Let Sara Schaefer Be Your Guide

did you do a screenshot? I did a screenshot. I'm going to share now he went back to normal. I'm going to share with you. Not a great look for me, but for you. Kind of a transcendent? Is it my aura? I don't know, but it's fucking pretty beautiful, and I'm going to send it to you right now. Well I just have to here we go, Oh wow, that interesting. Yeah, I don't know where they came from, but it's kind of beautiful. It reminds me of old Microsoft word gradients. Yeah,

I can see where you're coming from with that. The word art at any rate. So you know, we're just starting the show here and then we had this weird little glitch where you turned into a beautiful purple gradient, which I think is really says everything you need to know about today's episode. I believe you know. I don't want to waste any time because it's a great conversation for the listener to hear and I think for us

to experience as a group together. My guest today is an incredible comedian, a fantastic writer, an Emmy Award winner, old friend of mine, and someone I'm so pleased to have on the show. I'm of course talking about Sarah Schaeffer, the one and only we met on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, it was a long time ago. I think Obama was president when we met. Yeah, just to give you an idea, I'm trying to think he ran

against McCain? Is that right? Was that the first? And then he who was the who did he run against for the second one? This is fucked up? Mitt Romney? Or was Mitt Romney twenty twelve? Yeah? Mitt Romney was was twenty twelve? I think? Okay, Lyras say yes it was not in yes, So the first one was John McCain, who everybody loved the Maverick. Great guy. Yeah, great guy. Uh pow. And then Sarah Palin was his running mate. By the way, that's not what we were supposed to

be talking about, but it's fine. What are we supposed to be talking about? Eric Plin was like a proto Trump in a way, like she was really racist. She was always talking about how like white people weren't getting a fair shake. Yeah it was. It was tea party, Yeah, tea Party ship, the Rise of the Tea Party. Yeah. And now, of course we have empirical data to support that white people have never gotten a fair shake. Oh. Absolutely, it's so unfair, speaking as it as a Jew who

passes for white. Um. You know, I can tell you I've hit a lot of roadblocks in my life. So then yeah, once twelve he ran against Mitt Romney. Remember Mitt Romney had the big scandal, the binders full of women scandal, which I don't even remember that, yea what it was about, but whatever, I see a binder. Here's how fucking impactful the Binder's full of women thing was. I have a daughter. Her name is Zelda. She is nine years old, and she's into musicals and she puts

together like scripts from musicals in binders. We have binders, so many binders in the house, and every fucking time I see one, and every time I mentioned one, my brain immediately goes to the phrase binders full of women. It's like automatic, well, it's crazy. Do you remember what the binders were? I believe somebody asked him, like at a town hall or an interview or something like, you know, are you gonna employ women? Are you gonna put women

in your cabinet? I think he was like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've got binders full of women, and it just came off bad, like we were files, you know, like we were like yeah, yeah, and and just like a man should not say he has binders full of women. Like it was just and yeah, and it sounded creepy a little bit. And it didn't help him beat Obama. No it did not. But all right, Sarah, let me just say now that we've been talking for a few minutes. You are a comedian. Yeah, unfortunately you stand up comedy.

You have several several albums, right, more than one? Um, yeah, I have two albums severe, Yeah, I'm good accounting. And in case you're wondering, this is Sarah Schaeffer, a pronouncing that right. Yeah, yeah, does they may ever pronounce it wrong? Actually, it was so funny. I did this stand up show in LA and it was like this young hip show, and I felt very old. I've been around long enough in comedy where some younger comedians treat me with respect.

Others don't. They're like, who are you? That's interesting, But some like are like, oh, miss Shaffer, welcome, you know, like that kind of thing. Really they say, they say, miss Schaeffer, Wow, that's nice. No, No, that's the attitude. Though he had obviously been taught always ask how people's names are pronounced right, because it was the host and he's like, how do you say your last name? Is it Chaffer? And he like almost put a French accent on, And I was like, that's kind of a twist, though,

that might be a new thing for you. I was like, I've never heard of there of any I've maybe heard schaffer Schaffer. I could see that if they spelled a different way. But yeah, it was like a chaff there. You know, this this new generation. Yeah, they're so so respectful, they're so ahead of the curve that they'll completely change the pronunciation of your name. They never assume assume that any of the letters would pronounce how they're supposed to be.

It could be absolutely anything going on in that name. Well, I've noticed in my zoomer niece and nephew. I have a niece and nephew who are sixteen and eighteen years old. Yeah, oh they're that's very old. They're like grown up. Yeah. They frequently will refer to people as they. Yeah, that's right, even though I know that they know it's a woman,

you know that they're talking about. But they'll be like, oh, you mean somebody who isn't requesting or doesn't want to be They will they default today as a as a sort of like, oh, well, maybe that person isn't she or he? They wouldn't assume, right, And I've noticed that happening at like comedy shows where the host will be like, they're a very funny comedian and you would never have

heard that before. And I just think it's becoming part of language to refer to general people as they kind of like how there was a while where we were referring to general people as dude, Like dudes, dude, you know, and you would refer to guy, hey, guys. That's the classic example like guys and you, you mean, everybody. So I don't think they're being like I'm not assuming general.

I don't think they're being overly sensitive. I just think that that's more normal for them to, like, you think it's like a pattern, like a speech pattern now that like people are just saying. I think it's both. I think it came from being more aware of various pronouns and stuff like that, and now I think it's kind of becoming like more and more people just referring to people they don't know as they right, it's a safe bet. It's like, oh, that's a stranger. I don't really know

who they are. It's like, oh, wow, the kids are going to be okay. That's interesting because it's both like much more modern obviously to consider the possibility that someone may not be the pronoun you may assume they are. But also it's it's like utilitarian is what you're saying, yeah, which is basically like it gets out of the whole need to specify, you know, which is I don't know. I guess that sort of makes sense. I mean, obviously I endorse any pronoun. I'm happy to use that pronoun

whatever makes the person most comfortable whatever they feel comfortable with. However, the only time I get tripped up, and I probably have talked about this before on some podcasts in the past, is the use of them in a written sentence when I'm grazing it, Like when I'm kind of like reading through something kind of quickly. I often will be like,

wait a second, are there two people? Because it's not clear in writing, you know, and this is a minor is very minor and kind of meaningless gripe, but it does. It just takes from getting used to kind of be a little bit extra careful on pars in it. I

actually find it the opposite. Really, I think in writing, I'm fine with it because I'm used to news articles referring to someone that they don't know, like the perpetrator they were seen last scene, you know, like if you don't know the gender, they'll just say they like who left this here? They need to come get this. You're referring to one person, but you don't know who it was, right,

So in writing, I'm actually okay with it. I've struggled with friends that have changed their pronouns today, right, and I've had trouble while talking referring to them as they. Yeah, that is harder to adjust for me in a sentence when I know I used to refer to them as she or he and now I have to change it today. Do we sound ancient right now? I'm just yet. Do we sound like we're a billion years old? We're like, this is like I'm pretty soon I'm going to send

you a meme like these don't exist anymore. It'll be like a rotary fund and stuff like we're just a few moments away from that, right. Well, one of my friends, the first person I ever knew that changed their pronouns today. I was talking to them about it and I was like, oh, it's it's actually kind of challenging, and they were like, I know, and I know the difference between someone who's trying and miss genders me accidentally and someone who is

being aggressive with it or disrespectful, like rude's being rude? Right, They were like, I know the difference, Like, if you just spend all your days on Twitter, you think that, you know, people are screaming in your face in person for not getting the pronouns perfectly every time. Nobody's doing that, right, nobody's doing that. I mean, and if they are, then that's an asshole. I mean, like, I don't know, right, it's the problem of like a person who's fucking with

you or intentionally not caring or whatever. Is a different situation than Yeah. I mean, I know exactly what you're saying. I think what's tough, what actually is tough? Just generally speaking. I don't have no idea. I don't even remember how we got this conversation. It's because we're now we're down. Now we're making headlines. Now we're now we're making headlines, like we're both Actually this is a total aside. I was scrolling through Twitter and I saw a tweet of yours.

This is gonna this is either gonna be really uncomfortable and gross or great. Oh no, but I saw a tweet of yours and it's I stopped. I don't remember exactly. O. God, I shouldn't even bring this up to say it, say it, but I stopped in my feed. I was like, is Sarah talking about squirting? Oh my god? How old are we going back in these taps? So I don't know, I just saw it, just like a month ago. You

were like referencing you know what, Yeah, Splash Mountain. So here thing, I hadn't heard Your Believe the second album, right, yeah, it's my first album. Yeah, I didn't hear the joke. Okay, so wait, you're very PG in my mind for whatever reason. I don't know why. Like maybe it's because I'm overall very wholesome, but I have some very dirty jokes. Yeah. Yeah, Well I was like, is that it's Sarah bit about this or whatever for Shaffer? That's what it was like.

Then I really listened to it, and I was fucking scandalized. I was like, I can't. I don't know what to think anymore. I don't now now. I was like, now I know hardcore sex comedian. Imagine my family, Oh my god, that is this kind of thing I do imagine. Actually, I'm like, what would a family member, you know, Like I think about in my in my running gags that

I'm going to get into comedy at some point. Um, And I think all the time about things I'd like to say about myself or people that I know, And it feels like it would just be a constant torrent of having to hear from my family about it. Um if they ever if they ever heard any of it. I'm sorry, this is sex. There's a fair amount of sex jokes on my first album, and it's just because that's what I was like, uh talking about at the time.

It's what I was going through, um, and the experiences I was having was I had just gotten divorced and my first husband was like, um, my first boyfriend, and so it was like my first I was in my thirties, having like a single dating experience in my twenties that most people would have in their twenties. So a lot of my material was about that at the time, and

then I ended up putting it on an album. You know it takes ears, yeah, and then yeah, I've heard you do some of that, but not the not I merely would do because I never was fully uh into it, but it always crushed so hard when I did, and um, honestly, part of why I stopped doing it is especially the joke I will call it splash Mountain. That's it, splash splash mountains. You made a reference tweet mountain clothes. Slash Mountain did close, and yeah for me as well for

me as well. Uh wow, Okay, that's it's almost medical form here that I prepare for the show but I stopped doing the joke. A lot of the reason I stopped doing it, which is so um sad, is because

every time I did it. I'm talking every time I did that joke, the comedian after me would make a comment about it or corner me in the dressing room in the green room to grill me with questions about it, like I was some sort of like, uh, you know, some miracle of science, like female comedians would cord I was gonna say, that doesn't sound totally male, so it wouldn't be anything. Yeah, you're right, I'm sorry. I'm just

so used to being around men in this business. Male comedians would not be able to not say anything about it, Like they just had to comment on it, come up to me and like and and if I was able to interact with audience members afterwards, men would say things

to me too. And it just started to be like, oh, I feel like i've somehow they think because I said that, because it's extremely intimate, that that means that I want to have a conversation about their pe fetish like right, yeah, and it's like I don't know, and you know, it was really funny. I got it out of my system.

And I'm proud of those jokes. I love. I was listening to that old album the other day for like looking for things to do on TikTok or something like ideas of like recycling all jokes and um, and I was like, oh, that ship was so funny and I had such a good time. Oh those were the days, you know. Yeah, but yes, that was h you did

not imagine that on my Twitter feet. It was this weird sequence of events, which and like now I feel like I sound like a creep, but what happened was yeah, I mean, it was just that it wasn't not say so. I mean, okay, no, totally, I get it. But here's what's funny about that story. First off, it is a very funny bit. I mean, it is very funny. And it's also like I stand behind it, you know, like I I think it's really original and funny. It's one

of those things where it's it's so personal. It's the kind of thing you just people don't talk about ever. And obviously comedy goes to places where people don't talk about it. But I think that even for even for comedy, this is a topic or this is a kind of topic. Obviously, only a female comedian what we could do or probably, I mean, men have tried. I'm sure. I'm sure, I'm sure because they would do it every time. After I wouldn't go on and do that joke, they would have

to try and make a joke about it. Of course. Um, But the reason I started telling that joke because I was filled with enormous shame on the topic. And one of the reasons I started telling the joke is because, um, without getting into too many details, a male comedian that I was entangled with at one point, I saw him at a show and he made fun of me. Oh, he didn't say my name, but he knew I was in the room, and he would argue that he wasn't making fun of me, that he was like admiring it.

But I was so embarrassed by it, and no one knew and it was just like except people I had had intimate relationship with, right, so I never told anyone, and it just felt so humiliating and such a betrayal of privacy, Like and again he didn't say my name, but like he's looking to write at me. It just it was like something he was doing to me in that moment, just for me to hear what he was going to say and his brilliant jokes about my body, and I in a way I thank him now, you know,

I'm so evolved past that incident at this point. But like, but what it led to is me talking about it year, like a year later or something like on my podcast, and then that led me to realize, oh, it's like actually kind of a funny story. And then I got up and told it on a really big show. It was a show called fifty ft Jokes and you get up and you tell your first joke of the year in January, and you can't have told it anywhere else,

I mean on stage. So I got up and I just just you have two minutes, and I told it really quick version of it. It's the first time I did on stage, and it was people were like screaming, laughing, and that's when I was like, oh, I'm onto something, you know, And it was me reclaiming something I was ashamed of. And the story is about me discovering it and not being naive and not knowing what was going on, and right, so yeah, I look at it fondly. I

don't feel any shame over it. It's also really endearing because it is, like you said, it's like it's very self effacing. It's very like I mean, it's it's just the way that you present the information. Obviously, this is what makes comedy comedy. But it's like a mousey girl discovering she has a party trick, like like a like

a sexual porn star party trick. Yeah. I think of it as like a very erotic, wild born thing or whatever, but you actually make it very charming in a way, like a very quaint almost thing that you're like, wow, like this is interesting, you know, like it's it's funny, like you telling this story is fascinating because I was like, well, look, I mean, like you've been doing comedy forever, you don't there's been this ongoing conversation about like what we can

say and what we can't say, and you know, people are being silence, and actually I wanted to talk about that, and but then what you just said is kind of crazy because you basically were like I started doing this joke, which is really candid and really very real and obviously on a subject that is taboo or I don't know if we even say do we use the word taboo anymore? But it is like not a widely discussed subject. Yeah. Yeah, at the time, I was the only person I knew

that had ever told a joke about it. So yeah, and what year did you do that? What year did you do that for the first two ten eleven? Yeah, oh my god, like a while ago, over a decade ago,

right right around the time that we met. Yeah, but now you're saying like, which is like a really fucking depressing thing that you're now obviously like, listen, everybody moves on from their their bits or whatever, but you're like, I stopped doing it because when I did it, dudes were absolute fucking creeps about it, and it like created a very uncomfortable situation, which like I feel like, you don't hear a lot of male comedians talking about you

don't hear a lot of guy comedians be like, well I had to stop doing that, the bit about my dick, because women just couldn't stop harassing sucking my dick. After that just doesn't happen. Um, yeah, it's like, oh, I'm so annoyed. So it was that there are parallels where like if you, I know, everybody has a joke that elicits reactions after the fact that are annoying for one reason or the other, and they might move on from

it because of that. But like I also was just moving on material wise, like I put it on the album and at the same time, so the album came out like in probably twenty fourteen or fifteen, and at the same time, I booked a lot of colleges, and I was not doing that joke at colleges. Oh no, you weren't doing any of the colleges. Really, Well, here's my thing about colleges. It's not because they're sensitive. It's because they're virgins. They're too scared of your advanced sex material. Really,

I would have thought totally the opposite. So college gigs are not what you think they are, at least they weren't when I first started doing them. College gigs are entertainment provided by the school, and that entertainment is there as an alternative to drinking. Oh, unless you're a really

famous comedian that everybody wants to come see. But if you're just the random comedian getting booked, you know, for their entertainment series, you know, student activities board, like you know, whatever comedy night at the lounge, you know, that is an alter programming that the school offers as an alternative to getting drunk off your ass. And who comes to those things under age? Underclass, you know, lower class. Uh,

not not lower class, but you know whatever. The term is first now, by the way, freshman, I learned this freshman, sophomore and all those are outdated terms. Now it's first year, second year, third year, fourth year. That's very British. That sounds like something from Harry Potter, right, canceled unfortunately, but that was inflicted by millennium. Okay, interesting, Wait why is freshman? Okay, I mean I can understand, I don't I think as man. Maybe. Yeah,

I'm sure there's other reasons. I'm sure it's roots are in like yeah, hazing, roots are probably racism, probably racism. Yeah, it's like that was actually like a terrific m um. Yeah, sophomore. No, sophomore is actually a completely sexist and racist term. You didn't know that, Okay, So wait, so you so you're

playing to younger people. So first year kids were the ones coming, and a lot of times you're doing like back to school you know stuff, and they these some of these kids are seventeen, Like they haven't even turned eighteen. Yet so right, and they're like people, right, I didn't Yeah, I didn't go to college because I'm very stupid, but uh, you know, I had know nothing now as a result. But but my guess what you're saying is like, so it's young people, and also they're coming from all these

different places. Right, So you're at a college somewhere, but you've got people from like, oh, yeah, the middle of nowhere who've just showed up in this like big new town or whatever. And then yeah, you're going for the you know, for the comedy night. Next thing, you know, you're you've scandalized them with your sexual acts, right, And I just know, even even like material about divorce, you know, they were kind of like, oh, really, like fifty one

percent of marriages or whatever, it's too adult. It's too adult. Like it's not even that they're like, they're just like, oh, this is like old people jokes talk about something I understand, right, And so eventually, like, you know, I had other material that worked better, and I would like rearrange my ass acting stuff. And then I also was enjoying the challenge of coming up with material that would work in front

of almost any crowd except for dumb dumbs, right. I always enjoy doing shows for a higher like emotional intelligence type crowd, or even just that they understand basic stuff in life and the world. Or I guess I guess the term is like more nerdy, you know, ignorant stupid audiences that's not your well say, generally they hate me

because I'm too. I mean, I get comments all the time, like on on Facebook and stuff, because they'll run ads for my shows and I'll see the comments that people leave because it's just a random person seeing a video of me being like, hi, come to my show, and people will be like, oh, this is awful. She's annoying. She's obviously a Democrat, you know, and it's like, okay, you know, like look, don't look at my show. They ad worked as intended. I do not want you at

my show or near me. Ever your like that. I mean, it's just leaving a negative comment in general is already a sign in my opinion, that like we don't need to be around each other. I think about that all that. I think about the comment thing all the time, which is like the effort it takes, Yeah, the effort it takes to stop and post a comment to me, I'm like, and I don't want I'm not trying to be like,

oh you know, it's not from me or whatever. I just I just feel like the idea of that I would ever stop and spend time put in a publicly viewable like shit post underneath something else, like it's unless

it's really extreme someone else's personal page. Like I've never done that, Like I have commented, I've critiqued things and culture and like been like chumps, you know, probably smells like a wet French fry, you know, like like I mean, those were the days remember red French fry, which, by the way, wet French fry fry smells fine actually like christs, just like a regular French fry. Am I think? Am

I crazy? Yeah? Cold wet French fry. I don't know, Yeah, I'll actually he does not smell like that, actually I know. But human human ski and shouldn't smell like that, you know what I'm saying. Okay, I mean, I guess that's up a good point. You need to get that looked at. But I've done negative comments like that online. You know where it's on my paint and you would have to read me to see it. Right, but I would never

go onto someone else. And trust me, I've been tempted at times and like I want to just rip this person up, but I never done that. And I've never even put a thumbs down on like a YouTube video that just meals really, no thumbs down is weird, Like what's the point, what's the point, Like you're just pushing You're throwing negativity into the void. Like yeah, like you don't like it, Okay, then don't fucking watch it again, like stop watching it and leave. Yeah, yeah, just move on.

I have like, okay, to your point. I mean, I've definitely like responded to like Elon Musk saying something stupid bite saying like like something probably trying to be somewhat inquisitive or constructive, not just a random like yeah, I've dunked on public figures before. But yeah, yeah that's a different story. That's a whole different deal. I mean, but like, but the idea that you're stuff, I mean, I don't know. I guess they think that they think that I'm a

public figure and I deserve to be destroyed. And it's sort of like, okay, well you are an Emmy Award winning Emmy award winning comedian, writer, a podcaster. You ran the late night which we found tumbler account true or false? Did you actually put tumbler posts up for a late night show, probably the first and only late night show ever to post on top. It didn't last very long. No, there should be an award for because tumbler like went away very quickly after that. Yeah, Tumbler is the is

Twitter of the past. Yeah, the future of Twitter. I hopefully Tumbler's past is Twitter's future, you know what I mean? They said anyhow, But getting back to speaking your mind, being able to speak, you know, as a modern day philosopher, of course, we know comedians are the only people who can speak truth to power in this world, only us. Yeah. Now,

obviously we're living in an age of extreme canceling. Stream is everywhere you turn, no matter what you say, no matter what you who you're saying it about, no matter how you say it. Yeah, someone will come out of the woodwork and get you canceled permanently off of the face of the planet. Do you feel that in this era of comedy that you're in in the world and sort of thinking about, you know, how you can speak,

do you feel I mean, what's interesting. You just told a story where your actual speech was definitely fully suppressed by like the behavior of other people. It's not suppressed, but definitely like I've been influenced by others. Yeah. Yeah, there is a constant drumbeat of this idea that it's your speech is just being limited and narrowed to a fine lib cut talking point. Do you feel that way as a as a as one of the last truth tellers out there, I'm the only comedian left. They're all debt.

You're actually murdered for you're executed. They don't just cancel You're you're killed, You're turned into soiler. Yeah, they put in the chopper. So I have a show right now that I'm doing. It's a solo show, comedic solo show. It's called Going Up, and it's a fake seminar on how to make it in the comedy business. And I

comment on that exact question heavily in the show. But to answer it straightforward, you know, because I've thought a lot about it, you better have a great answer that well, I've I've channeled a lot of my commentary on this into the show because I actually chose to allow people to silence me. Not the example I gave you, because I think that was more like my just not wanting to deal. No one was trying to silence me. They were actually trying to get me to talk more about it.

They're actually like, but inadvertently silence here by being annoyed. Yeah, right, they didn't mean to do that. That's not what that was. But I you know, a few years back, I was very I was for many years. I was very vocal on Twitter about women in comedy, about comedy stuff. And then the Louis c k stuff happened, and maybe what he waited what six months before making a comeback? Yeah, a few episodes ago talking to Nick Turner Media Love, and we were talking about that he sells out Masis

and Square Garden. Oh he's fine, Like nobody's bating this, like nothing happened, right, Well, he's been canceled permanently and can no longer get work except for selling that Madison Square Garden. That's it, right, Well, they always go He lost thirty million dollars, He lost thirty million in potential income. And like, if you don't understand how TV contracts work and development deals work, then you don't realize he didn't.

He didn't have thirty million dollars deleted from his bank account. That's that how it happened, you know. Yeah, but we you know, we had deleted from our from the bank account of culture is another season of Louis right, right, exactly when you think about it, there was right, there

wasn't might be lost. But hello, if you are working in TV or movies, but especially in TV, canceling can happen for any reason, as stupid as a network president going, I don't like it anymore, thank you know, like right, like right. In fact, every single person in TV gets their show canceled at some point, and the reasons never make sense. So why are we being so sensitive when it's like, maybe they don't like you any gay, Maybe you kind of freaked them out and they don't want

to work. People were just looking for an excuse. Maybe they're like, this is it we can finally get rid of No, but I'm just saying, but I'm saying, you can be your stuff, your career, your TV career can be canceled. It's that's like where the term came from

in terms of like, oh a show gets canceled. That's oginate is literally and then and then canceled culture became I'm pretty sure it came from like black culture, or I think black Twitter might have originated all the best I start as I know, all the best, most interesting things happening in culture come from black Twitter and black culture. Yeah, of course there was the cancel culture is a term

that was appropriated. Yeah. No. The thing I think I think all the time about what like white supremiss is like the world that they imagine would be so boring and so devoid of anything like fun or interesting happening, like the white pro like white people just produce so little that is good and interesting at this point, and I lay massas as a white person with the podcast, so you know, I think, you know, I'm in a unique vantage point it. Oh yeah, so I was pretty

vocal about stuff. I was talking about that whole thing, like why are we crying for Luis? Why are we acting like Hollywood was fair up until this point, right, Welcome, welcome to it being unfair, Welcome to it making sense to you, Welcome to it being fickle. Yeah, well, you know,

like welcome to it being well. And then there's good, right, like pretty good reasons you know, like, right, it's not just like somebody didn't like his act, you know, it's like he had real problem, right and so, and it's a lie ability and he was doing shit on set and that's why people, Oh, I didn't do anything. It's like you didn't read the same articles that I did. I mean, like, so, anyway, I'm not going to rehash it.

I literally can't. I'll no, no, no no, no. But it's so fascinated to talk about, though, I get it, Like this is really the second time in recent podcast history for me that I've this has come up, and I do think it's endlessly fascinating just because I think this topic of cancel culture, you know, this idea of cancelation seems so pervasive, and yet if you look at people who've been canceled because of their speech or whatever, which is not the case in his case, and really in

any of these, people always act like the Louis c Kay thing is a freedom of speech issue, right, And I'm like, no, actually, it was like a workplace safety issue and like a human issue, and some of it

was borderline criminal depending on the state you're in. And like, you know, so anyway, I was vocal about that stuff, and I was really pissed off and annoyed when he came back so quickly, and like there were articles going around about bookers saying they would book him and their stage is open to anyone and all this stuff, and it was digging into all those things we were just touching on, and I was tweeting about that shit, and I got kind of in the crosshairs of like the

worst people, which is comedy like bro comedy fans, comedy defenders. Yeah, I call them shit head island, and like male comedy fans of that ilk are so toxic and they well male male fans. Can I just say, like in my experience and this is not just say that this is not unique because I think what your saying it is. But and I'm sorry, I just totally cut you off like a huge dickhead, like shut up a second and

let me make a point. But like male fans of anything are bad in my can get very and their they take on different flavors or whatever, but this fandom is pretty toxic and they really hate, uh, female comedians who talk about this stuff. And they I've seen how they've after many of us and me included, and that at that time, it also bubbled up to fellow comics fighting with me and being mean to me and like kind of sticking their fans on me, and it really it hit me at a vulnerable time in my life.

It really affected me, and I saw and was told things that were just so cruel and some of it was scary, and it was just like I had people in my life being like, you need to stop with that, and not that they were blaming me, but I made a promise to myself and to my husband, like because it would just take me out, you know, and I would just be spiraling and like freaking out, and it just triggered so much anxiety and me and I mean

having like physical symptoms and stuff. And ye like when I see someone getting harassed online, even if they were really horrible for what they said, then they come back with the I'm getting death threats and this is ruined, you know, and it's like, I know what that feels like. It is not okay there, you know, Yeah, no, it's very abnormal. I have had a couple of not to the yeah yeah, and we never talked to like certainly a woman who's online. I know that my experience could

never possibly begin to approach. No, you're human being and like, you know people, but but yeah, so I got attacked and I what I said was so mild. I didn't even say anything that inflammatory. I just said it's boring to book Louis k right, And I was just kind of and I had a little thread and I was like, get over yourselves, like like you know, and I just was sort of like blah, like this is so boring.

Please You're not edgy or special, and like you're not cool for this, and I mean, you go after whether or not someone's cool. They don't like that. So I got I got that kind of attacked and um, and I made a promise to stop tweeting about comedy debates, you know, when Chappelle was say something or like just having opinions on my own business. And I just tried it for a while. I gave it a try, and it was incredible how they successfully did silence me and

it actually worked. You know, like when a big group of people are telling you to go kill yourself or like quit or stop, they're guessing at what would hit you. And it is funny how when I stopped commenting on the thing that I know the most about my own business, my own career, my own experiences as a woman in comedy. The harassment stopped right and then the few times I've just tiptoed back in, it starts again, and it's like, wow,

they know that. I think that, whether conscious or not, they're they're trying to get you to shut the fuck up about it. I chose that I have friends who are like you will never silence me. Fuck you, I'm going to go even harder. They can handle it. I cannot handle a certain level once it gets past a certain level of harassment, Like I can't. It's not good for me. So I chose to stop. So is my

freedom of speech being curtailed? Technically no, but it's like a platform is being abused to bully people into silence and like make it say they're faced with this kind of choice if they aren't made of steel, you know.

I mean, first off, like, what's so interesting just hearing your perspective on this is that it is such a common And I don't mean I'm not saying, wow, this doesn't matter, but I'm saying what you're describing is such a common thread of online interaction and having been in some moments not too dissimilar from what you're describing, where you've got like a mob of people, like it is a mob. And I think you're largely talking about Twitter.

I don't know other platforms. There happened on other platforms, but Twitter is like, for me, was the most toxic place. Yeah. Yeah, it's design and to this day, it's design is fashioned in such a way that quote tweet, it has given a mob all of the tools it needs now in the same way that you can say anything you want and gets broadcast out to the world that can be immediately turned around and and there can be like an

inverse of the world broadcasting back at you. Right, Yeah, And I think that, like you know, it's like one too many and then many to one. It's like a way, it's like the streets that it functions on, right, the pathways that it functions on. And it is such a it is such a cruel, weird, negative form of interaction, like with no there's no buffer, there's no barrier, there's no time out, there's no there's no way to stem

the tide. If a thousand people decide at this moment that you're going to be the target or one hundred thousand people the target of their ire Nothing can stop that except you turning, you know, deleting the app and not looking at it. And I think that like, as human beings, I mean, in a way, it's unnatural for us to share in real time anything that we think

unless we're talking. If like, like you and I are having a real time conversation, we're not in the same room, would be preferable if we were, I think, just generally in life, but like this is a normal interaction, you and I exchanging ideas in real time, but like to have a real time idea out there and then get this like immediate torrent of unchecked feedback or vitriol or whatever is a totally unnatural an unhealthy way in which

we interact or that we've developed an interaction on the internet. And I do think, like not to go back to elon Mosk or whatever, but I do think this, what is happening now on that particular platform is probably like we're seeing the kind of twilight of one both like the people who want that the kind of people who want to have that interaction, also just that platform's ability or almost any platform's ability to like amplify in the

same exact way. Like I think like people are kind of moving on from that, but yeah, but it is like we have, like over the last like almost two decades, created a bunch of avenues of communication that at first seemed brilliant and useful and fun when we met. Twitter was not the same thing. It was like when Jimmy was doing funny bits with Twitter, it was like it

was just felt like a small community. And in the second it gets like as big as it as it has gotten, it becomes you know, untenable, and I think, like, well, and then the usage of it was different and it was structured different. I think people are realizing like how I mean, and it's not just Twitter, but like how helpless you are to a tech company. Changing just simple things about the structure or the way the platform works can really have a negative effect on you or what

you use the platform for. Like even since Elon took over, I mean, it's like every day as a new adventure, it's like, oh, what's this. You know, it used to be Twitter was where you would go for like real time events, when things would happen, you'd be catching up on it. But now they've restructured it so that you go on and you're just seeing a mishmash of random tweets from all different time periods, and it's not really

a feed, a real time feed anymore. And the trend you're trending topics are so tailored and so algorithmized to you that you don't even realize, like I'll miss major news events because like I was relying on Twitter for so long for news and now I'm like, oh, I can't check Twitter for news right now, they've changed it.

But also like as a creator, as somebody who's trying to sell tickets to a tour, my Twitter presence, Instagram presence, all of that stuff has a direct impact on my ability to pay my rent, Like there is a pipeline there, rent pipeline. Yeah, And you know I was told three months ago, like you gotta do reels, reels on Instagram,

that's what they're prioritizing. And then I happened to see a Twitter thread from someone I don't even follow, who like works in marketing saying they've received the message that now meta is going on Facebook, Instagram now they're deprioritizing reels. This is like within months and now they're prioritizing carousels. Oh are they? That's good because I've got a lot

of pictures. All right, Well, I mean and you know your engagement if you do anything that links to a ticket link, it's like they know, and they're like, you're gonna get one like on this. But then if you tweet out like poo poo peepee one million life Like That's why I've shifted my whole Twitter strategy to just that kind of yeah baby, like a fecal matter baby talk. But that's it's just like I can't keep up, and it's like, well, you have so little control over that.

So if you aren't super famous where you're just a man ending an audience all the time because of that, right, it's really frustrating. And you know, I'll like tweet out every time I do a show in a city, you know, three weeks later, someone's like, come to San Francisco and I'm like I was just there and you follow me and you didn't even know about it. And it's so frustrating. The algorithms like we're not we don't want to share that borde like you need to you know, get your

ass out or whatever. That's what now, that's what the people want. But it is to your point about you being kind of silenced by the mob, Like it has become less enticing to be real on any social media platform. They want like a version of you that fits in with like an algorithm that isn't too controversial, but it's like controversial or interesting in the right ways for the algorithm. Inflammatory stuff right right, Inflammatory stuff gets right, gets attention,

and so it's encouraging you to be inflammatory. So it's encouraging you to get into fights with people and they're it's like the engine of outrage. Yes, do you ever go like I should just become like a fucking like Republican, like a phony Republican, like Maga, like Joe Rogan, you know, doing my own research whatever, Because like I think about this all the time. It's like when I used to make music for a living before I did whatever the fuck it is I do, before I was a journalist

a podcast. But like, but I remember thinking like I would always try to challenge myself. It was actually when you were talking about the structure of doing the comedy on college campuses to that audience, I reminded me of thinking about how I used to make music when I would like try to use like a certain instrument in a certain way, but only like limit it to a certain type of use, or only use this set of things to make a song or whatever, and it would

be like an interesting challenge to work around it. But like I would also work really hard to do things that I felt were like challenging to me intellectually or musically. I'd be like, let me like make this weirder or better or to me, not just like for the sake

that I think somebody else would like it. But then I always admire, not admired, but kind of felt jealous of people who, like when you heard their records, you'd be like, it really feels like they just did the most obvious expected thing, And the effect is I think it's dumb, but they're a lot of people like it, and it's like it feels below beneath me to have done something like that, and yet they must be having such a blast just fucking doing the thing that is

popular or whatever. Yeah, I mean that's a big thing in comedy. I mean, you've got a lot of comedians who are very famous and very rich for doing jokes that are just really really basic or hacky. Yeah, I mean it's right, it's infuriating. But at the same time, it's like, well that that's like what all of this stuff is pushing people towards, is like is like finding that you know, I guess whatever. It's like, you know, just kind of figuring out like what is going to

be the thing that hits them the masses. But like you can't be like being being unique on the platforms is no longer desirable because like there's either too much like either too much hate or the algorithm doesn't like it, or it's not in the right format. And I mean I'm not like bitching about this like it as an

old person. I don't think you are either. I think what we're actually talking about is like this weird shift in culture that has made what seemed to be like the dawning of a great new way to authentically communicate with people has in in some ways almost homogenizing back into like oh yeah, nineteen eighties sitcoms, like like not that it's the same thing, but that type of like cookie cutter. There's a cookie cutter way to do it,

and people don't really want the other thing. No, And if you're too ahead of the curve, which this is like I've always i feel like I'm losing it as I get older, but like I've always pride of myself of being like kind of on the on the cutting edge or the on the finger on the pulse of like what's cool. I may not be embodying it, but I'm aware of it, right, I'm like interested always in what people think is cool, even if I don't understand

it or I'm like I never do in that. I'm never going to be that you know, um, but I'm always interested in and I like to experience and read about stuff like that. And in that way, I'm I'm good at predicting, like or because I'm a comedian, I'll do satire. I love satire and commenting on cultural stuff.

And so sometimes I'm commenting on stuff before it's really hit mainstream, right, and I'm satirizing something that isn't there yet, and then like a year later, someone else will go, you know, get famous from doing the thing that I

This is a perfect example, right, I was. I had a joke and this is now ten years ago probably I started doing the joke about um those a little less than ten years ago, maybe like eight or nine years ago, I started doing jokes about those inspirational quotes on like pieces of driftwood, like live, Laugh, Love and like all that stuff, and I was like the first comedian that I know of that, and it's on my half hour special on Comedy Central and really proud of

that material. And I thought I was really kind of hit it and hit a moment. But I think I was just a little too early, because now you go on TikTok, right, and it's like all these trends on TikTok making fun of those signs, and I'm like, I'm

the original, you know. Also it is in a way like there is always this thing too of like doing it early, but also doing it in a way where you're like it's like a tiny bit too cerebral or a little bit too yeah yeah, right, like and like you're like, oh, if I had just bashed this thing over the head, if I had just done this thing that was like stupidly obvious but didn't seem That's what I'm saying, Like, doesn't seem satisfying to you or fun

to you or interesting like that. It's like that little tweak. It's when it gets watered down to that kind of like blander essence that somehow it becomes like much more palatable. Yeah, maybe we're just talking about what is broadly considered cool

as often not very cool. But I do think it's like social media and just generally like how the platforms interact with our content and what you put out into the world has been it does feel like increasingly boxed in, like I think, and for me my career has been a lot of like we're telling a story of some type or we're trying to like you know, communicate in

this different way to people. The platforms have only ever been like a way for the originality to be stripped out of it and for it to be replaced with something that's much more like packageable and sellable on a broad scale, but never about actually serving like the needs of like an individual creator. That's why, like there are people who have a million followers on TikTok that is

not a living for them. You could make the funniest videos in the world of the most interesting videos, and I see people on TikTok all the time and I'm like, wow, you're like kind of a genius level creator at doing this thing. Yeah, and it's so unique and so interesting. But like that, there is not even if you have a ton of people watching your videos, or even if you have a few videos that go viral, to sustain that and make it a thing. That is a small,

very small portion of these people. It's especially on TikTok, I mean, because it's there's also pressure on TikTok. I've noticed people who have gone viral for stuff, especially like funny people, they have to repeat that and they have to keep doing the same thing, right, and then they're stuck in that, and I think that that, yeah, that

is limiting. But also I've seen people be like like I came across one guy who was making funny videos but the same type of thing over and over, and then he was he did a video about how his views had just dropped, they had just fallen off a cliff at some point, and that he didn't know why he still had the same amount of followers, and it was like clearly a change in the algorithm. Yeah, because they are sharing a tiny amount of money with people.

It's like if you were just scraping by making like a little bit on your TikTok millions of followers, which by the way, it has to be that high to make anything. You know, that's beyond czy. And you know, it's like so it's not sustainable, That's what I'm saying. You know, YouTube has become sustainable for a select few or um, and they have an ad system they you know, it's a more robust thing. But TikTok is very narrow physically,

it's just a narrow little yeah, you know. But also it's like, you know, YouTube has become more like television in a way. I mean, right, it's people with like entire empires built off of like you know, reviewing video games and or you know, like there's one lady I've follow that is makes miniatures. You know, really i'd be interested, you know, and she you can see that she has like a little business going and she does. Okay, she's

not a millionaire or anything. So yeah, I mean right, no, there are there are versions of it that are sustainable. That YouTube is is like closer to almost a traditional now like traditional television than than But I mean I think it's just um, you know, going back to the you know, you being early on the jokes. I think it's one of those things where that thing of getting stuck in it, of getting stuck doing the same bit or doing the same joke. Like I do think this

is true in music too. I think about this all the time. It was like I had, you know, a record that was sort of successful, and then people wanted the next one to be just like that one, but like a little bit different. And I didn't want to do that because you know when you do something and you're creative and you're like I got that out of my system and then you're like, Okay, how can I tap that or change that or work on something that goes beyond it. I'm sure I would imagine do this

with your writing and your comedy. And it's like for a certain type of person that's exciting and they want that. It's a much smaller percentage of an overall audience that wants the new and the different and the challenging, and then there's a larger or much larger audience. And I

guess this is just life, right. You don't know how many Beatles are there, right, Like the Beatles have this weird thing where they're like the most fascinating band of all and maybe you hate the Beatles, but like they made some of the weirdest music of all time, and they also happen to be one of the most popular things of all time. And like there are only a few instances where that is the case, because usually it's like, oh, if you make bland shit, like a lot of people

are really gonna like that. And and I don't think the algorithms have they've created a larger the platforms have created a larger space for different people to participate in a creative process, but they haven't figured out a way for those people to really make something of it beyond

like a momentary. It's like yeah, Spike, yeah, you know, and it's it's depressing, right, And it's like, I don't know, it's changed a lot even since I started comedy, but like there used to be just like a pipeline if you've got to do a spot on a late night show and then that's what that's puts you into the thing. But there was also a time period where just being booked on a club you were going to sell out

the club because people went to comedy clubs. And now people don't really go to comedy clubs unless they know of the person. I don't think it's it's just not the same. Like you you have to be famous for something,

it doesn't have to be for comedy. Like I saw this person on TikTok and now well, or like this person is a was a UFC fighter and so now I will be or like they were their podcast, right, Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but like there's a few UFC adjacent you know, there's a story about Tom Brady wanted to do com Tom Brady's doing comedy. There was a rumor going around that he was gonna do comedy, but then

they announced he's getting roasted. Oh he's They're doing a Comedy Central roast, I believe, or I don't know if it's Comedy Central, but that's when people do comedy about you. Yeah, it was all kind of at the same time. It's unclear, but people, you know, were dunking on and there's been athletes that have you know, we tried to do stand up and musicians and people try to cross over. It's fine, but really oh yeah, John Mayer, Oh John Mayer has

done standing Yeah it didn't go out. Oh really yeah. See, I feel like I feel like my time is coming. I think it's gonna be I can finally break into the lucrative world of comedy. Yeah, yeah, will come to my come to my show. It's where you learn, Okay, I will, you'll learn how to do it. I teach you how to one and show. Yeah, it's called going up. Okay. This is a perfect segue too, wrapping up, because I just realized we've been talking for a while, like you

probably have like life things to do. I just want to kind of put a little bit of a period on this sentence, if you will. Yeah, So what does the future hold for a philosopher and truth teller like yourself? Are the cancelations so broad and the silencings so massive that like there's no more space for this thing in our culture anymore? Or is there still a way to make that work? Yeah, there's there's plenty of comedians, there's not less. There's plenty of stages for us to perform

on and ways to reach an audience. And no one is making that illegal or taking that away from you in that way, I think, because that's what we're being told that there's no Yeah, right, comedy is not dead. You know, people do have a sense of humor, obviously they do. Comedy is the driving force of TikTok. It

was the original driving force of Twitter. Yeah, stand up comedy is interesting because it isn't that old of an art form, and it evolves over time and it's very in the moment is you know, it doesn't hold up the way that other forms of art do, like meaning like Lenny Bruce jokes are really weird to read about now you know, it's like, oh that doesn't sound fine, you know, but it was like so edgy at that time. I don't even know what Lenny Bruce material would sound like.

I guess I don't. I'm not, as you know, I'm not a student of comedy. There's a little bit of audio of him, um you can look up. But anyway, stand up is going to be fine. I just think that people now we've been through so much and people are more sensitive in terms of like and and this is across the board. This is not one political leaning over another where you just don't have patience to hear comedy and jokes from someone that is joking about something

that you take very seriously politically or just personally. Like I think that people would probably enjoy the majority of my material, but because they might be a hardcore Trump supporter, and they know that I'm not, they are going to be able to enjoy it. They just can't hear it. Right. My solo show is very it's specific, and it's it's a more theatrical thing. It's like for a more I

think sophisticated in pr style audience or nerd comedy nerd audience. Like, it's not really broad broad regular stand up about food and relationships. It's not that well my regular my regular stand up these days is very palatable and it's for anybody. But there are certain people who if they get winned before the show or during the show that I'm a feminist or that I'm I think you're a democrat. Yeah,

they fucking folded arms, pissed off. It's usually men, but women do it too, right, um, and and they freak out and it's like you can't even hear it. Yeah. There are comedians who I'm like, I know that of something that they've said in the past that really pissed me off, and I think that was damaging and so I just will never want to hear them talk ever again. I understand it, right, Well, I think I think for those people, for anybody who thinks they can't enjoy your comedy.

For anybody who who who thinks that maybe because you're differing political viewpoints that they can't listen to you and and and watch you and take something away from it. I encourage them to put on the Splash Rountain bit from your first album and just take a just take a listen to that. And if you if you don't find yourself, and then I'm a female comic, and all female comics do is talk about you. You don't find yourself?

Define loudly. Yeah, no matter what where you are on the political spectrum, no matter where you what politician you support. Um okay. So to wrap up, you have a you're not referring to it as a one woman show? Is that an updated I don't want to. I just don't say that because I people think that that it's like, oh, it's about your divorce and your trauma, mauma. It's about it's about my trauma. But it's not. Okay, it's a yeah, it's like a fun trauma in um capitalism and the

comedy business. Um right. But and what is that called? It's called going up, going up? And where can one see or experience going up? If you live in Arizona. I'm doing the show in Tucson on Thursday. Phoenix Friday, dry heat. There a lot of dry heat, and Tucson it's moist. It's moist there right now, but it's raining and snowing and and I'm doing it in Flagstaff on Saturday. That is my solo show. I'm doing it, and all this is on my social media. You can find it.

Just google my name, you'll find all these things. But I'm also doing the Melbourne Comedy Festival in Australia for almost a whole month of April. Oh my god, you're going to Australia's exciting. Yeah. And then I'm doing the show there, and I'm doing it in LA when I get back, New York, Texas, Vermont, Indiana. I'm doing it all over the place, And I would love for you to come to the show because I'm so proud of it, and it involves miniatures and music like it's one of

the most creative things I've ever done. And if you just are interested in comedy at all or creative people, you don't have to know anything about comedy because I'm teaching during it. That's the whole premise. So what do you leave you actually are a comedian, so the audience members, well, that's the joke. I'm like in the beginning, I'm the beginning. I tell everyone that they've signed up for a seminar.

I bring them into a ruse that they've paid two thousand dollars to take the seminar, even though the tickets are very cheap. Oh, I love this. This works on so many levels for me. When when you do. First off, if I don't if I can't come and see it in LA or something I would love, when you're in New York, you have to give me a heads up so I can come and see it. You know that

sounds super super interesting. And also it would, like I said, appeal to my um my sick, latent desire to become I'm telling you it will make later I either really want to. I've I've had young comics who've come to the show and been like I actually learned a lot and that was very helpful. And then other people who are like I'm and it's usually the older comics are like, you just drew a chalk line around my dead body,

Like I feel, I can't stop thinking about it. I'm so depressed, but also cathartic like release, you know, like, oh my god. So now I really want to check it out because it is so Yeah, it's so germane to the conversation we're having here about like about this whole start. I was like, yes, this is right up my alley right now. You know, I don't I don't talk about comedy stuff on Twitter anymore, and I put it all in my show. Yeah, see, I want to

I want to check that out, Sarah. I have to say, this has been such a fun and an interesting conversation and like we should talk more. Yeah, and like I don't know how many years has been since the last one, but just like I feel like every every time we talk, and frankly like from the moment I met you, like I feel like I'm learning something new every time we chat.

And this has been such a cool experience. So you have to come back maybe after you have done like a run of these shows, and then we can find out, like, yeah, you know what's going on seeing it? Then we do it. After I see it, I could I could do a real time review of Ye, Sarah, I was disappointed. I walked out of the theater somewhat upset about the whole thing. Anyhow, this is great. Thank you so much, and and do come back as soon as possible. Thank you. I will well.

I have to be honest with you. That conversation gave me a lot of food for thought. It left me really questioning everything you know about my comedy career. It made me really think this is this right for me? Is it should I continue on with my comedy career or is it time to hang up the old fedora and overcoat which is part of my aufit I wear when I do when I do my routine, my type five. It's funny that you say that, because that's that's a joke in her solo show. What I won't say where

it happens or what it is it show? Are you serious? That's weird because like I have no knowledge of her comedy special whatsoever. It's so good. I feel like Sarah and I are just very connected. You know. That whole conversation just flowed very naturally. Anyhow, that is our show for this week. We'll be back next week with more. What future end is always I wish you and your family the very best