Cruising with Jamie Loftus

I don't. I don't understand why I would have to augment that I do get excited about every show because I get a chance to talk, and I think, as everybody knows, that's my number one favorite thing to do and probably my best I don't know about best quality. I'm I think I'm pretty good at talking. I'm not saying that everybody wants to hear what I have to say, but I think I'm good at the thing that is talking. Like if there could be a skill that I could be said to have, I feel like talking would be

one of the skills, or maybe the top skill. Here's a great example of me doing it badly, weirdly enough, And I don't want to waste too much time because we have an amazing guest on the show today. Her

name is Jamie Loftus. She is a comedian, an Emmy nominated TV writer, and actor, a podcast host actually host of several has done several great podcasts that you should listen to, and has just written a book called Raw Dog The Naked Truth about hot Dogs, which is all about hot dogs and it is like a wild travelog and exploration of you know, what you would think is a simple, simple food item, but it actually has quite a complex story. Anyhow, I don't want to waste any

more time. Let's get Jamie on and talk about this hot dog situation. Jamie, thank you for coming on the show. First off for having me. You've got your knee up, which is it looks like a very uncomfortable position. I think that's a knee there, right, Is that what I'm saying? No, it's like, I don't know. I guess that's when I said it. For a second, I had a moment of panic because I was like, what if that isn't a knee? And then I was like, what could that be? What

if it's a really big arm? What if I was really strong? I'm taking it down. I'm sorry, I don't want I'm not trying to put you on the spot. Caryl. I think it is like this is seating position. I've never in my life. I've never done like, I've never sat how you're sitting right now. I can tell you I don't think even as a child. Maybe as a child it looks comfortable. Actually, but I was like this

is that or knee? When you first came out, I was like, that's a knee And it's like you don't normally on a podcast on this you get this shot of like head and shoulders or whatever. Yeah, you know, I'd like to give a full service appearance, you know, show some full services. Actually, how it? Actually? I guess related You're adjacent to people I know and things, and so I knew of you, but I never like fully googled you because yeah, I'm not a sick creep. I

only do that for work purposes. One of the first thing that comes up, and I didn't understand. I had to ask Lyra, why is like the second Google thing for you? Like how tall is Jamie aloft Us? Oh? Is it? Yeah? And I guess it's because you're tall? Is that correct? Yeah? Yeah, I'm six feet tall. So I mean to put you on the spot. I'm talking about your knee and how your height. This is all very uncomfortable stuff. I apologize. I feel very objective. Yeah, yeah,

I am definitely. I'm six feet tall. I think it's it's kind of funny. It's very tall. That's very tall. It's pretty tall. Yeah, I've been touring. It's funny because I've been touring with my friend Sarah, who is like six foot two. Recently, I've been like, I'm rather petite. Really. Yeah, that's a tall crew right there. That's you know, yeah, yeah, it's like model height situation going on there. That's intimidating. Yeah. We've just been doing like pick up volleyball. It's pretty exciting.

Really do tall people? Is that of volleyball? Like a tall person activity? Yeah? I think that you can tell how attracted a random person is to you by like what they are, like, do you blank if you're a taller woman, Like if they say you know really yeah, Because if you're a tall woman and they think you're hot, they'll be like, oh, are you a model? And then you'll say no, sure, yeah that makes sense. Yeah. But

otherwise they'll be like do you play volleyball? And you're like, all right, well so you us you're saying you're out, you're having a beverage or whatever. Somebody comes up to a random person approaches you and they say, you're pretty tall. Do you play volleyball? That to you, you're saying the signal is this person is not romantically interested in me.

Is that what I'm hearing? That's my general impression, and that's just I. You know, other tall women may feel differently, but I do feel like when a person defaults, and I guess it's different. I'm thinking mostly men, But like if if a man asks you do play volleyball? I don't take that as a sign of interest. I take that as a weird question that I'm being forced to answer.

It's a weird question. It's weird to think about. I've had people ask me because I am tall if I play basketball, which sort of I understand, because I also think people don't have a lot of a lot of people and this is not a knock on humanity, although I will say, you know, it's all sorts of people out there. Sure, I feel like a lot of people don't have a lot of questions ready to go. I appreciate no one's cut straight to the knee. I appreciate you put the knee up there, and I'm going to

ask about it. That's just how it is to be fair, I introduced the conversation starter. Yeah, I do feel like, yeah, I don't know. The height stuff is weird. I think something, I get a lot and I don't know. This is heavy speculation, but very often, and I've been trying to parse us apart for years. I have a working theory,

but I don't really know. Is like people are surprised to hear that I'm tall as I am based on my personality, like if they only know my voice, they only know like they've never liked met me in person. They're surprised that I am as tall as I am. I don't have a tall personality to others. Yeah, well, could I say as a tall person, especially in the last several years where where a lot of people are interacting with you on like this, like a zoom call or whatever, I have gotten a lot of I always

have gotten this. So it might just be being a tall person is a thing that people don't perceive, like if they don't if they haven't actually physically been in your presence. I have noticed that certainly in the last few years when I've met people, everybody seems very surprised. I'm not saying that you're that you're not have a unique experience, and that your experience isn't valid and special. I just want to be clear. I'm not trying to take you have to be special. I mean, I know, Well,

I just wonder why it is. Yeah, it's possibly just a tall person thing where people are consistently thinking that they're not going to be tall. That like you just expect maybe average height people, Like if you're not a tall person, yeah, you might be constantly expecting people to be whatever height you are. I'm not sure, but I don't expect people to be tall, so you know, I don't know maybe this series, Yeah, I don't expect people

to be tall either. I think it's like the examples I go to her, like other tall women specifically who I know I feel like have a tall personality and qualifying what that is is confusing. But like there's a comedian who I know and love, Marcella Arquia, who is six foot two, I think, and she like has the personality of someone who is six foot two, you know, and I feel like I project a lower height and

I don't. I choose not to judge myself for that, but I do think maybe it's I I'm you know, maybe given a five six versus a six feet that's what you think your personality suggests as five six? I think so so like one inch above average? Yeah, yeah, you think you think your personality is just a little bit above average. I think no height to personality match. I mean my working theory right now, as it has to do with how you talk and like I have a low, softer voice, and I feel like that's not

qualities associated with with tall women. I don't know, yeah, I don't. I mean I've never considered it. I wish I hadn't told you that I was tall now, because then I could have we could have asked you if it's if I sound like I'm tall, Like do I sound tall? I mean, now you know, but I don't know. I mean you can't and once you know you can't, you kind of can't go back, and then you're like, well, yeah,

of course he's tall. I mean I'm stuck, like when I hear myself, I'm stuck with like the kid who said I sounded like Kermit the Frog when I was twelve or something, which like really hurt my feelings. And then I think I might have for a short period of time acquired the nickname Kermit Shank or you like.

Definitely No. I had a really weird schooling experience where I missed a lot of school because my brother and I were delinquents, And so it's possible that, like I managed to dodge a real sticking Kermit nickname by just not being at school very much. But I don't have a strong recollection that it was a big thing. But there was a moment when somebody called me that. Then maybe some of his friends continue to call me it

for a little while. Sure, and now it seems cool, like being associated with Kermit the Frog seems like a cool thing, like a legend. An ally, Yeah, did you say a legend? And an ally? Is that what you said about Kermit the Frog? That's how I perceived him. I guess I don't totally disagree with that sort of take. Yeah, I don't know of evidence to the contrary. I wish somebody would nickname me Kermitt. I don't get any nicknames anymore. Are you ever able to get like a different nickname

to stick with any sort of like permanence? Because I was not successful, not really later in life, like I like people would call me like Josh Tops, which I always thought was kind of where's that come from? Well, my last name is to Paul's key, so it's like fun, it's fine. I don't think it's it's good. I sometimes refer to myself as the Josh Man, like I started doing as a joke. Like I love even more than

hearing what someone's nickname was from someone else. I love hearing what nicknames someone tried to make happen for themselves that was not completely successful. I think that that's a great call. I have a history of doing things like sarcastically that then become like real. Well, like one time I was maybe I've told this story before in this podcast.

I can't remember, but there was a period where I was like, I'm going to get into the Big Bang Theory, like I've always thought The Big Bang Theory was a terrible show, and I you know, I hope you know. I don't know. Maybe you've written some episodes of the Big Bang Theory. I don't know, but no, thank you for assuming I have that much money. I don't know.

I don't like to make assumptions about people that I don't like to assume that people haven't worked on the Big Bang Theory, you know, like just as a rule, that's a really sensitive progressive I think, like you have to acknowledge just across the board as the possibility that somebody you're talking to who has worked on the Big Bang Theory in some capacity. Anyhow, as a joke, I was like, you know, telling people I'm going to get

into that's gonna be my thing. And then I ended up watching like five or six seasons of The Big Bang Theory just like I'm not sure why, Like either I was bored or I thought like if I knew a little bit more about the show, I could like the joke could continue and sort of expand. Anyhow, the same thing happened with my love for Tom Cruise, which started as a joke but it turned out is actually real. It became real. It's very real. I mean that's like a kind of a liberating thing to be like, oh,

I can just feel this thing. Sincerely, it's nice I should say I should go on a humble bragg. People don't say humble bragg anymore, but I'm going to use it the term here. I got to meet Tom Cruise and chat with him when we were both on Late Night with Jimmy Fallon when he was doing his later show That's so cool. We actually spent like a pretty good amount of time. He like came into my dressing room. We talked about books. What books. Well, my wife was there.

She was reading Game of Thrones. This was when Game of Thrones I think wasn't even on TV yet or was just starting. Oh okay, and he was like, what are you reading? And then we got in Then she was telling about Game of Thrones and he was talking about this series called The Lensman, which is like, was a sci fi series written in the twenties that he was trying trying. I don't even know if m can

I say this? Well, Tom didn't put me under NDA. Yeah, I'll be disappeared though, like Shelley, Misscabbage or whatever pretty soon. Um yeah, you will be living beneath the Denver Airport within the way. That's all right. No, he was like, I've been trying to make this series The Lensman with Ron Howard, and I was like, that sounds cool and then I looked it up and it's like this weird

space opera from like the twenties. And he was actually extremely cool and I felt like anything that I'd ever heard bad about Tom Cruise was completely erased by spending like ten minutes in his presence. So which is I mean, if nothing else that is star power. Its incredible you forgot about all of my crimes in a moment to talk about a tall personality. Yes, I didn't perceive at all that he was short, not even a little bit. Like it didn't strike me. Now he might have been

wearing some liftshues or whatever. I don't know. I didn't check out. It wasn't thinking about it. You're enamored after the fact. I wasn't like, yeah, he was a pretty small guy. I was kind of like he seemed regular heights to me, Like he seemed like a normal height, not like especially small. I think that that does go both ways, where it's like a quality that knows no gender, where you're just like I think some people can just project a different height than they actually are, and you

can kind of fucking forget. Like I've dated people who are shorter than me, but it doesn't feel that way right. It feels like they've got a gravitas that puts us on the same height level. Because I'm bringing it down Yeah, they're bringing it out right, and then we hit in the middle at like a five nine or so, You're you're like actually turning into an average height person, or maybe even a little bit above average, but not two

above average. So that's nice, that's kind of beautiful. We've talked a lot about height for no reason at all except that I what I googled you was the thing that came up my knee and how in my mind the knee position was related to your height, Like maybe you know, you're in a chair that's just really not that big and you've got to kind of get your knee up out of the way. I don't know, this is I didn't go very far with that. I'm on my couch and that's where most things and yeah, I

kind of take a ferrel position. I kind of forget about it. Yeah, no, that's interesting. Farrell's an interesting way to describe it. This is I get exactly what you mean. It's like you're ready to pounce on something like a Yeah, I could get very small or very big pretty quick. That's scary. That's like an X Files episode. There's an X Files episode about that, for sure, and it's very upset.

It yeah, okay, So Jamie, actually there were some specific things I was going to talk to you about, not just random things, although okay, I'm enjoying the random things and I could we could probably go for a while. Yeah, first off, you're a very talented person with many pursuits. You're doing like a hundred different things. Is that would you say that's true? I definitely like to do a yeah, different different stuff. I get aunty doing the same thing

all the time. Do you have one thing that you consider yourself like, obviously you're a comedian, would you consider yourself a comedian? Yeah? I think that that's kind of like the broadest is that the top through line comedian writer, Like okay, writer is in there, right, Yeah, comedian is the top though, because I've noticed that and I kind of am like, well, maybe I'll, you know, get over this over time and it doesn't really matter, but it

does matter to me. That is like the thing that I hold closest for whatever is it probably just because I was doing at the longest. If I were to start this and say you're a writer and not mention that you're a comedian, it definitely does bug me. And I like joke about it, but I'm like kind of serious when people are like this podcaster, and I think that that's still kind of like a professional pejorative. It's

definitely a pejorative, exactly what I was going to say. Yeah, podcasts are I think they've rightfully gotten a pretty bad name because there's a lot of podcasts and there's a lot of bad ones, right, I think we can all agree.

I mean this goes for everything, but I just think that the last decade has been We've just saturated the market with podcasts and it's kind of like, I don't know's I have a feeling that, like ten years from now, that will be kind of different where it's like most new kinds of jobs are pejorative at first, and then after a while it's just a job that didn't exist before.

So I'm sure I'll feel different down the line, But yeah, right now, is I think that there's still a kind of a weird, a weird little stigma attached to it that I'm not comfortable with, even though it's like I

like doing it. I'm like proud of the stuff that I've done, but yeah, it's just it feels like kind of an achy term still, right, I think it's like you you mentioned it as a job, and I think not to be like inside baseball with podcasting, but because we are doing one right now, which you know, but like there's a lot of bad ones and this is one of them. But as a job, there aren't that many people who are doing it. Like there are people obviously who do it professionally. There are people who make

their living by podcasting. But then I think one of the problems is that it's not an art form, that it isn't necessarily a job. There are a lot of people who just do it because, like they got together with their friends. I guess I'm thinking of a type of podcast here that's also I mean, it's like, but you could say the same thing for like music, or like you could say the thing for most art artists.

Like you know, you can call yourself a comedian and still be operating at a loss every time you walk out the door. I was doing that for years. Yeah, but music is interesting because like you couldn't just get together with your friends and be in a band, Like you'd have to have some level of skill, right, Like you'd have to be sure skill. Yeah, let's say you wanted to have a band with your friends and you're like, hey, you play bass, I play guitar. Let's start a band.

Let's say you both suck and you go play a show and the music is terrible and everybody hat too. That's not really sustainable. Whereas a podcast, the stakes are in many ways very low, and if you suck at it, or if it's annoying or just a bad one, you could just keep doing them, like no one really the barrier to entry is very low, Like you don't need

a book a show. Yeah, you don't need to actually how to know how to play an instrument, which I think is kind of I mean, I think that, I mean, it can go a lot of ways, but I think it's generally a good thing because it's like when I started, like having a podcast, it was I was bad at it, Like I was not good. What was your what was your first podcast? What was the first thing you did? My first podcast? I still do it. It's called the Bechtel Cast. It's a feminist movie podcast that's on this

very network and I Heart my Heart Radio. I heard podcasts whatever whatever we're calling it right now on that and but yeah, like we started doing it for fun and like we're just figuring it out for two years for fun and often kind of like at a either breaking even or a kind of a slight loss because you're to pay to hosted and all that shit. But but yeah, I was like, I was a lot of our early episodes were like should we even still have these up? Like we suck so bad? Like we're so

bad at I like that. I like the being honest with yourself is good. I think there's not enough people who are honest with themselves if they suck. I think that's by the way, I'm not like, I'm not trying to like say there's a problem with the whole podcast illustrating thing. I was just saying that you feel that the term podcaster is a pejorative, and I do think there's something about it I'm trying to understand. I guess,

like where does that come from? And there is like this undefinable quality of like it feels almost not like a slur, but there's something about it. When people you hear people say it's like it's not a compliment, it feels like, you know, it is not. It's definitely not a compliment, even when it's intended as a compliment. It doesn't feel that way. Yeah, And I don't know what that is, but it's interesting. I don't know. Yeah, I guess I haven't really thought about like why it bothers me,

just that it does. I want to spend like two or three hours on just the term podcaster. So you have the Bechdel Cast, which is am I saying that right? I think I'm saying that right. Yeah. Yeah. Be classic of a man to fuck that up, though, wouldn't it. Oh yeah, do you have any male guests on that show? Out of curiosity to you? Haven't let men talk on that show? We do you do it? Yeah? Yeah, yeah we do. We used to do it more. But but what happened? But I think it was Honestly, I don't know.

I mean, I would want to know what my co host thinks as well, but like, there are certain things where it just felt like it became weirdly combative or like oh really not even or maybe combative isn't even the word, but just like it felt like we were going over the same what to us felt like basic concepts again and again and again for the benefit of male guests, and like they were learning, which was great, but it was like, you can't teach you every man

individually on a podcast, right, Yeah. It started to see like even when it was like men, we really like people we were friends with, Like it wasn't even a personal thing. It was just like, this is maybe like a conversation we could have as friends. But it doesn't feel like we're providing our listeners a lot of value by explaining pretty basic feminist concepts every single week. So then we sort of like we were a little more

selective these days. Okay, but not a blanket solution. I hate to do this, actually, but now that you've said it, I'm so curious. Can you give me an example of a situation, a conversation you would be having on that podcast? Maybe I would end up getting the same treatment. Perhaps it'll happen right now, Well, it's it's not even a value judgment. It's like, what's a topic that men that men come up against? And are like, wait, I don't understand that there is there anything specific that you can

think of. Yeah, I think something that we we were talking about on the show in a recent episode that I was like, oh, yeah, we used to have to like go over this kind of concept all the time. But it was, like, to be fair, not always familiar to us. It's not like you're not a man and therefore you know this. But like I think a lot of like dead wife stuff and a lot of like fridging, just like kind of basic concepts like that of like, oh, we are killing a woman to advance the male protagonists plot,

and that happens in a lot of classic movies. And I think that like sometimes we would have male guests and this is years ago at this point that like would get a little defensive about that and they're like, but I love this movie, and no, really, you're allowed

to love this movie. And that's still happening. I feel like, so we were talking about Heat before you got on, and which is a very male never seen you've never seen heat, Oh my gosh, you are doing this is why you think the show so incredible because this happens to that, like you've never seen Heat, and like, no, I've never I personally don't feel like you can understand in the male experience if you haven't watched Michael Man's nineteen ninety five film He probably right, you're probably but

wait a second, I'm now I'm very curious, like what's a movie that you could cite where this happens, where like a female characters is killed off just to advance the plot or sort of, you know at the Sorry, I know this is where down a rabbit hole here, but I'm so fascinated by this. It's a lot of them. I want to say that. I'm pretty sure is the writer Gail Simone that like solidified this as a concept. It comes from like comic books, and it's like referencing

this issue of like Green Lantern from the nineties. That's like Green Lantern is like sent on his new whatever the fuck mission because he comes home it finds that his enemy has assaulted, murdered, and stuffed his girlfriend into a refrigerator. Oh my god, now the plot can begin. So that's why it's called fridging. It's like literally and shoving her in a fridge. Wow, I didn't know that about the Green Lantern. It's very sad. I hope, I mean, hopefully that's send him on an epic quest of revenge

and redemption. I don't know, but best of luck to that fake man. Truly trying to think of like a really really popular example. I mean, I think in general it happens a lot in action movies. It happens in a lot of Leonardo DiCaprio movies where like his wife has died under tragic circumstances and that is why yea inception shutter island as well, Like, oh yeah, it's a lot.

I mean there is like the plot of the movie would not function unless his wife, which is often like the only thing we know about her is like killed in a brutal way previous to the movie starting. And like, right, it's I think that like a lot of stuff we catch shit for is which is annoying to me, is like whoa, well, does that make the movie bad? It's like no, but it doesn't mean that. It's like not

a thing that happens in movies all the time. Right, But that's like that's the thing about critical thinking, is um is like you have to can you have to be able to go like it can still be a good movie, but you should know or think about or be able to think about this other lay or this

other level that it operates on. Yeah, frankly, like all criticism and critical theory and actual critical thinking is okay, you know what the story is, but like that's not all this thing is and so or you know what this painting looks like or how it makes you feel, But that doesn't say everything anyhow. I can't understand how somebody could be like viscerally bent out of shape about that interpretation of one of their favorite movies. But I

don't even think it's like bent out of shape. I think that sometimes people will hear that as a criticism and receive it as like, well, then you think this movie sucks and I'm bad for liking it, which is very like not what we're ever saying. And that's a bold take on anything like that. You even if you did think that, it's hard to imagine being Actually, this is just me speaking now. I'm not speaking for all men, but not all men, as we all are fond of saying, again,

just this man. But I always think it's weird when I hear people trying to convince other people of things that they liked that they should like as well, like that somehow there's an idea that that liking it is a thing that you can kind of force someone into, that you can like change someone's opinion of a work anyhow. I don't know it's system okay, but that's not the only podcast you do, are you on You're wrong about? Which the podcast? I love? You're on it on a

regular basis? Are you on it all? You're not on it all the time? Are you? No? No? But I've a'm touring with them for the Sprain. Yeah. I love that podcast because it's the best, and it's one of those things that's a very modern phenomenon where we are constantly now reevaluating and I feel like that was actually a very early like entrant in the conversation of going you think you know all about this thing that you just assume but it's completely wrong. Yeah, right, and you're

wrong about it's literally it's that a lot of the time. Like, Yeah,

there's a great one. Sorry not to talk about other podcasts, but there was a great one about No, I mean I love it The Dark Night, which is about the basically largely about the Joker in the Dark Night, which you know, again talking about guy moves highly you know, guy centric film but but good oh and actually a film, a film where the female character is killed off spoiler alert, I guess sorry, but the romantic partner of the lead

is killed off ceremoniously. Not on ceremonies. Now that you've seen, now that you've seen fridging, you can't done see it yet. Yeah. This is like when I got into motorcycles. Then I started hosting the motorcycles everywhere. I was like, wow, there's like that everywhere, Like they're behind my car, they're on the side, they're parked, like people are pulling up in motorcycles to fascinate anything. Um. But yeah, but so you do.

You're wrong about you had this Lolita podcast, which I've listened to a bit of, which is a huge downer. I mean in many ways. Not it's not a knock on it. It's fascinating, but but no, I love the book, but it's on that similar wavelength, which is like again, it's almost like in the year wrong about space as well as the kind of like interpretation of like male art or whatever. But it's like I read the book and obviously it was like, whoa, this is a spooks

crazy and but also really beautiful written. I was like, this is like one of the most beautifully written book I've ever read. Obviously the subject matter is fucked up. Yeah, but weirdly, when I read it and I was much younger, and the way it was sort of portraying culture. This is what you explore a lot of on the show, is like it's sort of like you don't think about how I actually fucked up it is. Why did you

want to do a podcast about that? I mean, you sort of explain it, but like, I mean that's a lot of effort, Like, yeah, well, was there a tipping point where you were like someone needs to talk about this.

I think a lot of that was honestly timing where I made that show completely during lockdown, and so I think it was just like I had an unusually large amount of time and energy to do something, and it was something that I'd always wanted to work with because it was something that really really affected me as a kid, and I think like really affected how I viewed a

lot of stuff. And then as I got older, I got to the point where I had seen an of its influence that I'm like, I need to go back to like what it is, because I don't remember it feeling this way. And so when I returned to the book, it was where it's like, whether people liked it or not, the way that the book is talked about didn't feel true to how I remembered it. So I went back I read it again and was like, no, I think that this is actually a really interesting thing to dig into.

And I wonder because I believe the author, you know, knows exactly what he's doing and is like very anti the crimes that the book is describing, but it's not portrayed that way and it's rarely adapted that way. And then by the end of his life he sort of was like seemed kind of having to some extent having to like capitulate to that in order to make a living, right. Yeah, just sort of exploring all those different angles of it

was interesting to me. And then I had so much energy and desire to put all of my energy into something and so that was sort of like why it kind of worked out the way that it did. And so I was like eight slept and breathed it for like six months. Yeah, and uh yeah, pretty depressing. It's a fascinating podcast, and even your description of the book like, here's what the book's about, Like when you think about Lolita, weirdly the way culture has portrayed it, I was like, oh, yeah,

that is exactly what the book is about. And when the way you describe it. I was like, holy fuck, that sounds so disturbing, and like, yet when you read it, yeah, it is disturbing, but it's not disturbing in the way you're like, I need to put this down and put it away. Like I think at least the experience for me was like that, and I think for a lot of people, and you're right, like there was an adaptation

with Jeremy Irons and I feel like in the nineties. Yeah, my recollection of that is that it was like kind of like this is a sexy movie. Like it was like this is hot. Yeah, I mean, and like that's how the film I mean, that's how the director kind

of described it. Like I tracked down because again infinite time, Like I tracked down a DVD of it because I was like, I want to listen to the commentary and maybe he's like playing a game of forty chest that I'm not seeing or whatever, but like I went into the commentary and like he absolutely is reading it like reading an unreliable narrator, as if it's like, well, let's adapt this directly, and like it's not consider it's it's

so weird. It's no, it's it's definitely. And yeah, I mean, I was like, it's such an interesting exploration because it touched on so much just also so much like cultural stuff that again like the undercurrent or these things that you're not aware of. And I like the fact that. I mean, but I think it's interesting about you in your career and what you do is that you are

very funny. You can be, like you said, you're a comedian first, but you want to talk about and and be talking to have people talking about and thinking about things that that really go like way deeper into the surface I think culturally, which is why I find your hot dog books so confusing, to be honest with you. M So this is my segue. This is probably lead it to the hot Dog book. I think it was waiting for anyhow. But everybody should listen to this. It's

called the Lalita podcast. Is that what it's called. No, Yeah, I'm shit at naming stuff, so it usually does like the thing podcast. No, that's smart, that's good. Then people, Then that's the one you know, like you now own it now. It was like you started doing that in twenty twenty you did it right, that podcast? Yeah, into twenty twenty one, and then I've done a couple of others that are kind of like deep, divy kind of things, and that's kind of what the hot Dog Book is.

It's just a book version of it. Kind of when you think about some of the projects you're working on, they do have a quality of obsessiveness, like where you get one thing and you want to like just dissect

it completely. And yeah, I mean it's like, I mean, I'm medically obsessive, and I I feel like, well, i mean it's not one hundred percent hit rate, but I feel like I've gotten kind of lucky to find a way to like channel that energy in a way that, um, it's not harmful to myself for others kind of like truly, like it's it makes me sound maybe more dangerous than I actually am. But like you know, before I because I didn't get diagnosed with anything until I was twenty three,

and it was really helpful. But then it was like, Okay, now I know what the thing is. Like wait, wait, what were you diagnosed with? Can I ask? Is that too personal? Yeah? No, I was. I was diagnosed with OCD oh wow. Oh yeah, I mean I have a big time. I'm like not not like you were just talking that was that's the real deal. You have OCD for real? Yeah, I mean it, and it had escalated to a point where it's like really affecting my life,

and I just didn't know what it was. And it's like that thing where once you have a name for something, it just becomes infinitely feels like it's you know, you can handle it, yeah, because there's a name for it. So you're not uniquely fucked up or whatever, right, So that's kind of nice. I mean, you're not special anymore. But outside of that, it is like kind of amazing

to be diagnosed with something. When I was a kid, I was prescribed RIDDLE and of course, I mean as every child was in the late Ada big industry, big big industry at that time. But yeah, I was diagnosed

with like add as a kid or whatever. And then not that long ago, actually during the pandemic, I was like, man, I'm really like struggling with certain things, Like I feel like I never actually got to the bottom of I never really like it was like I was a kid, I was diagnosed with this thing, and then after that, like there was a period where I was like medicated and then I wasn't and then I was like, okay, I'm fine now, like I'm normal or whatever you know

that is, and I don't need to address this any longer. And I spent like twenty years not addressing it or whatever, you know, maybe even longer. And then I got to a point and it was like, can I do anything like to affect whatever this thing is that feels like I don't even know, like is it that? Is it something else? And then it went through like a whole process of like that, what's happening? Certainly, Okay, I'm sorry. I was just plugging my iPad in. Oh really, you're

on an iPad? Yes, okay, I would never have guessed that. Thank you so much. Wow, Okay, interesting fact you were. You were giving me an interest. I was about to tell you I was about to bear my soul, and then I got distracted. I was plugging in so I could continue hearing about it. And then actually, what just happened? There was a classic add shit where something very minor happened where you like tilted your screen a little bit,

and I was like, something's happening. I need to stop what I'm doing and shift gears to talk about that, and here we are talking about your fucking audio interface. That's on me. But yeah, it's interesting to get diagnosed and have somebody be like, you have a thing, Like that's not in your head, You're not just annoying like I've always felt a lot of my worst behaviors are just really fucking annoying. And maybe I'm just in a

annoying person who like talks too much. I mean that can be true also, but it was nice to kind of hear somebody go, you know, one, you have a thing. It's real, Like they were like, you're off the charts, like you're like every all of the tests that we've done, you're in the highest percentile or whatever of like having the thing. And then they're like, here' stuff you can do,

which is sort of amazing that they even happen. I mean, it's like, I feel so lucky that I was able to even get that, because it's like a lot of people never get that, whether they're like not comfortable getting it or don't have access to it or whatever. It is like it Yeah, it was totally. It definitely like changed my at least mindset because I was in total like chaos brain. And also I and this is like obviously like not a medical I don't know shit about shit.

But I was originally diagnosed with OCD and bipolar, and then when I got a second opinion about a year and a half later, because the medicine I was taking for bipolar, like it wasn't really making a difference and it was kind of like not like not helping. And when I spoke to another professional about it, like a year and a half after that, they're like, oh, yeah, there's like very often if you have severe OCD, it is mistaken as low grade bipolar because of the kind

of like intensity of it. So like it just took years to like for a while, I thought I was, you know, OCD bipolar, and then as time went on, it was like, no, I think I just have you know, X games OCD and that's you know, like it is manageable,

and I think it's I don't know. I guess I'm curious of like what your experience of this is with add because I feel like when I knew that there was a problem, it was like, oh, okay, so how do we kill the problem kind of and not like this is a part of my personality and like I either are ways to temper it so that it's not harmful, but like you can't just kill a part of you, like no, So that's yeah, well that was always when

I was a kid. I always one of the things I felt about, like when I was taking Riddlin was I could feel like there was a part of me that was being killed, that was being like I didn't know. I think, like the drug was so strong. I mean only an extreme case. I feel like you should be

giving kids riddle it. And that's just my opinion. I'm not a doctor at all, but having been a kid on riddling and then like kind of understanding it after the fact, I was like, wow, like I was on a very powerful drug that did make me feel like absolutely, like I was cutting off a certain part of my personality or like just reshaping my personality to be this other thing, which is like obviously still me, but yeah, chemically enhanced me or chemically sort of you know, deviated.

I feel like now the modern interpretation understanding of having any kind of neurodivergence as we call it, but which is brand new. By the way, people didn't call it neurodivergence ten years ago. You didn't hear anybody using that term.

It is a pretty new thing. I do think there's a whole generation of people who are like, oh, yeah, like I have issues, I have things with me that are not like you, and like I'm it's like that's part of who I am, and like sometimes like people are actively treating it for all sorts of different reasons. I think it's a very modern and recent occurrence that you can even feel comfortable talking about it, like even this conversation a few I feel like a decade ago.

And maybe this is the gift that podcasting has given us. Perhaps it's given an opportunity for all kinds of people to just be like like spin, I'm a fucking weirdo, and you know that's fine. And I don't know that like being diagnosed with a thing that is like definitely like this kind of weird chemical imbalance or behavior has changed any of that. I mean, you feel like you're not trying to kill the behavior. Is that what you're saying, Like that there's a different stance. Yeah, I think that.

I And again, like I think I totally agree that like the way that people have talked about it has changed so much because even when I mean, you know us like diagnosed with us in twenty sixteen or twenty fifteen, and like even then, it was like, oh, so we we need to like kill this with fire. That's the solution, right, right, and like I will fundamentally change as a person and then things will be great and normal. Oh god, yeah. And it's like and it's not even that any professional.

Like the more I talked to people, the more they're like, yeah, no, that's not We're just trying to like make it so that you can like function, and and and as time went on, it was like you know, with trial and error with different medications and different treatments. Because I did like exposure therapy for as long as I could afford it, and then I stopped, and like, you know, it was like all over the place exposure therapy. Oh gosh, I don't know if I this is a good explanation of it.

But basically it was like sessions I would do with my therapist for yeah, the few months that he was giving me an eighty percent discount and then he was like no more. But but he was like, yeah, you're in the trenches. I'll do this. But it was stuff we're like we would take something that would like trigger my OCG brain, and we would look at it together and it would be sort of this repeated pattern of like, Okay, you're looking at this, what is the worst case scenario?

With this in your head? Instinct doesn't need to be rational? What's the worst case scenario? And I would have to say it out loud and then he's like, okay, so if that is the worst case scenario, would you die? What would happen? How would you deal with that problem?

And we would talk through how to deal with the worst case scenario in my head, and even so it was usually solvable, and then we would scale it back and back and back and back until we were at like a more objective way of viewing the thing, and it actually did really help, and it like really helped with my I mean not that it's healthy, because I would not say it is, but like I think a lot of what would sort of put me in a horrible place would be like stuff with the internet, and

it like, well, it's very bad like that. I mean truly, Sometimes we would be looking at like a tab and it's like, okay, right, what is set? Okay, what's on the tab? What's on the tab? I have to know I'm not telling you what's on that. Can you give me a realm of what's on the tab, like the kind of thing that might be on the tab. You don't have to be specific. It was like Twitter sometimes it uh, that's what I was. That's where my head went, is like social media okay. So it's like it was

not like intellectual. I wasn't like I was like beheading videos because there's so much horrible shit on the Internet. I was like, sure, you know what I mean. My head went in like all these different places, but for me, the top one. When you said it, I was like, oh, it's got to be like social media is in that tab. Would be like, yeah, oh, it's like you know, a tweet from that you that you're like, am I Like

did I do something wrong? Like that kind of reactive And that was the sort of stuff that, especially when I started to treatment as something that I got to work on for a long time, but like I could get in my head so easily on no information. They say, yeah,

that's terrifying. That's like the Internet is designed to reinforce that, and I show it to you more and more, and so it's like having to ask myself those basic questions and like even if this is the worst case scenario, you'll live, like you'll be all right, and you're it'll suck for a little bit. Yeah, No, I know what you're talking about. Like, I mean, it's it's but it's such an acute sensation of you like tweet something and then it becomes a thing and then like suddenly there's

a pile on. I don't know if this is the same situation, but like maybe it was less than that, but it's kind of like it can feel so high. The escalation of it in your mind and in your

like soul can feel so overwhelmingly. I'm not saying that I know the experience that you're talking about, but I can kind of understand, like I can kind of understand obsessing about that kind of situation because it is, Yeah, there's so many unanswered questions on that screen in that tab that you can't possibly wrap your head around or get inside of, and you're sort of like, at this remove going, where is this going? How is it going to play out? What do these people really think? Like right,

that's terrifying. Honestly, mine were like pretty innocuous like things where I was not even directly implicated, but I'm like, oh, fuck, like you know, okay, interesting. Yeah, I mean it was like a problem. It's really stressful, and it was like stressful to me and annoying to people in my life

because they're like, what are you talking about? Like you know, like really yeah, So I think this is how I feel about myself, Like when I'm at my sort of most extreme version of my add or whatever, it's like, oh, I'm definitely annoying all the people around me, Like I'm

definitely being really overwhelming. And it's like occasionally that's true, but sometimes I feel like when you're in that like space, or at least for me, I'm like I'm like, oh, I'm being horrible, I'm being annoying, and then they're like you haven't said anything in twenty minutes, Like what the

fuck are you talking about? You're like, oh, this was like everything was going on inside my head right But anyway, that was like one of the higher that was like one of the things that we talked about right away because it affected my daily life. But there's still I mean I think that it's like I guess reorienting my brain to be like, Okay, this is something I need to learn to live with I'm not going to be

able to kill it. Yeah, because there are still like stuff with OCD that is like a day to day thing that you know, I try to have a better relationship with. I have to I have to walk a certain number of miles every single day or I'll you know, explode. That's great, Wow, I allowed to keep those ones. Yeah. I wish I had a problem that was like you have to exercise and move your body. That would be

like a great like obsession for me to have. Mine's like the opposite of that, like I can't well, it gets kind of like there's no direction in which it is like completely applicable because it's like I even that like with with my last therapist. At first he was like, yeah, that sounds good. That's a healthy one, and then like I took it too far, and then I I was like, sorry, I feel like shit today, and he's like why, I'm like, well, the skin's falling off my feet. I'm taking so many steps.

I was literally gonna say, like your legs are broken. It's like, yeah, maybe you don't keep walking, don't you know, Like that's crazy. You just can't apply that level of energy to everything, so it's like I've had to learn to distribute, right the energy and all that shit indifferent.

So anyways, work is actually you know not sometimes probably I take it too far, but for the most part, it's like, Okay, this is something specific, it is a task, and I'm putting this energy here and it's helpful because

then you don't put it somewhere else. And I and I think to bring us back on topic, well, I mean whatever, there's no on topic on this podcast, but one quick thing I'll say, and then I do want to talk about the book because like, you know, like you've just done it and it's kind of wild, and I want to get into a little bit. But I

was going to say on the exposure therapy thing. What's interesting to me and what has been eye opening personally is the realms and ranges of treatment that exist now that I feel like there was like a very one size fits all solution when I was younger, and now I'm like, oh, like, if this particular medication or this particular sort of strategy, you know, or therapy isn't working, there are these other things you can do, and like they could actually be better and improve the situation, and

like it's interesting to have a menu of options now instead of um, I don't know whatever. I don't know what people were doing before there was you could even like talk to a doctor about this stuff. But I mean they were going insane, is what was happening. They were their la but they were just kind of having worse lives than they should have, right, right, they were all very draper or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, now completely on topic. You wrote a book. Yes, it's called

Raw Dog. Yes, what is the subtitle? Uh, The Secret History of hot Dogs? I think, yeah, yeah, Now, I'll be honest you, I haven't I'm not finished it yet. It's but I I've read a bunch of it. And did you mentioned it early on that there's like some horny parts of the book, which I think is interesting and I think I guess I was like, oh, that makes sense. Like hot dogs are somehow I guess just

naturally they're very they're extremely phallic. Yeah, and they're like you know meat, it's not like just a shape, it's like made of you know, animal parts. And let's pretend someone's listening to this and they have no idea. They haven't listened to the rest of this podcast. I don't know what's happening with them. They just joined us. But explain the book to it to a lay person, how would you describe this? The book is, I mean, it

is quite simply about hot dogs. It is. There are other books about hot dogs, but I've never found I wasn't able to find a book that was about hot dogs that also was I guess like funny or or critical. Those are the two things they've found missing. It was just like, here's some information about hot dogs that they were aimed at people who love hot dogs and don't want to love hot dogs any less than they already do because they don't want to be challenged on hot

dogs in any way. Right. And I feel like my my my tendency. When I get interested in something, it's like I want to know every single thing about it, whether it's good or bad, and present it to people the best way I can, and then let them decide how they feel about it. It's none of my business. And there wasn't an equivalent of that for hot dogs.

You could read about, you know, the horrific things going on and meat packing factories, or you could read a fun guide book about where to eat hot dogs across the country, and I was like, I think that there is actually something interesting about trying to present both in the same space and hopefully, you know, have it be funny and find moments of like levity inside of it.

And then I'm also talking about like the road trip I took to research it right while not trying to you know, shy away from the stuff that is like genuinely scary and fucked up. And then also like there's all of these like side quests of stuff that I didn't think was like, oh my god, like this is a huge like microcosm for this big issue, but it's hot dogs. It's I don't know, Yeah, can you describe like a side quest, Like what would be one of the that you consider a side quest in the book?

One of the side I mean this is like a more of a horny side quest. But like the Wienermobile, Like that's a thing that like, you know, I knew of most people know about in the States at least, and but like you talk to people who drive the Wienermobile and they're like, oh, yeah, everyone's fucking you know, like or in the in the Wienermobile, there is an extremely high rate of people who drive the Wienermobile who

end up getting married. Like it's like, yeah, you mean like people who are drivers and they get into a relationship and then they get married Wienermobile people. When you're driving the Wienermobile, there's still pretty um. They have their reasons for this. I don't know what a way to feel about it, but they're still pretty gender essential over at Oscar Meyer. So generally they will have a man and a woman driving the Wienermobile and very often this

will result in uh fucking in marriage. And then yeah, well, I mean it makes sense in a way. I mean you're driving six months, six months at a time with one person, You're in the Fallus car. I mean it's very suggestive, just dick on the mind NonStop. But probably I would imagine that. Or hot dogs, which are you know, I don't know sure. I mean I don't think about sex and hot dogs as a thing, but I'm sure that a lot of people do. Are you a hot dog fan? Do you eat them? Well? I am vegetarian,

now that's okay. I was vegetarian and then I went through a thing over during kind of during the pandemic. I was like, fuck this, I'm ski whatever. I'm skin eat everything. I don't care, like I can't do it anymore. I'm going to just eat whatever. If an animal happens by and I'm hungry, it's that's it. Yeah, you're Ferrel. Yeah, exactly Ferrell indeed, and then and then so now I've gone back. I do like hot dogs. They're not something that I eat very often. My daughter loves tofu dogs.

There's a company called smart Dogs. They're lightlight. They make us think they're very good. They're good. They're actually I mean. The weird thing about it is if you can if you can model like a little bit of the spicing

of a hot dog and the casing a bit. Yeah, if you can get those kind of right, like you basically have all the things you need, you know what I mean, because it's such a weird Yeah, I mean the hot dog itself is like made up of like what you would know you could describe specifically, like what's in a hot dog. Typically it's like a foot, I mean it really depends, but leftovers basically. Yeah, it's like the stuff they can't use in anything else. They're like,

if we grind this up, fine enough. Yeah, it's mostly head. Yes, I don't think about food very much. I was actually just talking about this with my wife. I was saying, like, she'll get obsessed with like this idea, she wants to have this thing, like this soup or whatever. I hardly ever, I'll have a sandwich of any type. Basically, I love a sandwich, and as we know, a hot dog is not a sandwich. So oh is that your feeling? No, I don't know. I actually don't have a strong opinion.

Do you think of hot dogs a sandwich? I just am like, if that's the number one thing on someone's mind, they should buy the book because there's more interesting debates surrounding hot dogs, right right. I don't. I'm not trying to. I'm not trying to spark a debate over that. But yeah, so, I mean I like hot dogs. Do you still eat them? Now? Do you feel like you've done a book, You've like gone across the country. Are you still get hungry for a hot dog? Yes? I do, Um, which kind of

surprises me. I didn't think that that would be where I would land. Um. I skew more veggie dogs these days, just because of learning so much about But I am not, you know, completely vegetarian, I will still eat meat hot

dog and you know, live with myself for that. I'm interested to talk to people once they read the book about how they how it makes them feel, because I do think it's like I think my first time like bumping up against something like this was like seeing supersize me when I was a kid, which I don't remember, you know, how thoughtfully done that actually was. But I do remember being like, oh shit, I shouldn't eat McDonald's.

And then I didn't eat McDonald's for a couple of months, and then I went back to eating McDonald's because it was good and it was what my family could afford.

And I just like, willfully let that information leave my brain. Yeah, I think that there is a lot of like meat eaters that um that go through go through that, And that's sort of what I found too, is like when the road trip ended, I did stop eating hot dogs for a while, but then a little bit and and I have more information than like, you know, I'm in the I'm in the top percentile of people with information about this, and I still went back to eating meat

hot dogs. I mean, I don't I don't know, I don't know you I mean, you wrote a fucking book about hot dogs, so like if you wrote the book literally, so, I mean you definitely are in in terms of information about the thing. You're in a rarefied space. Right, There's like four other hot dog experts in the world who can meet in this guy named Bruce who I would really like to meet. I hope you would like Bruce wat let's get him, maybe we can. Maybe he's listening

right now. Bruce. What is his last name? Bruce Craig with a kay. Yeah. I found his book about hot dogs that was like kind of the north Star because he had a lot of interesting stuff in there, right, and you want to meet Bruce and compare notes. I would love to meet Bruce. I just yeah, I would like to know what Bruce thinks of the book if he reads it. I would like to chat with him. I don't know, I just kind of want to. I just would like to, even if it was private, have

a hot dog with him. I'd like to sit down with Bruce at some point. I mean, I'm I'm hopeful we'll see how he feels well. I hope that happens, Okay, I think we Unfortunately, as much as I would like to continue talking to you. We have to wrap up before we do that. Obviously, you've just done this book about hot dogs, Raw Dog May twenty third. You can buy it at whatever ethic book outlet you'd like to

purchase it at. I should note my wife is opening a bookstore here in the town that we live in, No Way, and that's called it's called Make Belief Books. You should come and read. You should do a reading at the bookstore. Actually just occurred to me, that's amazing. This is if you're ever out in the New York area. We're just outside the setting. I am. Yeah, we're very excited.

So cool. Oh, congratulations to her. That's amazing. I literally have spent the last several months building shelves for the bookstore. So um, it's very thrilling. Oh wow, I'm so excited. That's great anyhow, But May twenty third, your book is out, Yes, you have a lot going on. What are some other things that people should be looking out for that you're

working on or that you're doing right now? Sure. Yeah, I've got a new podcast coming out in June that hasn't quite been announced yet, but it's about a political scandal that happened in Alaska. Are we allowed to talk about that? Is that? Are you under NDA that? I can say that, but I can't say much more than that right now. But yeah, it's it's the next um reported podcast that I worked on. It's about Alaska. And then over this summer I wrote on Star Trek Lower Decks. Oh,

on Paramount Plus. That was really fun and um yeah, I think that that comes out in like July and August. So I thought I was worried for a second. You're gonna be like I worked on the Big Bang Theory reunion show or something like, Yeah, I really want to bring it up, but uh no, I worked on I worked on a Star Trek show, which is wild because I didn't know very much about it. But oh really, you're not You're not a Trekkie. You're not a Star

Trek fan. I mean I am now, but prior to coming in I had I mean I watched it growing up, but I didn't have my obsessive brain did not latch on to Star Trek facts. But it was fun because once it was you know, once it's in front of you, there's it's a crazy universe CD charcutery board. Yeah, so much to jump into it's great, that's fantastic. Um, first off, you do have to come here and into a book reading.

You should definitely do that. If you get out to the chasm, you've got to come back because there's so much more that we could talk about and h and I just I found this conversation totally fascinating. I have to say, like the conversation about just mental health and dealing with it. I mean I've like touched on it a little bit here and there, like I made jokes about having ADD, but I haven't had a lot of like very candid conversations about I don't usually talk about

it very much. So like I enjoyed having that back and forth. So this is like super helpful. I mean honestly, I was like, my partner has ADD and sometimes it I feel like like a d D and OCD kind of chaf in a weird way sometimes where you're just oh, I'm sure, like it's helpful for me to talk to other people with ADD because I'm like, yeah, totally like it. Just like I don't know, it's interesting, No, it's fascinating. Anyhow, Jamie,

thank you so much. This was awesome and you got to come back and do it again sometimes I would love that. Thank you for having me well, Jamie is the best I have to say. And and what a sprawling, strange conversation in the way. I did not think we were going to be talking about as much as we did end up talking about. I feel like I've exposed myself in a way that was, you know, fairly cathartic.

Getting back to my original comment about my own talent, I may have met my match and Jamie because I feel like it's like I was being interviewed in some parts of this in some moments. But it was good. You know, read the book. That's all I can say. It's fascinating, well worth your time. Now I have to go. I'm actually starving. We talked about hot dogs so much that I started to think, like I do want to eat one, which is a testament to the power of the dog. Anyhow, that is our show for this week.

We'll be back next week with more what future, And as always, I wish you and your family very, very, very very best.