

Kim Kardashian, but you don't write it. I mean you probably have written about Kim Kardashian, but right, but it would be sort of like, well, she kind of was the first version of this thing that's you know, very very prevalent. Now a lot of people are just making money online and I am covering the way they do that and the way that people interact online. That's pretty good. Yeah, I'm trying not to use any like big buzzwords that

would trip somebody like that up, like the creator economy. No, you know right well, the creator economy is over, isn't it. Isn't that dead? Isn't that that was? It was? Sure, there's there's always going to be people making money online and that's getting famous online, and that's all I care about.

And it's interesting what you just said though, Actually, do you consider Kim Kardashian to be like the seed of this flower that has I want to say this flower there's blossom, but I'm not sure that's exactly how you describe it. Like, is Kim Kardashian's rise to fame the sap lane that has led to this forest of influencers? No, I just think that she's such a global icon. Like I'm not even saying that in like a positive way.

It's just like people know who she is, even if they have a flip phone, and they are not doing that as some kind of statusy way. And I think her rise totally correlates to the rise of social media,

which is like basically what I cover. Um, But I mean I would also argue that, you know, Paris Hilton before her is is a good example of the kind of tabloid internet bloggy culture that started in the two thousands or that early two thousand's, And then I think Kim Kardashian and you know, to an extent, her family. Really really we're one of the first people to like capitalize stratospherically on this idea that you don't need to go through the traditional media or even blogs in order

to be famous. You can just go directly to the people on Instagram, to the people. It's very democratic, it's really very beautiful. Actually, it's we really like level the playing field. You could say, we've almost socialized it. Really. Yeah, everything's perfect now, no notes, everything, everything is perfect, and like all of the money making opportunities are very permanent and long lasting career decisions if you're fairly distributed. Yeah, definitely,

definitely fairly distributed. What's interesting actually about your beat is there are these megap like a Kim Kardashian or like, what's the most popular influencer that you can think of

right now? Give me like a name. God, Like it doesn't have to be the absolute top, but like, who's somebody who's like a household name from an influencer perspective, like, but on the Internet, I think the real answer for you is probably someone like Mr Beast and R Like, I think that is the biggest most influential Internet person right now, Mr Beast And for those who don't maybe don't know, and I don't know who would be listening to my podcast and not know. But Mr Beast is

a YouTuber. He's like a regular white guy from right isn't pretty pretty much and he's famous for what what is he famous for? What is it? What do people like about him? Basically, he's a YouTuber. He pulls a lot of big, flashy stunts where he pranks, a lot of pranks, a lot of big like you know, he made a fake version of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, and you know, and the Squid Game, Like he pulled a stunt where he got all these like extras, like extra actors.

So he recycles culture is a guy who's like, remember that thing that happening, culture, I did it again, but at a mall or whatever, and people are like, oh my god, yeah, and adds like really crazy YouTube thumbnails and with all caps titles that are just like visual stimuli for your kids to watch. So in his main fan bases like twelve year old boys or something, right, maybe it's twelve year old girls as well, but like he's for kids, Is that the idea? Yeah? Yeah, yeah.

I feel like there's this whole strain of YouTubers that are just like a replacement for Jackass, some like slightly more evolved version of Jackass, but without the charm, without like the I agree or the danger. Yeah, exactly, much more Santati. The Jackass guys were legitimately, we're legitimately injuring themselves and those around them, and like not that that's good. I I actually and this is I probably said this

before in the show. I like hate pranks, Like I really hate pranks exceptually, and I think like pranks just are like this really weird. I would say male agrow form of communication that is like it's like kind of ah into attacking somebody physically. It's like pranks are almost a way that men have figured out to attack someone physically, but like you forced them to laugh about it, which

is like a really fucked up thing. You know. It's like like if I like open a door and something hit me in the face, like my first reaction is like that's painful and upsetting and scary and surprising and all of these things that I don't like. But with a prank, you're supposed to be like, oh you got me, Like, oh you broke you broke my nose and I'm going

to the hospital. But it was worth it for the video. Anyhow, we're a little bit off topic, but so Mr Beast is a huge, huge internet celebrate, let's call it for a bit lack of a better term. But you cover people all the time. This is I actually had a point there's I was actually going somewhere. You cover people all the time who are not that they're like this mid tier maybe even lower tier, like this article about haters, which I want to talk about, like in more detail.

But but these are not people who are making like Mr. Beasts made like seventy million dollars last year or something. He's like unfathomably wealthy from this, right, like the who are this sisters, the TikTok sisters, the Damelios, the Demelius, they make a ton of money, right, They're very exactly. Are the people who you're covering like that are like

mid tier? Are they making a living? Yeah? I think that when we talk about mid tier people or maybe talking about like the kind of people that I interview for the stories, like people who make day in my Life videos where you know, they have a following of maybe even up to a million on TikTok or something, which honestly, in the context of the platform isn't really that much. But really, yeah, a million followers of TikTok

is not that much. I mean it is, And like, I think I know a lot of TikTokers with about that many followers who are making a great living like a k A. Like you know, they can support themselves

probably around six figures more maybe, but not everybody. You know, it totally depends they're producing content constantly, right, there's a content pustle to produce content, correct, and often they have like podcast deals and like you know, the kind of brand sponsorships where the job is really never ending and so is a big trade cuff obviously, But yeah, I'm lots more interested in these kind of people, like the middle class of online creators who you know, are are

still relatively normal or making like normal amounts of money, but they are kind of these many celebrities within this world and you know, they get stopped on the street pretty frequently because when you go viral on TikTok a few times, like people are going to know who you are.

And I'm really fascinated by that because it's completely different from the way that internet fame used to work, where you had to try really, really really hard to get big over a series of years, or you were a Rebecca Black where you had one thing that made you

inescapable and it was horrible and whatever. But I really am fascinated by these people who kind of stumble into online notoriety and kind of make a living out of this, even if they're not like a household name, someone like Mr Beast or Charlie Damelia, like people who still live relatively normal lives but are kind of celebrities. And I think it's a really fascinating economy. It's fascinating that we

have manufactured this economy, that this economy has arisen. I'm curious, like, you know, the things that people are triggered by, you know, for better or worse, Like do you ever think like I'm going to stop writing about this ship and just become like one of these people? Uh No, Because I talked to enough of them where I know how tough it is and how tough it is on them mentally. You know, their entire sense of self and self worth revolves around how their last video performed. And I've seen

it really destroy especially young kids. So I think I know better, like I knew you're grown up. You can handle it now you've got the mental equipment. Yeah, but I know myself enough to know that I like health insurance and that I like stability, and I like up steady paycheck. I'm not built for the freelance life. H And if I were to do the freelance life, I would probably view something like TikTok as like maybe a marketing tool for you know, books or whatever else I

want to make. I don't see it as up sustainable path to a really like great career. I know I don't know how old you are, and I'm not going to ask. Okay, okay, fine, So what are you a millennial? Yes? Do youre a millennial? Okay? Do you think that you're feeling is informed by your generation that you're from at all? No? Not at all. Actually, I'm very steadfast in the opinion that generations are fake and like everyone who is human is like, you know, going to make the same decision

with what they're given. But I also know that there's a lot of you know, gen Z workers who are so scared about like you know, stability and health insurance and things like that, Like they want it probably even more than I do. You know, like this is a luxury. I realized that to like not have to worry about to have a job. Yes, like having a job is a luxury. A job with health insurance and a job

with benefits and things like that. That's true. There's this dream of like cobbling together all these different like persona based revenue streams where it's like I'm just being myself and I'm making all this money. But I know more than you know they do how much work that is and how constant and just like how much it completely destroys any other sense of self that you had beyond your brand and your fame and your persona. And I

would never wish that on myself or anybody. Yeah, it's like you've seen the horrors of this industry you're actually turned off by You're not like this is cool and exciting. I should do this instead of being a dumb journalist you know now that you're a dumb journalist. I mean, just the job is. I'm not saying I don't want to be like a visible like success in my field or whatever. But I think anyone with a brain knows that the best part of like fame is the money

and not the fame. The applause you've got is great, but like the fame part of it, like that is gross and weird and bad. M wow, Okay, you've not been tempted to become Mrs Beast or whatever Miss Beast? Yeah? Absolutely not. Is Mr Beast married? Does he have kids? Like? What's his deal? Like, how he's got the He's like, oh really? Yeah? I feel like I saw a picture of Mr. Beast and he looked like he was in his forties. He does look a bit older. I'm gonna

google this, right you how old? I say, he's like thirty eight? Yes, his age is twenty four. He's twenty four. He looks much older. God, what that sounds like a lie. I think he's lying. Now. That would be a great story. Can you investigate whether not Mr Beast is lying about

his age? By the way, I'm willing to guess if you did a story let's say you found out that Mr Beast is lying about his age and he's actually thirty three or something, which is very possible, by the way, Like we should not rule it out because celebrities lab about their age all the time. How much hate do you feel like you would get from the Mr beasts fan base for revealing his true age? Um, I don't know, and I don't really care because like, I don't know.

It's it's like, I hate to say it, but like I've been pretty lucky. Like I know that you're probably used to talking to women who have just had a horrible experiences online and like, oh women every wood. I mean, yeah, I have, but it's just like I think I've been

very lucky in that regard. And so yeah, when I've written like two articles on like Andrew Tate and people calling me like a con and you know, I should die whatever, Like I'm just like I don't care about that's fucking extreme though, that's crazy, But this is my point. You see here, you are You're like, I haven't had those experiences, but that's a very abnormal reaction to an

article you didn't like. Yeah, I know that like those people who like Andrew Tate are insane psycho so like, of course they're going to call me a coun I don't give a ship. It's true. Wow. But yeah, that's the first time to see where it has been podcast. But no, no, no, it's great. I we had just haven't had anybody uses. So I've been trying to cross as many as many swear words. I mean, I think it's a great word when used by girls and gaze to each other. But otherwise, no, I think that's fine.

I think if you want to take ownership of that and re contextualize that, that's fantastic. I mean the Andrew tap thing is funny. I mean, like it's not funny, but I do find it huzzling. Now, I'm not like a of your old or fourteen yre. I don't know who his followers are, but they're young, that's my understanding. Yeah, And I don't know what it's like to be a young like, but they're all boys, right, there's no other

girls girls who defend him, and I understand why. That's like a trad wife sort of perspective, right, that's sure. The term would be like a pick me, you know, someone who stands up for something that's like objectively anti feminist. There's a term for that, and it's picked me. You've never heard of a pick me girl? You mean pick me like? Pick me? Yeah, okay, No, I mean this is actually this particular piece of terminology I'm unfamiliar with.

Could you explain it a little bit? Oh my god, okay, we'll pick me is like that's that's the old slang, um isn't. Okay, well, you know, I'm very old. It's well, it's also used like today. But it's a girl who like goes against her own gender. Essentially, it's someone who says anti feminist things so that guys will like her. Okay, I've never heard the term pick me. I do understand what you mean. But maybe this is a thing that's

like girls know about more than boys do. I'm not really sure, but like there's a lot of those things, so you would use it in a derogatory way to describe someone, obviously you don't never never positive pick me girl is not cool. She's like a trader to women. That's what you're saying, basically, Okay, interesting, and so the girls that like entertainer pick me girls do trad wives fall into the pick me like sub Is they a

subset of the pick me girl? Or sure? I think they're more like anyone who uses the term trad wife is probably older than the kind of girl who would be called to pick me girl. You know I'm old? Okay, fine, what is the new term for a trad wife? No, it's not that like this is a new term. It's that like pick me is often a term used for women who are single and younger, whereas trad wife is more of a term used for women who are of

marrying age. Okay, okay, right, got it. Pick me girl could become a trad wife if she plays her cards right. You're saying you got it now? Huh? Is you're a post trad wife stage? And also is there a pre pick me stage? I'd like to know. Well, I think the post trade wife is just like mills, like divorced milf wife. Oh wow, this is the Pokemon evolution of this particular It's like all of the stages. Um okay, wow,

I feel like I've learned a lot here. But getting back to Andrew Tate, the majority of his fans are not pick me girls. The majority of his fans are young men who feel like I guess are they like proto in cells? Are are Andrew Tates fans like in cells and training? Is that the idea? I mean yeah, Like I don't want to imply that he's some like genius at getting little boys to pay attention to him,

because he's definitely not a genius, that's yeah. But it's like, I think the way sometimes some people talk about him is that he's like this huge danger to boys. And it's like they're of always always been these kind of guys, whether they're comedians or you know, politicians sometimes or whoever that like speak to these you know, twelve year old boys.

Once they get to an age where they're like, oh, I understand what feminism is, then they're like, oh, that's a threat to me personally with a boy, and I should be the one, you know, who everything is catered

to me. So I think like they target kids, or they happen to target kids that are in that kind of phase of life where they're starting to understand these kind of like sexual politics and they see them as a threat and they weaponize it against their female peers, who then you know, internalized them forever and whatever, and

the cycle goes on blah, yeah, blah blah blah blah. Indeed, actually it's funny you say that, but like in a way, it's almost like a It's like there's this spirit of completely shittiness that just travels through the ages, and he's just the latest avatar. There's just something in the human nature that we have to produce one of these, like for every generation, we have to produce genuinely, yes, it's true. Yeah, who is entertained like overtaken as the preeminent voice in

being a ship head man? Like well, when I was younger, it was Tucker Max who was like, oh, yeah, just vocal these girls or like the pickup artist guys ruche V or whatever. Isn't he one of these guys who that is ruche V. Maybe he's rue the twitch guy, he's like a pickup artist adjacent. Maybe he's like one of these pro rape guys or whatever, like whoever they are, Like, I don't know, isn't that what entertained is? And he

like take what you want or whatever. He would say that he's not, but then he's also said that, you know, some horrible things about like pro assaulting women and sexual assaulting women, So like we do not need to keep talking about entertained. No, we don't. Well you did write an explainer, Okay, well I had. It was in the news. I realized Jim bank Off, the CEO of Box called you up. Box Media said I needed we needn't explain her on this guy. It's like my son is. It's like,

did not happen? Do not happen? Like I need to understand what's going on? All right? Anyway, Well, I'm incredible ground recovering here today. I mean, honestly, I'm I think I'm learning so much. Sorry about haters. Can you set the stage a little bit, because I think it's a very interesting trend and I've noticed it in my own feeds. Yeah, I follow a lot of dumb meme accounts on Instagram, so that might be the reason. But explain the hater

trend a little bit, could you. Yeah. So basically, there's you know, kind of trend that's going around. I would say, like TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, the fun apps where people are just like, you know what, I'm a proud hater, you know, like everyone says the haters, I'm a hater, like and then I'm proud and you know, I'm spreading negativity, you know, spreading positivity and spreading activity. I follow meme accounting there like I'm in my hater phase or whatever, like hater era. Yeah,

villain villain and the hater era both used interchangeably. Yeah, okay, right, I got it right, And so I did a piece on how this is not necessarily it doesn't have anything to do with the idea of like mass harassment campaigns or hate groups, which are obviously very prevalent on the Internet. You know, it's there's a different, different kind of haters. Really, yes, like they're both haters in a way, but not the

hater that we're talking about. We're not talking about like hate crimes and like hate groups, right, I mean, like, okay, okay, are people confused that these things are the same, because I feel like I feel like you're talking about people who like make fun of things, which is like what these haters are posters? Yeah, yeah, like like making fun of stuff, Like I follow this account. It's mid century modern.

What the hell is it called. It's like an Instagram account that makes fun of like people who are into furniture y M C M wholesale. I believe it's what it's called I owned some of the furniture they talk about, and they're like, basically like people who are into this are stud bit and lame, you know, Like so they're like that they're not hate groups focused on like you know, destroying like an entire race of people or something. Correct, we're talking about hating like dumb pop culture ship or

like influencer stuff, and not like the Jews. Sorry, no, it's perfect, it's perfect. There's a real distinction. Feels so gross saying that. No, no, it's it's you can't say the Jews. It's really is problematic. It is really it's not like the words itself are not are not offensive. It's just there's hardly any context where they feel right.

And I say this as a Jewish person all the time, like, actually, I feel like I got called out on the podcast recently some peoples like, oh really the Jews, okay, anyhow, not to get off topic, but so these people are just they're just disgruntled really more than any well I would say, yes, but also not really at the thing that they're talking about. But I think what really this is a pushback against is this idea that, like all

internet discourse has to be inherently positive. It's very much a pushback against like I mean, poptimism to use a really dated term, but like this idea that, like, you know, all YouTubers, even when they're really doing really shitty things, they're just spreading positivity according to them. Right when, like Logan Paul looked at that suicide, he was like, I'm just trying to spread positivity. Was it Logan Paul or Jake Paul? It was Logan Paul. I hate that. I

know that you have to know it. This is your whole beat. I don't know you didn't know it would be would be shocking. I guess they were kind of like a little bit proto and entertain guys kind of sure, I think, yeah, I think the Paul brothers were good, like pre Yeah, there's so many of these guys. Jordan Peterson whatever. Oh yeah, he's like an elder statesman of that kind of vibe, you know. Okay, Sorry, getting back to the haters. They're pushing back against poptimism, which is

like a term from the Six Dies. I feel like I know that was cool. I was a communications major, so I do know these words. You're doing a great job of communicating it's all paying off because I'm like, honestly, this is like just so much great information. So it's a reaction to people being nice, is what you're saying, No,

people saying they're being nice but not being kind. I guess it's kind of like, you know, what I would I would compare it to is like the idea that Southerners are nice but not kind and Northerners are kind but not nice. And I think that expression sounds right. I guess it means like people in the South seem like they're being nice, but they're actually rude or mean. I guess it's like more that there's a culture of

like pretending everything's fine and good. And I totally, like, I'm very a big fan of politeness, so I totally understand that culture. But I think there's a stereotype that New Yorkers, you know, are aren't very nice to your face, but like mean well, um, and the culture is more like, hey, let's bond over what we are complaining about, you know. I think that I think there's some truth to that.

I mean, I think that, but I think it's more like about time management than to be honest with you, Like I think it's New Yorkers don't really have time to like waste cycles on like pleasantries. You know. I think a lot of the time when a New Yorker is interacting with you, it's because they're in a hurry, basically, like I feel like, yeah, like, have you ever been at a coffee shop that's outside of New York? And I know I'm going to get a lot of hate mail for this, but have you waited in line at

a coffee shop in a non New York location? Yes? People are so slow at doing things, it's insane. Well it's their chatty and everybody's like taking their time, like they don't have anywhere to be or anything else to do, and it's it is like I kind of understand that the expression. And then I don't know, I haven't spent that much time in the South, But hold on, is

somebody refilling your glass off camera? Is it? No? Sorry, my boyfriend just got home from the gym, and it's like he refilled your glasses that current okay, but I feel like your glass was like low and then got it was like, well I do have a bottle of money. Okay, that's more. What I was getting to is how did you get more wine in yours? I guess, like, yeah, I guess if somebody refilling it off cameras suggest maybe I want to hear more about your boyfriend. But that's good.

He's working out, staying in shape. It's very important. We do have a gym in our building. Not to brag, but no, that's great. Wow, a gym in the building. Okay, really a one per center over here? Yeah, cancel me. Probably a dorman. I do have a doorman. Okay, Well, luck we've got a COVID deal. I'm not rich, it doesn't matter, luckily. You know you, like you said, you

don't feel like the haters can really do anything to you. Well, it's funny because I'm very, very bothered by like people who are normal saying something mean about me that that hurts deeply. People who are Andrew tape fans. I do not care what they say. So wait, when you say people who are normal, let's see, I'm trying to think

of what that category looks like. Like people who don't outwardly have like yeah, like you know, you look on their you know, Twitter profile or something, and they're not just like angrily tweeting at everyone that's their whole thing. You know. I say that's healthy, that's really well adjusted. So you're saying like, if a rational person says something mean, that is obviously very affecting to you. Yes, yes, absolutely, But do rational people ever say mean things to you online? Um?

I've had a couple and I remember them all really, Yes, I'm sorry. Could you cite one? Oh god? Um, well you did just claim to remember them, so I have to heah. I Actually there's been times where I've worded things pretty sloppily and people like rightfully called me out for it, and I and I always remember, like I still feel really guilty about that specifically, Could you tell

me one instance of this? Um, there was one time where I made a tweet about like how I really disliked the tone of certain Twitter conversations where people were like, remember to drink some water. And I was like, this feels so like infantilizing to me, Yeah, like condescending. Yeah, And all I said was that, like, oh, I would read like two thousand words on this tone, this particular

internet tone that you can really only find online. And someone said, hey, like I'm disabled and I need these reminders to take my medicine or something, and I didn't respond to that, but then a lot of other people found the tweet and then started like piling on. And then this one, you know, disability advocate who have like

I've read her writing, she's super cool. She was sort of like, you know, I don't think we should be piling on her for like a poorly worded tweet, and I was like, thank you for saying that, Like I really didn't mean anything by this at all, Like I, you know, have a d h D and like I would never assume that, like you know someone with different abilities, like you know that that's not what I was talking about.

That is the strange thing, though, isn't it Like there's always this tweet that goes around or some version of it where it's like you hold all this tension in your back, remember to like relax your shoulders. And I understand like there's an element to it where like people are just trying to be helpful, like hey, take care of yourself, but there is also like it does feel sometimes like if it hits you at the wrong moment or whatever, you're kind of like, look, I don't need

you to tell me to relax. It's like when somebody says, hey,

relax or whatever, you know. Like, for instance, like when I get into an argument with my mother, which is fairly often, um, she'll say in the middle of the argument, she'll say, calm down, yeah, And I've said to her, like I can't think of a worse thing to say to a person when they're like fired up about something, where you just are like completely like just flattening their all of their arguments with like your overreacting basically, And there's a little bit of a calm down sort of

nature to that, Like it's like I don't need you to tell me to drink water or whatever. There's that, but it's also just like this idea that like I'm going to cleanse your timeline with a photo of my dog. It's like, I don't come on Twitter to see a photo of your dog if I did have a separate Twitter account of just dog photos, or I could just

google dog. But I get it. That's sort of an inside voice kind of thing, right, like like you to yourself, you would like to the person to post the dog you and be like I don't want to see your dog, Okay, I have more important ever say that, because obviously, I'll look at a picture like I like dogs. I'll be like, that's cute, like this idea that they're doing you a

favor by like tweeting. It's like you, I do think it is on the same level as you're like, here's a dog to cleanse your timeline, and you're like, I find it annoying that you posted a picture of your dog or whatever, like it's sort of like the water fil But I when I want to cleanse my timeline, I want ship posts. I want disgusting memes that are really like unintelligible, like weird memes, Like I don't know, you want memes, unintelligible memes that are disgusting to cleanse

your timeline. Yes, I mean I get that. I do understand that. I'll sometimes I'll have to unfollow a meme account. Not they use like particularly graphic images where they just have the images are just too weird for me, Like I'm just like this is too upsetting, Like I'm not sure what's going on happened to me? I'm sorry. Yeah, You're tolerance for it is probably a lot higher because you're a You're a millennial. Are you not a millennial? I'm wow, thank you that. It's really wonderful. If you

to say you think I'm a millennial, that's incredible. Millennials now are like people will be like, I'm fifty and I'm a millennial. That person is not a millennial. Fifty year olds are not. There are psychos out there. They're like, I'm actually like an elder millennial, Like, no, you're just not Imber the other one. I'm a member of the Greatest Generation, also known as Janet jene X. The greatest generation,

I believe is like my grandfather's generation. But I'm like taking that because I think gen X has just not gotten the credit it deserves. Although there's some horrible gen extras too, So it's really, like you said, all these generations are made up for marketing purposes, so it's really

not worth discussing. Getting back really quickly to the thing you said about when you were a hater to the person who was telling people to drink water, it is interesting how quickly we can go on the Internet from your relatively innocuous statement, which like you did you actually even tweet to the person, Like did you retweet them or something? No, it wasn't really about one specific tweet rights an idea. It was just sort of like this tone.

But I think what I was, what I was saying was that, like, you know, the thing that kind of stuck with me is that, you know, this person who agreed with the people who were mad at me, but also like could see my point of view, like they were sticking up for me in a way, but they were also like, you know, she worded it clumsily, and I was like, damn, okay, maybe I did word that clumsily. But then when I apologize, I was like, thank you for saying that. I really didn't mean it that way.

Then I got even more hate from like people who were like, of course she's using her own disability in order to likeelf from ablesm accusation. But here's the thing, like what you said, I mean, I don't know how you worded it, but it doesn't sound to me like it could have been targeting people with disabilities. Was it

targeting people with disabilities? Where you like, no, it was about this certain tone that used on Twitter where it's like it's literally the same tone as like cleansing your timeline with a picture of a dog, Like it's just it's a condescending. It's a condescending tone. It's condescending, it's infantilizing, and it's also presumptuous. And here you are doubling down on your cancelable statement. But here's the thing that I find so fascinating, which is like, there's always well, I

will describe them as a Debbi downer. Laura and I talked about this all the time. There's always someone like, no matter what the news is, no matter what the tweet is. Like I say this like a lot about Like it's like the person who's like complains about needing a new wallet after finding out they hit the lottery

or whatever. It's sort of on the spectrum of that sense of it's like you could say anything, you like, it's my birthday, and then somebody like you know ten replies down and be like some of us don't have birthdays or whatever. You don't like You're like, I don't like. I don't know how to address that, but it is

weird to me. And I think probably one of the greatest signs that Twitter should have never been invented and should be destroyed that you can think something and then you tweet it, because that's how it works, right, you go, I have this thought and then you put it out into the world, and then immediately another person can think

something and tweet it back to you. The way you describe the situation that spiraled into like we have to cancel Rebecca Jenny, like right, like it spiraled into a cancelation situation for you basically where like a mob of people were like really mad at you for being ablest I think is what I'm hearing, which is definitely not the initial intention. And I'm not trying to be like I'm not like Joe Rogan or anything like, I'm not

trying to be like cancel culture. I'm just seeing it's sucking insane that that we can have an exchange like that, and I'm not sure that that's healthy. Like you must see this all the time. It's I mean, I'm surprised that you seem as healthy as you seem, because, like you said, like it's kind of rough out there. But do you ever think like I gotta get out of this, like I gotta stop first, Um No, I don't. I What I see, honestly is the beauty and the breadth

of the human experience. I'm genuinely serious, like No, that's like I like, I feel like half the time what's weird is like seeing all of TikTok try to shunt themselves into one or more like very specific categories, whether it's like a self diagnosis or just like a label of some kind, and then the rest of the Internet is just like showing me how how vast the human experience really is. And so I think I'd like to exist at a happy medium between those two things. Wow.

I mean I had to tell you I had like a lot of other questions. We're not going to get to all of them, and in fact, like maybe we should just end with therapies. I know now I want to know the other questions. Oh my god, Well, I mean they were all you know, No, we I want you had to tweet about I want to talk about bootcut jeans is what? Or bootcut pants is what. I

feel like you tweeted about bootcut? Did you not tweet about I was just looking through Twitter and I was thinking about how much I hate bootcut anything, and I think you were like, you're into bootcut or whatever and more than anything where it was me. Maybe you retweeted somebody who was saying about bootcut bootut pants. When was this? I don't know. I just make that up, I think so. I'm just trying to you think you have low rise jeans? Oh, low rise that's what it was. Yes, yeah, No, low

rise jeans are back, That's what it was. Low rise jeans are ones that are very very low below the waist. Is that the idea? Yeah? Also horrible? Also horrible for for people generally speaking? Okay, how do you feel about boot cut jeans? In that case? Since we're on the topic, UM, I pretty much only wear either like wide leg or like kind of many flares. Um, many flares. That's like a kind of a boot cut, like a crop flare.

What is a crop flare? It's like one that hits just above your ankle bone and like flares out a little bit. Is this making the second time I brought this up recently? I'm very upset about the rise of any boot cut stuff coming back into fashion. Crop flare so wrong about boot cut. I feel like that's a timeless style. I don't know, I don't know. I actually the reason I asked about your your fashion blog, which you didn't want to talk about an issue, you can

talk about it. I'd love to promo it. No, because you have a Yeah, because you have an article which is everybody's dressing like me? Yeah. And I noticed that you have a picture of yourself which is a Getty photo from two thousand eleven, and it's some kind of fashion event and you're wearing a hat, which is a very strong Do you wear hats a lot? I am a hat person? You have perhaps every day in the

fall slash winter. Not everybody's a hat person, And it is a bold and strong statement to be a hat person. I just want to at person and a banks person, which as a lady, that makes me almost a unicorn. But like, isn't that Like then you can when you have a when you decide to have a a huge shift in your in your fashion situation, you can just cut your bangs and stop wearing hats, and then it's a whole new world for you. Well, the thing is, I do not ever shift my fashion. I've dressed the

same way for the last decade plus. So do you have photographic evidence of that? Could you produce, for instance, a decade of photos of you dressing exactly the same? Yes? Okay, great, I'd like to you should blog about that. What was the trend that people are dressing like you what is that? What do you call that? So basically, like every time colder weather comes around, and then in the Northeast, I always forget that this was like not relatable for people

that don't live in this one specific area. So I'm sorry, but this is You're gonna get canceled for this because you're so like Vermont centric or New York Australian seasonal time so offensive. Basically, every time like the fall comes around, people start wearing sort of like back to school clothes. And my kind of uniform for you know, since I was in college maybe a little bit before, has always been you know, tights, miniskirt, turtleneck, beret for or we'll

coach little little loafers. I've wren that, you know, since I was nineteen, and I wear it now at thirty. Is this like an Emily in Paris outfit? I've seen maybe one episode of Emily in Paris, but I feel like she would dress more interesting than that. I've never

watched the show, so I don't know. It just feels right to me to say that, Well, sure, like the beret, yeah, but like I'm not saying that my style is unique at all, and I in fact say it's quite basic, but it's every girl dresses this way once this first like October early November wave of fall dressing comes around, and especially this year. Um and and you know, like that's kind of how trends work. They go in and

out and that's totally fine. The best way to be, I would argue, is to just kind of have a style that you really love and works for you, regardless of what's trendy at the time. And you can kind of add elements of the trendiness if you want and take away what you don't want. But yeah, in general, that's kind of how I dress. But every fall it's sort of this kind of thing again, So I just I wrote about what that's like. Well, I have to say, I think admitting that you dress in a basic way

is is bold and powerful. Okay. I did have one thing that I wanted to ask about, which we sort of touched on here and there. But and then and then you got to go because it's getting close to bar time for you, although it's obviously bar time at home right now. Um. Not judgment, not judgment, more like jealousy than anything to be honest with you, just me

desperate to have an alcoholic beverage. Um, this is kind of a blanket, large question, and I hope that I hope that it doesn't trouble you too much to answer it even a little bit. Do you believe and I'm only I'm only asking this because it's sort of wish with thinking on my part. Do you believe that social media could be dying? Um? No, I don't really. You don't think that we're about to see the end of

social media as we know it. Maybe as we know it, but I don't think that like being social on the Internet is going to die ever, because that's kind of what we're talking about. It's like, I think the formats might change, for sure. I think, you know, the hegemony of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, which is the same, TikTok whatever, YouTube could be totally challenged by god knows what, but I think they will. There will always be, you know, people conversing and being weird on the Internet, and I

think that's great. It's a beautiful answer, actually very optimistic. I'm sort of personally hoping that the social media dies because it's I feel like it's very unhealthy for people. I mean, maybe maybe the future is like there's just be a really healthy social media platform. I think Taylor and I talked about this. That's totally a possibility, you know.

I think the problem is that most of these platforms are extremely, extremely huge and unwieldy, and you know, my number one philosophy of the Internet is that like, once you get a certain number of people in the same room, it's just going to be Lord of the flies, and like that's just what's gonna happen. So you have, like, if you're going to be you know, a good social media platform, you have to find ways to prevent that

from happening. And you know, no one's found a perfect answer, right right, Okay, really we'll ask question final question, Are you being real or no? Yeah, I'm gonna be real. I think it's really fun you do. And it's like I have, like, you know, twenty friends on there, but it's fun. I've resisted. I I don't know. I it's like,

I don't know, you got to manage another thing. It's like take a picture, doesn't it feel like the pressure is so it's actually like it's it's such a funny thing because like the people who are on it like if you're with someone who's also on be Real and you get the notification, you're like, oh my god, we can just take a little picture. It's it's honestly not a burden. It's more of just like if you're in the mood to do it and you get the notification to it, and you can see what other people are

up to do and then react to them. It's silly. It's fun. I feel like, might be real would be just be me in the same room every day, is it. Do you have anybody who's like that, Oh my god, that's so many people. But honestly, like you just don't have to take one every day, you know, Like if you know, if it hits me at like two pm on a Wednesday and I'm saying up on my computer and my cat is not you know, in the immediate facility, I just won't take one. And that's fine. Is anybody

that you know monetizing there be real presence? No? Be real? It's like you have to be mutual is in order to see content at all? So yeah, okay, all right, you've possibly convinced I should begin my journey of being real. It's only good if you have other people that you know in real life who are on it. Otherwise, who cares? I don't know anybody in real life. That's some done.

I don't do that anymore. I don't have those kinds of connections, So unfortunately for me, I will not be real I guess maybe that's why you find social media so depressing. I don't know. Maybe we're back at This was absolutely fascinating and so interesting. Thank you very much for coming on. And there are many more things that you and I could and should talk about, so you'll have to come back. Great. I'll have even more wine

next time. So, oh my god, I will have wine next time as I should have had this time, like a like a proper host. Well, that is our show for this week. We actually had so much to talk about. There were so many influential figures to discuss and so many mysteries to unlock that we don't even have time for an ending amble and end amble. I don't know what is the it's a preamble. I guess a post ample is what it would be. There will be no post amble. This is the post ample. An Yeah, that

is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more what future and as always I wish you and your family the very past