Oppenheimerverse with Nick Rutherford

Hey, and welcome to What Future.

I'm your host, Josh Wazapolski, and today I got to say we've got a banger of an episode. I'm very excited about it. In fact, it's such a great conversation that I don't even want to waste time telling you about how great it's going to be. I don't want to sit here and ramble, because you should just listen to it.

You should just hear it.

I had the rare and wonderful opportunity to talk to the actor, comedian, writer Nicholas Rutherford Nick Rutherford if you want to, If you want to go by his more casual name, he's an executive producer. I'm Rick and Morty and a super smart, funny guy. And we had a killer conversation and I want to get right into it, So let's go Rutherford. Am I saying that right? Your

But are you a Patriot? That's what I'd like to know.

Oh, I mean, I think I'm the best type of patriot at patriot who holds his country's feet to the fire. Yeah, you know, patriot who asked the questions that a lot of patriots don't like. For instance, Yeah, for instance, what is arbor Day?

Yeah? What is arbor Day?

I think that's a solebration of trees, right, Okay, yeah, I assume so. But I mean arbor is like, are like, that's a tree thing.

Yeah. I think if you're like an arbor rist, you're a tree scientist.

Yeah, let's look at them. What is arbor Day?

So it's tree Day? So isn't it's an Earth Day, doesn't covered trees.

It's a secular day of observance which individuals and groups are encouraged to plant trees.

Is it a national holiday? Might be? Yeah, it's national arbor Day.

It's not a government holiday. We don't get work offs right now.

They don't give you off for it.

They don't give you don't give you a day off to plant a tree. That would be That's the kind of thing that Republicans talk about as like the end state of liberals. Of what liberals want is they're going to stop you from working so you can go out and plant a tree. That's like a that's like a conservative nightmare scenario.

You know, you don't get worse worst case the.

Worst scenarios you have to like forced to take off work and go plant a tree by you know, liberals anyhow. Yeah, Also, we don't have to talk about politics. I don't even know how. I guess because I asked you you're if you're a patriot. That was a huge miss Yeah, huge missed up on my part. But now you led it there pretty quickly.

Yeah, I did.

That's my fucking that's my fault. Are you a very political person? Do you feel politically minded?

Totally motivated?

I think as I get a bit older, I get a little more politically involved. I like to be politically involved on a local level. I think that's kind of what's missing, like in your house. Yeah, those neighborhood councils, right.

Are you on aunt? Are you on a city council or somebody honest neighborhood?

Oh no, but I thought I wanted to be. I wanted to get on my neighborhood council. And then I pitched that idea to somebody a friend, and they were like, absolutely, do not do that. It'll just it's it's still suck your life away, which is a bummer. You know that those jobs should be those positions should be fun desirable.

Yeah, no, no, no, for sure.

Uh like local getting involved in local government or local like neighborhood sort of stuff is for a certain type of individual, which is why you you end up with a lot of really old people doing it, because it is a huge time sock, I believe, And it's kind of like the work is not very rewarding in a lot of ways, and I don't think they even pay or they pay very little. Yeah, my wife opened a bookstore in our town, and I mean I helped a little bit, but.

It's really hers.

And what did you do?

Well?

I built the shelves and I picked the wallpaper. And she's become like a member of whatever the business you know, the.

Business alliance. Yeah, yeah, you know she has to go to meeting this Yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't sound fun, I guess, but she enjoys it because she likes she likes tedious shit, which is why we're married. And she's and she's elderly, she's she's also eighty five years old, and so that's really helpful, right for her she got a blody of time and nowhere to go.

Okay, So so you have an Emmy, is that right? Yeah?

Yeah, I do.

You worked on Rick and Morty.

Yeah, well I'm currently working on Rick and Morty. I mean not currently because we're on strike.

Oh right, well ha I.

We're going to get to the strike because there's a lot of talk about there. But first I want to I want to explore your your Emmy wins. How many Emmys do you have?

Well?

Now one and I have what I won one and I've lost one Emmy and I'm up for not me. The show's up for an Emmy, but I'm included in the ship one. I mean I got one. Yeah, as a as a as a producer. So I'm an EP. I'm executive producer on Rick and Morty. Now at the time, I was some lower producer, but I still made the cut, you.

Know, executive producer. That's pretty big deal.

That's a big that is uh, it's one of the big ones. And let me tell you it's it's just it's all it's all in a name.

You don't actually do anything.

No, no, I don't do anything. Yeah, no, no, you know, I watched cuts and we look at edits and I've written songs. You're a song producer. Now I'm a song producer.

Are you really?

Mm hmm. That's great because I like to put songs in my episodes and then I get it and like write him with the Ryan Elder, who's our composer. He does really all the hard musical lifting, and I just write silly lyrics and the melodies.

Right, that's the best. That's that's like, uh, that's led Zeppelin right there. It's like John Paul Jones was, I mean all the hard work, like you know, Jimmy Page is right in the riffs. And then Robert Plant was just like, I'm gonna write about Lord of the Rings. Is that cool? Like I'm gonna do a song about Lord of the Rings. I don't know if you know much about led zeppam they have several songs about Lord of the Rings.

Uh oh yeah, because like Lord of the Rings was kind of big for like metal, like rock and roll, right extra they were mystical guys.

I mean he you know Robert Plant, he talks about Golam in one of the uh and Gollum or whatever the guy's name is from Gollum. He references him by name and at least one song if not uh, and he talks about Mordor like specifically. It's actually really funny when you think about it, like, uh, like you would hear a song on the radio these days that just like specifically talking about.

Lord of the Rings, like characters and Lord of the Rings.

It's like a band today, did it did a song about like the Rings of Power on amzok? Yeah?

Right, there's no history of this yet. When you think about led Zeppan though, they were like so sexy. People were like these fuck, I'll fuck these guys no matter what, Like how do I get to them? I want to have sex with Robert Planting And meanwhile he's like on stage literally fucking singing about the biggest nerd shit that it's the hugest turn off for most people, like literally

That was a time too in nerdship was nerd shit like nerd yeah, feet up, no.

No, no, this was like in the seventies, like like Lord of the Rings was not cool in the seventies, like like, I mean, I'm not even sure it's cool now, Like, to be honest.

With you, it's just like it's become popular enough. But yeah, very strange.

Anyhow, Uh so we were talking at the fuck were we? Oh your Emmys? Okay, so we're talking about you writing songs in order to get Emmys.

Uh. You don't get Emmys for songwriting though, do you?

No?

But I want to That did great, they get a Grammy. But so when Ricky Marty won one year, it was a zoom Emmys. It was like the pandemic Emmys.

Oh that sucks. I'm sorry.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's I mean, congratulations but no. But yeah it's also great, right.

I mean you still got the Emmys.

Okay, yemmy.

Yeah.

It to my house months later and I had to watch it on a laptop screen. But the day of the Emmys, I was actually recording a podcast with my friend Nick Turner. Oh my god, who was like, well, all we're going to do is we're going to go metal detecting at the beach and I was like that should be fine. We should be done by the time the Emmys start. And we were metal detecting and I texted one of the other producers like, hey, so, what time do the Emmys start, and like when are we up?

Actually, like we got to fill time, like just everybody record. We don't know who's gonna win. Everybody record up. We need speech though, and then we'll just show them all.

Well that's I mean, they somebody has access to all of these videos. Everybody had to record a speech Academy.

They couldn't cut. They couldn't cut live to to Dan like speaking.

That would have been way more fun. It was pre recorded. Yeah, it was probably a live host, but you know, I mean it was, but anyway, it was not. It wasn't as glamorous of an event as you would hope.

So you haven't won an Emmy in person, that's what you're saying.

I lost an Emmy in person, though, is it not the same? Who did you lose to? The animation category is odd? So we lost to an hour long Netflix anime drama. Oh that is like all cgi and it's very pretty, but it's a drama. It's like, how do you put like a very nihilistic comedy, half hour comedy against an hour long drama.

You know?

And so this year, so we lost, and we was very upsetting. And this year we're also up against Netflix again. The Netflix show quote unquote is a full feature length animated movie, which is not even a show. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I should know.

A hit or miss over there. You never know, it could be one of the bad ones. Maybe you've got a good chance. Maybe they maybe they're nominating shit. You know, that does seem unfair, Like why put a show against the movie?

First off?

That feels like I think the animation category is mature enough that you could have like subcategories, right, you could have like there should be animated comedy, you could have animated drama. You could do like, Yeah, I feel like movies and shows should not go against each other. I think that's like a totally weird I think it's the very least you'd separate those out.

You know, I don't want to be a you know, right, it's fun, but you want that I want that Emmy, of course. Yeah, what's better than one Emmy? Two Emmys? But we're also in the we're in the Creative Arts Emmys, oh, which is like the week before the televised big fun Emmys.

It's fucking that's so wild, Like they're not even like that you guys get to be part of like the regular Emmys.

You guys are like a special effect. Is that the idea you're like sound design, that's.

Exactly right, it's exactly right. We're like sound engineers and stuff, and all these are critical jobs. I'm not poopoing these.

Jobs, no, but it's just it's just like you're creating a TV show as much as anybody else's.

It just happens to be animated.

Yeah, right, And it's like you know, it's always against Simpsons and Bob's Burger. It's all these legacy shows, right, and it's it's in between like best Animal Handler.

Right, in a way, there's an argument, there is an argument that should those shows just be in the regular category, not even animated, like just the quality of the show. Who cares about the format? I mean, who cares about whether it's a drawn these people are drawn? Or I mean, I don't know, that's a tough That would be tough though, right, because then you'd be up against like a better call Saul. Yeah, I'm sure, well no, because that's isn't that an hour

I know nothing about it.

Everything I'm talking about the animated categories is there. The category is just anything that's drawma. Yeah, well see, I know. I guess I have been out of touch with the m is.

I actually think.

Award shows are should be banned. I think they're bad for society. But I'm glad that you won an Emmy. I'm very I'm happy for you, But I also think that the fundamental idea of the Emmy is bad.

For weren't they initially went the oscars at least initially like a union busting thing.

That sounds right to me.

Maybe we should know this right now because we're at a critical juncture. I'm sure for you have probably several unions that you're striking with right now.

Right Yeah, I'm striking with sag After and WJA, I'm double striking.

Do you are you all on one picket line or do you google across town like to another picket line for the like the actors.

Now, they it's all it's all mixed. It's like a big mixer. And it was nice when the acting when zag got involved, because they brought a lot of energy to the picket line. But they also love the sag After a crew really loves doing picket line karaoke. Who and I feel like we should be a little more stoic out there.

No, no, nothing. Nobody should be seemingly having fun. It should be.

People should be they've made it a party.

Yeah, I mean in a way, I mean, I know it is very wrong for whoever cut back those trees to not provide shade for people. But in a way, I think sweating in the heat with your picket sign shows the struggle. You know, it makes the struggle look more. But we're willing to will fight. Yeah you don't. I

Want to look like a dust bowl like food line.

Yeah, I would, if anything, I would have to get those actors dressing up.

They probably have costumes laying around. I would assume.

Absolutely, like they should all be in like nineteen twenties, like fucking Woody Guthrie shit like out there.

Right, like patch elbows on their peers and.

The fucking thing like their their picket sign should be on that whatever those things are that are batable.

What are they called.

It's a bindle, the like a little handkerchief filled with yeah you're good, yeah for a train jumping.

Yeah.

I think I think they're missing opunity all about this you toodle podcast, right, I figure. I think I think they're missing an opportunity to actually uh engage in their craft in a way like, don't go out there and sing fucking songs. Go out and pretend to be a nineteen twenties striker, you know, cover yourself an oil or something and.

Be like, rather, can't you spare a dime?

Yeah?

Yes, you know, I mean it is.

It is tough because like obviously there's these huge strikes going on, and clearly, I mean from my money, and I'm not an expert on anything, but seems like the studios are in the wrong here on a bunch of different levels. And it feels like some of the some of the gives that are required would in no way damage their actual businesses in any meaningful manner.

It seems that way, you know, at least infographics.

I see, I see all that shit, and it's like, oh, this would be like less than one percent of their total profit to like fix these problems or some shit like that.

Yeah, yeah, it's like nothing.

I mean, you know writers and actors. That sounds like a luxury gig. I think there's a there is a thing that happens with the creative arts. Obviously it provides a huge amount of things to the rest of society. But also, like these are real jobs. Not everybody is like Brad Pitt, Like there are people who just have like day jobs. They have the bike, like fucking less

Yeah. I think that the consensus is like, oh, you've been on TV once, you're a millionaire. Yeah, and that is far far from the truth.

I mean when I was a kid, I used to think if you were on TV, it was like you were famous, like you had made it.

Like if you went on too.

I think it might have been more like that. Well a there was like four shows on TV, four channels, four shows, yeah, and they just played constantly. But now with the streamers everything, I mean, these these points have been poured over many times and I'm not going to do any favors to them. So I think now it's the market is so flooded and there's so many things, and there's new media contracts and there's streaming contracts right right, and it's so the pay has gone down and residuals

It's probably like not that big of a deal. I mean, it's always like this. I mean, this has happened, you know in media, like in news media. It was like when Google started. But he was like, hm, that could be a problem. They were like this is a cute little thing that the nerds are messing around with. Like hey, YouTube, that's not a problem. That's not a threat to us, right.

The fat cats at the top they what's going on?

Yeah, Like, I mean, you know, it's like hard to imagine going like, well, I think Disney is getting a raw deal here, you know, Like that's like I don't think that's an Netflix.

We gotta hey, come on, we gotta help Netflix out.

Man. They're really struggle subscriber bases down.

Yeah, I mean, but the thing is, you know, it's tough because it's creative, and like anything creative, people are basically like there's no value attached to it in a weird way, like, yes, you love to go see movies, but like when you really think about like the people who make the movie.

You kind of don't give a shit. Like most people kind of don't give a shit.

They don't think it's like toiling in a factory, and it is not to some extent, although plenty of those jobs are really hard labor, and like I'm not saying an actor's job is like, you know, building a fucking ac in it in a factory, but like it's it's I think there's this interesting disconnect I feel sort of happening now where like the strike's going on so long that people I can almost see. I don't think people's

I mean it's tough. I'm really curious what you think the temperature is of the public perception outside of the entertainment industry, because it's tough being within it. Yeah, you know, my echo chamber is just like why won't they just give up one point six percent of their like end of the line propuit fits and to satisfy everybody? Yeah, but I wonder, like the are the average strange or things? Fan? Are they just like, what's when's the next season coming? Get back to work?

One hundred percent. They're not. They're not.

I don't think they consider it. I don't think they're like, hey, what happened? But then when does the I guess that's

Oh absolutely, And also like probably not supposed to promote it. I think that I think Barbie came out pre SAG strike. I don't remember for sure, but like you know, Margot, Robbie and Gosling are going to go out and promote the movie of course, right, but it is a weird thing. It's a hard thing to celebrate this great film when we're also fighting for viable existences and trying to like pave a path forward for other people to enter this industry.

And all the industries that are attached to like making this stuff presumably are getting eviscerated right now.

Right absolutely, But I mean to the other side, it's an absolute, necessary, critical strike, and I do like that it feels like we're part of a larger labor movement now and standing up against these like big giant conglomerates and being and doing so successfully, you know, they had the ups strike, which is like settled in a day. Yeah, I think there's like a like airline attendance are now

You know.

It's funny, like I come from a family of like socialists, like Jews.

Like my great aunt was like a labor organizer.

You know. They were like, oh that's cool, you know she had like lunch with Trotsky, but she was like, you know, like they moved from like Ukraine to Pittsburgh and was like, you know, helped to start like a you know space, like a socialist labor group whatever. So like I get like, I get this, and it's easy interesting because like it is there's a there is a bit of a frame in America for sure, especially in America that like unions are evil and unions are bad.

How do you ever balance it? And the only way that anybody has to balance.

It is like is collective action now because it's because they are these corporations are so massive and have so much power and so much money that it's impossible to to really, like on a one to one level, affect anything that they do. And like I think it's amazing, Like I love the fact that people are I don't love the people are striking, Like people shouldn't have to strike.

But right, yeah, the ups that's.

Interesting, you basically was interesting, like and picketting is exciting. You know, it's fun. I don't know, it feels really fun to be a part and that's such a pervilect thing to say, Oh, it's fun to be a part of a labor right now or a labor movement. But I mean, like you see people activating on the street, you run into all these old friends, everybody's walking in the miserable, miserable heat. It's a cool thing to be

Well, you know, but it's also part of this. I think there's this just overwhelming amount of content. Like I just think there was a time when, I mean, when the Stranger Things began, there actually were not that many shows being produced by Netflix, you know, like it I mean, I don't know how many years ago it was, but it was, you know a handful of things were coming out of Netflix, not like a new show every day.

The other thing that's happening, which is really wild and disheartening is and it's basically legal insurance fraud. So this guy's Zaslov, who is like now the CEO of Warner Brothers Warner Universal, which is basically owns everything everybody loves. So what they're doing just to like clear their bottom line and look better is they are taking existing shows that are available to stream and they're erasing them from existence.

What's it called.

It's called Dream Corp LLC, which was this hybrid animation live action really beautiful show. But that's one example, and it famously happened with Batgirl.

Yeah, Bi Thata Girl's crazy.

They made an entire movie that would be like in a large part of a franchise or whatever.

And then just wiped it and then they get back a fraction of their budget and then they go, look see here we go. And that's disheartening. Like you know how many actors were in that and writers and creak guys were like, I'm going to be a part of this huge thing. There's definitely gonna be a Bad Girl too.

Yeah, it's crazy and Michael, I think Michael Keaton's in it, Like yeah, I mean it probably wouldn't be great, but like you know, like none of the DC movies seemed that good to me, but it's probably like would be fun to watch. And maybe that's I mean, maybe that's the problem though, I mean, look at what's going on out there, Like maybe we've got too much Bad Girl.

And so I was like, well, maybe this franchise thing is kind of over.

But but they do feel like more like works of art then a lot of stuff that's put out into the world these days, like a lot of these Like it feels like Disney's not just on this, like they just have to release more Marvel content.

It just feels like Marvel content or redo any animated film, live action.

Yeah, I mean that stuff is that stuff is so bizarre to me. Yeah, yeah, it's weird.

So I want to talk about Rick and Morty for a second. I have a couple of thoughts. How long and how long have you been working on the show?

Not from the beginning, not from the beginning. I came in like halfway through season four basically, okay, okay, and we're season six aired most recently, and sevens is going to come out eventually.

So so Rick and Morty is an interesting show in that when I started watching it, I was like, you know, crying, laughing, like I thought it was like one of the funniest things I'd ever seen, and I'm like, this is so fucking weird, Like it's a weird, weird show, and it only got I feel like, especially in the first you know, several of it. I don't think I've watched the last season, but I've watched everything up until that certainly got progressively

But that's like neither here nor there.

The thing that I find somewhat troubling about it is like I feel like it became very popular with people. I feel like they like it for reasons that are different than the ones I like it for.

Yes, do you understand what I'm saying?

And like, yeah, I do. There's a vocal minority fan base that's kind of in selly guys. Yeah, well because the you know, the protagonist Rick is this like nothing matters, get fucked up, have sex with everything, love isn't real. Like there's like an angry teenager in that character that people relate to.

Right, But it's sort of like a Rorshack, you know, from Watchmen, Like actually there's a meme that's like Roshack is my favorite superhero but like, yeah, you.

Know Roshack in the Watchman.

I don't know how familiar are with Watchmen, but you know, right, so you know, he's a really fucked up character, like really fucked up, and like all of the all the all the superheroes, it's like kind of like identifying with like the you know, like oh, like the comedian, he's awesome, Like identifying with a character that's obviously super fucked up and flawed, right, And it's I think like there's a difference between like laughing alongsider or experiencing that person's story versus like.

Being like I identify.

Is that what it is is like people these like guys identifying with like like Rick, is that I think so?

I mean I think so. I think it's like enabling you in a way, it's like, oh cool, I also hate everything and I'm pissed with my life, so right, like I'm going to get behind this guy. And you know, like there was a lot of pushback, like the first, you know, any show, it had a small writer's room at the beginning, and then like as it grew, they got a larger writer's room and they hired you know, a more diverse writer's room. And then the super like reddit fans were like, oh, they ruined it because a

If a girl writes an episode, it's automatically bad content.

Yeah, I mean no, Yeah.

It's like it's like it's sort of in a way like it kind of I don't say ruined the show for me, but there is an element where like I'm almost like, I don't it's like almost embarrassing to say you like it.

I'm sorry again, I don't want to.

It's a fucking great show and it's really smart and funny. I just want to be clear, like I think it's like really one.

Of the most unique shows.

It's ever been made, and yet the fandom of it has like can.

Be a turnoff.

Yeah, It's created this weird sort of tension even within me. I'm not saying like I can't be true to what I love or whatever, but there's like a yeah, I mean is there I mean, does that ever? How much does that come up like when you're working on it, Like, I'm curious because it feels to me like it would create a lot of self consciousness or maybe more self consciousness about like the kinds of jokes you put in or the way you write certain characters. I'm just curious, like, is that ever a topic?

Yeah? I think you know, everybody who writes on the show that I've worked with for now for plus seasons is like the funniest, smartest people. Everybody is. Everybody is on the right side of history, and it's it's certainly a consideration, you know. It's like, we want to be true to the show, we want to be true to the roots. It was a like, stick this big seed up your ass, Morty, and I'm going to mistreat I'm going to treat my grandson really badly because I want

Right, they always just trying to suck up everything for everything.

Yeah, so for they get For every one guy who's like, oh, I want to be like a Rick because he treats women badly, there's like thirty people who were like, oh, I think it's a fun, smart show that talks about you know, that's really a family sitcom at his heart, and.

That I mean, yeah, yeah, yes, it has the dynamic of a family sitcom with nothing that would ever work for a family, say coom in a way.

And then when I first watched it too the same I was like, I don't know you could do this on TV, like this is fun, Like okay.

Like I just want to be clear, like I love the show, and I think one of the things that I was always sort of I'm surprised by, and I can't remember what season, maybe it was even in the first season, like the arc of the season and the way they have at least several seasons ended is like quite emotional, like quite like dramatic in a way that

Work of art.

I just I wanted to ask about it because it's something that like I feel like I think fandom in general is really is really tricky lately, and I think that, like, yeah, it almost goes back going back to the let Zeppelin Lord of.

The Rigs thing, like it looks like good health.

Yeah, you know, like that was a time when, yeah, it to be into things that were nerdy was considered very uncool and it was very unpopular. And not to say that every nerd was awesome or whatever, but I think that it meant that those people, I think, found each other in a way that created real communities that were like communities about people sharing things they love together.

Yeah, exactly. Well, I mean the classic like Rick and Morty superfan is like, oh, like, oh I love Rick and Morty and someone's like, oh, I love Rick and Morty too, and then that super fans like no, but you don't get it, like I get it, like that it's a competition and who loves it the most, who really understands it, Like it's too deep for you? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't know where that comes from.

Look the whole thing.

And maybe Rick and Morty is a contributor to this, although I would say on the higher end, like I think we've all been like pretty heavily infantilized, like as adults, Like I think we've all like the Star Wars should go, Like Star Wars doesn't need to continue into like doesn't need to be a part of your life forever, Like it's possible that it could be a thing that you love as like a teenager or as a kid or whatever, and then like you move on to other two other forms of like entertainment.

Or you know, you know rich polassical music.

Yeah, I know, I don't fucking know, but like these are something beyond Star Wars. Like what if you never get out of Star Wars, but if you're stuck in the loop and you're like now you're seeing solo and you're like, well it's not that good, but like at

But now they do set up a sequel at the end. Yeah, there's a post credits scene where uh Nick Nick Frost, I don't know who's the guy where the agents and the fielder. Nick Fury comes over and like puts his hand on Oppenheimer's shoulder and he's like, we're very interested in the work you've done.

Oh my god, fucking I'm sorry, but I wish that Christopher Nolan had been could could not take himself too seriously to have done that, because it would be the greatest fucking thing that ever happened in film history. Like, I think you did a three hour movie about the creation of the atomic bomb that was super fucking serious, and then you had a post credits scene that like linked it to the Marvel universe.

I mean, amazing, God, we need to make that scene.

Like they should hire the actors just to film that scene.

Oh absolutely. I mean I think every movie, and the far they're detached from the Marvel Universe, the better, should end with Nick Fury coming in and saying, we want you to work for Shield.

I mean, it would have been just ultimate fucking synergy with Barbie and Oppenheimer's if they had come up with a post credit scene that somehow linked those universes together, Like if.

Nick Fury had maybe shown up in both movies.

I want to introduce you to Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Oh fuck god, oh man, this is now I'm understanding why you're into these creative fields. You've got great ideas, I mean, really good, Sead.

Just throw Fury and that's my pitch in the room. All the time.

Yeah, so you were you wrote for SNL for a little while, is that correct?

Yeah? I did one season on SNL.

One season.

Let's talk about But tell me about the horrific situation that led to your dismissal at SNL.

Can we talk about this?

So I wish I wish it was exciting.

Would you do to Lauren?

I didn't. I didn't do anything. Maybe I didn't drink the koolid enough, but I wish it was more exciting. It like, it was very it was unceremonial. I just my contract wasn't renewed and I found out like over the summer. It was like, yeah, you're not going back. And then they sent me. They sent me a giant box that had everything that was in my office.

Oh that's sufficient. It's nice that you guys they take the summer off to fire people.

They're like yeah, yeah.

Lauren was like, you know what I like to do is if everybody leaves and then we can just pick who we don't like and send them their shit.

That's smart.

Hey, then we talked shit about them behind their back.

I mean most businesses, you have to do it like you have to bring the person into like an HR conversation and then they like somebody escorts them out of the building like this is it's way cleaning to do it that way?

Yeah, you just doesn't bother What do you think?

What is it? Like?

You didn't have like a you didn't come up with like a character or something like somebody with a catchphrase like what is what do you think?

Like you Knowteria is?

It's been so far from it. I mean I didn't get a lot of stuff on the show. I don't know if the show really is my bag of humor, so my strengths I don't think really played to the show's strengths.

Like it's to mainstream too. Yeah, it's a little juvenile.

I probably I don't think I could talk about this well maybe.

I mean these are my words.

You're not here?

What are they gona they're gonna rehire you?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they probably won't invite me to the fiftieth anniversary party, which you know you want.

To go out. That's gonna be sick.

Yeah, I'm sure back to both Manning brothers at the fortieth anniversary party.

Uh okay, it took me a second because I'm not a sports guy. You're talking about there, but.

Peyton Manning is one, and then I want to.

Say, oh, you lie, I was gonna say like I was gonna say, like Chuck Manning. I wrote on the fortieth season. So it was a big year. Yeah, And then they had a big giant anniversary show where like Steve Martin, Bill Murray everybody came back and they like that week. They were like, hey, you guys are new writers, so you don't have to come in at all this week. And it was like, oh that sucks, Like okay, well thanks. They're like the best, best in the bridest, not you guys,

They bring back like old like old school like writers.

It was like the best of you know. It was fun, I mean. And but we did get to go to this huge gala that had everybody who's ever been on the show and he was live band Taylor Swift was there. I just say Taylor so because she's kind of important right now. She was very nice.

I hear she's great. I've heard she's nothing.

Nice, lovely. I was like, I lied, and I was like my girlfriend's a huge fan. Could I get a selfie with you? And she took us so she was like really nice. She took us stelfie and it was like kind of the lighting was kind of off and I was like, oh, this is like kind of bad. Do you mind if and she was like, oh no, you could fix it. Took my phone, went into the

That's I mean, they say she goes above and beyond. That really is something.

Yeah, I mean she she's a talent and she's like running the entire US economy right now. But so also that night, I all the writers and other and people who work on the show were like, well, we got to get drugs right right, I can talk about drugs on the show.

Yes, please do actually encourage it.

So I was in a rented tuxedo and I put in an order with a drug dealer.

My guy was named Rick when I lived in Brooklyn.

Oh yeah, well say his full name, say his full name.

I never got a full name. It's just Rick, just Rick Rick in my phone, Rick in person. I don't remember what Rick looked like, but he would show up. He'd show up when he needs to do.

Yeah, I mean, anyhow, so you put an order in, put an order in, collect a bunch of cash from everybody. The party was at some huge venue on like Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, and there's like this very famous intersection that's like probably Fifth in Park or something. So it's this huge there's like six lanes from every side, this huge intersection. Uh, I run. I come out of the venue. I got all the cash and gripping into my hand, and the guy was like kitty corner across and all

Yeah, but it's the streets of New York City, the cash caages, You're all reality? Was that rock bottom for you? Does that when you felt like you knew you had a problem?

Or I think it probably tickled me so much that I was like, I'm never changing this life.

Did you wait?

Did you get the cash? And did you get Ye got the cash? I got the drug and then you know, we continue to continue dancing black?

Did Taylor Swift?

No? No, I don't you know. No, you're not sure it makes that. But part of the reason I thought that that I thought all the old timers would be like, hey, we're back in thirty rockings. Time to like rid the rails again. It's been a while, So I thought like I'd be in like a bathroom stall with Bill Murray and like Gilda Radner. I guess she probably wasn't a love friend.

Yeah, in heaven at the bathroom stalling.

Heaven's kind of ruined our career, this, this podcast, our career are a joint career.

No, I don't think so. So.

So you're working on there's a new season Rick and Morty coming. You're executive producer.

That's very cool, Like, yeah, it's cool.

Is that like if I'm if I'm close enough friends with you, I could like voice a character on Rick and Morty, Like you can get me in there.

Like I'm not saying me, but if I were friends with you, Like.

Yeah, probably I've gotten my friend's voices voice jobs on the show for sure.

Yeah.

Kind of my favorite thing is to get my friend's work.

Have you thought about having like a guy who's like a kind of a Jewish like podcast, or guy who's from Pittsburgh like that as a character. It could be kind of an interesting Yeah, you don't have a lot of characters like that on Rick and Morton.

Don't we don't We had an episode had a podcast in it, so that ship may have sailed well, you know, I'm just not saying me. It's a person like that. You're casting a you're casting a wide net.

Though with Jewish podcasters, it's like every podcaster, every second podcaster is yeah, can you get Nick Fury in there? Like what happens if you want to do a Nick Fury thing on Rick and Morty? What happened to.

Positive Nick Fury has been on this show?

Really? Sure?

I think so? It sounds like we always kind of poop on Marvel on this show. I imagine he's been on there.

It sounds correct to me.

But I mean I was just thinking about your post credits concept and maybe there's a way to make that.

I mean, with animation, anything's possible.

Yeah, I mean there's like a there's like a fake Avengers on the show called Vindicators, and they did a spinoff show which was very good. So like our Marvel universe is it, but we reference Marvel a lot. Yeah, but like you know, Morty's a big fan of the Vindicators and that's basically Marvel. Yeah, I'll get theory in there. I would rather get Oppenheimer, and I think he probably has a better chance of making it in I.

Don't know why there's I mean the scene you described, there's no reason why that couldn't be put into the show wholesale.

Like I think that's.

I think it could deserly be a tag of it, which is also a post credit scene of Rick. Could definitely be an apropos of nothing.

Nothing get whatever.

The final scene of Oppenheimer is cut to the crew or whatever, I guess wouldn't be the final scene. It's just as you described it, just like he's sitting at a table, pondering what he's done.

I guess I assume it ends with him.

He's probably wrapping a he's wrapping like a belt over a ceiling fan, and he's setting up a little like a home depot bucket that he's standing on. Right, did he kill him in a knock at the door? No, but it's the scene he is.

Yeah, that sakes you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and yeah, right, there's a knock at the door. It opens, damn it. He's like put that rope down or whatever he's using.

I guess don't know, but that like, back around your trousers, mister Oppenheimer.

Right, we've got a job, got somewhere to be. Well, I'll listen. I think I would love to see it happen. I mean, now that you've said it, now that you've brought it into my sort of imagination, I'll be bummed if it doesn't happen.

Yeah, it would, I mean, you know what, maybe God see. But also, here's other thing. Now that we're talking about it, it's like, well, now we can't do it.

You can't do it because it's out there.

We have to cut this out of the show completely, and then it'd be I mean, I'm willing to do that if you actually can deliver on it.

I mean, if you could commit to me that you'll get the.

But also, we move pretty slow. You know, we're not South Park.

Yeah, by the time that's fucking airs Oppenheimer's in the old News. Yeah, you got to have a way to get for it to be relevant. Like with uh, it's going to be.

Exactly, we just don't move that fast. We're not that live. I mean, i'd like a nice topical thing, but I also really like an evergreen like this exists in its own world and isn't.

It's to do.

I feel like it's have to do ambitious animation on a fast turnaround. I mean, I guess AI I'll fix that right soon. Yeah, he'll just tell the AI what you want and it'll spit it out. But yeah, the CEOs will just put in what they want in the AI and then it'll just spit it out and they won't need anybody anymore.

I mean, I think I think it'll even be more than that, Josh, you will put in I want an episode of Rick and Morty where they meet Oppenheimer and Nick Fury, And also I'm in it and I'm a podcast host, yeah, and I'm the one who introduces them. And then you'll type that prompt into a laptop and it'll just spit out your own episode of Rick and Morty. I think that's where it's going. That sounds like it sucks so bad. I can't even describe how shitty that sounds. We actually had we ran, we ran the.

Episode last I think last week of we had the CEO of Scott David Hols, who's the CEO of mid Journey, which is the art one of the art ais, and uh, we definitely that we touched on that a little bit. But like I talked to the film critic David Denby, who I don't know if he still writes to The New Yorker, but I interviewed him many many years ago, and he described like we were talking about interactive cinema, and he was like, I kind of want movies to

The fuck.

I just don't believe that people actually will enjoy things that they think they want. I think I think a lot of people enjoy things because they aren't what they expected. And I think that being able to tell a machine, no matter how clever, it can be like the things you want to have happen, and then have them happen. It's like you kind of can't tickle yourself, you know.

Yeah, I can see that. I agree. I think it'll be like, look, it's the first AI completed movie, and we're all like, I probably won't see it, but people will be excited about it. But the pendulum will swing that way for a minute, and then it'll come back to like I kind of liked it when weirdos just were allowed to make art that we got to experience.

Yeah, I think, I don't know. I mean, maybe they'll be amazing.

Maybe maybe the AI will come up with with like much more clever ideas and they'll be much funnier than than we think. And I don't know, I mean, anything's possible, but I'm sort of like I expect that there'll be a lot of people's jobs who get screwed over in the process.

But yeah, I think you know, corporations are going to let it trickle down.

Yeah, that's probably true.

I mean because like it's probably easier to do a full AI podcast because you don't have to worry about visuals, So like, is that make you nervous? I know, this is kind of your big.

No any maker, not my main gig.

No no, because there are already you don't need AI. You already have the entirety of humanity producing garbage podcasts like you don't. And I mean, I say, this is like I may be a part of that. Like I'm not trying to tell you know, don't stoot my own horn or anything. There's already a This is sort of like the content thing that's like we already have too much. Like it's not the problem is not quantity, right, The

I have no fucking idea.

I think it's happening in like in my world, like in news and media stuff, like I think people are have been exhausted by like social media and like clickbait, and I think everybody's kind of like fatigued with this, like just the wanity of shit and you're kind of like, god, I'd love just one good thing.

It feels real, And I think that's why people get behind like oh white lotus. It's like, Okay, this is good, it's all I watch it collectively, this is nice.

Well we watched it, but then like ninety nine percent of other people didn't. I mean that's the thing.

It's like there's stuff that you you and I probably think being in our respective industries.

It's like, what is popular? You know it's popular? Is Yellowstone? Do you watch Yellowstone?

I haven't, and somebody's like it's been on right thirty years.

I've never massively popular. I mean it's like the most popular show. You've never seen an episode of it, and yet you've probably watched every episode of Succession and he thought it was amazing exactly, and you know it, no one else has watched it, Like one million people have watched Succession in the world.

Yeah, you know, we think it's important. We're coastal elites. You know we are exactly.

It's a show made by coastal elites about coastal elites for coastal elites.

And it worn't perfectly but I.

Think but you know, listen, it's very rare that anything is super fucking good and popular. Like there's only a few There's a Beyonce and the and Beatle, the Beatles, and like there.

All be everything?

Is that everything? Like a B movie?

Yeah, well that's another thing.

But you know, like, right, I think I think the film Life Force is high art, but to most people, most people don't even know it.

I don't even know what you're talking about you don't even know it?

Okay, Can I make a recommendation?

And I would like if you can get everybody who's associated with Brick and Morty to participate, Yeah, if they If everybody who's working on that has not seen the film Life Force. It is directed by Toby Hooper. It's based on a novel called The Space Vampires. It is written by Dan O'Bannon, who's the guy who created Alien, and it is one of the most insane and amazing films ever produced. And oh in the I believe, I believe the soundtrack is by Henry Mancini, So it's like,

I will watch it, but immediately and I bet you, I bet you people in the room have seen this movie.

I know I was gonna say, it's the kind of film that I would expect that people who are writing for Rick and Morty are pretty familiar with. It's a pretty obscure even amongst like sci fi weirdos. It's a seemingly kind of weirdly obscure thing. Sorry, I don't I just want to bring it up whenever possible because I think it's such a gem of a film.

Well, I want to ask you a question because you were talking about like podcasts and how there's a lot of podcasts. So I guess what I wanted to ask was, I guess what, what do you think is the worst podcast out there?

Well, that's I mean, I haven't heard it. I mean the worst podcast is as you haven't heard it, but like you know, I don't know, Like.

Uh, well, you don't have to answer this. I'm trying to put this.

I find like celebrities of the podcast be really annoying because it's like fuck you, like you already have your Like Dax Shepherd, it's so fucked up that Dak I have to compete, that we have to lowly ugly people like me have to compete with Dax sheperd Like, I'm sure he's a great guy by the way his podcast, No, he seems great and he's a wonderful he's wonderful and I'd love to have him on. In fact, let's let's see if we can get him on. I'd love to

A popular podcast and it's like a movie stars, right, I just think it's fucked up, like let us have let ugly people have something, you know, Like I think we don't get much these days, you know, like I understand that everyone's more accepting, but it's not right.

But worst podcast, I mean, that's a that's a tough one because it was probably like the Ben Shapiro Show or something.

Like, you know, like damaging our culture and sins.

Yeah, I mean, if you look at the top one hundred, there's all kinds of shit, like, you know, I don't know, it's like, you know, it's like the Chuck Bentley Show or something. You're like, who's Chuck Bentley. He's like, oh, he's a firebrand, maga preacher or whatever. And his his he has like twenty million subscribers to his podcast. Like Chuck Bentley's not a person as far as I know, but like it's that sort of right, that idea.

Yeah, there's something for everybody out there.

Man, I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I'd be honest with you, like.

Yeah, that's fair. What do you think takes the most time of your day? What do you what do you do?

It's been doing?

No, it's it's it's like, probably have a little problem solving things like that, right, you know. I used to do a lot of like actual writing, but it's I find it to be very annoying. I'm not a person who enjoys the time it takes to write down words.

Yeah, it's it. I mean, you're just banging in your head against a brick wall the hole. It's miserable. It's you're a loane, You're lost in your thoughts, you hate everything. It's miserable and magical at the same time. I do think I should maybe this goal. I don't have a goal this year to be published in New Yorker. I always thought that would be fun.

Oh you could do that online or in this actual magazinete.

I mean I'd like to have a physical copy, but I take what I can.

Get online is definitely easier. I mean you could start with online and see if they like it. We'll graduated into I feel like you could definitely get something published.

I don't what did the how do you? I know this podcast isn't about how to getublished in the n or but like no, well, but can it be for the last part.

The easiest thing is that somebody like me, like introduces to somebody there who I know, and I go like, oh, hey, this guy Nicky's super smart. He's one of the producers on Rick Morty. He wrote this really funny thing or whatever. Should check it out. I mean, you know, it's all about nepotism, and you know who you know and who you know they have, They take submissions, they publish like

No, I want special treatment.

You must have twenty people who know somebody there, like for.

Yuh, I'm sure there's avenues that I should explore. Also, here's the thing I'm never going to pursue this past this conversation. No, no, I don't know.

I mean you could do like a shouts and murmurs like a little, like.

A little It would be some silly thing, you know.

It's like a McSweeney's light kind of thing. Yeah, they do a lot of like less interesting than McSweeney's comedy humor rather, yeah.

Yeah, like real humor. I guess I should start by reading a New Yorker once.

You should see what's in there. Yeah, it's a comic, right, yeah.

No, I think it'd be a real twist for you is to go and find like an unbelievable journalistic story. Like you go to fucking like Somalia and like report on some incredible and like just you're like this guy, like your whole career has been like in comedy and writing and like give an Emmy for a fucking Rick and Morty. But then you go and like just report out the hardest, craziest fucking story ever.

Right, I like break the next Coney story.

Yeah yeah, and that's well Coney was fake.

I think that's turned out yeah, I think, but but yeah, you would crack that kind of case for the New Yorker, you know, or you write the story. They had a story about how I think it was a New Yorker. Maybe be in the Atlantic. There's like a fault line there that's gonna like make Seattle basically fall off the the country, like you like, there's gonna be an earthquake that will send Seattle out to sea or something, you know, or Washington, all of Washington.

I could dig into that. I feel like, whatever I do, if it's like hard hitting, you knowjournalism, I end it with Nick Fury showing up and asking Seattle to join the Avengers. And then people get to the end they're like, damn it, this asshole. He's got one idea.

I think, yeah, but it's a good one, you know what, one idea, but it's a good one. I wish you could have gotten to Christopher Nolan before he finished the film to tell him this idea, just like there is something we should If only you had that inception device, Yeah, you could have put him, put him under and got him put this idea in his head.

That's a dream.

Well, there's going to be a director's cut, so there's still time.

Somebody has to film the scene and like do a bootleg, like an edit, get Killian Murphy to just like just just do it, just like will you be in the scene with anyhow? All right, we've talked this one to death. I think I think you know what you need to do. Once the strike is over. Get call Samuel Jackson, call Christopher Nolan, Killian Murphy and make it happen.

Get a guy with a camera. Get a camera. I don't even go through the whole production process, but you know, people.

To do lighting and probably some prop.

Probably need a COVID compliance officer on set.

Yeah, yeah, he probably. You know, you have to find a locations when he has location scout. I guess, yeah, I need permits.

I know, we know what I get.

Yeah, it's pretty straightforward. It's just right there. Nick, this is like I say, this is super fun, super fun.

Yeah.

I didn't.

I wasn't sure what exactly we're going to talk about. There were definitely things I want to talk about. We hit all of those things and then went way beyond them. We skated through the routine and then into something very freestyle, which I enjoyed.

It was a real pleasure to talk to you.

All right, thank you, Josh, thank you.

We're going to do this again, and uh and enjoy the rest of your I assume you know, beautiful Los Angeles day, hotter than hell out there.

Well, that is our show.

I mean, so much show, really, just all of I mean, I don't even know if we need to do another show.

At this point.

We captured I would say, every possible human emotion on this one, and I loved it. I gotta tell you, even the human even when we hit the human emotions of depression and anger, I was still smiling through the pain. And that's really the most you can ask foreign life, I think. So that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more what future, and as always, I wish you and your family the very best.