Hey, and welcome to What Future. I'm your host, Joshua Tapolski, and I have to tell you something. I have been watching the show's succession, and finally, after four seasons, I've decided that I'm enjoying it. I don't know about you, the listener. If you're watching Succession, if you're not a member of the media elite the way I am. If you're not a member of the blue chech mafia from Twitter, the old one, not the new shitty one, then you
maybe don't know about Succession. Maybe you're not watching it because you're not a member of the coastal elites that
define and shape all news and culture. But as a member of that elite squad of soy boys and I don't know, whatever the fucking I don't know people call them, but anyhow, as a member of the squad, not the political one, but the elite squad of TV watchers, to show about a very rich family that runs a media organization, perhaps the only remaining successful media organization that any of us have ever seen. I sort of hate watched the first three seasons. To be honest with you, I didn't
love it. I didn't dislike it, but I wouldn't say I was in love with it or even totally liking it. And then the season things have really taken off, and unfortunately now it's ending. But I have been following and reading a great writer at The Ringer named Katie Baker, who's a senior staff writer there who writes about Succession, amongst other things. She also writes about sports and all
sorts of really interesting stuff. And I wanted to talk to somebody about Succession because I think Laura is tired of me talking about it with her, and I thought Katie would be fantastic because she's in the guts of this stuff in a way that a normal person would not be. And that's what I'm looking for is and have normal conversation about a normal topic, which is the television show Succession, which airs on HBO Max, which now I guess is called Max. Anyhow, Katie's here and we're
going to talk to her, so let's get into it. Baker, Is that how you say that?
Yep, Katie Baker.
Have you ever had anybody mispronounce that just out of curiosity? No?
But I had a funny story back when I worked in finance, when I was an intern where you know, my big boss said, Katie, how do you spell your last name? You know, because he didn't know my last name? And I was, right, that's smart, that's smart Baker b A k R. And he was so busted and everyone started making fun of him. You know, I felt cool because then that was that was the whole joke for the rest of the summer.
So he used the classic. Yeah, this was like a pickup thing. I think like when I used to go to bars, like if you were talking to somebody you forgot what their name was, you would say something like, your name is so interesting, how do you spell that right? And then it was always like a real problem if their name was like Jill, that's not that Yeah, you know what, but that's so funny the idea that it was done in a work contact, and couldn't he have just like looked at your file or something.
I know, I'm surprised you knew my first name to be able to even ask me.
So strange. Where was this? Where was this?
This was it Goldman Saxon Company down at one New York Plaza at the time.
You worked at Goldman.
Yeah, the first seven years out of college worked at Goldman and yeah.
Really, I didn't know this. I didn't know. Okay, wait, you worked at Goldman and then for seven years is that what you're saying? Yeah, okay, and then what happened?
Well, I'd say, let's see what year was it that I got a that I finally got a laptop at home and started a tumbler. That was probably in like two thousand and seven or something like that or two thousand and eight.
Time. That's a great time to get online. I literally last week we were talking about this. That was when I started blogging at en Gadget was two thousand and seven, So that was that was a real online time in my recollection.
Yeah. So, I mean, like, my online story is kind of funny in that it started way back when with e World, which used to come if you bought an Apple computer, you got this. It was like an AOL disc, except in this case it was for the Apple only AOL that they shut down e World, and so I
put in the disc. I remember I got my dad's like wallet out of he kept it in the side of his car, you know, and like the side console right in his credit card dialed up on the modem, joined e World, started an account I was probably in you know, I don't know, sixth grade or something like that, right, And that led to me being like a teen moderator in a chat room on e World, which led to me working for an IRC company called talk City when
I was a teen. Oh my god, yeah, wow, it's funny, Like, I know, you're a veteran of Business Week, and they had an article in Business Week at the time about talk City and they took a picture of me, and so anyway, the whole thing was so funny. But then I was kind of like not online for a while, well with some like you know, hockey and Dave Matthews band usenet in between. I always liked computers and the Internet, and I you know, had met people from the Internet
when it was really weird to do that. It's kind of moulnerable now. I remember I lived in New York City at the time. I lived really close to Tom and Jerry's bar down in off Houston Street, and that's where a lot of bloggers hung out back in the day.
And I remember, you know, I read, I've read a lot of blogs, and so I started a tumbler and I just would would tumble from work at Goldman, and yeah, I was kind of started writing a little bit while I was still working there, sometimes using pseudonyms, but often just using the fact that my name is so common, even in the New York media world. It's common. But there's another and there's another. Yes, yeah, so anyway, YadA YadA.
So like one thing led to another, and I was kind of doing random blogging and Bill Simmons, you know, who was of ESPN at the time, read something that I wrote on the site media which gives you place as I was writing for Yes.
I didn't know all this. This is so good.
Yeah, so that's how I got, you know, into that job. But you know, Tumblr at the time was like my big outlet. And then I started meeting people in person, often at Tom and Jerry's, you know, in the New York blogging scene, and that was a really just fun moment for me where I really realized that, you know, you start to kind of meet your people. And I remember I would go back to work at Goldman and feel frustrated because no one knew what the New York
Observer was. It's like, you know, but but you know, but I'd beel like, you should know what that is? You know, you're it's part of the culture in the city in which you live.
So that's so interesting. So this was so you're saying you were at Goldman. You're saying you started doing the tumbler around two thousand and seven and two thousand and eight, is that correct.
Yeah, I'm trying to think what year would have been to probably twousan and eight. It was right around the like when the financial crash was like in the midst of happening. So it was just a crazy time to be watching that unfold while also going on Tumblr and seeing you know, sad photos of traders at tumblr dot com and sort of it all happening at the same time.
People don't remember this era. I mean, this is like Katie Natopolis, my sister in law, had a tumblr. I want to say it was a tumbler. Sorry I missed your party, which was like really weird, bad, like people posted horrible photos of like weird shit going on at their parties. And I don't know if you remember that, but.
Oh yeah, it was like a thing that.
Whole like electroclash, like New York people who had like turned into like last Night's party or whatever, which was like the Cobra snake or whatever. That was the whole thing, but media meshing. But then there were all these tumblers that people just make like I had one. I had one called Bag of Bags, which was just patures of bags that I liked, and then like like you know, like shoulder bags. I also had one called I think
it was Guilt Models tumbler dot co. Do you remember Guilt the service Guilt I do.
I've made many a transaction on that. Yeah.
Well Guilt Guilt had really depressed looking models. I don't know if you remember, but they had like very unhappy looking models, and so I just started like I would just pull the people who looked most unhappy, and I would just post, it's still there somewhere.
I think, like, yeah, they're all They're all there somewhere.
Yeah. Okay, so you were a nerdy kid. You got online using something called eWorld, which I honestly I'm trying to search my brain bank here to figure out if I can even remember what E World was. I'm getting nothing, so like it was.
I think it was a brief flash in the pan. It came bundled with an apple, like I when I finally got my parents to get me my first computer of my own. Yeah that wasn't just the kind of DOS computer that my dad got from work that he never touched once in his life. Oh wow, So I got my own, like, you know, I think it was some sort of power PC desktop computer.
It was a Macintosh.
It was a mac And this was kind of in the still in the first Steve Jobs era, like I went to like I went to Macworld a few times. I mean I was I was in I was in deep like as a young tween.
Wow, it's so interesting we have It's interesting because your story is so familiar to me, but only because of my experience. I was online really young. My dad took me to CES when it was in Chicago. I was probably twelve years old, because I was like, this is where all the game stuff is and where all the computers are or whatever, and you know, just super nerdy. But that's interesting.
First of all, like, props to parents who bring their kids to these weird places and understand that they there's a reason they're asking to go. May I may I have that spirit with my kids, you know, continue to have those seriously. Okay, so E World was very friendly. It was sort of the anti AOL.
Okay, I'm looking at the Wikipedia entry now, just yeah, and.
It's a great graphics. It was this little a little mail truck and it would say yeah mail wow, and you go to these different little houses that were different, Like there was like an arts pavilion and that's where you go to the movie chat rooms or the movie.
You know.
It was like it was like AOL like graphical boards of things and pictures that took forever to load.
And yeah, I'm just looking at it now. It's like, welcome to e World. There's a little guy who's or a person who's like talking to you. There's an arts and leisure pavilion, learning center. So it was like yeah, online, but not online.
Basically, it was it was like, yeah, there was so in a later version of your world that you can't see in this picture. It was the same interface except basically next to the mail truck there was a little off ramp to like the Information super Highway, and that's when you could go on like the unfiltered Worldwide Web.
Oh wow.
Yeah. So anyway, like I got in these chat rooms, but then they closed it down like Apple, I'm sure it wasn't profitable in any way. Or whatever it was, So I remember it so clearly, like I thought, I've thought about this a little bit with Twitter sort of being in a weird twilight phase, but I mean they literally pulled the plug one night at like midnight Pacific time, and so everyone.
Did everybody know?
Yeah, everyone knew, and we were all up in the chat room, like I was on the East coast. So I remember, I think, I don't think I could stay up all the way, but we might have done like a fox goodbye at midnight, but I think I stayed up or I was set an alarm and woke up and was kind of there for like the final It was just like a lot of people being like goodbye forever, right, and then it just like a little window appeared that
said like goodbye, like thank you, like it. And it's a really crazy kind of experience to have gone through.
God, first off, such a vivid and depressing scene you've set like where the services everybody's there waiting. It's like, you know, the end of the world, right like were you're waiting for the for the asteroid to hit and you're kind of like everybody's holding hands or i'man drinking I don't know what people would be doing.
But yeah, and you don't know like what's going to actually happen at the moment, What if there's a what if there was a it doesn't go or whatever that has happened.
I think we're like things just kind of hobble on, you know, indefinitely.
Right.
So you said you were working in Goldman and said, this is going way back to the stuff we were just talking about. But you were working in Goldman. You had been there for seven years? Is that correct? Is that number accurate? You started like doing a tumbler, that's right, yep. And at what point did you go from like I'm doing a tumbler on the internet too, Like now I'm writing something for a blog or for like a publication, Like what was that transition for you?
I think the first paid work I did was for Mediaite, and I remember it was if I wrote seven articles, they would pay me five hundred dollars. But I had to do the seven articles first. And then I was writing for Gawker. I was doing a New York Times wedding Like I wasn't the first person to have done the column in which they called altercations, but I sort of took over the mantle of it, and was you know, kind of rating New York Times wedding announcement and.
So were you like trashing wedding announcement.
Yeah, you know we're reading them. I liked to think of it as celebrating the absurdities. But yeah, for sure it was like that, right, that early aughts snark.
Yes, it's like classic Goker. I mean the wedding announcements were like in the New York Times are always like the people are not normal, and like, you know, they're either like fabulously wealthy or have some really insane jobs. It's very rarely.
It's always been punching down, that's for sure.
No where it's like he's a garbage man and she worked retail. Like that's not you don't read about those in the New York Times. Like nuptials or whatever. They're always like he's a vagabond software developer and she's an heir to the to this like chicken fortune or whatever. And then you know they got married.
Exactly like a lot of Mayflower Society references. And yeah, so many people that have the grandmother's house in Maine where they get married, and.
Right, all these people have a comment, no offense, but the rich or whatever. I mean. Okay, so it was Mediaite and then Gonker, did you remember the first thing you wrote, like the first article? Man?
I remember I wrote a few things for a blog called Young Manhattan Nite. One was about like the US Open I went to the US Open. And another was about you know, not using any real names, but a little bit about like Lehman Brothers collapsing and sort of the experience of some of my friends. You did some like reporting, no, not even it was like one guy that I'll call Peter said da da da, and you know, and they were real quotes, but it wasn't you know, I hadn't gone out and talked to them. It was
just relaying conversations, right. It was like a little bloggy essay. Yeah, but I remember that being like a big thing that like when I wrote that, like a lot of people, you know, people in the New York blog scene read it.
And oh yeah, no, that sounds like really juicy shit, like you know, that's the kind of stuff where it was like, what is this right? Is this journalism? Is it like hearsay? Is it you know, is it defamatory or whatever? You know, it's like nobody really knew what it was because it was just something that was like it's part diary, it's part like somebody's like thoughts, it's part reporting. It's you know, like what an amazing time.
Anyway, Like I was writing about kind of like ESPN personalities or I remember there was like a some kind of Serena Williams scandal at the time where she had you know, told like a ball a ball woman she was going to like shove the ball down her throat in a moment of anger or whatever it was. So I was writing I would write a piece about how ESPN covered that, you know, just kind of right whatever
it was. And so yeah, I wrote, I wrote a few things like that, and that was what got the attention of Bill Simmons, who's you know, kind of my boss now and.
Kind of your boss. I haven't met that many people, or maybe I haven't talked to that many people who've had such a similar experience where you were so online, so young, and you were doing things that were not even really online, not the internet the way it is now, And it's just interesting to hear because you did a similar thing that I did, where you had a job that you were doing, that you'd done for a long time, and then you were like, no, I'm going to blog,
which is an interesting move. Like I don't know a lot of people that did it, but there are a handful of people that did it. You had a real job, though My job was like making music and chasing people for money. Your job was like.
At Goldman chasing people for money.
Though, well sure, but like they're much more successful than I was. I can tell you that we're going to talk about Succession, that the HBO TV show and not HBO, I guess I call that anymore the Max TV show about a media family. And we're probably going to have spoilers. So if you haven't caught up to Succession, I wouldn't turn this off, but I would just really quickly watch
all those episodes and then turn this back on. So anyhow, you you recently read about the Old People in Succession and that that was based round episode four.
Yeah, yeah, so episode four has a lot of great wrangling between you know what they call the quote, the Old Guard, the Gray Beards, the ember are penguins, yeah, the Emperor penguins, the you know, the inner circle of Logan, the intercorporate, but also because Logan had no real life outside the corporation, also his maybe the closest things he had to personal friends too, in a twisted.
Them in The Bodyguard.
There's so many things all about succession, but one of them is that next layer around the family, and just all these people who you know are are important to the family, because there's a layer beyond them of people who are probably big deals in their worlds. You know, the investment bankers, all the people that write the hundred or whatever. You know, it's supposed to be happening there.
It's the hundred, that's that's their startup.
Right their startup. You don't even see those people. You see them in the smallest glimpses, and.
So they show a lot of the heads. Actually I've noticed of some of those people where they barely even acknowledge there, and I think that's probably purposeful.
But yeah, so, you know, I've always loved those characters, and I've written before about some of the women in Succession and Jerry being one of them, and she's always just been such an interesting character in terms of her you know, succession doesn't tell you that much about people's backgrounds, but they drop little nuggets here and there, and so, yeah, you learn that she's known Logan for so long, and her kids wonder if they've you know, ever been romantically involved,
and I don't think we will ever know the answer to that. But yeah, So it was after episode four that I spoke with some of them, you know, with the actors who play Carl and Frank, and you know, just about what it's like to be in that role of you know, you're kind of managing up you're but you're also managing a lot of shit all the time. What keeps them there in their minds? Like is it the money or is it the proximity to power?
And right?
So, yeah, so it was really fun to talk to them. And you know, one thing that stuck out to me is that those actors, as many people in succession do, have such a like rich theater background, and it's kind of made me watch the show a little bit like like it's this play and it's been fun since I spoke to them to watch it, you know in that context.
Right, it's actually I mean it's funny that hearing you say that now makes me realize how many scenes on that show are like, yes, people are traveling to in from places, but like they are ultimately are often sort of almost trapped in places. Right. There's like I can't remember what season is when when Logan is like sick and he's supposed to give some big speech at like an investor conference or whatever, and they're like can he
go on? Like is he with it? Like he was like mentally out of it, but they're like basically trapped in the building, right, like everybody's there and trying to like solve it. Like the episode from This Sunday, which in my opinion, well, I'll just say this, I mean, I think the latest episode it was the first time that I kind of I would say I warmed up
to the show. It took me a while to really warm up to it, and I do believe, like I have a I think it's tough because where you know, my viewpoint on a lot of it is like I'm so close to people that are like these people not like close like I like them or we're buddies. But I have spent so many I've spent so much time in rooms with people like those people, or at least adjacent to those people that Like it's tough because it's like very realistic, but it's also like, okay, like I
know what they're doing, you know. It's like sometimes you're kind of like, I know what they're doing.
Yeah.
But the episode this past Sunday, which was perhaps I would say one of the top five most uncomfortable TV viewing experiences I've had, like ever, and uh, and I've watched a lot of Curb Your Enthusiasm, so I think, like that's saying something made me feel like I would like to watch like another five years of Succession. Like it was the first time that I think I was like,
I don't want the show. I mean, I'm not ready for this show to not be doing this, Like, and there is something that's interesting to to happen, like following again spoiler alert, the death of Logan that obviously this is on purpose and obviously they're leading to a conclusion because this is the final season, right, this is really going to be the final season. Do we think there's any chance there?
No, I think I think i'd be surprised if if they were, if this is a big fake out. Sadly, Yeah, they had always said the like for a long time, they said they had five in mind and so I was like, all right, this is the penultimate season. That's great, right. So I was taken aback because I really thought they would do the five. But I guess, yeah, you know, yeah, it's sad.
But this episode, it was so full of just the worst of the characters and also in some way the best of them. And but you got to see the Emperor Penguins as they're described or whatever. You got to see the kind of older characters. They're much more unbridled in that episode, and they're like to the point where it was so interesting. There's an interaction that Kendall has with Carl, who I didn't actually, for some reason, never
I never really fully understood what their roles were. There's actually like a little bit of like a lack of clarity about what they do. For a lot of the show. I was like, oh, he's the CFO, okay, And it made me think a lot about like CFOs I've known and he there's something about the way he plays that character that is so CFO, like if you've met you know, and this is both like an insult and and and a sort of prop to that to him as an
actor into CFOs. Generally, there's just a vibe that CFOs have and one of the things I've actually struggled with it. I'm curious to know if you what your take on this is is like, do normal people watch Succession like I've had for a little bit of I know, I've talked for a while. I'm gonna let you get in here, but I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that the only people who really are invested in Succession are
media people. And because we decide what's going on the blogs and in the papers and in the magazines, like, we have over indexed tremendously on the importance of Succession as a TV show. What is your what is your what does your take on that?
Well? I think you know, the classic comparison that people have made lately is, you know, when you compare the viewership of Succession to like Yellowstone, which is kind of of you know, yeah, Succession out West and and a lot like Dummer. And I say that as someone that's that's seen all the Yellowstones and all the spinoffs and is it good? Yes? But now no?
Yeah, okay, my septic guy yesterday, I'm the guy. We have a guy comes up because we have a septic tank here to make sure we are sept tank isn't getting getting blow up on us. He literally was like talking to me about Yellowstone, like and I was like, Oh, I've never seen it.
You know, the most recent season is absurd, but it you should watch it. It's really good. It's really silly. And if you start to if you do watch it and you start to like tally up the family's you know, death count and body count of like or just all the weird things that you're like, how would this actually happen in the world, Whereas I do think succession does give sort of real world consequences to things, even when those consequences are a little like absurdist or like.
Not right rich people consequences, Yeah, exactly.
But anyway, like the Yellowstone spinoffs are really good, by the way, and I really don't think you need to have seen Yellowstone to watch them. They're called eighteen eighty three and nineteen twenty three.
Oh yeah, somebody really, somebody really great is in one of those. I would like, I want to say, it's like Harrison Ford or something is in one of these.
Is that Kristen He's in nineteen twenty three? Eighteen eighty three is strangely Faith Hill and Tim McGraw, but it works.
God, this is like so American. What you're describing is like, yeah, the ultimately it's like the show's Yellowstone. I think Kevin Costners is he in the main one? Yeah? Okay, maybe he's dead. I don't know.
I mean I got I got for my for Christmas. I got my dad the Blu ray set complete set of Yellowstone. And I don't think eighteen eighty three was out yet, so that'll be. That'll be next Christmas. And sometimes I get them these things, and I don't know if he ever really watches them or you know, and he like he and my mom watched every episode like every day. We're fell asleep to it, Like oh my god, keep asking me what the like when they can watch the new season?
So wow, okay, interesting.
I think they would like fall asleep during succession. Like honestly, I think, if you sure, I get it. And I find that I love watching every episode the second time, like I love watching them the first time too, But man, that second watch, you're just like you notice so many things, you know, But it's like, should someone have to watch a show twice? To appreciate it, sure, but I think that I think that not everyone will. And you know, you kind of always hear from people that try to
watch it from the beginning. You know, it can be slow to get into, you know, I know a lot of people don't really love like the first few episodes. I mean, I liked it from the start, but I remember when I first started writing about it in the first season, it was kind of like people didn't know what to make of it or understand what it was trying to do. I think a lot more people do now, right, And you know, when you watch it, like with that
in mind, it's it's great. But if you're going into it thinking it's going to be either really overtly funny or really dramatic and soapy, like you're not going to find and either one in the way that you're expecting. I guess.
Yeah. I mean, there are some dramatic moments, some dramatic beats, certainly in some of the seasons, but like it is a show of micro aggressions. It's like kind of the you know what I mean, like the things that happen that are I mean, Shiv, who is the actress that plays her name I'm blank, amare Yeah, Sarah Snook, who is just like one of the most expressive actors and so has done so much with so like with so little,
such like these little tiny expressions. Like in fact, there's some scenes with her and her husband Tom, who is played by the actor another British actor.
What is his name, I'm blank, I'm kindly gonna mispronounce it. It is like Matthew McFadyen. I think, sure, why not, I'm such one of those people that reads and writes and can never pronounce names.
But yeah, all the time, I'm like, oh right, these people are not like these American these totally American characters. They are so perfect to playing. But there's just like so much going on between them. But it is nothing like in the grand scheme of like TV drama or whatever,
or just drama generally. It's so so subtle. But that's what I'm asking, is like I think like the show feels like I feel like everybody talks about it that I know, and I feel like it's been written about a ton and like Jeremy Strong is this character he's like become this meme because he's like a method actor and everybody thinks that's hilarious, which you know, I think it probably is. But like, what is the viewership of Succession? Like, well, I know they.
Recently had I think this season, let's see, it's like two million or something, setting record. Yeah exactly, it's like in oh actually, oh whoa, this is actually like way more than I thought. It's now averaging eight point four million.
Okay.
I feel like it was originally like way lower than that.
I'm from one point two or something like.
Yeah, this says season four premiere of Succession was up sixty two percent compared to season three.
Wow.
Yeah, season three premiere viewership was one point four million. Yeah, so it's kind of that's that's actually really interesting. I wouldn't That's not something I would have like expected. It kind of shows how much is like created the culture that like now people are probably watching because everyone's talking about it and they're like right.
No, there you go. But you see that's the media once again, the media's narrative pushing you know, people towards a story that maybe wasn't a story to begin with.
Yeah, I mean, I also think it's a show that's fun to watch in the context of like, you know, it's not about any certain family. There are obviously lots of influences about many families that we've heard of, and so it's fun when you you know, recently there was that big Rupert Murdoch Gabriel Sherman peace about kind of just what's what's the latest in his life, and you know some of his relationships with you know, women ranging from Jerry Hall to this you know, dental hygienicist who
thinks Tucker Carlson is somehow the Messiah. And so when you start to see that and then you start to kind of put these things together, you realize that, like, yeah, this show is weird, and all these people are you know, on the surface bad, but like that's baby, and it's you know, I love the character of Roman Roy and I love Karen Culkin, and I'm like, oh, Roman, he you know, he's poor guy. Here's a there's a good
guy in there somewhere trying to come out. And then they show him on that studio Hollywood golf cart and just hit looking at the people and with this look on his face, like with utter disdain, and you just realize that's the asshole that goes through the set and is mean to everyone and those are the same person and I love that tension, but some people hate that discomfort, like you mentioned this right, so it was like very cringe but very.
Good, like well, one of the problems with the show that I think for for like people to get I mean not problems, but one of the challenges. And again I sort of took me a while to warm up to it. I would say this season is by by far my most enjoyable watch, but I think that you know, the characters are detestable. There's not a likable character, to
be honest, I mean there's they have likable qualities. There are moments of extreme likability, like the character of Roman Roy played by Karen Culkin, as you mentioned, is super funny and also in very endearing in parts like but ultimately is a callous, horrible, shitty person with who is really pretty dumb and like That's I think one of the things of this season that I've enjoyed is this kind of exploration of how sort of inexperienced and stupid the kids of the family are, and just how so
out of their depth they are in so many of their whether it's interpersonal relationships or professional relationships or ideas about you know, who they are and what they're supposed
to be doing. Like it's I think there is. It seems to me like the writers have taken a bit of joy in like exposing the emptiness of these characters, because like, you know, these these people are so present in our lives and in our minds, like they're so they occupy so much, they suck up so much air and have I mean, Rupert Murdock as an example, has like altered the shape of politics. Not just an American
by Baker in the world, I mean like globally. His power to wield the media as a weapon is you know, it's kind of like demonic, Like it's pretty crazy. And so there's something that's really intriguing about trying to understand or get a glimpse inside of, like what their lives are. Like Yeah, but again, like I think, like a big I don't know what Yellowstone is, Like I haven't seen it. My guess is there are pretty likable characters, and some of the characters must be pretty likable, like it can't
all be back. But yeah, okay, okay, I gotta watch it, But like I don't know, this is a show where where you know, it's hard to you know, I'm not rooting for anybody. I kind of like, I'm like, I hope they all fail. Like that's my my overarching feeling of it is not like, boy, I hope Kendall pulls this off. It's like, you know, I'm like it's hard to watch, but like I don't want him to win. Basically, you know, we're all projecting something you know about reality.
Well, what's interesting to me is like when I worked at Goldman, I was in wealth management, and there's been these studies done in the in the field where they talk about how when you have a you know, big, big source of wealth, it doesn't take very many generations to like really fuck that up, you know, basically takes like two generations by the time you get to the grandchildren where really you know, they just don't have that connection. Yeah,
like it's faster than you'd think beyond. But I just remember working with people where we would refer to them as the children. We'd say, oh, well we're having a meeting with the children today, and then the children would come in and they'd be like fifty years old, and I'm like, oh, I was like assuming that they were not.
You know, this is when I was in my twenties, and like these are like grown adults, but and yet they're the children to all these institutions that have sort of already been involved with like their father and that wealth. And you don't want to always believe in these like birth word or things or whatever the you know, but there is always a lot of these. If you have enough kids, like one of them is going to be
a hippie. And if you have enough kids, one of them is going to like really want to go into the father of the mother's footsteps in a way that maybe becomes pathological or you know whatever.
It is right right now? Yeah, yeah, I mean so much of the show is like is like adults acting like babies and yeah.
And you know a line that I just always come back to, I think from like the first season is Marcia says to Shive, like your father built you a
playground and you think it's the world. And it's kind of interesting because so much of that, like you were saying in succession, like they go to these amazing places and then they never leave like the hotel or the yacht dining room or whatever it is, right and it doesn't look very fun, and I always wonder, like, you know, Shive doesn't have any friends, Like you know, none of these people have like these real support structures almost and so that's why you know they they turn to, you know,
the closest thing they have is like you know, Frank, who is also actively trying to you know, caring about this, the shareholders and that sort of thing.
Yeah, no, I mean, it's it's definitely like, you know, if they were sympathetic characters, I would say, like I feel bad for them because they seem isolated. But I feel I maybe I'm being cruel in my sort of estimation of the family. But like I think about those characters and I think about the real people, I'm like, you have so much wealth, you have so much opportunity.
There are so many things a person could do. Like I think a lot of what like kind of has driven the drama between the father and the kids is like he wasn't, as far as I can tell, did not come from wealth. I think his backstory is that like he's sort of a he is actually like a self made man, like a person who kind of fought
for everything he had or whatever. And the kids who've just been handed it, and it's like, well, you have all this opportunity and all this wealth, and like what you do with it is like amounts to almost nothing, Like you don't have an idea, you don't have like
an impulse. It's all just like kind of surface. They do seem very isolated, and they are in these very isolated situations, which I kind of to me, there's always remind me of a horror film, like I always think of like a lot of the places they're in, like when they went to the retreat Matson's like retreat that's a very horror film setting, like inside of offices, trapped inside of offices, very horrific, you know, like hotels kind of a horrific vibe to them sometimes.
And I did love what you talked about, like when they were at one of the shareholder meetings, I think the one where Logan goes like quote piss mad.
Yes, yes, you know.
I loved like as anyone that's ever been to like a you know, a Macworld or a CS them sort of half running through these long corridors at these expo centers where you know, to get from place you.
Can pay you know, you know what the carpet feels like like you know, like you know how the floor vibrates like in those places. I guess like as a person who's you know, covered these things and gone to them and been a part of them and whatever, like, I understand those environments in a way that when I see it, I mean again, that's like I think watching it from me and a lot of people in media, it is different than if you're just a regular person. I like hotels, I like hotel bars. I think there's
something like very enjoyable about them. But it is like a very very specific kind of anonymousness that can exist there that this like weird like all these people from all these different places and like you kind of like, yeah, nothing there is permanent. It's like this very strange sort of you know what would have been referred to as a.
Temporary national waters.
Yeah, there's this concept of the temporary autonomous zone, which I'm blanking on the writer who sort of coined it. But it's like airports and hotels and these places where they have their own rules, they have their own like all the people that are gathered but not for like to be in that place, but usually like to go between some other from there to some other place and anyhow.
But like, but that's the show. It lives in a lot of those spaces that are maybe I'm getting too philosophical on it, but like I think you know about it, but no.
I totally agree. I mean it's like, you know, even when they were just in la you know, and this is the classic alley experience, but they're just like in a car for so much of it. If they're not right, you know, you're in a room and then you go from the room to the car and then from the car to the next room with all the same people in each place.
Yeah, it's interesting to me. There is like just a there's a dread, a feeling of dread that had over the whole thing, and that I think this season and obvious for obvious reasons, perhaps like it has come forward more in a way that makes me feel engaged and
excited about it. There are some plot points that are brewing that have yet to be really brought to the surface that I think are you know, as far as the drama goes, Like I make this joke every time Shiv and Tom are in a scene, I'm like, ah, the greatest romance of our time Shiv and Tom like because there is like an enormous amount of attention paid to their relationship and its struggles and their defeats and sort of you know, the possibility of reconciliation, and yet
like they're again very unlikable characters that don't even seem to like each other, and you're sort of like, this is not a great romance, but it is an interesting one at the very least. But yeah, you know, Shiv is again spoiler alert, for the love of God, spoiler alert, Shive is it last we heard?
I think pregnant, we believe, So, yeah.
It hasn't come back up. And since the episode of like the Wake or whatever, I guess like the day after her dad died, I think is when that was supposed to have taken place.
Yeah, they talk about scheduling like the you know, the twenty week scan, so she's kind of still in that like fifteen weekish probably area.
And just to be clear, in this season, I was a little confused, but these episodes are moving like almost day to day, like they're not there's not a huge amount of time that's gone on, right, Like, he dies and then the next episode they're flying to Sweden or wherever they're going, and that's like the next day, right, like literally or close to the day after.
Yeah. Like at one point, it like people were kind of wondering if it was going to be each episode was basically a day, and I think like that's gotten a little like just given the travel times between some of these continents, you know, I think there might be a little bit of fudging, but it does seem like they're from what we can see so far, they've really been kind of putting all this stuff in a really
compressed period of time. And I think, what the election is a few days away or whatever, right.
And they keep talking about the election and yeah, nothing has happened, So it's like, yeah.
Yeah, so I think that. I mean my understanding is, you know, and we still haven't even had Logan's funeral, which I assume will be the setting of something.
Right.
You see the prediction here we are prediction. Yeah, this is all a prediction. I haven't I haven't seen in the head.
Yeah, okay, so we have four more episodes left, Yeah, many unresolved. What do you think where are going to? What are gonna be the big points that we see? Have any any character development, any arcs, any moments that you predict.
You know, I always think about like what Jesse Armstrong, the showrunner, talks about, how you know, his decision on when or whether to have Logan die, And it does seem like the kind of thing that a lesser show would have done in you know, the second to last episode or something like that, or you know, right at the end and that's the end or whatever, right, And so I love the fact that they did it pretty
early on. To me, I just am trying to think, like put myself in Jesse Armstrong's head, like what is he trying to what story is he trying to tell about this, because he's always been obsessed with the idea of what happens when you have this big thing, what's the succession that that happens, and how does it play out?
So I don't know. For me, I don't think this is like necessarily going to be the big thing, but like it would be realistic to have you know, this company that's the heart and soul of its family, for better and worse, mostly worse probably you know, be purchased and kind of like sold for parts and assets, you know, spun off and like cause that's kind of sometimes what happens in the real world, and that's capitalism and it's not very exciting, but right, I sometimes wonder if there's
going to be that just sort of dismantling element, Like on a personal level. There is an interesting shot that a lot of people have picked up on. You know, people pick up on all sorts of things. I don't think it necessarily means anything more, but when Kendall takes Shiv's seat and she has to sit in another chair at the table, they have a shot where she's shot from behind, kind of like in the Logan Roy shot in the opening credits where he's at the table behind.
So a lot of people are like, ooh, Kendall took her spot, but as a result, she ended up in that seat. Maybe that's a sign.
Okay's kind of thinking about.
That ever since. But that's I'm stealing from Reddit theories there, like very blatantly.
But yeah, I don't know enough about Jesse Armstrong. Just is he the kind of you know, creator who would put that kind of easter egg in there? Like has that happened before? Like I don't know, is that like that feels like a not a stretch but no, totally.
I know, you mean, I feel like, yeah, like I'm more so when I'm writing, I'm I'm going back to old episodes and looking at like sometimes you see old things in old episodes of the script where you're like, wow, there's just a remarkable amount of like continuity. Not in an easter egg way, like it doesn't feel like they're like trying to plant some like seed that is not hacky, but but it is interesting to see like the things
that kind of carry through. And I'm like, just even in the context of like the Frank Jerry Carl stuff like you when you go back, you realize, oh wow, it was pretty early on that. You know, they try to like appoint her CEO like in episode two and it's when Logan has just had like a brain hemorrhage and she's like the job that makes people's head explode,
Like I don't want that. Yeah, interesting, and you just start to like realize these things have kind of been in motion for longer than you'd like realize, right right, Yeah, I mean, like I don't know, I could also see it being that Kendall really does sort of win, but what is winning even mean, and that he sort of just continues on like his father's ways. It's like, is that even a good thing? You know, Like it's just kind of depressing.
Right, I mean, so much as this last episode was them trying to imagine, like clearly it's like trying to imagine what their father would be doing or what he'd be like or and and trying to execute in a totally shitty, stupid, like misguided way. Right. Yeah, I mean, the Kendall thing is so interesting because like this last episode was triumphant for him. He seemed like he was like you know, on draw Uggs and was like hatching these crazy schemes and was going to like tank the
company and tank the deal and blah blah blah. And but then everybody's like, oh, look, people really like this, Like you did a great he's doing a great job, Like this is really good, and it's sort of like, oh, he's emerging as a capable leader or whatever. I mean. One thing I did respond to, I have to say, is in the scene where he does his like keynote speech or whatever, where he starts talking about living plus,
which incredible, by the way. Whoever is responsible in that writing writer's room for the concept of Living Plus as a real I mean to me, it feels exactly like something that one of these companies would introduce, no question, Like it is directly from the playbook.
And like it's so perc how Manton is just like cuts right through the right through it. But even after he's done that, you're still watching the presentation like huh and yeah, like I could see that this is like.
Actually kind of a good Like it's like it's yeah, I mean, I can see a large company going like we're creating these like amazing homes that they're going to be like high security. I mean, think about like these gated communities in all these different places. Like if you could sell that package that like an apple product or whatever, I think there is a one hundred percent of market for that and so yeah, and so they captured that perfectly.
But then he starts going into like all this weird like I don't know, like life extension stuff, and then you know the part of that scene is they're like, oh, like you know what it's The response is pretty good, like we're seeing some good tweets about it or whatever, and it's like you've been to events like this, if you've been to one of these like corporate events when the like when the Elon musker whoever gets on stage,
it starts talking shit. Like whatever they're talking about, they are just so full of shit most of the time, just absolutely whether it's made up on the spot or it's from a script or whatever, Like there's so much of it that is just complete horseshit, and it is you know, often sort of bought by the public, you know,
hook line in synchro. And I was like, oh, this is like they're really capturing both the fakeness of the whole thing and also how easy it is, Like that's you were saying, Like even though you heard him like hatching this stuff at like two in the morning or whatever, you can see how you can so easily be drawn into it as a concept. You go like, yeah, like that seems workable, Like that seems doable, Like I believe in that.
Yeah. And it's like meanwhile, I'm there and it's like, why can't we cancel this precision because it's already on the calendar. It's just one more product. And then like to your point, it's whoever is coming up with this stuff, it's like the same that we here for you in the last season, like exactly the same example. It was so perfect of just like.
That yeah he is, Oh my god, it's it's incredible writing. And also I think like that one of the talents of the people who write this show, you know, not to just like hit them with so much praise, but like they just are really good at picking up what is very real about this stuff and kind of like
just putting that unvarnished on display. And that's what I find I think why I'm so drawn into, like particularly the season, because there's so much of the window dressing that they're kind of showing so much of like the products and the way that these companies actually sort of like present their image to the world. Like the whole thing about like you know, doing like bad press about his dad. Now he wasn't really like you know, in with it, and they were kind of leading, you know,
secretly or whatever. I think that just feels like all the artifice kind of pulling back and seeing how the sausage is made for lack of a better term, Okay, so is she going to keep the baby?
Yes? I think so. One thing I was trying to figure out is like if Tom even knows that she was trying, like, I mean, obviously, I guess I don't know, Like, what does Tom think is happening?
Right? Is it Tom's? Do we think it's Tom? It could not be Tom?
I guess that is some people, Yeah, some people do think that, like.
Right, maybe Also people were talking about the fall, like maybe something's going to happen, like because she fell at the at the wake or whatever. So a bunch of people mentioned that to me, Like I was talking about it with maybe Laura said something about it, and then somebody else I was talking to said something about it, like and I was like, oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of it. I thought it was just like she was just flustered and tripped or whatever. But I don't know, it's start Yeah.
No, And I guess what's weird is that if it is, if they really, if there really are just a few days that have gone by, like it could still like that ball was only a couple of days ago, which right.
I mean a lot's happened in five days or whatever, right, Like her and Tom were total enemies like five days ago, and now like they're back in some kind of weird you know, death biting like romance. Yeah, Bidey. I don't know that game I'm not familiar.
With, but they Yeah, I grew up doing a lot of weird you know, rope burns and all that, but Bidy was not in the in the arsenal.
Yeah, Biddy's very strange. It's interesting you mentioned like how they have no friends and stuff. The thing with Kendall has a family, like this is the thing that I every once in a while, I'll remember Kendall has like several children, like at least two, right, and like a for an ex wife, and they don't exist in his world like at all. I know, like they're not there.
And it's strange because we have seen them existing in his world, Like it's not like I don't know if you're familiar with sort of the Roman, like in season one he had there was a woman named Grace who watching it at the time you kind of thought was maybe his wife. And there's a daughter, but you know they've said, oh, it was just a girlfriend and their daughter.
But then he's also wearing a wedding ring, so real storyline. Yeah, if you go back to season one, like the first couple episodes and that storyline kind of got written.
Out, Oh wow, Okay, I remember vaguely like a girlfriend or something.
But yeah, and like I always just assumed it was a girlfriend that had that had a child and it wasn't his child, and I and I sort of think that's what they have, like like RT cond it into. But people have pointed out, no, they're wearing wedding rings.
And but I say that to say that, like, I think they sort of pushed that away and obviously did it well because I think a lot of people haven't really thought about it since in order to give Roman like more freedom to you know, develop his character, and you can kind of see the constraints or black theo with Kendall in the sense of that you do sometimes think about, well, wait, wait, what about when he was kind of hanging out with his kids a lot and taking them to birthday parties?
I mean he did I guess he took them to uh he took them wherever they were in Rome or something is when.
He yeah, they were like in the pool. Yeah, he was like the poor kids come to Rome and see their dad like floating face down on the pool, and they were.
Like side character. I mean they're like you know, you know, props or basically it's.
Seemed like his ex wife is doing well. She seemed to have a you know, she seems like she's kind of living her best life.
So okay, I don't I have no recollection of what last time when you even saw his ex wife, Like when do we see her?
It was I'm pretty sure last season at the beginning, he has like a like an operational thing set up in her apartment.
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, like his like his like social media team is there.
And I think she even has like a new man yeah, because I think she kicks him out once because she's like her I forget the guy's name. He has like a meeting early in the morning or something. But I was like, okay, good, she's doing well. There was a time where I was thinking, oh, I could see it ending with you know, shive whatever it is like with this baby being somehow important because it's the next generation.
And then I was like, wait, there already is a next generation, right iverson, He's right there, right there, yeah.
Right exactly. Oh god, the daming so perfect. It's the Kendall construction of that character is just like incredible. You're writing on it, and the insight is just so interesting and everybody should read your stuff. It's all all of it's at the Ringer, right, there's.
Nothing nowhere else.
Yeah, and so you've got four more episodes to watch and observe and write about. Are you going to are you going to feel like? Is there going to be a sadness when Succession ends? Are you preparing for it?
I think you know what, I think there will be, like, especially you know, because I've been writing about it, I've been going back and watching these old episodes and I I'm now starting to see it as this sort of big work of art as a unit, and it's just I don't know, I love this and I just think it's brilliant. That said, whenever someone says I don't like it, I'm like totally get you. I'm not going to even try to convince you. You know, if you haven't liked
it by episode six of season one, like you're done right. Yeah, I'm not going to start liking it, but anyway, like I will be sad. I respect and admire the decision to stop it after four seasons, Like that's a pretty cool creative choice. And Jesse Armstrong has obviously shown that he has you know, really good tastes and really good sensibilities.
I was joking like they should do some sort of procedural spin off where you know, there's some investment banking firm that you know, and all these people are coming through. That's kind of like the Good or something like that. You've got these recurring characters.
No, they should do a spin off with the Emperor Penguins. They should be about those characters and like their lives, like what's going on at home with those characters? I have no idea.
Well, and it's funny because having interviewed them, they say like they kind of have no idea either, which is so funny. Like Peter Friedman, who plays was saying that sometimes when there's little nuggets in the script about Frank's past, he doesn't know if it's real or not because he doesn't know if it's just the characters like roasting him or actually based on like the no bable of who's he exactly, like, right, who's Frank? Yeah?
Right, that's amazing, that's incredible. Yeah, No, I mean I spin off potential. I mean that's I don't know. I don't know. This feels like a CAP's like a time capsule to me, like this feels like one of those shows like that if it ends, you know, it's season four and that's it. It's going to be perfect. It's going to be like what it needs to be. These aren't there's no like you said earlier one time, there
isn't some big explosive drama that's happening. It's actually like in the grand scheme of things, it's a small story. It's like, who's going to run the old man's business when he kicks the bucket? Is really the question? Right, Like that's all it is.
It's funny, Yeah, the number of freaking investor meetings they have had, you know that it's which is true to me, Yeah exactly. It's just funny that they just basically like mark time through Logan's birthday and investor meetings and like that's that's the whole life cycle of succession.
These days, the show's called succession. Do you believe we will witness a succession? I mean we've sort of I guess we have this like co CEO situation. So but it all feels like it's very impermanent, Like everybody's kind of like, well, it's just you're just kind of keeping the seat warm. Until like Mattson shows up to break the company apart or whatever final prediction. Does Matson buy the company, sell it off for parts that do the kids ultimately keep it?
I'm going to say, like, I think he buys it and sells it off for parts. I think I could see them going with a a not neatly wrapped up satisfying conclusion. I don't know if it'll be that particular one, but like, but that idea feels interesting to me in a way that I could see them playing with it.
Interesting interesting. I'm going to say, since you know, I
might as well answer question. I think, you know, it's got a real kind of no exit thing going on, Like I think it's possible, like they're in a room in hell together, you know, like that, and then and that's the room they're going to be in for the rest of their lives, like constantly warring over this, like inconsequential bullshit that only matters to them, and only matters for reasons that are like this is the kind of esoteric like sentimental pride and shit, you know, just like
weird sort of like familial stuff, you know, like or cousin Greg is going to become somehow b CEO. I think there's a possibility that just for some reason, somehow, like his dad is the actor's still alive, right, who plays his dad?
Believe?
So so weird question to ask it. So yeah, it's like James Cromwell, yes, who is also has a great character arc in Six Feet Under, one of the greatest television dramas of all time.
So funny because I was just about to reference Six Feet Under in the sense of I'm thinking of the finale where you see Billy and uh, what's the what's the women's saying I forgot his sister Brenda Billiam Brenda and it's like there, all these years later, they're still together bickering and he's just like talking at her and she's so bored, and like I love that. Yeah.
The Six Feet Under ending is I think iconic and like just so over the top and it's like taking it to its logical conclusion, like just unbelievable. Like Laura actually introduced me to that show. She had watched it. She's like, oh my god, we have to watch it, and I was like just absolutely devastating.
Made the crossover between the two shows, right, Yeah, it would be funny to imagine the logan episode of Six Feet Under. You know, the opening scene of him in the aeroplane bathroom.
No, that's a great idea, that's amazing. Well, his death is very six feet Under. I mean a lot of that show is like people dying in the most stupid or mundane ways, because that is what happens, right, like, like, you know, what is the story, Like Tom says, he was like trying to fish his iPhone out of the toilet.
That Carl clogged. He says, by the way, which I didn't even hear until I watched it like the third time.
Such an unglamorous, sad, little death for such a big man. And that is like and that's sort of like it's a interesting fuck you, Like he didn't die in some heroic yeah, or even like I don't know.
Emotional like yeah, final goodbye.
Yeah, just that, but like death, I mean that was I actually thought that episode. Sorry, I know we keep going down rabbit holes, but I thought that episode was one of the finest depictions I've ever seen of what it's really like to get bad news, like the way the bad news, not the whole thing, because I actually thought they went on a bit long with the with the whole like kids find it out thing, It just felt like it took a little longer than needed to.
But I was like at the end of it, I was like, you know, I think they could have edited down, like fifteen minutes of that could have been edited straight out and it would have been fine. But the way the news is communicated and the call comes through and that whole thing is like, I'm like, this is exactly what it's like when somebody tells you that somebody has died.
This is the exact feeling, and this sort of like the way it like sounds when you're listening to them on the phone, or when you know, if you're listening to somebody get the news or whatever. Anyhow, we got to wrap up, Katie. This has been so fascinating, not only the succession talk which is Lee, which was like I wanted to get into and it was desperate to get into because I really was hoping to do this
kind of stupidly detailed exploration with you. So I'm glad that we did it, but like the what a fascinating, Like You've had such a fascinating career and like I had no idea what a long strange trip it had been for you to the world of journalism, and is this it? Are you done? You're not going to go back to Goldmen or anything.
Who knows if they'd ever have me back? But no. I mean, I'm it's been funny like writing about Succession the last few months, and I'm like, this is kind of silly, but also kind of nice. This has become like my mini beat for a little while here.
With your background, I would imagine there's a lot of like material there from those like that World of Money that would be really anyhow, this is great. You got to come back and we got to do this again.
You know, we should talk about the show Industry or something down the road. I don't know if you've ever watched that show.
It's kind of interesting our industry.
I have.
I have watched so Industry. I have watched alone because Laura hated it. When I'm like alone in front of the TV and I want to watch something, that's one of those shows that I've put on because i know Laura won't watch it with me and doesn't care about it. So I'm like, Okay, I'm not going to like try to you know, because I'm not going to watch, you know, an important show. Yeah, he's interesting. It is definitely in the family.
I thought season I like season two a lot better than season one, and now I'm they've like hooked me a little bit more than I is it?
Are they continuing to make Industry? Is that going to be a show they're getting? Yeah?
So season three there I think filming now? And the guy that what's the guy the guy from Game of Thrones? You know nothing, John Snow, John Snow.
Isn't it John's coming to industry? It's just John Snowe's coming to industry would sell a lot, put a lot of asses in seeds. Actually, all right, fine, maybe I'll finish season two of Industry and then and then we'll have talk about it. Or maybe I'll watch all of Yellowstone on a Blu ray box set and and give you my take on What was the character you mentioned? What was her name?
Oh, Beth Button, Debbie Boone or you'll see Debbie Boone. That's actually her.
That's what that's a person, that's a verse. What did you do do this her day?
That's her character's day, that's her characters? Da am I?
Yeah, I don't even know. Here's the thing about Yellowstone. Sorry, I know we're just so over time here, but like I don't even know when it's set. Like in my mind it's like a Western set in the old days. But it's not, is it.
It's a modern got to like go on the journey for yourself. I guess you want to tell me.
There must be some shows that are not set in present day because they're called nineteen twenty three three? Okay, good, all right, Well listen, this is great. You got to come back. We're going to talk about industry, We're going to talk about Yellowstone, and then some secret third thing that has yet to be put on television yet, and we're going to have a long conversation about it. Thank you so much for doing this.
I really enjoyed it you as well. Thanks for having me.
Well that is our show for this week. I mean, I think there's a good chance I'm going to be discussing Succession after next week's episode, and so just going to be filling this the next one with huge spoilers about whoever is going to die next that show. But anyhow, we'll be back with more what future, And as always, I wish you and your family the very best