Hello, and welcome to Western Sieve. In today's Bonus Author Interview, I sit down with Martin Rady and we talk about his most recent book, The Middle Kingdoms, a New History of Central Europe. This is an ambitious book, to say the least. It covers, Oh, I don't know, almost two thousand years of history for an area that is one of the largest in Europe. So it's Central Europe has always forgotten, but it's really important to keep it in mind, especially sort of the crossroads of Europe. And
it's of course in the news even still today. So I'm gonna sit down with Mark Rady today and talk about the book. Not gonna get all the way through it. It is over five hundred pages in length, as it sits here next to me right now, covers a lot of different topics. I had hoped to get to Napoleon. We didn't get to Napoleon. We got to the Thirty Years War instead. But we're starting with Rome and the influences of the Huns, so I guess that's still kind of an accomplishment.
Before we get started here, just a quick reminder all the links in the show notes that there always will be anna link to purchase the book there is present as well, So without further ado, then on to the interview. All right, as I mentioned, I'm sitting down with historian Martin Brady. Rady did it that wrong the first time, got it. So we're here. We're talking about his book The Middle Kingdoms, which is about Central Europe, which is the part of Europe that was never discussed when I was a
history major in college. It was just sort of there's France and England and German at some point, and then I think there's some countries in the middle there, but we're never going to talk about those. So a good breath of fresh air with this topic today. But I was hoping by joining us, you could start out by at least defining what we mean when we say central Europe, because I'm not sure everybody's on the same page on that one.
What central Europe does tend to differ a little depending upon who you're talking
to. The earliest reference to Central Europe who was called in German Middle Europe, and the earliest reference to Middle Europe that I found is from eighteen oh five, and it really is the area between France and Russia, and that is what the author a man called George Hastle described it as that area, that part of Europe that isn't in Turkish occupation, as the Balkans, most of the Balkans, was that area between, if you like, the Rhine
and the Russian frontier. Now, of course these are this is a political description that he gives. He references states, he goes beyond that and says Central Europe is the free bit of Europe which isn't under French absolutism and isn't under Russian autocracy. It's a nice part of Europe, if you like. And that was more or less the definition of Central Europe that prevailed right through to the Second World War. It always had Germany in it. Poland was
there or it wasn't there, depending upon whether Poland actually existed. Hungary was there, Bohemia, the Czech Republic that they were there, Austria was always there. People weren't sure what to do with Belgium and the Netherlands. I have in my book left out Belgium and the Netherlands, but I have included Frezier, and I've made largely the Rhine Frontier and Poland the limits of the book, and not going very much into the Balkans, although I do discuss
Slovenia and Croatia well. And it's worth pointing out immediately that the book covers about two thousand years ish of history, and so I think you're well within your rights not to include the Balkans, or you know, it would have been eight hundred pages and nine five hundred, six hundred pages. But you know, this is Western CIV Podcast, So it's time for the obligatory Rome
questions. You know, let's go back to the Roman Empire, because that is kind of to an extent where the book sort of begins to get into the history of Central Europe. And I don't think most people think of Central Europe when they think of Rome. I think you probably think of Western Europe. You think of Italy, and you do you think of the Balkan states and so on and so forth. But Central Europe you probably most of my
listeners probably consider a little bit too far afield. But I think it's worth wondering for a moment, you know, what was there a Roman influence in this area of Central Europe as we have just defined it just now, And you know, to what extent was that prevalent during the Roman period they I mean, it is surprising how much actually of Central Europe is within the Roman
Empire. I mean, the boundaries of the Roman Empire are essentially the Rhine and the Danube, and that includes quite a large chunk of western Germany, it includes the large chunk of Austria. Switzerland was also included, and then of course as one goes down the Danube, one hits what is now Romania
Transylvania that was incorporated in the Roman Empire. And of course the other point about the Roman Empire is that we tend to think in terms of lines on maps, but influence is far more important, and there are two different types of influences, the versus military influence. The Roman Empire is operating way beyond its borders. There are forts Roman forts built in Czech Republic. Their massive fortifications on the Great Hungarian Plain between the province of Dasia and the Province of
Pannonia, the bit that lies outside the Roman Empire. According to all the maps, they're huge fortifications. There's a sort of Hadrian's wall earthwork wall that's built to keep back the tribe of the Psalmatians. So there's a lot of military influence as well, but the cultural influence is important. The barbarian tribes living beyond the border, they want access to Rome, they want access to the wealth of the Roman Empire, and having destroyed the Roman Empire, they
nevertheless are aware of the monumental legacy of it. And it's you know, one has to bear in mind that we talk about the Holy Roman Empire. Its official name was the Roman Empire, and it is as the Roman Empire that it existed right through to the beginning of the nineteenth century, and we call them Holy Roman empress. They thought of themselves as Roman emperors in direct line of, if you like, ideological descent from the old Roman emperors of
ancient Rome. So the influence military and cultural is quite significant. I think, yeah, sometimes I don't think we sometimes I do think. Rather, that's one of the most damaging things that we do for especially younger history students, has show them a map that's colored in with lines and say, okay, well, these people lived on this side of the line and these people lived on that side of the line, which, of course in pre modern
history is ludicrous at any time that you're trying to say it. But it also just sometimes we oversimplify things to such a strong extent that we end up actually not telling the truth anymore, when there was a lot of interaction between areas well beyond the Rhine, well beyond the Danube, even in the Roman imperial period, and just coloring this section of the map read and saying this is Roman, this isn't is against one of those oversimplifications that I don't think
does this any justice. But of course one of the one of the reasons for the ultimate collapse of the Roman Empire are those barbarian incursions and one of the impetus for the movement of people, you know, are some of those and we'll talk about a couple of these groups today, But these step riders who come in from the east, and you know, if I'm talking about the Romans, of course, I'm talking about the Huns, and so I
think it's worth talking about for a second. You know, how important were these incursions of horse archer step peoples who would you know, from time to
time sort of like a hurricane almost of blowing into Central Europe. I think they're absolutely critical really in determining the shape and the history of Central Europe, and it carries on all the way through really to the eighteenth century, in the form of the Tartars of the step who are a constant problem and dislocating force in large parts of Central Europe right through to the eighteenth century, particularly
in the slave trade that emerges in that part of the world. They go in, the Tartars go in and force or militarization of the society in order to defend them, defendigates these people. But going back to the Huns, I mean Huns bring down the Roman Empire. That's a big statement. There are one hundred and forty reasons given by historians for the collapse of the Roman Empire, and any of your listeners who are interested can go into Wikipedia and
every one of them is listed with due reference points. But I think one could say that, yes, there are all sorts of reasons why the Roman Empire fail. It's dependence upon slavery. Maybe Christianity made people soft and remove the martial edge of the Roman Empire. But I think if one looks at it in terms of sort of short term causes, the short term cause is the eruption of the Huns. The Huns are a completely new force. Nobody
really knows much about them. They're related to what appears to be a group called the seal New who are active a couple of centuries before on the Chinese border. Then they go quiet. Nobody knows what happens in the intervening period, and suddenly in the fourth century they're on the Western stepe land and on the western step they start pushing the two groups that are both called Goths.
They're the Turving and the Groytun Goths, and the Huns pushed them into the Roman Empire, and that starting in three seven eight a d. When a Roman army is defeated by in a sense, these refugees from the Huns. From that point on, the Roman Empire is in decline, and the Roman Empire will be brought down effectively by the eruption of Barbarian tribes who, like some sort of domino effect, are pushed by the Goths and taken and take
occupation of Italy. And it is a very sad event. There's some historians who play down the impact of the Barbarian invasions on Rome and talk about the strong continuities. Well, if you look cards enough, I'm sure you can find the continuities. People weren't so sure that there were continuities around in the fourth and fifth centuries, but the most signal thing is there is hot running
water stops in four fifty eight. It stops in Central Europe and stops in the fifth century, and it will not be until about fourteen sixty that it recommences. So you can't get a hot bath in Central Europe for a thousand years. And that is the effect of the barbarian invasions, and an important effect, let's say that for sure. But you make a good point there
that I just want to make sure that the listeners pick up. I'm because one of the things that's so critical about Central Europe, and it's it's evident in the book very much a sort of a thread that runs throughout is that Central Europe is very much the sort of crossroads area where different cultures are meeting. And you talk about the Huns coming through and other step peoples and how that forces the militarization of those people who are there to try to defend themselves
against them. And I think that that's an important theme throughout the book and throughout history of civilizations being impacted by each other, almost like pieces of hot metal that are pounded together it changes both of them every time that they're struck in some sort of a way. And in this case, it's very true to sort of talk about, yes, we have this domino effect that's going on, but as the Huns come in, there's no Hun empire that develops
after the Roman Empire, it doesn't matter. It's already transforming the civilizations that it is having these sort of interactions with in an on both a short term and a long term basis. So, well, let's jump forward, because we can't talk about Rome the whole time, but the um, well I could, but let's not. So I'm always sort of struck by this moment in history, and I was taught this years and years ago, that you know, the the disillusion and the breaking a part of Charlemagne's empire after his
death. Is a lot of times you'll still go to a history book and it'll say the birth of modern Europe in this chapter, and then they'll show you the map. You know, this is how the empire was divided, and you can look at it and say, like, okay, I guess that kind of kind of starts to look like modern Europe a little bit based off of these again lines that we've drawn. But is this are we seeing
the birth of modern central Europe in the tenth century, I don't. I don't know, like is this is it fair in any way shape or for to sort of make this blanket statement just to go back a bit. I mean, you're quite right about the Huns. They don't leave an empire, but some of the people they throw up, some of the other nomads are there, and you've got one nomadic tribe will establish itself in Bulgaria. They are called the Bulgars, and they will merge with the Slavs and become the
Bulgarians. In central Europe in the area of modern day Hungary, and go over into eastern Austria. You have the Avar Empire, which is the Great Unknown Empire, and that exists from the sixth century right through to the beginning of the ninth century. That is a long period of time for an empire to exist. And farther to the east, including Crimea, you have the
Khazar Empire, which is remarkably an empire run by a Jewish elite. So you're dealing with a shape of Europe that really is very unfamiliar, and I think it's quite misleading to look at the breakup of the Charlemagne's Empire and say, ah, we can you know, we can begin to see something more like modern Europe beginning, because farther over in the East you've got some very odd creations indeed that are existing there and ideal in the book with certainly the
Avars, and say they are a group that needs to be better known. I mean they have some quite remarkable artifacts and gold, wonderful gold and enamel, jewelry and dinner services effectively, and to reads you as there's a tremendous culture there. The really I think crucial development is not so much the breakup of Charlemagne's empire, but the way it's reconstituted in the tenth century, and
Charlemagne's empire disappears, the title of emperor goes the descendants of Charlemagne. They will they will die out, and it is left to the so called Saxon rulers of what is now looking like much more like Germany East Frankia. It is left to them to reconstitute the empire, and they become the new emperors. They take over the title of Roman Emperor, and they create a new polity that will endure and that is much more recognizably something German and starts using
the German language. Yeah, and let's talk about Let's talk about that then, because I think that and you know, listeners will probably know it from the book as the Holy Roman Emperor Empire. You know, that's sort of the the big title that gets hoisted upon it. As you mentioned, they would have thought of themselves as Roman emperors, but that does start to look
like Germany. And the more I've read about again, I'll say Holy Roman Empire, just so that it's clear what I'm talking about for someone who's just started listening. But it seems to me that that polity, that kingdom has had more of a profound impact on Europe than oftentimes it's given credit for. And so I was wondering if you could talk about the empire for a moment and just how did it, how did it come to be, and why is it important for us to remember? I don't know in terms of,
you know, what should we think about it? I think the important thing is that it provides, shall we say, a space for sub states to develop. What really happens with the Holy Roman Empire is that it is based upon dynasties, and those dynasties have got land bases, and those land bases gradually get eroded, and in order to maintain their power, the successive kings of Germany who become Emperors of Germany. These successive rulers grant more and more
rights to their vassals, and ultimately they give them effectively political independence. So as a consequence, we get emerging within the space of the Holy Roman Empire a mass of new states. Some of them are actually Slavonic states in origin, like Mecklenburg and Brandenburg, and they will become premier German states. Others like Saxony and Bavaria, and ultimately Austria, will likewise maintain their own separate existence. In the case of Austria, it will take over the government of
the Holy Roman Empire in the fifteenth century. And this means that each of these separate polities is involved partly in a competitive struggle, partly in a cooperative struggle in order to establish their power. And one of the ways they will do that is by moving eastwards to the Virgin Lands. If you like, a Slavonic settlement lying to the east, and they will gradually take over that area I mean, we have to remember that at one point Slavonic settlement reached
to what is now whole Study just next to Denmark. All of that was Snamonic territory and is gradually rolled back and new German states are founded or old German states extend into these territories and build them up in a vast colonial enterprise. And this is, I think, is the achievement of the Holy Roman Empire to actually provide a space whereby these states can advance and move forward.
But there's more to it than that. At times when when there is a common danger, the Holy Roman Empire and the Holy Roman emperors are able to use the weight of their office in order to coordinate the defense of the region and push against Turks, against Louis the fourteenth. So in a sense, the Holy Roman Empire does still have some sort of meaning even at the time, right into the early modern period when he has thought about thought of invariably
is in total disarray and decay. Yeah, it's I think that that those are really valid points. You know, I read once years ago, and I can't remember the name of the author, talking about the importance of you know, the Holy Roman Empire as opposed to like say maybe the Kingdom of France or England, you have, you know, an itinerant court with more
of an itinerant capital system. So the emperor is going to different diets in different locations, and so you know, different cities remain almost of equal importance in the empire, whereas in France, you know, Paris develops as the main central capital later on as we're going, and that that independence. And I'll come back to that later when we talk about the Reformation, because I
think that that really matters when we get to a topic like that. But thinking first about another one of those moments when maybe the Holy Roman Empire has to provide large scale stability, you'd have to think about a very surprising moment for Europeans, certainly, which would be the arrival of the Mongols from the East. And you know, I think that those of us who look more at Western European history, we don't think about them as much as maybe we
should. But certainly the Mongols, I'm guessing had a profound impact on Central Europe. Correct. I think it has a profound effect to one parts of Central Europe. I mean, the Mongols are not particularly interested in going into Central Europe. They've go enough on their plate as it were, dealing with the Western step, and their main interest is to reduce the Russian principalities to as subservient status as providers of tribute and of conscripts. So that's that their
main target. What happens is that they send envoys to throughout Western Europe because they believe that the Khans are the world leaders, and they demand that everybody bows down to them, and many rulers just rite pleasant pleasant things back and leave it at that. But unfortunately Baylor the fourth, the king of Hungary, slays the Mongol envoys. Now this is a very very unwise move because the murder of envoys is never a good idea at any point. There's always
been some notion of diplomatic status that has attached to envoys. And Batu Khan, who is the grandson of Jengis Car, if I remember correctly, Bartu Khan, who sent the Endvoice, just goes and launches a full scale attack on Hungary. His geography is not very good. He doesn't quite understand who's
allied to whom, so he also ravages southern Poland. But he ravages southern Poland because he's involved in a pincer movement on Hungary with different armies crossing the Carpathians in order to capture King Baylor the fourth, and Baylor the fourth knows thereafter him and ends up hiding on a Dalmatian island, and the Mongols occupy
Hungary for a year. Unfortunately, in this case, the Holy Roman Empire is not involved in much coordination because Hungary is outside the Holy Roman Empire, and in fact, it does nothing when the ruler of Austria helps himself to a bit of Hungarian territory in the disarray. But following the Mongol invasion owned the retreat of the Mongols, they've run out of food because the Hungarian plane is not a very good supplier of grass. It doesn't have as much fodder
as people imagine. They have to retreat after about a year, and it's left to Baylor the fourth to rebuild his kingdom. And what he does is he engages, in a process of about twenty years, what states and countries and regions and lands across Europe have been doing over a period of several centuries. He actually, for what a better word, modernizes or feudalizes the kingdom.
He builds cities calls in Germans with big tax concessions to foul cities and gets them to build city walls, and the city walls around dumb Buda bauda pest. The city walls are something like five kilometers longer, and they're put up in about twenty to thirty years. This is extraordinary effort by Baylor the fourth and by the citizens he's called in to help him. More particularly as well he establishes he gets rid of the existing system of military recruitment and awards
land to servicemen to essentially nights. He builds up a class of knights, giving them land with the idea that they can buy heavy armor, and so Hungry gets knighthood and chivalry and all of the things that go with our understanding of the Middle Ages. Before that time, Hungary was a pretty primitive place with a fairly base si system of administration. Baylor the fourth, as a consequence of the Mongol invasion, transforms Hungry and makes it into a state comparable
to any of its neighbors and western counterparts. It becomes a recognizably Christian and Western looking state. The same as Procosis is going on in parts of Poland, in particular, where you've got tremendous competition amongst various claimants to the throne, and you get the same type of stress on knighthood, building up, feudal retinues, allocating resources to a new class of warrior, building cities. All of this process, which is in Hungary, is complete within twenty years.
It takes longer in places like Poland and Bohemia, but it's underway there as well. So the Mongols, I think, kind of a tremendous effect or hungry, but they show as a consequence of the way they act, just what type of transformation is happening in Central Europe round about the eleventh twelve thirteenth centuries. That's and again another great example of a civilization being impacted by an invasion and being forced to, as you say, modernize and develop the
nation state even more. I want to talk about one group here, and
that's that's the Teutonic Knights. The Teutonic Knights are probably one of those groups that when I talk about them, I find that people sort of colloquially have heard of them, they have some sense that they're some way tangentially related to the Crusades, and that they're German, and then sort of beyond that, they don't really know what they were, but they're really interesting and the fact that they come relatively close compared to other the other military orders to creating the
sort of permanent state is interesting to me. So I was a big You could talk about them and the role that the Teutonic Knights play in the development of Central Europe for a little while because I find them interesting. I think that people would too. Yeah, I mean, the one has these crusader orders that exist in the eastern Mediterranean. Some like the Hospitalers, managed to
create their own states at roads and it lasts until the sixteenth century. And of course then there's the Hospitalist state of Malta, which survives until Napoleon comes on the scene. The Teutonic Knights are the most successful in the sense that they've got the largest state complex built by crusading knights. The Tutonic Knights are monks. They don't have tonsias, they have helmets instead. They're a militarized
monk force. They do all the prayers. They may have to do them on horseback as they ride into battle, but they do their divine offices they live in dormitories. They are celibate, and they are dedicated to the Virgin Mary, so they are very holy people. But they carry swords as well,
and their aim is to fight the infidel. Originally it was to provide hospitals, and they provide hospitals right through until what The order still exists, and they still are providers of succer and aid, but their primary function becomes the war aids the unbeliever and the unbeliever. In the thirteenth century, the unbeliever is in Prussia, and the Prussians are not the last group to become converted to Christianity in Central Europe. The second or third group, we've got
the Lithuanians that I'll come onto. The Prussians are attacking Poland, and the Polish Duke Conrad of Masovia calls in the Teutonic Knights for assistance. Now that Teutomic Knights have previously been looking for a role, and they had accepted an invitation to fight the Kuban nomads in Transylvania. And they build various fortresses, they move people, pull in and then the King of Hungary decides he doesn't want them in after all. He's going to use the Franciscans to convert the
Cumans peacefully. And so they find themselves kicked out, and they're very aggrieved about this because they've they've spent a lot of money. So I went Conrad of Masovia appeals to them. They lay down conditions, and they laid down conditions that they will have the territories that they're given, and the territories of the conquer will be theirs, and they will be allowed to do what they
like with them. And so they established themselves in I suppose one should call it the northeast corner of Europe, just south of the Baltic where they eliminate first of all, the Prussians. They have a hard job doing so. The Prussians are fairly primitive fighters, but they pick up techniques of warfare very rapidly, capture large numbers of knights, and engage in the very pleasant pastime of roasting Teutonic knights alive in their armor. So the Teutonic Knights established themselves
in Prussia. They then move on to fight the next group, which are the last surviving pagan group in Europe, and that is the Lithuanians, who occupy a vast space reaching from the Baltic all the way down to the Black Sea. Lithuania is today very small. Indeed, its territory in the fourteenth century was extraordinary extensive, was the largest state in Europe. And the Teutonic Knights are involved with fighting the Prussians and then fighting the Lithuanians. There are
about a thousand nights in all operating on the if you like. In the Baltic areas, there's not very many. And what they have to do is they feudalize their territories in much the same way as happened in Hungary and in
Poland. They grant land to nights to come over and to assist in the in the in their wars, and they author essentially action packed tourist holidays where warriors from the West come over and spend a season or two campaigning alongside them, fighting Prussians and more particularly Lithuanians. And in the book I actually go into future Henry the fourth of England who goes over and fights on the side
of the Teutonic Knights against the Lithuanians. He spends a vast amount of money because the Prussians, the Teutonic Knights are not just interested in the military muscle of the people coming in from the west. They're interested in how they can get them to to spend money. And they have lavish feasts, great entertainments with minstrels, no girls, because the Knights are celibate. They're not no
girls. But there's plenty of drinking and boozing and exchanging gifts. And the Teutolic Knights continue in that manner until they are eventually defeated by the Poles. The Poles have had enough of them. The Teutonic Knights continue warring against the Lithuanians even after the Lithuanians have converted to Christiana, and they actually joined together with Poland in thirteen eighty five to found a joint joint state under a common
ruler. And the polls turn on the Teutonic Knights and defeat them and force them into a making some type of peaceable settlement with them. But the real turning point, which leads on i think probably to your next question. The real turning point comes in fifteen twenty five when the Teutonic Knight, grand Master
Albrecht of hohen Solomn, decides to become a Protestant, a Lutheran. And what he does is he gives up all of the monkish aspects of the Teutonic Knights activity he establishes himself as the ruler of Prussia, and he makes all the Knights into his landowners and landholding class. And this is the great secularization, as it's called, of the Teutonic order, where it loses its religious aspect and becomes if you like a feudal state. It's a good point because
there's actually a couple of things there. I mean, first of all, I hope if you're listening to this, you know, if you didn't know how large Lithuania was in the fourteenth century, go look at a map, because it's it is an enormous state at this point in Europe. And the thing about the Teutonic Knights that, as I was researching them, struck me is that, yes, it's it's one of these groups that rulers were very
happy to be accommodating to them while they needed them. But as we would see in Transylvania with the King of Hungary, and then later on they run a foul of the polls and so on and so forth. It's this group that they decide. Well, I don't know that this is as useful for us anymore in the sort of the shifting alliances that are taking place. But
they don't as you say, they don't disappear. They more of a transition, and the transition than does have a lot to do with the next topic, which is the Reformation, because I don't think you can talk about Central
Europe without talking about the bombshell that was the Reformation. And I just don't personally, I just don't know if the Reformation plays out the way that it does, if Martin Luther has to live in say, France as opposed to one of the German states as again, and that goes back to that freedom that was granted to the different participating dukes, kings and princess so on and
so forth of the Holy Roman Empire. So how important is Central Europe to the story of the Reformation And is there any I don't know, is there any credence to my hypothesis that we owe Central Europe to a large extent to what happens for what happens. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a
very valuable point. What would have happened if Luther had been in England or France or Italy, he would have been burnt and that would have been the end of it, because that's what happens to people like John Tindo, William Tindall, Tindo, the Savona Rola, all these various heretics, as they were called, captured and and both. In the case of Luther, he
is protected. He is protected. He is a university professor, and Frederick the Wise of Saxon, he doesn't like people having a go at his professors, and he protects them. I don't think universities would do the same now. So he protects Luther, and Luther is able to produce vast amounts of writing eighty volumes I think in the present edition eighty volumes of writing, and he is assisted by the artist Kranach who makes him into a brand and produces
these scurrilous woodcuts that do so much to spread Luther's message. So that is important that the role of the Holy Roman Empire in nurturing if you like the Reformation, the Reformation is Central Europe, and it depends upon the shape of Central Europe for its success. But I think the critical point is that the final peace treaty that's made in the fifteen fifties between the Protestant princes and the
Holy Roman Emperor Charles the fifth and his brother and success of Fertiland. That presupposes that the princes can determine the religion of their subjects, and that is
a tremendous boost to princely power. In fact, what is even more the case is how the Protestant princes in particular are keen on religious discipline and on social discipline as an aspect of that, and so the religious power they get soon becomes a power to a few like metal and pride into people's lives, into their morality, into their marriages, into the way they bring up children. And so there's a tremendous social disciplining, I think is the worth that
historians use. There's a tremendous social disciplining that the prince's engineer on the back of the Reformation, which extends their political influence and their power all the more. It's giving Luther and then you know, I mean Switzerland, you know, which is you know where we get a couple of other key reformers, John Calvin and Arex Vingli as well, or sort of operating in this space,
and it gives him the opportunity. And just to go back to the writing for a second, the amount of writing that Luther was able to produce is tremendous. It's almost hard to even put it into quantities. For people like he was. If you look at the best sellers list of this period of European history, it would be like looking at a list in the top five or all things written by Martin Luther. I mean his ability to do
that is because you can't just go grab him and burn him. Okay, Janhos made the mistake of showing up at a court on one occasion, and that didn't end well for him, and Luther was very aware of what had happened to him. And what's another interesting thing that's happening at this exact same time is, of course, while the Reformation is going in parts of Germany and in Switzerland as well, you also have the burgeoning Ottoman state pushing in
to eastern and up to towards Vienna. And so how does Charles the fifth and how does central Europe try to balance this? How does he try to address this ardam and threat while simultaneously having to deal with this ongoing Reformation. Yeah, I mean it's very difficult. And in Charles the Fifth is very
negligent. In the fifteen twenties, he spends his time in Spain. He's just got married, his wife is dazzlingly beautiful, and he languishes there really and leaves it to his brother Fursdan to sort out the Holy Roman Empire. And Furson can't do it, And Charles the Fifth turns up at Augsburg in fifteen thirty and there's a meeting of the Diet, the parliament of the Holy Roman Empire, and he calls together the Catholic princes and says, right,
you know, there's been too much messing around. We're going to go for it. I'm going to make war on the Protestants. And they go and say to him, you can't do that. Firstly, you haven't got enough money for troops. Secondly, the troops that you recruit who Protestants anyway, they're not going to fight very hard for you. Thirdly, we've just had a peasants war in Germany. The peasants will rise up, and on top of that, the Ottomans will take advantage of any civil conflict and press further
into Central Europe and Charles has to back down. The Ottomans are there as a restraint on the imperial policy and they will always remain so, I mean the buy fifteen fifty roughly most of the parliaments across the Holy Roman Empire. Remember there's a there's a central parliament of the Holy Roman Empire, the Reichstag, and there are parliaments in all of these provinces as well, and they control the purse strings because they're the people who know who the taxpayers are,
and they're the people who've got the tax electors out. So if you're going to get any money, you have to go through the princes and the parliaments. And the parliaments will just say to any prince who says, you know, we're going to crack down on Probiesenism, they will simply say to him, in that case, we're not collecting any taxes. And normally they will in places like Austria's Steria, they will couple tax two concessions on the religious
front. And the main reason why princes need taxes is from military purposes in order to engage in defense, particularly against the Turks, also the French, but particularly against the Turks. So in other words, there's a direct linkage between the Ottoman Empire and its advanced into Central of Remember in fifteen twenty nine, they're at Vienna, and they will they will continue being a threat on the doorstep of Central Europe for an several centuries more, and they will they
force a new degree of militarization in Central Europe. But militarization has to be paid for, and the Protestants control the purse strings. Yeah, it's interesting. I think that there's there's to an extent of valid argument to be made that, you know, who do we have to thank for the for the Reformation being allowed to survive those early years. One could advance an argument that, well, you should thank the Ottoman Sultan for the Reformation existing, because
their very existence at that same time makes it very difficult. Sometimes, you know, you look at a map and this is again where maps are misleading, and you look at all the territories that are under technically two different extents Charles the fifths, you know, sovereignty, and you say, well, he controls all these vast areas, he's obviously so much more powerful than everybody else. But many of those areas come with problems, and those areas have
to be defended, and those areas are by no means unified. There's very little interest for people in Spain to pay for wars in Germany and vice versa, you know, And certainly he's got you know, Mexica and Inca later on gold pouring in from the New World. But it's it's spent almost before it comes in. I mean, in to some extent it is, I
suppose spent before it comes in, because he's borrowed it already. And I imagine him as this juggler who every time he wants to take on another ball, someone reminds him that, well, if you do that, it's actually two more, just so you know, because there's these other problems. And of course he eventually just retires and its way down by it so much so it's again and one of those ways where you look you would look at it and say, this man is so powerful, look at what he has,
But you know, it's it's not that simple. It's it's much more complicated than all of that. And so I think the Ottomans are an interesting question in there. Well, I don't want I don't want to run out of time. Here I want to talk about the Thirty Years War for a moment, because the Thirty Years War, at least I was taught, was one of those watershed history moments in Central Europe that sort of dominates how things go from then on. So I was I was hoping you could speak for at
least a few minutes about the Thirty Years War. You know, where, how does it happen in nature, and what are some of its sort of immediate consequences for the history of Central Europe. In particular, it starts because there is an even more determined emperors and chance of face, and that is Emperor further than the second and first of the second is I suppose we would
call him a fanatic. He has made a personal vow to the Virgin that he will rid his territories of protesting autism, and nothing is going to stop him. The one point, early on in the Thirty Years War, he really has only Vienna left, and he's got only a minor garrison, and he is reliant upon the students, under the officering of their professors, in order to defend him. And what he does is he prays in the chapel in what is now the Hoffberg, the Hofburg Palace, you can see it
there. And the Virgin tells him it's going to be all right, and it is because the army that's coming to Vienna diverts in another direction. So he's saved, and he's saved by the intercession of the Virgin, which only sort of encourages him to take more and more gambles, and he will spend the next the sixteen twenties making outrageous gambles with dispossessing rulers, demanding that Protestant princes return all the church land that they've seized, which is huge quantities of
territory, trying to rebuild the Catholic Church. But ultimately he's caught out because just as Charles the Fifth learnt at Halsburg, other people are waiting there to
take advantage of his difficulties. The Swedes intervene, and more particularly the French intervene on the Protestant side effectively, and so the Thirty Years War, which starts off very much as a religious war, becomes a dynastic war fought between the House of Habsburg and the House of Bourbo and France, and so it continues long after the main causes having a sense been resolved, and the deal that's put at the end is that the princes can continue to determine the religion,
except whereas originally the religions that they could choose were limited to Catholicism or Lutheranism, now Calvinism is allowed in that if the religious freedom is largely allowed to subjects within a number of constraints, and the courts will from this point onwards judge matters of religious dispute. They won't be left to the ruler and the courts they're batlogged. And but it's shoving the problem of religion into the
courts and taking it off the battlefield, that's the important thing. And there's an exemption for the hapsburg Ler, which means Austria, Bohemia and not Hungry. At this point, Austria and Bohemia are exempt from this. They have to stay Catholic. So what happens is that you get a build up of, if you like, a Catholic redoubt that begins to emerge in Austria and
Bohemia. With Bavaria, which has long been well since the fifty six fifteen seventies is pretty solidly Catholic, so you get a build up of Catholic bloc in the south and east of the Holy Roman Empire, and Catholicism is saved. And that's the important point, because by sixteen hundred, fifty years before the Peace of Westphalia, Catholicism looked as if it was being outmaneuvered, as
if it was going to be marginalized entirely. The Thirty Years War allows the Catholics to come back, as it were, and importantly too, it marks really the removal of the Hapsburgs from the Holy Roman Empire. The Peace of Westphalia is signed by the princes separately under their own names. It recognizes, if you like, that some sort of sovereignty attaches to them, and the
role of the Habsburgs is diminished. Hats most will continue to play a role in the Holy Roman Empire, but from now all it will be a diminished one, and they will increasingly look to building up their own power in their
own corner of Central Europe. Yeah. I mean, if there's a couple of important takeaways from the Thirty Years War, certainly one of them should be Ladies and gentlemen, if somebody tells you it's all going to be Okay, I just talked to the Virgin Mary and you said it was going to be fine. You should be a little suspicious because that hasn't always particularly worked out
in the long run for those who have attempted it. Well, we are running out of time, and we got to the mid seventeenth century, so listeners at home should know that this book is very detailed and excellent and so dense. I wrote through Napoleon and we didn't get to Napoleon, so it's
well worth picking up. And I couldn't recommend it enough. There's just aren't very many good complete histories of Central Europe out there, and this is coming from a guy who knows, because I have to read a lot of history. So if you're looking for a book that really does stitch together the major themes of Central European history and how it impacts everything else, this one is
excellent, and thank you for writing it. I very much enjoyed reading it, and I'm hopeful that you know, maybe there'll be some other works in the future that I can pick up. But thank you for coming on as well. It was really fantastic my pleasure. Thank you very much for listening to me.