The AI Future Is Overhyped. Why Bitcoin Still Matters | Junseth

If something comes along and improves the world 2%, you now have a world that doubles 36 years faster than it used to be. Bitcoin is a global project. People that have dreams for it, it's very selfish. Their dreams are going to be very small compared to what Bitcoin does. Don't fall into the trap of the autistic bedroom dweller telling you his dream for the world and how he's about to achieve it. You don't have to live in that world. You can elect not to.

Bitcoin needs to be used primarily for its function of transferring value from place to place right now, such that that is the number one reason that someone wants to use the blockchain. And until then, we will have a million attack vectors. Mr. Junset. Aye. We are on. Have you seen, you were obviously on the show maybe three years ago, talking about how- This is for me, obviously. Yeah, you've got your sippy cup ready. It was whiskey when you were on the show last time. Now it's sippy cups.

It was whiskey and guns. But you were on the show a few years ago. Look at you eating all your baby snacks. Well, I love baby snacks. This is actually what I buy now when I go to the store. I put things into sippy cup bottles so I can drink them later. I don't want to be the one to dox it, Jenseth, but I feel like you have. You've got your kid in the room. Yeah, my little baby's here. Having a fun time walking around, seeing the cameras? She might make an appearance if she's brave.

She has no idea what's going on. But last time, not last time, but a few years ago when you were on the pod, did a show about how the metaverse isn't real.

Yeah. Have you seen they've closed down the metaverse? What metaverse? It wasn't real. Well, the company that named themselves after the metaverse. They've closed down their metaverse. Well, that's not surprising because it never really existed in the first place. It's one of the latest narratives in crypto world to die. It's really easy to make predictions when you're just saying true things. You know, the metaverse stuff was funny. I remember debating someone.

They told me that the amazing thing about the metaverse was that very soon, Boeing is going to be able to stop making airplanes. Because why would you need to go there? And that we will be able to just walk into an airplane in the virtual world, fly somewhere, and land and get to see any place we want. And I said to this person, well, why use an airplane? Why not a Star Trek transporter then?

And they just kind of froze because they hadn't considered that maybe in the metaverse you don't need an airplane. I was like, why spend like three hours flying to a place that's virtual when you could just transport there? No, you've still got to go through TSA. Sir, please. You have metal in your pockets. The thing that was insane to me about that narrative is how they thought you could take any kind of human touch out of an interaction. Like they thought that it could be the same.

Me and you sat here with our VR headsets on and it feel the same as us being sat here. I don't know what the kind of, what was going on? What were people actually thinking? I think this was like brain rot after COVID.

it. It used to be that the world was imagined by people who were grounded and had a sense of wonder about the future. And now the world is imagined by a bunch of autistics who want nothing, who think that the best state of the world is one wherein you live in your bedroom and never come out. and human interactions are superfluous like food in Silicon Valley. You know what I mean? Like it's the, what's that? The green drink or whatever it was from that movie. What's this?

Where they drink the people. Oh, I do know what you mean. So I was talking to, I think this is where- What's that called? I don't know. Do you want me to look it up? Yeah. I can't think of what that was called. They have a product that they make of it too. It's like a soy, like milk thing. Let's see. All the energy you'd ever need. Soylent green. Soylent. What was that? Is that what it was called? Or is that what the fake one is? Soylent. It was both. I mean, they named Soylent after Soylent.

So yeah, the whole world is like, it's like Soylent, but in like human interaction sense. Like you, you just, the world's imagined by people who think the best state of the world is living in your bedroom and not seeing beautiful things and not experiencing art, you know, for the sake of, you know, there's a whole lot of things that have always existed that you can do, that you could do virtually, that are virtually identical to doing the real

thing, going to a concert, listening to a CD, for example. And people have decided that it is a better world where I can go to a concert and watch the person who I love to listen to the CD of perform the music live. And there's a whole class of people that we've given a whole bunch of power to for some reason who view the world as, or who view those people who believe those things as insipid and as, as, uh, as

uncomfortably imaginative, I guess. And I view those people as, as normal. And I think you would have too. Yeah. And the thing is that there's like an infection that I've noticed that has occurred in, in humans where we take this class of people who believe that living inside their bedroom is the best state of the world. And it seems like it infects all of our analyses all over. Everyone I

talk to talks about AI as if it's going to replace every single job. They talk about the great future in which we'll all be embedding chips in our brain and sitting in chairs in the matrix. And I just don't see that as an interesting world. And I don't think that they would see that as an interesting world. And I don't see how you end up from here to there without convincing people that it's an interesting world. As humans, we still have to be, we still have to elect to live in the

world that we build. There's so much in that. So I do want to come back to the AI taking jobs, but before we do, like, do you think the world, like the world is dictated by like the genius autist coders at the moment, because like everything comes out of the big tech company. No, the world is not dictated by them. The imagination is captured by them. That's what I'm saying is like, they don't make the world. They, they're the ones that make stupid products

and say that everyone's going to like this amazing product in Bitcoin. We saw it for years. We had Slocket and like all sorts of other retarded things that people made and proposed. And I was like, you know, always viewed as this person who was just so amazing in terms of understanding what wouldn't, wouldn't work. But like they, I knew that nothing would work because it was stupid.

And like, it's the same way nowadays, you know, but you can't say the big tech companies haven't work like it's not that the big tech companies haven't worked it's that it's that the the augmentation of the world we live in is like a good thing things that allow us to better connect can you know maybe be good and good enhancements to your life or my life but a world where like every single every single young kid has anxiety about how many likes they get on a post i think

you and i both would agree that that is not an optimal world to live in absolutely and i think that those kids that have the anxiety would agree that if there were an alternative, which there is. You just don't go on social media. Yeah. If there were an alternative, they would prefer the alternative. And so the imagination is captured by these autistic idiots who don't understand human interaction. But we as humans,

again, still have to elect to live in the world they're imagining. And I don't think that there's support for that. See, I wonder if AI really changes that. So I was speaking to Jesse Posner, who, I don't know if you know him, working on Vora with Eric Kaysen at the moment. They're doing a load of AI stuff. And he was saying the interesting change that's going to happen is that the world

is no longer created, for example, social media by these genius coders at Silicon Valley. It's going to be the philosophers and the English majors that are now going to be the best actually implementing ideas, because all you have to do is use language to talk to these AI models. And who's better at language than those people. That's dumb. Why? Because... Let me just help you out there.

He told me it was a death trap, Abigail. Come here, hon. You're doxing yourself now. We nearly lost the camera, but we're okay.

Okay. So it's dumb because the language of every single industry is not best spoken by an English major the language of art is going to be spoken by someone who is well versed in art and maybe has an art history major i mean he included the artists the creatives they're the people great talking about but the language of like i don't know science is best spoken by a scientist like i i i've done some things in chat gpt and these other llms where i'm making things using

them for making various things that I sell just for fun. I have these little projects I do. And I won't tell you how many times they have given me formulations that if I were to mix them together, they would cause a giant explosion. And then when I ask it- Do you mean unintentionally or intentionally? It tells me that just mix these two things together. And then I'll be like, that'll explode. And I'll be like, oh, yeah, that it will. Yeah. Potentially, yes. I think you can argue that's down to

inputs as well. Okay, so we'll give that to an English major. Let the English major parse that out then. But did you see the guy in Australia? I don't know how true this is because it was on Twitter, but the guy whose dog had cancer. And then he cured his dog's cancer with the... I heard about this.

So he sequenced the genome and then fed it into some LLM, got it to come up with the mRNA vaccine and created the vaccine, went through the regulations, gave this dog the vaccine, and it seemingly has done a good job at like reducing the cancer. Sounds like mRNA might actually be incredible. I think we always knew that though, right? But like, okay, so what we have here is regulatory hurdles that prevent mRNA from being incredible.

We have LLMs that will take all of the mRNA research and tell you what to do. We also have scientists that can do that stuff. And like, this isn't a world, like what's neat is the DIY chemistry stuff. Like a lot of that DIY chemistry and DIY everything. I mean, I set up a chemistry lab in my own house. What happened to the wood shop? I have a wood shop in my own house. I have a chemistry lab. I have a wood shop. I have, you know, everything I can. You know, I have toys and whatever that I enjoy.

But I have a daughter that I want to, like, have her be allowed to touch and do everything that she can possibly do. so she can learn the language of the world. And the language isn't like Chinese or Spanish or anything like that. It's like the language of chemistry and the language of biology and the language of computer science and all of these things. All of that language is going to actually help you to actually navigate, whether it's LLMs or whatever it is in the future.

I don't really view the LLM space as AI per se. It's just language models. They're just, you know, output machines. If you already self-custody Bitcoin, you know the deal with hardware wallets. Complex setups, clumsy interfaces, and a seed phrase that can be lost, stolen, or forgotten. Well, BitKey fixes that. BitKey is a multi-sig hardware wallet built by the team behind Square and Cash App.

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That's ledn.io forward slash WBD. So when you look at like, I guess what you project the future to be with these LLMs, with AI, you said you don't think it's going to take every job. I think every job is a stretch for anyone, but like, I think it's going to replace a lot of jobs. And especially those jobs tend to be, at least at first, white collar jobs.

Like it's the computer programmers, it's going to be the lawyers, the accountants, like these, this is going to be like incredibly disruptive. Do you think it's all, do you think we're going to move to a better future, even if we have like a huge interim period where it's very painful for people? Or do you think we're going to see some like revolt against technology? I don't know. I tend to live my life as a Luddist and the first, so it doesn't really bother me anyway, which way it goes.

And as to whether we end up having a revolt with people or whether there actually is this incredible transition that everyone's predicting, I don't know. I think the thing about transition in history, I think, shows us this, is that we as humans do fine with tumultuous transitions as long as they're slow. And we— But this isn't going to be slow. I don't think you're right. I think that—I think it will be very slow comparatively. I think it's going to be... What makes you think that, though?

Because you look at the sort of the charts of how good these LLM models are getting, and it's basically exponential at the moment. So how can that be slow? Because it's just... Everything just takes longer than you think. It's kind of like the humanoid robots. Everyone is telling me we were going to have by now that we don't have.

you know um and i don't think that we'll ever have them i think that those will probably i i was talking to someone a couple months ago saying that like i don't think that humanoid robots are the answer i think it's going to be specific task robots that you know yeah and that's just that's my prediction like i don't think that there's any reason why it has to look like a human like you know i think that a robot built to sweep my floors is going to be way better at sweeping my

floors and like a general purpose human robot. I mean, I have one of them. I have a robot vacuum. And it's terrible. I mean, it's better than you because it does it every day. Well, that's the thing is like, there's just like reality in which if you've had one of these robots, you know,

okay, your robot does a job that is 10% as good as your job, but it does it every day. So after two weeks, you look at the floor and you're like, this is 400% better than it is when I take care of it yep but like in like an aggregate sense it's better but in an like an individual like i just vacuum the floor sense it's heinous 100 right and that's how all these are same with my like my my my uh my mower same thing it's you have a robot mower oh yeah it does a five percent as good a job

as i do five percent and only an aggregate like after a week is it as good as as mine You know, dad is pretty good, too. She doesn't want that. Do you want peanuts down there, hon? I think this is the most wholesome show I've ever done. Yeah, well, peanuts here. Uh-oh. You can have peanuts. Mommy can make sure you don't choke on them. There you go. So, yeah, I think in aggregate, the mower does about a 5% as good a job as I do mowing the lawn.

But because it does it every day, now my lawn is mowed. Did you see the humanoid robot thing that came out maybe six months ago or something, where it was sold as this thing that was going to do all the tasks around your house? It looked like a human. It could do the dishwasher. And it turned out it was being driven by someone with a VR headset in another part of it. You can always expect that, though.

Nothing. I have a rule in my life, which is that no innovation will ever change the world more than 2%. Even Bitcoin? Nothing. You don't think Bitcoin has changed the world by more than 2%? No, not efficiency. I think it will, like, I think maximum, like, Bitcoin could do, like, a big 2%. Like, that's a huge, think about it this way. Like, if something comes along and improves the world 2%, you now have a world that doubles 36 years faster than it used to be. It's pretty big. It's huge.

So, like, every 36 years, you'll have another doubling based on the 2% change. Like, 2% is a lot. People don't realize that. I think last time we spoke, you said Bitcoin's not done anything yet. Yeah. Do you feel like it has at this point? No. No, not yet. I find that really hard. It's just, it's jumped in value. Like, what has it done? We haven't done anything yet. It's done, but it has done things for people. It's made people rich.

No, no, and it's helped people escape dictatorships and autocratic regimes. Well, that's what it does. That's it? That's what it does. Yeah. No, that is a thing that Bitcoin does. Makes people rich and helps people escape. Well, Bitcoin goes in your prison wallet and helps you escape autocracy, oligarchy, whatever, arcy you're living under, right? Bitcoin is good at being transported. That's the function of Bitcoin, right? You memorize some things in your head and it moves from place to place.

Incredible. Helps you escape fiat debasement? Yeah. So it has done things. If that's a thing that if we're considering that doing a thing, then yeah. Okay. So when you say that- It moves value. That's what Bitcoin does. Like that's, I'm not, I'm not like, I'm not, I don't want to take away from that. What I mean is like, is Bitcoin, is Bitcoin doing like, like, are we seeing banks use it and governments grab it?

And like is it really changing the world Like getting people out of like bad situations they could stick gold up their butthole or they can stick Bitcoin up their butthole Bitcoin is better And especially especially over shorter periods of time where it like a little you know we can get it in get it out, sell it. It's highly liquid. It doesn't, you don't have to go to your local coin shop and take a 10% VIG on it, right? Like Bitcoin is better at that. That's a thing. It's

way better at getting in and out of countries. You could literally, you know, mine your way out of Venezuela or something like that if you had to. Although now we don't have to worry about Venezuela. They're fine. But I'm not sure they're fine. They're fine. They might be in a slightly better situation. I'm not sure they're fine. Good job done. Mission accomplished. Is there something

that you would look at and be like, okay, that Bitcoin is real now? I think if governments were were kind of doing like mini war with Bitcoin, that would be kind of an interesting thing.

like uh fighting over i think if we um i think if bitcoin were used more in like transactions for like arms and maybe higher crimes i don't know but arms deals and other such things maybe that would be i i don't know i just i just feel like i look at it and bitcoin's kind of it's just boring bitcoin's boring it's not it's not that's not a bad thing it's a good thing i always joked about it i said if bitcoin were universal so like we we have you know these meetup groups down here we had

them the bitcoin were universal it would this meetup group would be like having the like uh greenback money club it'd just be like very very stupid uh just passing around dollar bills yeah and you know i like exactly like look at this dollar man like that's cool and like i i feel like we're just i i'm not gonna have a strong sense that bitcoin's done something until we're at the

stage where like we're doing that kind of thing. I think the ETFs are a really big thing. I think the like acceptance generally for Bitcoin in everyday life and such is a really big thing. I think the fact that the shit coins are still around is a bad thing. Yeah, but are they even like that relevant anymore? I feel like the sort of-

Well, they've piggybacked on a lot of the Bitcoin stuff and like nobody knows, right? Like for example, like you have ETH ETFs and you have Ripple, I'm sure ETFs and you know, whatever.

like you have all of these things that are just kind of like piggybacking on the the the the sort of like footsteps that bitcoin's forged and they're just kind of they're just a few months behind it it would seem and also no one really cares about them like the the treasury companies like who's talking about them bitcoin tina is he he called me up once and he goes you gotta get this big picture of this theory company i said that's so stupid i'm not doing that

i put ten dollars and just took track it oh is he just trying to make it all back in one trade no what he's doing i i've told him before to just like like i don't think everyone knows what bitcoin t is but i've uh i get a kick out of it because like like i i think i think for him he needed to reduce his like Bitcoin stack because he's an older guy. And, uh, and now like I just, he's, he's, he just really loves reading market news and following ideas. And I just think he's

a really bad trader. I would be too. I don't trade though. I just, I don't have any Bitcoin, but of course not. Never have. Um, when did Bitcoin get boring then? Cause like, even since I've come in, it's, I mean, it's changed massively in since you, were you like 2011? I was a week after pizza day. So I think that's 2010, but I'm not sure. So you've seen everything. I've seen everything. And it definitely hasn't always been boring.

Well, you know, it's funny because at the time I didn't think I'd seen everything at the time. I thought it was late. I mean, that's insane. That's how everyone felt at every stage of entering Bitcoin. It doesn't matter when you got here. Every single person has felt like they missed everything and that they're late. I felt that way. I couldn't believe how late I was to this like cool project.

It's weird to be in the position now that I'm considered an OG because when I got here, there were people that had been here before. Yeah, but the longest they could have been before you is like 18 months. But it still felt the same. It felt exactly the same.

And back then we celebrated things like when Bitcoin Magazine was in a few Barnes and Nobles that was when vitalik had it well i guess so i guess that's the story um when matthew and right this is pre uh pre-acquisition by bitpay or tony galipi matthew and right was one of the big guys on there i don't remember vitalik really being uh anything other than kind of a staff writer and i think maybe they gave us equity but maybe i'm wrong there's there's some history of that that

I'm not sure exactly how that worked, but Matthew and Wright and a few other guys, Matthew's kind of like disappeared from the community after the pirate scandal. But yeah, that got in. Bitcoin magazine was put into some Barnes and Nobles. I remember going and buying issue one at Barnes and Noble, if it was issue one or two. And just couldn't couldn't believe that my like teeny tiny project had like made it done enough to get into Barnes and Noble.

So I guess the news around Bitcoin has been exciting before, but now it just kind of turned into CNBC financial news. Before, it felt like we were building a business at one time as a giant community of people. Does it feel in any way like it's failed to become what you thought it was going to be? No. I never had any expectations.

I wasn't a libertarian who thought we were going to take over the world. I would say that the way that Bitcoin has gone has been closer to their predictions than I thought it ever would be. It's been faster than I think they ever thought. The idea that you have this asset that you've created out of thin air that is sort of like, I don't know, it's sort of like going through Pennsylvania, right? And discovering that the Indians are finding this juice coming out of rocks.

And then you're like, oh, that's interesting. And you're like, you're like, it lights on fire. Interesting. And you pull it out of the ground, you fill up barrels. And then you're like, huh, I wonder what the fuck this does. And then over time, like it replaces like oil lamps. And over time, it replaces, you know, and then all of a sudden there's a use for it because we have like the automobile arrives. Right.

And you derive like all sorts of things from it, including what goes in there to lubricate like gasoline and whatever. Right. So there's there's that sort of thing. And I think that's kind of how Bitcoin is oil in your computer, right? We don't really, like it was discovered there by Satoshi Nakamoto. There's an asset in there. We didn't really know how to quantify the asset. He did it with some numbers and some algos to like pull it out. And now it's like, oh, there's an asset in my computer.

Well, what is it useful for? It's kind of like money, like this thing that we've theorized. We've made these proximate things that we call money that are like money. that have the features of a thing that we think money has. And so there's this thing in the computer digitally that looks like what we have theorized exists, which is money. It's kind of like oil in that it's an asset we've never touched. And we're just kind of looking like, what does it do? And maybe it is money. Maybe it is.

We don't know yet exactly because it's just kind of like sitting there in your computer doing its thing. And we are just holding it and just watching it and seeing what smarter people than us do with it. So you don't worry at all about this idea of co-option, what Bitcoin could have been?

No. No, that's stupid. No, Bitcoin don't live in the no regrets. Neither does John Seth. But why is it stupid? Because I know you understand the sort of idea around that, that basically it becomes like a walkthrough. It's stupid because there's not one person who's in charge of this.

and there's like maybe you have dreams for bitcoin but your dreams for bitcoin are so stupid and small well i agree with that but like that's everybody everyone's got dreams for bitcoin and their dreams for bitcoin are stupid and small like bitcoin you know like no one could have foreseen the automobile no one maybe some people who are working on it could have foreseen ai maybe some people could have foreseen you know like whatever um nvidia is making chips like bitcoin proceeds like a lot of

this like what happens ethereum uh what i call a scam comes out trying to take a different kind kind of market. It's a stupid market for it to take, but people are mining it. Therefore, NVIDIA is like, we got to make these chips. NVIDIA makes a bunch of chips, gets really, like really valuable on the back of Ethereum. Then all of a sudden AI is announced. We're like, hey, by the way, we need these chips. It's almost like Bitcoin was like created by an AI back.

Well, the government might have had AI back then. Maybe Bitcoin is an AI. And it was like, I need to devise the greatest scheme in history to have NVIDIA make chips so that AI can become a thing in the future. And it only took 15 years really for it. What, 16 years for it to do it? And that would be incredible. But Bitcoin's a global project. People that have dreams for it have dreams for it and they can have their dreams. And it's very selfish.

Their dreams are going to be very small compared to what Bitcoin does. All my dream is that I hope that Bitcoin can always be used as freedom money. that's basically my only dream for Bitcoin. Because that's why I cared about it originally. It's why I still care about it today. I think they're the only properties that I need it to not lose for it to remain interesting. Yeah, but those properties are endemic to it. So the way it would lose them exclusively is through regulation.

But that doesn't change the properties of the thing itself. Yeah. But I guess usability is important. You need to be able to actually use it as freedom money. Maybe. I mean, if you want things to skirt regulation, then maybe recruit some anarchist UI developers. I mean, they're here. That's for sure. It's just that everyone's going to work toward the regulatory thing being prettier and better. And the hard thing is always going to be uglier and harder.

Yeah. I like throwing these narratives at you because you just basically say everything's dumb. Everything is dumb. But do you think Bitcoin will be the money of AI? AI is really dumb. No, I'm kidding. I'm just kidding. Will Bitcoin be the money of AI? I don't know. Maybe Tether will be the money of AI. It depends on what AI wants. If it's looking for stable currency to trade in, Tether is probably a better option for now than Bitcoin. But Tether runs on Bitcoin. And other blockchains.

Yeah, but started on Bitcoin. Bitcoin is where all of this experimentation began, and it went to other blockchains for marketing purposes. And then eventually for liquidity.

you know if you believe as i do that like the liquidity collapse like that liquidity collapses to bitcoin eventually like tethers on bitcoin right and so you know to me like maybe maybe tether maybe bitcoin i don't know i could see a world where it's both at least in the short period it's ai so like there's no reason it can't just use credit cards and well there is ach because like if it tries to buy something on a website with a credit card and it hits a security check

what does it do well i mean i think the internet's going to change see i think this is what's going to happen with ai i don't think that like i don't think that you're going to necessarily like everyone's going to lose their jobs but i think the internet's going to fundamentally change i think the internet is going to become like heavily botted oh yeah for sure advertisements are going to be two ais you know uh websites might end up being like there might be entire sections of the

internet that are just like blocks of code but it's just ap just api calls back and forth kind of i mean like ai doesn't need amazon to show them a picture of pretty shoes to buy them so if you if you have an agent if that is like if we go agentic in the future here where like everyone's got their own personal agent um which i think is not gonna work today but it's just because it's too hard it's just way too hard these things are expensive like unless

you have unlimited funds you're not going to be able to go like have a have have a good agentic experience but might change in a year so if we're going to go agentic like if that actually is happening you're not going to necessarily be doing a lot of your grocery shopping you know so why does Instacart need to have like a picture of the raspberries, you know, for you to buy them.

I don't know. So I don't know exactly. But like to me, as I'm watching traffic trends change on the internet, particularly with regard to ads, like it used to be that bots were taking over the web. And, you know, for whatever reason, people were just crawling, crawling, crawling, but that there was enough traffic of real people. I would say nowadays, I'm hearing and looking at like websites, content websites with 60, 40, 60 to 80% traffic from AIs, at least in the short term,

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And if you want to find out more and download the app, just search for Club Orange on your app store or go to cluborange.org. But does that not get to the point where the internet just becomes unusable? if there's trillions of AI agents on there just publishing whatever? Because like Twitter already, like the bots on Twitter are insane. I mean, the Ouroboros effect. What's that? Ouroboros is a snake eating its own tail, right?

So like at the point AI is consuming AI content and then using that to train AI, I don't know what you end up with because you might end up with something incredible or you more than likely end up with something inscrutable and stupid. and it happens real quick because AI just can make a lot of bad content really quickly. So I don't know. I don't know. I've been wondering about that since the day it started because the first thing I heard is everyone's going to not have jobs.

I'm like, well, then that means AI is going to be the only thing writing, and if AI is the only thing writing, then AI is the only thing training AI. Which is already kind of happening. AI models are training the next AI models. Yeah, but they're training it with data that existed before. So it's just the problem is if the entire internet becomes like, AI is philosophizing to themselves about religions that they can follow. It's really weird.

I guess that's the point where AI then over time just gets worse, not better. Yeah, I think so. I think it just gets worse and worse. It doesn't improve at that stage. Whereas if it's practicing on... I think AI in some sense needs to interact with the real world. if AI is purely digital and interacting with digital world only then it's going to be very difficult for it to become better

I think that's often true of the Bitcoin stuff and again this is the autistic living in his room dream I just live on the internet and become better and if you don't interact with the real world you become better at coding maybe but like nothing, you don't become better at baseball. You don't become better at understanding like what people like or enjoy or, you know, whatever. And that's, I think that it's going to be very difficult for AIs if they don't operate in the real world as well.

So this is like the idea that for AI to actually get to sort of AGI, it needs to have some sort of plain pleasure response. Depends on what you mean by AGI because like eight months ago, AGI meant that AI was the singularity. and I then said, AGI will never happen. And now AGI means that like, it's like a little better than it is now. So when you say, what do you mean? Maybe like super intelligence is a better word or, you know, I think you can't go as far as- How do you define super?

Cause like it can beat everybody in chess, right? Yeah, and it's really hard cause like you almost want to say conscious but it's not going to be conscious. But like, I guess perpetually self-improving, I think it needs a pleasure response to have like the right incentives. It needs to go out into the world and experience things, I feel. And that's where the AI robots get more interesting.

Like imagine if every AI robot was like its own sort of self-hosted LLM that reported back to the mothership type thing. Then it would have its own unique set of experiences. And I think that's where it can truly be considered like super intelligent AI, whatever term you want to put on that. Would you call this like a Borg of sorts? I guess.

I think in some ways, like I, I, I see these like futurists, like Rick Hertz, while talking about how the world is going to be and they're perpetually incorrect, perpetually nothing they think is going to happen has ever occurred. And yet Google pays them massive amounts of money to come and speak as if they're like an alien from outer space explaining to you for the first time what the future of the world will be. But someone's got to have a swing. Everyone can't

just be like, I swing all the time and I'm just so right. So off this stuff. I like, I, I, I think with like this, this AI stuff, I have a lot of difficulty because there's, we're clearly seeing some new stuff come on. I do think AI is potentially as revolutionary as the internet. however revolutionary you think that was. Very. Yeah, but I don't know that it achieved everybody's dreams, right?

So I keep getting called an AI bear because I like instead of the internet basically putting every single person out of a job making every single digital everything you know obsolete whatever

maybe it'll end up in like a, you know, place where you buy pants and shoes, you know, for the most part, and then, you know, allow us to communicate and, you know, whatever. So there's, there's great things the internet has done, incredible opportunities. It's opened up, you know, amazing efficiencies. And, and it's made us a better, better as a society in some ways and worse in others, like the consequences of it, I think we have not necessarily fully dealt with, nor like

seen what they fully are. Right. Are you really talking about social media here?

I guess I like, to me, that's sort of like a small, I'm honestly, like, I, I think outsourcing the ease of outsourcing yeah the reduction of quality like have you ever used a phone from the 90s how old are you uh i'm 30 nearly 35 so barely yeah the i think the first phone i had was a nokia 3310 you mean a cell phone yeah okay oh do you mean like a natural like house like landline yeah oh yeah of course i use one yeah copper to copper yeah it's uh it's not digital

right it's analog the quality is like you're standing next to the person yeah there's not you're not like i can't hear you your signal's bad you know that stuff yeah we sacrificed like high fidelity for bad fidelity talk to people anywhere and so there's consequences to that is it better i think we've all decided it is there's consequences and that's like a lot of a lot of life is like that where we've given up

quality for like sort of anywhereness furniture i want to move 42 times before i'm 38 so i buy a hundred dollar furniture and instead of like ordering a craftsman home from sears that has the furniture built into the walls you know what i mean and that lasts 135 years before it like ever needs to be looked at again. I know this is, you're going to, again, you're going to call me dumb here, but like, I think there is. I really call you dumb. There is like a fiat element to that as well, though.

Like when you consider how expensive, like handcrafted. That's dumb. Yeah. But like, when you consider how expensive like a handcrafted table is compared to like the average salary, and then you compare that to like my parents' generation, there's a big difference there. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I think there is, but I think that it's not just. Wait, like, why can't they go? But it's also, it's the loss of craftsmanship.

a handicrafted table used to be made by your grandpa exactly like that's not true like it you can still go get lumber from home depot you could make a 1990s era red oak table uh for maybe 800 in wood i think you're right there because like my dad could build a nice table i couldn't yeah i mean you could if you watch enough pornography about videos uh woodworking though yeah true yeah it's like the whole world now just learns everything that's that's actually the

The interesting thing, like it's, it's the sort of information has been democratized. Like you can go on YouTube and watch, I'm sure there's tens of thousands of videos of how to make a really nice table, but no one does it. Yeah. Or very few people. It's because it's porn. It's titillating, especially to men. It's pornography. Yeah. So like you want to make a, you want to make an heirloom table. You can watch someone go make an heirloom table and fantasize about how you would do it too.

See, mine is a, the people that go out into like the woods in Alaska and camp with nothing. I've never, I've never done it. I never want to do it, but that's the thing I watch. That's your titillating pornography. But now you know how to do it. That's true. Yeah. Although I stick me in that situation, I'm dead in a week. You can learn in two ways. You can have generational knowledge passed down through the generations by the old folks. Or you can learn through pornography.

And I think the latchkey generation and many others after it learned their sex from Playboy and other places.

and uh you know the modern day child is learning sex from you know ex hamster and and you porn and porn tube and porn hub and i mean you know all of them obviously these are we discussed this earlier a longer list than i did and so so like you can learn you can learn sex through watching people have it uh which is what like the modern generation has done and it's the same with everything else it's just you you can learn from the old generations you can learn by being hands-on or you can learn

through porn and there are consequences to that so it's not i'm like to the earlier question it's not social media so much that like i'm that worried about like i don't mind you know phone books online which is essentially what like most social media is but i am i'm like i said i'm a ludist i I don't know how to use most social media, to be honest, and I don't really care. Because I just think that the world is made for humans.

Whether you believe in God or not, none of this matters if it's not for our pleasure. And so I don't spend a lot of my time indoors experiencing the pleasure of surfing the internet. Like, I'd rather go into nature and look at it and be amazed and in awe of a thunderstorm that's happening and take care of my yard and trees and plants and stuff like that. I'd rather be tending to my external environment than tending to the environment that I can create internally.

And if there's like automations that I can make that allow me to do that better and more quickly, oftentimes I'll take advantage of those.

Like this morning, I put a gardener out of business with AI. I put a timer on my hose. But so essentially, I started this by saying, do you think people will revolt against this? And actually, AI could be a way off the Internet for a lot of people. AI could be the interface between you and the internet without you having to go on the internet. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying, though. I think that there is a world in which people use AI to go do the things that people used to do.

And I think that that frees up a lot of your own time. And I don't think necessarily, I'm not going to lament the loss of Instacart shoppers or something, but maybe that doesn't get lost, right? Maybe Instacart shoppers remain and maybe Uber drivers remain or maybe eventually they're replaced by actual robots, right? I don't know. Maybe you have a robot kitchen in your house that makes Chef Ramsay-type dishes. That's an American HODL idea to talk about.

But maybe that's the kind of thing that happens. But yeah, I do think that if there's anything really good about AI, it's the promise that you as an individual will have the opportunity possibly to do more interaction with the external world. and I don't think that's what the autists are thinking is going to happen. I think that they think your whole life is going to be like taken over by the AI monster.

Whereas I'm thinking like this sounds, AI sounds to me like the promises that were made to me about IoT. Everyone, every company in the world wanted to be the hub of your home and they all tried. Microsoft, Honeywell, PlayStation, Sony, every. Amazon, Apple. Amazon, Apple, all wanted to be the hub of your home. And then what happened is some of them were made the hub, and they were like, what the fuck are we getting from this? What information are we gleaning? Nothing, nothing, nothing.

And they tried it in the thermostat. They tried it in the home speaker systems. Doorbell. Yeah, in the doorbell. They tried everything. We'll make the doorbell the hub of the home. We'll make whatever it is. Nothing worked. And what people ended up doing is kind of like mishmashing ecosystems together. The true IoT people have really discovered that they maybe want their speaker system on IoT, if you will. They maybe want some plugs on IoT. They like their garage door on IoT.

And then every other thing in their home, they want offline for the most part. Maybe a few extra things, right? But the IOT world was one in which everyone was attached. Your shoes were on the internet. And I was told that was going to be a great world. But then when I heard that, I was like, that's stupid. That's, again, another world created by an autistic retard sitting in his room going, it's better this way. And that's not how the world is. I don't opt to live in that world.

I don't want to replace the batteries in my light switch every four years. because that's fucking gay. But I think the world that you're painting there is very sort of utopian. It sounds great if you don't have to- Which world? I didn't say anything utopian. I was talking about the world remaining a lot like it is. But it's like you're saying everyone will have more time to go outside, touch grass, think, walk, whatever. That's great. But what do they do for their jobs?

Because if it does replace a big portion of white collar work, which I think it has the potential to do. In Australia, you guys can go back to in America, we got other sorts. That's getting cut. I know. That's getting cut. There's always one part of you that gets cut. So in, in, the reality is that when people have more time, Daddy, you can't handle the jokes. I can, but I'm not being associated with the jokes. I feel like I wouldn't be allowed to go to Australia if I tried.

I don't think you're allowed already. So, I mean, the thing is, people have more time. You might get f***ed. I think that's getting cut, too. Which one? Both. Everything's getting cut. The whole thing's cut. No more. I think that when people have a lot of time, you have the ability to do more things and think about more things. I think people underestimate the need for men to create, in particular. Like I'm often called a sexist, but I just believe men and women are really different people.

And men. I think they're different people. What's that? I think they're different. Yeah. I'm not saying that like women. It's not one's better, one's worse, but they're different. Being a man is more awesome. You know, external pudenda is awesome. It's just like less showering, you know? So like, you know, the thing is like, Men have a drive that forces them to be, to produce.

That drive is hot chicks. And I think like for whatever reason, it seems like a lot of that motivation has been reduced over the last couple, last few years. And I don't know what the reason is, but like a lot of men have abandoned attempting to like impress hot chicks anymore. But I do think that there's a world in which a lot of that motivation comes back because it's biological. And I think if there's more time to be outside and do things, men are going to create more things.

And they might, the good ones are going to use AI to do it, right? Like, I talk regularly about like my own little projects. I have lots of little projects that I do just for fun for myself. But I enjoy scaling things. I make a wood finish.

in my garage I know exactly how long it takes me to make it I know how many I can make with like a you know whatever size whatever I make right and so I'll make it in my garage with my recipe I know that it takes me 30 minutes to make X number of you know jars and I sell it for X amount this much profit is how much I get I don't do anything like that unless I'm making $500 an hour but i sell eight a month you know for a profit of you know 13 a thing right but

all of my hours combined are 500 an hour and if i had 15 little jobs like that then i would be you know making 500 an hour from 15 jobs maybe the future is everyone's got 45 jobs Maybe they're growing tomatoes and selling them at Trader Joe's. I don't know. But if everyone's got time, then we can think of things to do. I'm not worried about that. Like, that's what everyone's like, what are we doing? Everyone's out of a job. We know what to do when everyone's out of a job. Go make a job.

But see, that's not the part that necessarily worries me. It's the part that is like the step between here and there. Because if like you said, you don't think it's going to happen fast. I think it is going to happen fast. If it does, and we have 5% of the country unemployed, then 5% of the country are now no longer servicing debt. What does that do to the economy? I think if people can't afford their mortgage, then do we go into a 2008-style financial crisis? Do we have UBI? What happens there?

All these things are like punctuations. You have a punctuated three to five-year period. They're not. They're three to five years. We have the Great Recession. Were you jobless during the Great Recession? I was like 17. Okay. Were your parents jobless? I did have a job, but... You had a job during the Great Recession at 17. Your parents? I was washing pots. What about your parents? My dad had his own business, kept the business, definitely did worse during it. Yeah. But you had a job.

Do you know a lot of other people that were jobless or most of the people that you knew? I know people that lost homes or had to at least downsize homes. Okay. They did downsize. Not that tragic, to be honest. I mean, see, the tricky thing here is like, I was like lucky. I was amongst like, I went to private school. I had like- Most people are though. Most people, I don't know. Is that true? Like by definition, can that be true? Yes, it's true.

Most people are in like a privilege enough, like at least of the people that, you know, in these societies that are producing and doing things.

Yeah. Yeah, the eaters, the eaters might lose their jobs, but like a lot of people are producers and and they will find work i'm not too worried about it like i i remember reading in uh an article by um it was eb white talking about how he lived through the um great depression is the editor of the new yorker at the time and saying that like he barely noticed it was happening which you know you read the history of it like how could you not

notice this was happening in the reality is that like i look back at the 2008 financial crisis i graduated into it got a job lived in new york like got a crappy place like every kid who gets a job in new york out of college does lived on top of someone's kitchen in like a four by five by eight foot like like hollow and a futon bed that they pushed up there for me and they needed some help so i rented it for 550 a month which i didn't have um so this is like you know the story of

every major depression is that like there's a bunch of people who can't get work or can't find jobs or lose their jobs and and it sucks for like a portion of people but it's not that it's it's not But the tricky thing there is, like, what happened? We know what happened to the wealth divide since then, and it's only got worse. And you're lucky in that situation, because I guess about that time is when you found Bitcoin, not long after, at least.

And so, like, you have had a very unusual experience post-financial crisis, whereas most people have comparatively got poorer compared to the people, like- I don't think that's true. I just don't think that's true.

Like, I think that, like, in the last couple of years with, like, great inflation, that's true but we had like 10 years of really low inflation before that which you know made people comparatively rich look at the s p 500 for the last 10 years but these are all the asset owners you ever done the math of put like put money into like tqqq five ten thousand dollars in 2010 how much money you have today i don't know a lot how much 10 000 in 2010 uh 15 years

500 000 i think it's like i think it's like two million dollars yeah that's really triple levered QQQs or something. But again, this is always focusing on the people that like can buy assets. It's $5,000. Yeah. There's a lot of people in America that don't have $5,000 spent.

There's people that are bad at managing money. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not like, I'm not like, I don't find it that interesting to like discuss like the, uh, discuss people that like can't manage their money because like, yeah, those people are going to be like maybe out of jobs, but they don't have that important jobs. And they're like not managing themselves. But even if you don't think they have important jobs, like it does matter to society. Yeah. Well, it depends.

It depends on what they're doing. Not even that the job necessarily matters to society. They're not creating the jobs. Someone else is going to come along. Someone else is going to make a job that they can do. But they're like, if it's a menial job, like they can. But it's not even that the job necessarily matters to society. It's the fact that like the wealth divide matters to society. I think there are less menial job takers than you think.

That's what I'm trying to say is like, there are people that are taking menial jobs. How do I navigate this? Like I've already said things that are so offensive, I feel like. At least you, we all know this. There are people that have menial jobs that will keep them and who can manage themselves, right? Like there's people who work at McDonald's in a menial way and like retire with millions of dollars because they managed their life.

Um, I guess what I'm saying is, is like in a situation where there's turmoil like this, or you think there's going to be turmoil from, from job loss, the people that don't manage their lives now are going to have a lot of trouble navigating that, but they would have trouble navigating every single crisis. And I'm not that worried about them. Cause I think there are more people in the world that are managing themselves enough that we're not going to see like nine,

90% homeless rates across the United States because nobody has a job. You're going to end up with people who are like, I got to feed my family. I'm going to sell peanuts door to door, you know, and they'll do it. Might be back to like the Hoover salesman coming to your door to sell vacuums. I don't know. But I do know that like people figure things out and I don't think that it's going to be as fast as you think or as fast as anybody seems to think, despite the fact

that AI is advancing really quick, we'll see. I don't think that it's going to be like jobs lost as fast as everybody thinks. And the reason is because I think people realize, particularly the very wealthy, that you can't transition so quickly as to have your own house get burned down by the plebeians who are coming and like, you know, burning the beast's gates, right? They know that they have to transition probably over the course of a generation and they will do their best to do

it. And, uh, and a lot of the people that like, I think would be out of jobs here are hitting a retirement age. Like we're like seeing sort of a boomer exodus from the workforce and like the new group of people that are coming up there. A lot of them started working younger. They started programming when they were in like eighth grade, you know, maybe they weren't saving money, but They had well-paying jobs for many years.

And there's a lot of things that might change, but a lot of them are also very aware of the changes that are coming Like when a journalist when you have the entire the entirety of the journalist class lose their jobs you don have riots in the streets That's just like, those are the people that don't riot. Yeah, that's true. When you have computer programmers all losing their job, they're like, good, I don't have to talk to anyone anymore.

You know? So I do think you said something interesting there, which is that like, I think I agree that maybe the people most at risk here are the older workforce, because they're not going to be the ones that necessarily adapt to AI as quickly. Like sweeping statement, but I think generally true. And I think the younger kids, like I've got a kid similar age to you, to your kid, not to you. I think they're going to be all right. You're really old.

I think they're going to be all right, because there's going to be a lot of time to process what happens in the next 10, 15 years. They're going to get to see, like, the world is going to be, like, whatever world develops, it's going to be massively different 20 years from now than it is today. But, like, look at what people predicted 20 years ago. They told us today, 20 years from then, that universities would be dead. Yeah. They told us that oil was going to be gone.

I mean, the Amazon rainforest is going to be completely burned down. Like, none of this happened. Yeah. The same number of people apply to Harvard every year. And I mean, could the universities be gone with AI, though? Your guess is as good as mine, but I'll bet you the chances are about the same. Like you can predict also like institutions have staying power and they have staying power for a lot of reasons. Reputation being one of them.

Like, don't fall into the trap of the like autistic bedroom dweller, like telling you his dream for the world and how he's about to achieve it. It's such a mistake because the world, the perspective on the world you get is so dismal. And like people start telling you things like you, like you never, ever going to have to fly on an airplane again. Like, but do you want that world? If I could teleport, fuck yeah. You don't know, not the teleporter.

Like, do you want the world where you never get to go to South Dakota and see the Badlands with your own two goddamn eyes? Absolutely. Do you want the world where you don't go to the Grand Canyon and look down at it? Like you did. You're just like, wow, what a beautiful VR rendering of the Grand Canyon. It's just like the real thing. Like what a crappy world. And there's just some autistic stream of how you and I will live. And he's so excited about it.

And I'm telling you, I don't elect to live in that world. Me neither. I know you don't. No one does. So why is that the world that like when we talk about things, we talk about AI, we're like, and then it's going to airplanes will crash out of the sky. It's going to be so cool. Like it's not the world that you will elect to live in. Maybe a world in which like you have more free time is when you elect to live in.

But a world where no humans have jobs, nobody's doing any work, no one has any idea what to do. Like you're talking about zombies. Like we're just like, oh, that's the world that AI is going to bring. Oh, great. I elect to live in that. You don't have to live in that world. You can elect not to. And no one elects to live in that world. So that is not what AI will do. It's a really simple rubric. Like AI is going to give us, hopefully, a world that all of us are more desirous of.

And if we take AI and it has consequences that we do not like in 20 years, we will roll them back. Just like we're doing now with immigration or with some of the outsourcing or whatever it is. We're rolling things back because they have consequences. And as we see the consequences, we take back the world for ourselves. and we live in a world that we elect to enjoy because we're the ones for whom it's created. This world is not created for AI robots to enjoy. It's created for you and me.

And if the world is not one that you elect to live in and it's not one that I elect to live in, then what's the point? Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. The thing that does suck though is that narratives matter, at least in the short term.

And I think the generation that are in a really tricky spot right now, the people leaving college now, the, like, I don't know, say 16 to 25 year olds, if they're trying to go into the workforce and all these companies are trying to prepare for this AI world that you're saying may never come, but they're at least preparing for that. Like the jobs that are on offer to them are completely different. Yeah, go make a company. It's never been a better time.

Everyone in your cohort is going to be out of a job because they're all lamenting the coming of AI. Go, I don't know. I mean, I, like when Bitcoin's down, I start companies.

um i just started a trash cleaning business a trash a trash bin cleaning business like all the rage i didn't know this we had a maggots after a party last year and uh and i wanted to get my trash can clean because it was disgusting and i don't want to do it myself because that's gross so i uh so i looked online and i found out that there were like people that did this and i was like this i was like i wonder if this is like a business and Sure enough, there's a few people doing it in a small way.

I was like, you know what? I'm going to try one of these businesses. So I bought a truck, and we've been selling trash bin cleaning services locally in South Florida. That's awesome. Yeah, but what's AI going to do? I mean, you get it to clean your bin. You're going to get AI to clean your bin? Maybe. If I have a robot, maybe. Maybe. Yeah, maybe it will. Maybe it won't. I don't know.

But like, you know, my truck is going to do it better because I have, you know, high pressure water coming out at like 200 degrees, you know, like he's going to clean with a hose. Bleach. There's just like, it's just very, there's tons of jobs out there that you can go make for yourself. You can make them. You don't need a truck. You could do it with a hose. Like I'm only talking about cleaning bins because it's the one that I did. But like my wife wanted to start a nursery.

So I went and I bought a bunch of plants and I put them in our front yard and said, here you go. And then I advertised on Facebook marketplace and now she has a nursery. Like it's going to be a funny mindset shift though, because I don't think most people are entrepreneurial because they think they're just going to get to go to New York and work in finance.

Most people think that as an example, your view of the world is like, you're telling me like my view of the world like everybody's like no no no nobody's getting jobs i mean i think the vast majority of people going like into the working world think they're going to get like a corporate job or be a mechanic i think i think you're right but well there's nothing and there's nothing wrong with that stuff but i'm saying like if you're if the world you're entering is one in which like ai

is taking over that's the narrative that's a short-term narrative and the result of the short-term narrative is that there are no jobs available if you're a man and i'm not saying women can't do it But if you're a man and you want a hot chick, you need to just go make a job. It's not hard. Go make a job. And you're like, well, what am I going to do? I don't know. Buy shoes cheap. Go door to door until you find someone to buy the shoes. I don't care.

Like sell peanuts, sell Diet Coke at like a concession stand. I don't care. But like go work. knowing your cohort is working. So go work, go find work. Work is good. Go find work. I mean, a world of more entrepreneurs is a good world. Become an entrepreneur. So go, go find people with coconut trees in the backyard. If you're

in Florida, pick them and then set up a stand at the side of the road and sell them. Like it's, it is, there are so many opportunities that are not going to be taken by AI, no matter what, at least not in the short term. And if they are in the long term, the world may suck because we want people to do things like it's the commies and the libertarians who are the same thing. They're Ouroboros. The tail is the libertarian and the communist is the mouth, right? They're the same goddamn thing.

They're both of them have the same dream, which is that you're going to sit. I know that you're going to sit there on the side of, of the stream at the end of the day in their perfect world. And you're going to be fishing. which is what you definitely want to be doing as a human. You want to just be fishing all day. That's fun. And that's their dream world. And like, that's cute. And I think that like some of this stuff fulfills that.

It's like, everyone's going to be out of a job and then we're going to all be on UBI. And it's both mine and my communist friend's dream as a libertarian. And that's like exactly what the world that they want is everyone on UBI, like Milton Friedman said.

and um and it just doesn't it's it's a terrible world yep it's a really it is a dismal world i totally agree with that but i think we might have go through a period of ubi yeah they're gonna try it they're gonna it's gonna fail because all all things where human incentives are not aligned with money fail so if we do ubi uh and you give people money to lounge around and do nothing, the program will fail at producing the consequences that you'd like.

Do you think that's a situation where everyone just, or not everyone, a large amount of people just end up drinking themselves to death, doing drugs, like loss of meaning? Could be. I don't see why not. Like in a world where like, if you construct, if you construct the zombie apocalypse is the world that you live in and you elect to live in that world, you're going to have a lot of people eating brains. You know, it's just not, you can't

survive as a, as humanity. If we're electing to live in worlds that we don't want to live in. You've made me feel better about AI. Good. I guess. I don't feel anything about AI. I just like everyone. Do you feel anything? I've been trying to for years. It's like, it's like cut myself. That's getting cut. Why? That's a good joke. I mean, I don't really feel much toward AI. I feel immense love toward my daughter. I feel immense love toward my wife.

I feel love of a different sort towards my friends, toward you. I feel great about the place I live, and I feel wonderful when I'm outside fixing things with my hands or I'm in my garage turning a piece of wood, right? Like the idea that AI is going to come and make me feel worse in that world is nuts. And the idea that it's going to take my job is nuts because I will just create a new job in that world where AI is either part of it or is not. One sec. A. Works for me. All right.

Bye. schedule training on cleaning dumpsters. There you go. See, I think narratives are really important, though. And I think one of the interesting things is that sci-fi for the last 20 years or however long have been that AI is this terrible thing. It's going to kill us all. It's going to take over the world. And hearing someone say that it can be actually kind of restorative is really interesting. Yeah, I think that's...

But I do also have this other belief that either you believe that AI is human or conscience, or you can believe in God. And I think that these are diametrically opposed beliefs. I don't think you can believe them both. Why not? Because in my world, God creates life. It is magical. how it happens. There's insolument and all sorts of amazing things that occur. And consciousness is a gift from the creator in that sense. So then we as humans fiddle-faddle

with our machines, and we create this thing that feels very alive, but isn't. And it feels so alive that many people believe it to be alive. But we can't really do that. So in my world, it is impossible for AI to be alive. It can't be alive. But humans can be. And I think in a world where you believe that AI is alive, it's very difficult to believe in an all-powerful creator because, you know, apparently we can just create life. So. Makes sense. You know, why? What's the point of God?

See, I'm not religious at all, but God couldn't have created the AIs. Why not? God can do anything. But I tell you, if you're not religious, you will believe that AI is real. It's alive. See, I don't at the moment. Not yet. But you will. Again, it's very hard to say what I'll believe in the future. I can't see it, but potentially. I think I'm in a place right now where I think that everyone is going to fall into the two camps. And there will be one side you'll have to take.

And I just think it's inevitable because if the better AI gets, the more real it seems. Yeah, but then it's like, that gets to the point where you think that AI has to have some kind of like human rights treatment and they're equal to humans, which... It's coming. You think? You wait until the debates start. It might be 30 years down the road, but yeah. Yeah, unless I start believing in God, I think I'm going to fade that narrative because I can't see that. Just wait.

Should we talk about Bitcoin? We've done like an hour on AI there. Yeah, let's do it. You're wearing your ocean shirt. Are you a Bit110 guy?

am i a what a bit 110 guy i don't know what that means yes you do no i don't you're such a liar let me let me tell you something i think that right now in bitcoin there's like factions developing and political uh political parties of a sort developing and everybody wants you to take a side and i just couldn't care less uh i'm an ocean investor because I think Ocean is a good money-making opportunity, possibly. I think it's also very good for Bitcoin.

I also think it's very good for Bitcoin to have a mining pool like Ocean. Yep. I'm not always a fan of ideology entering into your business, but it's their business and they get to do what they want with it. And it's not like you invest with Luke Dash Jr. and don't know that he's got an ideology, right? Like, so I think that there's like some, some sort of like political, uh, thing going on here in Bitcoin right now. There's factions developing. And I think that like, it'll probably end up

making Bitcoin better in a weird way. And everyone is going to be surprised by how. Yeah. Because it gets more like, we don't need, this is money for enemies. We don't need to agree on everything. There's this, there's no point. Like I'm glad there's factions. Like who cares?

like let core fight for their like legitimacy always uh core is this amorphous group of programmers that come together and decide on how the bitcoin protocol looks and they could just it could be just as it could be that core you know loses that legitimate like power and that's some other you know implementation takes over it's just like i think that i think that everyone

should always be on their toes in a world like this. Everyone should know that if you put some kind of like bad code into the blockchain, if you put any, any, anything, you'll be found. And it'll be, and apparently the accusations will just go nuts. Like you will be accused of looking at child porn and, you know, jerking it to pictures of, you know, your mom. Which to be fair, like that whole narrative has been very disappointing, but, um, It is what it is. I get what's going on. It's rhetoric.

It's like the worst people at rhetoric playing games of rhetoric. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like they're like, it's like they didn't take the rhetoric class in college. And so they're sitting there like, well, you look at child porn. And you're like, wait, wait, what? Like, uh-huh. And they're like, no, I don't. Oh, yeah. Something like a child porn guy would say. You know, like, okay. Like that's, you know, so it's like two sides of a coin.

Neither side, like core was not prepared for taking political positions because there are a bunch of autistic programmers. And like the other side didn't tell them because there are a bunch of autistic programmers that they were going to start like doing rhetoric. And so it's autistic rhetoric versus like unprepared autists. And it's really funny to me to watch. I'm not disappointed. I sit back and watch the game.

You got to do more of that, like being in the stadium, announcing the game kind of thing. It's like, oh, you're accusing her of watching child porn. Let's see what he's doing. You know what she's doing. And she just kind of like sits there and doesn't know what to do. It's, you know, it's fine. It is what it is. I mean, who does know what to do when you get accused of that? And I do think it's disappointing. You just say no, and then you just move on.

Like you say, then you go, well, that's what they'd say. Yeah, whatever. like do you i think i think that if you're a regular consumer of that content you'll get caught in like not too long a time you know like they'll show up at your house and they'll rage you and everybody will know because it just it is what it is like it just seems it seems like it's difficult to not end up stepping on a lot of giant landmines when you're like searching for that

stuff. I would think it's rife with FBI and CIA or whoever the hell the enforcement agencies are. Yeah. So are you a Bitpontent guy though? Am I a what? Do you support Bitpontent? Come on, you never pull punches.

I don't care. I actually have not looked strongly into Bitpontent. The idea that we need to control the blockchain i've always thought was not not control the blockchain but control like what is put in it i think that like the blockchain has a very limited amount of space that space has a price maybe we've made a mistake with like the segwit discount and stuff like that i don't know i think that'll let people debate that and figure that out but like as to whether uh as to whether

we right now need to regulate it like i don't know because i think i think that like what needs to happen is like this is the whole bitcoin that has not done anything yet bitcoin needs to be used primarily for its function of transferring value from place to place right now such that that is the number one reason that someone wants to use the blockchain and until then every we will have a million attack vectors things people want to put in there whether it's words or not and so i'm not

like i'm not that concerned about it i never have been i think that there's a lot of people that are concerned about it um there has definitely been some like bloat in the blockchain which i don't you know it's it's bigger right now than maybe it would otherwise have been but i'm not i'm just not that worried about it yet it's it's we're still early in bitcoin's history i'll let them debate it and then if Implement it, they implement it. And if they don't, they don't.

Like, it's not, to me, this is never, this is more about, like, the sort of emergence of, like, factions than it is about whether a BIP is going to end up getting, like, you know, operationalized or not. Very fenced city. It's not fenced city. It's, like, do you care about every BIP? No. Me neither. There's someone that cares about every BIP, you know? And there's some people that, like, just don't know what's going on. I tend to know what the BIPs are.

And then some of them, I'm like, OK, that would be good. That would be bad. There's some ideas that I think are good and some ideas that I think are bad. And they get hammered out and debate. And then I have, to be honest, no, apart from maybe starting a movement in Bitcoin, I'm not going to affect whether that BIP gets implemented or not unless I have a really strong opinion and start, I don't know, lobbying the developers. I'll call Adam back and let him know.

But most of us don't really know day to day what the BIPs are. You're just in your Bitcoin Zen watching. That's always been the case with me. I'm always watching. Fence sitting, I've never taken strong stances on what Bitcoin should do other than that it did and probably needs to remain serving the underserved, which is exactly your statement. It needs to remain free and open, right? Freedom money.

so that's exactly what I think as long as it remains freedom money like you do whatever you want the rest is just noise yeah like it's you know it's an asset in your computer and then they're trying to put controls on it whatever those controls are some are going to be regulated you know with uh code some with laws yeah I mean as much as I called you a fence sitter but I think more people probably need to have that opinion I I can't imagine caring so much about everything

like just people spend so much time carrying whatever like i i i make jokes bitcoin uncensored back in the day it was all fart jokes like the whole thing fart jokes and then technical discussion fart jokes and technical discussion fart jokes and that was the show like if you asked me to summarize it that would be it was like i was mostly a podcast about fart jokes and like bitcoin technical discussions and i don't think you can have the perspective that like everything

everything is important and i must care about it if you're going to tell a lot of fart jokes and like that was the thing is like with bu we just we just kind of watched we just let it happen we thought things were hilarious we thought most of what we thought was funny was how seriously people took themselves like we and now everyone does everyone takes themselves so seriously in this space like do you guys do you guys realize where we came from like this is like bitcoin

magazine was run by a guy who like put on like those fake horse contests of faith you know horse masks and like all over himself and put posted these things online all the time embarrassingly like ethereum bitcoin's competitor is run by a a weird emaciated ethiopian child who like needs to eat a burger and like i don't know like none of this it's all funny nothing here is serious and yet like there's an ef or etf about it hilarious i don't know that surprises me

it's it's as surprising as an etf about pokemon cards or beanie babies or beanie babies it's hilarious and like people take themselves so seriously about it and it is important i really do think it is important but i think that it is like it is contingent on everyone to remember where we were like when the suits got here that's when things got retarded like we had suits come in for a while and then try to sell blockchain to everybody every time the suits come in it gets

dumb because they don't know what they're looking at so i don't know like everyone's taking themselves so seriously it gets real bad when you get serious folk in here i mean i kind of love that that's That's a, that makes me bullish. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is a toy and we're playing in a sandbox. And then like, maybe at some point someone goes like, oh, that toy looks really amazing. I'm going to turn that into a big toy for adults. I don't know. I think that's what the ETF is in some ways.

Like they're like, it's a big toy for adults. Like, well, that's cool. I'm going to turn that into a big toy for adults. So they put it, they wrapped it in an ETF and they're like, now it's a big toy for adults.

And like the adults are like oh wow look at this thing It kind of cool And so like you know I think that kind of what going on here is like we been playing in a sandbox and then the suits showed up multiple times in Bitcoin history and they did just the dumbest things and they were always funny And then we watch suits fall for scams from other suits. And then we'd watch the suits that just got here, go on CNBC and go like, I've been here for a very long time since May. And you're like, whoa,

they are. I remember I've told the story before, but like, I remember the first Bitcoin conference, there was a VC who got up on stage. And he was on with a panel of four people. It was like Mo Levin's first conference. And this guy, this VC, is talking. And he's like, I've been in Bitcoin quite a while. Been in since, I think he said, like $200 or something like that. And this is like January, I think. I remember turning to Chris and going, that was May. He's been in a while.

He's been in since May. What is he talking about? The suits have no idea what they're doing. And I love it. I think that that's great. I think it's really difficult for me to take anything we do here seriously. Because it's so, the people that got the richest are the funniest, most unlikely people to have gotten there. Have you been watching Bruce Fenton? I really like Bruce. Bruce Fenton took himself so seriously for years.

he was you know mr bruce i'm so serious i'm big money guy he would make fun of me like you're just an alarm salesman or you know whatever now people like you're just a trash guy you know like like oh yeah bruce okay bruce goes now and like does bitcoin uncensored like bits in front of his like city council ship because he's bored and so he puts on like a wig and not and talks like a tory and like it does these things and i'm just like okay there we go like don't take yourself

so seriously because on the other side of this as you're trying to build your wealth as you're trying to build the world you want to live in on the other side of this when you retire you'll realize that you you took yourself serious taking yourself seriously was nothing but larping and then on the other side of this all you want to do is go and like talk to your city council like an englishman put on a ridiculous like tory uh fucking uh wig you know he's doing that like uh

what's it called is it gumbo style what's the word i'm like gonzo style journalism yeah you know that's gumbo gonzo gumbo gumby style journalism uh that was what we like again be we always thought of ourselves as like gonzo journalists in a sense like where you become the story as well and that that is you know what be you was it was gonzo journalism but i just i just think it's funny that like i see people who spent years trying to like take themselves very seriously getting off

the serious train and like being i'm rich i arrived right i can stop being serious and then And they're like, oh, I guess here at this station, I don't have to be serious anymore. And they put down the pretense and they suddenly become like hilarious, funny people that are no longer the professional that they like pretended to be for 10 years. Yeah. So I don't know. Like, I just, I think it's funny in Bitcoin how seriously people take it.

And I just think that everyone's got to remember that, like, at the end of this, we're all going to take our pants off and probably find ourselves in some kind of orgy. What else is there, man? We've talked about a lot there. I don't know. Do you have a really unpopular Bitcoin opinion? These days? I feel like my AI opinions are the unpopular ones these days. I like that opinion. I don't know if it's true. No, it's like the only really positive outcome from AI that I've heard.

I mean, the Bitcoin opinions are, I feel like they're all said and done.

like any like specific things about bitcoin like bitcoin's kind of doing its thing right now it's kind of like we're in a bear market uh this is a good like being at 70k in a bear market feels pretty good that feels it's weird isn't it it's like oh bummer it's it's real weird like i don't know like bitcoin is bitcoin it always has been like my my whole thesis about bitcoin like i feel like much of it is one and i just kind of like sit back and let bitcoin do its thing it's not

there's i i don't the metaverse is dead it never was uh all of these shit coins like i said they still exist but like i don't think they will forever real world assets is the new metaverse real world assets is the new metaverse which is was obvious because you know it doesn make any set on real world assets like i i think i don like the touch grass meme but i think that like i find that having a sense of the world you in is the only way that

you can kind of understand what's coming particularly when things look difficult like everyone thinks they're going to lose their jobs and i i kind of like work it out in my head i'm like okay so like someone in the company is going to have to go in and really learn ai and that's someone like in an entrepreneurial sense is going to have to be the person with the incentive to get rid of the workers like you're not going to get the workers themselves to work themselves out of

a job so like the entrepreneurs themselves are going to have to do it so maybe there will be businesses that go like come in and do it and they're gonna they're gonna charge you fifty thousand dollars to teach you the ai that will help you get rid of workers and then you as the entrepreneur are gonna have to like actually hold become a manager of the ais and if you suck at managing people you're gonna suck at managing ais and so your whole company like now is like on your

back whereas before you had like an operations manager and like three or four levels of people that actually knew what was going on. And like just the world, that's just not how it's going to go. It just like, it's not going to be that fast. The only people that are going to be able to do this are the people that are like the ones with the incentives to get rid of the jobs. And there aren't that many people like that. I love it, man. I really hope it takes longer than we think. It will.

Don't worry. This time next time. clothes will be shredded i have no pants what we're doing in the metaverse couldn't afford to drive down the gases two dollars a gallon i just can't afford that anymore my ubi check didn't cover it really like i don't i don't know like it just seems it just seems to me to be implausible that that all of a sudden we're going to have a whole bunch of competent people show up and like all of these companies like from the other side that the you

know the gelman amnesia effect you know what this is no it's the idea that you you know in a in an industry you're competent in if you look at a newspaper and you read about it so like you go you read the reporting on bitcoin on the new york times and you're like you're reading it you're like that's not how bitcoin works oh yeah what the hell that's not true that's not what the debate what are they oh my god this whole article like 93 percent of this article is wrong that's weird

then the next page AI gonna take all the jobs whoa no right yeah like they just you just read what someone in your industry is going is is thinking like and it was 90 wrong you flip the page and you forget that like that just happened and that's that's kind of how I feel like with with AI like you get a couple of people like I worked in the AI industry and everything is going to change and no one's going to have it. These people aren't not making companies.

They're still making companies. Explain that one to me. They're still hiring programmers to do the jobs that programmers need to do. They're still hiring janitors. They're still hiring operations managers. They're still hiring drivers and still sending their kids to school. The janitors and the bin cleaners will be the last ones to go.

you've diversified well that's my goal but like you know what i mean like these these silicon valley guys who are telling you that the world's about to come to an end like why is why is there uh the rate of starting companies not slowing down don't believe the hype it's not that it's it's not that it's not like you know when like if barack obama tells you the world's going to be underwater in three years and then buys a home on martha's vineyard or whatever like right next

of the ocean, maybe there's something he's saying that he doesn't actually truly believe in his heart of hearts. Yeah. It wasn't Miami meant to be gone by now. Miami's been gone for the last 15 years. It's been underwater. Like, this is the thing. That's why I picked the highest department I could. Oh, good. It is beautiful. Just in case it's this time.

It is incredible the amount of times the experts are wrong, particularly in their timelines, and the amount of credibility we give them every single time they propose a new timeline. Yep. Like Elon Musk has never been right about a timeline.

And then like he comes and he's like, oh well you know the jobs will be done in like a year and a half and blah blah blah And like no one going to be in work and we going to be at Mars in two years And like you like okay can I get that full self on my car that was promised me eight years ago or whatever? Yeah, it wasn't the roadster meant to be out like six years ago. The roadster, that's right. He's like, next month it will do. Yeah. For like six, seven, eight years.

So, you know, that's true of Elon Musk, but like you have scientists who for the last 30, 40 years have been predicting the demise of every major city along the coast. We're still here. Yeah. We have experts in programming that have been telling us the future of the world looks like this with this new technology, IoT. Maybe it's not true. Everyone's annoyed that their fridge connects to the internet now. Yeah. And nobody wants- I've never understood why you'd want your fridge to get into that.

10 years ago, everyone wanted their fridge to connect to the internet because. Yeah. And I think in 10 years, AI, many of the promises of AI will look similar. I do love the idea, though, that this could be your interface to the internet and you don't actually have to be terminally online. That sounds amazing to me. Wouldn't it be great? Yep. Yeah, I just, I don't know exactly how that looks. But to me, that like, if you're going to set up things like agents, And this is the thing.

AI has gone from absolutely horrendously bad to like, wow, that's pretty good. But you got a preview of what it was doing a year ago. It's like, oh, it writes things. Cool. Oh, it makes images. Cool. But now it's like you can literally take two photographs and be like, take this image and take the thing from here, transform it, combine it into this image, and put them here. And then voila, you have like a near perfect facsimile of that. So that's cool.

and I think it'll probably get a little better. On the agent side, it's brand new. Like people have just started running like CloudBots and stuff like that. So that absolute, absolutely terrible experience. I've got one. It worked amazing for a while. Now it just keeps breaking. Just absolutely terrible experience. But in a year, maybe two years, it might be that these agents are incredible. I think that's the likely outcome. So that's the likely outcome.

What that means is that your agent is going to do things for you that you don't want to do. They're going to grocery shop for you with your help.

right they might message you and say hey are you out of bananas you can say actually yes i am like that's what i thought because it's about that time and it'll say hey are you out of uh you know dishwashing detergent you know yeah actually i am or no and so it'll buy these things for you and it'll like make your general life pretty easy and then you can focus if you want to buy things that like make your life fun now you're going to shop for things that make your life fun but you

might even ask you ask your a i to do that but for the most part like if you can allow the ai to do all that stuff you just get a bunch of time back you just unlock productivity it doesn't have to be productive like it depends on what you mean by productivity like time potential for it but yeah time a lot you're allowed to not do anything with your time doesn't always feel like it especially with a kid but yeah but like that's the thing is like more you have a kid so more time

with your kid is wonderful, right? It's amazing. You'd hope that you could have more of that. Absolutely. And I wouldn't call that productive time, like not in any way, shape, or form. It's absolutely like useless, like relationship building. I don't think that's useless. Totally useless. No, it's just relationship building. It's not like you're not making money, right? Like you're earning dollars for that. But you're probably building a better future.

yeah yeah yeah well you're making the world you're electing to live in the world that you want to live in yeah i love it jen seth i genuinely love talking to you you're one of my favorite people to have on the show oh um thank you sorry yeah everyone else that's that's how bad very very like low standards no it's been awesome um i normally say where do you want people to go but you don't want people to go anywhere unless you've got unless you've got a dirty trash

can around if you're in south florida you want your dirty trash can clean go to wash a can.com thank you man i will see you soon all right