Transcript
0:02 Intro: Hi there, welcome to Well Dukes, brought to you by The Well. Each week, you'll hear conversations from a variety of JMU staff and students that we hope challenge what you know, think, or do in regard to your own health, and helps you be Well Dukes.
0:22 Jordan: All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome to our last episode of the Well Dukes podcast for this year. I am your host, Jordan McCann. And with me today, I have a special co-host, AJ, who we have heard from before. AJ is behind the scenes making this podcast happen every week. So happy to have him here with me on this final one, ending the journey with me in this podcast, aren't you, AJ?
0:49 Aj: Yeah, it's definitely interesting ending this whole process on this side of the podcast, even though I will also be on the editing side for this episode as well.
1:00 Jordan: Yeah. And so this last podcast, kind of going by popular request, is talking about perfectionism and burnout and what that looks like with college students.
1:12 Aj: Yeah. So on this episode, we have Michael Rybak, who is a second year graduate student in the College Student Personnel and Administration program here at JMU. Michael's actually worked with us and the well last year as the graduate assistant with our SOGIE programming. And this year, he's working in the Career Center.
1:32 Jordan: Yeah. And then the other guest on this episode was Viriya Lim. And Viriya, she's a Senior Health scientist major, and I actually met Viriya when she was a student of mine last year in my class. And then she also joined the Well Peers. So we were happy to have her be able to end her senior year with being on this episode. And with Michael and Viriya, we talked about the sense of perfectionism and college students, and all of the ways that it can manifest like, what causes this sense of perfectionism. And then we also discussed how that leads to burnout. And it was just really nice to talk to two students and hear them reflect on their time in college and their experiences and share some relatable advice, you know, kind of what they would tell themselves looking back and to current JMU students.
2:16 Aj: All right, let’s get to it.
[Musical Interlude]
2:22 Jordan: Hi, there, Michael. Hi, Viriya, thank you so much for being on this final episode of the Well Dukes podcast with me. [Viriya: Whoo!]. Yeah, and as we are recording this, we are very near the end of the semester. So I imagine you are both super excited, because you were almost done. You are both graduating, correct?
2:45 Michael: Yee-yee.
2:45 Viriya: Woohoo!
2:49 Jordan: Yeah. And so I'm so happy to have both of you on here. And you both have so much experience in so many different ways. And to have you kind of sharing that with our listeners today. As people are about to graduate and people that have been in-- Viriya, you are, you are a senior in undergrad, Michael, you are about to finish up grad school. So you've done about six years of higher education. [Michael: Indeed. A long six years.] Yeah. So you both have that experience, you know, and to reflect on what it would have been like to get you to this, to this time in your life, you know, that it's… It's all kind of coming to an end, but it's also a lot of excitement. And you know, possibly like, What is next? Right? So for this episode that I want to talk about what gets students to this point, you know, to, like, towards the end of... Also all of the things that, you know, hopefully get students there, but both good and bad. And the one thing that I've been hearing a lot about, and I think what I've been hearing, even from students I interact with, and we know this year has seen it a lot we've heard we've been hearing these words, “burnout,” right, and like, “zoom fatigue,” and just overall stress and for JMU students not even having spring break, you know, yes, there were these kind of break days, but not even having that one week off in March... I think a lot of people you know, are seeing it and feeling it. So I want to talk about that today. So for both of you kind of reflecting back on your years in college, and even grad school. I imagine there were, you know, probably sometimes you both felt this pressure to do well in this sense of perfectionism; to get good grades or to get the grades you need and to, you know, be seizing opportunities and making sure you're making connections and networking and checking all these boxes of all trying to do all these things to get you set up for success. I'm wondering, what is perfection mean to you like what comes to mind when I say that word and also when we think about those pressures of doing well, how has that both been really helpful for you, but also potentially harmful to academics and well being.
5:11 Michael: So when I think about perfection, the phrase “unrealistic expectations” immediately comes to mind. And I'm definitely someone, both personally and professionally, who is always attempting to meet those unrealistic expectations that I either think people set for me, or I set for myself. I think a lot of time, it's a big internalization of “I have to be perfect.” And that I think, has come from many different parts of my life. And it has manifested in many different ways, like on my journey. But I think in this time in my life, the reason why I'm potentially so riddled with the notion of perfectionism is because I am moving on and Viriya could probably also agree, like, you know, we're moving on into a stage where we may not be like, potentially doing school, or like, you know, we may be moving on into a job opportunity. And being in the academic setting, you know, there's always this level, especially in undergrad, when I was an undergraduate student, like it was all about the grade, it was all about getting good grades for me. And I just remember, like, even in my last semester, I was an undergraduate student, I went to Florida Gulf Coast University, go Eagles love that always gotta plug. But I just remember, like, having this like intense desire to say, “Oh, well, I graduated with this GPA. And I graduated with, you know, summa cum laude,” and like, I'm really proud of that. But it took a lot to get there. And was it really worth it to go through all of the physical, mental, and emotional stress of assignments and like, self-reflection, and sleepless nights? So I think it has been very interesting, transitioning into a graduate atmosphere, because even from the beginning of my experience at JMU, as a graduate student, they told us, like, the grades don't matter. throw that out the window. And I think that's kind of interesting, because they don't really give you the tools of how to transition from those mindsets of undergrad to grad. So I think, you know, it's a really interesting compilation of feelings and thoughts that I have, and I still struggle. And I think it's really important to name that. And to be really upfront, I don't think we do a good job of naming and normalizing the fact that, to a certain degree, we're all trying to be perfect, but why, you know, why? Or why do we have to be perfect? Who do we have to be perfect for? And I think that's something I've really been thinking about, as it relates to my own experience at JMU. But also, how I want to move about my life in a way that's authentic, but also is good for my well-being.
8:20 Jordan: Yeah, and Michael, I'm curious, working since you work in the Career Center, is that something that you have seen show up a lot with students, you know, they're coming in and they're seeking you resume advice, or anything, or when I get this job. And do you see that in students where they are about, like, you know, I've gotta have this three page resume and have all these things on it. And, you know, making sure that I'm marketing myself for that, and you ever kind of give that advice to them?
8:47 Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I, so I see in the Career Center, I see students for a variety of reasons. I'm working with students kind of from a career lens, but also an academic advising lens. But, you know, for example, if I have a student come in, and you know, they're working on their resume, they and we meet with them, like we have first time resume reviews, we have like, follow ups and things of that nature. And when they come in for the first time resume review, they are just riddled with anxiety. And they are just terrified because one, it might be their first experience. So it might just, you know, be nerve wracking and I'm appreciative that they had the courage to come to the center and like meet with me. And I think I attempt to decrease that anxiety around like, this notion of perfectionism because I think that's what it really kind of all comes back to because you know, they come in and they want their resume to be absolutely perfect, because if it's not perfect, then they're not going to get the job and it always is like very black and white for some reason. Like even in a career setting, like the cover, the cover letter has to look like this. And the resume has to look like this. And I think to a certain degree, I think that's valid. But however, I think, as you know, well-informed professionals and people that are, you know, going into the workforce, I think it'll be really our opportunity as we transition to, one, normalize the fact that we're all trying to be perfect. And we don't really know what we're trying to be perfect for, in a way, maybe ourselves, maybe for others. But, you know, if we are having these conversations, why can't we have these conversations with other people? And why can't we have these conversations with, you know, people in the workplace? And, you know, really dissect the notion of perfectionism and how it potentially has a relationship with professionalism, and how it, you know, relates to our own personal identities as well. But it is really tough. And I do this as well, like, you know, I'm job searching currently. And I'll walk over to the person next to me in our center, and I'll say, “Can you please look at my resume? I want to make sure it's absolutely pixel perfect.” And, I mean, it's coming from a good place, because I want a job, I don't want to like, hand them crap. Like, I don't want to, like walk in the door and be like, “Here's my resume. It's not stunning. But here we are anyways,” you know, I think that would put me at a disadvantage in terms of a job. But why am I so attracted to being so perfect, especially with job searching, and especially looking at professional opportunities? Typically, when you get into the gig, and you're like, interviewing and you're working through that process, they just want to know who you are. They just want you to be authentic, and they want you to be yourselves. And they know hopefully, that nobody's perfect. So why are we attempting to be so perfect? If that is really not an expectation that people have of us? I don't know, the big question.
12:08 Jordan: Yeah, so Viriya, what comes to mind for you, when you hear the word perfectionism? And, and you have, you already have a job you've started working now and kind of a position and a field that you...
12:19 Michael: Go off, get the coin!
12:25 Jordan: But I know, it's also been a little bit of a struggle for you right now. So can you share a little bit about your experience there?
12:31 Viriya: Yeah, so I think for me, perfectionism kind of started out in high school. I was always a straight-A student in high school, and then did a bunch of things all at once like a normal high school student, in order to get into college. And then that kind of translated into college. So it was, like Michael said, especially with undergrad, it was all about the grades, it was all about getting those A's, not even those B's, but definitely like those A's. [Michael: Period.] And exactly, and since I'm in healthcare, the grades mean everything, like sure, like extracurricular activities are great and everything, but it's the grades that kind of get you into the higher level schools. So whether it's nursing school, PA school, med school, anything along those lines, like definitely, your GPA means everything. Like your test scores, whether it's like the GRE, MCAT, anything like that, like those grades, those numbers mean everything. So, I mean, I get the pressure with all the other majors as well, like there's definitely that pressure, but especially in healthcare, there's... There's some sort of, like, I don't know how to explain it, like there's just the pressure of being perfect. And there's competition between your peers as well. There's nothing really, like, no one supporting each other in health care. From what I've seen, in my point of view, it's definitely like just a competition of who has better grades, who has a better chance of getting into, like PA school, for example. So it definitely, for me, that idea of perfectionism kind of ended my sophomore year, actually, after failing anatomy, because everyone has failed it maybe once in their career at JMU. I know. So that was definitely like the turning point for me. And that's when I realized like, “Hey, maybe this was my calling, like, I don't need to be. I don't need to have a 100% in the class.” I definitely failed. So I was nowhere near 100%. But yeah, so, like, that perfectionism idea. It definitely took a toll on my body. My first two years of school, I lost the amount of sleep I lost. My health was declining at its point. I definitely lashed out on everyone. So it's definitely negative. And then, currently, my senior year right now. My junior year, it was kind of easy, not dealing with it, I kind of just went with the flow my junior year. But then senior year, the pressure of graduating, the pressure of needing to know what to do after I finished school in less than three weeks. Like right now I see everyone getting into PT school, or PA school, med school, like everyone has a plan. But I'm kind of like, stuck not knowing what I'm doing. Um, so I'm currently at the hospital working in a psychiatry unit. And that's where I would like to go in the future. So I kind of have a game plan. But at the same time, it's like, I'm not a PA, I'm not a nurse yet. So it's like, I don't know, my path is kind of all over the place. And I think that's kind of a good thing as well, because it shows other students like, Hey, you don't need to have a set path in life, your path can take 20,000 different directions. But if you have an end goal, you will get there eventually. So it's kind of the road that I'm on right now.
15:57 Jordan: Yeah, yeah. Viriya, you made a good point that made me think too when you both were talking about that, you know, perfectionism and this need to be perfect. And, yeah, there's definitely some thoughts that can reinforce that: what we, how we've grown up, you know, and just how, depending on where our, like high school, how competitive it was to get into the college, and so starting those habits, then and then depending on what major you're in too, definitely in the healthcare field. And, you know, there's definitely other majors to these very competitive ones. Yeah, there is that pressure. But I also think of how students come in still so young, I know that students don't want to admit that they're young, you know, but 18/19, that’s still young to know what you want to do for the rest of your life. Because I'm 31. And I'm like, “Damn, I gotta be working for 30 more years.” Like, I don't know what I want to do, you know?
16:56 Michael: Not that, not the, not the wrinkles and working 30 more years that!
17:03 Jordan: Yeah, when you say it was... I'm like, Whoa, and you know, I've been working, I've been in my, I absolutely love my job. And I've loved the field that I work in. And I've been doing it full time for six years. And when I think back on it, I'm like, “Oh, okay. This is still like a blend, you know, like, I still have so much more ahead of me.” And it is, it's like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I'm like, I don't know, like, I love what I'm doing. But I can't see myself doing this, again, yeah, until I retire in my 60s, like, so to want students to know and expect them to know exactly what they want to do at the age of 18, 19, 20 years old for the rest of their life... Like, that is a lot of pressure. And, and I also think it's not normalized too, to be like, it's okay. You don't know what you want to do. And that's where absolutely I've seen and that's, that was even my experience of: I thought I wanted, you know, one thing and then I started taking the classes and I was stressing myself and like, I failed, I failed chemistry multiple times. And I had-- it was so bad. And I, and it was such a struggle for me because I did the same thing, high school, perfectionism, top of my class, I was getting A's and all these other and I was like, “What? What is wrong? Why can’t I do this? What is wrong with me that I can't pass this class?” And, and I mean, I took it multiple times, because I was like, “No, I, this is my path.” And it took my senior year when I was like, maybe this isn’t for me. And I need to think and have that honest conversation with myself of, what have I actually really enjoyed about, you know, what I've been learning, and I was honest. And that's where I was like, you know what I loved? I love talking about sex. And you know, I shouldn't be ashamed to say that, that this is like my passion. Yeah, it's so cool. And I loved, like, maternal health and anatomy. And I still love that. And so I didn't even know that what like the job I have now I didn't know existed when I was... And I think about that too. Like how there's so many jobs and fields out there that are not really presented. And you kind of, like, fall into them. And so, yeah, I think it's just also not normalized to be like it's okay. And you don't know what you want and what are the ways you know, to still set yourself up for success outside of the, like, here are your core classes and you must get A’s for each.
19:41 Michael: Right, yeah, I think that if you don't mind, I feel like that's such a good point to bring up because a lot of students, specifically in the Career Center, a lot of them come in thinking that they're going to come in and like they'll leave with a job. You know what I'm saying? Or like they'll leave with like the golden ticket or they'll leave with some sort of information, insight as to how they can secure the bag or something of that nature, you know. And I just find that so interesting. And I mean, again, I'm not perfect, and I have fallen victim to that narrative. And working in the Career Center has really opened me up to saying, you know, in what specifically is our mission and our vision, we're not preparing you to, we're not preparing you for the rest of your life. Your experiences and the things that come along in the journey are going to prepare you. So don't feel like you have to be perfect now, because there's so much growth and development waiting for you. And your story is just starting. So, you know, I have students come in, and they're like, “I just like need a job, I need a job.” And I'm like, “Yes, keep that like, positivity and determination and like, dedication, like hold that real tight.” As we help you and give you the tools to get a job, or some sort of professional opportunity that will be right now, it doesn't have to be the job that you have for the rest of your life. And it really shouldn't be like, I don't think you should really think about it, because then that leads into that conversation of burnout. And that leads to that conversation of not feeling determined and losing passion and not knowing what you want to do. Because you set your goal, you set yourself up for success, but success that was siloed. And success, that was like, one vision. And I think that goes into this need to be perfect. And like what that means for many people. And it can just be really, really, like we're saying, it can be really detrimental for your health and your well being physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And I don't think we take enough time to think about all of those, and how our lived experiences have influenced us. I'm really glad you said that Viriya, like, even in high school, it started. I think that's so interesting, because I grew up as a theater kid. In the performing arts, you have to be perfect, you're only as good as your last performance. And I was raised in that way because I was so invested in the performing arts. So our lived experiences also have such an impact and influence on how we kind of come into ourselves and our identities, and what we, again, see ourselves to be and like and what that perfectionism looks like. So I think that's just really interesting that you brought that up, and I'm really grateful that you did.
22:46 Jordan: So I want to bring up what you just mentioned, the burnout. Real quickly, what does burnout look like? Or what have you seen? [Laughter from all.] And you know, with yourselves and among your peers?
22:59 Viriya: Oh, I know, this one pretty well, well burnout. I've had too many weeks, too many to include, that I've just like not slept, I would go days, either days without sleeping or I would sleep maybe like three to four hours max. And then when I work at the hospital, I do 12 hour night shifts. So that already screws up my body itself. So basically, sleep is gone. Eating is gone. And lashing out at family members and friends was definitely like my biggest sign because I'm usually like one of the nicest people ever. And I'm pretty-- I'm sassy to begin with, but I'm pretty, like nice and calm. But that lashing out was consistent. And I was just very, very mean and rude. And that's when I realized I needed to take a step back. Yeah.
23:53 Michael: Yeah, burnout for me, I think it has, again, it's manifested in a couple of ways. But I think in a general sense, it's just the lack of desire to follow through or to succeed or to meet those goals. And, one, I think we can normalize burnout. I think I am specifically, as a higher education administrator and professional, I'm transitioning into a field that even more recently, we've seen a lot of burnout. And we've seen that burnout because of COVID. And because, mama, we've been stretched thin, everybody's been stretched thin especially. And we don't do a good job of talking about that. We don't do a good job of saying that. And we just say alright, we just gotta keep going. You know, and that just like, you know, you can just start to wither like a flower. Like the petals just kind of fall off. And it's just really interesting because, you know, we talk a big game, I think, and sometimes we don't necessarily take the time to, like, really care and, you know, meet the needs for ourselves. And we're all in helping professions, for the most part, like I would consider healthcare to be a helping profession, and higher education, you know, we're serving students, and we're helping students with their overall success. So part of helping is knowing how to help yourself. And we don't, we do not, like talk about that. And we don't, you know, provide the space for us to give ourselves grace, one, and two, explore what burnout could look like, and how we need to potentially navigate it, in order to exist in a way that is healthy, and like meaningful and kind of maybe even resists that perfectionism. Because I think it can be a way to, you know, get you motivated, and to like, amp you up and say, like, “Oh, yeah, like, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to make it and I'm going to make it count.” However, on the flip side of that coin, it can be detrimental, because what are you sacrificing to get that one step further, or to, like, get that goal achieved in a way? So burnout, I think, again, I think it manifests differently for a lot of people based on like, their profession, based on what they are, where they're currently at, and their lives. But it's something again, it's kind of internal. And I think it starts internally and then can show itself in physical ways. And then that's what, and then that's, you know, when we're like, “Whoa, eek. I have no friends, I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating, I'm a mess. Like you're left, feeling defeated. And, you know, you're feeling destructive. And then the bigger part of that, too, is how do you get yourself out of that? If you have not given yourself the opportunity to cope, and to process and to reflect, because when you're in that hole, like, get dug it yourself, so how, you know, it's really tough to get yourself out of the hole, too.
27:26 Jordan: Yeah. Well, I want to, I want to end kind of with that, for both of you all to share. So what advice would you give our listeners, and especially thinking about you all, both graduating and leaving here, you know, think back to your undergrad self, and maybe some of our more underclassmen, students here at JMU? What advice would you give to help? When it comes to burnout, to help prevent burnout, or to, you know, just advice and in kind of combating this sense of perfectionism and finding the balance of, you know, doing well, and having those goals and striving for them and the importance of that, but also, where's the line to, you know, preventing burnout?
28:19 Viriya: Hmm. I think I would tell my younger self to breathe more. I think that was my God. Yeah, there were just so many times where I literally did not breathe. Like I didn't have room to do anything in my life. I said no to so many activities, that now as a senior who didn't really have a senior year like I've been home all year. Like I wish I said yes to more activities. Instead of studying to get that A in a class, like sure. I just wish I had more time to breathe more time to literally lay down and nap and not worry about school for once. Those are the moments that I pretty much regret the most just not enjoying myself. My four years of school. Pretty much.
29:12 Michael: Sure. Yeah. Yeah that’s a really interesting question. And I could probably tell myself, I could tell myself so many things. Good god-- I would say the Five G's: Good God Get a Grip Girl, but not really. What was that?
29:35 Jordan: I love that.
29:36 Michael: Yes. The Five G's. Listen, that is from the infamous television show RuPaul’s Drag Race. I believe the drag queen Latrice Royale coined that. Good God Get a Grip Girl. I think of the flip side of that coin too. In my undergrad specifically, I was a yes man. I was saying yes to like absolutely everything. And that really, that really got me, you know, that really nipped me in the butt at a certain point. And I remember the exact moment that it did. And I remember like, and this is a whole nother story for another day, but like, I essentially left FGCU for a year. And then I came back and then I felt replenished. And but I unfortunately, like got myself to that point, because I was getting involved in everything. And I was doing this and I was doing that. And I was saying yes to everything. And I wasn't checking in with myself and saying, “Well, what do all of these things mean to me,” you know, I think of making meaning of your experiences as really, really important. And really assessing what you are really passionate about, is vital to your experience, and potentially, how that is going to play out. But also when you like walk across that stage, I think about this moment, all the time. And I thought about it when I was in my undergrad, and I'm thinking about it now. Like just imagine walking across the stage at graduation. And, you know, thinking to yourself, like I did that, you know, I made that possible. And I have no regrets. And I did do that in my undergrad and I walked across the stage. And I said I really have no regrets. But I think there were some things that I definitely not necessarily regret, but maybe would have improved or potentially would have thought more about and been more intentional and been more thoughtful. So I think, really trying to find that balance between what you think you want to do, and what you know, that you're really passionate about, and that you really think is gonna set yourself up for success.
31:46 Jordan: Yeah, I was getting a little emotional there. Like I, besides like, just thinking, yeah, I mean, for you both. And all students, like, this past year just has been so tough on so many people. And not only is a senior year difficult in any year in college, really, but to put COVID on there. And, and I think so much of that is yeah, that grace that isn't always given to ourselves, you know, and it can feel selfish to want to take care of ourselves first, we can easily give grace to others, but not as easily give grace to ourselves, you know, and that was something even myself to to adopt this year was, again, I'm still practicing self care, it doesn't… Just because you get out of school doesn't mean, I always said that. Like, once you leave college life doesn't get any easier. But it gets better. You know, it, like, things change. But you know, it's nice not having all of the assignments and papers and deadlines to work about. Like, hopefully, you're doing something you actually are enjoying. And so, it shifts to like, sure I got a lot to keep up with in life and moving into adulthood. But yeah, you've kind of got that, like…
33:07 Michael: Yeah, there's just so much, there's just so much, you know, I think we're very destination-oriented. And I got this piece of advice when I was in high school, from like my band teacher who I, gosh, I just like love and appreciate so much after this. And like it was even reinforced by one of my mentors in my undergrad. But life is truly a journey. And it's just not a destination. I think if we're very like destination-oriented, it's like we're looking towards one thing. And we're not one thing, we're many things and our identity is so fluid and all these aspects of our lives are so fluid, and there's just so much room and growth and like chance for you to come into yourself. And to really figure out like, again, what you're really passionate about and what really makes you happy and what really works together to create that balance.
34:02 Jordan: Yeah, I do hear students say they're like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And I realized that my response typically probably isn't very calming, but I always like, “Isn't that exciting? Like, isn't that exciting? You don't know, like, think about it in one year, you don't know where you're going to be like you so much could happen in this time when people are looking for jobs.” And I know, and I know. And I'm like, I know, it's very like what are you- “What are you talking about? Like, I have to know, I need a job,” you know, but I'm like, No, you so much it's going to happen and continue to happen in a fast time. Like, I just remember when I got my first job and I moved to a different state and I was able to look back like, “Whoa, holy cow six months ago, I was you know, here doing this and in school and now look at me,” and like and then three years later, “Look, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this and and so much happens and so I'm like it's so exciting.” You know, try to get students to think of that way of, you're going to be fine. And like, it's gonna, you're gonna be able to look back and be like, wow, yeah, I did do a lot or you know, like, is there like these big milestones really start to happen. And that's something I hope is exciting for students. But you both are so wonderful. [Viriya: Thank you!] And I have no doubt that you will be successful in finding what you can and continuing to learn and taking care of yourself and finding your happiness. And, and yeah, I'm, I'm so sorry that this past year, and Viriya like you said, your senior year, anything what anyone would want. I'm so sorry that it's had to be the part of this chapter of your life, but I think you've still been able to make, make moments out of it.
35:53 Viriya: I was gonna say there's been really good moments throughout this past year, despite not being at JMU. [Michael: Period.]
36:00 Jordan: Yeah. Well, thank you both, again, so much for being on here being on the final episode this year. And this podcast itself, right. This was one of our COVID bonuses, and it's been so fun. So I really appreciate both of y'all sharing your vulnerability and what it's been like for you perfectionism and burnout and being real, you know?
36:23 Michael: Yeah. [Viriya: Yeah.]
36:24 Jordan: I think that’s what’s important. So, [Michael: Yeah.] thank you!
36:28 Michael: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
[Musical Interlude]
36:34 Aj: Wow, that was a great episode from Michael and Viriya.
36:38 Jordan: Yeah, AJ, I'm curious. So I’ll ask you as well, what advice would you give your undergrad self when it comes to the need to be perfect, but balancing self care and preventing burnout? You've had six years of higher ed under your belt now, too. So what are your thoughts on it?
36:55 Aj: I would say the biggest piece of advice I would give myself personally as an undergrad is to learn how to say no to things, not because I don't want to do them, but out of just have a base level of respect for myself and respect for, kind of, my energy levels and my time. I didn't really learn it until graduate school. So I went through all of undergrad, kind of just saying yes to everything and doing lots of things. But you can't function as a human and do all the things you need to do. If you're tired, stressed, you know, underslept, overstressed. And so kind of making sure that I'm doing the right amount to maintain myself as a human being, like a body and a mind, and learning how to say no to kind of maintain that, that would be my biggest piece of advice.
37:52 Jordan: Well, thank you for sharing that too. And I agree, you know, and Michael had said that to like the-- it's difficult to say no, and learning to say no can really be beneficial. Well, Dukes, that's it for this year. Whether you've listened to all or some of the episodes or this is even just your first one. I want to thank you for sharing your time to listen and learn about so many topics dear to my heart personally. This podcast was able to bring me a lot of excitement during this past year. And I'm so fortunate to have had the support from colleagues and students to keep this going every week. We will be back with regular scheduled episodes in the fall once we are settled into our new home at… [Drum roll.] UREC! So a little drum roll there, yes, at UREC. So we're so excited to be joining the UREC team and all of the opportunities we're going to have to continue providing health and wellbeing education programs to JMU students. And AJ again, thank you for being with me this whole year again, behind the scenes helping with editing and listening to all of my my restarts and you know having to redo and take out some um’s and being patient because there's definitely some work that goes into making these podcasts but it's been... It has been a fun time and something I've always wanted to do. So I couldn't have done it without you.
39:20 Aj: Absolutely.
39:22 Jordan: You've helped so much there. And so for everyone listening, remember be well, Dukes.